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Photos were released yesterday of two rifles found on the floor of Stephen Paddock’s 32nd floor Mandalay Bay hotel room. One of which was equipped with a bump fire stock which simulates full-auto fire. Now the ATF has confirmed that among the 23 guns found in the room, a dozen of them had been fitted with bump fire stocks.


Twelve bump fire stocks were found on firearms recovered from Paddock’s hotel room, said Jill Snyder, the special agent in charge of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ San Francisco field office.

Snyder said authorities are still determining which firearms were used in the shooting.

The ATF had determined that bump fire stocks are legal firearm accessories for semi-automatic rifles about six years ago and they’ve been widely available from various manufacturers ever since.

In the wake of the Las Vegas massacre and the new national attention on what once were, as our own Nick Leghorn called them, gimmicky range toys, could the ATF’s opinion on the legality of bump fire stocks change in the days and weeks ahead? As the Magic 8-Ball divines…

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  1. At this point, I don’t have much of a problem letting them have the bump-fires.

    Unfortunately, that won’t be enough for them, next time around, they’ll just want more.

    It’s what they do.

    It’s ALL they do!

    So, we give them *nothing*…

    EDIT – On second thought, I’ll trade them bump-fires for de-regulating suppressors and ending the Hughes amendment…

    • I’ll let them trade their jobs for their homes and peace and quiet while they wait for JESUS to come back.

    • I have a problem giving them anything. Don’t bend, don’t flex, give them nothing. Once you give them a single thing, they’re coming back for everything, even if they have to take it piece by piece. We can’t afford to give a single inch here.

    • I for one would like to have the entire cake back.

      We’ve been giving incremental bits of our rights since 1934 and I’m 100% done.

      They get nothing else without giving something back. I’ll trade bumpfire stocks for national reciprocity and/or NFA reform. Nothing less. The time of giving more than we get back is over.

      • Agree 100%. Though, might this be something the ATF could do without legislation? If not legally, at least in practice?

    • I don’t own a bump fire, nor would I ever, but I am vehemently opposed to banning them because it follows the same line of flawed reasoning that brought us every other piece of legislation that was based around specific design features.

      If the gun community condones a ban on slide fire stocks, we’re condoning the NFA, AWB, etc. The gun community has given up more than enough ground over the years, and when we consider that the [painfully obvious] ultimate goal of the Bloombergs and Feinsteins of the world is complete disarmament, then we have no reason to give up anything.

    • I don’t think it will be a matter of ‘letting them have’ the bump fires. I expect the ATf to take those away, along with other devices that allow for faster semi-auto fire. For example, the trigger that fires on the pull and reset. Because the first thing the media pointed to in the Las Vegas shooting was the ‘machine gun’ like rate of fire. Hopefully, Trump won’t allow them to go any further, but who knows what he may do when the political heat turns up and his ‘friends’ Schumer and Pelosi start whispering in his ear. One thing I know for certain – most of the RINOS (Ryan &Co.) are ready to cave on gun rights today.

    • I don’t care for bump stocks either, but it would not have any real effect since you can 3d print one, so they would come back for more, emboldened. Also, if they go for bump stocks they will go for trigger cranks, also not a biggie for me, but they will also pull Gatling guns into it and with a multiyear Gatling Gun project in the garage unfinished, I would be really pissed. The problem is that this asshat was a millionaire and if bumpstocks were not available, he would have just bought a real machine gun or converted a gun, so there is no preventing someone like him. The issue is the next asshat is going to follow his pattern and cheap bumpstocks on the internet will make it easy. Eventually someone is going to go back to the McVeigh model and they will figure out that it isn’t a gun problem. Sounds like the asshat of the day almost went that way based on trace evidence in his vehicle.

    • Same problem tho. There’s no exchanges with the gun ban crowd, it’s always give give give.
      Even when you want talk about the underlying issues of terrorism or mental health care, they demand gun legislation first. Which makes it pointless to offer even the meaningless things.

      I’d have no issue trading bump fire stocks for suppressors or sbr, but there’s too much risk that they’ll just screw us on the deal. Especially with the likes of Paul Ryan doing the negotiation.

    • EDIT – On second thought, I’ll trade them bump-fires for de-regulating suppressors and ending the Hughes amendment

      Or, just suppressors and reciprocity. I’d be cool with that and fuck Paul Ryan.

  2. Bump fire stocks will be banned by the end of the month, I guarantee it.

    I had never really worried about them being banned because I didn’t take them seriously as a viable tool for a combat room. I guess I was wrong..

    • You were right to start with. Those things are only useful against a large target that can’t shoot back or as a range toy.

    • The next question is what will they do when people just bumpfire with their shoulder? Toss a short and light trigger on an AR and it’s very doable without a special stock. I’ve seen people do it with AKs.

      • Yep.

        That’s why in another article I asked if we should register human hands or outlaw them entirely and begin the mandatory confiscation.

        The thing is, from his vantage point high above, and a trapped ‘pen’ full of terrorized prey below, in the 70 minutes it took them to breach the door, a shooter with a single-shot bolt action hunting rifle like grandpa’s, he *still* could have slaughtered 50+ people.

        I still believe the Leftists would like nothing more (besides outright confiscation of all citizen guns) to limit the 2A to single-shot bolt action rifles.

        The bad news for them is, they would still be a fearsome weapon to confront on the battlefield of ‘Civil War 2.0’. With just grandpa’s hunting rifle, we could defeat the US military. It would be costly of life, but it could be done…

        Evil is real…

    • You weren’t wrong necessarily. In this recording:
      the burst from 2:17-2:28 is certainly not a bumpfire device, too many rounds and too steady a fire rate. Sure sounds like a belt fed weapon to me.
      Better watch it fast. The original I watched 6 hours ago has already been taken down. I had to search and find it again as a repost. If this one vanishes too, do a search for: “cab driver footage mandaly bay”.

    • It’s all over multiple news outlets, citing the ATF.

      For example, CNN (yeah, I know) says:

      Twelve bump fire stocks were found on firearms recovered from Paddock’s hotel room, said Jill Snyder, the special agent in charge of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ San Francisco field office.

  3. Push back should be 1000%.

    It’s the same thing as with the 1st Amendment. It doesn’t matter how many aholes abuse their rights, your rights are not diminished, and no one should claim that they are. The right to Keep And Bear Arms is there to protect you from the very people who claim THAT YOU CAN NO LONGER HAVE THAT RIGHT.

    • I think in this day and age (ya know with drones, and Satellites that can see when your using your rest room in your home etc….., Do die hard gun owners/ lovers really think they would stand any chance against “a tyrannical government” armed with much higher/ deadly and billion dollar honed technology, ENGINEERED FOR BUNKER BUSTING AND KILLING GUERRILLA WARRIORS… (say an NRA fanatic locked in his own house or say… the Michigan Militia could unquestionably be decimated in mins/ a day). To say we all have a right to firearms to defend ourselves against “the powers that be/ a tyrannical government” is a completely defunct statement. Wake up, the firearm was invented in the 10th-12th century…. we’re in the 21st century. Infantry hardly holds a place in modern warfare and that should be kind of an indication..? You fight the authorities and “the tyrannical government” with rifles, handguns and pipe bombs. Let me know what you think of their bullet proof APC, remote controlled .50 cal and bomb bots. I mean I get it, the gun is your only way of thinking your safe but….. WAKE UP… People want guns to defend themselves against themselves.. .THATS IT. What, are gun owners all going to unite and…… what? Turn the country into a Terminator style war zone without robots…. Wow this country is scary.

      • Morbid visions of tanks rolling in or artillery blasting away or carpet bombing of entire cities, are just fantasy. We don’t even pound our enemies overseas like that nowadays. No wonder they’re so resilient and never quite defeated.

        If there ever were a Civil War II of sorts, it would be very short and limited to some high profile urban resistance action. This society cannot sustain a prolonged war or insurrection. Millions upon millions of noncombatants would die from starvation, lack of medicine, waterborne illnesses, accidents, and so forth.

        This country is far too fragile to host a wat stateside without the entire civilization collapsing and there being nothing left to claim victory over.

      • That’s the thinking of the British government, from about ~ nearly 230 years ago.

        You sound like you think we’re up against the Terminator or something. We are governed by “men” those men are your fing stupid neighbors who needed a job. They all sleep somewhere, an you can easily f up enough sh_t of EVERYONES to make it really expensive proposition.

        We have sh_t asses in our government right now that ARE PRESSING FOR IT.

        Why? Because they are MF POS Globalists GETTING PAID TO DO SO AND hoping to pick up some of the spoils after. But upending our government would only open the books on the rest of the world, and there’s a lotta hell that could get dished out in short order.

        You also sound as though you think it’s only now being considered. That is WHOLLY WRONG.

        “Let us suppose a small State which is involved in a contest with a very superior power, and forsees that with each year its position will become worse: should it not, if War is inevitable, make use of the time when its situation is furthest from the worst? Then it must attack, not because the attack in itself ensures any advantages- it will rather increase the disparity of Forces- but because this State is under the necessity of either bringing the matter completely
        to an issue before the worst time arrives, or of gaining at least in the meantime some advantages which it may hereafter turn to account. This theory cannot appear absurd. But if this small State is quite certain that the enemy will advance against it, then, certainly, it can and may make use of the defensive against its enemy to procure a first advantage; there is then at any rate no danger of losing time. If , again, we suppose a small State engaged in
        War with a greater, and that the future has no influence on their decisions, still, if the small State is politically the assailant, we demand of it also that it should go forward to its object.
        If it has had the audacity to propose to itself a positive end in the face of superior numbers, then it must also act, that is, attach the foe, if the latter does not save it the trouble. Waiting would be an absurdity; unless at the moment of execution it has altered its political resolution, a case which very frequently occurs, and contributes in no small degree to give Wars an indefinite character.” (Clausewitz [Rappaport Translation], “On War” page 398)”

      • If the government ever does try to use its war machine on its own citizens, we won’t waste time shooting at the armor or the drones. We know where the decision-makers and their flunkies live.

      • “Do die hard gun owners/ lovers really think they would stand any chance against “a tyrannical government” armed with much higher/ deadly and billion dollar honed technology,…”

        D – The answer to that is, *YES*.

        Do you *seriously* think the line troops will just open fire and murder their neighbors and friends?

        How will the military be able to sustain combat against the citizens when the citizens will cut their electric power? High-tension powerlines will be the first thing cut by rifle fire when conflict breaks out. Their generators may last a month or so, what will they do when their food runs out? There will be no trucks voluntarily delivering food.

        You bet your ass we would win, ‘D’. We would be in it for the long haul. The military will be trapped in their bases to starve.

        And when the military is tamed, we *will* be coming after the likes of *YOU*.

        A little saying from the first revolutionary war for you to contemplate, ‘D’ – “The ‘Tree of Liberty’ needs to be watered with the blood of tyrants from time to time”.

        Get it?

  4. Ban bumpfire stocks and the psychopaths will install lightning links or whatever. Like everything else, bans don’t keep the criminals from finding a way to do it anyway.

  5. ….and then binary triggers, etc. Once the ball starts rolling down hill, it’s hard to stop it. I say fight to keep everything possible legal.

  6. I absolutely agree with the slippery slope analogy. But purely politically if we throw the Dems this bone -regulate bump stocks like other registry items – to buy some time for POTUS to pad the Federal judiciary, get an additional 2A Supreme appointed, and give a little cover to pro 2A candidates for the midterm elections, it mght be worth it. Then when the timing is better we can start to use a more 2A court system to roll back some of these ridiculous infringements.

    • “Throw them a bone” and they’ll come back for the whole leg. Give them nothing! Don’t give an inch

    • The trouble is that it will probably wind up being phrased in a way so as to allow for future infringement in the future. One can imagine it affecting standard collapsible stocks if they refer to “A stock that slides back and forth along the buffer tube” or something similar.

      Remember AR pistols and how the ATF tried to use them to ban M855 surplus as “armor-piercing ammunition”?

      In principle, I think bumpfire stocks are a dumb way to waste money and ammo that puts already-embattled outdoor ranges at risk of liability suits and that could be used for just as much fun with in less silly gun-related endeavors, but I’m loath to give ATF more buttons to play with next time the dems have power.

  7. The problem is that non-gun people are now aware that bump stocks exist. Before, no one cared because no one had ever used an AR so equipped to kill anyone (at least that I could find). There is no way they are going to survive now that they were used in LV.

    It doesn’t even take legislative action to handle it. All the ATF has to do is administratively reverse their prior approval, at least initially. The legislative action needed – I think – would be to redefine what constitutes a machine gun, but that would not be a hard sell now.

    I could care less about bump stocks, but it is painful as hell that we are going to lose this one because it opens the door to possible legislation on semi-auto rifles, number of guns owned, mag capacity, etc. Damn, damn, damn – we were right at the point where most of the leftist gun control groups were shrinking, disabled, and increasingly irrelevant.

    • “it opens the door to possible legislation on semi-auto rifles”

      Yeah, especially when people are now likely Googling “bump fire AR-15” and realizing, to their horror, that you can do it with rubber bands, belt loops, or just your hands. The bump-fire stock just makes it easier.

      • Been thinking this is the path they will take myself-The only way to prevent the horrors of bump firing is to ban semi-auto. Someone will propose it, but it won’t happen. The real risk is the slippery slope of banning bump fire stocks.

  8. They are going to go after binary triggers too people! Don’t give up bump fire without a fight!

  9. It’s not as cut and dry as that. The ATF rules still need someone in the EB to sign off on them. And whomever that is works for Donald Trump. Trump can’t waffle on gun control otherwise, as Bannon said, the base will go nuclear. Trump dearly wants to be a 2-term president. He won’t if he walks back on his pro-gun stance, even a bit.

    • Doubtful he’ll lose much more of his base considering he’s waffled on nearly everything he campaigned on and they’re still on board.

      • I don’t know that they’re still on board. Neither do you. The polls look bad, after all. We’ll have to wait until the 2018 midterms to know for sure. My guess, we retain both houses, but with even slimmer majorities and with a more RINO orientation. Trump’s a lame duck, even if he does manage to get re-elected, himself.

        • His approval ratings haven’t changed much since inauguration. Surely as I can predict the sun will rise tomorrow, I can also predict that the Trump-humpers will still be humping tomorrow.

        • Yes. Those same polls that said Drumpf wouldn’t get the nomination, wouldn’t have a way to get 270 electoral votes, and that Shillary-humpers would win and get their Wall Street meat puppet into the White House.

  10. I am willing to bet the Republicans in order to save face on the gun debate going on now will fast track a complete ban on bump fire stocks thinking it will cool the gun debate but in reality it will be like throwing a bloody piece of meat into a swirling school of hunger sharks. I think the NRA found out that years ago when they tried to compromise with some of the radical gun banners of the day but the Republicans are not noted for having any grey matter between their ears. Their screw up on health care proved that beyond all doubt

    • Your bets are meaningless and your rank speculation unfounded in reality. The DemoKKKrats found that out the hard way with the Brady Bill, and they’re the ones who are actually not known for having any grey matter between their ears. Plus, it’s their screw-ups on literally everything — including health care — which proved that beyond all doubt. Even yours, whether you admit it or not.

  11. The entire point of Paddock’s shooting spree is glaringly clear.

    1. Paddock wanted to deprive those who disagreed with him politically of their very lives.

    2. Paddock calculated that an act this horrific would have a political tipping point effect, depriving those with whom he disagreed politically of the right to bear arms and eventually the right to free speech, which is ultimately underpinned by the 2nd Amendment.

    We should not give a fraction of a millimeter on this. Our rights under the US Constitution are not negotiable.

    • You are correct. Here in Canada, we do not have free speech, and we do not have anything to defend our (lost) rights with.

      We do have “hate laws” and a new law to combat “islamophobia” being talked about in our media, in the same week as our Prime Minister is saying we need to tighten up our gun laws. It never, ever, ends. On a clear day, I can “almost” see the border between us, and freedom (Montana/Alberta).

  12. How did this guy get 23 rifles into his hotel room without anyone noticing? Did he break them all down? Still, that would take up a lot of space, even if he just crammed them all on top of each other in large suitcases. Plus, he had a bunch of video equipment, right? Somebody had to wonder about this guy & all his luggage. Or maybe not, this is the 21st century after all.

    I think if somebody hated guns, the gun culture, and the 2A to the point that they were willing to do absolutely anything to get guns outlawed in the US, that shooting up a large concert (or any other outdoor event) would be the best way to go about it. What better to motivate the politicians & citizens alike? And, just to add insult to injury, shooting up a crowd that is most likely conservative and pro-2A would be a bonus for this hater. This whole thing seems contrived to me, and I’m really not one to think “conspiracy” when these sorts of things happen. But there are too many things about this event that do not add up.

    I’m sure you’ve all seen the various videos popping up on social media (which I have sworn off for the foreseeable future) that appear to show gunfire coming from the 4th floor, and another window smashed out a few doors down from Paddock’s room on the 32nd floor. And today I saw some headline about Paddock wiring $100,000 to the Philippines a few days ago. Lots of questions. No good answers, other than keep your powder dry & fight for our rights, I guess.

    • “How did this guy get 23 rifles into his hotel room without anyone noticing?”

      Vacationers, or a particular slice of business travelers think everybody staying in hotels is just like them. Two bags, on a one-week trip where you travel mostly to travel. A lot of it isn’t like that.

      Hotels accommodate a fair number of people doing trade shows, performers, and sometimes off-site business. The people running that ridiculous team building workshop gotta stay somewhere. They all carry boxes, cases, or other gear. Hotels also serve as staging for further adventures: the bike tour across the country, hiking South America to find yourself, or even heading out for the big guided hunt, or whatever.

      A word at check-in clues the management in; they’ll usually ask if you need help moving your stuff. It’s good for the staff: people working this way are good tippers. As you are in and out schlepping your stuff, you nod at the staff, who get it if they’ve been around for a while. Yes, they pay attention to these things: there’s liability depending on what you’re doing. But they do shifts, and don’t keep an in-and-out log over time.

      LV-guy got piles of stuff up to his suite by schlepping piles of stuff up to his suite.


      Let’s ban, register, search, license, approve, scrutinize (centrally) weird people schlepping “stuff” through hotels. Like … maybe 20% of their business; people just living their lives, doing nothing wrong.

      One weekend some years back I catered a couple colleagues’ wedding (about 40-ish people) & took a couple extra days to play tourist as well. I didn’t carry all the catering gear, but the stuff that’s hard to find, that makes the kitchen work takes a couple crates. Plus any working cook has their own knife roll. (The knife roll was its own discussion about getting there on the plane.)

      Let’s make people file with the feds for that, or anything like it.

  13. The number of weapons still baffles me. They were not all going to jam for good and/or overheat, were they? He couldn’t possibly count on using all of them? It almost looks as if he didn’t know how to swap empty magazines for full ones…. Bringing a rifle, a backup rifle and 21 other backup rifles is just strange.

    My condolences to the families who lost the members, I hope this will not echo too much in our Czech lands….

    • As MDH said above and I said on another page, the muderer’s actions were intended to make a statement. Why almost 20 guns when 2 or 3 would do, and having a dozen fitted with bump-fire stocks? To make a social and political statement.

  14. If the Democrats in Congress want to outlaw something we need to demand something significant in return. If we let them have bumpfire stocks then the legislation needs to pull silencers off the NFA and we get National Reciprocity both. Demand asymmetrical negotiation from Republicans, never give up anything for a Democrat promise since their word is worth nothing.

  15. Banning them won’t do anything. They’re super easy to make with a little redneck engineering.

    Also, they would have to ban every rifle in America to stop something like this. He could have done the same thing by taking a lever action and putting a screw in the trigger guard like Chuck Connors in The Rifleman. You can also speed load lever actions through the loading gate with a plastic tube and a wooden dowel. Cowboy acion shooters do that all the time to quickly reload between rounds.

    • Well eliminating the 2nd amendment and taking away all the guns is their long term goal. They’re just trying to take it a small piece at a time. Given them even a scrap is a bad idea. On the other hand, if we can get something good in exchange for it like suppressors off the NFA and some other adjustments it might well be worth losing bump stocks.

    • Also, they would have to ban every rifle in America to stop something like this.

      That’s exactly what they want to do.

  16. Regulating a plastic floating half circle is about as meaningful as regulating a folded aluminum box or a length of tube.
    Anti’s are jokers and retards. They gonna ban my belt loops too? Or not pressing the stock into my shoulder? That’d be rich. Can’t shoulder and can’t not shoulder cuz we scared ah fizzuqs.

  17. Counter argument.

    Do you own a car?

    In 2016, US traffic deaths topped 40,000. That’s 109 deaths every day. Double the deaths in the Vegas shooting.

    That’s a 6% rise since 2015 and a 14% rise since 2014.

    There are many factors contributing to fatalities and the two factors most commonly cited are impairment and speeding.

    One is strictly user choice (sleepy, drunk) and the other is mechanically enabled (the ability to drive over 30mph).

    Being able to drive over 30mph is not a necessity for most people with reasonable commutes. Thousands of lives would be saved if cars couldn’t go above 30mph.

    Where is the common sense legislation limiting speed? Speed limits are the same as gun free zones — no one follows the posted speed limits. So why not limit the engine? No bumpstops.

    Why are sport cars allowed on roads anyway. No practical application when the purpose of a car is to get you from point A to point B. Surely only professionals should be able to drive any luxury sports car? No you, average citizen, for fear you decide to drink and drive and kill someone.

    What’s this? You don’t agree? But what of public safety? All you care about is you being able to drive fast in your car.

    Sound familiar? The difference being I don’t recall how many mugging, home invasions, rapes, and crimes cars have stopped.

  18. Look, it’s not just bump stocks and binary triggers, watch for the language used in any upcoming bill. I think they will go after ANYTHING that “increases the rate of fire” — maybe your Timney 3.5lb drop in trigger can become unkosher. These effers are going to cast as wide a net as possible to punish gun folks.

  19. Wait until the media catches on to the whole SBR vs Pistol Brace foolishness. How do you think that will hold up to mainstream scrutiny? We can say goodbye to our pistol braces as well.

    We were so close to getting the Hearing protection Act to the Senate. Days away. Now…Very upsetting.

    • Yeah… How convenient, huh? The Scalise shooting right before HPA was up for a vote; now this happens right before SHARE Act…. Hmmm…. Deep state; or a DNC hitjob?

  20. I think this guy was the first human being on the planet to manage to actually hit a goddman target with a bumpfire.

    In my, and everyone I know who’s used one, experience it’s just a great way to turn money into smoke and fire and shoot the ground a lot.

    • The “target” was a mass of humanity consisting of 22,000 people. He was basically just firing into an area, no real aiming necessary.

      • I contend that he could have killed more peopel if he actually had a scope and aimed. The injury count would have been lower but there would be more dead.

        The Bumpfire saved lives!

  21. s͆t͆a͆r͆t͆ c͆r͆e͆a͆t͆i͆n͆g͆ m͆o͆n͆e͆y͆ w͆i͆t͆h͆o͆u͆t͆ d͆e͆l͆a͆y͆. g͆e͆t͆ l͆o͆n͆g͆e͆r͆ t͆o͆g͆e͆t͆h͆e͆r͆ w͆i͆t͆h͆ y͆o͆u͆r͆ f͆a͆m͆i͆l͆y͆ by͆ d͆o͆i͆n͆g͆ j͆o͆bs͆. e͆a͆r͆n͆ u͆p͆t͆o͆ 8k͆ u͆s͆d͆ a͆ m͆o͆n͆t͆h͆. f͆o͆r͆ m͆o͆r͆e͆ d͆e͆t͆a͆i͆l͆s͆ g͆o͆ h͆e͆r͆e͆:………….

  22. How about we “let” them make bump-fire stocks an NFA item, as long as they open up the NFA Registry to all of the existing undeclared automatic firearms that have been converted or imported since May 1986 – including dealer samples and “hobby” conversions that were done under the radar? That way, we’d see the available stock of NFA weapons increased over the 186 thousand+, and the “benefit” would be that the government would supposedly have the ability to know where a lot more of these weapons are – and it would give them an idea of how much or little real control they have over the public’s ability to own “illegal” NFA weapons. Is that a tradeoff we’d – or the government – would be willing to accept?

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