TTAG reader Karlan in Austin, TX writes:
Some friends and I went to the free MACC [Mexican American Cultural Center] show last night. I wasn’t sure of my right to carry; it was city property, but they were serving liquor. So I decided to “play it safe” and leave my gun home. After the show ended I separated from my friends to grab a bus home (approx 11:40 pm). While walking on the lakefront path between MACC and Congress Street I see two individuals sitting to the side. Two other people had just walked past them. They were waiting for me, alone . . .
One crosses into the path like he is holding a phone conversation, I immediately know something fishy is up and walk on the hill on the path. He lunges for me grabbing my jacket and simultaneously pulls out a knife which he has cocked back. Somewhat nicely asking: “Just give me your wallet bro.”
I was able to free his hand and I booked it. While never good in sports I was confident in my ability to out run any non-Kenyan; I remember thinking this consciously. I called 911.
No less than ten perhaps as many as 15 officer responded, including the Police Chief of Austin, Art Acevedo. He was nice enough despite what many say.
After the paperwork was done, I needed to get my thoughts down. I typed the following on a mobile device rather quickly, but just wanted to raise some questions/comments:
– Austin public transportation sucks, it is poorly designed, and does not run late enough. Forcing me to walk 20 mins to catch a bus because connecting bus wouldn’t make it in time.
– 6th St/downtown violence is nothing new and must be addressed.
– I should have been carrying.
– Know you rights on city property.
– I was able to get away, should I engage if I could (I felt stupid turning my back and running)
– Note attackers features, this is hard to do in these situations if you’re focused on a knife; I was lacking in my description.
– What do you do if you’re not driving, not drinking, want to socialize, but can’t carry in bars? Give up your freedom?
– People with 0% BAC should be able to carry in bars IMHO
They didn’t find them BTW :/ I will never give up my right to walk on a sketchy bike trail after dark in any country. Next time I go out I will be carrying, even if it means I won’t be drinking. Drinking can be bad for your health.
Glad you didn’t get hurt. Yeah, my position on Acevedo is that Austin could do far worse for a Chief of Police. He seems very available. I mean, PR-conscious.
As an Austinite I can tell you Acevedo is an absolutely despicable police chief. He does nothing to curtail the rampant police abuse against the homeless, and his DWI cops are out of control (google Antonio Beuhler).
Instead of disciplining, Aceveco rewarded DWI thug Oborski, who lied on his police report and pressed false charges against Beuhler.
He does a great job putting on a face. Oh BTW, he’s an ex LA cop. LA thugs are in close competition with NYPD for the worst cops in the nation.
BAN KNIVES!
but in all seriousness.. it’s always that one time when you’re less than prepared that something actually goes wrong.
if a gun isn’t an option, bring a knife.
This was my first question–where was your knife? There is nothing worse than getting into a knife fight–everyone gets cut–but most thugs just want to intimidate, not fight. That’s why most DGUs are never recorded or reported–the BG sees the gun and backs off, no shots are fired.
While it can be agreed that ANY weapon is better than no weapon, you have no idea of the skill level or willingness of the attacker to cut you up, so closing in on a knife fight as opposed to running seems hazardous in the extreme. The basic rule of knife fighting has to be, even if you win you can still bleed out and die.
Which is not a bad mindset to have for a gunfight, too. It’s dangerous business engaging willing attackers in armed conflict.
You have to train FoF under pressure to learn to get a folder into play unless you carry fixed. Fixed is so much easier. So carry fixed. Or get a custom kydex sheath for your folder so you can carry it fixed.
You have to be willing to get cut, slashed shanked and stabbed if you engage with a knife.
The guy had a buddy. Thats two V one potentially.
Our good guy had no tools but speed and intelligence.
Beating feet was a great idea. Seriously. It neutralized the threat. Well done. After two years of aggressive FoF weekly knife training via AMOK! and other FoF combatives, I think his choice was great. Even if you pass behind his knife elbow and manage to work an elbow joint lock to break it, you still have a potential issue with perp 2/weapons/his attack freeing knife guy…etc. Plus your unarmed. All that sucks and is high risk unless you’re cornered, which he wasnt.
If he had his gun, he was free to engage lethal force to stop the threat under Title 2 Chapter 9 with the aggravated robbery.
Where our good guy was walking was in an area that I would want my Glock AIWB without question. He could have walked in a well lit city street one block higher at First Street instead of the semi-lit path next to the water. I know he has a right to walk anywhere and I respect that. Just do that path with a gun next time OK?
1 vs 2 if you have a knife and even just one of them have a knife is still pretty much suicide except in the movies.
I am a martial artist with over 10 years of experience and I’d still run if I could from those odds.
This is why I walk with a stick. Believe it or not, a 5 or 6 foot length of wax wood is a /much/ better defensive weapon than a knife in trained hands.
I used to live on Riverside in Austin and walked around at night by myself. I never worried about it because
A. I looked weird and self confident enough rocking the wizard staff that everyone left me the fuck alone
B. I could arguably do more damage with the staff at close range than I could with a firearm
I carried for a year after moving to Austin before I became a resident and my other state’s CCL was no longer valid, but honestly, carrying a pistol is not the be-all-end-all weapon some make it out to be. I like having the option and I’m definitely trained to deploy defensively, but don’t knock a good stick.
They say .380’s are better than a sharpened stick, but, are they really?
@Not So 1337, A 90gr pill traveling at ~1000fps > 2-3lb stick traveling at ~20fps, every time. The only factor in both cases is Shot/strike placement. The bigger advantage of the .380 is the bang that will shock said bad guy into the reality that you are not someone with whom to f’k.
Can’t block with a pistol and a moving head is a /really/ hard target.
I’m not saying a gun is a /bad/ weapon or I’d never have gotten a CCL nor would I be about to get another for TX. I am just saying that just about any weapon is only as good as the operator’s level of training.
If you can drive a car below .09 and operate an airplane below .05, I don’t see why you can’t carry and have a 12 or 20 oz over the course of a dinner out.
.04 for airplanes, man. Read your FAR AIM.
I said below .05 Nick… which is .04. 😉
.045 is above 0.04 and yet below 0.05
Some/most breathalyzers will read thousandths. I see where you were going with it, but that is an important hair that needs to/will be split.
I don’t disagree with your point though. Then again I don’t take as big an issue with alcohol/firearms mixing so much as stupidity/firearms. One can responsibly drink and operate a car, firearm, machinery, etc. The key is to not be a f*cktard and be a grownup and whatnot.
Stand by for flames.
As long as your company policy isn’t .000, as mine is. 12 hours bottle to throttle.
I echo the above. Know exactly your rights. Always carry a knife. Even when you are drunk.
Good on you for recognizing the threat early on though. Have your brain a head start.
“As long as your company policy isn’t .000, as mine is. 12 hours bottle to throttle.”
As is mine.
In many states you can, and (contrary to predictions by the antis) there is no epidemic of drunken gunfights in them.
I went to a Black Tie dinner last night. Had a few glasses of wine. and I had my glock 26 under my jacket. I don’t recall killing anyone. . . . and I was pretty close to some non-Shannon Watts VIPs. Surprisingly, they lived too.
A lot of things happen that people “don’t recall” after drinking wine–“You’ve had some of the best times you’ll never remember with me–Al Coholllll…” You might want to rephrase that, Dirk… 😉 (just pickin’ atcha, as they say hereabouts…)
I carried for a year in WV while going out to bars every weekend. It is one of the states that has no laws regarding concealed carry in bars or consumption of alcohol. Interestingly enough, people aren’t shooting each other left and right in bars with their CCWs there… hmmm.
In fact, this article is about how crime actually went down when Virginians were allowed to carry in bars:
http://www.wnd.com/2011/08/334117/
In WV, I never pulled in anger while out on the town, never even was tempted to, and the local cops knew I carried.
I usually hung out with one of them while I sobered up.
Not everyone is an idiot under the influence and I wanted to be armed for the time after I sobered up or before getting to the bar. ::shrug::
Now that I’m older, if I were in the same situation again I would probably not carry, but more because I’m lazier and more fatalistic now.
Still, people should have options.
It goes right back to criminals not following the law. Bad guys in bars will be carrying in bars without a CCL. If total douchebag biker guys with rap sheets 10 pages long can illegally carry in bars without randomly shooting people, then why can’t law abiding citizens in some states?
.08 for cars in Texas–or .0-anything if you are at all impaired by the alcohol. I see your point, but that argument probably won’t-well, fly, in Texas.
That’s a very common misperception. The law is that you may not operation a motor vehicle while intoxicated. Just because the “legal limit” is .08 BAC, that doesn’t mean that anything goes as long as you’re beneath that .08 threshold. What that threshold means, is that if your blood alcohol content is .08 or above, you are automatically assumed to be impaired by the alcohol. If you’re an inveterate drunk who can handle his booze, such that .08 doesn’t even affect you, it doesn’t matter. .08 and above: you’re guilty, regardless how you’ve actually operated the vehicle.
Similarly, your BAC could be any level below .08 and if your driving is alcohol impaired at that lower level, then you’re guilty of driving while intoxicated. The relevant issue is whether you’re driving while intoxicated. Below .08 BAC, the prosecution will have to prove you were impaired with other evidence; perhaps the field sobriety test or dash cam video of you operating the vehicle without normal use of your mental or physical faculties. The .08 BAC threshold just makes that assumption for you and there’s no longer anything to prove or debate. You’re guilty.
Wow.
Glad you made it away OK.
So you didn’t get a good description. So what.
Having your hide intact is was your primary goal and you achieved that goal.
just one knife?
What’s the point of this question? Is one knife not deadly or threatening enough?
– I should have been carrying.
I hate to quote JAMES F-ING YEAGER!, but one time he said “There is a difference between allowed, and able. You might not be allowed to carry, but you are able.”
Fodder for discussion.
– What do you do if you’re not driving, not drinking, want to socialize, but can’t carry in bars? Give up your freedom?
– People with 0% BAC should be able to carry in bars IMHO
Move to a more gun friendly state. 😛 Just busting your chops.
If it is concealed, they won’t know you have it. If they don’t know you have it, you won’t get in trouble. If you shouldn’t have it and end up using it to protect someone (including yourself), then you made an extremely good case for changing the rule. Always carry, whenever you can get away with it
“It’s a lot better to get caught with a gun than to be caught without one.”
If you’re going to an establishment where everyone is searched at the door then don’t carry.
Otherwise carry.
I pretty much never go anywhere I can’t carry because of these things, even if you’re safe at the destination, you have to get there & back.
Know the law and remember a taser or baton has better reach than most any knife.
I generally carry a 4-cell Maglite when I walk the dog at night. If anyone , including a cop, is looking–it’s a flashlight. But it’s long and heavy enough to make a respectable baton if need be. 6-cell is a bit heavy for me to swing with a lot of control.
I’ve never had a beef per se with anyone who doesn’t want to carry a weapon, be it a knife or sidearm, to protect themselves and others if necessary. That’s not the problem. What IS the problem, is people who tell others they can’t do so, particularly under color of law enforcement or political office. That’s just intolerable. You were lucky – this time. I’ve been there as well. Never forget that.
Tom
Glad you weren’t hurt.
Maybe this should be called “Could Have Been A Defensive Gun Use.”
I’m really glad that your alive and well!
Glad you were safe. I was about to post that weapons were not permitted on capmetro buses, but upon further investigation I found on their website:
“• Weapons (except licensed, concealed handguns), explosives, car batteries, flammable liquids and other hazardous materials are NOT permitted on the bus.”
+1 for Capmetro
Getting away and running was EXACTLY the right thing to do. Even had you been armed and shot the scumbag, you’d have to deal with the whole aftermath. I’m sure his mother would have been on every t.v. station and network by now, telling the world what a good boy he was, and how you executed her angel just as he was turning his life around. I am in favor of standing your ground, but sometimes a tactical “hauling a**” is the best solution.
Absolutely. Job 1 is self preservation. If getting the heck out of dodge is a viable option, then by all means.
Of course she would of. That career criminal piece of shit that drive through those people at SXSW a couple days ago, can anyone guess what his grandmother had to say about the murderer ?…well here it is, I’m sure you’ll be surprised,
“Rashad Charjuan Owens was raised in a Christian home in Killeen, enjoys producing music and had been trying to go forward in life to do good and provide for his toddler son, his grandmother told the American-Statesman on Thursday afternoon.
Reached at her home in South Carolina, his grandmother said she was grief-stricken and shocked to hear of the allegations against her grandson.
“I pray. I pray. I pray,” she said, declining to give her name as she did not yet know the full details of what happened overnight Thursday and was still processing the shock. “He is good. He is so good. …Whatever happened was out of his control, I am sure.”
Here is the link since I insist on citing sources: http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/grandmother-suspect-in-fatal-sxsw-crash-a-father-p/nfCLd/
I think I read this here?:
It’s better to avoid than it is to run, it’s better to run than it is to deescalate, it’s better to deescalate than it is to fight, and it’s better to fight than it is to die.
Running away isn’t foolish or cowardly, sometimes it is by far the best option, ethically… and legally. If retreat is an option, take it.
Thats Rory Miller
http://www.chirontraining.com/Site/Home.html
It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed.- From “Meditations on Violence”
I’m gonna +1 that. The object of a DGU is to save yourself in a tight spot. I know we had the big discussion about the mall-shooting situation, but in your case, you did just fine. Had a kind of similar, not quite as intense (to say the least), situation myself in Austin. I was accosted by a “youth” asking for money on my way into a store at night, he was kind of insistent when I said I didn’t have any to spare but I went on in. When I was ready to go, I was concerned that he was still there, I got my keys ready and went on out into the rainy night to my car. I am convinced that one reason I didn’t fumble my keys in my nervousness was the fact that I had a .38 derringer in my pocket and knew if it came to it I had an equalizer. (IIRC, that was before CCL; at any rate, I was illegal as hell but I didn’t care). Sure enough, he was there and coming my way, but I was able to unlock, enter, close up and start driving before he got there.
Seems like SXSW is about as crime filled at the NBA all start weekend. How many more news stories will the there be about the crimes at this event? YouTube is already full of video showing fights outside the festival events.
I am still waiting for the release of the compiled police report on “stalkers” being reported there. . . . . (crickets)
There is an argument to be made that even people drinking should be able to carry. It says “shall not be infringed” for a reason.
Like others have said, the important thing is you are safe and you got away. There was no need for you to engage the guy, you did the right thing in these particular circumstances. If the criminal had a gun, well, that’s a whole other subject for speculation but you did perfectly well here.
I wouldn’t say you were mugged…more like attempted mugging.
I must admit I envy your ability to outrun any non-Kenyan. I would probably have to headbutt him and kick him in the ribs…several times. Then again I usually don’t carry my wallet (no money on me=no money spent on stupid impulse).
“I would probably have to headbutt him and kick him in the ribs…several times. ”
And you’d very likely be dead right now.
Are you really suggesting willfully engaging an assailant armed with a knife while unarmed except as a very, very last resort?
Query: Have you ever done any force on force training, full contact, with a knife armed attacker while you are unarmed?
Plus, there were TWO assailants. What do you think his buddy is going to do while you are “headbutting” him? I’d say you’ve got about equal odds on getting shot, stabbed, the sh&t beat out of your or him running off leaving his buddy to fend for himself, and that’s from the buddy not the guy you are engaging.
Bingo…we have a winner here
Single attacker, maybe.
two attackers, giving them my VISA card since I don’t carry a wallet.
Besides there wouldn’t be one knife involved, I don’t carry heat but I carry something cold.
Haven’t done any force on force training, have been in a good deal of fights.
What kind of “fights?”
Honest to goodness street fights against an opponent armed with a knife?
Good thing nobody was hurt, maybe the reader could add in some form of unarmed combatives to be better prepared. Brazilian ju jitsu or mma or something similar would be good. Plus it’s a great way to to stay in shape.
“Some” won’t cut it. Some will likely get someone more hurt than if they try to run away. It’s called “brown belt syndrome.”
It generally takes YEARS to develop real martial arts skills useful in a street fight (no rules, no referee, etc), and even then, engaging multiple attackers with at least one knife is very, very iffy.
You want to do this? Go for it; your choice. But I think it’s questionable to advise others this way. Their choice to follow the advice, of course.
Reminds me of a youtube vid that I saw, one of those guys hawking his unarmed SD courses demonstrating how to take on multiple attackers. “And if one of them has a knife, I take it away from him…” Oh, just like that, huh? if only I had known it was so easy… sheesh…
Glad you got away safe and sound. Tis a shame you weren’t packin heat – It would have given the perps something to think about next time… or not. Lol. A friend of mine was recently mugged by three knife-wielding amateur robbers. I have no sympathy for such scum. Pity them I shall, sympathize I shall not.
Out of curiosity, anyone happen to know the law on carrying on public property which has been designated as alcohol friendly for an event?
The law is that you can’t carry in a business that makes 51% (or more) of its income from the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises. There are plenty of places that serve alcohol but _aren’t_ covered by that. Business that are covered have to post a sign to that effect.
Are you a TX resident and summarizing TX law specifically? If not, which state?
This topic is very State dependent.
For example, NC last year went to “you can carry where alcohol is served, but you can’t drink” in the law. Before that, it was “no carry where alcohol is served” with no mention of 51% or anything like that. If they serve it, you were out.
So, Sarah, there’s no uniform, nationwide rule on this and you did not specify which state you are asking about.
Yes to both. The subject of this post is something which happened in Texas.
Thanks…just wanted clarification so no one took that to be “all over.”
Yeah, I thought the laws might vary from state to state. I’m a resident of Arizona.
I don’t drink so the issue never really occurred to me before. I do, however, frequent fairs and functions which might be similar to the atmosphere Karlan described.
Would appreciate any light you could shed on the matter.
Glad you’re ok. I live in Austin and attend SXSW every year and there was something about this year that brought out an especially unpleasant ghetto thug element to the festival, primarily along 6th St. Others mentioned this to me as well without even prompting me for my opinion first, seems it’s a consensus. I carry a Spyderco folder almost all the time even when I don’t carry my firearm, especially at SXSW. I need to find a good OC spray that will fit in my pocket without being too obnoxious.
I fully agree with you, we should be able to carry in bars as long as we’re not drunking (that was not a typo) and acting responsibly. Maybe after we get open carry after this upcoming legislative session we’ll move onto changing the law so we can carry in bars.
Reading this post and the comments, I’ve just gotta say, first, it’s good no harm came to you! Guys, remember all that bit about not going to stupid places? After dark? Alone? Something wrong with going in the afternoon, with a few friends? Or am I being too severe here?
Strictly speaking, I don’t think you are being too severe, but…
What are we supposed to do, stop living our lives? The dude went to a music festival with some friends and tried to use public transportation to get home.
That hardly qualifies as “stupid” in the general sense. It’s not like he went to a crack house looking to score.
If we keep retreating, where do we end up? Surrounded and imprisoned. Eventually, everywhere will be a “stupid place” if the thugs take it over.
Go to libtard “festival”, in a libtard city, late at night, depending on marxist “transport” for your mobility. And this is not a recipe to meet stupid people in stupid places?
I get your point…especially about public transport, but don’t you think you are being a little harsh about going out for a night to listen to some music?
I guess the question is…where is the line of what defines “stupid?” I’m sure someone wanting to be critical could easily define my or your behavior as going to a “stupid place.”
It’s an ambiguous, subjective term at best, easily defined after the fact when someone gets attacked. Assaults like this can, and do, happen ANYWHERE….up to, and including home invasions.
Sitting at home, or asleep in the bed, going to be called being in a stupid place, too?
I never have liked crowds because I always feel like i couldn’t find a suitable exit if I had to bail. Kinda sucks sometimes because Iv missed a few things over the years I would have loved to seen in person. But as the world gets nuttier, Im thinking maybe it’s no so bad.
This may sound stupid but I actually carry two wallets, one my real wallet and the other what I call a “mug wallet.” The mug wallet I put one twenty dollar bill in and that’s it, and it’s in case I get mugged, I have a wallet to give the mugger.
Also, what good does calling the police do with a situation like this? I mean what’s the point? Unless your wallet was actually stolen or something, but otherwise, how does it help you?
Also, I agree that hauling ass is a good option. I agree that you have no “duty to retreat” but if you can run or shoot the perp, running simplifies things. Also if the perp pursues you and somehow cornered you, if there were any witnesses, they could say that you first ran away. You tried to de-escalate the situation.
I’ve thought of the two wallet thing as well, but, there’s a hitch.
I was looking at some violent crime reports recently, and I cannot remember if the following stat came from federal reports or my home state. But what I saw was a bit alarming.
The stat was a 50-50 chance of being killed or seriously injured in an armed street robbery even if you hand over the goods.
As I said, I don’t recall where I read it, or how broadly applicable it is, but it does give some food for thought. Handing over the second wallet MAY save you, or may not.
At the least, it could be a tactical move to buy time.
Some folks say don’t hand it, toss it to one side or the other of the perp and then take to your heels while he retrieves it.
Yes, there’s a 50/50 chance, but if you are unarmed or unable to draw a weapon because the perp has you where they could stab you or shoot you before you could do so, it’s better, IMO, to just be able to pull out a wallet to give to them and then haul ass out of there and hope that they don’t shoot you. Simpler then trying to state, “I don’t have a wallet…”
I do the same thing! I have an old, beat-up, very slim wallet that I put invalid credit cards in and a few dollar bills. This is my decoy wallet in case I ever need to just hand something over.
Yeah I guess that might work, at least give a second to break away, but why would you put a twenty in it?
Just in case they look in it, there is some money for them. Probably a baseless concern, but I just thought so they would think they got something and not pursue.
Carrying a firearm > drinking. Any. Day. Of. The. Week.
^^This^^
I fully agree. I would rather be safe and sober than drunk or even buzzed and take a risk. Alcohol is only at home for me and on VERY rare occasions.
yes. Be the designated driver….
Mexican American Cultural Center? Quit fooling around…
Something about avoiding stupid people, being in stupid places, or doing stupid things…
Are we supposed to cower in our homes 24 hours a day afraid the bogeyman is going to get us?
Does not sound “free” to me.
I take that “stupid places” thing to mean stuff like hanging out in dealer neighborhoods and trying to be a “player” yourself, etc, not stuff like going to a music festival to hear some tunes.
Did he have to cross some bad areas to get to the bus stop? Maybe. But at what point does a person stop living their life else someone else call it “stupid?”
I guess this “stupid people” thing is a platitude that sounds good, but how does one put it into practice? Seems a very personal decision.
After all, if I get mugged in Target parking lot tomorrow, are people going to say I was in a stupid place? One could make that argument…street crime DOES happen in parking lots…
It’s not even a bad area normally–I live not far away and have walked along that path myself a number of times. I guess all the tourists attracted muggers.
Incidentally, the red flag in the map is a bit misleading. The east most bridge in that map is Congress, and the MACC is over where the word “Lake” appears.
Drinking can be bad for your health….not carrying your gun can be worse…
Lesson learned — if you don’t carry, you’d better be able to run real fast, maybe over 1000 feet per second.
Glad it worked out and you could run away. Could have turned out horribly differently.
This is a classic situation in which politicians intimidated an innocent person to the extent that he decided not to exercise a civil right. That’s just wrong. But those of us who carry regularly and try to abide by the law face this decision from time to time.
There is one lesson to be learned here: If you decide to go to a sketchy part if town and go unarmed, try to walk with a buddy or two. That may improve your odds of not being targeted by thugs–somewhat.
> I wasn’t sure of my right to carry;
Not good for a carrier not to know the carry laws.
In this situation, I think OP has a good case for not knowing the law.
Texas CHL law states most public, i.e. city/county/state, owned places are legal to carry. But the fact that alcohol was being served there raised a potential barrier. Given the temporary nature of the event, the TABC site might not even have the data on their website which would have answered that part of the question.
I’m always armed with something. Usually a Pepper Blaster & a knife. No concealed carry YET(Illinois). My running days are over(I’m 60). I go everywhere so armed except government buildings where I might be searched. If it’s a choice between disarming or having SOMETHING I always go with something. And I’ll brave any consequences.
If you socialize, and know you are going out and about , carry, don’t drink! Have a soda or juice.Drink at home. Small price you have to pay to stay dilligent.
It was a guy trying to mug me that started me carrying a gun. The guy faked a gun in his pocket, we ended up fighting, he never pulled a knife which was good because I didn’t even have a knife on me at the time.
The mugger ended up running away, but it was a close thing; I bought a Ruger .357 magnum revolver the next day and I’ve been carrying ever sense; as well as a knife. Seventeen years now, it’s gone by fast.
A. Your situational awareness is lacking good judgement
B. buddy system.
C. Are you stupid walking alone at night in a city
D. You’re lucky regardless of if you can carry or not don’t make yourself a target…and you did
“A. Your situational awareness is lacking good judgement”
Just wanted to throw this out there…
EVERYONE has situational awareness lapses. Anyone can get caught during a moment of focused attention.
If you think your SA is “on” 100%, I’d like to know what color car was behind you at the last red light, how many people were in it, and what they were doing. If you can answer that question, I’ll ask another, until I find one you cannot answer. It won’t take long, two or three questions, tops.
Maybe the poster had a SA fail…but let’s also give him credit for recognizing the threat before it went hands-on so he at least had those seconds to mentally prepare for “something not being right.”
It sure is easy to criticize. Let’s turn it around to something we can all learn from or improve.
MUCH better, in my opinion, than just saying something like “your SA needs work” is to take the lesson for ALL of us, those new to SD ideas and those of us that so beyond tacticool they don’t even have a word for it yet, is to adapt…to lessen our response time when we ARE surprised.
I mean, if we all had 100% SA, these things would never happen. What we need to work on is response time if/when we have a SA fail…because that happens to all of us.
My two cents…
I didn’t see anyone else mention it, but if you are going to be out at night you should have a flashlight. You can buy a small flash light to carry in your front pocket that is powerful enough to mess up someone’s OODA loop and thier night vision. It can also be used as a blunt intrument. To reinforce what everyone else said; brush up on your situational awareness, know you gun rights, and consider taking a taxi.
And Shannon Watts wonders why I was carrying when I met her at SXSW.
I accidentally sprayed some very strong pepper spray into a light breeze (and I mean light) the other day, explaining to a friend how effective it was. When it drifted back on both of us, it was way getting hit by a locomotive. I know that sometimes when a perp is high this stuff is not effective, but I cannot imagine getting a full face of it, high or not. Just my $.02…
Yikes, sounds like public transportation in Austin is as bad as here in Seattle. Glad you’re safe!
JR, by some I meant start training. And no, for work we had 7 weeks of unarmed combatives work with a three week break inbetween. By the end we had it down pretty good, and we were doing it in full kit. We even trained to take on multiple assailants at the same time. I firmly believe what contributed to our learning so fast was the instructors drilled into us it was you or your attackers. You win fights by killing whoever was dumb enough to attack you, if you think here’s such thing as a fair fight then you will lose.
My point was that having another tool in your toolbox is always a good thing. BTW if somebody claims they can teach “street fighting” then they are very very ignorant.
7 weeks. Sounds like initial training (boot camp or CJA?).
“By the end [of seven weeks] we had it down pretty good, and we were doing it in full kit.”
That sounds like some sort of red man suit training. Or, am I just misunderstanding your wording?
Then again I do do BJJ amd Krav Magna every week, plus some other stuff. Your point is valid, and however my statement about street fighting stands.
I am nothing even remotely close a hint of an MA expert (or even one knowledgeable enough to do anything but ask hopefully informed questions), but …
Is BJJ really all that good for “street survival?”
To clarify, more regarding the way it’s taught, which is geared more for MMA ‘sport’ fighting. BJJ tends to focus on ground grappling most of the time, which is pretty much the LAST place you want to find yourself on the street.
I’ve always thought straight up classical Judo (which is not unlike BJJ) made more sense, as the emphasis is more stand-up defense. Throw your opponent off and get the hell away seems a solid strategy.
That is, Judo when applied to ‘street defense’ is very amenable to creating distance and getting the heck out of Dodge.
Doctrinally, BJJ just seems (again more the way it’s taught in the present day) more about “engage and defeat” vs Judo’s more apparent focus on ‘stay on your feet.’
I could well be wrong about that, though…my experience with BJJ is limited to what I’ve read. The Self Defense stuff I’ve learned from the LEO end was very clearly based on classical jiu jitsu and judo.
BJJ and Judo do both share ‘full contact’ in practice. From the very first lesson, judoka run full speed, full contact throws (but still on mats, not concrete and broken glass…which is kinda hard to justify in practice, haha).
When thinking about what to get my children involved in, I’ve always gravitated more to Judo (as thinking it seemed more practical from a purely defense standpoint), though it is MUCH harder to find qualified Judo instructors.
And yeah, I get that this is the MA version of the caliber wars…
What, not one keyboard Rambo describing how he would have employed a Half-Louie roundhouse kick coupled with a Triple Dogleg Nosebleed Maneuver to disable both thugs? What the hell kind of forum is this?
Kidding aside, glad you did what you did and left those humps in the dust. Fast feet is always a good backup plan.
Sounds like a Van Damme move circa 1989. Even in 1989, I couldn’t have pulled off that move!
What’s a more effective, and simply more doable move, is the lawful carry of a concealed firearm in one’s right back pocket in a pocket holster specifically designed for the back pocket. When the bad guy asks for your wallet, he’s specifically instructing and expecting you to reach into your back pocket and pull something out. Give him the surprise of his potentially short remaining life with something other than your wallet.
Uncle George’s Wallets are produced right there in Austin, TX by Uncle George, himself; who’s retired from a career with U. of Texas, as I recall. I carry one of his wallet holsters for my Taurus TCP .380 and it’s worked out great for me. I’ve seen a couple others mention in comments that they, too, carry an Uncle George pocket holster; but I don’t recall having seen a TTAG review. It would be nice, particularly since UG is right there in Austin, too.
Yep. The Uncle George’s wallet holster is high on my wish list. In fact, now that I think of it, it was very reasonably priced so I should probably go order one right now while it’s on my mind.
Did you perchance miss this post?
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/robert-farago/ttag-reader-mugged-at-knife-point-at-south-by-southwest/#comment-1638729
This is a teachable moment for everyone. Events like this are target rich environments. People from out of town are not in their right frame of mind, since they’re here for a good time and subconsciously assume the entire world around them is on vacation. The regular rules of situational awareness no longer apply.
Then there’s the reasonable assumption that a given attendee of such an event would have had alcohol, making them also less vigilant than they might normally be.
If you’re local and alcohol free, hey that’s great, but the criminals don’t necessarily know that. They’re just playing the odds and you’re playing their game. It’s best to do your homework ahead of time and determine what the carry restrictions will be at the venue you’re attending. This is Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo season in Houston, which lasts for weeks, and we have many tourists from out of town visiting. Parking is available throughout the neighboring areas and some shuttles are available here and there. Still, many people end up walking from the venue back to their cars in all directions, down various thoroughfares and side streets. Criminal opportunities abound.
The smart attendee would have visited the event’s website or other appropriate source and determined whether licensed firearms were permitted and under what circumstances. In the case of the Rodeo, they are allowed, although the typical restrictions on carrying while intoxicated are still in effect. Texas is better than most states on concealed carrying, but there are still restrictions.
It’s up to individuals to take responsibility for themselves, know the rules up front, and not make assumptions that leaves them disarmed. You need to know the laws, too, not just what some venue states. For example, our local library had an illegal 30.06 sign posted. Public libraries, as such, are not statutorily designated gun free zones and political subdivisions (cities, counties, etc.) are pre-empted from regulating the carrying of firearms outside of very strict circumstances. This sign was illegally dissuading patrons from carrying by suggesting the library could legally ban firearms. So I contacted the County, outlined the problem, and they instructed the library to remove the sign. The library complied and that sign was down before lunchtime. It was actually a sign consisting of stenciled lettering, not just a single cardboard sign. So someone had to go scrape each illegal letter off by hand. Know your rights, people, and defend yourselves!
Whatever your plan for that situation is, violence of action is key. The key thing to remember is some people who read TTAG are people whose lives depend on various forms of combatives. Some people are trained to handle multiple assailants. Nothing beats gun though, except dinosaur.
I may have exaggerated, my bad, it’s kind of like saying “I love you” to your boss, yeah. Anywho, some form of combatives is a good tool to have, that said I realize I have practiced for situations that some have not, now I am off to Rambo kick a dolphin in the blow hole.
My ideology of gun use is the same as same as those old kungfu masters: use only when of last resort. The smartest thing would be to throw your wallet over the thug’s shoulder and run in the opposite direction. How much is in your wallet? Is your ego worth ending a life/risk your own?
If necessary though…shoot the *******.
“The smartest thing would be to throw your wallet over the thug’s shoulder”
Ugh. I’m started to feel like a broken record.
There is no “smartest thing to do.” It’s very situationally dependent. Throwing something at someone might, or might not, buy you the opportunity to get away.
Or, it might be seen by him as you attacking and force him to escalate in HIS force continuum.
It can be a fatal mistake to assume that he JUST wants your wallet and what’s in it, and that he’s blind to everything else. He may well be aculturated to violence in a way you and I don’t fully understand.
The bottom line is that whatever you THINK about his motivations and responses to your actions are based on how YOU THINK.
Here’s one I picked up that I think illustrates the point quite well. It’s a paraphrase a firearms instructor made based off something he learned in a William Aprill lecture:
Stop for a moment and think about how you felt when you graduated high school…or graduated college…or got that promotion…or bought your first house…or finished that difficult project. Something difficult that took you time and effort and that challenged your abilities, the completion of which signaled to you achievement of a goal or attainment of a status you’d been hoping for over an extended period of time. Do you have that feeling in mind? Good.
That’s how a bad guy feels when he bashes somebody’s skull in with a fucking shovel.
If you happen to come across this guy, he’s not going to care if you throw your wallet.
And I think that quote came from this thread:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html&page=1
People with 0% BAC should be able to carry in bars IMHO
Texas’ reasoning is understandable with the 51% part of the law but it’s poorly executed. If you have a 0% BAC and are not drinking at all you should be able to have your weapon in a bar. Chances are you aren’t staying for a while anyway.
If you can murder four people while drunk in Texas and all you get is probation, I’m sure they wouldn’t mind you carrying while drunk, assuming your from an affluent white family. Wonder if that young fellow that only killed one person at SXSW while drunk driving will get the same “harsh” penalty? Texas and California are proof the country is tilted. All the nuts roll down hill.
If you popped them they would have gone after you for carrying where you should not of earlier in the evening. The knife may have disappeared as well, making you the new GZ. I agree not carrying put you at risk but no one got hurt and you’re not on the news.
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