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Jerry Waller (right) (courtesy

TTAG reader Gary is up in arms (though not literally) about a story coming out of Fort Worth Texas: Police shoot dead grandfather. 72, while searching the wrong home for burglar, blame ‘lighting’. “The two officers, B.B Hanlon and Arpie Hoeppner, were searching around the home with their flashlights when Waller emerged from his home armed with a handgun, investigating who was walking around his property with flashlights,” reports. Boom. Dead. More than a few members of our Armed Intelligentsia have emailed to point out that cops need a standard protocol for identifying themselves to fellow civilians. Of course, that would take all the fun out of no-knock raids. Anyway, Gary opines . . .

Maybe a factor in LEO behavior should be related to entrance onto PRIVATE PROPERTY. In spite of performing the duties (incorrectly), I’ve see enough of the LEO training to know that they aren’t the Mormon Tabernacle Choir when it comes to “announcing” their presence and LE status. (ONE soloist shouting POLICE, would be better.)

In addition, all the POLICE emblems are on the backs of many uniforms, with ‘badges’ embroidered on the front, etc., in many cases. They approach with multiple flashlights SUREFIRE high-intensity or equivalent, and the home owner is intended to be blinded and confused by the overwhelming police actions. Making visual identification impossible, and with all the shouting!! While the LEO’s may have practiced this maneuver dozens of times, the victim is on the receiving end for the 1st time, and has a natural reaction to the aggressive behavior.

While the LEO’s are approaching, they COULD use both concealment and cover to minimize their exposure to danger, and the victim is standing in the open, with the house lights behind them, facing the unknown threat. While the LEO’s are supplied with training, ammo, and practice on the range, and operate with backup, the victim is a lone man with a cheap flashlight, a single sidearm, no backup, no spare magazine, and has a SENSE of OWNERSHIP and RIGHT on his side. IT’S HIS PROPERTY.!! That ought to count for something in the deliberation.

If I were a betting man, there is a high probability that 1 in 100 LEOs would react the same as the victim, and all would object to THAT outcome.

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  1. After a lengthy investigation (to allow the heat to die down, during which the shooter is on a paid vacation), the police will determine that proper procedures were followed. Because that’s all that ever happens.

  2. He should have had a dog. When the cops shot the dog he would have known they were cops. Anybody have an article anywhere, where a badguy shoots a dog? Nope. Just cops. (End Sarcasm) I love my animals, and do not advocate using them as bait for the police.

    • J.G.

      I don’t advocate using pets as bait for the police either. However, I would much rather see a pet die than a human family member. Sadly, I think there is a lot of wisdom in your statement in spite of the intended sarcasm.

    • I don’t want a cop or a bad guy to shoot my dog either but….

      Two of the reasons I have dogs are as an alarm and to go find an intruder. Searching your house for an intruder is dangerous and the dogs will find them much faster than I ever could.

  3. Whatever happened to driving up with sirens and flashing lights on … and then announcing on their squad car’s loudspeaker, “This is the police.” ?!?!?!?

    Our court system lives by the doctrine, “Better to let 100 criminals go free than to falsely imprison just one innocent person.” How does the same principle not apply to the police? Better for 100 burglars to hear the police coming and scamper away than to kill one innocent homeowner who was responding to intruders in the homeowner’s back yard.

    This sh!t has to stop.

    • How about a CIVIL wrongful death suit against Andy and Barney PERSONALLY. I don’t think they could hide behind the city from that suit.

      • qualified immunity. the legal system protects its own. prosecutors have absolute immunity: they can lie, cheat, suborn perjury, withhold evidence, and cannot be sued.

  4. The fact that this is almost a daily occurrence and that this will be swept under the rug and the victim will be blamed for the actions of the officers, is why I fully support executing all LEO’s. They’re proven time and time again that they are nothing but a terrorist group intent on harming as many innocent people as possible and forcing their victims to pay their salaries while they’re at it.

      • Totenglocke is absolutely right. There is no fixing the system; law enforcement in the United States is throughly corrupt and evil. We need to take out the trash and start from scratch. I know it won’t happen, but it’s sure a nice thought.

      • Don’t worry, I’m well aware of the well developed program for brainwashing people into supporting the police & military, regardless of how many crimes they commit. It’s why kids are repeatedly trained to worship the police & military almost every day in the US – so that when they are adults and actually see what the police are doing, they won’t stand up against them because “the police are the good guys”.

      • Having known many LEOs, both family members and church members, this broad-brush “they are nothing but a terrorist groups intent on harming as many innocent people as possible” is false. And dangerous.
        Are there bad cops? Sure.
        Do cops make mistakes? Absolutely.
        However, most of them are trying to do their job to the best of their ability and training.
        This “us vs. them” rhetoric is dangerous – whether it is Sharpton talking about race or gunowners talking about the police.
        Instead we need to be vocal supportive advocates for better training for our LEOs to prevent incidents like this. I strongly suspect the LEO who shot the homeowner has been conditioned by the folks he’s had to deal with to be scared of any non-LEO around. A common, and dangerous, thing in large-city LEO communities.

        • When they screw up and kill someone who was at home minding their own business, there should be manslaughter charges etc.

        • Having known many LEO’s, both family members, acquaintances, and co-workers, I stand by what I said 100%. They exist to terrorize the American people and teach them to fear the government with the intention of causing Americans to be too afraid of exercising their rights.

          You are letting your feelings for the LEO’s you know cloud your judgement and cause you to make excuses for their never ending stream of attacks in decent Americans.

        • He should have shot the cops. He was perfectly within his right by Texas law. Unidentified armed intruders on his property at night. Would have been a terrible tragedy, sure, but at least he would be able to go home that night.

        • The problem is not them trying to do their job, it is what their job has become. To bust down doors and in so doing, “just following orders, just doing my job”.
          Change the job!

        • Police usually reflect the values of those who hire them, set policy, and give orders. The behavior of an officer from one police department will differ greatly to those in another. I have seen disputes between police departments regarding everything from enforcement policy to turf that had gotten rather intense. One of the features of living in the US is that we do not have a national police force. The point is that only true criminals can paint a broad paint stroke and declare all police as bad, for common crime (murder, rape, burglary, theft, etc.) is the only thing police tend to all agree upon. I have been in a number of conversations with LEOs discussing tactics and behaviors of other police departments and officers, and trust me, they are just as disturbed by these kinds of scenarios as anyone else.

    • “… they are nothing but a terrorist group intent on harming as many innocent people as possible and forcing their victims to pay their salaries while they’re at it.”

      Actually, I think it is much closer to a criminal “protection” racket. The “rules” are strikingly similar:
      (1) Always pay your protection money (taxes).
      (2) Always comply with the muscle (police).
      (3) Never speak critically about their organization (government).
      (4) Don’t harm or steal from anyone under their “protection”.
      (5) The rules don’t apply to the muscle or their organization.
      Break any of the rules and you will have a very bad day.

      Now to be fair, government is nothing more than a protection racket. The primary difference between a government protection racket and a criminal protection racket, however, is that rule number (5) is not suppose to exist under government protection rackets.

  5. This $#!+ has got to stop! The Police are the ones creating the environments where someone is going to die. Near me, the family of a man call the cops because they were concerned about him. They send the $%^$ SWAT team! So his reaction is to barricade himself in his home and eventually commits suicide when he realizes his life is over no matter what he does. And yes, sometimes a cop gets shot too because of these false tactical situations they create. This is insane!

    • Screw it, if I was in that guy’s situation, instead of killing myself I’d take out as many cops as I could before they killed me.

  6. The repercussions for this bullshit has got to increase, or it’s never going to go away. Not ever.

    They like to “make examples out of criminals” who do bad things, pour encourager les autres, so that’s what needs to start happening. I don’t care if it was overzealous enforcement, or just an honest mistake. Make an example of the next dumb shit who kills somebody like this, and then the next, and then the next, until people stop dying like this. Because there’s just no goddamn excuse for it. None.

    Pisses me right the hell off.

    • So what happens when a cop breaks into the wrong house with a no knock and gets killed? For the homeowner, what then?

      • The homeowner gets killed by that cop’s half-dozen friends who followed him through the door. And six months later, it’s determined (by the police, natch) that the police followed proper procedures, and it all goes away, and there’s still two guys needlessly dead.

        • Of course you do. You’ll notice a dramatic difference in tone between your comments and mine. This pisses me off, but I’m not advocating executing all cops, like you have.

        • Because you willingly submit to them. You think that they still have a “divine” right to do whatever they please with no consequences and look at this as a “unfortunate misunderstanding” instead of the downright criminal behavior that it was.

      • You sue his azz into oblivion in a CIVIL trial. Whole different set of rules and the po-po is just another citizen defendant.

        • Because a cop paying you lots of money from his union tort insurance is going to bring your loved one back. If you’re a cop and you kill a human being who is not an active threat, you should get to dance on the end of a rope.

  7. Combine two rookie one year wonders amped-up and looking for a
    burglar, an armed homeowner at night in the dark, and bad things
    will almost certainly be the unfortunate outcome. I don’t understand
    why this guy didn’t stay in his superior place of cover,…his house.
    I’m not going outside to confront flashlights. I’m turning on all of my
    exterior flood lights where I can see them, but they can’t see me.
    Advantage: homeowner. If they’re not the police, they’ll probably run
    for the darkness like roaches. If they are the police, they’ll probably
    realize it’s the homeowner who turned on the lights. Nobody dies.

    • I know you didn’t expressly say it did, but I’m going to reiterate: That doesn’t make it his damn fault.

      • That’s right, I didn’t expressly say it. And for good reason.
        I wasn’t trying to imply he was at fault. He made a choice,
        and so did the prowling police. The outcome usually ends
        up badly for the homeowner, not the police, regardless of
        who is, or is not at fault. What bothers me is, why were
        these two rookies out prowling around by themselves?

      • Everyone in this chain is onto something, use your tactical superiority (but remember if YOU flashbang THEM mistakenly you’re in for a world of hurt). As for multiple flashlights searching my back yard I’d assume it was cops, then I’d try to confirm it from cover. Wondering into a tactical situation you don’t understand will get you killed (still, again). However I agree that the police ought to have policy and training to prevent this sort of thing from happening. If you’re going to skulk around in the night trespassing this sort of thing is going to happen frequently and you should be prepared for it. The flip side of this is that lacking the right approach this will also get officers killed. Whether it’s by someone who shoots first and asks questions later or someone the police fire on and miss (yeah, I know, that never happens) who then returns fire and doesn’t miss, or even someone who is hit but still in the fight. In some of the houses I know the sound of a firefight erupting between the primary defender of the house and unknowns in the back yard is apt to draw fire from others inside the house. Once everyone is shooting it’s very hard to hear someone yelling ‘Police’ assuming they actually remember to do so.
        Anecdotal but I live in a very small town (population less than 3000) with a violent crime rate of zero, yet still the last time there was a commotion in the yard I share with my neighbor we both came out armed (and didn’t even come near to shooting each other). I guess I should thank god my neighbor isn’t a cop (sorry, couldn’t resist). The point is that encountering armed people happens, you can’t just shoot everyone you see with a gun in their hand.

        • ” The point is that encountering armed people happens, you can’t just shoot everyone you see with a gun in their hand.”
          This is the point everyone should be making. Too many times, Cops do something stupid and an innocent dies, and there are NO repercussions.

    • Finally someone gets it. If you truly believe the people in your yard are crooks why would you go outside and put your whole family in danger by opening the door?

        • How’d that work out for him? Just because you have a gun doesn’t mean you should go looking for confrontation. Stay inside, call 911. Don’t go running out in the middle of something you don’t understand.

        • How about LEO learning how to properly find the correct address AFTER obtaining the correct warrant or adhering to probable cause.

        • Chris, I can’t decide if you are a troll or just delusional.

          Nothing this guy did was illegal. And the police shot him. End of story.

          I have a CCW permit, and I carry.

          By your reasoning, I should never leave my house, because the simple act of walking out my front door exposes me to whatever treatment law enforcement thinks I deserve.

          Everything except – “he was on his property and not engaged in any unlawful act” is irrelevant. Deployed soldiers would go to jail if they had shot this guy and he was a local national. No ifs, ands or buts. Court martial – Jail.

          In a just society, these guys would be headed to jail. Want to place bets on whether that happens.

      • Dude was 72, not some tactical TTAG reader. He did nothing wrong. Stay the fvck off his property. A simple concept, really.

        • “not some tactical TTAG reader”

          So, you are implying if he was a “tactical TTAG reader” then he should have been shot?

          BTW, I’m not sure what a “tactical TTAG reader” is. I only have two deployments under my belt. Maybe you can educate me, from your vast store of knowledge?

        • I believe he was making the point that he isn’t privy to all of the “Stay in your damn house”, Turn on the damn floodlights” and “Spy on the intruder from your windows” rhetoric from the armchair quarterbacks here.

          His term “Tactical TTAG Reader” was more sarcasm to make fun of those that were criticizing his judgement after the fact. His implication then would be that the man did nothing wrong and should not have lost his life because a police officer made a mistake and shot him while he was within every right to defend his property.

          If I am wrong Joke, please correct me.

    • I wouldn’t count on a 72YO person to necessarily make the best decision at waking up in middle of night seeing flashlights in his backyard.

  8. If I was a betting man, I’D bet there’s a high probability that more than 1 in 100 LEOs would react the same as this victim!

      • TOUCHDOWN comment.

        A badge and a bus drivers hat doesn’t make you a sharpshooter.

        Just ask all the bystanders that were shot in NYC a while back.

        this is just a smart A$$ comment from me.

        If this kind of behavior by LEOs were punishable with severe consequences (ie major jail time) felony conviction and loss of income among other issues that follow felons then and only then procedures may change.

        Just my $.02

  9. there is got to be something that people can do, and I mean short of kill them. It just feels like thats going to be the only solution left sadly, if cops keep pulling stunt like these.

  10. If someone is in your yard, it is not a good idea to go running outside with a gun. A quick call to 911 to report the prowlers would have saved this man’s life.

        • Even though it’s your yard you still have no reason to go running out confronting people with a gun. Just because someone is in your yard is not justification for lethal force. Inside your house is a different matter, but not the yard.

        • House vs. yard depends on where you live. Some places they are effectively the same thing. You’re still making it sound like it’s his fault that he got shot. And again I say the hell with that. It’s his yard. He’s got more than enough right and reason to go out there if he chooses, based on that fact alone. Too many goddamn times this is happening, and over and over it’s ruled a “good shoot.”

          Two days ago, this guy’s neighbor called the cops after seeing him reach INTO HIS OWN CAR. Cops showed up and ordered him, at gunpoint, to turn around, and when he didn’t do it fast enough, they got nervous and shot him IN HIS OWN GODDAMN DRIVEWAY.

          This shit has got to stop!

        • I am irritated that I have to stop using “Chris” as my name here just to make sure people don’t confuse me with someone who thinks it is OK for police to shoot 72 year old men in their garage…

      • I don’t give two hoots about my yard; I don’t grow prize-winning dandelions or crabgrass. If they break in however, I’ll let the responding officers pick up the body.

    • Too bad he didn’t get to call them to come and get their crooked cops off the floor. When someone is in my yard and house shining lights and running around with guns in the middle of the night, no proper ID, no warrants, they can go to hell.

    • Chris,

      The shooting happened in Forth Worth. Forth Worth is a city in the state of Texas. Texas is a state in the United States of America.

      I state that because you appear to not grasp that fact in your comment. My yard. My right to check out anything in any manner I damn well please. I could walk out in my backyard buck naked if I so choose. My yard. The police have to behave differently. They have to identify themselves. It is not hard. I have a doorbell. If they want to search my backyard in the middle of the night, they have to let me know. It is my yard. They are municipal employees. I am not.

      • If the police believe a burglary suspect ran into your backyard they DO NOT have to let your know. If you see someone in your backyard, running out with a gun is the worst thing you could do as evidenced by this scenario.

        • If cops enter my property, especially my curtilage, without notifying me that they are in fact LEO’s, then when I haul out my weapon(s) and start shooting… I’m perfectly within my rights to say “There was an intruder, I had a reasonable fear of death or GBI, and well, that was that.”

          See how that sword cuts both ways?

      • I think Chris isn’t questioning the legality of the man’s actions, just his tactics. He had every right to go outside and investigate. However, that puts him at a disadvantage. Especially in the dark. When things go bump in the night; arm yourself, call the cops, and take a defensible position. If it becomes life or death situation, you want it to be at a location of your choosing, not theirs. Inside, you have concealment/cover, plus free-fires zones to help with your defense. Outside, you have less control of the situation.

    • Worse yet. He was in his garage that was attached to his home. He was still in his home when he was killed. How the hell do you see him being at fault?

      Follow the link and watch the report. The man’s home has an attached garage. He was still under his roof when he was killed.

      • Ok, but if the police were in the yard and he backlit himself and pointed or brandished the gun? The cops can make a case that they felt threatened. I still say he should have stayed inside, called 911 to report “prowlers”.

        • They were prowlers, and were likely their under armed trespass because the did not have a warrant and probable cause was very very thin. On top of that, they were stalking around in the dark in blacked out tacti-cool clothing.

          What makes you think the bastards wouldn’t have battering rammed the door withing seconds anyway?

      • Even if he was outside his garage, he was within the legal definition of “curtilage.” Do a search to learn about the legal cases concerning the area immediately outside your home.

        • I am familiar with the concept of the curtilage. The curtilage has nothing to do with this case. Being in your curtilage does not give you immunity from the consequences of putting others in fear for their life. If he had just stayed inside and called 911 he would still be alive and the cops might have been able to move on and catch the burglary suspect.

        • Well, I suppose every bunch of tyrants needs a bunch of fawning sycophants, and it appears you’ve found your place of comfort in this situation.

        • Chris your arguments are very reminiscent of gun banners/grabbers. Just because this guy had a gun doesn’t mean he was gonna come out shooting like some sort of bloodbath/wild west shoot out that the antis always claim will happen when people own and use guns. It seems like the gentleman wanted to make sure his property was alright, which is his damn right, and wanted something for protection since he’s in his seventies, and swinging a bat probably isn’t his best line of defense. Your cowardly dependence on government institutions by suggesting that he just call the police and hide inside his home is the best policy when something happens to your home and property to me is pathetic. Stay inside and watch honey boo, and let big brother take care of it.

        • Many of the libs tolerate this police activity since they think the DNC controls everything along with Barry. The hard core Gun Banners are o.k. with this kind of police shooting because they think anyone with a gun should have it taken or be shot.

  11. I thought the story where the Call of Duty statue got shot up was hilarious. But I am begining to rethink that feeling.

  12. I’ve had ENOUGH; people here have had ENOUGH. All God’s chilluns had ENOUGH! It’s PAST TIME these SWAT turds paid for their evil and their negligence.
    Sometimes I believe they go OUT looking to kill a “civilian”. PRISON TERMS are PAST OVERDUE! Cops paying victim settlements OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET is PAST OVERDUE!!

    Take 45% of their salaries, their pensions, their Social Security! No taxpayer fundings!

    • I agree and they shouldn’t be allowed to hide behind their union like it is a personnel issue when it is an malpractice in LEO and criminal activity. They should be charged with manslaughter. Period.

    • Forget settlements – sue them. And win. Then set up a payment plan: 75% of their income for life. Civil juries love this stuff, especially those who have ever gotten a summons or ticket. A second year law student could win a case like that if it hit the media.

      • All that suing them would accomplish is to transfer money out of the pockets of the whole of the taxpayers (of which the deceased was one, having been a homeowner) into the widow’s pocket.

        There will be no judgements levied against the heroic cops, because after all, they were “just doing their jobs.” They have sovereign immunity, and therefore no culpability attaches to them in the performance of their job.

        • They have some immunities, but they are qualified. The real issue is that the individual police officer, if only negligent, is entitled to indemnification from the public entity, so he suffers no out-of-pocket loss. On the other hand, if it is intentionally wrongful conduct, damages may attach–but since such conduct will get the guy fired, there probably won’t be a pot to pay the damages.

  13. Seems to beg putting a notice on the entry locations that ” Unannounced entry will result in armed resistance.” That would be interesting.

  14. I’m so glad I am not one of those cops. I would not be able to live with myself after killing a man in this situation.

  15. Here we go with more of those Warrior Cops. I think every state should adopt an Indiana style law so that when people have to drop these punks, they are paid for like any other misguided thug.

  16. I think it is time to put an end to these SWAT teams. In the words of Obama and Biden, “if it only saves one life, then it is worth getting rid of them.”

  17. This is the second shooting to happen in Ft Worth that involved officers shooting a homeowner on their own property this year.

  18. Not to mention the police are always armored. They should be required to ‘take a punch’ before swinging back.

    Our military has their hands tied with ROE requiring they not respond with force, often until multiple rounds have been fired at them. (not sure the exact details, but they are certainly more restricted than any LEO) And that is to deal with people outside the protection of our Bill of Rights. Something seems out of balance here. In America it is open season on civilians, criminal and law abiding citizen a like, but our military has to sit on their hands while being shot at by combatants in a war zone.

    • That’s what I find infuriating about these bad shoots. I would have gone to jail if I had shot an Iraqi in that scenario. Hell, we let the Iraqis be better armed than this guy was allowed to be. Every household was allowed an AK (full auto) for defense.

      Is there an organization that will try to stop this cr@p legally? The NRA does nothing.

  19. I think we need to pass a new amendment to the constitution that requires officers to PROVE they clearly identified themselves as PO’s before using lethal force on private property and to verify the address of said property before approaching. Sort of like SD laws in Ohio but for cops on private property. I mean its to that point that we need an amendment to the freaking constitution to tell these meat heads that killing people on their own property, for doing nothing illegal, all because you can read get a FREAKING NUMBER RIGHT is unconstitutional…I mean this is life or death, your job is simple GO TO THIS ADDRESS. Read the mailbox, the garage door, the numbers on the street or door, something. If there had been bad guys across the street they could have gunned down these two officers from behind without much trouble….

    • According to the parent story, the home that the LEOs were supposed to investigate was across the street. I’ve also seen a story recently where a home was “foreclosed” upon by a bank, and its contents were removed. Homeowner came home after being away to find a basically empty home. That story reports that the homeowner was told that GPS led the bank personnel to the homeowner’s house. The house they were supposed to go to was across the street.

      These incidents should have never happened.

      While addressing varies depending upon where you are, there is at least one thing that been the same everywhere I’ve been: odd addresses are on one side of the street, and even addresses are on the other. While one town may differ from another as to which side odd addresses are located, I’ve never seen it vary within the same town.

      Wrong side of the street? Never should happen.

      • The odd versus even addresses being on different sides of the street is not universal, even if exceptions are rare. My house for example is the only odd numbered address on my side of the street. For quite a while, everytime I got a new FedEx driver I had trouble with the first delivery.

        • Anyone who has been to (lost on) a military post is intimately familiar with random sequences of building numbers.

    • Chris:

      This happened a few miles from my house. Your comments above reflect a lack of information.

      #1. Waller was investigating someone in his yard. Few, if any of us, would expect to find police officers who shoot first. Even most “bad guys” do not do that.

      #2. Two rookie cops. Bad decision by FWPD to put them out there together.

      #3. Here’s the kicker. The call for suspected burglars was across the street. These two officers did not even go the right house. Lightening was not mentioned in the first statements from police. That is a new wrinkle.

      #4. They will be exonerated. They are still on the street per the article in the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

      #5. This behavior is not unusual. Take the time to research the shooting record of police in the last 5 years to any other 5 year period in the last 50. Easy to do, google it. If that does not open your eyes to the changes in LE, nothing will.

      • Ok, so the cops made a mistake about the address. That happens. He still should have stayed inside and reported what he thought were prowlers by calling 911.

        • For God’s sake, Chris… are American citizens automatically to be considered police targets if we take any action other than “sheltering in place” while calling 911? You seem to have no other suggestion besides hiding and awaiting our blue clad saviors!

        • “That happens.”

          THAT HAPPENS?!

          I don’t usually wish ill on people, but I seriously hope something bad happens to you out of the blue, so I can shrug and say “That happens.”

        • In the mean time, 8 to 20 home invaders have the opportunity to bust through the door. Leo Storm Troopers do that you know while often yelling eff this, eff that, we gonna effing shoot you.

        • ..I’d like to say that I am shocked at the thoughts and ideas expressed on this thread..but sadly..I am not….the issue here is not “safety”…or being “smart tactically”….but of maintaining our LIBERTY… all do recall that those Police are supposed to work for US..and follow the rules as laid down by US… therefore …in spite of the old man’s death…the Police are responsible for the death and they should be paying the price…I think sentencing them to life in prison…with parole possible after a ten year stretch at hard labor…maybe then…cops would understand the idea of LIBERTY..and who they work for…and who’s rules they have to follow?

          And please..dear Chris….please go out into the world and get some experience…you sound so naive?


          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • RJ, what’s wrong with considering safety and tactics? I get from your comment that this is only about LIBERTY for you. Being able to consider multipe sides of an issue is important. Only considering one issue tends to result in poor choices and in this case poor choices on both sides that resulted in a man’s death.

        • SAS2008……I agree with you…nothing wrong with considering tactics and the intelligence of choosing to go outside….however…the key issue is the man’s Right to choose to go outside…and especially to be free of harm delivered by Agents of the State…who were behaving illegally…for making that choice? Everything after that is just dressing for the Window of Liberty…

          …and the old “we have to go home at night too”…bit from the cops is just pure BS…they use that for every infraction that they make…and just expect us to accept it? Well…boys and girls…you were the folks…whom…when you signed up for the job…and took the oath to do that job properly…it was you who accepted the responsibility for adherence to the rules. The Old Man ended up paying a price that he should not…because the Cops did not recognize the Right to Liberty?

          Oh, and if you think about it…they claim to be bigger idiots than just shooting a wrong man…they couldn’t even find the right address…in an area they are paid to patrol?



          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • Forgive me for butting into your conversation, but I can’t seem to stop myself!!
          Suggesting this death was an unfortunate accident, caused by “poor choices on both sides”, MIGHT fly if we were discussing an encounter between two homeowners shooting across the street at each other without first identifying their targets.
          But this encounter was between a 72 year old man standing in his own garage and two “highly trained” sworn law enforcement officers. Did Mr. Waller choose “poor tactics”? Okay – I’ll concede that point. Does it matter? No. Not one damn bit.
          Let the officers be held to and judged by the same standard as are the rest of us. Without a higher standard being upheld, citizen deaths will continue to elicit little more than “Oops, Sorry!” from law enforcement.

        • Swobard, I never suggested this was an accident. I am not sure how you are getting that from my words.

          “Did Mr. Waller choose “poor tactics”? Okay – I’ll concede that point. Does it matter? No. Not one damn bit.”

          It matters to Mr. Waller, or a least to his widow. He is dead and would likely be alive if he had not made that choice. But does in matter in a criminal or civil case against the cops? My guess is probably not. What should matter is the same reasonable man standard that we should all be held to when justifying our use of deadly force. Would a reasonable and prudent person in the exact same situation, knowing what the defendant did at that time, do the same thing? I don’t have enough facts to make the decision here. That is a question for a jury.

          All parties made mistakes or poor choices, however you want to word it. That does not consitute an accident. The combinations of those poor choices resulted in Mr. Waller’s death. He has already paid the price for his choice. The police should be held accountable for their choices and actions. The cops should be subject to any criminal and civil review and suits that could apply. This is not an either/or situation. Both sides were either stupid or irresponsible or maybe both.

      • Hey, when the LAST guy in Fort Worth got shot in his OWN GODDAMN DRIVEWAY (pretty sad that I can say ‘last guy,’ isn’t it?), weren’t the cops in that case also rookies, and wasn’t the address they were supposed to be responding to also across the street? Or was just next door, as if that’s any better?

  20. With this becoming SOOOO common one must ask oneself if it is just poor police skills or Intentional Murder by Cops. Under the Patriot Act this would be plausible.
    PS I detest AJ and all he spews

  21. This type of thing is actually one of the reasons that I keep my home defense gun, an AR-15, loaded with FMJ rounds (I live in the country, overpenetration into a neighbor’s house isn’t an issue). If I unwittingly confront some mistaken police officers in my house in the middle of the night, I want something that will penetrate handgun-rated ballistic vests, and kill the officer(s). I don’t want my rounds to bounce off, only to have him return fire and kill (unarmored) me.

    I don’t want to be the fatal mistake of a stupid officer. If some sh*t-for-brains makes that massive of a mistake, he should be the one to die, not me. I’d rather defend myself in court than be laying in the morgue.

    • My home def long gun of choice is a 12 gauge with buckshot, but I really haven’t thought about having to defend myself against home invaders in body armor. My guess is even lighter armor would stop a load of 00. At close range it would probably feel like getting kicked in the chest by a mule, though.

      • I have seen in person a demonstration of a ballistic panel stopping a 12 gauge slug. It would bruise the crap out of the person being shot, but it did not penetrate. I have been kicked in the chest by a steer, luckly with no broken bones, and I think the 12 gauge looked worse.

      • AR500 plates (which are what you put in a plate carrier if you are using steel plates) can stop as many as 6 rounds of .308. Buckshot is doing nothing to that. It might be more effective versus ceramics, tho.

        • The vast, vast majority of cops wear type IIIA soft armor though. Even with trauma plate inserts, a 5.56 FMJ is going to zip right through. Steel core ammo would have even less trouble.

          A SWAT team would definitely be wearing hard rifle plates though, which would laugh at my AR.

  22. Hey now, all you little people getting worked up, you’re getting way out of line. You’re missing the “big picture” here.

    The most important thing was that the two rookie cops got to go home at the end of their shift and they’ll live to collect their underfunded taxpayer-backed pensions. That’s what is most important and paramount for all you petty little taxpayers to remember in this situation. So what if a law abiding and upstanding citizen got ventilated and was hauled out of his own residence in a body bag? To quote a hyper-smart Ivy-League public policy genius, “At this point, what difference does it make?

    This death was such a small price for the public to pay for an important training opportunity for our valiant heroes in law enforcement! We all know a priori with a likelihood asymptotically approaching 1.0 that the investigation will find absolutely nothing wrong with the officers’ conduct here. High-fives will be traded in the squad room upon the conclusion of the dog-n-pony-show hearings, and there will be many doughnuts with premium coffee enjoyed by all. Your valiant heroes in law enforcement will do their level best during the hearings to bite their lips and look terribly serious and somber. Admire their restraint, because what they really want to do is laugh in your faces. Their leadership will nod their heads with serious gravitas and intone in meaningfully somber tones what a “tragedy” this was, but will remind the public in a stern tone with a wagging finger that nothing was done in conflict with policy. A “civilian” displayed a gun! Heroic officers were possibly in danger of losing continence, and we can’t possibly have that, can we?

    So you taxpayers (excuse me: “civilians”) should just stifle yourselves and cough up your tax revenues on time, with a smile and boot-licking gratitude for your public service heroes.

    For those of you who are so dense as to not recognize sarcasm, the above paragraphs were indeed sarcasm.

    Now that I’ve got that bit of snark out of my system, allow me to make a serious comment:

    I’ve been warning LEO’s for years that one day, you’re going to turn around and realize that the majority of the public hates your guts with a flaming passion. On that day, it will be too late, and there will be no recourse, no retreat and nowhere to hide. There will be nothing that you LEO’s can do to retrieve your reputations, regardless of whether you’re one of the “good guys” or one of the thugs. If you wear or wore the uniform, you will be an object of the wrath of a seething and seriously pissed off public.

    As you have sown the wind, you shall reap the whirlwind.

    • Your logic above is why I think that if it comes down from high up that local cop are supposed to go around and gather up the arms of average law abiding citizens the cops will revolt and say Hell No! It would not take the deaths of too many cops just trying to earn a decent living before they stop collecting up guns.

        • You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension, probably because you’re a public sector employee.

          The salient point is this:

          “… apologized during a Morgan County court hearing after pleading guilty to a felony criminal recklessness charge in the March 2009 death of Jason Breisch, 35.”

          Plead guilty to a felony? He’s not a gunsmith anymore. His FFL is gone. He can’t even own guns any more.

          Cops kill citizens? They don’t even get their pay docked.

    • Very well put. And cops aren’t taught the concept of “positive ID” before shooting someone? As in, that dude with the gun is actually posing a lethal threat to me, not just brandishing a gun?

      • All I want them to do is start with basics:

        1. Show up at the correct address. Read the address on the house, street sign, etc, and then read the address on the warrant in hand. There have been an increasing incidence of cops barging into a house for which they had no warrant, because the warrant they held in their hands was for a house across the street, or even on a completely different street than the one they’re standing on.

        2. In this case, notify the occupants that they’re seeking someone in the yard. This should be SOP, for the safety of both the homeowner and the cops. It takes only a few moments for one of the two cops to knock on the door and say “Sorry to disturb you sir/ma’am, we’re seeking an intruder in your yard.” Suddenly there is no situation. Would have taken all of, what 30 to 90 seconds?

  23. At a certain point, it becomes impossible to tell the difference between the most despicable street gangs and the best cops.

    We’ve reached that point.

    There will be no end to this savagery unless and until these murderers in uniform do not go home at night. Arm up, boys and girls. Arm up.

    • I’ve been saying for awhile, as long as the police insist that anyone not employed by the government is “the enemy” and maintain their “shoot first, ask questions never” policy, that Americans should have a “shoot on sight” policy towards police. A law abiding citizen on his own property legally possessing a gun? The police instantly shoot to kill. Our policy towards LEO scum should be no different.

      • “Shoot on sight” is not the same as self defense. I don’t trust cops, I don’t want to be around cops, but I’m not shooting someone just because they’re wearing a uni.

  24. This is a terrible tragedy. The family of this murdered Homeowner must be in agony. If these two Policemen go without severe consequence, it will be even worse, if that’s possible.

  25. Well, you guys sure have it figured out. Let’s kill all the cops. They’re all murdering New World Order thugs. Get rid of Law Enforcement all together. That’ll do it. We can all handle our own problems. Forget evidence collecting and due process. Like Dyspeptic Gunsmith said, just fire away at anyone in your curtilage. For those who don’t know that’s the area directly around your home. Yeah just shoot through the window or door. That’ll fix ’em. Don’t worry if it’s an actual threat or not. Just murder anyone in your yard. There’ll be no more police so you won’t be in trouble. Just watch out for the vengeful family of the drunk teenager you just shot. You guys are just giving the Antis more ammo to prove that us peasants can’t be trusted with guns. And as for me being a sycophant, Dyspeptic, name calling is what the loser in an argument resorts to when his reasoning fails.

      • Anytime I hear “Libtard”, “Teabagger”, “Demonrat”, etc. I already know the person I am talking with has no interest in debate. They just want to argue for argument’s sake. When people name call it takes away weight from their other words.

    • Sorry Chris, but you’re getting me plain old, ordinary pissed off! Your idiotic summation of the arguments of who don’t buy fully into hiding in our bedrooms while awaiting properly anointed LEO’s to arrive is both insulting and inaccurate. Continuing to make excuses for poor training, bad tactics, and the maddening lack of consequences when LEO’s kill innocents is, in your case, eroding the ‘bank of trust’ I typically extend to all TTAG participants.

      • Ok. So you’re pissed? Big deal. All I’m saying is just because you have a gun, going outside and confronting people in your yard might not be the smartest way to handle the situation. If they’re actively trying to get into your house, shoot them, but not in the yard. Going outside and being confrontational is only inviting trouble.

        • No. What you’re saying is that it’s perfectly okay for cops to kill innocent citizens, and do so without meaningful consequences. There is NO evidence this man behaved in any way “confrontational”. Unless… unless you’re arguing that checking out strange activities by unknown persons at 1:00 am is now to be considered ‘confrontational’, and justification for being shot at taxpayer expense. You’ve left the land of reason & logic and entered Bloomberg territory.

        • Snobard I am in no way saying any of the stuff you just made up. If someone is in your yard you are not in immediate danger. If you go outside you change that. Why open the door and place yourself and your loved ones in more danger? Just because you have the right doesn’t mean it’s the best course of action. Also Bloomberg sucks.

    • The clear, unequivocal fault here lies with the LEO’s. The cops had no cause to be around that homeowner’s house, period. They weren’t where they were summoned. They didn’t notify the homeowner. If the cops had actually thought there might be someone in the homeowners’ yard, their first course of action should be to notify the homeowners what is going on – that the police are searching for someone in the yard. The homeowner would then know who is outside and know to keep his nose on the inside of a locked door.

      These cops chose to be HS/LD and not bother telling anyone. These cops chose to not bother confirming the address, so they weren’t “chasing someone into the yard,” they were the intruders in the yard.

      I called you a sycophant because you are being the very definition of a sycophant. You’re putting the blame for this on the person who is without any blame. A homeowner who didn’t call the cops and wasn’t notified by the cops that they’re in his yard has a reasonable expectation that there those people sneaking around in his yard are not cops.

      My example of how that sword “cuts both ways” above is that when the cops want to claim “reasonable fear” for when they see a homeowner with a gun in his hand, the homeowner can make the same claim when he sees some unknown person with a gun in hand, pussyfooting around the direct perimeter of his house.

      Per the above, the absent any notification, the homeowner has a reasonable belief that unexpected people in his yard at night are not cops. How to avoid that? Easy: the police can exhibit some competence. Start with a) showing up at the correct address, where the occupants are actually expecting the cops to show up, and b) notify the occupants of any house before playing HS/LD in their yard. If the cops in this situation had done only (b), they not only would have avoided the fatal shooting of an innocent man, they would have also realized that they were at the wrong address and gotten quickly on their way to the people who actually called for the police to show up. As an aside, I wonder whether the people who called for the police ever saw any response that night? The entire situation reeks of epic incompetence.

      But you’re ready to dispense with any requirement of competence on the part of the LEO’s. It’s all the fault of the homeowner, who we should remember is an ad valorem taxpayer and is contributing to the funding of the salaries and benefits of the people who killed him.

      • I am the very definition of a sycophant huh?
        syc·o·phant [ síkəfənt ]
        fawning flatterer: a servile or obsequious person who flatters somebody powerful for personal gain

        Nothing of the sort. You should look up them big, smarty-pants words before you use them incorrectly. I never said the cops didn’t make dumb mistakes, but self defense only requires a perceived threat. They perceived a threat. The homeowner did not. Someone in your yard does not constitute a perceived threat. Unless they are shooting at the house or setting it on fire, etc. If he would have stayed in the house and he would still be alive. Did the cops make mistakes? Sure. But in the end running out with a gun in the middle of situation you have no idea what’s going on is a horrible idea. The police don’t have to notify you they are in your yard because it’s not illegal for someone to be in your yard unless it’s posted “No Trespassing” even then that doesn’t always apply to police. You know as well as I do that you don’t really own your property. You only rent it from the state. Don’t pay your property taxes and see what happens.

    • BTW, you do realize that in Texas, you can use lethal force to prevent theft or “criminal mischief” at night, right?

      See Texas Penal Code 9.42.

      • Do you really think that stealing property or criminal mischief is worth killing someone over? Would you kill someone for stealing your lawnmower or smashing your car windows? Of course you would. What am I thinking? I read your posts. As for me, I don’t want to live with the guilt of killing a 16 year old for a $100 worth of property.