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Neal (the slick looking guy in the videos and inventor of the NSN) shot me this video late last night. You may remember the “No Stock Needed” device that we talked about on Sunday, and it caused a bit of a stir in the comments with a large number of you guys doubting how comfortable it would be to have an SBR recoiling against your jaw. Well, to combat the negative Nancies in the crowd, he grabbed a bunch of his friends and let them give it a try, recording the results along the way. The results in the video are very positive, but we’ve got a bit of a “trust but verify” attitude here at TTAG. And, to that end, he already has one in the mail destined for my doorstep. We’ll let you know how well it works when it gets here. Also, if you’ve got a pistol AR-15 and live near San Antonio, drop me a line in the comments — I may need some help on this one.

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    • same thing as ruling the ssar-15 stock a full auto and making it illegal? if so, the ATF is really really really really really really really slow these days.

  1. OK, that video made me interested. Looked like those people were shooting well, and having fun doing it.

    It was fun to watch, and the egg thing was eggs-celent.


  2. For shooters like me (800+ rounds a month) I’d be concerned with jaw, neck, and tooth issues in the long term. The 5.56/.223 may not have much recoil in the AR platform, but repeat it over and over and over…

    • +1. Look at the head movement. Gently pop yourself on the chin a thousand times, enough to rock your head about the same amount and you will get the idea.

    • I wouldn’t put 800+ rounds/month all through one of these, but adding it to the rotation for a hundred or so rounds shouldn’t amount to much, if any problems.

  3. Tagged for interest in the TTAG review. I don’t readily trust the opinion of friends and family on things like this, but it did look fun and it is VERY outside the box. Hope it works out well when Nick gets a hold of it.

  4. Ill give the kid positive credit for trying to present the invention in a positive light.

    As far as practical use is concerned I cannot help but be much less optimistic about matters. This invention appears to be an answer to a question no one asked. Places where SBR’s are illegal like Illinois, CA,NJ, and so on will have zero hesitation outlawing these “non-stocks” also,assuming the ATF doesn’t beat them to the punch. So avoiding a tax stamp , at best, is only a short term benefit until the invention gets more notoriety among the disarmament lobby.

    For general concealed carry, a standard Glock 17 beats that “non-stock” AR pistol hands down for practical use.
    For home defense, a 12 gauge or 30-30 are not only more affordable but much less likely to upset a gun-ignorant Grand Jury.
    For toy value its cool,but if toy value is the goal then a $200 tax stamp isn’t impractical.

    Nothing wrong with new innovations, but they have to pass real world practicality first. An ordinary AR pistol with a sling seems just as effective as this weapon is. Heck, my Warsaw stock AKM may as well not have a stock considering how short it is, and I shoot it just fine with assistance of the sling.

    • the atf is slow to ruling stuff illegal these days. look at how long the ssar-15 has been on the market unmolested by the atf.

  5. The biggest problem with it is that its for an AR pistol, which in my experience are always a lot more finicky and are a lot less trustworthy than a full size AR. Not only that, but you’re losing a lot of energy out of a barrel that small, and 5.56 isn’t exactally known for its power in the first place.

    If you need a rifle, bring a rifle. If its too big, carry a pistol… I’m not going to buy one of these, because I have a yougo under folder for a trunk gun, and I trust that a lot more than something so expensive, finicky, and tacticool.

    The realist in me sees AR pistols as nothing more than a waste of money. I think they’re a novelty, a toy. And throwing another $250 onto a waste of money just makes no sense for me.

    • t, but you’re losing a lot of energy out of a barrel that small, and 5.56 isn’t exactally known for its power in the first place.
      That is not as bad as most people think.

      Out of a 16″ barrel, a 55gr Sierra HPBT will give 3076 FPS/1156 ft/lbs with 26.3gr of Hodgon H335. Out of a 9″ barrel it will give 2568 FPS/805 ft/lbs.

  6. I applaud the young man’s independent spirit, his desire to make something from nothing to support himself via his own toil and creativity; this alone makes him a special US Citizen and he has my support in his endeavors, I wish him much future success.

    This product is the net result of Americans surrendering their rights to the ATF. The regulations that gave rise to this invention exist on the premise that Law Abiding Citizens Cannot Be Trusted and if Allowed to place a stock on a handgun they will instantly turn into raving lunatics who will rob banks and shoot up theaters. Only the power elite have the freedom to use such horrible devices, against the Citizenry.
    As we all know there is always a class of resident, besides the power elite, that is completely free to use any device they can acquire for nefarious ends, the Criminal Class, over and over again these PPL wield cut down rifles, shotguns in crimes but if you read the statistics they are rarely prosecuted for firearm crimes.

  7. I don’t own and SBR sooooo.
    I watched his video when my two year old started screaming NOM NOM NOM!!
    It will be an interesting test to be sure. If we have more than one TTAG’er also giving thoughts after using it that would be totally awesome.

  8. For how far back the buffer tube goes, wouldn’t it just be about the same amount of effort to place it against your shoulder?

    I’d love TTAG to compare this to a single point sling & VFG (or AVG).

  9. I’ve shot a Rock River 10.5″ pistol this way for years. I can easily it a 6″ plate at 50 -75 yds with it. I know that doesn’t sound all that great, but remember it’s a pistol, not a rifle. It beats any “standard” semi-auto (e.g. Glock 17, SIG P226, etc.) at that distance for both accuracy and power.

    I like light bullets out of a short barrel and am driving 50 grain Hornady V-Max at 2675 – 2700 fps from a 10.5″ barrel. Thats 805 ft-lbs at the muzzle and 2400 fps with 600 ft ft/lbs at 100 yds.

    True, it will never be as accurate as a real SBR, but a lot of states make it hard, if not impossible to get an SBR. A 10.5 – 11″ pistol with a decent buffer tube face rest (foam padding helps) it a close second if you limit yourself to 150 yds. Adding a good muzzle break (I like the battlecomp) really improves the rapid fire capability of the set up.

  10. Neal is a personal friend and does it right. This guy is top-notch, and has extensive experience doing what he does. I have seen this device in its early stages and can attest to the amount of work that went into it. This is a precisely designed part and does what it is supposed to do. For all the naysayers, I say you need to spend some more time getting in touch with what really happens to the body under any recoil forces. Armchair GI Joes are always unimpressed by innovation. The same guys bashing this product are the same guys who still believe that the M1 was the greatest battle rifle and the 9mm is ‘anemic’. Times change, so does technology. I say get a smart phone, a car that gets more than 15mpg and a gun that is not stuck in the last century.

    • You might want to consider that you’re not talking to a lot of armchair GI Joes like yourself…BTW.

      Oh and I say, don’t come here and try to help push your buddies product by trying to insult people.

  11. Notice how he talks about her “length of pull issue” with the stock fully collapsed when it’s visibly TOO SHORT for her. Scripted. Notice how the young guy looks like his brother. Ok, so he knows everyone and it shows. They are trying hard to give him the answers this video was made to promote.

    Notice how two people say the recoil to the shoulder was worse than to her face…come on. Really? Scripted. What targets where people shooting at 200 yards? Never showed that (ok they did as fast as the eye could blink) or the hits.

    Wow, Karen just so happens to have TMJ?? What a coinkidink! Also, sorry, but the whole egg thing at the end…cheesy and has absolutely no bearing on how much force is transferred to the face. One can easily hold the egg in place that way while taking the recoil in the arms, without breaking the egg.

    I was more convinced to try the product before this video, to be honest. I want to try and believe in the product but now I feel like Neal is trying to sell waaaay too hard.

    Even if the experience is as good as he states, the product is over priced. He needs to address that, before anything else.

    • Thanks for the response. Hope I can clear up some things.

      Nothing was scripted. Nobody received any free gear or pay or anything, at all, for that matter. They didn’t have to say anything positive, but they freely did. I didn’t have to cut any bad feedback from the video. I called those five people at 9PM Sunday night after seeing the negative responses to the first video. The only person related to me is Karen, and that’s not by blood. I didn’t know that Karen had TMJ before yesterday, and the video is presented chronologically from 10AM-12:45 yesterday morning, so when you see me interview her, it’s right after we did the 200yd shooting and discussed the gun blogs. The target was a 12×24″ steel plate, and you can hear the “ding” if your sound is up enough.

      My first video was not received well. I had a list of things I wanted to showcase after seeing people’s reactions, and this is how it came out. I hope you give the NSN another chance, and I understand if you’re not willing to.

      However, I’m trying to have integrity with everything I do with my company. Making a fake testimonial video is not something that appeals to me, and I think it would do greater harm than anything else. What’s filmed is what happened. The egg thing was a “let’s see if it works” gag at the end of the day, and I was nervous about it breaking, even though I’ve tested the product extensively. I’m happy it turned out like it did.

      I’m looking forward to hearing what Nick Leghorn and other have to say, and I hope you’ll read their responses, as well.


      • Sorry if I came across as too negative…and again, I commend you for coming up with a potentially good product idea…and because I’m an AR pistol owner (who will never see an SBR) in CA, I’m interested!

        Get that product to a couple, non-biased, third parties like TTAG and let them do their own reviews before you post any more (just my suggestion).

        That video just comes across to me as cheesily scripted…whether you scripted it or not. The egg thing, too much. 😉

        Again, all of this is moot for me with that $250 price tag. Just too high, IMO. $100? Sure I’ll buy one and try it. $150? I don’t know…maybe…IF other sites start raving about it via their own reviews. For $250?? NO (even with rave reviews).

  12. Wow, I read a few more posts here…have some of you knocking AR pistols ever even shot one? I doubt it. For those that have, that are still knocking it, did you try a few times to get comfortable/acquainted with the platform? I also doubt it.

    I was wondering the same things until I bought mine and found it to be 100% reliable after a thousand rounds (not one misfeed/jam, etc), and found that it has the ability to take out the center of my targets reliably and accurately (as accurately as one would hope/expect such a weapon to be). I think it’s a great alternative to a 16″ AR rifle (smallest legal length in CA) for CQB situations.

    I can guarantee you – face the business end of my AR pistol at >100 yards and you won’t be thinking it’s a toy. At >50 yards, I’m gotten down right lethal with it. It has it’s purpose IMO. Keep it focused on it’s limited applications, and it’s a great addition to the collection.

    • Hi. One of the shooters in the video has TMJ, and it didn’t bother her. See 7:59. I know she doesn’t represent every person with TMJ, but for what it’s worth, it was nice to have somebody with TMJ say how it feels to shoot with the NSN.

  13. I definitely like the idea. But, if I understand the tax stamp process/regs correctly, a $250 price tag takes it right out of SBR-legal markets. Cheaper to get the tax stamp and have a real stock. Really only worthwhile if I were in a state where it’s AR pistol or nothing. Maybe a $100 price would still make it worth it for those who could get an SBR, but would rather avoid the hassle and government interaction.

  14. This actually makes me interested in getting one of those odd AR-Pistols, I hhhaven’t cared until this point, they look odd but this just makes sense, I’d like to try one before dropping 250 though, maybe if he could get them into Glock dealers for the “2 Shot program” type thing.


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