5.56 vs .223: What’s the Difference? Does it Matter?

223 vs 556 ammo

Dan Z. for TTAG

What’s the difference between 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington, anyhow? The rounds are supposed to be interchangeable…kinda, sorta, maybe…right?

The difference in the round itself: the NATO round is a little bit hotter. The case is the same size, but the powder charge, projectile and also the rifle specifications differ. As a result, make sure to check your AR-15 to see which it’s chambered for, as not all AR-15 rifles sold to civilians are the same.

NATO, you see, develops standardized loads so that any member nation has specifications for making the ammunition. As a result, a NATO round is a NATO round is a NATO round.

The standard loading is NATO SS109 (aka M855) which uses a 62-grain projectile. The powder charge for that round is on the hot side, which is loaded to chamber pressures around 62,400 psi in a rifle chambered for 5.56mm NATO.

In a rifle chambered for .223 Remington, the round produces chamber pressures upward of 70,000 psi, if going by SAAMI (the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) standards.

By contrast, .223 Remington tends to produce lower chamber pressures between 52,000 and 55,000 psi, going by SAAMI specs. Therefore, 5.56mm NATO ammo isn’t safe for use in a rifle chambered for .223 Remington, but .223 is OK in 5.56. Thus, powder charge is the main difference between 5.56 vs .223 cartridges.

Wait. How can there be that much more chamber pressure when muzzle velocity for a 62gr pill – according to specs from Federal Ammunition for 5.56mm and .223 – is exactly the same?

5.56 vs .223

JWT for TTAG

NATO specifies that any rifle chambered for 5.56mm have a longer leade than that employed for the .223 Remington round. The leade is the distance between the case mouth and the point at which the rifling begins in the barrel.

The .223 Remington chamber dimensions create a tighter seal on the projectile, and thus produces more pressure despite firing the same size projectile from the same case, given a slightly hotter powder charge, since more gas escapes with the larger leade.

The length and diameter of the leade — called the “freebore” — is longer and wider for the 5.56mm round, meaning there is a wider, longer free space the bullet travels in before it contacts the grooves in the barrel.

In addition to the higher pressure, NATO specs also call for any rifle made for use by NATO forces, including the M16, the M4 and other service rifles like the L85A2 of the UK or France’s FAMAS, have rifling with a 1:7 twist, or in other words 7 inches for a full 360 degrees of rifling rotation. This is so the NATO L110 tracer round (which has a longer projectile) can be fired from the same rifle as the standard ball round, as the optimal twist rate for the 62gr 5.56mm round is more like 1:9.

5.56 vs .223

Barrel rifling

Most civilian AR-15 pattern rifles have a twist rate of 1:9, which is actually something of a compromise. The slower twist rate enables the shooter to use different bullet weights, whereas a NATO-spec gun pretty much uses 62gr ball and 77gr tracer rounds only.

The civilian shooter could conceivably shoot a mix of 40 grain varmint rounds, 50 and 55 grain ball at the range, and even 62 grain ball when they’re feeling squirrely. Lighter bullets benefit from a slower twist rate (1:10 or even 1:12) so a twist rate of 1:8 or 1:9 makes it so you can get decent performance from anything.

So…5.56 vs .223. The former uses slightly more powder. Rifles chambered for it must adhere to certain specifications to suit it as it is a standardized military cartridge. The latter adheres to different specifications (such as a shorter leade), but has a much more diverse array of loadings from available from ammunition manufacturers. Case dimensions, however, are the same.

What this means in practical terms is that you won’t get the most out of actual 5.56 NATO ammo unless your rifle is made to NATO specifications such as the leade, twist rate, and can take somewhat higher chamber pressures. Thus, with its lower pressures, .223 can be safely used in a NATO-spec rifle in 5.56mm, but not the other way around.

Which brings us also to the .223 Wylde round. This isn’t actually a cartridge. Instead, it’s a set of specifications that enable a rifle to use both cartridges.

Put more accurately, it’s actually a .223 Wylde chamber. It was devised by one Bill Wylde, who came up with a solution allowing for the safe use of both bullets in the same gun while maintaining accuracy. This is accomplished by resizing the chamber for the same length of leade of 5.56mm NATO, but with the freebore diameter of .223 Remington. Either caliber headspaces correctly, preserving accuracy for both.

5.56 vs .223

Now…which one should you get? The NATO cartridge or .223? 5.56 vs. 223?

The answer is you should first consider what you want it for. A gun, any gun, is ultimately a tool, so therefore consider your task.

The .223 Remington chambering is the better all ’rounder. You can do a bunch of shooting at the range and in competition. You can load a bit heavier for hunting predators or varminting and since most .223 rifles have that slower twist rate, shorter leade and tighter freebore, the .223 will likely be more accurate.

That means it will be more precise at long range, though there are better rifle chamberings purely for long-range target work and varminting (.22-250 and .243 Winchester come to mind). There is also a better selection of ammunition for hunting other game — if you live in a jurisdiction that allows it — and for self-defense.

5.56mm NATO has fewer loadings commercially available and is also a dollar or two more expensive per box…but you get to say “mine uses military-spec ammo.” In terms of real-world capabilities of the round, that probably isn’t worth…well, basically anything. Is that worth much to you?

Let us know in the comments what YOU think about that.

 

This article was originally published in 2018.

comments

  1. avatar enuf says:

    Mostly I have .223 Remington stacked up in the ammo closet, 55gr FMJ. Some 5.56 NATO, but not so much. All seems to go down range as desired, punches holes in paper, busts up clays, etc etc etc.

    I am aware of the differences but none of it seems to bother my plinking time any, so I pay it no mind.

  2. avatar Narcoossee says:

    Because of the reference to “civilians”, this implies that the AR-15 is, in fact a “military-grade” weapon: “As a result, make sure to check your AR-15 to see which it’s chambered for, as not all AR-15 rifles sold to civilians are the same.”

    1. avatar enuf says:

      Both of my AR-15’s claim 5.56 NATO chambers and M4 feed ramps. Neither is a weapon of war. So far, both as truly mean, cruel and heartless to clay’s and soda cans and steel plates and the odd Pro-Mag found laying out there where someone gave up on it.

    2. avatar Prndll says:

      The H3 Hummer is a civilian version of the original Hummer (H1) that was intended as a military vehicle.

      There are all kinds of things like this.

      1. avatar GS650G says:

        Except the H1 is a real off road vehicle and the H2 and H3 were chevy trucks with a different body. Take a look under a H1 and you’ll see the difference.

        1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          The H3 comes with a suburban soccer mom that drives 5 mph slower than the speed limit and doesn’t know what the turn signal is for.

        2. avatar Prndll says:

          I remember seeing the H1 for the first time at a car show. If it were an option, I would have bought it right there. It was the only kind of Hummer that I ever thought was worth having. Then the H3 came out and I fealt such a let down. It’s a similar kinda feeling when I saw what the Ruger Mark 4 pistol got changed into. After mastering the MarkIII, it just seemed like a waist of money.

        3. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          “The H3 comes with a suburban soccer mom that drives 5 mph slower than the speed limit and doesn’t know what the turn signal is for.”

          AS long as she wasn’t frigid, I might be able to deal with that.

          With a pony-tail and yoga pants, sold!

          (Misogyny-R-Us… 😉 )

      2. avatar Tommy357 says:

        I have a civilian version of a military grade satellite guidance system – it’s called an iPhone with iMaps. In the wrong hands it could guide an ICBM to within an inch of any target on the planet.

        Fortunately, I am a legal guidance-system owner.

        1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

          Tommy, you seem like a dangerous man.
          I’m gonna keep an eye on you.

        2. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          “In the wrong hands it could guide an ICBM to within an inch of any target on the planet.”

          Actually, an ICBM is a hard no-go. ‘Baked-in’ the silicon with the publicly-available chipset it will not function over a certain velocity. So, with an inbound 17,000 MPH missile, it just sits there going ‘Derp.’…

        3. avatar David says:

          Cruise missile it is then. Easier to build and test without drawing any undue attention anyways.

  3. avatar Biff says:

    I don’t know how you can conclude .223 is the best option. If you get a .223 Wylde or a 5.56 you can shoot any available ammo from 40 to 77 grain.

    The only reason to get a dedicated .223 is in a bolt gun or specialized AR15 to shoot light 40-55 grain bullets. If you want to hunt varmints it might be a good choice.

    For an AR15 a .223 Wylde in 1:8 twist will probably be the most accurate with commonly available ammunition.

    A 5.56 NATO chamber with a 1:7 twist is also a good choice since most milspec rifles commonly come this way. For a mass produced 16” carbine there really isn’t much accuracy difference vs the .223 Wylde unless you pony up for a premium barrel.

    1. avatar J. Smith says:

      Exactly Biff. In my AR’s I use 1-8 Wylde twist and chamber, no worries and accuracy is good, sometimes even great. Dedicated bolt actions or precision guns, go with .223. . I have a 26″ hb with 1-12 twist, one holes 40g v-max all day and gets 4,000 fps.

    2. avatar Jerms says:

      Honest question…what is .223 wylde? Does it just let you shoot 5.56 and .223? If so, why is it a different name? Ive glanced online but its still not clear to me

      1. avatar Biff says:

        .223 Wylde isn’t a cartridge, it refers to how the chamber is cut. It was designed to be able to shoot both standard 5.56 NATO military ammunition and heavy bullet (75-77 grain) match rounds more accurately than a standard 5.56 NATO chamber. Bill Wylde did this by changing the leade, or the chamber throat (the transition from the chamber to the rifling) so it was tighter than a NATO chamber, but still had enough room to safely accommodate longer bullets.

        If you are buying a premium barrel it is a good option. I’d be kind of wary buying a bargain bin rifle with a Wylde chamber though. I’d rather have something like a BCM with a NATO barrel than a cheap rifle with a Wylde barrel.

        1. avatar Jerms says:

          So it’s like a 5.56 barrel/chamber but optimized performance of heavier 5.56 bullets if I understand correctly

      2. avatar Someone says:

        It is explained in the article.
        Pay no attention to the headspace note. While it’s not wrong, both .223 and 5.56 headspace on the case shoulder and it has nothing to do with differences in lead.

    3. avatar raz-0 says:

      This article mashes enough things together into assumptions that I question if those assumptions are based on knowledge and experience or ignorance.

      Specifically comparing the cartridge pressures. Yes, nato pressure is roughly 62,400. But that pressure is gotten by a different method (EPVAT) than SAAMI uses. A saami 55,000 psi is not an epvat 55,000psi. The military has another method of measuring pressure called SCATP whihc is much more analogous to saami’s method. And the spec for 5.56 using that method is 55,140 psi. Which might as well be the same as the saami pressure specs.

      So where did they pull the 70,000 psi number form and which method does it use? Because as you can see it matters a lot where you take the pressure reading. It’s why CIP doesn’t match SAAMI doesn’t match EPVAT. 70,000 EPVAT vs 62,366 is less of a deal than 70,000 SAAMI.

      Then of course there’s the fact that chamber reamers are all over the place. You have some .223 ones that are more generous than some 5.56 ones. So what is stamped on the barrel doesn’t necessarily mean much.

      Then there is brass. 5.56 technically holds 28.5 grains of water, and .223 28.8 grains. Does it matter? only if you are loading to the bleeding edge and not sneaking up on it form the safe side. Even then, I have seen .223 sold with new lake city brass from big names, so…

      From a consumer standpoint, I just buy 1:8 .223 wylde barrels and call it done and just don’t push my loads to the bleeding edge.

      Also the articles talk like you’ll blow your gun up and this is something to care about. the ammo will warn you it’s a bad fit by popping primers and or splitting case necks. If your doing that, stop with that ammo and rifle combo, regardless of mix and matching. It’s really the only warning you get that means anything given the variation in chamber reamers.

  4. avatar Nate in CA says:

    In my eyes it’s still just a poodle popper – I respect it from an logistics/effectiveness perspective, but it’s not enjoyable to shoot. Unless you’re building a TEOWAWKI gun, stick with .223 (or better yet, 7.62x39mm).

    1. avatar enuf says:

      According to recent news, Orlando Bloom (the actor) is missing a poodle.

      Please hold of on any “popping” of that sort, there’s a $5K reward being offered.

    2. avatar Username says:

      You look like a poodle to me.

    3. avatar TJW says:

      Poodle is French for puddle

    4. avatar Someone says:

      What is not enjoyable about shooting the .223/5.56? Is it it’s decent accuracy? Low recoil? Light guns?
      Almost all people I took to the range for their first time say they enjoyed my .223 Wylde AR15 most. My 11 years old son loves to shoot it. I enjoy it just fine too.

    5. avatar adverse6 says:

      The 5.56 NATO is the Border Collie of military rounds, it’s main job is to herd the opposition into a kill zone for the heavy stuff.

      1. avatar edward kenway says:

        Which is why the Army is going to the 6.8mm round.
        Still, as a ballistics nut I can’t see why they didn’t go with the 6.5×42 MPC which is a shortened 45mm brass case. It has better performance without being a barrel burner and still fits well with ARs … but the Army wants a new 6.8mm replacement despite the years of 6.5mm performance.

  5. avatar Dude says:

    “5.56mm NATO has fewer loadings commercially available and is also a dollar or two more expensive per box”

    The last time I bought it at Wal-Mart, it was the exact same price for the same brand and grain. The NATO was loaded slightly hotter.

  6. avatar Sam I Am says:

    These type postings are always welcomed. Can’t understand why/how I missed this in 2018.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      Me either. Must’ve missed it entirely.

      Me? For these two cartridges, I take the simplest path. My AR for this chambering is spec’d for 5.56, so I have 5.56 premium ammo for TEOTWAWKI, but practice my drills mostly with cheaper .223. That’s as “operator” as I get with it.

    2. avatar Cletus says:

      You would think they would at least edit out the mistakes before republishing the article.

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “You would think they would at least edit out the mistakes before republishing the article.”

        Some of us don’t have the experience to identify the mistakes. I just have to take rifle articles at face values until the comment section provided clarification.

  7. avatar Frank says:

    Damn, I don’t know. As long as 5.56 ammo is available, I don’t care if it is NATO standard or not, except maybe for the desire to use that specific ammunition such as an end of society apocalypse where I might need to scrounge or trade or beg for ammo from military sources.

    I am one who believes in using what works best for you. Although for example, .38 long is easier to find than .38 Super, but if you can handle and shoot a firearm that uses it, then I say buy it. I own an old Mauser and I love it, but ammo is hard to find now, but not impossible, so for occasional use it’s acceptable. Then again, maybe one day those calibers will make a comeback like anything that people show an interest in.

  8. avatar Rad Man says:

    Does it matter? No, neither caliber matters. Now, 6.5 Grendel and 762×39 matter!

  9. avatar Prndll says:

    Dan:
    These kinds of articles are great. It was the original reason I started coming here in the first place. I think more people would benifit from this type of thing.

  10. avatar Mark N. says:

    I built my rifle with a 1:8 Wylde chambered barrel so I wouldn’t have to worry about it.

    1. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

      Smart move.

      Now, can a .223 or 5.56 barrel be re-chambered into a Wylde?

      (My old Mini-14 chambered for .223 ate 5.56 with nary a hiccup. Then again, that gun was more accurate than I was able to shoot it, anyways…)

      1. avatar Mike V says:

        I think the mini is 5.56, even though it is marked .223
        Had to look into it a few years ago and that’s what I discovered.

        1. avatar Huntmaster says:

          Some of them are, some of them aren’t. You need to know if yours is.

      2. avatar Mike V says:

        Wait, did you just compliment the accuracy of your mini?

        1. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          “Wait, did you just compliment the accuracy of your mini?”

          No, it was a ‘mea culpa’ of how bad I suck as a rifleman… 😉

        2. avatar edward kenway says:

          That’s funny, but true.
          I bought a Mini 223 folder years ago and gave it to my dad. The higher ammo capacity seems to give him confidence … that, and he’s older and doesn’t want to deal with the recoil of magnum revolvers.

      3. avatar Ing says:

        Based on the article’s limited info, I’m guessing a .223 chamber could be Wylded (increasing the leade), but 5.56 probably can’t, because the extra space already in the chamber can’t be undone.

        I went for a 5.56 NATO chambering with 1:8 twist when I snagged my AR because the uppers with Wylde chambers were more expensive and I wanted a rifle that would shoot *all* the available ammo with reasonable accuracy.

        I can pick up whatever’s cheapest for target practice without regard to bullet weight (it’s almost always 55gr .223 or 62gr 5.56 Tula crap), and I keep a couple of mags loaded with Frontier open-tip match in case I need to repel invaders.

        Basically, I’m following the AR ownership manual for cheapskates.

      4. avatar Ironhead says:

        I do not believe the chamber can be converted to a wylde.

        1. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          At one time in the past, Ruger offered a Wylde chambered Mini-14…

  11. avatar former water walker says:

    My defense AR magazines are loaded with M855 green tip,Federal M193 ammo and whatever quality 223 for the remainder(anyone use 223 Frontier soft point for defense?) At the range whatever brass 223almost I have. Smith & Wesson Sport 16″ barrel 1in 9 twist…almost all the ammo bought cheap.

  12. avatar Matt says:

    They skipped over the mil. case wall being thicker than .223

    1. avatar Curtis in Illinois says:

      ^True.
      And since the .556 case has less capacity because of the thicker wall, this is going to be a potential consideration if you reload.

      1. avatar Jim from LI says:

        The .223 case holds .02 ml less water than a 5.56; does this really affect the pressure generated with the same powder load, or does it only increase the case durability with NATO-spec loads?

    2. avatar Biff says:

      Mil cases are usually heavier in 7.62×51 vs .308.

      When it comes to 5.56 vs .223 it isn’t necessarily true. The heaviest cases I’ve seen have all been .223

  13. avatar GS650G says:

    My boxes say .308 or 7.62 x 51 mm so I can’t possibly have an opinion on the varmint rounds.

    1. avatar EpsteinDidNOTKillHimself says:

      @GS650G,
      I reload, have not bought factory ammo in nearly 2 decades, so, it is possible to reload 7.62×51 for varmint rounds.

      To the article, if I were so inclined to have a AR15, likely I would have a 5.56NATO and call it good.
      Having to concern myself with the what is it caliber is an additional worry I would rather not have.
      Per all the crazy that we are currently seeing in the US let alone the world, I think it only prudent to opt for the lest amount of arse pain or worry about if that round in your chamber is gonna result in a catastrophic failure or not.

      1. avatar GS650G says:

        223 is based on. 222, a varmint round. I shoot rounds that deliver lots of energy.

        1. avatar Swoon says:

          Youre so cool 😍

  14. avatar mrpski says:

    After shooting a mil spec AR 15 for 50 years I finally bought another one, 5.56 with the Wylde chamber 1.8 and it is more accurate than the old one, course the old one had maybe 5000 rounds through it and Lord knows how many before I got it. Whether it is 50 or 500 yards a pie plate is good enough for me I never considered a bulls-eye invasion so I am good.

  15. avatar Andy G says:

    Fun Fact: In the UK (and probably the rest of Europe/EU) rifles are proof tested to CIP standard. .223 is a SAAMI spec cartridge and has no CIP spec so the proof houses in the UK test to the nearest CIP cartridge which is 5.56 NATO. So any rifles sold in the UK as .223 have been proof tested as 5.56 NATO.

    1. avatar GS650G says:

      All three of them IOW.

  16. avatar Darkman says:

    As I understand it. .223 dedicated rifles are not designed to handle the chamber pressure of the 5.56 round. I shoot both in my Bushy with equal accuracy out to 100 meters. Anything that needs to be dead farther out gets the .308.

  17. avatar Auggie says:

    Have any of you heard of a KABOOM happening because someone put 5.56 ammo in a barrel marked .223? I haven’t. If I were a barrel manufacturer, I would make sure that even barrels marked .223 would handle 5.56 ammo. Being a litigious society and all.

    1. avatar Prndll says:

      Your in luck. That’s exactly what they do now. Just to make sure there is no confusion though they add the word “Wylde” to the stamping.

      1. avatar Montana Actual says:

        lol. Almost like you read the entire article…

    2. avatar RGP says:

      Gunmakers would have been sued into oblivion since the 1960’s if you could blow up their products by firing 5.56 in a gun marked .223.

    3. avatar Andrew says:

      Worst I’ve seen in a bolt action Remington chambered in .223 was that you couldn’t cycle the bolt after a single round of 5.56 until the chamber had completely cooled. Couldn’t get the bolt open with a Hammer and a Wooden block. That casing expanded and wedged itself in the chamber.

    4. avatar Andrew says:

      Worst I’ve seen in a bolt action Remington chambered in .223 was that you couldn’t cycle the bolt after a single round of 5.56 until the chamber had completely cooled. Couldn’t get the bolt open with a Hammer and a Wooden block. That casing expanded and wedged itself in the chamber. So yes, it does matter if your rifle is chambered for .223

  18. avatar Montana Actual says:

    In 2020 if you are not using a .223 wylde build, you are way behind and probably low on ammo 😉

  19. avatar 5spot says:

    Correction maybe??
    Shouldn’t it read 5.56 has pressures of 70k psi, not .223 Rem?

  20. avatar Rob Driggs says:

    I reload both 223 and 5.56 cases with 27 grains of Hogdon CFE 223 powder for a 55 grain bullet and they both shoot well from my Remington 700 bolt action and my AR 15s . The twist rates vary from 1 in 10 to 1in 7 .

    1. avatar Southern Cross says:

      And I thought my 55g load of Winchester .223 cases, Winchester small rifle primers, and 25.5g of AR2206H was on the hot side. I’m amazed 27g of powder will fit into a .223 case and seat a projectile to SAAMI length.

      1. avatar Someone says:

        Hogdon CFE 223 is very fine grained. It may fill the same volume with little more weight compared to extruded powder. Hodgdon data shows max load of 27.8 gr at 51,300 psi.

  21. avatar Mike Carbine says:

    Funny thing is that standard issue Brit 5.56mm would not cycle in our US M-4s till the buffer & extractor springs were swapped with stronger ones. But it’s all the same NATO standard right…not really.

  22. avatar Craig Shue says:

    With all that has been said there is one certainty. Any time a primer is ignited and charge sends a projectile down a barrel a liberal sheds a tear, so FIRE AT WILL.

    1. avatar Southern Cross says:

      Who is Will?

      1. avatar Captain Obvious says:

        A liberal.

  23. avatar Wally1 says:

    5.56 or .223, none of this matters because there will never be any peace in the world until you start using your turn signal.

  24. avatar BradB says:

    A few years ago I stumbled on a super deal so bought RRA AR4s for all the kids (grown adults) and the brother & sister-in-law. These were all chambered in 5.56. I had a lot of .223 55 grain on hand so we spent the first range day burning some of that up. We learned the hard way that the .223 would not reliably cycle the rifles. Maybe now, after a few thousand rounds through most of them they would do better, but the gas system appears to be tuned to the chambered round, so be aware of that when running .223 through a 5.56 chamber.

    1. avatar Andrew says:

      Can’t you adjust the gas system on those rifles?

      1. avatar BradB says:

        It takes an adjustable gas block. I put one on my .308. These all had the A2 front sight (gas block as part of the sight) so there is a little more to it than just unbolting one part and popping on another. (Not too difficult – go get YouTube certified. It’s do-able.)

        Perhaps you could overcome it by playing with the buffer and/or spring but I am not enough of an AR expert to reliably comment on that. Likely someone will be along shortly though. Stay tuned.

  25. avatar Markie says:

    If I were t have but one .223 barrel, it would be Wilde chambered. I can’t see a reason not to.

    1. avatar Chris. says:

      Yes – this is of course the correct answer.

  26. avatar Mark Kelly's Diapered Drooling Ventriloquist's Dummy says:

    Why even bother with all this BS, just shoot 7.62 x 39 out of SKSs and AKs and be done with it.

  27. avatar Chris. says:

    So, next question – How do you pronounce Wylde?

    I’ve heard both “Wild” & “Will-dee”?

  28. avatar Colin says:

    The real question here is, is a Saiga. 223 AK actually a 5.56 rifle that was marked. 223 for import reasons? Or is it truly a 223 spec rifle?
    Mine seems to eat 5.56 with no issues.

  29. avatar Dan Barbar says:

    No difference in case capacities – thats a myth.

  30. avatar merkureal says:

    I’m a liberal Democrat with guns and am prepping, so I don’t take kindly to the sneering and write-off. I’ve been a gun owner for almost 30 years, and for much longer than that, I hoped that 2A would be recognized as an individual right. (Although, taken in its entirety, it doesn’t clearly mean that.)

    Personally, I remember that millions of Jews went to the ovens and gas chambers, and to slave labor, etc., within living memory–in many cases because they didn’t have guns (though that would not have availed them for long if they had).

    But maybe some of you are Holocaust deniers, and Trump-fascist friendly. As they’re saying, Reagan would be rolling in his grave with all this kissing up to Russia. And, I’m not even a fan of Reagan.

    In any case, anyone who comes on my property to mess with me is going to be made to regret it. My arsenal is growing. Next will be a “modern sporting rifle” (before they’re banned), then an updated concealed carry handgun.

    I’m friends with local law enforcement, and they support my moves–and will be conducting CCW training that I’ll be attending. I already had a CCW permit in AZ, and was named “Best in Class,” and given a commemorative T-shirt.

    I had an immigrant Russian woman cutting my hair for a few years, and she was born to a couple who met in the woods of Belarus during WWII (see the film Defiance).

    I’m on forums like these because I appreciate the informed opinions (and disagreements) on technical and practical gun issues.

    1. avatar Sam I Am says:

      I would be seriously interested in an explanation of how one claims to be a staunch 2A beneficiary, yet votes for the party that is clearly intent on banning all firearms in private hands.

      1. avatar merkureal says:

        Well, Sam–you nailed it: I am a 2A beneficiary, not a worshiper.

        Also, I strongly disagree that most Democrats want to take all guns away from civilians.

        I used to agree with liberals–advocates of common sense gun legislation–that “modern sporting rifles” (2A worshipers’ euphemism for what opponents like to call “assault rifles”) have no legitimate civilian use. Having learned more about them, their range of calibers, enjoyment factor in their use, etc., I’m not so sure about that anymore.

        However, to the extent that they are modeled on combat rifles (M4, M16 etc.), function similarly and have comparable ability to wreak mass carnage–I’m on the fence. Maybe I just oppose 30 – 100 round magazines/drums.

        Further, I’m a hypocrite. I decided I want MINE before they may be banned in coming months. And, as a liberal Jew Democrat, the reason I want mine is in anticipation of right-wing, racist, nazi, antisemitic marauders such as even the mainstream media are reporting/warning may either be PO’d enough or empowered enough after Nov. 3 to throw their armed, hateful weight around.

        I have 8 acres, with my home in the middle, on high ground. So I want an assortment of weapons, including high-capacity “modern sporting rifle(s)”- in case any hostiles try to come of the 300 yards of my driveway or hillside pasture.

        I saw an anti-mask, lrge redneck have a fit at being asked to put on a mask while I was upgrading my cell phone 10-12 weeks ago. He ranted for a momment and then stormed out, slamming the door. Similar incidents have included physical violence in recent months, e.g. in Michigan.

        Therefore, I bought a (new) concealed carry weapon and am renewing my concealed carry permit next month. I had one in AZ–did I mention previously? Best in class–marksmanship, inability to be rattled while shooting–and the only guy in the classroom NOT trying to think up scenarios to justify the use of deadly force.

        The trainers VERY MUCH prefer NOT to inadvertently be sending a bunch of ignorant hotheads out with concealed weapons who are just drooling over the chance to use them.

        Lastly, I am a Gemini’s Gemini–notoriously hard to peg, hard to label. I align left–mostly–but I take a cafeteria approach to what liberal causes and values I support. I DO know that most of what Trump and followers represent is vile and reprehensible to me–and he has co-opted and remade the GOP in his slimy, Russia (and other dictator-) loving image.

        Obviously, I’m no Christian–but if Christians truly acted as if they modeled themselves on the pious, compassionate, JEWISH Jesus I’d greet them as brothers and cousins. What’s laughable is that evangelicals are the hardest-core among his base of blind, foaming-at-the-mouth supporters.

        I’ve been think through all this for decades, therefore probably since before you were born. But, notwithstanding your incorrect assumptions about me and Democrats/liberals in general, I appreciate you inviting me to explain my prior comment.

        1. avatar Sam I Am says:

          Thank you for such a carefully constructed response. As it is, there is much error in your commentary.

          It isn’t the “alt-right, KKK, skinhead, white supremacy militia that are destroying property and hurting people. And no, the riots are not filled with agents provocateur made up of the groups you fear. The ~4000 people killed in Chicago during Obama’s two terms were not victims of the groups you fear.

          The Left is causing all the destruction you see on television. The “right wing” are not fascists, it is the Left. Please compare Leftist rhetoric and actions with the Brown Shirts and SS of Nazi Germany (not to mention the same type actors in Stalin’s Soviet Union). It is the Left who are the fascists. It is the Right who are the defenders of Israel and the Jewish state. And when was the last time a mainstream Christian leader was openly, sincerely, publicly anti-Jew? You are looking in the wrong direction. The Left, the Democratic Parrty will disarm you, whether “most Demoncrats” support gun confiscation, or not.

          When it comes to rapid fire weapons, the number of events where such weapons were used, the number of events, and the fatality rate are nowhere near the annual slaughter in Detroit, Boston, Chicago, Newark, Baltimore, New York. It is not roving mobs of “right wing” groups who do all that shooting.

          Take some time, go all the way back to 1966, Charles Whitman, then come forward with the total count of fatalities due to “mass shootings”. Then calculate the average. Even with Las Vegas included, the “mass shooting” deaths cannot even approach the count of dead as a result of crime in major US cities. Go back through history and you will find that “the mob” is almost exclusively populated by people with authoritarian goals and principals.

          Finally, when you and your party confiscate guns from the population at large, the groups you claim to fear will still have guns…and you will not. Think about the history of governments around the world who had a monoply on firepower, and look at the result. Do you want Donald Trump and his government in complete control of firepower? Your party intends to put you at complete dependency on the good nature of government. The founders weren’t idiots. They knew government was antithetical to freedom and liberty.

        2. avatar merkureal says:

          Well, Sam, we are in agreement on some things, not on others, and in a gray area on some.

          A. I understand the stats, 1) that mass shootings using military-style rifles are, statistically, rare.
          B. They are way outnumbered by street crime/murders.

          However, street crime and organized reactionaries–comparing apples and oranges.
          I disagree that BLM protesters and their supporters are responsible for murders and provocations. Looting and vandalism are unfortunate and counterproductive to the protests’ goals and values. But they’re also two separate things.

          I know the Democratic “Nanny state” can be worrisome and even oppressive in some of its attitudes and goals. But GOP-led/run governments are worse, in most regards. They are state-corporatists, who pander to a base on social wedge issues to get people like you to vote overall against your best interests–your economic and civil liberties issues.

          Read “What’s the Matter With Kansas” by Thomas Frank, about how Reagan policies hollowed out the economies and civil life of middle America, using those electoral tactics.

          I forget what else there is to say, I don’t have your latest reply in front of me. As you should be able to tell, I am not naive, and I don’t buy ANY ideology hook, line and sinker. I think for myself and make judgments based on that and on some bedrock values. E.g., not only brown/black people, but all poor people are where they are and are kept there by collusion between corporations and government. All people have equal value and equality before the law*, rights and dignity.

          The criminal justice system needs major reform–getting rid of cash bail, private prisons, no-knock warrants, etc. among them.

          The “War on Drugs” is a farce, and the Nixon administration admitted it was initiated to keep black people down. I don’t use drugs, haven’t since before college–but their use is far less destructive than the consequences of outlawing them.

          No U.S. government is going to succeed in banning or (further) over-regulating guns. Nor will mine be forfeit if they try. I will rise up right along with you if they try. But let’s make sure our targets are actually ones with identifiably fascist behavior, policies, abuse of power and anti-democratic goals. –Akin to the current occupant of the White House and his corrupt toadies/cronies in government, such as Barr.

          I find that government haters (as opposed to skeptics, like me) who oppose regulation, are quite good at mastering regs and (grudgingly?) following them when it comes to hunting/fishing, and yes, guns.

        3. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “They are state-corporatists, who pander to a base on social wedge issues to get people like you to vote overall against your best interests–your economic and civil liberties issues.”

          The Democrat Party is the party of the wealthy elites. The names are household.

          I take you as serious, so I will make a serious recommendation: buy and read two books by a successful Jewish author. The titles are “Winds of War”, and “War and Rememberance”.

          Trump administration made the reform of justice a hallmark bit of legislation. Democrats? Trump administration is pulling back from endless foreign wars? Democrats? Trump administration held the record for economic advancement of every significant demographic. Democrats?

          Comparing inner city killings to “mass shootings” is entirely appropriate, and logical: both are elements of calculating overall risk of individuals being shot at any point. Attacking the fringe while ignoring core rot will result in very little (unless one runs their life based on, “If it saves even one.”) improvement in general safety.

          In short, you are relying on outdated Democrat talking points.

          As to your note that you are being hypocritical, I agree, but not with your description. You are hypocritical in that a member of the party promoting personal dependence on government, is taking personal responsibility for his well being, safety, protection. The Democrat Party promotes the proposition that government is the only legitimate source of health, safety, and wealth creation/distribution. Yet you are underlining the fact that government is not responsible, much less the source, of your personal safety.

        4. avatar merkureal says:

          Briefly, for the moment.

          The Kochs aren’t rich elites on the GOP/corporatist side? The Mercers? Members of the Federalist Society?

          I thought I’d be expecting your proper challenge that street crime isn’t random, it’s often gang related. That’s partly a result of longstanding city planning that carved up minority neighborhoods and set them back economically by where highways, roads and other public works have been put in. Look up Robert Moses and inequality, etc.

          In ANY case, we don’t need unidentified militarized goons from Homeland Security invading cities to deal with protests and backlashes thereto.

          I know of Herman Wouk, I’ll look up those books if you do the Thomas Frank (or Franks) one.

          By the way, any informed opinion about/experience with the Anderson 5.56? Ruger 5:56? Any others currently available at under $850? Way under? AKs?

        5. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “By the way, any informed opinion about/experience with the Anderson 5.56? Ruger 5:56? Any others currently available at under $850? Way under? AKs?”

          Not a rifle guy. But….being trained on an M-1, I would go for .30 caliber class rifles.

          “The Kochs aren’t rich elites on the GOP/corporatist side? The Mercers? Members of the Federalist Society?”

          Not elites. And those names are not household. Think the dominance of the left coast elites, and Bloomberg. It ain’t the little guy propelling the Democrat Party. The small contributors for Republicrats overwhelm the number of small donors for Democrats. Point being, the Democrat Party of Roosevelt is long gone.

          “I thought I’d be expecting your proper challenge that street crime isn’t random, it’s often gang related. That’s partly a result of longstanding city planning that carved up minority neighborhoods and set them back economically by where highways, roads and other public works have been put in.”

          The majority of the “isn’t random” street crime is in Democrat controlled cities. If you want to separate random from non-random, the risk of non-random shootings is not even in the same zip code as the “gang related” shootings. Which means, no matter how you carve it, the risk of a random shooting is extremely limited, and focusing on the extremely limited does nothing to improve the safety of the deprived commuities, which should be of most importance to the Democrat Party…the party of care and compassion, and the little guy.

          “I know of Herman Wouk, I’ll look up those books if you do the Thomas Frank (or Franks) one.”

          No thanks. I went to university with radical leftists, socialists and closet communists. Don’t need to read that stuff any more. But if you want to really know whether it is left or right that poses the greatest threat to freedom and liberty, listen to the Cubans who fled Castro, or Solzhenitsyn.

          I have been around long enough to know that the intellectual class in this country is as incapable of getting socialism/communism “right” as all the non-American intellectuals in history. As someone once said, “The purpose of terrorism is terror.” Thus, the purpose of unlimited power is unlimited power. The founders were simply brilliant. Learn from them.

  31. avatar merkureal says:

    Some corrections and additions to the above. My attempt to edit didn’t take (it’s just digits so what if many are duplicated):

    Well, Sam–you nailed it: I am a 2A beneficiary, not a worshiper.

    Also, I strongly disagree that most Democrats want to take all guns away from civilians.

    I used to agree with liberals–advocates of common sense gun legislation–that “modern sporting rifles” (2A worshipers’ euphemism for what opponents like to call “assault rifles”) have no legitimate civilian use. Having learned more about them, their range of calibers, enjoyment factor in their use, etc., I’m not so sure about that anymore.

    However, to the extent that they are modeled on combat rifles (M4, M16 etc.), function similarly and have comparable ability to wreak mass carnage–I’m on the fence. Maybe I just oppose 30 – 100 round magazines/drums.

    Further, I’m a hypocrite. I decided I want MINE before they may be banned in coming months. And, as a liberal Jew Democrat, the reason I want mine is in anticipation of right-wing, racist, nazi, antisemitic marauders such as even the mainstream media are reporting/warning may either be PO’d enough or empowered enough after Nov. 3 to throw their armed, hateful weight around.

    I have 8 acres, with my home in the middle, on high ground. So I want an assortment of weapons, including high-capacity “modern sporting rifle(s)”- in case any hostiles try to come up the 300 yards of my driveway or hillside pasture.

    I saw an anti-mask, large, “spoiled-entitled” redneck have a fit at being asked to put on a mask before coming in the store while I was upgrading my cell phone 10-12 weeks ago. He ranted for a moment and then stormed out, slamming the door. Similar incidents have included physical violence in recent months, e.g. in Michigan.

    Therefore, I bought a (new) concealed carry weapon and am renewing my concealed carry permit next month. I had one in AZ–did I mention previously? Best in class–marksmanship, inability to be rattled while shooting–and the only guy in the classroom NOT trying to think up scenarios to justify the use of deadly force.

    The trainers VERY MUCH prefer NOT to inadvertently be sending a bunch of ignorant hotheads out with concealed weapons, who are just drooling over the chance–“opportunity”–to use them.

    Lastly, I am a Gemini’s Gemini–notoriously hard to peg, hard to label. I align left–mostly–but I take a cafeteria approach to what liberal causes and values I support.

    I used to read the Wall Street Journal for my job–including the right-wing op-ed pages. With my own credentials as a publisher, my letter to them on July 19, 2009 led their Letters to the Editor page. It took issue with a previous opinionator who was dismissing concerns about Murdoch and News Corp taking over Dow Jones. (including the newspaper, whose journalism if not opinions I used to respect highly)

    I DO know that most of what Trump and followers represent is vile and reprehensible to me–and he has co-opted and remade the GOP in his slimy, Russia (and other dictator-) loving image.

    And, obviously, I’m no Christian–but if Christians truly acted as if they modeled themselves on the pious, compassionate, JEWISH Jesus I’d greet them as brothers and cousins. What’s laughable is that evangelicals are the hardest-core among his base of blind, foaming-at-the-mouth supporters.

    I’ve been think through all this for decades, therefore probably since before you were born. But, notwithstanding your incorrect assumptions about me and Democrats/liberals in general, I appreciate you inviting me to explain my prior comment.

  32. avatar Gary Benson says:

    I’m learning here…..and claim to know nothing. But, a .223 computes to 5.66mm. How can this be shot from a 5.56?

Write a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

button to share on facebook
button to tweet
button to share via email