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Jerry Waller (right) (courtesy

TTAG reader Gary is up in arms (though not literally) about a story coming out of Fort Worth Texas: Police shoot dead grandfather. 72, while searching the wrong home for burglar, blame ‘lighting’. “The two officers, B.B Hanlon and Arpie Hoeppner, were searching around the home with their flashlights when Waller emerged from his home armed with a handgun, investigating who was walking around his property with flashlights,” reports. Boom. Dead. More than a few members of our Armed Intelligentsia have emailed to point out that cops need a standard protocol for identifying themselves to fellow civilians. Of course, that would take all the fun out of no-knock raids. Anyway, Gary opines . . .

Maybe a factor in LEO behavior should be related to entrance onto PRIVATE PROPERTY. In spite of performing the duties (incorrectly), I’ve see enough of the LEO training to know that they aren’t the Mormon Tabernacle Choir when it comes to “announcing” their presence and LE status. (ONE soloist shouting POLICE, would be better.)

In addition, all the POLICE emblems are on the backs of many uniforms, with ‘badges’ embroidered on the front, etc., in many cases. They approach with multiple flashlights SUREFIRE high-intensity or equivalent, and the home owner is intended to be blinded and confused by the overwhelming police actions. Making visual identification impossible, and with all the shouting!! While the LEO’s may have practiced this maneuver dozens of times, the victim is on the receiving end for the 1st time, and has a natural reaction to the aggressive behavior.

While the LEO’s are approaching, they COULD use both concealment and cover to minimize their exposure to danger, and the victim is standing in the open, with the house lights behind them, facing the unknown threat. While the LEO’s are supplied with training, ammo, and practice on the range, and operate with backup, the victim is a lone man with a cheap flashlight, a single sidearm, no backup, no spare magazine, and has a SENSE of OWNERSHIP and RIGHT on his side. IT’S HIS PROPERTY.!! That ought to count for something in the deliberation.

If I were a betting man, there is a high probability that 1 in 100 LEOs would react the same as the victim, and all would object to THAT outcome.

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  1. After a lengthy investigation (to allow the heat to die down, during which the shooter is on a paid vacation), the police will determine that proper procedures were followed. Because that’s all that ever happens.

  2. He should have had a dog. When the cops shot the dog he would have known they were cops. Anybody have an article anywhere, where a badguy shoots a dog? Nope. Just cops. (End Sarcasm) I love my animals, and do not advocate using them as bait for the police.

    • J.G.

      I don’t advocate using pets as bait for the police either. However, I would much rather see a pet die than a human family member. Sadly, I think there is a lot of wisdom in your statement in spite of the intended sarcasm.

    • I don’t want a cop or a bad guy to shoot my dog either but….

      Two of the reasons I have dogs are as an alarm and to go find an intruder. Searching your house for an intruder is dangerous and the dogs will find them much faster than I ever could.

  3. Whatever happened to driving up with sirens and flashing lights on … and then announcing on their squad car’s loudspeaker, “This is the police.” ?!?!?!?

    Our court system lives by the doctrine, “Better to let 100 criminals go free than to falsely imprison just one innocent person.” How does the same principle not apply to the police? Better for 100 burglars to hear the police coming and scamper away than to kill one innocent homeowner who was responding to intruders in the homeowner’s back yard.

    This sh!t has to stop.

    • How about a CIVIL wrongful death suit against Andy and Barney PERSONALLY. I don’t think they could hide behind the city from that suit.

      • qualified immunity. the legal system protects its own. prosecutors have absolute immunity: they can lie, cheat, suborn perjury, withhold evidence, and cannot be sued.

  4. The fact that this is almost a daily occurrence and that this will be swept under the rug and the victim will be blamed for the actions of the officers, is why I fully support executing all LEO’s. They’re proven time and time again that they are nothing but a terrorist group intent on harming as many innocent people as possible and forcing their victims to pay their salaries while they’re at it.

      • Totenglocke is absolutely right. There is no fixing the system; law enforcement in the United States is throughly corrupt and evil. We need to take out the trash and start from scratch. I know it won’t happen, but it’s sure a nice thought.

      • Don’t worry, I’m well aware of the well developed program for brainwashing people into supporting the police & military, regardless of how many crimes they commit. It’s why kids are repeatedly trained to worship the police & military almost every day in the US – so that when they are adults and actually see what the police are doing, they won’t stand up against them because “the police are the good guys”.

      • Having known many LEOs, both family members and church members, this broad-brush “they are nothing but a terrorist groups intent on harming as many innocent people as possible” is false. And dangerous.
        Are there bad cops? Sure.
        Do cops make mistakes? Absolutely.
        However, most of them are trying to do their job to the best of their ability and training.
        This “us vs. them” rhetoric is dangerous – whether it is Sharpton talking about race or gunowners talking about the police.
        Instead we need to be vocal supportive advocates for better training for our LEOs to prevent incidents like this. I strongly suspect the LEO who shot the homeowner has been conditioned by the folks he’s had to deal with to be scared of any non-LEO around. A common, and dangerous, thing in large-city LEO communities.

        • When they screw up and kill someone who was at home minding their own business, there should be manslaughter charges etc.

        • Having known many LEO’s, both family members, acquaintances, and co-workers, I stand by what I said 100%. They exist to terrorize the American people and teach them to fear the government with the intention of causing Americans to be too afraid of exercising their rights.

          You are letting your feelings for the LEO’s you know cloud your judgement and cause you to make excuses for their never ending stream of attacks in decent Americans.

        • He should have shot the cops. He was perfectly within his right by Texas law. Unidentified armed intruders on his property at night. Would have been a terrible tragedy, sure, but at least he would be able to go home that night.

        • The problem is not them trying to do their job, it is what their job has become. To bust down doors and in so doing, “just following orders, just doing my job”.
          Change the job!

        • Police usually reflect the values of those who hire them, set policy, and give orders. The behavior of an officer from one police department will differ greatly to those in another. I have seen disputes between police departments regarding everything from enforcement policy to turf that had gotten rather intense. One of the features of living in the US is that we do not have a national police force. The point is that only true criminals can paint a broad paint stroke and declare all police as bad, for common crime (murder, rape, burglary, theft, etc.) is the only thing police tend to all agree upon. I have been in a number of conversations with LEOs discussing tactics and behaviors of other police departments and officers, and trust me, they are just as disturbed by these kinds of scenarios as anyone else.

    • “… they are nothing but a terrorist group intent on harming as many innocent people as possible and forcing their victims to pay their salaries while they’re at it.”

      Actually, I think it is much closer to a criminal “protection” racket. The “rules” are strikingly similar:
      (1) Always pay your protection money (taxes).
      (2) Always comply with the muscle (police).
      (3) Never speak critically about their organization (government).
      (4) Don’t harm or steal from anyone under their “protection”.
      (5) The rules don’t apply to the muscle or their organization.
      Break any of the rules and you will have a very bad day.

      Now to be fair, government is nothing more than a protection racket. The primary difference between a government protection racket and a criminal protection racket, however, is that rule number (5) is not suppose to exist under government protection rackets.

  5. This $#!+ has got to stop! The Police are the ones creating the environments where someone is going to die. Near me, the family of a man call the cops because they were concerned about him. They send the $%^$ SWAT team! So his reaction is to barricade himself in his home and eventually commits suicide when he realizes his life is over no matter what he does. And yes, sometimes a cop gets shot too because of these false tactical situations they create. This is insane!

    • Screw it, if I was in that guy’s situation, instead of killing myself I’d take out as many cops as I could before they killed me.

  6. The repercussions for this bullshit has got to increase, or it’s never going to go away. Not ever.

    They like to “make examples out of criminals” who do bad things, pour encourager les autres, so that’s what needs to start happening. I don’t care if it was overzealous enforcement, or just an honest mistake. Make an example of the next dumb shit who kills somebody like this, and then the next, and then the next, until people stop dying like this. Because there’s just no goddamn excuse for it. None.

    Pisses me right the hell off.

    • So what happens when a cop breaks into the wrong house with a no knock and gets killed? For the homeowner, what then?

      • The homeowner gets killed by that cop’s half-dozen friends who followed him through the door. And six months later, it’s determined (by the police, natch) that the police followed proper procedures, and it all goes away, and there’s still two guys needlessly dead.

        • Of course you do. You’ll notice a dramatic difference in tone between your comments and mine. This pisses me off, but I’m not advocating executing all cops, like you have.

        • Because you willingly submit to them. You think that they still have a “divine” right to do whatever they please with no consequences and look at this as a “unfortunate misunderstanding” instead of the downright criminal behavior that it was.

      • You sue his azz into oblivion in a CIVIL trial. Whole different set of rules and the po-po is just another citizen defendant.

        • Because a cop paying you lots of money from his union tort insurance is going to bring your loved one back. If you’re a cop and you kill a human being who is not an active threat, you should get to dance on the end of a rope.

  7. Combine two rookie one year wonders amped-up and looking for a
    burglar, an armed homeowner at night in the dark, and bad things
    will almost certainly be the unfortunate outcome. I don’t understand
    why this guy didn’t stay in his superior place of cover,…his house.
    I’m not going outside to confront flashlights. I’m turning on all of my
    exterior flood lights where I can see them, but they can’t see me.
    Advantage: homeowner. If they’re not the police, they’ll probably run
    for the darkness like roaches. If they are the police, they’ll probably
    realize it’s the homeowner who turned on the lights. Nobody dies.

    • I know you didn’t expressly say it did, but I’m going to reiterate: That doesn’t make it his damn fault.

      • That’s right, I didn’t expressly say it. And for good reason.
        I wasn’t trying to imply he was at fault. He made a choice,
        and so did the prowling police. The outcome usually ends
        up badly for the homeowner, not the police, regardless of
        who is, or is not at fault. What bothers me is, why were
        these two rookies out prowling around by themselves?

      • Everyone in this chain is onto something, use your tactical superiority (but remember if YOU flashbang THEM mistakenly you’re in for a world of hurt). As for multiple flashlights searching my back yard I’d assume it was cops, then I’d try to confirm it from cover. Wondering into a tactical situation you don’t understand will get you killed (still, again). However I agree that the police ought to have policy and training to prevent this sort of thing from happening. If you’re going to skulk around in the night trespassing this sort of thing is going to happen frequently and you should be prepared for it. The flip side of this is that lacking the right approach this will also get officers killed. Whether it’s by someone who shoots first and asks questions later or someone the police fire on and miss (yeah, I know, that never happens) who then returns fire and doesn’t miss, or even someone who is hit but still in the fight. In some of the houses I know the sound of a firefight erupting between the primary defender of the house and unknowns in the back yard is apt to draw fire from others inside the house. Once everyone is shooting it’s very hard to hear someone yelling ‘Police’ assuming they actually remember to do so.
        Anecdotal but I live in a very small town (population less than 3000) with a violent crime rate of zero, yet still the last time there was a commotion in the yard I share with my neighbor we both came out armed (and didn’t even come near to shooting each other). I guess I should thank god my neighbor isn’t a cop (sorry, couldn’t resist). The point is that encountering armed people happens, you can’t just shoot everyone you see with a gun in their hand.

        • ” The point is that encountering armed people happens, you can’t just shoot everyone you see with a gun in their hand.”
          This is the point everyone should be making. Too many times, Cops do something stupid and an innocent dies, and there are NO repercussions.

    • Finally someone gets it. If you truly believe the people in your yard are crooks why would you go outside and put your whole family in danger by opening the door?

        • How’d that work out for him? Just because you have a gun doesn’t mean you should go looking for confrontation. Stay inside, call 911. Don’t go running out in the middle of something you don’t understand.

        • How about LEO learning how to properly find the correct address AFTER obtaining the correct warrant or adhering to probable cause.

        • Chris, I can’t decide if you are a troll or just delusional.

          Nothing this guy did was illegal. And the police shot him. End of story.

          I have a CCW permit, and I carry.

          By your reasoning, I should never leave my house, because the simple act of walking out my front door exposes me to whatever treatment law enforcement thinks I deserve.

          Everything except – “he was on his property and not engaged in any unlawful act” is irrelevant. Deployed soldiers would go to jail if they had shot this guy and he was a local national. No ifs, ands or buts. Court martial – Jail.

          In a just society, these guys would be headed to jail. Want to place bets on whether that happens.

      • Dude was 72, not some tactical TTAG reader. He did nothing wrong. Stay the fvck off his property. A simple concept, really.

        • “not some tactical TTAG reader”

          So, you are implying if he was a “tactical TTAG reader” then he should have been shot?

          BTW, I’m not sure what a “tactical TTAG reader” is. I only have two deployments under my belt. Maybe you can educate me, from your vast store of knowledge?

        • I believe he was making the point that he isn’t privy to all of the “Stay in your damn house”, Turn on the damn floodlights” and “Spy on the intruder from your windows” rhetoric from the armchair quarterbacks here.

          His term “Tactical TTAG Reader” was more sarcasm to make fun of those that were criticizing his judgement after the fact. His implication then would be that the man did nothing wrong and should not have lost his life because a police officer made a mistake and shot him while he was within every right to defend his property.

          If I am wrong Joke, please correct me.

    • I wouldn’t count on a 72YO person to necessarily make the best decision at waking up in middle of night seeing flashlights in his backyard.

  8. If I was a betting man, I’D bet there’s a high probability that more than 1 in 100 LEOs would react the same as this victim!

      • TOUCHDOWN comment.

        A badge and a bus drivers hat doesn’t make you a sharpshooter.

        Just ask all the bystanders that were shot in NYC a while back.

        this is just a smart A$$ comment from me.

        If this kind of behavior by LEOs were punishable with severe consequences (ie major jail time) felony conviction and loss of income among other issues that follow felons then and only then procedures may change.

        Just my $.02

  9. there is got to be something that people can do, and I mean short of kill them. It just feels like thats going to be the only solution left sadly, if cops keep pulling stunt like these.

  10. If someone is in your yard, it is not a good idea to go running outside with a gun. A quick call to 911 to report the prowlers would have saved this man’s life.

        • Even though it’s your yard you still have no reason to go running out confronting people with a gun. Just because someone is in your yard is not justification for lethal force. Inside your house is a different matter, but not the yard.

        • House vs. yard depends on where you live. Some places they are effectively the same thing. You’re still making it sound like it’s his fault that he got shot. And again I say the hell with that. It’s his yard. He’s got more than enough right and reason to go out there if he chooses, based on that fact alone. Too many goddamn times this is happening, and over and over it’s ruled a “good shoot.”

          Two days ago, this guy’s neighbor called the cops after seeing him reach INTO HIS OWN CAR. Cops showed up and ordered him, at gunpoint, to turn around, and when he didn’t do it fast enough, they got nervous and shot him IN HIS OWN GODDAMN DRIVEWAY.

          This shit has got to stop!

        • I am irritated that I have to stop using “Chris” as my name here just to make sure people don’t confuse me with someone who thinks it is OK for police to shoot 72 year old men in their garage…

      • I don’t give two hoots about my yard; I don’t grow prize-winning dandelions or crabgrass. If they break in however, I’ll let the responding officers pick up the body.

    • Too bad he didn’t get to call them to come and get their crooked cops off the floor. When someone is in my yard and house shining lights and running around with guns in the middle of the night, no proper ID, no warrants, they can go to hell.

    • Chris,

      The shooting happened in Forth Worth. Forth Worth is a city in the state of Texas. Texas is a state in the United States of America.

      I state that because you appear to not grasp that fact in your comment. My yard. My right to check out anything in any manner I damn well please. I could walk out in my backyard buck naked if I so choose. My yard. The police have to behave differently. They have to identify themselves. It is not hard. I have a doorbell. If they want to search my backyard in the middle of the night, they have to let me know. It is my yard. They are municipal employees. I am not.

      • If the police believe a burglary suspect ran into your backyard they DO NOT have to let your know. If you see someone in your backyard, running out with a gun is the worst thing you could do as evidenced by this scenario.

        • If cops enter my property, especially my curtilage, without notifying me that they are in fact LEO’s, then when I haul out my weapon(s) and start shooting… I’m perfectly within my rights to say “There was an intruder, I had a reasonable fear of death or GBI, and well, that was that.”

          See how that sword cuts both ways?

      • I think Chris isn’t questioning the legality of the man’s actions, just his tactics. He had every right to go outside and investigate. However, that puts him at a disadvantage. Especially in the dark. When things go bump in the night; arm yourself, call the cops, and take a defensible position. If it becomes life or death situation, you want it to be at a location of your choosing, not theirs. Inside, you have concealment/cover, plus free-fires zones to help with your defense. Outside, you have less control of the situation.

    • Worse yet. He was in his garage that was attached to his home. He was still in his home when he was killed. How the hell do you see him being at fault?

      Follow the link and watch the report. The man’s home has an attached garage. He was still under his roof when he was killed.

      • Ok, but if the police were in the yard and he backlit himself and pointed or brandished the gun? The cops can make a case that they felt threatened. I still say he should have stayed inside, called 911 to report “prowlers”.

        • They were prowlers, and were likely their under armed trespass because the did not have a warrant and probable cause was very very thin. On top of that, they were stalking around in the dark in blacked out tacti-cool clothing.

          What makes you think the bastards wouldn’t have battering rammed the door withing seconds anyway?

      • Even if he was outside his garage, he was within the legal definition of “curtilage.” Do a search to learn about the legal cases concerning the area immediately outside your home.

        • I am familiar with the concept of the curtilage. The curtilage has nothing to do with this case. Being in your curtilage does not give you immunity from the consequences of putting others in fear for their life. If he had just stayed inside and called 911 he would still be alive and the cops might have been able to move on and catch the burglary suspect.

        • Well, I suppose every bunch of tyrants needs a bunch of fawning sycophants, and it appears you’ve found your place of comfort in this situation.

        • Chris your arguments are very reminiscent of gun banners/grabbers. Just because this guy had a gun doesn’t mean he was gonna come out shooting like some sort of bloodbath/wild west shoot out that the antis always claim will happen when people own and use guns. It seems like the gentleman wanted to make sure his property was alright, which is his damn right, and wanted something for protection since he’s in his seventies, and swinging a bat probably isn’t his best line of defense. Your cowardly dependence on government institutions by suggesting that he just call the police and hide inside his home is the best policy when something happens to your home and property to me is pathetic. Stay inside and watch honey boo, and let big brother take care of it.

        • Many of the libs tolerate this police activity since they think the DNC controls everything along with Barry. The hard core Gun Banners are o.k. with this kind of police shooting because they think anyone with a gun should have it taken or be shot.

  11. I thought the story where the Call of Duty statue got shot up was hilarious. But I am begining to rethink that feeling.

  12. I’ve had ENOUGH; people here have had ENOUGH. All God’s chilluns had ENOUGH! It’s PAST TIME these SWAT turds paid for their evil and their negligence.
    Sometimes I believe they go OUT looking to kill a “civilian”. PRISON TERMS are PAST OVERDUE! Cops paying victim settlements OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET is PAST OVERDUE!!

    Take 45% of their salaries, their pensions, their Social Security! No taxpayer fundings!

    • I agree and they shouldn’t be allowed to hide behind their union like it is a personnel issue when it is an malpractice in LEO and criminal activity. They should be charged with manslaughter. Period.

    • Forget settlements – sue them. And win. Then set up a payment plan: 75% of their income for life. Civil juries love this stuff, especially those who have ever gotten a summons or ticket. A second year law student could win a case like that if it hit the media.

      • All that suing them would accomplish is to transfer money out of the pockets of the whole of the taxpayers (of which the deceased was one, having been a homeowner) into the widow’s pocket.

        There will be no judgements levied against the heroic cops, because after all, they were “just doing their jobs.” They have sovereign immunity, and therefore no culpability attaches to them in the performance of their job.

        • They have some immunities, but they are qualified. The real issue is that the individual police officer, if only negligent, is entitled to indemnification from the public entity, so he suffers no out-of-pocket loss. On the other hand, if it is intentionally wrongful conduct, damages may attach–but since such conduct will get the guy fired, there probably won’t be a pot to pay the damages.

  13. Seems to beg putting a notice on the entry locations that ” Unannounced entry will result in armed resistance.” That would be interesting.

  14. I’m so glad I am not one of those cops. I would not be able to live with myself after killing a man in this situation.

  15. Here we go with more of those Warrior Cops. I think every state should adopt an Indiana style law so that when people have to drop these punks, they are paid for like any other misguided thug.

  16. I think it is time to put an end to these SWAT teams. In the words of Obama and Biden, “if it only saves one life, then it is worth getting rid of them.”

  17. This is the second shooting to happen in Ft Worth that involved officers shooting a homeowner on their own property this year.

  18. Not to mention the police are always armored. They should be required to ‘take a punch’ before swinging back.

    Our military has their hands tied with ROE requiring they not respond with force, often until multiple rounds have been fired at them. (not sure the exact details, but they are certainly more restricted than any LEO) And that is to deal with people outside the protection of our Bill of Rights. Something seems out of balance here. In America it is open season on civilians, criminal and law abiding citizen a like, but our military has to sit on their hands while being shot at by combatants in a war zone.

    • That’s what I find infuriating about these bad shoots. I would have gone to jail if I had shot an Iraqi in that scenario. Hell, we let the Iraqis be better armed than this guy was allowed to be. Every household was allowed an AK (full auto) for defense.

      Is there an organization that will try to stop this [email protected] legally? The NRA does nothing.

  19. I think we need to pass a new amendment to the constitution that requires officers to PROVE they clearly identified themselves as PO’s before using lethal force on private property and to verify the address of said property before approaching. Sort of like SD laws in Ohio but for cops on private property. I mean its to that point that we need an amendment to the freaking constitution to tell these meat heads that killing people on their own property, for doing nothing illegal, all because you can read get a FREAKING NUMBER RIGHT is unconstitutional…I mean this is life or death, your job is simple GO TO THIS ADDRESS. Read the mailbox, the garage door, the numbers on the street or door, something. If there had been bad guys across the street they could have gunned down these two officers from behind without much trouble….

    • According to the parent story, the home that the LEOs were supposed to investigate was across the street. I’ve also seen a story recently where a home was “foreclosed” upon by a bank, and its contents were removed. Homeowner came home after being away to find a basically empty home. That story reports that the homeowner was told that GPS led the bank personnel to the homeowner’s house. The house they were supposed to go to was across the street.

      These incidents should have never happened.

      While addressing varies depending upon where you are, there is at least one thing that been the same everywhere I’ve been: odd addresses are on one side of the street, and even addresses are on the other. While one town may differ from another as to which side odd addresses are located, I’ve never seen it vary within the same town.

      Wrong side of the street? Never should happen.

      • The odd versus even addresses being on different sides of the street is not universal, even if exceptions are rare. My house for example is the only odd numbered address on my side of the street. For quite a while, everytime I got a new FedEx driver I had trouble with the first delivery.

        • Anyone who has been to (lost on) a military post is intimately familiar with random sequences of building numbers.

    • Chris:

      This happened a few miles from my house. Your comments above reflect a lack of information.

      #1. Waller was investigating someone in his yard. Few, if any of us, would expect to find police officers who shoot first. Even most “bad guys” do not do that.

      #2. Two rookie cops. Bad decision by FWPD to put them out there together.

      #3. Here’s the kicker. The call for suspected burglars was across the street. These two officers did not even go the right house. Lightening was not mentioned in the first statements from police. That is a new wrinkle.

      #4. They will be exonerated. They are still on the street per the article in the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

      #5. This behavior is not unusual. Take the time to research the shooting record of police in the last 5 years to any other 5 year period in the last 50. Easy to do, google it. If that does not open your eyes to the changes in LE, nothing will.

      • Ok, so the cops made a mistake about the address. That happens. He still should have stayed inside and reported what he thought were prowlers by calling 911.

        • For God’s sake, Chris… are American citizens automatically to be considered police targets if we take any action other than “sheltering in place” while calling 911? You seem to have no other suggestion besides hiding and awaiting our blue clad saviors!

        • “That happens.”

          THAT HAPPENS?!

          I don’t usually wish ill on people, but I seriously hope something bad happens to you out of the blue, so I can shrug and say “That happens.”

        • In the mean time, 8 to 20 home invaders have the opportunity to bust through the door. Leo Storm Troopers do that you know while often yelling eff this, eff that, we gonna effing shoot you.

        • ..I’d like to say that I am shocked at the thoughts and ideas expressed on this thread..but sadly..I am not….the issue here is not “safety”…or being “smart tactically”….but of maintaining our LIBERTY… all do recall that those Police are supposed to work for US..and follow the rules as laid down by US… therefore …in spite of the old man’s death…the Police are responsible for the death and they should be paying the price…I think sentencing them to life in prison…with parole possible after a ten year stretch at hard labor…maybe then…cops would understand the idea of LIBERTY..and who they work for…and who’s rules they have to follow?

          And please..dear Chris….please go out into the world and get some experience…you sound so naive?


          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • RJ, what’s wrong with considering safety and tactics? I get from your comment that this is only about LIBERTY for you. Being able to consider multipe sides of an issue is important. Only considering one issue tends to result in poor choices and in this case poor choices on both sides that resulted in a man’s death.

        • SAS2008……I agree with you…nothing wrong with considering tactics and the intelligence of choosing to go outside….however…the key issue is the man’s Right to choose to go outside…and especially to be free of harm delivered by Agents of the State…who were behaving illegally…for making that choice? Everything after that is just dressing for the Window of Liberty…

          …and the old “we have to go home at night too”…bit from the cops is just pure BS…they use that for every infraction that they make…and just expect us to accept it? Well…boys and girls…you were the folks…whom…when you signed up for the job…and took the oath to do that job properly…it was you who accepted the responsibility for adherence to the rules. The Old Man ended up paying a price that he should not…because the Cops did not recognize the Right to Liberty?

          Oh, and if you think about it…they claim to be bigger idiots than just shooting a wrong man…they couldn’t even find the right address…in an area they are paid to patrol?



          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • Forgive me for butting into your conversation, but I can’t seem to stop myself!!
          Suggesting this death was an unfortunate accident, caused by “poor choices on both sides”, MIGHT fly if we were discussing an encounter between two homeowners shooting across the street at each other without first identifying their targets.
          But this encounter was between a 72 year old man standing in his own garage and two “highly trained” sworn law enforcement officers. Did Mr. Waller choose “poor tactics”? Okay – I’ll concede that point. Does it matter? No. Not one damn bit.
          Let the officers be held to and judged by the same standard as are the rest of us. Without a higher standard being upheld, citizen deaths will continue to elicit little more than “Oops, Sorry!” from law enforcement.

        • Swobard, I never suggested this was an accident. I am not sure how you are getting that from my words.

          “Did Mr. Waller choose “poor tactics”? Okay – I’ll concede that point. Does it matter? No. Not one damn bit.”

          It matters to Mr. Waller, or a least to his widow. He is dead and would likely be alive if he had not made that choice. But does in matter in a criminal or civil case against the cops? My guess is probably not. What should matter is the same reasonable man standard that we should all be held to when justifying our use of deadly force. Would a reasonable and prudent person in the exact same situation, knowing what the defendant did at that time, do the same thing? I don’t have enough facts to make the decision here. That is a question for a jury.

          All parties made mistakes or poor choices, however you want to word it. That does not consitute an accident. The combinations of those poor choices resulted in Mr. Waller’s death. He has already paid the price for his choice. The police should be held accountable for their choices and actions. The cops should be subject to any criminal and civil review and suits that could apply. This is not an either/or situation. Both sides were either stupid or irresponsible or maybe both.

      • Hey, when the LAST guy in Fort Worth got shot in his OWN GODDAMN DRIVEWAY (pretty sad that I can say ‘last guy,’ isn’t it?), weren’t the cops in that case also rookies, and wasn’t the address they were supposed to be responding to also across the street? Or was just next door, as if that’s any better?

  20. With this becoming SOOOO common one must ask oneself if it is just poor police skills or Intentional Murder by Cops. Under the Patriot Act this would be plausible.
    PS I detest AJ and all he spews

  21. This type of thing is actually one of the reasons that I keep my home defense gun, an AR-15, loaded with FMJ rounds (I live in the country, overpenetration into a neighbor’s house isn’t an issue). If I unwittingly confront some mistaken police officers in my house in the middle of the night, I want something that will penetrate handgun-rated ballistic vests, and kill the officer(s). I don’t want my rounds to bounce off, only to have him return fire and kill (unarmored) me.

    I don’t want to be the fatal mistake of a stupid officer. If some sh*t-for-brains makes that massive of a mistake, he should be the one to die, not me. I’d rather defend myself in court than be laying in the morgue.

    • My home def long gun of choice is a 12 gauge with buckshot, but I really haven’t thought about having to defend myself against home invaders in body armor. My guess is even lighter armor would stop a load of 00. At close range it would probably feel like getting kicked in the chest by a mule, though.

      • I have seen in person a demonstration of a ballistic panel stopping a 12 gauge slug. It would bruise the crap out of the person being shot, but it did not penetrate. I have been kicked in the chest by a steer, luckly with no broken bones, and I think the 12 gauge looked worse.

      • AR500 plates (which are what you put in a plate carrier if you are using steel plates) can stop as many as 6 rounds of .308. Buckshot is doing nothing to that. It might be more effective versus ceramics, tho.

        • The vast, vast majority of cops wear type IIIA soft armor though. Even with trauma plate inserts, a 5.56 FMJ is going to zip right through. Steel core ammo would have even less trouble.

          A SWAT team would definitely be wearing hard rifle plates though, which would laugh at my AR.

  22. Hey now, all you little people getting worked up, you’re getting way out of line. You’re missing the “big picture” here.

    The most important thing was that the two rookie cops got to go home at the end of their shift and they’ll live to collect their underfunded taxpayer-backed pensions. That’s what is most important and paramount for all you petty little taxpayers to remember in this situation. So what if a law abiding and upstanding citizen got ventilated and was hauled out of his own residence in a body bag? To quote a hyper-smart Ivy-League public policy genius, “At this point, what difference does it make?

    This death was such a small price for the public to pay for an important training opportunity for our valiant heroes in law enforcement! We all know a priori with a likelihood asymptotically approaching 1.0 that the investigation will find absolutely nothing wrong with the officers’ conduct here. High-fives will be traded in the squad room upon the conclusion of the dog-n-pony-show hearings, and there will be many doughnuts with premium coffee enjoyed by all. Your valiant heroes in law enforcement will do their level best during the hearings to bite their lips and look terribly serious and somber. Admire their restraint, because what they really want to do is laugh in your faces. Their leadership will nod their heads with serious gravitas and intone in meaningfully somber tones what a “tragedy” this was, but will remind the public in a stern tone with a wagging finger that nothing was done in conflict with policy. A “civilian” displayed a gun! Heroic officers were possibly in danger of losing continence, and we can’t possibly have that, can we?

    So you taxpayers (excuse me: “civilians”) should just stifle yourselves and cough up your tax revenues on time, with a smile and boot-licking gratitude for your public service heroes.

    For those of you who are so dense as to not recognize sarcasm, the above paragraphs were indeed sarcasm.

    Now that I’ve got that bit of snark out of my system, allow me to make a serious comment:

    I’ve been warning LEO’s for years that one day, you’re going to turn around and realize that the majority of the public hates your guts with a flaming passion. On that day, it will be too late, and there will be no recourse, no retreat and nowhere to hide. There will be nothing that you LEO’s can do to retrieve your reputations, regardless of whether you’re one of the “good guys” or one of the thugs. If you wear or wore the uniform, you will be an object of the wrath of a seething and seriously pissed off public.

    As you have sown the wind, you shall reap the whirlwind.

    • Your logic above is why I think that if it comes down from high up that local cop are supposed to go around and gather up the arms of average law abiding citizens the cops will revolt and say Hell No! It would not take the deaths of too many cops just trying to earn a decent living before they stop collecting up guns.

        • You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension, probably because you’re a public sector employee.

          The salient point is this:

          “… apologized during a Morgan County court hearing after pleading guilty to a felony criminal recklessness charge in the March 2009 death of Jason Breisch, 35.”

          Plead guilty to a felony? He’s not a gunsmith anymore. His FFL is gone. He can’t even own guns any more.

          Cops kill citizens? They don’t even get their pay docked.

    • Very well put. And cops aren’t taught the concept of “positive ID” before shooting someone? As in, that dude with the gun is actually posing a lethal threat to me, not just brandishing a gun?

      • All I want them to do is start with basics:

        1. Show up at the correct address. Read the address on the house, street sign, etc, and then read the address on the warrant in hand. There have been an increasing incidence of cops barging into a house for which they had no warrant, because the warrant they held in their hands was for a house across the street, or even on a completely different street than the one they’re standing on.

        2. In this case, notify the occupants that they’re seeking someone in the yard. This should be SOP, for the safety of both the homeowner and the cops. It takes only a few moments for one of the two cops to knock on the door and say “Sorry to disturb you sir/ma’am, we’re seeking an intruder in your yard.” Suddenly there is no situation. Would have taken all of, what 30 to 90 seconds?

  23. At a certain point, it becomes impossible to tell the difference between the most despicable street gangs and the best cops.

    We’ve reached that point.

    There will be no end to this savagery unless and until these murderers in uniform do not go home at night. Arm up, boys and girls. Arm up.

    • I’ve been saying for awhile, as long as the police insist that anyone not employed by the government is “the enemy” and maintain their “shoot first, ask questions never” policy, that Americans should have a “shoot on sight” policy towards police. A law abiding citizen on his own property legally possessing a gun? The police instantly shoot to kill. Our policy towards LEO scum should be no different.

      • “Shoot on sight” is not the same as self defense. I don’t trust cops, I don’t want to be around cops, but I’m not shooting someone just because they’re wearing a uni.

  24. This is a terrible tragedy. The family of this murdered Homeowner must be in agony. If these two Policemen go without severe consequence, it will be even worse, if that’s possible.

  25. Well, you guys sure have it figured out. Let’s kill all the cops. They’re all murdering New World Order thugs. Get rid of Law Enforcement all together. That’ll do it. We can all handle our own problems. Forget evidence collecting and due process. Like Dyspeptic Gunsmith said, just fire away at anyone in your curtilage. For those who don’t know that’s the area directly around your home. Yeah just shoot through the window or door. That’ll fix ’em. Don’t worry if it’s an actual threat or not. Just murder anyone in your yard. There’ll be no more police so you won’t be in trouble. Just watch out for the vengeful family of the drunk teenager you just shot. You guys are just giving the Antis more ammo to prove that us peasants can’t be trusted with guns. And as for me being a sycophant, Dyspeptic, name calling is what the loser in an argument resorts to when his reasoning fails.

      • Anytime I hear “Libtard”, “Teabagger”, “Demonrat”, etc. I already know the person I am talking with has no interest in debate. They just want to argue for argument’s sake. When people name call it takes away weight from their other words.

    • Sorry Chris, but you’re getting me plain old, ordinary pissed off! Your idiotic summation of the arguments of who don’t buy fully into hiding in our bedrooms while awaiting properly anointed LEO’s to arrive is both insulting and inaccurate. Continuing to make excuses for poor training, bad tactics, and the maddening lack of consequences when LEO’s kill innocents is, in your case, eroding the ‘bank of trust’ I typically extend to all TTAG participants.

      • Ok. So you’re pissed? Big deal. All I’m saying is just because you have a gun, going outside and confronting people in your yard might not be the smartest way to handle the situation. If they’re actively trying to get into your house, shoot them, but not in the yard. Going outside and being confrontational is only inviting trouble.

        • No. What you’re saying is that it’s perfectly okay for cops to kill innocent citizens, and do so without meaningful consequences. There is NO evidence this man behaved in any way “confrontational”. Unless… unless you’re arguing that checking out strange activities by unknown persons at 1:00 am is now to be considered ‘confrontational’, and justification for being shot at taxpayer expense. You’ve left the land of reason & logic and entered Bloomberg territory.

        • Snobard I am in no way saying any of the stuff you just made up. If someone is in your yard you are not in immediate danger. If you go outside you change that. Why open the door and place yourself and your loved ones in more danger? Just because you have the right doesn’t mean it’s the best course of action. Also Bloomberg sucks.

    • The clear, unequivocal fault here lies with the LEO’s. The cops had no cause to be around that homeowner’s house, period. They weren’t where they were summoned. They didn’t notify the homeowner. If the cops had actually thought there might be someone in the homeowners’ yard, their first course of action should be to notify the homeowners what is going on – that the police are searching for someone in the yard. The homeowner would then know who is outside and know to keep his nose on the inside of a locked door.

      These cops chose to be HS/LD and not bother telling anyone. These cops chose to not bother confirming the address, so they weren’t “chasing someone into the yard,” they were the intruders in the yard.

      I called you a sycophant because you are being the very definition of a sycophant. You’re putting the blame for this on the person who is without any blame. A homeowner who didn’t call the cops and wasn’t notified by the cops that they’re in his yard has a reasonable expectation that there those people sneaking around in his yard are not cops.

      My example of how that sword “cuts both ways” above is that when the cops want to claim “reasonable fear” for when they see a homeowner with a gun in his hand, the homeowner can make the same claim when he sees some unknown person with a gun in hand, pussyfooting around the direct perimeter of his house.

      Per the above, the absent any notification, the homeowner has a reasonable belief that unexpected people in his yard at night are not cops. How to avoid that? Easy: the police can exhibit some competence. Start with a) showing up at the correct address, where the occupants are actually expecting the cops to show up, and b) notify the occupants of any house before playing HS/LD in their yard. If the cops in this situation had done only (b), they not only would have avoided the fatal shooting of an innocent man, they would have also realized that they were at the wrong address and gotten quickly on their way to the people who actually called for the police to show up. As an aside, I wonder whether the people who called for the police ever saw any response that night? The entire situation reeks of epic incompetence.

      But you’re ready to dispense with any requirement of competence on the part of the LEO’s. It’s all the fault of the homeowner, who we should remember is an ad valorem taxpayer and is contributing to the funding of the salaries and benefits of the people who killed him.

      • I am the very definition of a sycophant huh?
        syc·o·phant [ síkəfənt ]
        fawning flatterer: a servile or obsequious person who flatters somebody powerful for personal gain

        Nothing of the sort. You should look up them big, smarty-pants words before you use them incorrectly. I never said the cops didn’t make dumb mistakes, but self defense only requires a perceived threat. They perceived a threat. The homeowner did not. Someone in your yard does not constitute a perceived threat. Unless they are shooting at the house or setting it on fire, etc. If he would have stayed in the house and he would still be alive. Did the cops make mistakes? Sure. But in the end running out with a gun in the middle of situation you have no idea what’s going on is a horrible idea. The police don’t have to notify you they are in your yard because it’s not illegal for someone to be in your yard unless it’s posted “No Trespassing” even then that doesn’t always apply to police. You know as well as I do that you don’t really own your property. You only rent it from the state. Don’t pay your property taxes and see what happens.

    • BTW, you do realize that in Texas, you can use lethal force to prevent theft or “criminal mischief” at night, right?

      See Texas Penal Code 9.42.

      • Do you really think that stealing property or criminal mischief is worth killing someone over? Would you kill someone for stealing your lawnmower or smashing your car windows? Of course you would. What am I thinking? I read your posts. As for me, I don’t want to live with the guilt of killing a 16 year old for a $100 worth of property.

        • I didn’t say I’d do it. In Wyoming, we can’t use lethal force to protect property as a matter of statute.

          I’m telling you what the law in Texas says. Clear, black-letter statute law.

          The people in Texas have used lethal force to protect property. It’s been tested in court, and the law upheld. Many Texans I’ve spoken with on these issues know their law. And they’re quite proud of this wrinkle in Texas law. From what I know of Texas law, I’d never go skulking around someone’s property at night, regardless of whether I’m wearing a badge.

          The homeowner was within his right (and, to hear some Texans talk, within normal Texas expectations) to be confronting people outside his home at night. You want to be obtuse on the issue and defer everything to the cops, who were so incompetent that they couldn’t even find the correct address (and, BTW, subsequent news coverage indicates that the police never went to the address where the alarm went off that night), the cops instead skulked around a guy’s yard who was in no way involved, and shot him in his garage. They claim “low light,” but they seem to have been able to see well enough to put six into the guy’s chest.

          You’re going to continue to excuse this behavior, so we’re now pretty certain of where you stand.

        • Ok. Going to try this one last time. Put yourself in the cop’s place. You have put yourself in the homeowner’s so now try to see it from the other perspective. Smart people can do this if they try. You’re checking out an alarm, burglary call, etc. You’re walking in the dark, albeit in the wrong yard but that doesn’t constitute criminal negligence. You’re walking along trying to make sure there is no crime being committed, because that’s your job, when all of a sudden someone with a gun surprises you. Did the homeowner point the gun? Wave it around? Shoot off a round? I don’t know, but obviously the light was good enough for them to see he was armed. Mistakes were made on both sides. A tragic incident all the way around. But does this really warrant calls for killing all cops and crazy Alex Jones New World Order rhetoric? That’s the kind of talk the Antis love to hear from gun owners. I used to tell people to check out this site if they were on the fence about gun ownership. I hope they aren’t reading these comments.

        • Let’s say, for the sake of your point, that I put myself in the position of the cops. First thing, I would not be at the wrong address. I might not get the address right the first time, but I’m going to notice things like the street number on the mailbox as I’m walking up the driveway, turn around and make every effort to be at the correct address before approaching someone’s front door.

          Second, I’m not going to start rooting around in someone’s yard without first telling them, face-to-face at their door, who I am and why I’m there, regardless of the state (but in Texas, the reasons are much more pressing). In this particular case, I have no intruder or suspect in my view. I cannot claim “pursuit” because there is no one I’ve seen to pursue. I have no warrant. Since I’m a guy who pays rather close attention to legal details, that means I have to engage the property owner or resident of the property and ask for permission to enter the property, because without a warrant or emergent situation that I can see, I’m trespassing, even with a badge on.

          Now, the other reason why I’d engage the property owner is to check on the welfare of the occupants. If the alarm went off because of a robbery (ie, intruder stole something from an occupied house), then the higher priority is to insure the occupants are OK, and that no intruder is within the dwelling. As you like to keep pointing out, property isn’t worth a life – so if an intruder gets away because I’b busy checking on the safety of the occupants of a house reporting a break-in, then so be it.

          The third reason for my checking in with the residents of the house is a fail-safe: If I’m at the wrong address, I’ll find out quickly and be at the right house faster than flailing around out in the dark.

          Lastly, if I see a 70+ year old man, probably in his PJ’s, standing there, pointing a gun at me, I’m going to seriously hesitate to shoot him. It’s a pretty sure bet he’s the homeowner, because it’s a pretty nice neighborhood, because 70+ year old males don’t tend to go out breaking into properties at night in their PJ’s. That’s just my life experience talking. Old men tend to not get into a whole lot of trouble – at least not with property crimes. If there was a 22 year old female in a tight dress, a red sports car, whiskey, cigars and some Viagra involved? OK, now some old men get into trouble.

          Breaking and entering and setting off an ADT alarm? Yea, see, that’s kinda out of their league. Old men who steal do it with lawyers and briefcases. My first reaction upon seeing a 70+ year old man holding a gun is to assume he’s the resident or owner of the property. I’m going to hesitate to shoot, and try to get him to realize I’m a cop. I’m going to give him the best possible benefit of the doubt, because I’m wearing a vest, he’s not, and I signed up for this sort of thing. It’s part of the job.

        • Taking one the vest is not part of their job! I can’t believe I just read that. That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. First off, vests can fail. Secondly they only work if the shot hits you in the vest. Wounds on the rest of your body can kill or permanently maim you so why would you let someone shoot first? How can you think that you have ANY credibility after making a statement like that? Wow. Just wow.

    • How about we just get rid of the cops that screw up by charging them with the appropriate crime or banning them from being a LEO. The latter would help get rid of the Rambo wanna be types like U.S. Marshal Wiggins in the incident in Sarasota recently.

      • I agree with that. If criminal wrongdoing can be proven, then by all means prosecute. They are not gods and if they commit crimes either through intent or neglect they should be held liable.

    • Yes Chris…you mean the lab-type crime fighting like the NCIS, Law & Order and CIS type law enforcement? Oh…you mean you are not aware of the thousands of cases having to be dismissed and put back into the court system because of the lying, forging and production of false evidence? Yes..really..let us rely upon the second biggest group of human liars (Politicians & Priests being tied for first place)

      Yes, please…let us rely on these proved-liars to produce evidence that we can take to an impartial judge..(like the one in the Zimmerman Case last week)…and have “The System” police itself….? Ha…you are naive eh? No Chris…what we need are people who believe in the meaning of liberty..and know how to defend it..maintain it…and educate people like yourself…as to why concepts like personal liberty are so important to your personal well-being..and that of any kids or grand-kids that you may bring onto the planet…it is really sad that you have no real to the methods and motivations behind most of these acts….


      RJ O’Guillory
      Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

      • Thousands of cases, huh? Where is your source for this outrageous number or did you just make it up? If we can’t trust the police to handle criminal cases who would you suggest?

  26. Beyond all of the points that have already been brought up here, what is dismaying to me is that this happened back on May 28 – two months ago! We are just hearing about it now and not from any of the MSM sources. It’s not particularly surprising, but very very disappointing. As for the organization that needs to start fighting this, it might end up having to be the ACLU. They have already begun an investigation into the militarization of police and need to jump on this.

    I think a clever lawyer could make the argument that the homeowner’s civil rights were violated. Let’s get Holder’s department of injustice to look at this case. It’s certainly more of a real one than the Zimmerman case.

    What needs to happen is that someone needs to set up a site and start collecting these stories in one place.

    • It did make the news pretty widely when it first happened Jim. TTAG is just bringing it back up again because nothing is being done.

      • Oh, is this the same guy? I thought this was another instance of a homeowner being shot. You’ll excuse my confusion, but in my defense shit like this happens every day, it seems, so another instance seemed as likely, if not more so, than a duplicate posting.

        I retract my comments about this being the second one, then. Everything else still stands. This happens way too often, and it needs to stop.

  27. Graybeard,
    You got it wrong. There were approximately 70,000 no knock invasions by law enforcement into homes last year, 20 years ago there were 2,000. (USA Today). The idea is that no knock will surprise the bad guy and prevent them from flushing drugs down toilets, grabbing guns, blah, blah, blah.

    The Supreme Court says it’s okay. It is not. Too many of these guys are former military (or think they are). They ARE at war with innocent citizens. Take a look at the botched raid map (by scrolling down) at The map is woefully outdated.. why not just wait bad people out? Nope, we gotta roll cause we got the gear.

    The police are at war with us (innocent citizens) and the usual investgations of innocent people dying is oh well, we’ll recheck our procedures.

    • It’s a shame when a bunch of law-abiding gunnies begin to wonder if cops or bad guys are more dangerous to their health when minding their own business round the house. The whole home carry debates: who are we tooling up for? Bad guys or cops? Or same thing?

  28. There are actually some simple steps that would help reduce these incidents. Start by raising the minimum age to become a LEO to 30. Maybe 28. That has the added benefit of cutting into the amount of double dipping in state and local pension funds. Raise the IQ standard. Here in Connecticut, there was a case a couple of years ago involving a guy who wanted to become a cop but was turned down because he was considered TOO smart. Should that even be possible? How about a return to revolvers and shotguns for patrol officers and leave all the tacti-crap to the commando cops? Was sitting in line at a spot check awhile back ( end that crap too) and I figured that depending on wether or not he loaded his mags full, he was carry 60 to 64 rounds of ammo. Why? Why would he need to tote around that much every day? Because the mentality thats taken over almost every PD in the country. Its the combat mindset or whatever term you would like to choose. Could be headed for a firefight on any call. Best tool up. And that carries over into everything. Its revolting to watch our local PD do motor vehicle stops. Usually a minimum of two cops and of course one of them has to lurk in the executioners spot on the passenger side. Then ya see they have some middle aged woman with kids pulled over. There needs to be more foot patrols like the old days. Yes in some cases its no longer practical, but where its feasable I think its a valuable resource to help prevent LEOs from becoming insulated from the folks that are paying their salaries. Just my opinion but I think ending foot patrols in a lot of places started the divide between law enforcement and the public. I’ve taken up my shate of space here and I could keep going but my ladt thought is the same as many others have expressed. Start making leos subject to civil or judicial penalties for certain mistakes. Not to say hammer someone for a simple error, we all make mistakes. But anything involving a loss of life such as this should demand a severe punishment…and a permanent ban from working in law enforcement.

  29. A few people that I knew became cops..a few became pretty skilled military officers in MARSOC. Here are my thoughts on why these shootings constantly happen.

    1. Guys that become LEO tend to be the kids that were picked on in school and couldn’t hack it in the military. So, and I’m painting with a broad brush but I do see it time and again, they have a chip on their shoulder.

    2. They have poor training. In the case of an acquaintance of mine who became a DC cop they have horrible firearms training. I would not let him shoot by himself at the range his pistol proficiency was so low. This is precisely the kind of individual who will waste someone in the dark if they get scared by a gun. I can’t beleive they will trust this idiot to carry a Glock just about everywhere while a regular citizen who is probably better trained and practices more…can’t.

    3. The guys I know who went into the military especially MARSOC and Rangers are cool cats, much more intelligent than the LEO type…and far more highly trained. They will not waste the first guy they see in the dark with a gun. Your average army grunt will though. Again it comes down to training.

    Law enforcement agencies need to provide a higher level of training to these guys. If you keep sending out inexperienced guys with guns accidents are going to happen. They also need to get out of the “I’m coming home at night so I’m going to waste anyone I see holding a gun”, mindset. Not even the military operates this way, you just can’t go around wasting people.

  30. Actually I forgot one thing I really wanted to add. One of my neighbors sons was just hired bya PD a few towns away. Hasn’t even been to the acadamy yet. But he’s already spouting the “whatever I have to do to come home” crap. He’s always seemed a decent enough kid. I believe he just turned 21..unfortunately he’s also dumber than a bag of hammers. He has that perfectly moldable play doh mind for the us against them mentality. That must be the thing they look for now I guess.

    • In fact, in some departments they turn down applicants with too high an IQ. It’s already been to the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals.

      The case you’re seeking is Robert Jordan vs. City of New London, from 1999 if memory serves. Jordan was an applicant to the New London police department and scored high on their standardized test. The police department turned him down. Jordan suspected age discrimination, and upon investigation, found out that he was turned down because his IQ was considered “too high” at about 125. The 2nd Circuit Court found that high IQ people aren’t a protected class and can be denied jobs on that basis.

      So there you go.

  31. Where is Rev. Sharpton?
    Serouisly, the cops seem at fault. This homeowner should never have been in a position to be shot. I personally would have stayed in my house and turned on every light I could and dialed 911. My wife and I would have then gone into survival mode lockdown. We have protocols after that. This was an avoidable and senseless tragedy.

  32. Alright several more people have resorted to name calling and insults instead of intellectual discourse! For some reason the site won’t let me reply to most of them so here I go:
    DJ: I am not a troll, I just disagree with you.
    Derrick :I am not a grabber. Quite the opposite. I definitely believe you should have the right to use deadly force if necessary to defend life or limb. I have never nor do I intend to watch Honey Boo Boo. Your reference to Big Brother speaks volumes about your mental state.
    Joke and Dagger: A pee pee joke? Really? There is a difference between scared and smart.
    And lastly Mike in FL: If your reading comprehension was on at least an eight grade level you would have understood that I meant sometimes people get addresses wrong. Your wish that something bad happens to me shows your true colors.

    • My name is Matt, not Mike (but that’s OK, I’m new here), and I fully realized that you meant “sometimes people get addresses” wrong. But in this case, and in others with astonishing frequency, it keeps happening and it costs people their lives. That is absolutely un-fvcking-acceptable. UPS and FedEx don’t get this many addresses wrong, and they have a lot more opportunity to do so, and a lot lower stakes. There is NO excuse for this. None. Zero. Zip. It is absolutely unacceptable, and in the majority of these cases, there is found to be no wrongdoing on the part of the officer(s). The shooting is bad, but the continuous lack of responsibility for it is worse.

      For future reference, the commenting system only lets comments nest four tiers deep. To reply to that thread, back up to the most recent tier three comment in that string that has a Reply link. Your comment will nest below the most recent tier four comment.

      • Matt. My mistake. The cops messed up, sure. They went to the wrong address. There isn’t a news story every time they get an address right. So you can’t say that Fed Ex and UPS have a better success rate. Yes the man had a right to go check on his yard. He had a right to do it armed. Just because he had the right doesn’t mean it was the best thing to do under those circumstances. I have the right to get drunk everyday but eventually that will kill me. He came out with a gun, surprised two cops looking for a burglary suspect and they mistakenly shot him. Tragic, no doubt. I feel bad for the man’s family and the cops too. All the comments about killing cops and other craziness only hurt our side.

    • Didn’t call you a grabber, said your argument was sounding like theirs. just because someone has a gun doesn’t mean they’re going to shoot everything in sight. Alot of DGUs involve the person never firing a shot simply, producing their gun. If this homeowner never fired a shot at the cops, short of charging them head on(I don’t know alot of 70 year olds that would or could do that) why the hell did they shoot him.. I never questioned your belief on use of deadly force. We both seem to agree that people have a right to defend themselves, but apparently where we draw the line is someone wanting to protect/preserve their property and their right or lack thereof to do so. If something makes a noise on my property/wandering around on my property i don’t immediately call the cops. I go outside and assess the situation. Thats what this homeowner did. he took a pistol to defend himself just in case. were supposed to crucify a guy because he wnated to protect his property. Apparently we’re just supposed to sit in our houses and not worry about the world around us. And my mental state. Nope I ain’t no Alex jones zombie. But I can see the forest for the trees. This stuff is happening more often. The more America’s police become militarized the less people will be safe and free. It’s a system that looks out for itself and has to far overreaching power. Google bisard in indianapolis. Cop kills a guy, and gets away with it. Hard for me to put cops on a pedestal when they do crap like this. Not that we should. I’m pretty sure you agree that the cops need better training from your previous long post about cops and military guys. (Since it seemed like you all of a sudden switched from blaming the homeowner to saying that cops need better training, like you almost agree these cops were at fault)So lets hold these guys to a higher standard, rather than blaming a seventy + year old man worried about his home and wife.

      • Apparently there is another Chris on here. I didn’t post the one about military and police. Don’t get me wrong I have seen a lot of cops and military that I wasn’t too sure about. Definitely not the cream of the crop, but I also know some damn fine soldiers and cops. No one should be put on a pedestal, ever, but I do believe the vast majority of them are in it for the right reasons. Maybe you and I differ on the matter of whether you should use deadly force to protect property. We agree on self defense. If someone is in your yard, you are not in immediate danger. Going outside changes that and puts you in danger. It’s just property, why risk your life for that? Somethings are worth dying for but not the the stuff in my storage building.

  33. The police officers made a deadly mistake and must be held accountable for it. No knock raids needs to cease without a preponderance of verifiable intelligence and exigent circumstances. I’m greatly disturbed by this story and the lack of consequences. The homeowner deserved better, and his family deserves justice.

  34. A common thread I see in these shootings is that you have more than one officer, and they are all shouting something, often times not the same thing. Like that guy who got shot in Vegas at the Costco, where one cop was telling him not to move, anther was telling him to get on the ground, and another was yelling for him to drop his gun. When more than one person is yelling, communication and understanding cease. And since the victim isn’t doing what at least one officer orders, he ends up shot.

    I read about another police shooting in the news today. Older black male I in the front seat of his mother’s car , in his own driveway, with a flashlight looking to see if he could find a cigarette A neighbor, seeing this, calls 911. The police roll up, order him out of the car. He backs out of the seat, stands and turns to face the cops. They open fire. [As an aside, the way I read the story, the cops fired 17 times and only hit him once, but that is a different issue.] And another citizen dies. And yes, he was not armed.

  35. I’m going to come at this from a slightly different angle. For a number of reasons I would not have gone outside to investigate a noise in my yard. The biggest being that although I’m not 72 as the victim was I am not a young man anymore. My night vision is not as good as it once was. Trying to search a dark outside environment by yourself is not a good way to operate. Look what happened to GZ.

    The homeowner had the right to search his property. But was it a wise tactic? I don’t claim to be HS/LD, but would an honest instructer teach his class to do this or chose another route?

    This situation was all the more tragic because the cops had the wrong address. What a foolish waste of life.

    I’m on record here as being against no knock warrents in the vast majority of cases. But this doesn’t appear to have been the case here. The cops were looking for a burglar. It appears to have been a mistaken address and bad judgement.

    Did both cops fire? Or was it just one? I’ve felt for years that there should be an independent citizens board to investigate police related shootings. The officers and those in their chain of command should face penalities if the shootings are bad. If an officer is poorly trained that’s the fault of his command structure and they should have to also suffer a penalty.

    Our cops should be there to help and protect us. It seems of late that this is often not the case. To Serve And Protect. How can we get back to that?

    • Right. No reason to go outside and put yourself at a distinct disadvantage. I’ve been attacked on here for saying stay inside and call 911. We pay the cops to handle stuff like that so let them.

      • Chris, you should turn in your guns then. Remember, we pay the cops to handle bad guys, so let them and leave the guns to the “professionals”.

        • Why would I do that? I said protect yourself from harm if necessary. Someone in your yard does not pose an immediate threat to you. I have firearms for self defense and should someone be stupid enough to enter my home or put me in fear of my life or my loved one’s lives I would use them. I believe in the adage that when seconds count the police are only minutes away, but someone in the yard is not a lethal force level threat.

        • Chris, you were the ones using the exact gun-grabber line of “We pay the cops to handle stuff like that so let them”. Seeing how you think like that, then using your own (lack of) logic, you should turn in your guns.

      • You know what we shouldn’t have “attacked” you. People’s emotions run high on certain issues. We should be able to keep calm and collected, or should probably keep our mouths shut. That’s fine if you want to call the police. Alot of people would, alot wouldn’t. What I’m having trouble with is short of dumping all six shots( 38. revolver per his wife in the article)at these cops, let alone even firing one round, is if this guy didnt charge the cops, attack them, or actually do anything to them other than point his pistol, why the hell did they fire. Was he screaming maniacally, firing rounds at the officers. Did he seem to be that big of a threat? Seems like pretty poor training and protocols as mentioned previously. Well never know his side of the story. Lets the facts play out.

        • I agree. More facts would stop a lot of the speculation on here. At least the anarchists and would-be cop killers finally quit posting. Those guys really hurt our image when we need to win the PR battle.

        • You would think in Texas, cops would know better than to be such dumb asses as to go pulling this kind of crap at night. Too bad the old man wasn’t shooting something like a .338 Win Mag or an old M1 Garrand.

        • Well that didn’t last long. Another would be cop killer. This only hurts our side and makes us look like the crazy gun nuts they want to make us out to be.

        • Yeah Chris, because cops are superior and to want to kill a murderous cop makes you the bad guy… /sarc

        • Murderous cop? These cops were no more murderous than George Zimmerman. I know you support him, right? They perceived a threat and shot. Were they wrong? Don’t know, but really that kind of rhetoric doesn’t help.

        • Bullshit, Chris. Zimmerman was attacked, pinned down, and was injured. These cops went onto another mans property and then shot the owner for no reason. It’s rather sickening that you worship the police so much that you’re trying to say the two events were similar.

        • Someone pointing a firearm at you can be just as much of a threat as beating your head in the ground. Just because you are mistakenly in someone’s yard doesn’t negate your right to self defense. I worship no man. I just feel they perceived a threat and reacted just like Zimmerman did. In that regard they are similar. You are hung up on the fact that it was his property. Just because it’s your property doesn’t give you the right to threaten anyone on it with a gun.

  36. Just curious, in my country (Canada), its illegal to point a firearm at someone unless you fear death or serious bodily harm. Someone (or persons) walking on your yard at night likely wouldn’t qualify as a threat of such harm, but entering your home probably would. Do any jurisdictions in the US view stepping into a yard as a threat of such harm?

    Sad case…

    • In parts of Texas (that I have read) you are legally permitted to use lethal force in protection of property, yours and others.

  37. My problem with these incidents is the benefit of the doubt is always given to the officer because of “officer safety.” The rule should be the opposite. A police officer volunteers to protect the rest of the community. They should be required to be MORE sure of their target than a regular person in the same circumstances. The “officer safety trumps everything else” mentality is really the root of these problems, in my opinion.

  38. I know it is a losing proposition but if I wake up to two men walking around my living room with flash lights, its on. I’m sure I will come out on the losing end especially at 72 but I’m taking some bastards with me.

  39. So these cops will get off…”oops” they’ll say… But what if the tables were turned. He sees two men armed on his property…assumes the worst and shoots one assuming it’s a threat to him and his family…an armed person on his PRIVATE property. This man would go to jail for murdering a cop…

    Shouldn’t it be equal and fair?

    • They’ll say they were wearing uniforms and that the homeowner should have known they were police. Losing proposition and jail time. Just be smart. Don’t go outside. Property theft isn’t worth all this.

      • So the cops claim darkness and “poor lighting” to excuse their recklessness, but claim the “homeowner should have known (seen?) we were cops”? I agree that gunfights with cops are losing propositions, ’cause they have unlimited resources. But what I cannot accept is placing the blame on an honest, law abiding citizen who has not left his own house (was shot & killed in his garage). This incident happened some months ago, and the “investigation is still ongoing”.
        If I open my garage door while holding a weapon and an officer is standing in the driveway, does he then have a right to shoot? I don’t give a good damn whether he feels “threatened” or not – no civilian would be measured by so lenient a standard. A citizen was killed by cops – on HIS property – in HIS house – with not even a suggestion that he committed any crime.
        I checked today with the FWPD, who tell me both officers are still on patrol duty. The ME report is now complete and is being reviewed by the department’s “chain of command”. Once they determine responsibility and course of action, their decision will be made public.
        Contrast this with what would have befallen Mr. Waller had he ‘felt threatened’, and defended himself from unknown, black-clad intruders running armed through his property! Citizens will continue to die needlessly until cops are held accountable for their actions. Blaming Mr. Waller for investigating unknown persons on his own property (instead of hiding and dialing 911) helps create the environment leading to even more murders accidents by the police.

        • Ok. Not gonna argue anymore. Do what you feel is right. Brandish weapons at cops, run headlong out into the dark night protecting your lawn mower,air compressor, and snap-on wrenches from the super villains lurking in the shadows. I sincerely hope you don’t get hurt or hurt another while performing your heroic feats.

        • Chris – You’re not “missing” the point. You’re willfully and intentionally avoiding the point. And your attitude will (guaranteed) allow these kind of deaths to continue.

        • What you’re missing is that whether Mr. Waller’s decision to investigate was smart, dumb, or anywhere in-between, he had done nothing illegal, immoral, or even fattening. He was 100% within his rights. But in all likelihood he will be judged as an “unfortunate, tragic accident”, and instead of criminal or civil legal responsibility falling upon the cops – his pointless death will be presented as yet another example of why civilians must never / ever take any responsibility for their own self protection.
          The failure to place the huge bulk of responsibility where it rightfully belongs (on the cops, if I’m not sufficiently clear) makes it easier for PDs everywhere to discount the value of civilian life.

        • Threatening people in your yard with a gun who do not pose a threat to you IS illegal and immoral. Just because someone is in your yard doesn’t mean you are under attack by the forces of darkness, The New World Order, or by the Taliban. It just means there is someone in your yard. Going out waving a gun around is a good way to get shot. I have the right to get drunk everyday but I know that it will kill me so I choose not to invoke that right. Just because something is a right doesn’t make it prudent.

        • Chris – I’m done with you. One post makes you sound almost reasonable… and in the next you’re making assumptions nowhere in evidence or (unless you have some “insider” info the rest of us don’t) even alleged!

          I take offense to the straw man argument you accuse me of making. Mr. Waller was not alleged to be “waving a gun around”, nor to be “threatening” anyone. Doubtless the cops will say they “felt threatened”, but many officers tattoo that phrase on their inner eyelids and mutter it after every weapons discharge, training or otherwise. (I enjoy a bit of hyperbole, too!)

          And it is doubtful that Mr. Waller felt “under attack by the forces of darkness, the NWO, or the Taliban”. While perhaps fun to write, those accusations of an honorable, dead family man don’t really strengthen your argument.

          I repeat (for the last time – because I no longer believe you’re really listening) nothing in Mr. Waller’s known actions was illegal, immoral, or even particularly imprudent. And finally – allowing cops to kill people (in his own garage, on his own property) with consequences limited to a week or a month of paid vacation will not reduce the deaths of law-abiding American citizens like Mr. Waller to “I’ll do whatever it takes to go home safely at the end of my shift” LEOs.

          Your determination to blame this victim and your insistent refusal to acknowledge the entitlement attitude of many current police departments is irresponsible, as is your tired defense of officers who behave in indefensible, possibly criminal fashion.

        • I understand what you are saying. I just think you’re wrong. If he didn’t brandish or point the gun, how did the cops see it? Obviously he had it out in order for it to be seen. I still believe if someone is in your yard you should not go outside with a gun to confront them. You will not change my mind and apparently I am right to feel this way because going outside like that can get you shot. What if it had been burglars? He put himself at a tactical disadvantage. So really no reason to go outside with a gun looking for confrontation. I am sorry the man died. I really am but both sides contributed to what was a tragic and avoidable incident.

  40. The point of the ever increasing LEO abuse is to get the population riled up against each other…against their local politicians…against local LEO’s….then to have retaliation strikes…happening to the LEO (which is already happening)…you will also see an ever increasing stream of “constructive tension events”…(i.e.-train wrecks, wildfires, houses exploding, oil-well-explosions, etc)…then the FED’s can claim the need to move in The National Guard…US Army…and as WW3 kicks off…the dollar collapse goes full swing..and the US loses it’s status as a 1st world country….Obama can declare Martial Law and enshrine himself as savior…or as UN Sec-Gen….depends on how WW3 goes? Either way… the LEO’s are pawns just like everyone else…and they had better personally get that idea soon…before the population begins to focus their anger somewhere…eh?


    RJ O’Guillory
    Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

      • Sorry son….I wouldn’t know how to find Alex Jones if you paid me…however…I did work for the US DoD as a “Federally Protected Whistle-Blower” who worked in Japan, Germany, Bosnia, Hungary..all across Europe and the US…and I sat in on meetings where illegal conduct was planned and expected to be executed by the people present…which I never would …so I’m sorry sonny…your little abusive Alex Jones joke just doesn’t cut any mustard with me….go out and experience how corrupt your governments are…local…state…federal…international….go experience that abuse on a personal level..for over two decades..and then come back and make fun of


        RJ O’Guillory
        Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • My gosh, boy…didn’t anyone ever teach you to not let your mouth overload your ass? My book is about growing up in the town that CBS selected in 1968..and identified it as “six-square-miles of the American Dream”…referring to it as the perfect American Suburb in an hour-long, nationally broadcast documentary called “16 in Webster Groves”…so I grew up in that town…with my Dad a 6-foot-9-inch, 350lb, corrupt, drunken, racist, St. Louis City Cop…my brother was a cop…until he was caught counterfeiting 100 dollar bills…and my Mom was the Court Clerk…until she got caught embezzling from the ticket fund….so my memoir has little to do with my adult activities…climbing Mt. Fuji…running a $20,000 a night bar in Hungary… …that was only opened 4 hours a night …getting a personal tour of Air Force One.. ….having a seizure and driving 7 miles in a “fugue-state” that I cannot recall…but driving off a two-hundred foot cliff at 70mph…being ejected from the back window, in spite of being buckled in..and getting tossed a few hundred feet down and across the mountain face..only to be plucked off the mountain by an EMT-helo…and walking out of the hospital five days later with a broken back, neck, ribs and a 19 staple gash in my brain… so my next book is going to be called “Confessions of a Federal Hamburger Flipper” and it will have some very interesting stories in it…so be on the look-out…!


          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • Why the hostility? It really does sound like a book that would appeal to Mr. Jones’ crowd. They like stuff about corrupt cops, embezzlement from government, and super James Bond 007 type exploits. I really think they would take to your book. Just trying to help you out, Boy.

          C.M. O’Whatever
          This Comment Right Here

        • Good point…I suppose that my hostility towards you…and people of your ilk…from what we can determine on this thread….is that you are either actively working for people who want to enslave me (even more than I am already)…or you don’t seem to know the difference…and yet you keep making silly, uninformed-statements that need to be addressed and countered so that people who don’t know the difference can make up their own mind….now…I’ve put my credentials on the table…nothing big…my role in the huge Federal Government was so small…I barely qualify…but don’t you see…that is the point…if my role in not selling tainted hamburgers was enough to put the kind of pressure on me that they did…what kind of other criminals acts do you think they are getting away with everyday? So please, tell us about your experiences in dealing with corruption and standing up against it? Otherwise, I suppose my answer would be that your density (and that of people like you) threatens my family and I…and the fact that you don’t know that…can’t see that in the behavior of your own government…yet you want to preach like you have a clue….I suppose that offends me….but I’ll tell you what…I could be wrong…and I’ll try to be more informative..and less insulting in the future….


          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane family

  41. The simple solution is for LEO to knock at the front door and tell the residence they are looking for something and apologize for the inconvenience.

    and you dont wander around outside non stealthily while serving a warrant btw. If they would have been the old guy wouldnt have been notified of a prowler.

  42. This will be my last comment on this matter. I started by saying he should have stayed inside and called 911 to report prowlers. Many of you say it was his property and he has the right to go out with his gun and see what is going on out there. In this case my approach would have been the better one because if we were in his shoes you guys would have gotten shot or ,based on your training and skill level, maybe shot a cop. Either way you’re in a world of hurt. I would have been inside, called 911, found out there were cops outside and went back to sleep. Problem solved, everybody wins. You may say that is cowardly. I say it’s just smart. Discretion is the better part of valor. If someone tries to enter your home, defend yourself but don’t go seeking confrontation just because you can. Once again I am sorry this man is dead but the “kill all the New World Order jack-booted thugs” rhetoric just makes us all look bad. Almost every time I tell someone that I enjoy shooting and collecting firearms they automatically assume I am one of these conspiracy theorists. You guys are just helping the civilian disarmament crowd. If a cop is wrong, push for prosecution or sue civilly. They work for us, hold them accountable but do it the right way, not ranting and raving like a lunatic. I read somewhere that you should not attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. When something bad like this happens many people assume that police and military are just out to murder innocent law-abiding citizens. I do not now nor will I ever believe that. To my detractors I sincerely hope you never are put in this situation and that you do think before you act. That being said, I will give you the last word.

    • Chris – Thank you for a moderately amicable disagreement. But please allow me one final observation/question. You state “If a cop is wrong, push for prosecution or sue civilly.”

      This comment somewhat perplexes me, as I have understood you to claim Mr.. Waller bears full responsibility for his own death, due to failure to “shelter in place” while calling 911. My position has been that, irrespective of any other issue, he was fully within his rights in investigating unknown persons traversing his property – therefore the cops should be subject to both criminal and civil prosecution (based on facts currently known).

      If you feel that these cops are potentially wrong, and therefore their actions potentially deserving of prosecution, it would seem we were closer in position than I had understood. If that’s true, why your prior stubborn refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of prosecuting criminal police activity?

      • Since you asked I will respond. I was saying to the “Kill the Cops” crowd if you think a cop is wrong, sue or prosecute. Don’t immediately call for cop killing. That is detrimental to gun owners everywhere. Mr. Waller at some point showed the gun apparently. Whether it was brandished or pointed I do not know. He had the right to investigate goings-on in his yard no doubt. Unfortunately this investigation led to the perception of a threat by two police officers. Once again I do not know if he pointed the gun, brandished it, or threatened to shoot them while holding it. Any one of those could have put a police officer in fear of their life. The cops were wrong for being in his yard, but not so wrong that they should have been threatened with a gun. Someone in your yard is not an immediate threat to you. Someone in your home or trying to get in is. The right to take another’s life in self defense is the most serious right we have. We should not take it lightly. Don’t shoot or threaten someone for being in your yard. It will only make you look insane and possibly get you killed. I truly believe that nothing in my yard is worth going outside, losing my tactical advantage, and getting myself or my family killed for.

        • Sadly sueing or prosecuting a cop is easier said than done. The courts are set up to almost always side with the police even if they are in the wrong. DA’s almost always refuse to prosecute cops, since they don’t want to piss off their coworkers. Judges also have to accept that cops never lie, they that the cop’s word is greater and truer than yours unless you have some sort of ironclad proof the judge doesn’t throw out or ignore. Lasty the cop’s friends will harass you or your surviors until charges are dropped. Either way the system is stacked against you, it’s all lose/lose. Cops will almost always get off for their mis-deeds or mistakes while non-LEOs would be nailed to the wall.

        • I think the most significant action to prevent cries of “kill the cops!” is to allow prosecution of cops who questionably kill citizens in the performance of their duties. In today’s political and LEO environment, it’s extraordinarily difficult to bring such charges.

  43. I am amazed at how far this thread has gone. I have no desire to make this continue but I have to say that no matter how liable the cops are for this, and no matter how much Mr Waller was within his rights, going outside searching or searching inside your house, especially alone, when you don’t NEED to is tactically stupid.

  44. Enter the victims street address in Google Earth and do a street view of all the addresses in plain sight.- 404 N Havenwood Ln, 76112
    Some houses on that street have the address posted as much as four times on the curbs and mailboxes.

    At 01:15:20 CDT* on Tuesday, 28 May 2013
    the waning moon’s phase was 86.25% full. <– 86.25% full!

    Their claim of poor lighting falls apart.
    Any attorney worth his salt could rip these two rookies to shreds.

  45. I applaud your research, and may even agree with your conclusion – BUT – before an attorney can argue the points you bring up, you gotta get this to court. The FWPD will move heaven & earth to prevent that happening.


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