The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) once raided one of our readers: a kitchen table FFL dealer who does everything – everything – by the book. He has, however, consistently criticized the ATF for its unconstitutional regulations and long history of extra-legal activities. This is his story. Update to follow, after he consults with his lawyer . . .
First of all, forget about them coming to the door. They’ll intercept you on your way home from the doctor’s office (for example), then one vehicle will come up behind you and two will block your way in front and turn on the flashing lights. They then jump out with ‘real’ assault rifles, point them at you and ordering you to put your hands up and exit the vehicle.
You, being a law abiding citizen, will comply. At gunpoint, they order you to assume the position against your car, handcuff and frisk you, and you’re directed to get into the back seat. Then the lead agent gets into the driver seat and drives your car to your driveway. You sit there with cuffed hands behind you – bleeding.
As multiple vehicles close off the street and announce over a loudspeaker that all of your neighbors should remain indoors (they’re prohibited from leaving). The lead agent calls your house and directs your wife to come out – and sit in the front seat. She does. Then the Homeland Security Special Tactical Unit, and the county sheriff SWAT Team arrive, and drive two armored cars over the curb onto the lawn, as the “jackbooted thugs” with machine guns, helmets, boots, camo, etc. enter and search your house.
You see a Homeland Security helicopter circling overhead. You are asked if you have any explosives (well, several cans of black powder….) and if there are any booby traps in the house. They offer to let you read the search warrant, but your hands are cuffed behind your back. The agent in your car reads it very quickly.
After the jackbooted thugs are through, teams arrive to search and ransack the house. After about an hour, you are released and NO CHARGES are filed against you. You are required to stay beyond the perimeter as they set up tables in your yard and begin to paw through and process your worldly possessions.
You finally realize that they’re going to keep an eye on you, but you go to a neighbor’s house to make phone calls and find a good lawyer, who arrives on site, but is kept out by the agents. The agents search one of your cars and release it to you. Hours later, knowing there is nothing you can do on site, you leave and arrange a motel for the night.
Later, about 9PM (12 hours later), you phone your house and an agent answers. He advises you they’re about to leave. You drive to your house to see four feds in your front yard, ready to leave. They tell you they don’t know where the house key is (which you gave them) or where your cat is. They hand you a copy of the search warrant, but fail to provide a copy of the inventory (which they give you two days later).
You examine your house. Your computers are gone along with every extra and old hard drive, all data CDs, floppies, thumb drives, compact flash drives, and other SD drives for your camera. But most shocking, is that your entire gun collection, which you spent a lifetime building, is gone.
Antique guns, airguns, non-guns. Virtually everything. One antique shotgun lies broken on the floor. Papers are strewn everywhere. Once they looked at it, and didn’t want it, they just tossed it aside. Piles of paper. The house is trashed – every room. Your clothing has been ransacked. Your wife’s clothing and underwear. You don’t even know what is missing. You look around, feel sick, lock up the house and go to the motel.
You return the next day to try to start to get things back in order, but realize it will take weeks.
Later, you find out that the affidavit which justified the search warrant is sealed. You can’t even find out why they searched you home and seized your firearms.
A few days later, the sworn affidavit is unsealed and you find out that the agent lied repeatedly, told half-truths, speculated about possible violations, and related his ‘suspicions’ with no basis in fact. That the search warrant is nothing more than a gigantic fishing expedition just to see what they could find . . .
And some people still believe we don’t live in a police state.
Exactly! Yesterday I posted, on another topic, the power the DHS has to take your cell phone, and other electronics off your person, with no search warrant or probable cause. This power is granted to agents if you live within 100 miles of a border, which encompasses 197 million citizens. Thank you George Bush and the Patriot Act.
That covers all of Florida.
It covers most Americans. The Bush Administration really did not let the crisis of 9/11 go to waste. Patriot Act my ass. It is the most unpatriotic piece of legislation perhaps ever passed.
Actually you can thank Obama for that now, the Patriot Act was all set to sunset in 2011 until Obama signed an extension.
Just remember Congress had to approve the extension before Barry could sign it !
The Patriot Act was first passed by a Republican controlled Congress and signed by a Republican President. It was extended by a Democratically controlled Congress, with many Republicans voting for it, and signed by an Republican President. It has been extended again by a Democratically controlled Congress, with many Republicans voting for it, and signed by a Democratic President. The common theme? Neither the Republicans or the Democrats take their oaths seriously. They violate the Constitution with impunity. Why do they do this? They know that the people are stupid and will put them back in office again and again. As long as we the stupid people believe that we must either vote for a D or an R, we will continue down the road to bigger government and less freedom. We seem to enjoy our liberties being taken away. It’s is obvious that many of us, including many gun owners, enjoy sucking of the tit of government more than we like being free. If it’s a choice between freedom and a social security check covered by stolen money from our children and grand children, we’ll take the stolen money every time!
…and only one Senator opposed the passing of the Patriot Act for the simple reason – he was not able to read it.
Doesn’t it just figure that the stupid Patriot Act is the only thing the Democrats and Republicans seem to both agree on.
It would seem that the general public has no conception of the power that the ATF and DHS hold now. That can do virtually anything to anyone and cover it up as probable cause for “something”! Never thought I would live to see our once great and free country turned into a POLICE STATE!!
Oh… Too funny!
And G. W. Bush kept this country safe ;>}
Yeah, “It’s Bush’ fault, and you’re a racist…”
The best part is the Patriot Act was essentially written before W was even elected the first time. They just knew something like that would never pass. Then the appropriate crisis came along, the language was tweaked to fit it, and it was passed. If 9-11 had happened 2 years earlier the exact same thing would’ve happened.
The border exception clause to the 4th Amendment is older than George W Bush *and* his father put together.
Please stop talking out of your ass.
Would you PLEASE stop blaming Bush for all the crap Obama is doing!! He has been gone for five years!
The patriot act was supposed to expire 2 years ago, Obama signed us up for another 4 years.
Dont forget the NDAA……listen close you can hear the 4th choking on its own blood…
You mean the Patriot Act that has been extended in its entirety…..TWICE……by the Democrat Congress and signed by Obama? Say what you will about this law, but the facts are that in was originally passed in haste after 911, and that’s bad enough, but, the Democrats have passed it twice again in the cool, level-headed years since. Obama owns the Patriot Act now. Blame him.
This is when the neighbors need to stand together and come to each others aid. Terrorisism whether by al queda or dhs should be dealt with swiftly. If not at that moment then after it is revealed who causd the the search warrant to be issued and if not for valid reasons then that individual and his family should be put through the same ammount of humiliation and degredation and let it be known that this bullshit should not be allowed or will have consequences. The judge issuing it can only act on the info given but if it can be shown that this was nothing but retaliation for an american citizen exercising his first ammendment rights then those responsible should be held accountable and if the system won’t then the people should.
My wild guess, is that “the people” will again start acting like civilized, responsible citizens; rather than bent over slaves; somewhere around 1 – 2 generations after the US population is predominantly Muslim. Between 2200 and 2500, in other words.
The cowardly rabble calling themselves citizens nowadays, are most likely not even aware that there are more effective ways of dealing with occupying thugs, than to sit flat footed and fat on the couch, cheering for one imaginary side of the thugband trying to win some childish popularity contest against the equally imaginary other side.
Current population growth rates say otherwise.
Atheism is on the rise, but will soon be overtaken by Catholicism because of the rising Hispanic population.
It is predicted that in the mid 2040s, the majority of Americans will be hispanic women without a HS Diploma.
“Cowardly rabble”?? Excuse me? What the hell are his neighbors supposed to do, take on the DHS as a neighborhood militia? Good grief!!!
You sound like a left-winger… “There are other ways…” What “other ways” for example would you have these people get off the couch?? (shaking my head)
traderpards said: “What the hell are his neighbors supposed to do, take on the DHS as a neighborhood militia?”
First they came for this guy and nobody spoke up……finally they came for traderpards and there was nobody left to speak. Recent and older events show us that we must assume that LEOs, especially federal LEOs are up to no good and are violating the law. Our cowardice is costing us our freedom!
Ya’ll need to be educated. Respectfully, you do NOT know the muslims. They marry girls between the ages of 6 and 13, and consumate the marriage ASAP. The wife by islamic law must bear at least 11 children. The husband can have as many wives as he can afford. Even with only one wife , that means that in five generations the muslim population would be over 2 BILLION! Just enter 11 times 11 into your calculator, and hit the equals key. Count how many times it takes to exceed 240 million.
Saying “you do NOT know the muslims” is a straw man argument. You do not and can not know the Muslims either. It would take you more than a lifetime to know them all. All Catholics are not the same. They do not all follow all Catholic dogma. It’s the same for all religious denominations, including Muslims. There are thousands or even millions of Christians who do not take part in organized Christian Church’s. I’m guessing that in this time, the number of Muslim men who wed 6 to 13 year olds is very small if it even happens at all. I know some Muslims and the wives are treated with respect and they are not required to bear at least 11 children. When you try and lump every person that might have some beliefs of a group into the whole group, you’ve already lost the argument. Doing so is an Alinsky tactic and it is what the progressives do. They say gun owners are crazy. This on it’s face is false. There may be a few gun owners that are crazy but the vast majority are good people. Many on our side say that gun owners will not turn in their guns. Again, this is false. Some gun owners will turn them in. Some gun owners support many of the proposed laws. The only group we should all be lumped into is Americans. Even then, Americans are all individuals with Creator bestowed rights and freedoms.
There is only ONE way this travesty will be stopped. Not by an armed neighborhood militia, not by law-suits and certainly not at the polling booth. The ONLY way this will be stopped is if 100’s, 1,000’s if not 10’s of thousands of lone-wolfs step up to the plate and mete out retribution to those “only taking orders”. Word will spread pretty quickly how unhealthy it is to violate the rights guaranteed by our Constitution.
Some advocate organization, training etc. but it’s my belief that we’d be doing nothing more than replicating what the earlier colonialist did against the British. Line formation and decimation. With today’s technology, there are no secrets beyond those held by one.
Some advocate going after the head of the snake. Well.. if you’ve ever watched that old movie “Sargent York” in his idea on how to shoot a flock of turkey’s, you’d see a different approach.
When our “leaders” attempt an effort down the road, they’ll look behind them and see no soldiers willing to follow. Just my 2 cents.
Bill miller – I believe you need to educate yourself, you seem too be very ignorant, well atleast when it comes to Islam. Provide me your source and reference for your claim! Minimum 11 children? As many wives as they want? Marriage from 6-13? Really? Here is some education for you, Islam is the only religion that says marry only one women! Source: holy Quran 4-3
Why spread the miseducation? Do you not think people can look up what the satanic verses say?
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four.
Sounds like its A-OK for satans spawn to have multiple wives. Besides that, we all know that the pedophile had many including a six year old.
Perhaps a more realistic solution is for the community to put a lot of pressure on prosecutors to press perjury charges against the agent who lied on the request for warrant.
The only way to combat this is to have an organized resistance available on a moments notice that local friends and relatives are notified immediately by each other to gather within a few minutes after the start of the raid and let up a perimeter around the thugs aka: the Tennessee town in the movie. Stop them before they take anything away. Make them prove on the spot, what they allege is accurate.
Most of the people who work for the ATF are good folks. But, the ATF really should be broken up with some of the responsibilities placed with the appropriate departments and others simply dropped. The dept of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act should be handled like nuclear waste (if at all). VERY CAREFULLY indeed. There had better be CREDIBLE evidence with capable and redundant safeguards and compensation for those wrongly accused or targeted.
God, what an ugly story.
“Most of the people who work for the ATF are good folks.”
BS. I believe there are handful that believe they are good. However, they do nothing to get rid of the bad. Even the F&F whistle blowers did nothing about the crimes being committed until AFTER one of their own got killed. Had Agent Terry not been killed, we would have known nothing about F&F
I was referring to secretaries, office workers, and those not a part of the problem areas.
You may give them a pass as being non essential personnel, but they’re cogs just like the field agents, remove the working parts and the machine cannot function.
The issue I have with this story: There is nothing to back up his blog post. I’m not saying that this didn’t or does not happen but where is the evidence? Where’s a copy of the unsealed sworn affidavit? What city or state? How about names of DHS agents? I am not sure that DHS has a Special Tactical Unit??? There is a lot of “color” but very little fact. I’m sure that some more evidence could have been given
I’ve been burned before reading something online that I later find out is full of it or just someone’s creative story.
I’m with Brian. This would indeed be a horrible travesty–and not at all outside the realm of possibility–but without any way to confirm with outside resources, what can we do with it? If the purpose was to inform, then inform. Give us a name and a city/state if nothing else. Surely this was in the local news somewhere so the vicitm’s name is already released.
City is Albuquerque, state is New Mexico. The home belonged to Robert Adams. Ralph included a link above to krqe.com which gives more information.
Ralph posted that krqe link 5 days ago on the 13th
Considering that government uses force to protect us from illegitimate force, then government force can be used to tell you what relationships you should have. That’s why these guys require you be licensed for everything from earning a living to even getting married. In other words, you need their permission. Once that happens, you are no longer citizens, but subjects, who must live by their leave. In short, they make you their slave.If the only way to enforce a program is via laws and taxes then ultimate threat is incarceration or even death. If you impose a fine, you need jail to back up the fine, and if people refuse to go to jail, you will need to send armed representatives to make them go.Every tyrant in history has said the same thing. “How to you enforce a law? Well, ultimately you have to be willing to shoot people.
Don’t worry, “I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”
I do not even have words for this…
Can you file a lawsuit? What can even be done about stuff like this?
hahaha, what can be done? Keep a bottle of Astroglide on hand in case them decide to come back a second time.
Kinda what I figured…sad day.
PR and legal campaign. Contact the NRA, provide them with as much information as possible (like what many people did after Hurricane Katrina with NOPD confiscated their firearms), and let them have a field day with it. Especially in times like these, situations that cast a negative shadow on government agencies and the public being aware of their activities.
Contact the NRA? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is funny. The NRA supports most of this crap!
I was sadly amused by that also.
You could contact SAPA (Second Amendment Protection Agency) They are new but they are firmly dedicated to the protection of Law-Abiding Citizens from the Government who has chosen to forget the rule of law and the Agencies who are run like organized crime with the protection from our elected officials that have forgotten that they SERVE us and not the other way around! SAPA would be willing to set up and account for specifically that purpose.
You mean contact the SAF. We know from the recently failed joke of a lawsuit that the NRA doesn’t actually put out any effort in court.
Think about this: the SAF just selected Cheaper Than Dirt as a diamond sponsor. Seems the firm donated 100,000 dollars. Who says you can’t buy love.
Well, there goes my support for SAF as well.
“Well, there goes my support for SAF as well.”
With all due respect, you’re an idiot. You expect SAF to turn the money down? What are you going to do, boycott them?
Yes, I do expect SAF to turn down money when it comes from people who have shown themselves to be anti-rights. If you can’t argue your position without calling names, you shouldn’t even try.
Theaton is a fool.
A noisy chattering fool.
The SAF has done far more for Second Amendment rights that theaton will ever accomplish.
You should learn to present your arguments without name calling? Name calling is the tactic of the anti-rights crowd. I must assume that you are a plant from them or you are too young to have learned to not call names.
Yes, the SAF has done much good. However, many groups that have done good in the past have done things that cause them to loose favor with those that support rights. The NRA still does a very good job at teaching firearms handling and safety but I’d never give the a dime because of the bad they have done.
Contact your local militia, train extensively, keep your powder dry and prepare 🙂 Sry if my posts today are a little over the edge on this thread, federal law enforcement is literally the tip of the Anti-Freedom Spear.
No, as long as it is issued by the courts…your pretty much screwed!
And as long as we are willing to bend over and take it, it will continue.
Wrong. You can get the search warrant invalidated and sue the crap out of the government. You can also force the government to indict the agent for perjury (remember, that affidavit was given under oath). You will pay out the ass for the legal representation, but at the end you will likely end up getting it all back. You won’t get back the years that it will take though.
The problem is that people keep allowing this to happen. If people would take the federal government to the matt over this, it wouldn’t happen. They go as far as you will let them go. Go after the agents, the agency, and everyone who signed anything related to this. Make the next person think twice about pulling that crap. It won’t stop until people start doing that.
Maybe TTAG can start a fund/find legal counsel to sue the DHS in this case?
As long as you have a spare $100K (just for retainers) lying around, I agree. Going up against the Fed is gonna take $300K, if you’re lucky.
Unfortunately, the gov (generally) knows better than to pick on people with the means to defend themselves in court. They pick on people who can barely afford entry-level counsel.
This is a very politically charged case. A firmly pro-2a lawyer might offer to do it pro bono because of the other business they’ll get if they win.
Not likely, by any means, but possible.
But what about all the “good” cops like LC Judas and Accur81? They would never embellish the facts, search peoples homes or cars in a fishing expedition, engage in civil asset forfeiture, or grab guns in the name of getting them off the street. Oh wait, all cops do that, its standard operating procedure.
The ugly truth, right here.
You prolly don’t care, but you know more people might take you seriously if you didn’t obsess over holocaust stuff and say some dubious racial **** from time to time. It’s gotten to the point that when I agree to you, I often don’t want to.
Alas, when you’re right you’re right.
I also want to point something else that is sort of related to the post I responded to.
The human capacity to justify immoral deeds to one’s self is truly staggering. It’s our nature. It’s a coping method. But just because it’s our nature doesn’t mean that it’s good. Two wrongs don’t make a right and most people know this, but they often try to say what they did was less wrong, or the guy who committed the first wrong brought it on himself, or use some convoluted illogic as justification.
Good people can fool themselves into doing bad things. Or maybe they don’t know what they’re doing is bad. And they can also be used as a weapon against others by evil people in charge.
Prolly…? Who or what is a prolly? Does it bite? What do you feed it? Is it a boy or a girl? you probably meant “probably”. Don’t tell me…you flunked spelling in school.
Really LarryR? You don’t know what prolly is? Many of the words we use today were not acceptable or even known just decades ago. I don’t understand the desire to belittle people with a critique of their spelling. If you understand what they are trying to get across, does it really matter if they don’t spell every word to your satisfaction?
We’ve let the government get away with infringing our rights on a daily basis. We’ve let them commit murder at Ruby Ridge and Waco. We’ve let them railroad David Olofson, the Reese family and countless others. We’ve let them traffic firearms to criminals in foreign countries which have resulted in the deaths of at least two Federal agents and countless citizens. And all you can worry about is spelling? Really?
Sounds more like he’s worried about incoherent ghetto “English” from an agent provacateur like theaton.
“you probably meant “probably”.
You probably meant to type “you” with an upper case Y since it was the first word in your sentence.
No Larry but I know what a Troll is.
I’ve removed an SKS with a sawed off barrel from a guy that used it to rob a homeowner and hold them hostage while his buddies took a bunch of stuff.
Can I be in the ‘good cop’ club too?
So you are “good” for doing the job you are paid to do? Hardly. I would call that adequate. But it really dosen’t matter how many “atta boys” you have, one “ah shit” is all it takes to make you a bad cop.
So, if doing the job is adequate, what would make a cop good? Is it even possible, or are cops only able to be adequate or bad?
Don’t take this as support for the warrant or anything else, it’s just a general question.
The problem in the LEO world is that one “ah shit” can completely ruin or end the life of a fellow American. In addition, the propensity in the LEO world when that “ah shit” happens is to protect one another and deny everything, so the damage is just perpetuated.
We (the non-LEO) realize that LEO are human and make mistakes, and their reputation would be more favorable if the overwhelming majority would search for justice with the same vengeance as when the justice seeking doesn’t involve one of their own…
This is all unfortunately true.
All it takes is one “ah shit” to make a regular citizen a felon, which carries much greater repercussions than being a bad cop. And those LEOs dont seem to like to give us regular joes a second chance, why should give them one?
It was mainly a sarcastic response, but thanks anyway.
So I am not allowed to make any mistakes whatsoever, gotcha.
Tough crowd here at TTAG when you’re a cop.
Cory J it may be a tough crowd but that is how it should be. One mistake could have serious repercussions for the common citizen that may take years to rectify. Whereas the officer who screwed up may never be punished for it, or may only receive a slap on the wrist. Take for example the fine police work exhibited by police in southern California. Officers there fired upon civilians, rammed into private vehicles, and wantonly destroyed private property. None of those officers will ever pay for their crimes. If a civilian were react in this fashion they would be in jail for many years.
We have created a system that elevates police officers above normal citizens and then removed them from the judicial process. Civilians have no legal recourse to rectify an injustice forced upon them by the people who are paid to protect us. There is no reason why anyone should have to ask permission to sue a police officer, or government agency. There is absolutely no reason department responsible for holding the police accountable (Internal Affairs) is made up of police, it should be an independent agency outside of the police, made up of civilians. If every cop knew that every action taken could result in both civil and judicial action against them, perhaps we would have a lot less corruption.
Back in the (slightly more at least) civilized era, cops were deputized civilians. That gets around lots of the us vs. them mentality that seems to infect that profession these days.
It also reinforces the idea that anything that is OK to do for a cop, is OK to do for a civilian. And, perhaps even more importantly, ditto for that which is not OK to do.
As a third bonus, there are limits to the nonsensicalness of laws that the scumbags-in-chief can reasonably expect deputized civilians to bother risking life and limb to enforce vis-a-vis their neighbor. The whole “bit I was just doing my job” drivel is much harder to hang onto in such a world.
Of course, we’ve come quite a long way from a civilization, so it will probably take quite some effort to get the basic tenets of one back.
I really think we need to shelve the idea the police are paid to protect us as the fallacy it is. This mistaken idea of the role of police is one of the barriers to a more universal appreciation of the 2A.
Sorry but I had to Butt in here. There are GOOD LEs and Bad LEs and even GREY LEs. If an LE Stops a Robbery, Murder or any Crime using Righteous information; then he/she has PERFORMED a VERY GOOD SERVICE TO THE PEOPLE no matter their Good, Bad or Grey they may be in Another Investigation. That they are Generally Bad doesn’t mean they don’t do a small amount of good for the people. Give CREDIT where Credit is Due. As for the Grammar. I’m 60yrs Old today and I have 2 Grown children. They way the School system is being run; We the People are LUCKY that My Children s Generation can even Read and Write at a 6th Grade Level!!! The Fed Gov is the Cause and even my Children (we taught them at home even though they went to public school. Public Schools are teaching to test and very little else.) As long as I can UNDERSTAND the Word that was Shortened, I have Little to NO CONCERN!!! We are Communicating and THAT IS THE PRIMARY ISSUE other then the Conversation that is being discussed.
Thanks for reading.
I’ve served search warrants with cause and affidavit. The warrants were 100% available for review, and were in direct response to probable cause via an active investigation. I am familiar with the 4th Amendment, thanks. The search warrants were for murder, attmpted murder, and vehicular homicide with gross negligence. You can lump me in with your words, but I won’t be lumped in by my actions.
And is DHS wants my cell phone, they can kiss my a$$.
I’ve only done one for a DUI blood draw, but it was also available as part of the case.
A forced blood draw for DUI? Absolutely insane.
Your a cop, the DHS would respect the blue line of bullshit and never try and take your phone.
And right there it calls your work into question. I’ve seen the obscenely low standard for “probable cause” – it basically means “because the officer wants to”.
no not all LEO’s do it…some of us get fired or leave due to this crap being done because it goes against our sworn oath…
Yes, not all LEOs do it but the ones that don’t also don’t report the ones that do so it makes them just as guilty. If you don’t report JBTs who violate their oaths then you have violated your oath and proved it means nothing to you, other than some words to get to a paycheck.
“Just following orders”
Where have I heard that before?
I guess he should be happy they didn’t call in a drone strike.
agreed, what kind of action can you take after something like this? what’s the process look like for trying to get back your legally owned guns and other property?
also…. any chance we get to know which reader and what state? just curious
The process? You get to hire an attorney who will charge you more than the guns are worth. After a couple years you’ll get them back. You better hope they were all NP3 or similarly treated, cause you know the ATF/DHS/Cops wont bother to oil them.
Funny how when I say “DHS” out loud it just sounds like the word “Gestapo”.
I know DHS has reportedly bought a lot of ammo lately….have they been stockpiling rail cars too?
At least they didn’t burn his house down. They seem eager to do that lately.
The DHS probably already has it on the market so they can give bonuses to the JBTs
This…. I’ve seen this before…
this is both ridiculous and scary at the same time. Excellent investigation tactics, but this is an example of the “common sense” ish they have been shoveling recently.
To the FFL gentleman whose house was raided: I am very sorry to learn about the personal experience you had and what you must be going through. I am disgusted and angered as to what it represents for America’s present and future.
To Robert, I would video tape everything of importance to you in your home and leave a copy of it somewhere else.
+2 on this. This is incentive (if nothing else for homeowners insurance purposes in case of fire, flood, tornado etc.) to do a photographic and detailed inventory of your household.
More reason to own acreage and cache accordingly.
Hoping the lawyer he has will be able to do something!
What the…I don’t even…
This is despicable and yet unsurprising. We do live in a police state and have for quite some time. The populace is given enough bread and circuses to keep them fat and distracted while the statists in government keep moving their agenda forward. For our safety, of course.
Every American is a felon. The average American commits 3 felonies every day.
They can come for you any time they want. All they ahve to do is catch you.
Professor Glenn Reynolds wrote a great article titled, “Due Process When Everything is Against the Law.” A very sobering read. We have created so many laws and regulations that any one of us could be arrested at any time.
In our modern American “society,” everything that people actually like is illegal, immoral or fattening, and the fattening stuff is also becoming illegal. Only the immoral remains accessible to the average Joe or Jane. I wonder why.
Check out _Three Felonies a Day_ by Harvey Silverglate.
Definitely want to hear more on this, if the FFL dealer is willing to share. Sounds egregious, even if it is legal.
For the rest of the story, check this out:
I’m halfway through this book. Crazy that I started it before the Sandy shooting. I don’t even remember why I started reading it.
I read it shortly after Sandy Hook. A very sobering read.
I recently read the Trilogy.
It’s pretty amazing, considering he wrote EFAD in 2002.
The Trilogy has a happy ending, though.
Hopefully our story does too 🙂
This is sad. I am sorry any law abiding person has to deal with this. This is something that I would expect from a third world country. Very sad
Is it really worth living in a state like that, where that can happen to any one of us? Our Founders thought it was not and decided to take action against it. They would rather have died fighting against it than living under it. I do seriously wonder at what stage this nation is. Our politicians do not seem to be listening to us at all. What is next?
A good 4th Amendment attorney would make mincemeat out of this incident if it is indeed true, so we’ll see.
Brad, take a look at the time lines to any suit against ANY government agency. Whether local, state, federal. With all the exclusions, caps on damages, immunity from civil and criminal charges based on job description.
Then time to file, motions, delays, judge’s orders, mandatory settlement hearings…..list goes on.
Bottom line, good luck getting any justice from any of our governments, city, county, state, federal.
Wait 20 years, spend $500,000 and you MIGHT get an apology.
Have fun with all that.
You’re watching too many movies or believing everything you read on forums like these. The Fed gets sued all the time. It’s big business for the lawyers. It doesn’t take twenty years and most lawyers will work a case like this on a percentage base (if this truly happened the way it’s described here).
People like to make the Big Bad Fed out to be the boogeyman. I can tell you it’s not. It’s incompetent more than anything, as evidenced by the ATFs long string of follies, TSAs complete lack of adding anything to airline safety and DHS’s bumbling.
This incident sucks, but there more to the story. There always is. And that’s what court is for.
If we ever want to end stupid shit like this then we need to stop voting for idiots like Romney and Obama. At some point we need to stop voting for social issues and big government candidates and start voting for a constitutionalist who gets us back on track. Then we can get rid of the ATF, get rid of DHS and the TSA, the EPA OIG and FEMA.
/rant off, sorry for the tangent. Go Packers!
“People like to make the Big Bad Fed out to be the boogeyman. I can tell you it’s not. It’s incompetent more than anything…”
If you watch The Big Bang Theory or Two and a Half Men, you’re familiar with Chuck Lorre’s vanity cards at the end of each episode. This is #396, which ran back in October of last year, about two weeks before the election:
It appears as if roughly half the people in this country think that they’re in mortal danger from their own government. That’s a lot of people sensing a lot of malice and threat. I worry that I don’t see it. Sure, I see inefficiency and incompetence, but I’ve always seen that – regardless of which party’s in office. And frankly, I’ve always welcomed it. I don’t like my big bureaucracies to be cold, calculating, profit-making enterprises driven by a steely, clear-headed singular vision. A cursory glance through history would indicate that well-organized governments tend to enjoy well-organized parades, followed by well-organized ethnic cleansing. Which is why I celebrate the magnificent, muddle-headed ineptitude of our democracy. As far as I’m concerned, a little confusion and waste may keep the trains from running on time, but it also keeps people like me from getting a one-way ticket in a cattle car. Are our tax dollars being misspent on poorly run social programs? You bet! Do we get more buck for our bang at the local Post Office, Amtrak station, nuclear submarine or methadone clinic? Of course we do! But keep in mind that bureaucrats who can’t find their ass with a flashlight and a hand mirror are not likely to find you either. To paraphrase Bobby McGee: “Freedom’s just another word for who the hell’s in charge here?!”
That was a great read, Matt. Thanks.
MATT in FL strikes me as being a member of one of two groups. A government plant here to re-direct with his ridiculous propaganda about the Fed not knowing what it’s doing or has his head buried in the sand like so many others like him. And to suggest we watch a couple of “stupid” tv shows to understand the Fed is about a typical a B.S. line as the gangster BO gives every time the punk opens his mouth!
Well then. I guess you got me there, LEE, Orange Park, FL. I’m a government plant with my head in the sand, and I watch “stupid” tv. At least 50% of those things are at least 50% true.
I was going to be offended, but then I read the rest of the four comments you just left, and now I just feel sorry for you.
I only have two things to say to a 9/11 conspiracy nut who thinks we live in a “police state:” First, welcome to the site. Your first visit has proved to be outstanding, and I look forward to your contributions in the future. Second, you might want to look up police state. We have our issues, to be sure, but we’ve got a ways to go before we get to “a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population.”
Against Mother DHS? Good luck, hard to beat big brother no matter what our laws say anymore. Our laws do not apply to DHS it seems.
I find this entire incident totally despicable. What precipitated this attack on the man’s person, family and homestead? Government run amuck, again. Sigh. Yes, I agree with others, fortunate they didn’t use armored vehicles to perforate his home and burn it down, with no attempts to extiguish it. What police state did this happen in please?
DHS is federal. It could happen in any state. Another reason I advise having an off site stash of equipment. So you can have something to fall back on if this happens.
Hey at least they didn’t shoot your wife while she was holding your baby.
One day they will pull that with the wrong guy or militia, nuff said, Randy
That’s what they want to happen then they have the excuse to take everything from everyone
But they can’t take everything from everyone, not that they wouldn’t like to try. No democratic regime can maintain legitimacy under those circumstances for long. It took half the police resources of So. Cal. an entire week just to take out one cop killer. No way can they handle widespread resistance to their fascist thuggery. Ultimately they depend for their authority on the meek and gullible capitulation of a cowardly populace. Once they go too far they can kiss that compliance good by.
Presuming his innocence in the American tradition, this guy and his attorney stand to make some money. I believe a Bivens action is the federal counterpart to § 1983 suits against state law enforcement for violation of civil rights. Where’s the ACLU when you need them?
RoadRunner, see my response to same comment from Brad. Little research on the net will show that all governments and their agencies are becoming immune from lawsuits.
The ones the make it through that obstacle course, take YEARS to get close to a courtroom. Even when you win, with delays and appeals, etc. the wait is like forever. When they do, fraction of 1% every end up putting a dollar in your pocket.
Check out some of the wrongful death settlements. After the lawyers took most of it, you might afford one coffee at Starbucks.
Just ask Erik Scott’s family.
Well, here in NM, lawyers are getting rich practically every time a cop says something un-nice to a criminal he takes down. In Dona Ana County, a guy recently got $22 million because the jail locked him up for DWI and forgot about him for close to a year.
aclu will never take a 2nd amendment case , and they won’t take a 4th amendment case if it involves guns. it been their poolicy for a couple of decades at least.
At least they are consistent. They prefer to support civil rights when it results in subversion. And to be fair, as they say, even the stopped clock is right twice a day.
The ACLU is contributing funds and resources to Obamas gun gcontrol legislation, thats where they are -True Story
Welcome to NAZI America.
I think some in government would take your comment as a compliment.
Welcome to the new America. He should probably just be thankful they didn’t set fire to his house in the middle of the night or use a drone strike to eliminate him.
Is this the same incident?
I think it is!
“One neighbor who did not want to be identified said it was a shock.
“I didn’t really see the guns but from a distance,” the neighbor said. “I saw them being pulling them out into the front yard.
“*Its very scary in the fact that the school is so close by makes it seem even more dangerous.*””
“*Its very scary in the fact that the school is so close by makes it seem even more dangerous.*”
Well, yeah. Everyone knows that firearms and schools are a binary explosive. Either one by itself is perfectly safe, but if you let the two come in too close proximity, shit gets CRAAAAAZY.
I thought it was because guns will sometimes unlock the gunsafe and run down the street to the nearest school and start going off willy nilly.
Just the other day I caught one of my high capacity magazines trying to run out the back door.
Good to know guns get less dangerous the further they get from a school.
If the story is to be beleived there were discrepancies in his paperwork and down here in this part of the states they don’t play around with gunsmugglers to Mexico. If he’s innocent he should prevail in court but it’s going to cost him to fight it …. time will tell.
I was wondering if this was ever going to be covered by TTAG. I will be watching this story with great interest.
Question: How does an ACLU lawyer count from 1 to 10?
Answer: 1, 3, 4, 5 . . .
The ACLU doesn’t care. How about the NRA or GOA? There must be a watchdog group that can provide legal assistance and prosecute any overreach by authorities.
SAF and NRA for the 2nd, ACLU and EFF for the rest. Hell, considering how often a violation of one Amendment includes violations of the others, joining all of the above covers all your bases.
I did laugh at that joke, though.
Unfortunately its not a joke. The ACLU has a stated stance against the 2nd Amendment.
So when do people start shooting? There’s a reason people were hoping Dorner got every last LAPD officer and it’s stuff like this that goes on all over the US. If DHS agents that did this had their houses mysteriously burned down, you think people would still want to work for the DHS? I’m not about to start shooting either so I’m being somewhat unfair but eventually there will be a straw that breaks the Camels back and we’ll have more domestic terrorism.
Perhaps a law that would hold authorities criminally and civilly liable for damages, including suffering, if the suspect comes up clean? Of course, that would pretty much obligate cops to plant evidence if they didn’t find anything.
Even if the person is found guilty the government employees involved in a search should be held personally responsible for any damage done to property. Any time a search is made the government employees making it should be required to return the household to the state in which it was found. No more dumping drawers, smashing cabinets and destroying private property.
Since the ammo shortage has freed up some working capital, I’ve been using my C&R license to buy some great, historic rifles. So, just coincidentally, I went to this dealer’s site and found out that he’d been busted for absolutely nothing. It’s a perfect example of why your government cannot be trusted and why it is more dangerous than any street gang or home invader.
Shame on America.
No..there’s no shame at all involved here.
And that’s the problem.
in case you haven’t thought of it, this is how dorner’s are born
i read his manifesto and with what starts out as coherent documented/explained injustices and circumstances does take a twist into questioning his sanity
if this was done to you, how long would you remain sane? how long before they pushed you too far?
if you didn’t have a family, a deep sense of faith would an action like the one described above push you for personal vengence?
as i said this is how dorner’s are born
Well, except for the fact that Dorner was one of the Jackboots if his manifesto is correct. But otherwise, yeah, I agree.
Wonder how something like this would go down inside a jurisdiction where the Sheriff was one of those who publicly stated that he would arrest ANY federal agent who violated a citizen’s Second Amendment rights?
The Sheriff would be burned alive inside his office and we’d be reading vague comments in the media about how he had some connection to gun nuts and meth dealers or something. And that there was a school down the street from the substation…
Did you find the cat, or was it stomped to death as per ATF standard operating procedure?
I’m wondering what country I live in. Waco, Ruby Ridge, it’s insane. Whenever a democrat gets in charge of the ATF, they go completely out of control.
I’m no fan of the Demoncrats but this has nothing to do with party, these procedures remain intact no matter who is in charge.
Ruby Ridge was a Bush The First operation. Clinton hadn’t even been elected yet.
Please explain the role of GHWB in the Ruby Ridge incident.
The ATF doesn’t mess around when they suspect that someone is stealing their customers. Who knows what would have happened if he turned out to NOT be a law-abiding citizen?!?!
If this guy thinks its over he is a fool. They have all the time in the world. He and his family will be harassed for the rest of their lives. Wife, kids, everyone. Sad.
He pretty much has to go on the offensive, legally speaking. Lawyer up, as others have said.
Un-be-effing-lievable. If they can do this to one of us, they can do it to *any* of us, and then to *all* of us. Maybe this is why DHS is stockpiling so much ammo recently.
Reads like a fiction novel.
Give us a name and hard facts.
Otherwise, even though I trust TTAG’s integrity, I can’t judge for myself.
Use your google-fu, or check the link supplied above by RRaider.
The article reeks of bias, slanting, and sly suggestions of all sorts.
It is a disgrace to Journalism.
You don’t believe this actually happened? REALLY??? This is why we will never be able to stand up for our rights. If people keep thinking like this we will never stand up for our rights. Just like when we were saying Obama would come for our 2A rights if reelected. No one believed it and only called us paranoid.
BTW This happen in my city and here is the news article. Or maybe I fabricated this fake website to make you believe this really happen…..
When they get the wrong house or don’t find any evidence of wrong doing is the government liable for any damages? Lost or stolen items? Has anyone ever sued and won over something like this?
Yep. DHS gets sued all the time.
Clear 4th amendment violation. If that lawyer has salt, they just made him millions.
Don’t you give your 4A rights up with a FFL? Or am I confusing that with a Class 3 stamp?
Post the warrant and the affidavit.
Looks like they didn’t have a dog to shoot so they shot the cat instead.
This is why we NEED so called Assault weapons. This is why George Washington wanted us today to have AR-15s.
If you read some more of George Washington’s personal musings, he actually wanted us to have M60s, FIM-92A Stingers, and YF-23A Black Widows. Provided we actually trained with them regularly.
I have an idea: Surveillance cameras. I can’t remember exactly but I seem to remember a case of cops behaving badly during a home search which was captured on film because the guy had left his hidden cameras running.
Imagine if this FFL dealer had installed cameras? I bet that ‘accidental’ breaking of his antique shotgun would look a lot less accidental. And the search through the house would look awesome on youtube.
Cameras are becoming more ubiquitous. As with the cop caught on tape saying they were going to burn Dorner out, it’s going to happen more and more that such misbehavior is caught on tape.
Maybe we can help accommodate that process by setting up more cameras.
Hate to be a wet blanket, but when that starts happening, the feds will just add ‘any hidden camera or other monitoring system’ to the warrants, and rip all the wiring out of the walls.
Only way this could work is if the video was backed up on the internet to a server somewhere that doesn’t respect federal authority.
That exists. There are cases where cops hassled people on the street and tried to delete the video on their phone but the phone had already streamed the file to a server.
The ACLU distributes an app for that actually.
It’s not technically hard. True, the can adapt and cut your internet when they invade etc, but you can’t stop trying just cuz they counter you and you can adapt then too.
That’s good to hear, one of the things my supervisors keep telling us is that if we conduct ourselves as though we are being filmed at all times, our chances of doing something stupid are far lower. Would be some good insurance for anyone, myself included.
And I mean both acting properly and also having cameras on your property.
One of the first things they did was to knock down my security cameras and then destroy them.
I’m willing to withhold judgement (for a time at least) until I know that that is legitimate. Just sayin’. It wouldn’t hurt to have some names/FFL#s/copy of the search warrant for this raid/name of the law firm taking this case/etc. etc., that would really help the credibility of this post.
That being said, I had the weirdest dream last night:
My grandfather, an Army Doctor in World War 2, basically looked at me, and without saying anything, conveyed to me: “I didn’t march across half the continent of Europe, saving the lives of 18 year old boys who were being blown a part by artillery from nazi slime, sometimes being up to my knees in amputated limbs, with the screams of the dying around me, with the eyes of the corpses of boys just out of high school glazed-over in our mobile hospitals, and then later being RUSHED to the front lines in the middle of the night at break-neck speed because of the medical emergency at the newly-liberated camps of those who gave up their weapons without a *&;^#ing fight for you video-game playing, lazy-A$%*#@les to throw it all away to your own homegrown nazi-SH&^#-Heads!!”
Then I woke up to this little gem of a post…
I wonder if one of the goals for such attacks by DHS is intended indirectly to spread to pro 2A blogs and for the news to spread to pro Liberty Americans hoping to intimidate us.
To paraphrase a joke I heard years ago, we haven’t played cowboys and DHS yet “but I reck’n’ its a comin’.”
Pay close attention to what’s going on in New York State with the most recent attack on civil rights there. Fear mongering bigots are in control. The sack of the state and federal constitutions has started and few there are foregoing their share of the political spoils. Remember: there is no example where government mandated registration of firearms hasn’t lead to eventual confiscation of those firearms. In modern history almost 300,000,000 people have been killed by their own government after it took their guns away. Straighten your tin foil hats boys and girls and learn about Agenda 21. That’s the UN’s vision of life in the land of the free and the home of the brave and it doesn’t include your guns. Understand George Soros’ views of the Constitution of the United States and that he views America as an impediment to his one world goals. The communists in control are in his pocket.
I have an idea….
I got it from the founders: it’s in the Declaration of Independence as well as in the writings of other founders.
How much longer people? How much longer?
These jackbooted thugs, whose authority is not to be found in the Constitution, unlike, oh, say the military (article I section 8) and their existence is wholly unconstitutional. I wouldn’t trust any oath that most of them have taken and frankly doubt they have read the Constitution. Their loyalty is to the Leviathan, not to the US Constitution and the people it was written to protect.
The few who ARE decent will either leave that rogue agency, or be corrupted.
Cat was ok (hiding in the dryer!) – no thanks to them.
This was no fiction. More details will follow when attorneys permit.
Thanks for that update. As a cat/animal lover that would have sucked to hear that you never got your cat back, it was actually the first thing that came to mind as I was reading your story (gee, I hope he doesn’t have an animal and in their carelessness and callousness they let it get away).
The fact that you were violated is bad enough. To lose a loved one because of it would be absolutely terrible though.
This sounds to me like a huge violation of the FFL’s civil rights under color of law. If the Federal Justice Department will not prosecute, then it would be appropriate for the state where this occurred to prosecute.
This IS nazi Germany. Just accept it and move on. I didn’t say give up, I said accept that we are full blown nazi Germany in every way. Multiple gestapo agencies, no rule of law, total unaccountability for government especially the federal entity. Obama is not the fuhrer he’s a puppet of the secretive fuhrers, just as bush was. Now that doesn’t excuse obama or bush for allowing these differing federal takeovers during their administrations and pushing them, but you must understand that this was decades in the making and your congresswomen are mostly powerless. What operates behind the scenes is the REAL power and controls these people. The “patriot” acts were written years in advance and that’s just the beginning. When you get around to finally accepting that 9/11 was an inside job, you will have read dozens more accounts like this one about the DHS gestapo. 9/11 was the “burning of the reichstag.” I don’t want to say we’re doomed, but we partially are. It’s time to stop being afraid to speak the truth and teach your neighbors and friends the truth. This is more than mere conspiracy, this is a full blown system of power that you allowed to grow behind the scenes for DECADES at the federal level (facilitated by an endless drug war that you allowed, which laid the foundation for the tyranny we’re reading about today). The gestapo came for the pot smokers and you didn’t have a problem with that. The DEA kicked in the doors of various drug users and you cheered. Now enjoy, because it’s entrenched.
You! Yes, you! Off my planet!
Nixon and his goons weren’t smart enough to hide a break-in at a cheesy hotel for campaign secrets. That’s a pretty big leap from there to “orchestrated 9/11.”
The government is responsible for a LOOOOOOOT of sins, but frankly, abuse of power doesn’t need a grand super-secret Illuminati-esque cabal to exist. Societal creep in acceptance of what role the federal government should have in the lives of Americans over decades and decades capped off with the occasional spike like the PATRIOT Act gave us the government we have today. Circumstance and leaders unwilling to leave those circumstances unexploited.
George Orwell – A Final Warning: http://youtu.be/JXm5hklbBsA
So, this is my 1st post here and I’d like to say something about all of this. Now, am I correct in assuming that both ATF/DHS are LEO agencies correct? Albeit federal agencies but still law enforcement right? If so, then fine. Next is that we can all safely assume that these agents read these types of websites and posts and they probably have departments inside theses agencies that dedicate to spying on American’s and posing as false patriot’s and pro-2nd Amendment citizens. It doesn’t surprise me one bit that one of the readers had his Constitutional rights violated either. They do this everyday! They’ve been doing it for as long as they’ve been in power. Same deal with local and state LEO. I tend to be more favorable of the more local and state police efforts in what they do usually but now it’s more of an issue of there really are only a few “good” cops out today. Most police officers (same with federal agents) aren’t interested in doing what’s right. They’re only interested in doing what they’re set out to do by the policies and laws set forth that are written by men and judges. We have a whole system full of corrupt laws meant to enslave us which BTW affects cops since they’re citizens too. The way I see this is that law enforcement isn’t really even a Constitutional order of force either. But we have so many agencies now, it’s insane. Furthermore, I view police departments and especially federal agencies (both with arrest/non-arrest powers) as nothing more than private armies meant to keep The People held down and restrained so that the government/bureaucrats can continue to reek havoc on our Flag, Constitution and Land. Is that a crazy notion to think that way? No, not really. On it’s face it may seem so but all one has to do is look around, research our nation’s history and even research the history of mankind to know that this has happened in many many nations long before America showed up.
The Leftist Brigade has taken a strong hold of our nation today. It’s not by accident either. It’s all a design to hold us down so they can invent and create situations that will further hold us down to the point that eventually, we will be defenseless and armed with not even a shoelace. I find this not especially special, since other nations have done the same thing. What I find special about our current situation is that we are a Republic with a very specific set of decrees, protections & Laws set by our Constitution/Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and other unique documents which give the wisdom and strength for a great nation to thrive by, unlike any other nation to ever exist. ALL laws are supposed to conform to our Constitution, but as we all know, that is not what is happening. We have instead a nation full of plunderers and rapists (not necessarily sexual in nature as far as our government is concerned) of The People and our power.
See, were a Republic, which most forget, and The People are supposed to have The Power that our documents further provide for and protect us with. We sit here and keep twiddling our thumbs either by fear or ignorance. The broad powers of the federal and even our state governments is NOT what our Founding Father’s intended for us. We have allowed ourselves to become disillusioned with grandeur and spices to pacify us as they continue enacting more laws/regulations on The People and we are getting angrier too. NO government or military, no matter how powerful it is, can sustain forever by enslaving The People. I speak in reference to this nation. America was founded by men who were much wiser than the crop of politicians in power today. Most anyway. We are born with certain rights as humans that they saw as important and they further protected and ensured our way of life by introducing the most moving pieces of documents in our recent history. America was founded by patriots who wanted religious freedom and after some time, the colonists became angrier and angrier with the Britain and their laws and rules. Eventually war broke out and it raged on for a few years. American’s conquered the British and we have endured quite awhile, longer than most great nations would.
The government can’t do this forever and the time is revealing to us why this can’t be. The government thinks that it can barge into a citizens home without cause and take everything that man has without just cause. It happens all the time. Until The People wake up enough to start fighting back, agencies like the DHS/ATF will continue to march on with impunity and no fear of a citizen(s) fighting back. The 2nd Amendment provides us with documented ability to fight back and over-turn tyranny all over it’s ugly face. Until American patriot’s begin to do this and consistently, our government will continue to walk all over us without regard for our Constitution and our liberties as men/women. As for me and my house, God is my protector ultimately and my rifles are my tools to further protect my home and my family/life. My rifle is my best friend, my lover and part of my strength. To forsake my rifle willingly to tyranny is like me losing my rifle in combat. It won’t happen. I am thankful to have served as a grunt for this country and it further gives me my inner strength to defend liberty here at Home and to encourage other patriot’s/American’s to wake the hell up and fast.
Thanks for letting me post,
This is bull plop that such crap can occur here without serious repercussions to the asshats that perpetuated this. I sincerely hope the FFL that this happened to is compensated millions of dollars for this BS!
Good thing he didn’t have a pet dog. They would have shot it. Alot of raids seem to result in the death of a beloved pet.
To those who are blasting solely President Bush/Republicans for the USA PATRIOT Act, you might want to widen your verbal “field of fire” just a little bit … to include almost everyone in Washington when it passed … and for years before:
Source: Gore Blasts PATRIOT Act, Which Mirrors His 10-Year-Old Plan
Most of what was in the PATRIOT Act had been on the wish lists of federal law enforcement bureaucrats since J. Edgar Hoover was running the FBI. This was not a “response” to the 9/11 attacks. It was waiting on the shelf for something to happen that would “justify” it being passed into law.
(Just by way of full disclosure, I’m no longer with CNSNews.com.)
I’ve been re-searching the 9/11 incidents for as long as the day it happened and like it or not I am FULLY convinced that it was a very large conspiracy and Bush was as much aware of it coming as a number of others in the Fed. Gov.
Re-search it, listen to the “on site” reports and eye witnesses, the technical evaluation of the collapsing of the two towers not to mention the other 3 buildings that just happened to fall down the same way [yeah right]. I am ex-Army EOD and know explosives. These planes to my eye did NOT bring down the towers on their own. Simply impossible period.
Thanks for knowing science.
As the buildings didn’t collapse even as the NIST fantasy story said, were this a real “catastrophe” the scientific community would be studying this to a fare-the-well. Fully engulfed for 10 hours skyscrapers have only bent, they’ve never collapsed.
Not to mention the hundreds of eyewitnesses who talk about hearing timed explosions.
If people would just realize that a gun pointed at you is imminent threat… especially if they point a gun at you and you have a chl… retaliation is more than justified…
We live in a county where the sheriff would not go along with this. Says, in article the county swat team? The federal agents can’t (well, we can still hope, I suppose) proceed without the permission of the local sheriff. Sadly, sheriffs do not know the power they have and think they have to go along. We worked hard at election time to get an informed, second amendment constitutional sheriff elected and hopefully it will pay off. But hard to fight off the feds when they show up with helicopters and agents armed ‘bigger and better than the US military”.
I would be more than willing to donate to legal fees in a case like this. I am sure most members of this forum that could afford even a few dollars would as well. If this case were ruled on and set a precedent -it wouldn’t be so easy to do next time around. As much as I dislike Obama and his executive actions – the process of destroying our Bill of Rights and Constitution was started long before he showed up to finish it off.
I find it hard to believe our representatives wouldn’t take action to stop such lawlessness or that the NRA wouldn’t act against these kind of thugs. This seems to be such overkill that a lawsuit would be a must and that lawers would gladly represent this family for a per centage of possible award.
Can we get some clarification here? Are we talking about the ATF or the DHS? I was operating under the impression that they were two separate entities. Or are we just lumping all the GOV together now? Which department conducted the raid?
As I understand it the ATF work for the DHS now! I have not found anything to the contrary!
Nope, ATF is under the Dept. of Justice. DHS is its own department. The two Departments have VERY different roles. Border Patrol used to be under the Dept. of Justice, but when DHS was created, they were put under DHS. It would make sense for the ATF to be involved in this seizure, but not DHS, unless it involves smuggling to Mexico. Since we do not know the minute details of the FFL case, I think it is short-sighted to make sweeping generalizations and assumptions about all federal LEOs or LEOs in general.
I pray for justice for you and to them. One concern is their confiscation of financial accounts. This article did not mention it, so I assume it did not occur.
How would any ordinary honest citizen predict or defend against such an attack. Don’t see much difference whether this was DHS or a criminal gang. God forbid this keeps happening, I pray for due process of law and integrity.
On a related topic, this raid sounds similar to the raid on Gibson Guitar, they came in armed, stole $ 1M of Gibson’s wood, filed no charges, and extorted Gibson to have the wood milled in foreign country.
RF or FFL,
Please update with PayPal account for us to donate to first chance you get.
“When people fear the government, there is tyranny. When government fears the people, there is liberty.” Consider Patrick Henry’s eternal question…
The first step would be to find out all the personal details of the “agent” who swore out the warrant. I’ll leave the next several to your imaginations.
They recently closed down a NY Dealer and friend by using the following set up. The send a women agent in with a beat up old M-2 carbine (Select fire not obvious) and difficult to identify it as an M-2. He bought it on consignement for 175 dollars. withing 90 minutes, they swooped down on his shop, his home and his vacation home, took over 1 million dollars in inventory (which they later claim was only 200,000) some of the guns belonged to other family members. He wound up having to plead out on a felony charge and will have to do a year in jail. DEALERS AND COLLECTORS: DO NOT TAKE ANY GUNS THAT YOU HAVE NOT CHECKED, AND ESPECIALLY M-1 CARBINES, THAT WILL GIVE THEM ALL THEY NEED TO RAID YOU!! PLEASE!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!
The irony is every conspiracy website online says the same things “the reason is people are stupid” and “everyone should think for themselves”. But the reality is, most people are thinking for themselves – we just don’t buy into this never ending conspiracy theory that the governments of the world are out to get us. I love the internet but if there is one thing I could have done without, its these morons who claim “think for yourself” all the while telling you why thinking for yourself is equivalent to thinking the same things they think.
I barely got into this article before I started questioning the reality of it all. First of all make up your mind, was it ATF who did the raid, was it homeland security, was it county or was it state? You seem to mix all of them into one melting pot.
Second has anyone here ever actually been searched? How about strip searched? Full cavity search perhaps? Okay okay its very unlikely…. but how many have ever been in handcuffs? Well it seems NO ONE posting on this article has…. Well I have had all of these things happen to me. You know what I know for a fact?
I know this makes NO SENSE….
If you comply, even at gun point, are frisked, hands cuffed behind you, and stuck in the back seat of a police car….. this doesn’t result in bleeding.
Now even if this were true…. at this stage you must have lost all faith in our system… so why try to call a lawyer? In fact he wasn’t going to jail at all or he wouldn’t have been making phone calls from a neighbors…. so why a lawyer? Personally I would have been calling the press…. let them try to tell someone with a press pass “sorry you can’t come in”.
See nothing about this case makes sense.
Seems to me closing the article with the above statement, makes you a hypocrite. What was in the affidavit? You have given us nothing but your speculation of what was in it – agent lied repeatedly, told half-truths, speculated about possible violations, and related his ‘suspicions’ with no basis in fact. Where is the evidence that this is remotely the truth. Where is YOUR basis. What exactly was said in that affidavit that leads you to believe its all lies? It seems to me you are whining about speculations, while making speculations yourself.
I will chalk this up to “more conspiracy theorists bent on turning the world into an anarchist state.
“You seem to mix all of them into one melting pot. ” Yes, that’s exactly right. Homeland Security, with ATF mixed in…. County Sheriff Swat Team, local police, state patrol, state tax people. Yep, one big melting pot.
“this doesn’t result in bleeding. ” It damn sure can – and did – when the cuffs are too tight.
“so why try to call a lawyer?” Because no one else will try to help you keep your assets that they’re seizing and piling into their vans – and no one else can prevent your interrogation by the Feds. Call the press? Ha! All they want to do is report on all your “black rifles”.
Affidavit info will be released when the lawyers say so.
Conspiracy theory? Right…. Until it happens to you.
we’ve been in a police-state since the day BO was first elected just now it has become very active … we will be fighting for our very lives my best guess 24 months or there about … BO’s marxists regime is in the making for a strong grab for power soon the scum just needs a few more months to put it all together. The USA is falling, we are falling, and I see “no power[s]” that are willing to stop it. We the people will have to one day but it’ll be brute force. My guns are buried in locations that the BO scum gangsters will not be able to find along with all the ammo and re-loading components as far as I’m concerned … I’m ready I am a combat trained Vietnam Veteran and I and those with me will NOT be easy to roll over no matter what I at least will fight back! Molon Labe Obama and the hoo’ ya rode in on!
If after this , the Poland water raid , the Gibson guitar raids , The raw milk farmer , the herbal gardener and a dozen other such actions from our government hasn’t clued you in that the federal government and many state governments aren’t out of control and need brought down to size then I can only feel sorry for the vastness of your ignorance and you obviously have no business voting for anyone , because you are a moron .
Are you kidding me? I’ll take Bush and the Republicans over Obama and the Democrats any day and twice on Sundays. If they ever come for our guns it will be Democrats who order it, like they are trying to do right now!
may i suggest
You assume at some point this will happen to you, so you are not stunned into submission when it does, have a plan.
Photograph the rooms in your house and inventory “for insurance purposes” back this onto a flash drives and ask friends family to hold for you. Keep your computer backed up and your records off site, and learn how to encrypt it, take online security seriously. Dont talk about what you have.
Find a good lawyer before hand, have his number and that of all local state and msm, numbers give this list to friends and tell them if they get a call from you to work their way down the list, offer to hold a list for them, also they should post online at all our favourite sites.
If they can get there and form a crowd of neighbours and citizens, people will come out if they are curious, they should film and tweet and ask questions.
We need to know how much this is happening.
Im sure people can add ideas, we all need a plan
Best thing to do is to make yourself as “small” as possible. To many talk about what they have. To many buy with credit cards. Cash, unless I am wrong, is not traceable. Limit quantities, at least make it look like you have very little that can draw attention.
It was intended to mean well, maybe, but is not going well. The powerful are apparently scared that the people will get the spirit of 1776, and that has the establishment worried, a lot.
A better bet, low profile, stay out of sight.
If they weren’t so goddamned power hungry a nd corrupt , they wouldn’t have to worry about a peasant uprising. I saw an ad for a demonstration calling for the folks to bring torches and pitchforks. Id love to see that one. Not only would it make a grand point but it would be hillarious also. I agree that if you are stockpiling on a credit card they are more likely to see it but thats just one more right we have lost if our purchases are all subject to seacrh and seizure because the big greedy pussies are scared. Articles like this just leave me with smoke boiling out of my ears. A bogus tax issue Id bet anything just as an excuse. Whats sick about it is that the people won’t know their in chains until it is already too late.
Is this the fact behind the story: http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/Federal-agents-seize-1-500-firearms-from-home/-/9153728/18379438/-/lawiskz/-/index.html
I have a couple comments here. I read the blog post here and have a little bit of a problem with it. You see, after more than a half century’s experience at reading news stories and being a bit of a history fan I view things with a grain of salt. I like some plain old facts and corroboration with the story I read.
Let me start off saying I do NOT I approve of the Patriot act, BATFE excesses or other alphabet agency misdeeds in the least.
Now in regards to this story, and I use the term “story” on purpose here I have a few questions.
First, Why no names? After all, since the homeland security (rather amorphous name there since it covers multiple agencies and I doubt ALL of them were involved) already had multiple warrants they served, they already know the name of the individual whose property was searched. Who is the author protecting here? An unnamed reader? Really???? I would think given the circumstances the feds already know the guys name. Why conceal it from folks who might be sympathetic to his plight unless it might not all be factual as presented of course.
Secondly, why no links at all to any other source of information? Yeah I know some folks put up a link to a NM news station story that has similarities. Why didn’t the author provide a link to that info? Is it in fact the same situation?
Third there are a LOT of rather negative comments in the article that seem to be designed to be inflammatory rather than informative. If you have a GOOD story, based on real facts why not let it speak for itself without the hyperbole? The reader is certainly capable of forming an opinion based on the facts of the story rather than the colorful descriptive terms used. That is unless it is considered good for embellishment if it serves the conservative agenda vs the liberal agenda. Is not over zealousness in excess as bad on both sides of the political spectrum? Does it not make the conservative just as bad as the zealous liberal in that regard? Isn’t it better to be based on fact and not innuendo and demagoguery?
I know this is a blog, not a news service. That does not mean I should not expect rational discourse and factual information. In fact a blog, being independent, could possibly be more factual than a slanted news service. Being a slanted blog however does not lead credence to the information provided any more than a slanted reporter does to the main stream media. Please, please, give me the facts, back them up with sources that can be independently verified. I’ll make my own opinion thank you.
If it must start,
with your neighbors help to wake up the rest of America,
But remember no matter what the media says the truth will be the opposite
This website can ruin your life forever if you are ever arrested for anything you will be put on this criminal list including low end traffic violations with all your personal informatiion even if you are not a criminal. Instant Checkmate should not be allowed to make money off inocent people and low end misdemeanors that paid their debt to soceity
well i find this hard to believe as i know a person in red rock , texas who has applied for a FFL li. ATF was doing the investigation , they knew the guy was selling guns and not giving the people their money , had commited fraud with several people , he hasnt gotten the licence, but they never took any actions against him for taking money and not delivering the merchandise says its a civil matter ! so hard to believe they went this far out of their way . not that i dont think this happened.
I am saddened by the terrorist actions of the DHS and the corrupt sherrif’s department. The fact is…..the RULE of LAW has been broken for quite some time, now.
The American people have a proven fraud and traitor as their “president.” Not only is Obama NOT a natural-born citizen (as designated in the law of the land), he is also using a fraudulent social security card. The social security number he used on his income tax return was originally given to a German immigrant who was born in 1890. That immigrant migrated here, got his citizenship WITH a social security number, then died without having collected any of the benifits.
Did Obama’s grandmother work for the social security administration in Honolulu? Did Obama’s grandmother simply steal the dead man’s file?
Obama has put forth over 900 executive orders thus far. To my knowledge, and according to their OWN website…Whitehouse.gov…..138 of these have come to fruition. Is Obama our new dictator? May he govern by way of “executive order?” Does the U.S. Constitution leave room for governing WITHOUT the consent of it’s people? Are the House AND the Senate now obsolete?
The fact is, ever since the assassination of J.F.K., America has been duped into believing lie after lie after lie. The media (controlled by G.E., George Sorros, and other “one world” elitists) have led a successful propaganda campaign.
What to do? You see…..Satan will have his day. There WILL be a one world government. You WILL NOT be able to buy, sell or trade without the mark of the beast. One can, however, make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life. The Holy Spirit will protect you. The Holy Spirit will provide for you.
That doesn’t mean that you won’t be persecuted….but your life wll have dimension and purpose. This life we now have is the SHORTEST thing we will EVER do. Play the “long” game. Play for eternity.
Thank you for allowing me to express my views.
David A. Perkins
You want to know what can be done? More people start getting off their couches, TV, video games and computers and start arming themselves. A revolution is definitely coming in the next 50 years or so, and by then we will hopefully be strong enough to stand up and fight for our rights of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. In a situation like this, the Second Amendment brings up “militias” for a reason. If this place had a local militia with good and fast sources of communication and info, the militia would have surrounded the agents, or in this case I would call them nothing but enemies on the other side of the battlefield, and force them to show the true facts before any more steps are taken, and since this was all a fraud… who knows what might have happened but for sure the “victim” of the agents would have most likely been in 90% better shape then this outcome.
At the current rate of pussification of men in this country, in 50 years, arms will no longer exist in the hands of the people!
Pay very close attention…the last paragraph of this blog post describes perfectly the entire blog post itself.
“lied repeatedly, told half-truths, speculated about possible violations, and related his ‘suspicions’ with no basis in fact” <– Truth is stranger than fiction.
please tell me you are one of the sane ones who thinks this story is quarter truth at best
The Supreme Court ruled in Bailey v. U.S., 11-770 that you can not be detained miles from your house when they are searching your home with a warrant. This is just one of many rights the ATF and Home land security violated. Robert Adams I hope you turn out to be David and slay this Goliath
Any update on this story?
Bob Adams has still not been charged. He’s waiting for the proverbial other shoe to drop. Updates as we get them.
Although I’m sure MY level of outrage here is far lower than his, I still find it infuriating that after “years” of investigation they have not proffered any charges. You’d think that even the incompetents running DHS or ATF would have been able to find a charge by this time. Unless, of course the whole point was to take all the guns away and smear the guy in the press but never actually prosecute. Who put this TFH on my head?!!
So how early was all of this supposed to have started? By my reckoning, the person was supposed to have rented the motel room at 9A.M.; so going to the doctor, returning, getting stopped, frisked and questioned by the feds, your house ransacked and searched your wife also searched frisked and questioned was all supposed to have happened before mid-morning? What kind of doctor holds appointments that early? What motel takes check-ins before checkout time (usually 11 or 12). Even rudimentary critical thinking blows this story out of the water. It’s too bad for people that enjoy their 2nd amendment rights that the most vocal anti gun control parties are people gullible enough to eat stories like this up.
Jay: Maybe you should read the article again. It doesn’t say anything about renting the motel room at 9am – rather it says “Hours later, . . . you leave and arrange a motel for the night.” It doesn’t say an appointment with a doctor – it says doctor’s office – where a medical lab can be open for walk-ins at 7 am. It doesn’t say anything about the wife being searched, frisked or questioned. It doesn’t say everything happened by mid-morning – it said 9 PM – 12 hours later. Rudimentary critical thinking requires accurate reading…..
Later, about 9PM (12 hours later), you phone your house and an agent answers, then advises you they’re about to leave. This quote implies the hotel was rented at 9 am, at the earliest. And you’re saying a swat team searches and ransacks a house without at least frisking the wife who was just in the house, before sitting her in the front seat of a police car? And the “hours later” quote further illustrates my point. Be realistic here. This story is a gross exaggeration at best. I re-read the entire story, I suggest you do the same Sam, but this time, utilize some critical thinking.
Give it a rest, Jay. The quote implies nothing of the kind. I was there….. You weren’t. 9pm was 12 hours after the raid started. The motel was not rented at 9am and the wife was not searched, nor was she in a police car. The account is precisely accurate even if it’s clear the author is not a professional writer.
A very large number of Doctor’s appointments are very early in the morning.
I just spent most of yesterday at UCLA Medical Center, starting with an 8:30 appointment, which means we had to leave the house at 6:30 to be on time.
Many medical specialties mostly or only have appointments in the morning. I’d say that between my wife and I, 75% of medical appointments are for times before 10 am.
It is very difficult to take seriously any author of a website who makes numerous spelling and grammatical errors. Do not present yourself as a journalist or even an authority if you can’t eliminate the emotion from your rhetoric. Reading articles full of drivel ends with the first epithet against authority. It’s great to disagree, do it intelligently. Go to school, learn to write or go home.
I thought for sure this was going to be a spambot and you were going to have a link attached to your name. Where are the numerous spelling errors? I found “helocopter.” Anything else?
And so Ken, just what did it cost you to subscribe to this blog? Oh, yes, that’s right it doesn’t cost anything. What are you complaining about? Try adding something constructive to the discussion or just stay away moron!
Does anyone still doubt this is happening? Here’s a couple of other incidents:
Read about the ATF raid and indictment of Phil Ciotti. Mr. Ciotti wasn’t charged with any crime until 21 months after his guns were seized:
Read about Kristopher Gasior’s visit by Homeland Security at this link:
People still doubt because they aren’t fools. You’re follow up articles seem to be about a guy who looted a captured polish rifle from the Nazis and was upset when Poland wanted it back, and someone who should have been charged earlier. So what’s the argument here? Stealing is okay during war? Importing weapons without any sort of documentation is okay? Or people committing crimes involving gun regulations shouldn’t be charged? Just because you’re pissed off isn’t enough to be right.
Here we go with the ‘rudimentary critical thinking” thing again….
The article referred to a guy who legitimately owned a WWII war relic which was seized by Homeland Security without due process on an unsubstantiated claim by a Polish government official. This should be of major concern for anyone who owns a WWII war relic – even with the ‘capture’ papers.
And importing weapons without documentation is perfectly ok – provided they are antiques.
Once a post-1898 gun has been imported (legitimately), there has never been a need to keep reams of documents proving each one was legitimately acquired overseas and imported. Neither the importers, nor the distributors, nor the dealers provide nor maintain that level of documentation. Certainly individual owners have never before been required to keep that level of documentation.
People doubt because they want to doubt.
From another forum: Here is an interesting quote from another guy who was there. “…. believe it or not; unlike in the movies, the SUBJECT’s house was probably in better condition after Agents left, than when they walked in.”
Contrast that to the owner’s statement, “The house is trashed – every room.” “One antique shotgun lies broken on the floor. Papers are strewn everywhere. Once they looked at it, and didn’t want it, they just tossed it aside. Piles of paper.”
The agent’s statement is false. The owner’s statement is accurate.
Well I know how he feels.
December 14 TTAG blog post
If no charges are filed, what basis do they have for confiscating anything? The warrant should have listed what they were looking for.
The Department of Homeland Security means in Romanian Departamenul Securitatii Statului, more accurate the body that deals with political repression during dictator Ceausescu in Romania. The same name, the same habits.
Government is a criminal enterprise no different than the Mafia. They lie, cheat and steal like any other gang. It is all about power mad freakers controlling the lives of others and taking the fruits of their labors. That is just the way the world is.
A follow-up to this 5+ year old story would be more appropriate. What happened to the dude, did he get his guns back, did he go to jail, did he sue the government? No?
Got his guns back. Agent Ortiz lost his job. Won his civil suit. Didn’t make up for the pain they caused him and his family. Theresa Duran the incompetent ATF agent, and Frank Ortiz, the lying piece of shit, falsified the warrant application. Their names need to be known. They are the problem.
Make up your mind–are they “jackbooted thugs” or jackbooted thugs?
Follow up please?
This type of thing is why I have the majority of my defenses off-site in multiple locations. They will get some, and maybe even most of, but never all my personal defenses.