Lawyers in the George Zimmerman homicide trial will present opening arguments on Monday. Earlier today, Circuit Court Judge Debra Nelson impaneled six jury members to hear the case of the self- appointed neighborhood watchman accused of the Second Degree murder of Trayvon Martin. [NB: only capital murder cases have a 12-member jury in Florida.] All six jury members are women. One is Hispanic. Or a “lighter-skinned black woman,” as miamiherald.com describes juror B29. Although the jury’s racial makeup reflects that of Seminole county—where just under 10 percent of residents are African-American—it’s bound to add fuel to fire for those looking to fan the flames of racial hatred. If Zimmerman walks, well, Crazy Arthur Brown can tell you what will happen next. IMHO.
Home Crime and Punishment Zimmerman Jury: Too White for Blacks?
People are going to flip out about the makeup, likely fueled by the media, but the demographics of Seminole County make this no great surprise to me or anyone familiar with this area.
Outside of Orlando the middle of Florida is Extremely Conservative.
I’m more unhappy about the all female jury. With exceptions, of course, emotion seems to trump critical thinking.
I can’t believe I’m agreeing with J&D. But I agree. An all woman jury is bad news for GZim due to Martin being portrayed as a “child”.
I was just wondering about that. Not that I don’t think women can’t make logical and well reasoned rulings on a jury. It just seems odd that there’s not a single man on it, and not fair to Zimmerman. If the genders of the jury and defendant were reversed you’d know there’d be outrage.
Yep. Doesn’t make any difference if they’re black or white. Jury is mostly middle-aged women who are being portrayed as ignorant with regards to current events. Call me a sexist if you want, but I automatically assume that these are the types of women who are probably going to feel bad for the supposedly sweet little child who got shot, and not have a very easy time seeing past that awful event to see the facts of the case as presented.
If they are middle aged white women it may work in GZ’s favor. How many of these middle aged women have had negative contacts with unruly young black men in their day to day lives? Remember, rightly or wrongly the young black male has been demonized in our society.
That may well be, but the fact is that women DO think in terms of emotions, and in the case of this trial it will be an attempted war of emotions as both side fan the flames. The side that plays those emotions best will win.
From my personal experience as a lawyer and a juror, one thing I’ve noticed about middle-aged to older jurors generally is that they tend to decide slower than younger jurors.
Also, older jurors do not “go along to get along,” especially the women. I’m not aware of any statistics, but I’d wager that more juries are hung by older women than by older men.
In a difficult case like this, an older person is the kind of juror I would want if I was defending Zimmerman.
How many of these middle aged women have had negative contacts with unruly young black men in their day to day lives?
You sound like you’re a pig disgusting racist.
John, are you kidding here or do you work for NBC News?
You left out the final sentence in jwm’s post: “…Remember, rightly or wrongly the young black male has been demonized in our society.”
Kinda changes the meaning of the sentence quoted.
John, selective reading and editing of my comments proves nothing. research my past comments and tell me if you think I’m a racist. I am not.
I don’t have a real opinion about emotion vs. rational thinking or anything like that, but I think an all-female jury is a much bigger deal than a 5/6 white jury. If a person on the jury is actually racist and only likes white people, they will see Zimmerman as Latino. NO racist white person is going to let him off because the victim was black, since the defendant is also a minority. If they’re racist they’re racist and they’ll be anti-Zimmerman also. I just don’t see the unfair-against-Trayvon side of it in the event that somebody’s actually racist. I think it’s probably unfair in a fair way 😉
Women jurors are no more or less rational than their male counterparts. I’ve been a lawyer and a juror (twice), so I’ve seen it from both sides.
It’s women and men or females and males. Funny how what you wrote about the genders err I meant sexes is increasingly an acceptable way of communicating in our society.
Aharon, do you really think for a second that I give a flying fvck about what’s acceptable?
If I want to write “women and male counterparts” or “bitchez and big swinging d1cks,” that what I’m going to write.
Thanks for playing.
Ralph, don’t be too hard on him. I think he was just worried about the lack of parallel structure in the sentence: you know how tight-assed about style we are in this forum.
Aharon, do you really think for a second that I give a flying fvck about what’s acceptable?
You certainly do considering how much you bitch and moan about racism. But hey, keep on pretending youre a dangerous rebel.
You are such a biggoted sexxist misoggynist!!! 🙂
Yea Ralph! What he said!!
You mean, what he misspelled. 🙂
Ralph, your sharp enough and cranky enough to be a judge. 😉
I didn’t misspell words in my comment above. I intentionally typed in those words wrong so the spell checker wouldn’t keep my comment from posting 😉
Whatever happened to a jury of YOUR peers? I know about the whole jury selection process and narrowing down jury pool, but damn… One would assume Zimmerman has male friends and coworkers. This smells hinky.
Z-man’s defense is that he was attacked by Martin at night. I think that is a scenario that play’s well with women.
Not if they don’t see it that way
Still “crazy” after all these years!
I’ve discussed this case with some of the best trial lawyers in NYC and they all agreed that — more than most cases — the key to this one was jury selection.
I don’t know if Mark O’Mara likes this jury or not, and he’s certainly not going to tell me.
I also notice a change in the media’s description of George Zimmerman. He is now referred to as a “neighborhood watchman” who “identifies himself as Hispanic.” That’s a big change from the bogus “white Hispanic” aggressive racist lummox narrative that the media was exploiting to fan the flames of racial tension.
But the media is still all about race and nothing but race. Why else would it be referring to the “lighter-skinned black woman, possibly Hispanic” who made the cut?
Dick the Butcher was wrong. He should have said, “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the reporters.”
There’s nothing bogus about white Hispanic as a descriptor, any more than there would be about white Frenchman or black Frenchman. Hispanic is a ethnic/cultural category and black, white, etc. are racial categories. So if your family history is from a country colonized by Spain, and your ancestors were primarily Europeans, you’re a white Hispanic. And so on and so forth for blacks, Asians, etc.
I’m a white African American. Go figure.
Does that make Obama Black Irish?
No. Obama is a white black.
I knew a guy like that. Born in Johannesburg, naturalized citizen. He’s white, an American, and from Africa. So yeah, white African-American would probably be the best description for him too.
When you start looking closely, the labels all get screwy anyway. Are Brazilians Hispanics? By some definitions yes, by others no. If they’re not, then a third of Latin America is populated by non-Hispanics, which seems weird to some people, because the two are highly associated. If they are, then a third of Hispanics don’t speak Spanish, which seems equally weird, again, because of the strong association.
I think “Hispanic” comes from “Hispania.” which if I’m not mistaken is Spain. Brazil was colonized by the Portugese, so no.
Kind of off/on topic. But last week Jamie Foxx was on Jay Leno, and Jay asked about the GZ case since Jamie had been to a vigil for TM and Jamie in his describing the event stated that GZ “murdered” TM. I guess Jamie was there that night to know what really happened!
I’ll never understand why folks idolize celebrities or athletes and feel their opinion is more astute or knowledgeable than the average person?
The link to Crazy Arthur Brown’s song “Fire” was great. I remember that song from when I was a kid.
So they couldn’t find a single Asian person, eh? j/k
Like other commenters here, I find it more strange that ALL the jurors are women. Not a single man… though I’ll go with our resident legal expert Ralph’s opinion that perhaps in this case, the AGE of the jurors might be far more relevant than their gender or their race.
Maybe the men were smart enough to get out of jury duty. 🙂
Gender is a feminist and leftist rainbow colored construct designed to blur the concept or perception that there are two sexes.
Nope, leftists would agree that there are two sexes (with a few rare exceptions), but they would say gender is more of a spectrum.
I guess leftists are smarter and more real than feminists who are always on some weird acid trip.
Currently, CNN is featuring a front-page upper-left-corner picture of GZ next to a young boyish TM.
He was 17 when he died. Even if the guy was Billy the Kid, that’s still boyish to me.
Boyish as in the pic of TM being 12, 13, or maybe 14 and not looking like a big gangsta which he was when he encountered GZ. A 17 year old is only a boy legally. Biologically and in a sane common-sense society teens would be considered young adults ie men and not placed into an extended childhood by the modern matriarchal state.
He looked like he was 17. I’d like to see some pictures of him when he was older than 17, but that’s not going to happen.
Oh, snap, Ralph.
The CNN pic I saw depicted him as around being 13 or so.
Because we can make reliable judgments about individuals based on photographs.
For damns sake, prepare for the jury’s coin flip, nix the mashed potatoes.
Get in fighting form. Either way- you’ll still have to ‘fight’. Later.
“Evil they” won’t leave ya alone. It’s obvious.
When ‘not enough race’ now enters the equation, dude, the JURY isn’t fair.
Face it. BIG duh.
Prepare, sir. And get serious. ½ jury= “emotion driven humans”. Mmm…
Vegas man, you…?
Get’er done-done Geo. Fight on.
If the guy he shot was unarmed then it was at least manslaughter; I doubt if a lot of premeditation went into it. But he shouldn’t walk.
Considering the size of the participants in this incident at the time, their ages, histories and the fact that Zimmerman was a bloody mess afterwards, “disparity of force” comes to mind.
If the jury selection is supposed to be a cross-section of the community, what? There’s nobody living there but women?
Aw, yes, I let my harem winter in Florida.
Regardless of the outcome this could have all been avoided if GZ had stayed in his car. The act of getting out of his car and approaching the deceased may be interpreted as an aggressive action towards an unarmed person. Juries can go either way, and either way this goes it won’t be good for POTG or the country.
“The act of getting out of his car and approaching the deceased may be interpreted as an aggressive action towards an unarmed person.”
You’re Fvckin’ nuts, eh.
For what it’s worth, and that ain’t much, I think GZ goes away for manslaughter. GZ and TM pushed the bounds of stupidity that night and we see the results. TM thought he was bad and GZ was a self appointed Lone Ranger.
Honestly, I doubt society will miss either one of them.
I don’t quite fear a “not guilty” verdict, at least not like the Rodney King acquittal.
Go back a few years. Can you imagine if someone suggested the OJ jury was “too dark”?
In you guys opinions, what was it that made GZ continue the pursuit of TM after being directed to knock it off?
Piss poor judgement. It’s why he’s on trial now.
Go find the full 911 call and listen to the whole thing. You can hear him running the dispatcher asks him if he’s following TM he says yes the dispatcher says we don’t need you to that and the running noise stops. Later after discussing where to meet the police the dispatcher asks for GZ’s info including his address GZ starts to say it and stops saying something along the lines of I don’t know where this guy is at. Saying GZ didn’t listen is just wild claims by msm and race baiters.
One more time, for the cheap seats:
the dispatcher said “We don’t need you to do that”.
That is not ‘being directed’, being ordered, being told, or anything else, to knock it off.
When someone tells me ‘I don’t need you to do that’ my typical response is ‘oh, it’s no trouble’ or ‘I don’t mind’ or something to that effect. It’s definitely not an order.
Z said “OK” and all available evidence says he did knock it off anyway. He probably started heading back to his car. Even if he doesn’t, he had the right to check out things in his neighborhood, and he was never ordered by any authority not to.
Sorry, I’m just tired of hearing people repeat this. It was right in there in the steaming pile of crap along with ‘This guy looks up to no good […..skip a few sentences in the clip……] he looks black” and everything else in the media designed to prejudice people against him. Amazing that it persists endlessly.
From the Orlando Sentinel:
Here are some details about the jurors selected, which were revealed while they were questioned during the jury selection process:
B-29: A nurse on an Alzheimer’s ward who is black or Hispanic, has several children, is married and lived in Chicago at the time of shooting. She said she doesn’t watch the news, preferring reality television: “Right when we got here, I got cable… I love my reality shows.” During jury selection, she said she was arrested once in Chicago.
B-76: A white, middle-aged woman who said Zimmerman had an “altercation with the young man. There was a struggle and the gun went off.” Has been married 30 years, and is unemployed. She formerly worked with her husband in his construction company. Her 28-year-old son is an attorney in Seminole County. She also has a daughter, 26, has been a victim of non-violent crime and rescues “a lot of pets.”
B-37: A middle-aged white woman who has worked for a chiropractor for 16 years and has many pets. She described protests in Sanford as “rioting.” Her husband is an attorney. She has two daughters: A 24-year-old dog groomer and a 27-year-old who attends the University of Central Florida. She used to have concealed weapons permit, but let it lapse. Her husband also has one.
B-51: A retired white woman from Oviedo who has a dog and 20-year-old cat. She knew a good deal about the case, but said “I’m not rigid in my thinking.” She has been in Seminole County for nine years, is unmarried and has no kids. She previously lived in Atlanta, and used to work in real estate. She also ran a call center in Brevard County which she said had 1,200 employees.
E-6: A young white woman and mother who used to work in financial services. She used this case as an example to her two adolescent children, warning them to not go out at night. She has lived in Seminole County for eight years, and is married to an engineer. She was arrested in Brevard County, but said she “was treated completely fairly.” Her husband has guns.
E-40: A white woman in her 60s who lived in Iowa at the time of the shooting. She heard national news reports and recalls the shooting was in a gated community and a teenager was killed. She described herself as safety officer, is married to a chemical engineer and loves football. She has a 28-year-old son who’s out of work. She said she’s very well versed in cell phone technology, and has been a victim of crime.
These are the alternates:
E-54: A middle-aged white man with a teenage stepson who wears hoodies. He recalled seeing photos of Zimmerman’s head and face that show injuries. E-54 loves golf and genealogy, and said he’s been married for five years to a technical engineer. He grew up in Seminole County and has a teenage stepson.
B-72: A young man who is possibly Hispanic, does maintenance at a school and competes in arm wrestling tournaments. He said he avoids the news because he does not want to be “brainwashed.” He grew up in Chicago, is single and an alumni of Phi Beta Kappa. He is very physically active, and was a high school athlete. He said that he doesn’t believe you can determine a person’s strength based solely on their size or how they look.
E-13: A young white woman who goes to college and works two jobs, one of them as a surgical assistant. She heard the shooting was a “racial thing.” She said she could be a fair juror “just because I don’t really know that much.” She is single, has lived in Seminole County for 17 years and attends church. She also owns and rides horses.
E-28: A middle-aged white woman who has worked as a nurse for 26 years. She knew little about the case and has no opinion about Zimmerman’s guilt. She has lived in Seminole County since 1985, and has been married for 28 years. Her husband is a teacher and they have two adult children, 27 and 23 years old.
Some of you pass a lot of judgment.
Ha, both guys ‘pushing the bounds of stupidity’ and TM= badass/ GZ= Lone Ranger.
Photos of GZ’s head bashing & broken nose seems like ZERO evidence to some.
Do you believe that TM was outta control? GZ held back, as the fight went on?
Then as a neighborhood watch Captain, until TM drew ‘first blood’, GZ eventually
pulled his pistol- and then shot? Check evidence. Again.
The jury NEEDS to review the facts. Simple enough. George reacted legally to a life threatening
situation. Good grief. His job WAS to confront any person, regardless of color, into the gated
community area he WAS dispatched to protect.
The 911 call can be damned. They don’t always get it right as “sight unseen” advisors.
THEE Breaking & Entering teenager demographic need not apply. Lone Ranger, eh?
To what end is YOUR head bashing just enough- but, ah… starting to get too much?
Now delirious, you have an instinct to ‘stop the fight’, No? Stopping it with what ya got?
NO? OK. Let TM “keep on bashing.” We’ll wait… and wait…
Still waiting… err, wait-iinnggg…..
As things proceed, should I or YOU be OK with all this? Tell us what to do?
Actually, nobody’s around dude, you’re all alone during the bash. Suffering yet?
Yes, GZ bleeds out from the bashery and won’t last long if he lets it go on, too long.
Goodnight GZ. Or not.
Why in the hell do people often contribute to TTAG?
Or to provoke?
Some of us are confused to all the B.S. of a nasty GZ/TM gone bad. Presser wise.
But not all that much.
I believe GZ will walk, if he fights like a man and knows, he is legal and righteous in his soul.
Bet your money now.
Plizkin. flattering that you’re qouting me. What job did GZ have that he was authorised to confront anybody? He was a part of neighberhood watch. Obsserve and report. Period.
How many people commenting on TTAG have seen the posts about cops stopping and talking to people who are open carrying their guns? The general consensus seems to be that unless some other crime is being committed the cops should mind their own business. Cops that are hired, trained and vetted by society to get into other peoples business.
Yet, here we have GZ. Non paid volunteer watch captain with no real legal standing out questioning and tracking citizens through the neighberhood and he gets a pass for his behaviour by a lot of those same commentors. Why?
“His job WAS to confront any person”
Er, WTF are you babbling about? He wasn’t a sworn peace officer at the time was he?
He took it upon himself to stalk, at night, with a gun, somebody who had every right to be there. The only place GZ was “dispatched” is in your fevered imagination.
Whatever happened after the confrontation, whoever hit who first, GZ was waaaaaay out of line in his behaviour leading up to the event. You don’t get to stalk someone at night and then cry foul when they think you are a psycho up to no good and punch you in the face when you come running at them. Whichever way you break it down the chain of events that got TM killed were put in place by GZ, and at several times he could have stopped his stupid behaviour. I don’t think there’s enough evidence for murder 2, I think that was a stupid charge, but GZ certainly deserves to be up for manslaughter.
Your definition of “stalk” would be interesting.
We are told to be vigilant and observant to anything out of the ordinary. Zimmerman observed someone who appeared to him to be suspicious. He observed by following him for a time and then calling the police–something perfectly normal and correct for the circumstances. He was told to stop following him and…well, I don’t know what happened after that. And neither do you. But no “stalking” in the normal use of the term was involved.
Has anyone here read “The Stranger” by Albert Camus. I had to read it back in my college days. Written in the 1940s, the book concerns a young man who killed another and is brought to trial for it. However, the circumstances leading up to the killing are not the focus of the trial, rather the defendant’s moral character was questioned including such irrelevant things as his reaction to his mother’s death. Of course, the book and the trial were, at the time, considered to be absurd as were many of the literary devices of the existential writers of the early and middle 20th Century. Today, not so much. Zimmerman is being tried based on a legal system and culture driven to absurdity by the obsessive desire to avoid offense to anyone outside the dominant culture. He, like the character in Camus’ book, will not be able to adequately defend himself against such absurdity.
GZ isn’t a sworn peace officer and I’m wrong in asserting his job was to ‘confront’ anyone.
You said GZ “took it upon himself to stalk, at night, with a gun, somebody who had every right to be there.” Let me get this ‘observe and report’ thing straight: midway through GZ’s 911 call, TM ran “down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.” How did GZ know TM “had every right to be there”? Why did TM run? Trespassing is still a misdemeanor in most States. Once out of GZ’s sight what constitutes being ‘way out of line’ prior to the confrontation? You or I don’t know what was said between the 2 individuals. What IS a Neighborhood Watchman’s primary objective? To ‘observe and report’. What’s wrong with carrying at night? GZ drew his legally carried pistol and ended the confrontation with TM in one shot. GZ wasn’t charged by Police. Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee resigned rather than charge GZ. Crime photo evidence shows GZ lost the knuckle bashing. TM’s autopsy toxicology report indicates THC in his system. I believe TM assumed he could take GZ in a fight and didn’t know GZ was armed. TM’s cell phone also shows text and photos of drug use, admission of criminal activity and possible illegal handgun possession.
I fail to see your argument in GZ being fully negligible on all accounts at this time. Asking someone on a rainy night (after they ran away earlier) to ‘please identify yourself, sir’ or ‘do you live here?’ shouldn’t be considered a crime (or ‘way out of line’) for a Neighborhood Watch Captain as such. Like I said- you or I weren’t there to see who confronted who, first. I’m sure GZ isn’t the one “crying foul” either. I’ll bet he and his family want this mess to get over with. Yesterday. If the ‘System’ works and he followed the law, he walks.
It’s unfortunate, our politics of today demands that the shit pot gets a good stir occasionally, because it can. It’s some people’s business to do so. WTF yourself. Over.
Can we just fast forward to the riots, please? These trials are so boring.
The trial that never should have been will either lead to a further miscarriage of justice due to appeasement or to the riots many are hoping for.
Either way, everybody loses. I have little faith in anything anymore.
Maybe I’m just too cynical, but I’d bet good money (but not ammo money) that he gets convicted. Not saying he is or is not guilty, or that the facts and evidence will support conviction, just that the outcome is almost certain at this time. I’d like to be wrong, but I don’t think I am.
” If Zimmerman walks…”
That’s why I decided to I rely on myself to protect my family, and community, if need be.
Learn from the Korean businessmen during the Rodney King riots.
They over charged for sure. However GZ is guilty of being reckless. He followed and got into a confrontation that could have been avoid, we can agree in 20/20 hindsight. With that said there was nothing illegal about GZ walking around his community any more than TM. With that said, the “innocent teen” was really a young man, high on weed, with a sugar fix, over 6’2″, athletic, and no doubt TM got pissed (creepy cracker) and decided he could and did beat George Zimmerman. FIST ARE WEAPONS. At the point Trayvon threw a punch, he was complicit in his own demise. Lessons all around. Don’t play police, and don’t bring fist to a gun fight.
I agree, it’s probably not a very good idea to take a swing at an armed man.
An unarmed teenager was confronted, shot and murdered by an armed overzealous wannabe cop. The general consensus here is that it is OK to kill someone as long as the victim is black. In other words most of you are fine with this and can’t wait for the chance to do what Zimmerman did.
Kill a unarmed black teenager.
Had Zimmerman been a Black man and the teenager been a white Hispanic most of you would of wanted the gun man to be convicted and get the death penalty. All of the heartless comments and hate you have would of been directed to the murderer and not the unarmed black victim who was shot in killed.
I just wanted to state the obvious.
That’s only obvious to your delusional, under-a-bridge-living dumb ass.
There is zero evidence that GZ confronted TM. He did shoot him, but he didn’t murder him, a jury said so.
The general consensus here is that you’re a colossal idiot with his head so far up his ass that your breath smells like Brylcreem (a little dab’ll do ya).
I just wanted to state the obvious.
You clearly don’t value human life unless its the life of someone with your preferred skin color.
Here we go again with the skin color thing. This guy was acting suspiciously, was hopped up and robo-trippin’, and brought a fist to a gun fight. End of story.