After 2020, the Anti-Gunners’ Rely-on-the-Police Argument is Null and Void

minneapolis third precinct riots

Rioters outside of a burning liquor store near the Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct, Thursday, May 28, 2020 (AP Photo/John Minchillo)

Proponents of the right to private gun possession have long noted that the police are not always available to be of assistance, certainly not in sufficient time to prevent criminal action. A commonly-heard refrain is “when seconds count, the police are minutes away.” During recent protests in the wake of George Floyd’s death, calls have arisen to “defund the police,” which can mean anything from small cuts in funding to something close to abolishing the police altogether. Already, as of this writing in early September 2020, some cities have substantially cut police funding.

Mainstream liberals, who had previously been strongly on the “rely exclusively on police and not on a personal firearm for protection” bandwagon, seem unwilling or unable to defend the importance, competence, and efficacy of the police in the face of allegations of institutional racism against American law enforcement. In short, the argument that Americans should trust the police to protect them, already greeted with skepticism if not derision in gun-rights circles, has been undermined further by the anti-police movement.

In short, conservative and libertarian guns rights proponents have long asserted that the existence of professional police forces is an inadequate substitute for a right to armed self-defense, and progressive advocates of gun control and even confiscation have, to a significant extent, now joined the anti-police bandwagon. Given that reality, there does not seem to be much of a constituency left for the argument that the right to armed selfdefense has been rendered anachronistic by the development of professional law enforcement.

Perhaps even more significant, the events of Summer 2020 demonstrate that putting aside how one feels about the police from a theoretical or philosophical approach, law enforcement in fact often cannot be relied up to “do their jobs” in the face of significant disorder. As this article has shown, in cities around the country police forces failed to preserve law and order.

In some cases they were ordered to stand down by elected officials who sympathized with the law breakers; in some cases because in an environment dominated by anti-police agitators, police supervisors thought it unwise to ratchet up police presence and activity; and in some cases, grassroots police officers, frustrated with the hostility shown by the public, quit, either permanently, or, as with the “Blue flu,” temporarily refused to do their jobs.

In constitutional law terms, all this supports the notion that the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense purposes should be extended beyond the home. During this past Summer’s unrest, many Americans have either made the choice to defend themselves, or had that choice forced upon them when attacked with no viable retreat possible. Try telling them that the right to bear arms in self-defense is obsolete thanks to the police.

– David E. Bernstein in The Right to Armed Self-Defense in the Light of Law Enforcement Abdication

comments

  1. avatar Ron says:

    “In short, conservative and libertarian guns rights proponents have long asserted that the existence of professional police forces is an inadequate substitute for a right to armed self-defense.”

    This is a great point, and reminded me of something I think should be elaborated on.

    How many times this year have all of us heard something like the following phrases:

    “With the world being so crazy now…” or “When things get back to normal”…

    I touched on this on another post, but I’m here going on about all this today to explain to you that the world is never going “back to normal“ and the worlds “craziness” is simply it returning to it’s pre UN/Cold War state. Now you’re saying: “What does this have to do with police?”

    The above quote in the article somewhat touches on this. The existence of modern police forces, and indeed modern emergency services as a whole, is not the norm in history. In fact, it is an aberration. The last 70 years and roughly 3 generations of people, have no idea what it’s like to live without them. And they are now going away. The world is returning to a state which was more violent, chaotic, and unpredictable, which for the world is in fact normal. The recent stability of society is fleeting.

    This is taking place globally. We will also see a return of Empire. Regardless of who’s in charge in America, the era of global American hegemony is ending. The “world police force” is leaving too. In the vacuum left behind, regional empires will emerge to reclaim former land and resources. America itself, if we don’t Balkanize or collapse from communism, in short, if the left is defeated and America survives, will resemble America closer to pre world war status.

    TL;DR: The importance of what I’m saying is you need to be self sufficient. The national and global system we’ve become dependent on is ending. It might not be the “end of world”, but it probably is the end of modern comfort.

    1. avatar Dude says:

      Is it weird that there isn’t much talk about the insane debt we’ve added this year? The dems aren’t really using this as an attack point because they wanted and want even more spending. We should have protected the vulnerable and implemented safety guidelines without shutting the economy down. I don’t see how we recover from this. The answer is definitely NOT bigger government with more control over our lives. Government is the problem, not the answer.

      1. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

        Not weird at all when most of both parties want to spend like a private fresh from basic/deployment near a car dealership. Limited government is a sadly underrepresented attitude at all levels.

      2. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

        You can’t get elected if you don’t promise free money to many interests. The voters also won’t vote for some one who doesn’t massively over promise.

      3. avatar John Bryan says:

        As long as government debt remains a fungible “asset” we’ll be fine – or at least as fine as the Masters of the Universe who run our public/private financial system will allow us to be. If/when the bottom drops out of THAT market then we’ll have a problem – government seizure of private retirement savings/investment funds being the most destructive to private wealth. Hopefully we’ll be self-sufficient enough to survive on the scraps handed out by Uncle Sugar from whatever is left over from our stolen 401k funds…and if you think this is tinfoil hat stuff you haven’t studied how that great “hero” of the ironic Left Alexander Hamilton cooked the books to payoff the bond holders who funded the Revolution, how someone as reprehensible as A. H. has been reformed into a Lefty icon is mind boggling.

        1. avatar Dude says:

          It seems like we’re fine as long as there’s sufficient confidence in the U.S. dollar. I’d rather just be fine, without the “as long as” part. Whenever we face a crisis, it’s an excuse for the people in charge to blow a ton of money, with little to show for it. Somehow, every time that happens, the middle class comes out worse than before.

        2. avatar Joseph Quixote says:

          When Spain started defaulting is when their long decline truly began….

        3. avatar Ing says:

          If Hamilton truly was reprehensible, then it was inevitable that he’d become an icon to progressive liberals. What might be puzzling, in that case, is how he became an icon to the rest of this country.

        4. avatar Craig in IA says:

          “…how someone as reprehensible as A. H. (Alexander Hamilton) has been reformed into a Lefty icon is mind boggling.”

          Seriously?

          Really?

          All that was necessary for the Left to jump onboard was to write a Broadway musical that would purport to be “historical” (vs hysterical) and demand that the entire cast be black. Then require the entire entertainment critique community laud it as at least on par with “The Second Coming”.

          Who in the Left could argue with that?

    2. avatar Biatec says:

      I hope things go back to pre world war status. We would be much more free.

      1. avatar Void says:

        Gold standard, central banking new(again) and controversial, most of the country has gun laws similar to Vermont from a decade ago (next to none) at the state level and minimal at the federal. I am sure there are some flaws but I am having a difficult time finding them without going to racial/religious/reproductive hot buttons that probably could have been resolved without a tenth of the drama

        1. avatar Pragmatic says:

          Lead standard

          Gold is too expensive to reload with.
          (and lead is more effective)

        2. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          Silver bullets are for werewolves.

          I hear gold bullets are effective against vampire squids.

        3. avatar PminFl says:

          My inner cynic says that we’d be strapped with all of the crappy debt and over regulation but without the bread of freedom. Can’t even make a shit sandwich out of that !

      2. avatar Ing says:

        Looking through the Wikipedia bios of the Rockefellers and some related people yesterday, I was struck by how many of those members of high society were the first or second directors to head up some new federal agency in the 1950s and early 60s.

        Flush with money and global power, the government and the “better sort” set about meddling in every aspect of American life; they were so sure everything would work better when managed by “experts” from the top down. Still are.

        It’s a good-news-is-the-bad-news scenario, as it’s going to be very painful and disruptive for most of us if it happens, but the COVID overspending plus the economic shutdown *might* finally destabilize and deflate that bloated apparatus and get us closer to the pre-WWII period when this nation was more free. Maybe.

    3. avatar LifeSavor says:

      Ron,

      I am more hopeful. We can restore our civil society by restoring our education system:

      Break the teachers union.
      Ensure we are teaching accurate, truthful, and complete US history (the good and the ugly).
      Ensure we are teaching the content and importance of the US Constitution. Not just one course, but throughout the curriculum.
      Specifically focus on freedom of speech and respect for others.
      Teach the importance of family, whether biological, adopted, or social.
      Allow prayer in the schools.
      Enforce discipline in the schools.

      Yes, to make this happen, we will need a Constitutional-based Judiciary. We will need a 2nd term for Trump, and we will need patriot majorities in the House and Senate. We’ll likely also need a Trump-like President for 8 years following Trump. We can make this happen. We will make all of this happen.

      1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

        “Break the teachers union.”

        The only way to do that with certainty is for more young conservatives to be public school teachers, where they can rise through the ranks and impact what is being taught…

        1. avatar strych9 says:

          Nah. Merit-based pay will do it all by itself.

          The truth is that teachers really don’t get paid well which means that many of them are a self-selected group of people who “get a benefit” from the job. IOW, there are a decent percentage that get warm feelz from engaging in manipulation as part of their “compensation”.

          It’s a known and studied problem that few are willing to discuss.

        2. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

          For most of the country yes teachers probably are underpaid and do not attract the best options. For NY they are overpaid (60-80k median depending on the county) and teach only the best common core marxism. Home learning is the best thing that happened to public school up here if only because some parents are finally starting to realize how screwy the curriculum is.

      2. avatar Umm . . . says:

        LifeSavor,
        I’m with you almost across the board: Today’s cradle-to-grave sense of entitlement to respect is as toxic as entitlement to others’ tax dollars. EVERYTHING worthwhile in this life is EARNED.

        Far better to teach respectability – a quality in short supply these days, most particularly among those constantly demanding “respeck” – and respect for others only in direct proportion to their respectable qualities and choices.

        1. avatar LifeSavor says:

          Umm,

          Hat tip to you!

        2. avatar Umm . . . says:

          Thanks!

      3. avatar The SGM says:

        your comment is very useful except that you left out the “parents” and their responsibility toward their children and society. Teachers can add to or supplement and enforce what is taught in the home, manners, respect , truthfulness, and basics of how to get along with others. It is a two way street and the teachers are not the disciplinarians the parents are.

    4. avatar possum says:

      By golly I’m working on being self sufficient, and now that the weather’s cooling off the food in the dumpster’s last longer. Long live freedom.

      1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

        If you burrow deep enough in the trash it’s nice and warm in there…

        But you best git when you hear the backup alarm of the garbage truck, or it will *splitch* you dead… 😉

    5. avatar Craig in IA says:

      Your observations are well-taken. Most of the blame for this decline must rest on the negligence of teaching of true American History by nearly all of the government-funded institutions over the past 30 years or so. To accept these “comforts” without understanding how we “got here” is to allow them to slip away, slowly at first, but as things approach the “cliff” the decline becomes much more rapid and inescapable.

      It’s not really anything unique to the US- every great civilization has experienced similar problems when they got fat, lazy, and felt entitled and oblivious to the rest of the world and its condition. While “we” have the most modern conveniences ever conceived the majority of the world’s population still lives under 7th Century conditions and dictators and monarchies.

      It’s taken years for the US to get here, it would take about the same amount of time or more to battle back up stream. It would be a worthy cause, however but it would take more than sitting around tapping on a keyboard to accomplish and I doubt there are enough free men tleft o get involved any longer.

  2. avatar LifeSavor says:

    I am very confused. The left says calling the police is ‘racist’, but that we do not need guns because we can call the police. Does that mean the left is saying we need to be racist for our own protection?

    1. avatar Dude says:

      Well they do tend to be pretty racist, so…

    2. avatar KJ says:

      Just like Oxyclean, wait: there’s more!

      The police are racist, incompetent, undertrained, over-funded and super-dooper violent, so you shouldn’t call them either! Yes, that’s right. If you call the police on an attacker, who is mostly-non-violent after all, you’re practically dooming them to death. And why would you do that? Are YOU racist also?

      So to recap: no guns, and don’t call the police on anyone, ever.

    3. avatar Ing says:

      That’s not what they’re saying, but it is the only rational conclusion.

      They’re pushing anti-racism in the most racist and racism-enabling way possible. As always, the “progressive” left has an uncanny ability to get everything that matters completely backwards.

  3. avatar James Campbell says:

    The “Police are NOT coming” reality hit home for me (and the ex-wife) around 25 years ago.
    I purchased a home and moved (with my then wife and first son) to NE St Petersburg Florida, it was shortly before the St Pete riots of ’96.
    I had a Beretta 92 FS at the time, and the wife didn’t like guns AT ALL.
    I was working a project with a HARD deadline, a few 16hr days each week was normal.
    I saw the riots on the news, and ALL LEOs were called to duty, ALL were staged at Tropicana Field (about 35 blocks south of my family).
    I called the sleeping wife, and had her turn the news on. Asked her if she really though LE would respond to an ADT alarm or 911 call while containing a riot.
    She began learning how to operate and shoot the 92 that next weekend!
    She owns several firearms now. 🤣

    1. avatar possum says:

      My sister in law( now deceased) had gotten tired of the late arrival of L.E.O. so the next time she dialed 911 she reported a fire at her residence. The response time was better and even had police accompaniment However she fell in a bucket of shit for that, and was threatened with jail.

  4. avatar jwm says:

    After 2020 all the lefts arguments are null and void.

    1. avatar Dude says:

      They debunked their own conspiracy theory that Trump’s tax returns would prove that he’s working for the Russians. Plus, there’s that whole four year history thing where the U.S. hasn’t exactly been putting Russia first. Yet, dem pols and media still fear monger on the Russia Conspiracy Theory. They must think their voters are pretty dumb.

      1. avatar Theguywiththegun says:

        Think of someone with average intelligence. Now know that about half of the population is dumb than that person. The US is crawling with non-critical thinking morons.

        1. avatar possum says:

          Half the population is dumb than that person. ???

        2. avatar Ing says:

          Which half I us in?
          😀

      2. avatar John Bryan says:

        Anytime you start musing on the intelligence level of the “average” American just hop in/on your vehicle and go for a drive in any mixed exurban/suburban area. Especially one with a couple 4-way stop intersections and an on-ramp to a divided highway – if handling the mundane task of driving is a challenge (as it appears to be) do you really expect high-level, abstract thought and fact-based problem solving?

  5. avatar Ragnar says:

    After 2020, it will be 2021.

    People will keep doing what they have always been doing. A very small percentage might change.

    1. avatar Ing says:

      That is truly depressing.

  6. avatar Specialist38 says:

    Puh-lease.

    You would to believe the left care about contradictions in logic.

    They hate the police …… and you ….welcome to animal farm.

  7. avatar strych9 says:

    What 2020 has done generally is provide a heap of evidence that politican partisans can’t be trusted about anything serious or remotely complicated.

    Defund the police is just another version of “TwO weEks tO FlaTtEn tHe cUrVe!”. Bumper sticker sloganeering for a massive power grab that sounds good to morons and the uneducurve!

    Just wait til the bill comes due. Then you’ll hear some howling.

    1. avatar strych9 says:

      *political partisans

      1. avatar strych9 says:

        and “uneducated” not undercurve!. Fuck this broken screen.

        1. avatar possum says:

          I thought you were talking about bra’s

        2. avatar Ing says:

          You actually said “uneducurve,” which is even better. Very descriptive. If you could graph all the harmful and stupid shit the people in charge have done in 2020, it would form an uneducurve.

  8. avatar Shire-man says:

    Lol. As if there’s any value on arguing consistency or looking for logic among a group proving they aren’t racist by supporting a segregationist and klansman eulogiser for POTUS.

  9. avatar possum says:

    A weakened Law Enforcement would leave the Military to enforce the law. Would it not? If that is true then it may not be the boyZ in blue taking our gunms. Thuds go downtown ✈

    1. avatar Southern Cross says:

      Democrats will fill the law enforcement gap with ANTIFA and BLM staffed “political police”.

  10. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    As I have before. I like the police, and libertarians don’t believe in private property rights. They don’t like or support law enforcement. Fine. That’s their choice. But they don’t support property owners killing if necessary to protect their property. Nor do they support a neighbor or good Samaritan protecting property that is not theirs.

    I don’t believe the Libertarians Liberals or the Left support the concept of the Rule Of Law. Libertarians like strych9 don’t support shooting looters. He and others like him refuse to use deadly force to stop it.

    “One Author’s Controversial View: ‘In Defense Of Looting’
    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178/one-authors-argument-in-defense-of-looting

    Since Libertarians like Mr. Serpent don’t support Joe Horn shooting burglars next door. Who also crossed his property line. I know they don’t support this black man defending property that he didn’t own. Now the questions is. Do they support Kyler Rittenhouse who was defending property he didn’t own? Or how about groups of home owners who come together to guard an entire neighborhood?

    “Ex Swat officer protecting a strip center from looters. “I WILL CUTCHO ASS IN HALF” video 6 min long

    1. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

      Crack smoking ho.

      All the Libertarians I know support private property, and the use of force to defend it. Private property is one of the core tenets of both libertarian theory and Austrian School economics. Technically I’m an Anarcho-Capitalist, a free market anarchist. But that’s just the extreme right end of the libertarian spectrum.

      I believe we should do away with law enforcement and the taxes that support them, and many other government functions and their associated taxes as well. Then you can use your own money to defend your own property or hire private security to do so as you see fit. However as long as I am being compelled by threat of government force to pay for law enforcement, I damn well do want them to do their jobs and protect property and arrest violent criminals, including using force and deadly force as necessary.

      What I do not want is the situation we have now; We are all taxed for law enforcement, law enforcement will shut down your church and business, law enforcement will allow rioters to loot and burn your church or business, and law enforcement will arrest and prosecute you if you defend your church or business. If that is the law enforcement that Republicans want then by all means count me out.

      1. avatar possum says:

        An acquaintance of criminal persuasion once said” Them cops are bigger then the mob.”

      2. avatar Dude says:

        “We are all taxed for law enforcement, law enforcement will shut down your church and business, law enforcement will allow rioters to loot and burn your church or business, and law enforcement will arrest and prosecute you if you defend your church or business”

        Law enforcement isn’t coming up with those crazy rules. Democrat mayors and governors have proven themselves to be the real wannabe authoritarians. We’ll see if they continue to be elected. If so, I’d look into moving if I lived in one of those areas.

      3. avatar Chris T in KY says:

        “If that is the law enforcement that Republicans want then by all means count me out.”

        I Have news for you. The cities who have ordered the cops to stand down are Democrat run. Not Republican. The rioting, looting and arson. Are all happening in Democrat run cities and Democrat run states.

        In fact the “Law and Order Republicans” have called for the cops and national guard to start “cracking the heads” of these criminals. As a self described anarcho capitalist/ Libertarian,, you can blame the Republicans. Just like the Democrats’ are blaming the Republicans.

        And this is why I put you together with the three L’s. Libertarians Liberals and the Left. Because none of you want to hold the people in office, Democrat’s, responsible. President Trump is now nationalizing the local city police in Portland. Anyone now arrested is facing federal charges. Its now out of the hands of the local DA’s, who have refused to prosecute rioters.

        Do you support the President on his actions? Or do you still blame those “nasty republicans”????

    2. avatar strych9 says:

      “Libertarians like strych9 don’t support shooting looters. He and others like him refuse to use deadly force to stop it.”

      On or about what date did you turn into Don Lemon?

      1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

        fyi

        https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/minnesota-freedom-fighters-armed-black-men-protecting-their-community/

        @Chris

        “I’ve never once said there’s a problem with shooting “rioters and looters”.

        I said there’s a problem with shooting people
        solely over property crimes and I’ve said that very specifically that use of violence during a crime creates a legitimate claim for self defense on the part of the victim. I have argued against those who have said they want to shoot “thieves”.

        A theif specifically avoids violence and preys on others via stealth.

        Looters are a class robber, that is, someone who commits the action of taking property unlawfully from a person or place by force or threat of force. Which is to say that robbers are, by definition, violent and confrontational.

        Words have meanings. I use the actual definitions and I don’t conflate them.

        You don’t get to shoot the guy who takes some beer from your open garage. But if he comes in and threatens you over the beer, blast away.”

        So my open garage. Blasted open by rioters or a hurricane. I can’t shoot him for stealing my beer, or my TV, or my Food, or anything else correct???

        1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

          btw
          People steal all the time and never threaten or use force. So you can’t use force to stop them correct???
          But its ok for the government to kill you. To stop you from stealing government property correct???

          “Panama City Looter Shot And Killed While Trying to Steal a Police Car”

          https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/panama-city-looter-shot-and-killed-while-trying-to-steal-a-police-car/

          A Horse (your 19th century transportation) thief was hanged on sight for a very good reason in this country. Now people with money tell me I can’t kill if necessary to protect my car.

          If you cross over the blue line on a Navy or Airforce airfield the MPs will shoot you on sight. Do you think that’s wrong???
          The guards are assuming you are going to do harm to government property. Civilian neighborhood armed patrols are prepared to do the same thing. Is that ok with you???

        2. avatar strych9 says:

          Well, if you were paying attention you’d realize that I gave you another option here because I’ve said repeatedly

          You can confront him, tell him to stop and use whatever force is necessary to do so. If he violently resists that’s on him, it falls under that “threatens you” bit. I would think this is obvious. Like… glaringly obvious. So obvious it nearly outshines the sun levels of… obvious.

          But no, you can’t just poke a gun out the window and drop his ass as he scurries down your driveway with your precious. There needs to be an actual immediate threat to life or limb involving you or another person before you can just start busting shots at this person.

          He got in and out without your notice? Well, then he’s a thief by definition and it doesn’t matter because he outfoxed your ass in the first place anyway. Next time pay more attention to the shit you seem to think is worth his life (or yours).

          Yeah, life’s hard and being a decent human being in trying circumstances is even harder.

        3. avatar Chris T in KY says:

          “He got in and out without your notice? Well, then he’s a thief by definition and it doesn’t matter because he outfoxed your ass in the first place anyway. Next time pay more attention to the shit you seem to think is worth his life (or yours).”

          I’m glad to have these conversations about Libertarianism. Or what you say it is. Because I don’t know. I don’t see the elected Libertarian’s or the ones running for office, saying the same things you are saying. Perhaps no one is asking them. Like I’m asking you???

          I would really like to see a Libertarian who is running, to make the same statement you just made. And see how the rest of the public reacts. Especially those in burned out Minneapolis, or Atlanta or Kenosha, etc, etc.

        4. avatar strych9 says:

          Yeah, because arson and theft are the same thing. *eyeroll*.

          Just like theft, burglary and robbery are all exactly identical but we’ve chosen three completely different words with different roots to them because why not make English as confusing as we can, amirite? Oh, and we also came up with three different criminal code definitions, with separate penalties, just to make the legal code as irritatingly complex as possible. There couldn’t be any other reason.

          Maybe you should look at those Rooftop Koreans. Strange how they didn’t kill anyone because they didn’t have to. I mean, really weird, huh? In fact, they didn’t even shoot anyone.

          Obviously they’re not only on roofs but also Magic Koreans. Obviously because there is literally no alternative to explain the lack of death dealing they failed to engage in.

        5. avatar Chris T in KY says:

          What is the purpose of bring up the Roof Koreans in this context? No one violated their property lines, and no one stole from them. Which is what I’m talking about. Because they used their guns. Sadly you can’t use your guns in many states in the ways the roof Koreans did. People use guns are the time. And never fire a shot.

          Interesting how they openly displayed their weapons and weren’t arrested. But a home owner in Oregon I believe, gets arrested for displaying his firearm from INSIDE his own house. With a mob outside of his front door standing on his property. Do you have an opinion on that? Or do I need to check the TTAG archive to see what you said?

          I wonder what the Libertarian’s running for office have to say about that case? They seem pretty quiet.

        6. avatar strych9 says:

          The case of the guy getting arrested for having a shotgun in his own house was a fucking travesty, obviously. It was 100% politically motivated. The man committed zero crimes. Now, the crowd I don’t know about, the video I saw they were all on public property but that doesn’t mean they didn’t enter his property and there may be video of that which I haven’t seen. Those people should be charged with criminal trespass if the owner wishes to press such charges.

          While we’re at it do I need to condemn the Holocaust, Holodomor and Mao’s Great Leap Forward just to be on the record as being against politically motivated mass murder?

          Also, don’t go moving the goal posts, you’re smarter than that. You said “He and others like him refuse to use deadly force to stop it.” The Rooftop Koreans very explicitly didn’t use deadly force.

          I have never once said you couldn’t stand out and guard things. Not fucking once. I’ve said you don’t get to simply haul off shoot people for simple theft because it presents no threat of death or bodily harm to anyone. I’ve further said that you are within the bounds of the law, and ethics, to attempt to stop such behavior but that the criminal has to cross the threat threshold before you can shoot at them.

          Further, your previous examples are red herrings. The extrajudicial hanging horse thieves or accused horse thieves without a trial was considered murder and people were tried, found guilty, sentenced and sent to the gallows for participation in such events. These were called, even in the pa p e r

          And on top of that not every case of trespass on a military base will get you shot. It depends on what the person is doing and where. People get arrested for this with no shots fired way more often than the MPs open fire.

        7. avatar strych9 says:

          The case of the guy getting arrested for having a shotgun in his own house was a fucking travesty, obviously. It was 100% politically motivated.

          That man committed zero crimes and was well within his legal and human rights.

          Now, the crowd I don’t know about, the video I saw they were all on public property but that doesn’t mean they didn’t enter his property and there may be video of that which I haven’t seen. If they did enter his property without permission then those people should be charged with criminal trespass if the owner wishes to press such charges and with whatever else may be appropriate.

          While we’re at it do I need to condemn the Holocaust, Holodomor and Mao’s Great Leap Forward just to be on the record as being against politically motivated mass murder? Since apparently if I don’t say this explicitly then I’m apparently for such behavior?

          Also, don’t go moving the goal posts, you’re smarter than that. You said “He and others like him refuse to use deadly force to stop it.” The Rooftop Koreans didn’t use deadly force which is the point here.

          I have never once said you couldn’t stand out and guard things. Not fucking once. I’ve said you don’t get to simply haul off shoot people for simple theft because it presents no threat of death or bodily harm to anyone. I’ve further said that you are within the bounds of the law, and ethics, to attempt to stop such behavior but that the criminal has to cross the threat threshold before you can shoot at them. So if you attempt to stop them while you yourself are within the law, and the bounds of ethical action, and they do something that places you in reasonable fear for your life, safety or that of another you are then free to use the necessary force to deal with the situation.

          Further, your previous examples are red herrings. The extrajudicial hanging horse thieves or accused horse thieves without a trial was considered murder and people were tried, found guilty, sentenced and sent to the gallows for participation in such events. These were referred to, even in the paper and legal documents of the time, as “lynchings”. Others have pointed this out here before and they were right about it.

          And on top of that not every case of trespass on a military base will get you shot. It depends on what the person is doing and where. People get arrested for this with no shots fired way more often than the MPs open fire.

    3. avatar Unrepentant Libertarian says:

      Chris T, quit confusing Libertarians with Liberals and Leftists. They are NOT one and the same. The true Libertarian philosophy is more in tune with what the Tea Party preached (not that the MSN would tell the truth about that). Self responsibility and freedom for one self as long as it does not interfere with others. Those that believe otherwise are LINOs.

      1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

        If Libertarians say they offer an alternative? Then they can publicly state what their alternative is to shooting rioters, looters, and arsonists??? They have yet to address the current issues. Except drug legalization. Their number one topic. Not the riots. They are not number one for the Libertarian candidates.

        I believe Libertarians are incapable of using or supporting state violence to stop criminals. Now as Steven Crowder says, “change my mind”.

  11. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    Leftards being tards believe in many things not involving reality, fairy tales being one of them and feelz sell them on the warped ideas and that’s when reality smacks them and their fairy tale.

  12. avatar Ralph says:

    Unless you live above a Dunkin’, the police cannot arrive in time to save you no matter how hard they try. My local cop shop is less than five minutes away. That sounds great, but how much damage can a BG or two do in two, three or four minutes? It took less time to massacre the entire Clutter family.

    I prefer to be my own security. At least I know that I’ll be there in an emergency.

    1. avatar jwm says:

      I used to live right down the street from the cop shop. But except for shift changes there were never any cops in the shop. Plenty of non sworn folks but rarely a cop.

      Police response in our area was always 15-20 minutes for a 911 call.

  13. avatar Ranger Rick says:

    When the social workers and interventionists are dispatched in lieu of the police , I’m looking forward to the comedy of errors.

  14. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

    Can’t rely on the police? It is much worse than that.The police are going after people who try to defend themselves by driving through rioters attacking their vehicles among other things. The police in many cities are providing security for the rioters. “Just following orders’ is a great excuse, there is nothing else you can do once you get an order.

    1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

      Now the question is. How many (L) libertarians or (C) conservatives I don’t care, are prepared to attend jury duty? And vote for nullification.
      Since the cops “are just following orders”. Many people who claim they want non violent solutions, are they willing to participate in the process? Will you put your name in the jury pool?

    2. avatar CarlosT says:

      Add to that the Kyle Rittenhouse case, the case of the McCloskeys, and it’s becoming clear there’s no right to self-defense in many places, while at the same time a right to riot, loot, burn, and murder is being established.

  15. avatar gus says:

    your right to own guns does not depend on whether the police “renders them unnecessary”. ridiculous argument that nobody should have ever taken seriously for even one second.

  16. avatar Hey just try to find ammo that doesn’t break your budget, hahahahahahaha invest in lead!!!% says:

    A cops to heavy to carry and a good one is hard to find according to them! Ammo has quadrupled in price if you can find it!!!% things are not what they seem!

    1. avatar James Campbell says:

      It’s times like this when it pays to have a few odd caliber firearms.
      I own several handguns chambered in 7.65 Para (AKA; 7.65×21 & 30 Luger).
      Found SG Ammo (Oklahoma based ammo retailer) has lots of it. Ordered 2 cases (2k rounds) of Prvi Partisan a few weeks ago, was on my doorstep less then 48 hrs later.
      I may order another 2 cases just because it’s still available.
      Best advice, buy some oddball caliber guns (and ammo) when this current run on firearms and ammo dies down.

      1. avatar PM in Fl. says:

        Why is it that third world rebels have plenty of ammo to shoot in the air or just full auto bursts anywhere? Why can’t we in the U.S. get our ammo, and at a regular price???

    2. avatar Chris Morton says:

      I bought 1,000 rounds of M193 back in the ’90s when I thought I was going to have to shoot some Nazis. Fortunately, it keeps well if properly stored and works just as well on communists and anarchists.

  17. avatar Gilberto Ortega says:

    Love this

  18. avatar Nope says:

    A privately owned sucerity firm will be hired with redirected funds. The firm will prove to be brutally effective in enforcement & protection of assets.
    Due to the Nature of their employment being private instead of public do not expect accountability /oversight.

  19. avatar Mister Fleas says:

    Thanks for deleting my post/sarcasm.

    There was nothing vulgar, violent, racist, or seditious in those links I provided or the words I wrote.

  20. avatar Chris Morton says:

    My family learned in 1919 that the police won’t protect us when the Chicago Police Department took the side of White arsonists and rioters like Richard J. Daley.

    Protect YOURSELF or just don’t get protected AT ALL. Anybody who tells you different is a liar.

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