http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw

“Connersville Police Chief David Counceller was shopping at Wulff’s Gun Shop in January, searching for a deal on a handgun,” indychannel.com reports. “Counceller was looking at a .380-caliber handgun and pulled out his Glock 23 to compare it with other gun. After he put the Glock back in his holster, Counceller tugged on his jacket. Within seconds, the Glock fired, striking him in the right leg. The incident was captured on store surveillance cameras.” No joke this – especially for those of us who carry striker fired handgun in outside-the-waistband holsters. I’ve pushed my shirt inside my holster many times. And this drawstring thing is no anomaly . . .

Deputy Steve Cooper, of the Marion County, Ore. Sheriff’s Office, accidentally shot himself in 2005 with his Glock 22.

While getting out of his cruiser, the gun fired, injuring his lower right leg.

“For a day or two, they were thinking of amputation,” he said.

An Oregon State Police investigation cleared Cooper, but blamed his windbreaker’s drawstring for getting caught in the trigger guard.

“When it initially happened, I was certain — there were four people in the car — I was certain someone else had done it. When they told me, ‘No, it was your own gun,’ it was pretty embarrassing,” Cooper said. “If I can prevent it from happening to somebody else, then I can get some good from what’s been a bad situation for me. I’ve got permanent damage to my leg, and my ego and I might as well try to make some good out of it.”

A jacket drawstring was also blamed in an accidental shooting involving a deputy in Louisiana. The deputy was using a Glock 23.

You have been warned. [h/t MR]

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

228 COMMENTS

        • I told you so! I don’t think the Glock needs another safety. I have been saying over and over that it does not need that stupid trigger safety. I described this actual negligent discharge saying “if anything is going to snag the trigger, it will depress the trigger safety at the same time”. This is a negligent discharge because he did not clear his holster before inserting the pistol. It is a violation to not take care when re holstering. I hate those videos that show those guys popping their pistols back in the holster just to show how quick they can do it without looking. I hate when people criticize shooters in videos when they look at their holster when they replace the pistol. They say stupid stuff like “you need to keep your eyes up to see if the threat comes back”. If you are worried about the chance that the threat may return, then why the f*** are you holstering your weapon? I carry a Glock and I am very aware that clothing can get in the trigger guard. If I don’t look at my holster I at least use my off hand to hold back anything hanging loose and to feel the opening is clear before I holster it. And if I feel any abnormal tension then I back it out and manually or visually check the clearance. Slow down and be careful. The timer stops on the last shot…don’t make it be in your leg.

      • You can easily manipulate the 1911 THUMB safety with one hand. That is why it is called a thumb safety and not a “fiddle with your other hand” safety.

        Nothing against glocks (except the shitty sights, grip angle and plastic trigger).

        • Why do people assume that they are going to have full control of their limbs when using a pistol. You are using a pistol cause it is a emergency. And I wasn’t talking about the thumb safety. That grip safety makes it almost impossible to use the 1911 with a injured hand. Or have you tried drawing it with the off hand and firing it upside down. Which people laugh at and call mall ninja. Until they meet people who have had to do it. Which makes you start rethinking manual safeties. Shit happens, you take frag thru your wrist from a guy with a s vest and you can only use the ring and pinky finger and have to fire your gun, or you take 30 rounds going thru a door. All these make it kinda hard to have But hey keep rocking that 1911.

        • Agree, Seans, and would add that the ‘in extremis’ shooting can also require weak-hand shooting from a rushed faulty grip.

        • I have no problem shooting “weak-side”(I am ambi when it comes to firearms). But I don’t understand why I would ever need to shoot upside down? I really don’t expect a suicide bomber in the middle of Norway.

        • If you are carrying a pistol for protection, it was cause you were not expecting to get into anything otherwise you would have brought at the least a rifle. If you are using a pistol for hunting, target practice or competitions, a safety is fine. But if you are using a pistol for defense, its most likely a emergency. If your defensive gun forces you to use it a certain way you probably should rethink it.

        • I use the safety when handling the gun. When it is holstered there is no need have it engaged. A 1911 style pistol with its grip safety is safer with the safety off than a Glock.

        • Don’t forget if your also hit with a meteor Seans. Got to take that into account as well.

        • Well, Seans how did all those GIs manage to survive with a safety on both their rifle and their sidearms?

        • Sean

          How about under water, buried in snow, blinded by Dalak laser? Gotta plan for those also.

        • You can accidentally manipulate the thumb safety with one hand. No thanks. I’ll trust my Glock. If I shoot myself, it is my fault, not the design of the weapon.

          How about this story:

          Cardinals Catcher Matheny Out For Season

          “Matheny was putting the knife in its sheath and it went right through, severing two flexor tendons and a nerve, Cardinals spokesman Brian Bartow said.”

          https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2FSports%2Fstory%3Fid%3D100367&ei=6wYfU-CDAorqkQeQ5YHgAw&usg=AFQjCNGugjtdJx5br7-A5dBGcWvoyOH22A&bvm=bv.62788935,d.eW0

        • Am i the only one that noticed that this happened because the professionally trained officer was using his loaded gun to compare instead of asking the shop to see the same model glock to compare with.

        • All of my firearms force me to manipulate the trigger in a certain way or they do not fire. Based on what i have read I need to get rid of all of them and find something more reliable and more effective.

      • And what is more likely to happen? A for real gunfight or getting something caught in the trigger guard upon reholstering? I’ve had drawstrings and shirts get close to that many times. Never had someone shoot at me yet.

        • If your primary worried more about the possibility of shooting yourself with your gun than how your guns ability in a gunfight you might want to rethink carrying a gun.

      • @seans
        What sort of wound would you have that would prevent you from activating the grip safety, yet still allow you to hold the gun well enough to shoot it?

        • AK round thru the hand for one guy. He took thirty rounds going thru the door. Plates stopped around 14 or 15. Another guy was close to a S Vest frag broke his wrist. And a cag guy who was wise enough to tape his grip safety, but still didn’t help him when trying to use his 1911 with a non functioning thumb.

        • I don’t think many of us have to worry about a thirty round burst from an AK disabling us. For one thing we won’t have body armor so whether we can disengage a safety is the least of our worries.

        • Don’t forget that if you let 30 rounds hit you, then you messed up. If you have to breach why not do it from the back, have something make noise in the opposite direction of you (cellphone alarm is good since it can be put on a timer or firecrackers)?

    • Springfield XD! A striker-fired polymer pistol with a grip safety. Best of both worlds.

      Or so I think. You can make your own decisions on that one; just don’t blame me if you shoot yourself in the leg with your not-a-Springfield pistol. 🙂

      • If you are reholstering, isn’t there a good chance your grip on the firearm is still disengaging the grip safety? Therefore the Springfield wouldn’t be any different. I’m not sure, but seems like it would still be the case.

        • That’s why I purposefully keep my hand off the grip safety when I re-holster my Springfield.

        • The appropriate method while holstering a Springfield is to avoid depressing the grip safety while doing so in order to take advantage of its ability to prevent an ND.
          It’s a slight bit awkward at first but as with anything it becomes second nature with practice.

        • Agreed. In my humble opinion this accident was the result of the gentleman being just a little too comfortable with re-holstering. One of the common gripes of the DeSantis or Sticky holsters is that they force a shooter to pull out the holster and re-holster with two hands. As a non-LEO carrier I welcome that as a plus. Anything that makes me think more deliberately about handling is good.

    • It could have discharged when he holstered it so…no, the grip safety is not a fail safe feature. Hey, it is possible to render a pistol 100% safe but what good is a defensive weapon when you have to jump through hoops to use it. And don’t tell me I need to train more to render the firearm operable. People need to train more to realize what can go wrong if you get careless.

      • The trigger safety on the Glock is a drop safety. That’s why everybody thinks it is stupid, because they don’t know what it’s for.

        If the Glock is dropped on a hard surface, the inertia of the trigger could be enough to trip the sear. The blade prevents this because it has very little mass and pivots at a different point than the trigger.

        • From Glock:
          “TRIGGER SAFETY”
          “As the first of the three GLOCK “Safe Action” safety features, the trigger safety prevents inadvertent firing by lateral forces on the trigger. Releasing the trigger will automatically reactivate the safety.”

          “DROP SAFETY”
          “In the line of duty it may happen that a loaded pistol is dropped on the floor. Contrary to conventional pistols, the GLOCK drop safety prevents unintentional firing of a shot through hard impact. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar is guided in a precision safety ramp. The trigger bar is deflected from this ramp only in the moment the shot is triggered.”

          The trigger safety is not the drop safety.

        • But in that case wouldn’t a DAO be even more drop resistant? I’m not knocking a Glock as I own one but the thought has crossed my mind a few times.

    • The way I see it, you’re already choosing a fair amount of your wardrobe around carrying the gun, from pants a bit larger for IWB carry, shirts that cover OWB hoslters, a belt to hold the weight, you might as well also get sweatshirts that don’t have a drawstring right there, or train yourself to hold it as well as the bottom of the sweatshirt or regular shirt as you reholster.

      As far as a grip safety, i’m in the camp of KISS for a carry gun. I plan on getting a glock 19 soon, not because i’m a huge glock fanboy, I see them as the iPhone or ford focus of guns, nothing really special about them, but when many people think of the general category of products, it is the specific example they picture.

      Sure the chances of being hindered by the grip safety are very slim, but the chances of needing the gun are pretty slim as well, and we’re already making fairly major lifestyle changes for a relatively unlikely event simply based on the severity of the outcome should it happen. Why not continue that idea when considering the guns features?

      Anyway, the drawstring danger was brought to my attention ages ago when I bought my first pistol and was voraciously reading The Gun Zone.

    • I won’t buy one; not just because of the “Glock-leg” potential (although it is stupid the way that was designed), but I just like the feel, heft, and durability of the Beretta/Taurus 92 genre. That’s just me. Other people love their 1911s. There are a number of good .380s out there, Glock isn’t one of them. So many people have gotten caught up in this “gotta get me a Glock” mindset; it’s like a mad rush of brain-dead liberals all running to an anti-gun rally and having no clue what the issues are about. They don’t know why, but hey, everyone else is doing it.

      • People whose opinions who do not validate my own opinion threaten me and therefore they must stupid because they have different preferences than me, and I am obviously right.

      • You’ve said nothing to qualify that Glock makes a poor pistol. And as far as the 92 genre, there’s a reason why the vast majority of those who’ve been issued and used a 92 variant have said it’s a horrible platform.

    • Exactly the same issue applies to the Walther PPQ, Paul, so you’ve already been assigned to the “defend striker fired pistols with no manual safety” side!

      • I’m considering switching from an XDM-9 to a PPQ M1, but am wary of the no-safety thing myself. On the one hand, I’ve certainly noticed that every story of a safety-less gun discharging when holstering involved a cop–not an occupation generally known for competence with firearms. On the other hand, I’m wary of pompous platitudes about how any time this happens the owner _must_ be an untrained idiot. I carry every time I leave my apartment, and I’m not always at 100% when I do that–sometimes it’s late at night and I’m sleepy, or sick, or frustrated about work, or otherwise having a bad day.

        To satisfy myself as to whether it’s safe, I’m carrying it unloaded but cocked in an IWB holster around my apartment, unholstering it and reholstering it randomly at all hours of the day and night. Eventually (provided that nothing snags the trigger while I’m reholstering it unloaded) I’ll be satisfied that it’s safe to carry loaded as my new carry pistol.

        • Ken, it really comes down to habits, perhaps? Why switch from an XDM? Some people don’t like the trigger. Is that the issue prompting your thoughts of a PPQ? The PPQ is accurate and has a very nice trigger, but I would think it is even more subject to ‘draw-string’ type vulnerability. It’s my only 9mm pistol. I’ve built my safety habits around these….unlike the Chief in today’s post. (I carry small .45ACP Glocks…)

          You site many good reasons to be wary of striker-fired guns lacking a manual safety. I don’t know XDM’s well, but perhaps some trigger work would be a less worrisome path? An XDS? Hopefully an XDM/S trigger expert will come across this comment…

        • To clarify, my comments were in regard to the PPQ, which is what I’m considering moving to (because, safety aside, I find I shoot it better than the XDM), and that’s the pistol I’m doing that trial period with.

          The XDM has a grip safety, so the reholstering safety concerns are not present–all you have to do is get in the habit of reholstering with your thumb on the back of the slide, so that the grip safety will not be activated.

  4. I live in South Florida and I tell you it’s happened to me many a times with the kayaks holsters is specially your shirt will get caught down in there as you’re putting the gun back in and I could see exactly how this happened just beware out there if you’re using a striker fired pistol without a thumb safety make sure nothing gets inside that trigger guard before you jam it in the holster or it will go bang!

    • And really, there is almost no reason one needs to reholster a gun in a hurry anyway. I realize the trigger on my glock could snag, so I take my time holstering.

  5. This happened at our academy too.
    Caused an abrupt change in reholstering techniques.

    • In my CCW licensing class and in many articles/books I’ve read on the subject, the recommendation is either to avoid a drawstring garment altogether or remove it, precisely to avoid having this happen.

  6. that was supposed to say Kydex holster. felt like I was doing a Yeti cooler commercial roto molded like kayaks

  7. Always always make sure reholstering isn’t done nonchalantly. Any time you put a loaded gun anywhere, make sure the trigger is free of obstructions. That’s not the jacket makers responsibility, not the gun store owners, not glocks, not john Moses browning. You. Yes you.

      • He’s going way past “consumer responsibility” and even, get this, demanding it of LEOs!

        • Damn straight. Personal responsibility is something lost on modern society. I’m bringing it back.

        • There are a lot of things lost on modern society. Personal responsibility, respect of self and others, restraint, a sense of decorum, work ethic, the list goes on and on.

    • Yup. I have to unholster my Glock 23 each time I get into the car (for legal open carry). When I reholster, I use my “weak” side hand (which is actually my dominant hand for most things) to make sure there is no clothing in the way.

      It’s just one of those things that needs to be made into a habit.

  11. Quick….lets rally the troops and ban sweatshirts with draw strings…they shoot people !!!

    • A child’s drawstring got caught in the handrail exiting a school bus. The driver shut the door and drove off. Before the other kids could get the drivers attention, the child was dragged to death.

  12. oh boy not another Glock vs 1911 argument I own a bunch of each! and I love them all. however as I get older I notice my case leaning more towards John Moses Browning 1911 classier sexier just more elegant of a firearm for an older gentleman!

  14. i’ve heard this story before, told as “a guy I know’s brother has a buddy that…”. but to see it here in black and white with names and dates, makes it real for me. I’m going to consider going back to my 1911. It is what I started with, and shot the most with. I like my Glock, but I like all 10 of my toes a lot more.

    • If you want higher capacity than the standard 8 rounds consider getting a doublestack 1911 (14 rounds of .45 acp or 18 rounds of 9×19).

        • That’s what I always say. He should be dead.

          Wait. Shot placement? Even with 45acp?
          Whaaaaaaat?

          (Hyperbole intended)

        • Don’t forget about the “hydrostatic shock” caused from .45acp, good fellows.

          I guess the “hydrostatic shock” part must’ve been when he flinched and walked away, I’m not sure though.

        • My dumbass cousin shot himself in the leg with a .45 pistol. Bullet entered his upper leg, traveled the length of his leg and exited thru his foot. He walked himself to the car and drove himself to the hospital. He never fell or dropped to the ground.

          When people tell me the .45, or any other handgun, is a sure fire fight stopper I know they’ve never been in a fight.

      • PS: that ND was due to SERPA holster design, and Tex’s finger sliding off release button onto trigger when he yanked it out, I believe.

        The reason IPDA doesnt allow SERPA holsters on the range now.
        A better alternative is a Safari-land with thumb release.

        Nick Leghorn covered this a couple years ago:
        http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/robert-farago/nick-leghorn-is-right-about-the-blackhawk-serpa-holster/

        Again, training rules – USMC have been using same release on the issued drop-leg SERPA holsters for years, I believe, because of the SERPAs strong retention while rolling around on the ground. That drop leg is ok for hunting with a pack, except the harness wears on ya, after hiking a ways.

        • Tex had been using a Glock and a holster with a thumb release, he then switched to the 1911 and the serpa. Having different holsters for the different guns threw him off and he flipped the safety of the 1911 of because of the muscle memory from the glock holster. He then started jabbing at the serpa release with his finger bent (instead of straight) and yanking on the gun. Finger slipped in the trigger guard and “bang”.

      • Yes but if he had shot himself with a 9mm he wouldn’t have even bothered going to the doctor. Take a couple of Homeopathic remedies and get back to work.

    • I use Glocks plenty, and probably will continue to do so. But when I’ve commented on the potential of this happening IF THE USER ISN’T CAREFUL 100% of the time, responses I get go something like “nuh uh, there is that blade thingy in the trigger that makes it impossible for anything but the human finger to pull it!”

      I’m sorry for the poor guy that this happened to, but I consider it a learning resource and hard evidence that I am glad I can finally point to when trying to give people as much info as possible to help them make the best decision for themselves.

      I’d never turn anyone away from Glock but I think it prudent to admonish people of the potential risks of any course of action, when asked, and to advise them on the appropriate level of care necessary to obviate those risks.

      • Makes no difference what safety features are part of a gun if one is not using one’s brain.

  16. now we know two things-
    -don’t slide down ladders after trying to kill little kids in Waco
    -careful about drawstrings in jackets when carrying a loaded gun

  17. I thought about that when my shirt snagged inside my holster as I was returning my Glock 23 to its leather OWB holster. While unholstering quickly can be a matter of life and death, re-bolstering is not.

    It may be a moot point now because I managed to break that Glock 23. I plan on dropping it off to my local gunsmith to see if I can ascertain exactly what happened.

  18. “In 1999, Counceller accidentally shot himself in the hand while assembling a gun he thought was not loaded.”

    What? What does that even mean? Sounds like dude may be a bit of a doofus.

    • How, I ask, can someone be so magical as to be able to have a disassembled gun that is still loaded? Sounds to me like the chief had a magical ability to get a bogus explanation accepted the last time he pulled an ND.

  20. It’s not just glock, this is a potential problem for every single gun that doesn’t have a grip safety or an engaged external safety

    • Yep. One of the reasons that I would own a GLOCK as a nightstand gun, but wouldn’t carry one as a EDC.

    • There are these guns that are either DAO or DA/SA that don’t have external safeties that this wouldn’t be a problem with. Just keep your thumb on the hammer when you holster and you will be fine.

      • Ding. HK P30 LEM. No stinking safeties, especially no trigger fake safeties. There is also a truly stellar striker fired pistol out there looks like a gun and a stapler got all brown chicken brown cow… I’m talking about the H&K P7 series. That is a fine pistol.

  21. Re-holstering is. always a concern. I ~only~ carry from the 4 o’clock position (figuring a hole in my cheek is survivable), plus shift my hand to club-carry (hand wrapped around barrel/trigger guard with palm over trigger. area) to slide the pistol into place. It’s cool-looking, certainly not operating operationally, but it’s become habit & lessens my chances for sprouting a new orifice.

  22. How about you not wear jackets with dangly crap on them if you’re carrying a gun? Isn’t clothing or belt crap that gets in the way of holstering or drawing a bad idea?

  23. That’s why one should use his non-firing hand to clear any cover garment/jacket before reholstering.

    • Exactly! There are ways to mitigate the risks inherent in this kind of design by staying aware and being proactive every time you reholster a gun.

    • One is expected to yank your cover garment out of the way of one’s presentation, it should not be outside the realm of logic to manage same garment during holstering.

  24. This is exactly why the ATF tried to ban 10″ long shoe/jacket strings. who says they don’t have our best interests in mind?

    Also… who owns a jacket which still has draw strings ? Mine get mutilated or go missing within weeks?

    • Getting into the habit of looking at your holster while reholstering puts you at risk in the right DGU situation. If you have a gun or holster that doesn’t allow reholstering without you looking at the holster, you have the wrong tool…IMHO.

      • Why would you be putting away your gun if there is still a possibility of a threat? Being able to holster without looking is one thing when you are wearing a kit, but it is another when you are carrying concealed.

      • You should never reholster if there is any threat at all of further need for the weapon. You shoot, make sure the “threat” is down, plug it a couple more times if necessary, then check around to make sure there are no more “threats” … if you are unsure, you keep your firearm ready for action in low ready.

        You ONLY holster when you have no more need of your handgun.

        At which time you should carefully watch it back into the holster, trigger finger well clear, no obstructions.

        This may strike some as “complicated” but … it is not.

        It just requires the uncommon “common sense” you hear so much about.

    • There is one, and it doesn’t always apply.

      When you have to reholster in the face of a threat, but not necessarily a lethal one, you want to be able to keep your eyes in that direction. For example, if a cop needs to put handcuffs on someone who has dropped a weapon.

      During department training, which is done in uniform with a duty belt and no dangly obstructions, we are specifically told not to watch the holster.

      • Edit- I see this has already been mentioned, should have refreshed the page before commenting. For non police situations, there is far less need to reholster in the face of a threat. If you think you need to do it, though, you need to practice it. Otherwise you may end up with an ND just like the article.

      • So, what you are saying is the cop should have known better than the non-experts/untrained among us? But then again, he had a dangly thing there after he unholstered his hot weapon in a gun store to compare it with another gun.

        Seems like a whole lot of cop-fail all the way around.

        • I’m not saying he wasn’t wrong. Clearly he was wrong, or it wouldn’t have happened. I’m saying that there is a valid reason for not watching your gun go back into the holster. This adds risk, and it is not always something you need to do, but if you think you need to do it you had better make sure you can do it without torching a round off into the floor, your leg, or anywhere else.

      • On the other hand, anyone who has ever wrecked a car, even when they were trying hard to be careful, can attest to the fact that it’s humanly impossible to be 100% of everything happening around us 100% of the time. One momentary lapse and BOOM, extra orifice. I use Glocks but tend to prefer a gun with some type of safety in some roles simply because I acknowledge my own capability to make mistakes. To err is human.

        • Yes I agree we are all human and humans are not perfect and sometimes we make mistakes. There’s a local policeman here that accidentally shot himself in the butt with a Glock but lived to tell about it. I have an xd-40 and I love the grip safety but wish it also had a thumb safety since it’s a striker fired gun. I’m thinking about getting a DA/SA gun with a hammer.

      • A quick glance is not “watching your holster”.
        I wrap my off hand around my waste and hold back any loose clothing (which happens all the time with my IWB holster). I feel the opening with my hand to verify it is clear. If I feel something obstructing the path, I take a quick glance to determine what-where-why-how to clear it then I clear it. If my shirt is FUBAR then I switch the gun to my off hand and unclip the holster then insert the gun in my field of view and basically redress. This is my own set of rules to suit my pistol and carry method. On duty cops and open carry guys should have other rules but “safety” is a useless word. It doesn’t exist. We all want to be safe but it is more useful to just “be careful”. You can control “careful”. You can’t control “safe”.

  27. And the shop owner said he’s never seen anything like this happen in 34 years. This just goes to show that one cannot take anything for granted when it comes to safety.

  28. Accidents happen. If you don’t want them to happen to you, be very conscious of every action you take with a firearm at any time, or don’t carry with one in the chamber. Dealer’s choice.

      • I tried to think of a true accident. All I could come up with were nature related. A boulder dislodges and falls on your car while driving in the mountains. This sort of thing. Everything else is negligence.

  29. OK, as a guy who disassembles and re-assembles guns for a living, how the dickens can someone shoot themselves while re-assembling a gun “they didn’t know was loaded?”

    While the gun is disassembled, there’s not much chance that you don’t see a live round in the works. Especially in a Glock, where everything is nice and uniformly black or silver. The brass and copper of a jacketed round… they’re going to kinda stick out like a doofus wearing plaid at funeral. I mean, seriously… where the *(&(*&^ is the round going to hide in the pile of parts?

    How many standard deviations below the mean does someone’s IQ have to be to not notice a live round in the midst of re-assembling a gun? Three, four?

    This is yet another case of “Sack them all. They’re simply too stupid to be worthy of taxpayer monies.”

      • Yea, I’m not buying that bullcrap for a minute.

        If that had been a non-cop, he’d have been prosecuted for murder.

    • I don’t believe for one second that 99% of these “accidental shootings” happened while the user was cleaning their gun. Absolute crap. They were playing with it, pure and simple. That’s what they were doing and then made up an excuse to try and cover up their stupidity. It reminds me of when we had one of the sailors in security department discharge his M9 inside the armory. Fortunately, nobody got hurt. He claimed, and was initially believed by the firearms-ignorant CO and XO, that he was un-holstering it for turn-in and it slipped out of his hand; when he caught it, he accidentally pulled the trigger. When asked how the safety became disengaged, his defense was that the pistol was old and the safety must have failed. Bullsh*t. It was well known among the other officers on the ship that I was pretty knowledgeable about firearms, so the CO appointed me as the investigating officer to examine the evidence, talk to witnesses, and write up a report of my findings. I questioned the accused sailor several times and his story changed a little but each time, which I documented and had him sign after each session. I then tested the M9 and proved that the safety was not faulty and that even if it had failed it would have required 11 lbs (I measured) of direct, consistent, and deliberate pressure to to fire the weapon in double action, which it was in according to the sailor’s story. He finally admitted that he had disengaged the safety and was cocking and decocking the pistol and generally playing with it when he dropped it, or fumbled with it more accurately. The safety was disengaged, the hammer was cocked and his finger was on the trigger when fumbled the firearm, causing it to discharge. After reading my report, the XO recommended the sailor to Captain’s Mast where he got the maximum penalty. The CO also recommended him for administrative separation. I left the ship before the AdminSep Board convened, so I don’t know what happened to him.

      • Totally agree…it is stupid to say, “It went off while I was cleaning it.”

        We all know that is baloney.

        It went off because like an idiot you did NOT check to make absolutely sure it was EMPTY before you STARTED cleaning it.

  32. Once I got my CPL and started to carry, I got rid of my Glock and replaced it with a Ruger LC-9 for similar concerns.

    Personally, I’ve never trusted the safety being inside the trigger.

    Ya I know, I know… many of you don’t like having a safety at all. Buf for those occasions I want one, I have one; and for those times I don’t want one, I can turn it off and rely on the LC-9’s 50lb-10″ (lol) trigger pull to make sure I actually want to fire.

  33. Does this one fall into the elusive slot of “accidental” discharge? Still kind of user error, but much less egregious than most.

      • I can totally see that. Still negligent in that he didn’t carefully clear the obstruction, but if anything rises to the level of AD, it’s gotta be this one. I’ll be holstering in the slowmo the rest of the day.

        • Accidents don’t happen except in nature without first being negligent. Don’t agree? I just looked up the antonym for “negligent”.
          careful
          attentive
          caring
          mindful
          successful
          Looking at it like this, I don’t believe there is such a thing as an “accidental discharge” with a firearm.

    • If you use the military way of describing it, no. ADs should be reserved for malfunctions of the gun. If the trigger is pulled its a ND. Plus this is completely negligent, he was handling it and was at fault. If some chick put it in her purse and her lipstick set off the gun would you call it a AD?

  34. Interestingly, just his past week I was reading a “CCW for Dummies” type of info that recommended cutting such entanglements from one’s clothing with re-holstering and drawing problems in mind. Didn’t go into the ND zone, but there is someone out there who thunk of this before.

    • That may have been geared toward clearance for the draw. This should be talked about more often and I would like to see less emphasis on the speed of holstering and trying to do it without looking. You know how those “operators” yell at you when you look down? F*** that man. I am going to be careful when I holster my gun . Just like landing an airplane. That is when bad things happen.

  35. Another of many many striker fire accidents. I won’t carry a striker fire or a 1911 cocked and locked pistol. My choice for over 30 years is Old-Fashion DA=SA Sig with 10 pound DA pull with a stiff holster covering the trigger.

      • It would indeed be very difficult to accidentally discharge a condition one 1911 during a reholster or anything else really. The level of negligence involved would be stupendous given that 2 active safeties would have to be overcome and the trigger pulled, it’s almost inconceivable.

      • We need a “Gun God” to tell it so people will get it. Maybe then it would be added to the four basic rules for firearms.
        1) The gun is treated as loaded
        2) Don’t let the muzzle cross anything you don’t want to destroy
        3) Know your target and what is beyond it
        4) Do not touch the trigger until your sights are on the target and you are ready to fire.
        5) Something can easily get inside the trigger guard when holstering that will result in a negligent discharge.

  36. I guess I’ll have to add this to my list of reasons why I prefer a carry gun with a safety.

  37. Every gun shop I’ve visited doesn’t allow loaded guns to be unholstered. Considering the ND history of police, there shouldn’t be any exceptions.

    • Yeah, I don’t really get why he unhook steered his gun. I know he claims it was to check the size difference between firearms, but I have never known a gun shop to be cool with someone doing that.

    • I agree. But it was the Chief. “I’m probably the only person in this gun shop qualified to handle a loaded Glock safely!” It’s deja vu all over again.

      Think I’ll watch the Miami DEA guy shoot his foot with a Glock just to deepen the cautionary memory. It isn’t about Glocks. It’s about guys starting to believe their own agency press releases.

        • I just read those reports. What a bunch of bullshit. One said that the toggle of the drawstring “worked its way into the trigger guard”. NO IT DIDN’T! He holstered it that way!
          The other one quoted an “expert” ” Nick Errede of New Britain, a veteran of 33 years in the military and an NRA-certified instructor for 15 years.” “The Glock is a “double-action” handgun, the instructors said, meaning when the trigger is pulled, the hammer cocks, then drops, striking the firing pin and causing the gun to discharge.”
          Uhh…there is no hammer in a Glock.
          The answer here is simple guys…make sure you holster your pistol with no obstructions no matter what pistol you carry. If the trigger is not depressed, it will not fire.

    • Most LGS won’t allow you to draw a loaded pistol in the shop. . . unless you’re one of the inner circle and the Chief likely was. I’ve had mine in and out at my LGS trying different holsters or making comparisons if they don’t have what I’m carrying in stock. It’s not something encouraged generally but then again we shoot together as well. There is a level of trust.

  38. Wearing a windbreaker, or fleece with a drawstring better opt for a slide safety 1911!
    also that chief shot himself before, seems like a person issue not the gun :p

    • Irresponsible murderer of the day. Even cops aren’t that incompetent.

        • I could write the definitive guide to heavy drinking and I’ve never been that drunk. And I have a whole phase of my life I refer to as my 151 phase.

  40. This is why I plan on NOT taking my gun out EVER unless it’s to immediately clear it or shoot bad guys.

    Comparing a loaded gun in a gun store? Not where you want an ND.

  42. I can’t tell from the video whether the off duty officer was carrying open or concealed. Still, the officer had NO BUSINESS taking his loaded carry piece out of his holster. He was handling a loaded weapon in a public place. Not cool. My LGS would have asked me to leave had I done the same thing, regardless of whether I shot myself or not.

    • Depends on the shop, how busy, level of trust, etc. The regulars in my main shop are all trusted and unholstering is not uncommon. Generally we ask or give some warning, it is not just to compare something silly, but for holster sizing, to try rail accessories, etc. Unholster, make safe, do your thing, reload, administratively charge, and re-holster.

      The other day a State Trooper was in the store that did not know me, so I did wait for him to go outside to his car before I charged and re-holstered, because I had this little voice telling me that me racking one into the chamber with him standing 3 feet from me might put him on edge.

  44. I don’t fear striker fired pistols, but for safety sake I have removed the drawstrings from my PJs. I use duct tape to hold up my jammies now. It works great but it really itches.

  48. I have been ripping the Glock as an unsafe firearm since I started coming to TTAG. These kinds of incidents where something snags the trigger are why I never recommend a Glock. If you want a striker fired, ready to go handgun buy a Springfield. The grip safety prevents things like this from happening. And remember, you don’t need to engage the safety on a 1911 style or Beretta pistol unless you are going to handle the gun. They are just as ready to go as a Glock.

    • If you use the safety on your Beretta, you better get in the habit of using it all the time. It is not a matter of “only when I am handling it”. The day you need to save your life, you may be in “handle mode”.

      • By handle, I mean to secure or other “non-operational” handling of the weapon. When it is in the holster ready to go the safety is off. Now, I don’t carry a Beretta, the wife does, because I have used 1911s for so long that I will instinctively push down on the safety which engages it instead of disengaging it. If you don’t like manual safeties then get a Springfield, the grip safety prevents these kinds of NDs.

        • Sorry…wrong answer…no safety will prevent any type of negligent discharge.
          What if he didn’t tug on his jacket? What if he went home to his family and before taking off his jacket, he decided to draw his gun to lay it down? What if he had a grip safety and while drawing it, the draw string pulled the trigger? This time it was pointed at the wall. This time his wife was in the kitchen on the other side of the wall and she was shot.
          All you safety advocates are trying to replace personal responsibility with a device that makes you lazy and overly confident.
          I don’t want an XD. I have a perfectly functional Glock 19. I am not so stupid to think that this can’t happen to me so I am careful. Especially when holstering. Glock owners are trying to learn from this. 1911 owners are being reinforced with a false sense of security.

  49. So… How does that silly little flippery doo-da in the trigger stop the trigger being pulled by something other than a finger. Yup, just as I thought. It’s crap.

    • It’s technically known as the “trigger dingus.” 🙂

      I think it’s actually more intended to make sure the trigger doesn’t go back just because you dropped the gun, rather than to prevent a non-booger-hook from pulling the trigger.

      • Is that why they call it a “safe trigger”? I really never understood what was supposed to be “safe” about it–if you intentionally pulled the trigger , the gun went off (assuming a chambered round); if you accidentally/negligently pulled the trigger, it still went off, right? how is it safer than the trigger on my P-64?

        • Beats the heck out of me. The rationale I stated is basically the only one I can think of for bothering with the trigger dingus.

  50. So, the trigger was pulled and weapon fired… Yep, that is exactly how I like my guns to work.

  51. if you are too shook up to remember the safety youre probably gonna miss any way…probably….

  52. Point:

    There is no end all be all to any type of mechanical safety on a fire arm. They all have their benefits and downsides. Awareness and proper handling is your best friend.

  53. This kind of thing can happen even with a worn leather holster. Two lessons..
    1) not all of these stories are bullshit (you can bet people would have been throwing that flag if it wasn’t caught on camera saying he was lying).
    2) Care and attention should be paid not only to any way you handle a gun but also how you dress around it. It’s like putting a gun in your pocket with your keys… no.

  54. To the posters discussing the trigger safety – I believe it was Patrick Sweeney who wrote that it was actually designed by Glock as a drop safety. Evidently the weight of the trigger itself could cause the gun to fire if dropped from high enough and at the right angle. It was never meant as a safety against poor handling, but it does have a purpose.

    • It’s difficult to imagine the plastic trigger of a Glock causing it to discharge under dropping speeds. . . 5.25 lbs avg pull weight and a trigger that weighs a couple of grams? That thing would have to be well past super sonic to impart 5lbs of force (M*V=E). Either the engineers didn’t know anything about physics (doubtful) or the ‘safety’ was designed for some other purpose . . .like making people (perhaps import authorities in the US) think the pistol was safer than it actually is.

      The bottom line is that it’s the user who has to adapt. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Glock design but it requires caution, just as their is nothing inherently wrong with a 1911 other than it requires a different training set. Both are compromises and perhaps both suited to different situations. There isn’t any perfect gun, even for a given set of circumstances, there will always be trade offs.

        • That being the case, what could it possibly prevent from happening? Things that snag the trigger will engage it as well, unless it is the most glancing sort of impact on the trigger.

          Experimentation with a (yes, unloaded) Glock shows me that any force applied to the trigger that could (hypothetically) move it back will engage the trigger dingus and thereby actually move it back. How do you snag the trigger without also pulling on the trigger dingus? What real purpose does it serve? People can call it a “trigger safety” all they want. That doesn’t explain how the thing is any damned use at all. Someone can point to a grip safety and say “this will prevent the gun from firing, even if something is pulling on the trigger, unless a hand is also gripping the grip” But apparently the trigger dingus will only prevent the trigger from being pulled back, if nothing is pulling back the trigger. Uh, what?

        • SteveInCO,
          I am no fan of the trigger safety. It doesn’t hinder my shots but I have always said that it is a useless gadget. I was just pointing out to the other guys that were claiming it was a drop safety that it is not.

        • Fair enough. I thought it was intended to function as a drop safety too, until earlier today.

          So now we have a dunsel of a part on our glocks, since there doesn’t seem to be any rationale for it whatsoever. On the other hand it doesn’t cause any harm either (besides making the gun more expensive to manufacture).

  55. Happens all the time with Glocks, they have a short relatively light trigger pull compared to a revolver and no external safety like a 1911 style semi. Anybody who Mexican carries with a chambered Glock is crazy stupid. This video proves even the proper retention holster doesnt prevent unintended discharge. You can still blame the cop for not foreseeing his pullstring might entangle his Glock, but come on.

    I love Glocks but have been wishing for a thumb safety version for years. You can get a Springfield XD45 4″ service model with a thumb safety, its positioned and operates exactly like a 1911 safety for guys who were weaned on the 1911 but want a higher cap striker polymer pistol. However they do not offer the thumb safety on their compact XD models for some odd reason. Glockophiles might bash me that a thumb safety is unneccesary but that extra split second taking the safety off is not going to matter in the real world, and the extra measure of safety is worth it. Ask the pro 1911 shooters if a thumb safety makes them any less of a gunslinger. If you know your gun you wont leave the safety on by mistake.

    • “This video proves even the proper retention holster doesnt prevent unintended discharge.”
      A proper holster doesn’t contain anything but the gun it was intended to retain.

  56. I heard this a long time ago from Jerry Barnhart, there are 2 kinds of people in this world (of shooting), those that have had an AD and those that are going to have an AD. Be careful folks!

  57. “KEEP YOUR BOOGER-H–wait…” This story does nothing to convince me I’m wrong for thinking I want a DA/SA with a manual safety and external hammer. I would like to see comparison numbers on the “safeties get you killed” argument that rule out factors of surprise, weapon malfunction, or the user keeping his finger OFF the trigger while “pulling it” like that guy who was almost carjacked of his 1992
    pathfinder by a left-handed carjacker. Can’t remember the name but all that detail, go figure.

  58. Interesting discussion. Bottom line to me is that you must know your weapon, you must practice with your weapon (handling, using, drawing, shooting), you must be fully aware at all times of surroundings, your weapon and it’s status. I carry a full size 1911 cocked and locked, have for more years than I care to remember. The first time I carried my 1911 though, i carried hammer down, no round in the chamber so I could begin to understand and know what I was feeling and know what was an uncommon feeling. My next step was to carry cocked and locked no round in the chamber. To me the next logical step. These first two steps were also compromised of drawing practice from concealment and not moving until I felt comfortable. Final stage was cocked and locked with round in the chamber, my normal carry mode.

    Taught my wife to shoot with my 1911, she qualified for CCH with it as well. She wanted something not as heavy, which I fully understood. Bought her a Glock 26 for conceal carry. First Glock I have ever bought, but not the first one I have shot or handled. Several buddies of mine have them and i have shot thousands of rounds from a Glock. I have begun to implement the same type of training with her, and with me as I might have instance to carry the 26. The first thing is to go over safety on the Glock, it is not a 1911 and hence has inherent differences. Once again know your weapon. First order of business is to familiarize with the gun and become comfortable shooting it. Next how will I or her carry it, third get the proper carry equipment, ie holster, next carry unloaded, then carry loaded no round in chamber, finally if and when comfortable and fully confident that it can be carried loaded, I or she will proceed. Once again, this method has worked for me quite well. It’s my two cents worth. I also use to be a Glock bashing 1911 shouting praise kind of guy, I still love my 1911, but I have no problem shooting or recommending a Glock. Sorry for the long post, I rarely post anywhere, mainly read and think, practice and shoot.

  59. I like how situational ignorance is a “design flaw” on the part of Glock. No worse than 30 rounds make you a mass murderer. Idiots are idiots regardless of what tool they are using. And wearing drawstrings is basic “Bearing Arms 101” stuff.

  60. Two things:
    1. Yes, you should always ensure your holster is clear. But (at the risk of sounding all tacti-fool) unless it’s a cover garment, you shouldn’t have all types of s#^t hanging from you in the first place. Especially if you’re a cop on duty.

    2. re•volv•er. No safeties needed, NDs almost never and a chambered in grown up calibers.
    Yeah, yeah, I know. Limited capacity(a), slow reloads(b), bulky design(c), blah blah(d).
    To that I say:

    a. If you’d carry a 7 or 8 shot 1911 (let alone a 6 or 7 shot pocket .380/9mm) 6 rounds of .357 is barely less (and really more, in some ways). 7 rounds in a 686+ is even closer. Or even better, carry a S&W R8/TRR8 (8 rounds of .357 magnum goodness in a lightweight frame. With accessory rails, even.) And before anyone says “That’s why I carry a GLOCK 17 or FNH Tactical with 15 rounds of .45ACP!”, see the second point in ‘b.’ below.

    b. Reloads. Sure, they’re somewhat slower (not that much with speedloaders, even less so with moon clips). But it’s a difference of single-digit seconds.
    More importantly though, running your gun dry and having to re-up (even a 6 shooter) is FAR less likely in real life than having to perform a malfunction drill. Talk about slowing you up and having to call on fine motor skills under pressure…

    c. Even a single stack 1911 comes in (unloaded) at 2.4 lbs and is 1.25″ thick (at the grips). The G19 is 1.3lbs (unloaded) and 1.18” thick.
    The aforementioned 8 shot S&W weighs 1.5lbs (empty) and is 1.7″ at it’s widest point (the cylinder).
    My SP101 weighs the same as the TRR8 and is 1.35” at the cylinder.

    d. blah blah right back at you. Plus you won’t end up with that signature Tex Grebner limp.

    jus sayin’

    • Thank you for this comment. I’d never really seen the draw to a wheel gun, and this a sound argument in its favor. I may rethink my writing them off as “not for me”.

      • While you’re rethinking, let me just say–I am certainly not the gun guru a lot of the folks hereabouts are. But I have been around guns and shooters for around three decades or so. In that time I have seen numerous malfunctions with semi-autos: FTFs, stovepipes, rim-locked .32 ACPs, and inexplicable breakdowns, on firearms ranging from no-name trotline weights to Glocks (that one was the “inexplicable breakdown) to Kimbers, in hands experienced and inexperienced I have seen exactly one (1) revolver breakdown–a 1942 Nagant revolver, a piece of the lockwork involved with pushing the cylinder forward broke. I will even go out on a limb and guess that my overall experience is not unique.

        • 50 years around guns. 3 revolver breakdowns in that time. 1 internal parts breakage that well and truly screwed the pistol until a gunsmith got it and 2 ammo malfunctions that took minutes to clear.

          Every trip to the range someones bottom feeder is acting up. I’ve seen people grip it wrong and dump a loaded mag on the ground. Think of the stress of a real DGU.

    • I agree. I own a Glock 19 and after arguing with 1911 guys all day I say that if I ever buy another hand gun, it will be a .357 revolver.
      The wheel-gun isn’t going away and it isn’t just because of collectors.

      • I remember reading the recommendation for a first gun as a DA wheelgun in .357 mag on the Chuck Hawks website. Makes sense. The more I read, the more the argument for a Glock sounds like the no helmet argument for motorcycles. The helmet will break your neck, just like a safety will get you killed. In each case, the safety and the helmet getting you killed seems to me less likely to occur than them helping you when all goes to hell. The long even pull seems to split the difference between too hard and too easy to fire off the first shot.

    • Of course Ruger and S&W have a good rep but what about Taurus and Rossi revolvers? Aren’t they considered unreliable and twitchy or is that all an exaggeration?

  61. Greetings. This is my first post here with all of you. This seems like a nice place.

    All that about revolvers… I totally agree. A revolver will never let you down. At least a good one. (S&W)

    Now about Glocks… I gotta say, for the longest time I absolutely hated Glocks. I can’t really say why I disliked them so much, it may have been that so many “so-called” know-it-alls bragged so much about them. (Ya want a real gun… get yerself a Glock) That just bugged me so much. Then, after years of feeling the way I did, I finally picked up a model 21 one day in a gun-store, looked it over, fondled it, dry-fired it, and said to myself, “Now why did I hate these things again?” For the first time I saw this work-of-art with a new perspective. I’ve been a gunsmith for over 35 years and I’ve shot and worked on hundreds of guns, the Glock is one of the best defensive handguns I think that I’ve seen. Oh, I bought that Glock 21 .45ACP, by-the-way; great shooter.

    I guess my only gripe with it, is the stupid trigger safety. As far as I’m concerned, it serves no purpose at all. It doesn’t prevent drop fire discharges, even if they really happened. And let’s please get realistic here, if something actually pushes on the trigger, what is this thing really preventing? If you ask me, nothing at all. To me, all it is, is uncomfortable to my finger. And I don’t know about any of your guys’ess Glocks, but mine had a rather light trigger pull. It made me feel a little uneasy carrying it with one in the pipe. Because to me, the Glock really didn’t have a safety on it, that’s what this article is all about. If something gets inside the trigger hole and moves rearward with any force, the gun is gonna go bang. We all are familiar with Murphy’s law now, aren’t we. I installed the SiderLock on my gun, which is an excellent device by-the-way, and this gave me the real sense of safety with it on. Later now, I bought one of these newer side mounted manual safeties, it’s more like your standard 1911 style safety. But in order for you to install it, you do have to cut a small slot in the frame of the gun. Some may not wish to do this to their high-priced Glock, but to me it was well worth it and it really does work great. If you asked me, I’d say this is what should have been designed on the Glock in the first place. I went so far as to remove the original trigger lock and fill-in the empty slot too. Ahhh… the trigger feels so nice now, I love it. Now, with the safety engaged, nothing that gets onto or into the trigger is gonna make the gun go bang. The safety kit is really well made; you can buy it from Brownell’s for about $85. The SiderLock is pretty good too; you can buy those for about $45. With the SiderLock you don’t have to damage the gun in any way; you can always return it back to it’s original state. But really… why?

    I tell ya, this is a great solution to the problem this article speaks of.

Comments are closed.