“A former police officer, accused of killing two people during a robbery at an east Tennessee pharmacy, gunned down his victims after they complied with his demands for painkillers,” the AP reports. “The victims had just given Jason Bryan Holt several bottles of oxycodone when he began the killing at the Down Home Pharmacy in the community of Bean Station, said Grainger County District Attorney Jimmy Dunn. ‘There was no confrontation,’ Dunn said. ‘He just shot them.'” I bring this story to your attention because New York legislators are set to create a “carve-out” for ex-cops that would exempt them from the Empire State’s SAFE Act prohibition against “assault rifles” and “high-capacity” magazines. And that’s just wrong. But let me be clear . . .
I believe police are, as a group, more likely to commit a firearms-related crime than the general population. Day after day, I read story after story about cops gone bad, from the above story of a double homicide to today’s latimes.com tale of SWAT and SIS team members selling department-sourced guns off the books.
I have no statistical evidence to back-up the suggestion that ex-cops are more likely to enable or create “gun violence” than any other group of civilians. In the same sense that there’s no evidence that ex-cops are any more law-abiding than their fellow citizens.
What difference does it make? United States citizens are innocent until proven guilty. All of them have a natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. So if ex-cops want to own a dozen or more modern sporting rifles in the Empire State, why not? If they want umpteen magazines that can hold 10, 20, 30 or 100 rounds, sure.
Just don’t tell me that they have any special right to do so. Because they don’t. Again, anyone who supports a “carve-out” for cops that allows them to exercise their gun rights while denying fellow citizens those same rights is supporting tyranny. The gun grabbers are OK with that, but The People of the Gun most decidedly are not.
Nor will they ever be.
Any cop is a citizen first….
“All men are created equal…..”
Maybe they’re citizens, but you’re still just a civilian.
Being retired military, I always get a kick out of multi-star po-po chiefs berating “civilians” an how they don’t know jack about firearms and to leave it to the “pros”…
It gets even better when you consider how many
departments hire “civilian” instructors and
practice in places with “civilian” range officers.
Retired cop, friend of mine, told me once that the attitude is simple. There are only two kinds of people, cops and perps.
I have a different attitude. There are citizens and there are government employees. Government employment should entail a loss of rights and privileges that honest citizens enjoy.
Mike, I’ve heard the story there are three types of people according to cops:
1) Other cops.
2) Friends and family of cops.
3) Low-life scum.
Crooks are in category 2. The people are in category 3.
YES. You are correct, a hundred times over.
You’d think one of those kitted-up dudes in the above picture could lean over and pick up that food litter.
As a former officer, I have no special privilege .
But I do believe that the vast majority of officers felt an obligation to step up and protect the people.
To make such a blanket statement denigrates all of us.
Now if you can provide data, police v citizenry I am most eager to listen to it!
Dave, what statement are you referring to?
Police ARE citizens. To my knowledge they are also civilians. Military personnel are not civilians, but are citizens. Police have no special rights.
back to your comment; what data are you looking for?
“As a former officer, I have no special privilege .
But I do believe that the vast majority of officers felt an obligation to step up and protect the people.”
Don’t mean to pick a fight but WHO appointed YOU to protect me?
Police officers dont join to get a cut of the graft folks! they are young idealistic persons who want to help people.
Now if they become embittered and self serving after a few years of of being mistreated by the public, well that can happen.
Most officers retain the wanting to help part of their idealism. Course that means being tough on the not so nice people.
When I was a sworn officer, i was appointed by the COP, with the consent of the City Council to serve and protect the jurisdiction that employed me.
It certainly wasnt my expanded ego!
From my experience, interactions with police simply depends on attitude… be nice, and the officers are usually nice back, even in somewhat severe situations. However, for some reason, I get the impression that some rarely come to work in a good mood; and they permeate authority and fear rather than harmony with the public. The few times I asked for directions to big city cops in the NE, I quickly learned not to.
If you submit and show your obedience to the thug with a badge, they might not commit felony assault against you.
If you dont submit, YOU are committing a misdemeanor. You have recourse after the fact, but not to resist an officer.
And if you are acting like a thug, you probably will be treated as one
Dave, not cowering on the ground in fear because a thug is in the vicinity is not the same as resisting arrest and thus not a crime.
Here’s some data for you. This study by the Cato Institute seems to show that police officers commit violent crimes at a rate at least no lower than the general population. In fact, when it comes to sexual assault, their rate is more than twice as high.
i certainly will agree that cops have crime rates as high as the rest of the people. They are human.
We are either equal or we are not. That is, in the end, the only question.
Giving “special” gun rights to cops and ex-cops in just a cynical form of bribery, so that they will be good robots and follow orders. When cops complain that their rights are being infringed, the politicians respond by giving them their rights back and using the police to take away ours.
Cops are for sale, and cheaply at that, when they can be bribed by “giving” them their own Constitutional rights and telling them to shut up, but that’s what just happened in NY.
The least that the NYPD can do is to post a price list so we can all have an equal chance to buy a cop. Serpico would agree.
I have yet to meet a cop in their 40’s who didn’t know the exact number of DAYS before they retired. Pension-obsessed is an understatement. I certainly don’t dislike cops, but have no desire to rely on them to protect me.
think about it! This group of folks is probably the cleanest , most law abiding group of citizens to be found. I assume this because you have to behave yourself to be allowed weapons.
If you as a group are so hard on cops doing their job by the book, then you can imagine the reaction of the less savory population to a police officer doing the same job by the book with them.
No cop says you can rely on him to protect the public, you are on your own, he just comes later and cleans up the mess.
If you are reasonable and not overreacting, there is a good chance he will write that report in a manner that casts you in as favorable light as his bosses will let him.
Course if you arent discrete and reasonable…..
You can shove your report right up your a$$.
Animal Farm – George Orwel: “all animals are equal, but some are more equal that others.”
What about the whole equal protection under the law idea??
See the George Orwell “Animal Farm” quote above.
I don’t like the SAFE act or anything remotely similar. That said, if you are going to make an argument for special privs for cops while on duty, that is one thing. But off duty or ex cops, they should follow the same laws as the rest.
Don’t like it? Then don’t make stupid restrictive laws.
There’s no argument for special privileges on duty either. Regular citizens don’t have radios to call thousands of their similarly armed buddies to come help them, shoving traffic out of the way as they do so. Why should they have special privileges as to what they carry on top of that? If it’s too dangerous for us, it’s too dangerous for them. If it’s okay for them, it’s okay for us.
The safe act is ridiculous at its core, and will do nothing to help anyone. that being said, very rarely do police have thousands of people to call on for back up, most police departments and sheriffs departments have fewer than 100 sworn officers. Many rural areas have 20 or less, and sometimes crime does come knocking at our door because everybody knows where the local cop lives. I would be truly surprised if anyone can show that retired cops are any more or less violent than the societal norm, as it is. most feel compelled to act in times of need as well. i think you should keep your arguments with the law at the political level and not the professional level.
Even those rural cops have it better than regular citizens. I can’t turn head and be connected to a dispatcher who will send me backup. That ability just by itself is a “special privilege” they . My car doesn’t have a shotgun mount between the front seats, or more and more these days, an AR mount. And home invasions happen to people from all walks of life.
and what good is a dispatcher going to do if there is no one to send. i think your confusing ny city with ny state. the majority of police in the state are against this safe act, and this isnt the 1960’s and 1970’s dirty harry era. good luck to you.
Jesus, what a whiner.
You also aren’t asked to wade into a fight between gangs at 2AM in a dark alley outside a bar.
I think everyone should be exempted from the ridiculous safe act (not just cops) but you sound like someone who’s just jealous they don’t get to have flashing lights on his car.
Last time I checked, there has never been conscription into any police force. They know what they’re signing up for.
And that 2:00 am fight is exactly the kind of situation where a cop would get to call his buddies and wait until they had sufficient force before moving in.
I’m fine without the lights, thank you very much.
These carve-outs are quite ironic, considering cops commit crimes at a rate higher than the general public, and at a rate MUCH higher than CCW holders.
SAFE act does a good DIVIDE AND CONQUER 🙁
its important to remember that it was not the cops that asked for this law, in fact, most sheriffs in the state are standing against it and for the rights of the citizens of the state. this law was pushed forth by politicians with an agenda, and is being challenged in the courts. by some of the commentary, it seems that people are straying from the root of the problem. if we are not united in the fight against this, it will be lost. stay focused.
I’m not comfortable with a blanket assertion that LEOs are more likely to commit a gun crime than the general populace without some data backing it up. Absent any data, I call BS on the assertion that the police are more likely to commit a firearms related crime.
I suspect it’s a case of dog-bites-man is not a story, but man-bites-dog is a story. There are certainly people who become police officers because they enjoy the power. In the military, I served with officers and NCOs who were career military for similar reasons. But everyone knew who those guys were, and most of us despised them. The media doesn’t like the military, and they don’t seem to like cops either. I’m never surprised to see them go out of their way to paint either in a bad light.
I think there is an argument to be made that there are civil liberties issues with exempting favored classes from laws. In the case of gun control laws, those favored classes are politicians and police. Let’s have that discussion, rather than make unsupported blanket assertions.
We can’t provide figures because the FBI doesn’t publish them.
I wonder why.
Have a meeting with the highest ranking traffic officer and try not to explode when he relays, after ten minutes of circle talk, he’s not enforcing the new city ordinance four entities spent the last 6 months working on.
They are useless in helping citizens improving their community.
Maybe because their job is, and should be, fighting crime. Attempts to get police to “improve the community” through ordinances are a big part of the problem with the increasing nanny state.
Regarding figures – remember who’s in charge of “officially” determining if a cop commits a crime and what the punishment is for that crime. That’s right, the police. I can’t imagine why they almost always find that “the officer did nothing wrong” and that the worst punishment is an unpaid vacation.
We need non-government investigators / tribunals looking into the crimes of police officers, not their cop buddies who will let them off the hook time after time.
Heh. Lotta cop-bashers on here. Must’ve had their egos bruised by the big bad police-man sometime in their lives. What, Joe Friday steal your girlfriend or something?
This SAFE Act or whatever is BS, plain and simple. In some places, like New York, the cops choose to be adversarial with everyone, and they welcome these carveouts or whatever you call them. In the rest of the country, that’s not how it works. The cops are gun owners and 2d-Amendment supporters just like everyone else. If you east-coasters would get out of your liberal bubble-zone once in a while, you’d figure that out. Jeez.
There’s a lot of bootlickers on here thinking that if they suck up to government thugs enough, they’ll go easy on them in the future. Cops are enforcers for corrupt politicians – no more, no less. They are literally no different from thugs working for a drug lord.
You also completely ignored my point about how it’s insane for the police to get to control if a cop gets charged with a crime.
Was trailer camping a month ago when at 5:30 in the morning I got up went outside to make coffee. Propane tank valve was stuck and had a leak. So I took the tank 100 yards away in a field and drained it. Stood by and made sure no one came hiking or jogging came across it. Placed it in a bush for the last bit to escape. One hour later a park police walked up and casually asked if I saw a guy walk with a propane tank. I said no I haven’t seen anyone walking with a tank but I’m the guy your looking for. Explained what happen then IT happen. Do you have identification and is there anything I should know about? I was confused with the question, then realized he was checking for warrants. Produced my license was cleared and then told I did every thing right BUT should have called someone including 911. Think about it, 5:30 in the am, after Boston, 911 call confusion, propane tank, fire trucks in a campground, evacuating the area, helo’s overhead, SWAT team deployed. And stated that he could write a a violation…Really? Defused it by saying I accepted his counsel and next time I would get everyone involved.
Bingo…business is slow, you cannot possible handle situation yourself and to justify our existence, impose regulation, treaten summons, all to handle a simple problem as a propane leak. Also use any excuse to check anyone for warrants. Trolling law abiding citizens for revenue.
Uh Tote, you’re right, I didn’t address it. So I will now:
Wrong! Everywhere I’m familiar with, the DA, county attorney, or state AG charge the cops. Most are more than happy to do so. Of course, that doesn’t fit the narrative.
So, I’m “wrong” that it’s Internal Affairs (part of the police) that investigate crimes committed by officers and get to decide punishments?
I went to school in a small rural Midwest township, and the two biggest
bullies in school, in my class, became police officers in our township.
They became the “us” and everyone not a cop, was “them.” The two who
were known bullies, from K-12, were granted the police power to kill us.
It took 10 years, and several reprimands for excessive force before both
of them were relieved of their badges. This was before police dash-cams.
At our last HS reunion, I heard one of them is serving 10-20, convicted
of aggravated assault with a gun. Go figure?
The real story is who’s the nepolistic jackass that hired them.
Shame on them. Did that change your opinion on an entire group of people, based on 2 morons?
No, my opinion of LEO’s was changed over 20 years ago when I was stopped for going 46mph on a road posted as 45mph. When I asked him how he was going to justify this stop before a judge; because I was going to challenge their premise for stopping me in the first place, he replied, “Do you think a speeding ticket is all we can do TO you!?” Ya. my taxes($25,000 alone, every quarter) are paying the salary of a man that would use his badge, uniform, and gun as a threat to misuse his police powers to abuse my civil rights, in any way he saw fit. I also used to shoot at a range that our local deputy sheriffs used, and was shocked to hear them all talk in terms of “us” and “them,” the “us” being them, and the “them” being us. With this sort of mind set, in their eyes, we are all of us, just potential criminals. When we are all considered guilty until THEY determined our innocence, then we are all just expendable second class citizens to them.
And the police wonder why the public in general has such a low opinion or trust of LEO’s. People like the 2 school bullies and the deputy that stopped me never should have been granted the power to carry a gun, let alone become a police officer. To protect and serve? Really? To protect and serve…what, the public, or the system that makes them more equal than us? As with any profession, their are bad eggs. The difference being, a bad plumber won’t threaten to mess up your day, or your life, just because he thinks he can.
Jeez, sounds like Podunk County USA. Sorry, Out. Still a few idiots out there witbout a clue about what a cop is supposed to be. All the “real cops” I know don’t have time for grab-ass high-school BS like you described. They also don’t tolerate morons behind the badge. Trouble is, no one knows about all that. They think the cops just look out for each other and “f” anyone else.
Maybe a few years ago that would have been true. Nowadays, they almost compete to see who’s going to turn in any wrong-doing first. There is NO loyalty. Part of it is the current “me-first” generation, part because they’ve been told that keeping quiet about stuff is as bad as being part of it. Hell, some of them spend more time going after their coworkers than they do going after crooks. Things have changed, and although most people don’t see it yet because of the media and threads like this that perpetrate the old stereotypes, but it’s happening and it won’t be long before it’s everywhere. Is it bad or good? Who knows, maybe both.
Us vs. them comes from the J-O-B. They’re so used to dealing with criminals, assholes, & pricks they forget how to act around normal people. Combine that with the tax collector badge it’s no wonder THEM really don’t want to associate with the blue crew.
Meanwhile I’ll smile, wave, but in the back of my mind know if they were on fire, I wouldn’t bother to piss on them.
No kidding. Cops are no different than any other government employee. Pension obsessed, the whole bunch of them. I don’t need any of them. Thanks, but no thanks. Shove your armored vehicles up your a$$.
why the hell do ex cops deserve ANYTHING extra?
you’re no longer a cop, therefore, you don’t “need” more than the rest of us. you dont walk the beats to arrest people, you’re a civilain. i dont care what you did in your now ended career.
cops dont deserve more either, because its all just bullshit anyways, but that’s a different matter.
gee, xer, envy much?
Gee, Gerry, entitlement much?
Nah, just tired of silly comments about “entitlements.” Maybe that’s how y’all do business back east, but it doesn’t work that way where I’m from. Nobody gets a free ride. They don’t give free CC permits to the cops, and they have to qualify yearly to get one, where anyone else qualifies every 5. So who’s entitled?
How many days until you retire Gerry?
Lets see…i had a national security clearance in the Mil rated Top Secret,10 years as a Peace Officer in NYS,passed no less than 10 drug tests in the last 3 years,8 physicals successsfully,hold a Haz Mat lic(BG check by TSA),CDL A,and i NJ icant get a CCW.Bye,bye to the NE.
I didn’t see any mention of campaign contributions or great personal wealth. No wonder you’re not worthy.
Ralph, you’re rapidly turning into my favorite cynical commentator.
Same deal — despite being vetted multiple times by Secret Service and FBI for my job, can’t get CCW.
Ralph is way better than me. He’s my cynical role model.
I think an argument could be made for letting retired LEOs have weapons considered illegal under the SAFE act IF they were part of a reserve force like the Army reserve that trained regularly, were part of a command structure and could be called upon to provide policing duties in state or local emergencies. Since that is NOT the case, there is no reason that retired LEOs should get special privileges anymore than retired firearms instructors or firemen.
If retired LEOs are at risk for targeting by criminals, then they can show cause as to why they need a carry license just like anyone else in NYS who is in a risky profession—and be subject to the same arbitrary adjudication by a judge, sheriff or police chief. They should be restricted to carrying 7 rounds in the magazine and be required to register their rifles with black plastic on them.
That would be the job of the civilian militia. The powers that were made sure to denigrate them into submission during the 80’s.
Actually, I have a better idea that’s a win-win. If police officers would be willing to train and volunteer to protect schools for five or so years after they retire, I’d be willing to let them have any weapons they wanted with no restrictions on how many rounds they can have in their magazines. And they could keep this right in perpetuity.
Interesting, the progressive part of me says that’s a great idea.
Hey they are RETIRED meaning older meaning they dont have to qualify yearly. Remember the photo of the female swat officer in a drill with the mag in backwards? Most cops never have to draw their gun. Do I think they should have to follow the safe act? NO but I dont think anyone else should either. It protects NO ONE and effects almost EVERYONE’s ability to defend themselves. As to special training Ill bet there are 300-500,000 veterans in NY they get special training and many way more real world experiance what about them? Actually I am against creating different classes of citizens we ALL have rights or none of us do. The SCOTUS decision referred to arms in common usage . Small arms used by police are in common usage.
The law is for RETIRED cops, not “ex-cops”, which could mean people who resigned or were fired. There is a huge difference. Then the writer says he has no evidence. He didn’t need to say anything more. End of story. But just for the record, cops are no more apt to commit crimes; it’s just that when they do it’s big news. It sells newspapers so it’s publicized more. Retired cops DO need exemption from the NYSafe Act, which is ridiculous on it’s face. Why, because retired cops frequently encounter people that they’ve put in jail, and alot of them want some payback. Being on the retired list doesn’t mean you’re out of danger. Additionally, retired cops are already trained and know the law, so if something very bad happens, they are in a position to take immediate action. As the saying goes, “when every second counts, the police are only minutes away”. As I said, I believe the law is stupid and unconstitutional. I don’t think there should be two (or three) classes of citizens. We should all be able to own (mis-named) assault rifles and hi-cap magazines. Deal with the criminals and nuts; don’t harass honest citizens!
Why, because retired cops frequently encounter people that they’ve put in jail, and alot of them want some payback.
If you don’t want people coming after you for payback, maybe you shouldn’t have been a jerk in the first place? Common sense strikes again!
Also, why is the life of some government thug worth more than an average person’s life? Unlike the thug, those “peasants” actually did something productive for society instead of stealing money from others to fill their bank accounts.
AND your productive something was…?
We never had ‘police force’ in this country, until corporatist assholes took over; get hip to history: Rules for Thee, None for Me!
Where Do Cops Come From?
by Eric Peters
May 24, 2013
Another liberal re-write of history. Believe what you want, if it helps you sleep at night.
I live in a Steel town, it used to be a cotton mill town as well. There is an entire “mill village” here every worker house was built the same with one “straw boss” house per block. In the center of 16 blocks were the company stores and the “detention house” (corporate jail). On the hill top overlooking the mill village was the row of real bosses mansions. You can disbelieve this history if you want to, but I live next door to it. I talked with the old men as a boy about the conditions. (The entire village is still here and though changed some, you can see it all today.) They told of a very different America, an America of corporate slaves,where workers would owe the company more at the end of the week than they made on paychecks. (This attitude against paper “checks” lasted into the 1960’s, men here refused to be paid in paper and were paid in silver dollars each week at the steel mill.) Many battles were fought at the cotton mill and the steel mill with workers fighting pinkertons. Usually when someones 10 year old was forced into dangerous work to pay the family “debt”. You dishonor the memory of these people who were treated like beaten slaves right here in America Sir, and I take issue with you.
My grandfather was a coal miner in West Virginia. Company stores and company houses and company money were absolute truth, not a liberal rewrite. The company paid by the ton and their ton was 2200 pounds. The miners were charged for their tools and the carbide for their helmet lights.
Put the numbers against ccw/chl crime rates. Seems someone posted here on the topic.
What’s interesting and never mentioned about law enforcement is they have no “duty to act” This has been proven by case law several times in recent years. This means if the proverbial bad guys kicks your door in and attempts to harm you, and you call the law and they for some reason take 45 minutes to show, you have no legal recourse because they took their sweet time getting there. Why, because they have no mandate to protect the individual. The firearms they carry are not for “our” protection, it is for the leo’s self protection. If you happen to be in the area at the time, well, you get defacto protection. That “serve and protect” slogan on the side of the car is just feel good words for the general public.
They deserve no special treatment, no special rights. I served with distinction in the Marine Corps, carried hundreds of rounds in combat, used 30rd magazines on a daily basis and am still a productive member of society after having retired from my Corps, yet I can’t be trusted with 30 rds or even 10 rds in my magazines . I hazard to guess that the firearms training in the military is far and away superior to any that can be had in a law enforcement agency. To illustrate the point, I can recall no one ever having shot their own car in a training evolution, unlike one of the local cops in this area. The safe act is a sham, a direct assualt on our constitution and RIGHTS.
That all being said, at least in this area, the leo’s are generally a nice group of people. They do deserve a certain degree of respect, but only so far as to the degree they show. I subscribe to the ” be nice to them, and they will be nice to you.” It does work. I only demand one thing from the leo’s, know your job better than I do.
wow… i guess after reading this, that all cops are bad just like all gun owners are bad right, isn’t that what the government is saying. c’mon people focus on what is really at hand here. I bet that most cops are gun owners, collectors, concealed carry permit holders, and fully support the right for law abiding citizens to own, possess, and carry guns. with regard to exemptions, there are certainly situations that police are involved in that citizens are not, and there should be enhancements to allow for protecting themselves and their families. the adversarial nature of the job is the cause of that, and not all of them are aholes to cause people to attack them, and their families. any person should have the right to defend themselves and their families with the best tools available, but to single out a class of people is childish.
” I bet that most cops are gun owners, collectors, concealed carry permit holders, and fully support the right for law abiding citizens to own, possess, and carry guns”.
Could be….but show me a patrolman, SGT or detective STAND up and publicly tell the elected rights stealers to go f themselves or go on strike for the people. Power of the purse does the stealers bidding.
Anybody counting on a government employee to not follow orders when the SHTF is deluding themselves.
i think what you will see is the patrolman,sgt. or detective, at least im my part of the country tell you what the law is and to take care of the problem unless your being an ass clown to them or someone elso causing them to have to follow the rule of law. remember the law allows for discretion as part of the job.
I work with officers from multiple law enforcement agencies as part of my job. Most of who are great guys that I’m proud to call friends. Just like individuals in the military, there’s some animosity towards the civilian population. I realize that police officers are civilians, but dealing with criminals day in and day out gives them a stereotypical view of the public. I am not attempting to justify this attitude or behavior, just that I understand to a degree how it happens. “LEO’s” should not have any special rights or concessions, they shouldn’t need them. No American citizen should. One of my favorite quotes I read here today was, “Shall not be infringed is not a question”. We as Americans require the tools necessary to prevent tyranny by our government. “Gun control” does not work, unless you’re talking about keeping rounds on target.
US Constitution, Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 8:
“No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States…”
I take this to mean that all laws apply to all citizens equally. No special treatment because you have a certain job, title, etc. Therein is the underlying problem…many people genuinely feel that certain parts of the population should be exempt from some laws.
See a lot of badge lickers here saying the
usual silliness….as with many folks
I know that nonsense ends after a few
encounters with “officer friendly”
(who NEVER existed). The SAFE act is
an insult to American citizens
on it s face with that little added
insult that the badged thugs get a pass,
to let us serfs know our place. LEO’s are
not “civilians” after all you know.