“A Jonesboro store that has been robbed several times in the past hired a security guard to keep the store safe,” liveleak.com reports. “While on watch, the security guard noticed a man approaching the store wearing a mask. When the masked-man opened the door, the guard saw the robber had a weapon, and drew his own gun in defense. However, the security guard’s weapon was on safe, but luckily, the robber was a bad aim and shot the door instead.” GLOCK Fan Boyz unite! Your blog post is at hand! Anyway, that could have turned out nasty. My most important takeaway . . .
the guard had no business positioning himself by the [darkened] door like that. As events proved, denying himself space denied him time to react which almost denied him his life.
OK, let’s give the man props for his lightning quick draw. But a fat lot of good that would have done him if the robber or robbers had come storming in with a baseball bat. Or had spent five seconds checking out the locale before entering. Or entered without a mask. He would have never seen it coming.
So to those of you who sit with your back to the wall and check entrances and exits wherever you go, who look for cover and concealment before you need it, bravo! Because where you position yourself could mean the difference between life and death.
Should of had the guard standing out front with an AR, pistol on hip and a vest. Bet they would not get robbed again.
Or they’d come up behind him with a club and beat his brains out while he was checking his cell phone.
I Did’t say stand out front with his face in his phone facing the wall.
But you do get what you pat for.
Speed, surprise and violence of action. Which one’s missing from the stand-outside-the-door scenario?
Drove past a Bank of America branch a couple days ago- guard dressed just so, back to wall, alert- caught me eyeballing him, from the car 30 yards away driving by- a nod of respect, back and forth.
Maybe you can find a mall cop with nicely creased pants and you three can circle up and let one fly nodding about how operation you are.
The point was, the guy was in a good position, back to wall, paying attention.
Thats the point of this article- right?
Not who is more operator-ish… maybe thats your gig, and thats fine by me.
You da man, bro.
Troybilt, I would be in the back of the store looking at the front. Not outside as a target.
I don’t necessarily think the outside the door position would be optimal–but to be fair, the idea isn’t to trap and shoot a robber, or even to respond to a robber’s attack (with speed, surprise, and violence of action). The idea is to keep from being robbed again, and given the oft-repeated wisdom that the vast majority of robbers are looking for an easy mark, not a fight, deterrence via a visibly armed guard might be a valid option I think. At any rate, looks like this guy pretty much chose for himself the worst of both worlds.
Yes this is what I was getting at. Thugs tend to pick an easy target ( like Target parking lots. ) Like everything it may not work 100% of the time.
Is it just me but you are armed security for a stop& rob, see a guy w/facemask would you draw then? Glad the guards pistol had a safety this guy w a glock or similar striker fire is an ND in waiting. My 1911 safety goes off a I draw. Taught that @ 10. If your carrying a weapon know how to use it. I know ammo costs but practice box is cheap compared to a casket.
That is precisely why I carry Walther P 1 or Beretta, that long trigger pull on first rd.
Agreed. There is no need to engage a safety on a 1911 when it is holstered. The grip safety alone makes it safer than a Glock. The only time I engage the safety on either my 1911 or my Hi Power is when I intend to handle it. When I said this once before some babbler went on about the manual arms. If a holstered 1911 with a grip safety is unsafe then a holstered Glock with no safety is even more dangerous yet I never hear anybody talk about how unsafe a Glock is.
Wow.. that’s some of the worst advise that I have ever read. PLEASE IGNORE tdiinva’s POST!!!
More proof that you should only get training from well-established professional instructors and NOT from internet posts.
Tdiinva, please STOP posting, your advice is BAD and will get someone killed. And please let me know when and where you are shooting so I can be sure not to be there.
Heah, Keyboard Commando, I have a lot more training than you do. I have been carrying a 1911 for 40 years and have been carrying it holstered without the safety for 30 of those years. Guess what? Never had a ND. Not even close. Ever hear of trigger discipline? The idea that a Glock is safe because it has a heavier trigger pull is ridiculous. It’s not a double action pull. It’s marginally heavier. The standard 1911 trigger is 4lbs;. the Glock is 5.5lbs which is something that is unnoticeable to an adrenaline charged finger. Glocksters, get it through your thick skulls the little thingy on the trigger is not a safety. It is deactivated by the same motion that fires the gun. It is a drop safety that’s all. If you have lousy trigger discipline you are just as likely to shoot yourself in the foot when you draw your Glock as you will any other gun. A gun in a holster is an inert object. It takes an human action to fire it. If you have poor discipline it doesn’t matter what you carry. If you have it any gun is safe when sitting in holster.
Tdiinva,
Doing something negligent and stupid for a long time does not make it any less stupid and negligent.
Nothing worse than a know-it-all that knows nothing
Most of your posts offer bad advise. Wake up and get some training and stop posting as u will get someone killed
There is a huge difference between a Glock trigger and a 1911. Its not just the weight, but the length of travel as well. You would know this if you tried it yourself instead of relying on your “I have more training than you do” attitude. Carrying a 1911, loaded, with the safety off is negligent.
You stated: “The only time I engage the safety on either my 1911 or my Hi Power is when I intend to handle it. ” That means that you put the safety on as your draw? Either way, thats the stupidest thing that I have ever heard, Mr. know it all.
Rab: the length is not appreciably longer. It is nothing like the DA on a Beretta or a SIG. It is a compromise between a short trigger and a double action. Like all compromises it i worse than either. It is long enough to introduce a fractional delay but not long enough to prevent you from accidentally pulling the trigger. How many times to we have post LEO Glock NDs before people figure that out.
This is supposed to be a pro-Glock discussion. You are on the wrong Blog.
Heah Keyboard Commando as I said below I have had lots of government issue training. My training was focused on the first rule for intelligence officers. You know what that is? While not using the same words as in The Recruit” it comes down to “Don’t get caught.” That is the rule that every private citizen with a gun should follow and train for. Don’t let yourself get into a situation where you will need to use a gun. To repeat don’t get noticed, run away and only in extremis get into a gun fight. Your operator training is more likely to get you killed or arrested than save your life. “Speed, surprise and violence of action” is all well and good if you are a LEO but if that’s what you need to a survive as private citizen then you have screwed big time.
Michael of GA:
Yeah, I know that. Springfield doesn’t even cut it because its got that grip safety thing.
“Speed, surprise and violence of action” is all well and good if you are a LEO but if that’s what you need to a survive as private citizen then you have screwed big time.”
Oop, there it is.
Tdiinva,
Just because you were taught that crap in the military 40 years ago-if that’s where you got it- does not make it right. It’s not only wrong, it’s dangerous. Tactics and techniques have evolved since then. You should keep up.
Your defensive gun fighting “advice” is just as wrong as your gun handling techniques.
Heah keyboard commando. My last refresher training was 2011. Unless you are in the paramilitary ops world like my last boss Mike Vickers, (Know who he is?) your job isn’t to engage in a gunfight. You have spent too much time watching James Bond. Intelligence types seldom carry guns and avoid getting into a situation where you need to fight at all costs. We also don’t have hot babes crawling over us either. Wish we did.
The problem with the firearms community is that is has too many keyboard commandos like you in it who think that they have to be as proficient as a SWAT commando. I prepare for the most likely threat, a punk who wants my wallet or has blundered his way past the dogs into my house in zero dark thirty. I am not expecting someone with STASI, GRU training or a Zeta hit team. But you go ahead and keep up your operator training just in case they come looking for you.
“I prepare for the most likely threat, a punk who wants my wallet or has blundered his way past the dogs into my house in zero dark thirty”
That right their is your problem. You were trained to the “lowest common denominator.” That’s what you get with government training. When training is dumbed down that much, you don’t get anything worthwhile. The rest of us train and think to a much higher level than “lowest common denominator.”
And by the way, correct me if I am wrong, but “Surprise, Speed, and Violence of Action” were buzz words in the SEALS community four or five years ago, right?
I dont see how my training to respond that way, in a civilian defense HD type scenario, here in So Cal, is going to be useful, at all, except in a very hypothetical and vanishingly small percentage of TSHTF scenarios, and even then, only if I had been training with team mates, who were doing same. That would imply an almost un-achievable commitment of time and money, to even come close to what those guys do for work, with huge resources behind them.
And thats based on what I’ve talked about with a couple of those kinds of guys- who in the real world, are almost to a man, understated, humble, and close-mouthed to a fault. They would certainly not be here criticizing another gun person, who carries and trains in another line of work, because they know better than anyone how very different their work is, and what different missions and roles require.
Personally, and this again is not in defense of tdi, because he doesnt need my help number one, but also because I dont know his line of work, nor yours- its just that you dont sound like you know what you are talking about, Sammy- all I am hearing is you criticizing, without any real facts or background, except your opinion.
Again- I would really like to know- just what is it you do, and how and why do you carry your 1911 that way.
In my situation, civilian for home defense and maybe someday out and about CCW, I am going to do my best to be situationally aware, first, cautious about commiting myself to ANY armed action, only after first trying to run away if possible, with my kids,
and if I engage it would be with the appropriate force on force, like- I would have to defend on the grounds of legal self defense in California. Going all Navy Seals on someone is not what that is-
And if you are an operator, more power to you- but going all operator on someone, even if it is valid self-defense, also runs the risk of going overboard and god forbid you make a mistake and apply it on the wrong situation- the teenager from next door who sneaks into your house at night, drunk, trying to find his bedroom, and you light him up with your m40 or whatever, all tactical-like.
Just my two cents.
Sammy, you’re being pretty obtuse here.
What you’re doing doesn’t seem far beyond putting your fingers in your ears and saying “nananana”.
A 1911 with a round in the chamber, uncocked, safety off, is pretty much the same as a glock with one in the pipe.
Literally the only differences is that the glock trigger pull is *slightly* heavier, and the 1911 trigger pull is significantly longer on the first round.
There is nothing to discuss here. It’s pretty cut and dry.
I quit pointing that out 5 years ago, they just respond to it with “Well, yes, but,,,,,”. I carry a Walther P1, rd in the tube, hammer dropped and safety off. Am on and off all manner of farm&construction equipment, in and out of vehicles, do all manner of labor. For years. No problems other than unsatisfactory holsters. And none of that makes any difference.
Its like the whole Glock thing. I just don’t like a pistola with no exposed hammer. Somehow that makes me a Bad Person. Still have not figured out how or why.
2hotel9, Do your rifles have hammers?
Richard, You have no idea what you are talking about. 1911s are not DA/SA.
So, 1911s and glocks and walthers are rifles, now? Okey dokey, then.
If you have a Tandy Leather store reasonably close stop by & talk to the manager they likely can suggest a good local leather worker. That’s how I found my guy they used to have a holster pattern for the P1. The P1, p99/sw99 were designed to becarried hot w/o the safety my Fnp’s the same
either cocked & lockef or decocked. I even have a Daewoo .40cal that you push the hammer down to go DA/SA. & surprize its accurate for a Korean oddball pistol.
Have a customized Bianca that weighs a ton, its OK if I am stationary most of the time, climbing and lifting and carrying not so much. Most of the time I use an old Uncle Mikes soft nylon Glock holster, stitched and riveted so it holds tight, it moves about on belt a good bit, though. Want to go with trigger guard retention type. I have trained with other pistols using them and really like it.
As for Daewoo, I have fired a few and can’t really complain about then. Kinda like a Datsun compared to a Cadillac, they both get you there, one is just a lot more economical than the other!
One of the more stupid remarks posted on TTAG. Seriously, stop posting crap advice like this.
The 1911 trigger is much lighter and shorter a pull than any Glock.
You are an idiot if you are carrying your 1911 cocked but not with the safety on.
Rev. Practice all you want but the real test comes not when it’s for real but when you have a false alarm. Where is your finger when you think something is going down when it isn’t. I don’t know about you but I have had only one serious false alarm when I felt a need to draw. My trigger finger was safely outside the trigger guard just like all trainers teach. Do you know where your trigger would be in that situation?
The safety is on. What you failed to mention is the 1911 has TWO safeties. One on the grip and one on the slide. Unlike the Glock which is ND written all over it. When you are pumped up a long trigger pull won’t save your life. Only applying the finger in the trigger region when needed will.
Yeah, a 1911 cocked without the safety on would be dangerous.
It’s my understanding that that is exactly NOT what he was talking about, as he referenced “the long first trigger pull”.
Your point is a good one, not debating that.
I carry plenty of da/sa weapons with one in the chamber, uncocked, and safety off.
It’s just as safe as carrying a revolver (depending on the trigger), yet those follow up shots are quicker and easier.
You never hear anyone saying how unsafe a Glock is? Do you at least read it here in the comments almost every time a Glock is the subject? I don’t find Glocks to be unsafe but I have read comments from people citing safety issues as the reason they would never own one.
What makes the Glock unsafe is not that it lacks a safety. It is unsafe because people think the “safe action” trigger makes it safe. That is the real reason that makes Glocks owners prone to NDs. Any gun sitting in a proper holster is safe. It is the lack of trigger discipline that makes a gun unsafe.
To add to what the other commentators said regarding your advice, and at the risk of being considered by you to be a babbler going on about manual of arms, if you don’t brush off the manual safety every time you raise your gun to fire then one day you’ll pull the trigger and the gun won’t fire because the safety is switched on. If it happens at the wrong time it could get you and whoever you’re defending killed. If you don’t want to use a safety, get a gun without a safety. Leaving a manual safety switched off and acting like the gun has no safety is a bad practice. 1911 manual of arms: brush off the safety between drawing and firing. Always, even if the safety is off you should do it. Although such a weapon is properly carried cocked and locked.
I learned to do that 40 years ago. It is so ingrained that I even “brush the safety” on my XD/m even though it doesn’t have one.
There is theory and there is real life application…
It sounds like a great theory you have there, but I’m not sure it will translate well to real life.
heh… you are not agreeing with him, you are doing the opposite (he takes the safety off as part of the draw, meaning when he is readying to fire).
And no one is agreeing with you on this…
Don’t you realize how operator tdiinva is? We may be talking directly to Instructor Zero, in the internet flesh!
Heah clown, I am the least of the operators posting here. The government training I received amounted to don’t get noticed, run away and use your weapon only as the very last resort. That is a lot more useful than the operator training favored by everyone here. If you were “visiting” East Berlin or East Germany under the four power agreement the recommended procedure to follow when you failed at the first two was “Hands Hoch.” MAJ Arthur Nicholson failed to followed that recommendation when he got caught photographing a Soviet installation and he was shot and killed.
Tdiinva, I’m confused. Are you saying that you are trained to run away from conflict? Certainly Mr. Vickers didn’t teach you that.
I don’t care what your training methods were, but the job I did in the military (one that requires a “selection school” to get in to) taught me much that keeps my family and I safe now, even if much of that training was”operator”-ish. I gurantee you one thing though. If I was training with a 1911, I’d use the safety. I’m not stupid…
People that were intel or special programs or agencies don’t talk about it. Just as people in combat don’t discuss the things done or witnessed. Unless trying to make a buck. I never understood why my Uncle(ww2), inlaws(korea & ww2), brother(vietnam) would never discuss anything. After my turn & there passing away understood. All the remington rangers read to much Soldier of Fortune in the 80’s, now vomiting it back on the net.
Sheepdog:
The role of the intelligence officer is gather intelligence and not get tangle up in fight with people who are going to outgun you. I don’t any case officer who walks around with gun in all but the most dangerous places. Only in the movies do intelligence types go around getting involved in gun fights. I will repeat what the rules are in the intelligence world. Don’t get noticed, run away and only fight as last ditch measure. That is the real world for both spooks and private citizens.
Retired LEO:
I retired from the IC 21 months ago and if you think anything I say here is super secret than all you are doing is saying you don’t much. FYI, I wasn’t good enough at counter-surveillance to work in the field so I spent my career as an intelligence bureaucrat. However, I guarantee you that I am good enough to spot Juwan the gangbanger before he spots me and I probably can walk up any of you, tap you on the shoulder to say high with zero warning time.
tdiinva, the role of the intelligence officer is to send guys like me out to gather inteligence to report back to you.
Absent any previous training a citizen starting out would be better served by training geared more toward your basic home defense or gas station being robbed type of scenario, so I think I understand where you are coming from, but different training makes one no less prepared to deal with those scenarios.
It’s people like you who give the rest of us a bad name. You’re an accident waiting to happen.
It has been waiting to happen for 40 years and yet we read almost weekly about some Glockster sending an unintended round down range.
Tdiinva’s practice of carrying a 1911 without the safety engaged isn’t a huge deal. He’s right, there’s a grip safety and as long as the trigger pull is in the five pound range it should be fine.
Hell, the original 1911 design didn’t even have a thumb safety.
http://forums.officer.com/t144283/
I would only be worried about accidentally engaging the thumb safety. Which is why I carry a Glock.
Still enjoy a 1911, though.
But you have to give the “safety Nazis” something to bitch about.
“Hell, the original 1911 design didn’t even have a thumb safety.”
Notice that it was changed and a safety added 100 years ago????
The thumb safety was added so cavalrymen on horseback could make the pistol safe with one hand while trying to deal with an unruly horse.
That situation isn’t one tdiinva is likely to find himself in.
Hey now! An operator operating operationally has to be proficient in operating any operational mode of transport encountered while operating in the operational ops area!
Michael B.
Thank you for sticking up for me.
This is going to be my last word on the subject which will fall on the deaf ears of the Glocksters.
If anybody thinks that it is unsafe to have a holstered firearm in a ready to fire condition then he is saying that he agrees with Shannon Watts firearms are just ready to go off. For a gun to fire human interaction must happen. A pistol sitting in holster is just an inert piece of metal or metal/plastic combination. It just doesn’t fire on its own. All NDs happen when the gun is being handled. If you have lousy trigger discipline whether you draw a 1911 or a Glock you are going to shoot yourself in the foot. If you have lousy trigger and muzzle discipline than you are eventually going to negligently shoot someone.
Now, from my original post: “The only time I engage the safety on either my 1911 or my Hi Power is when I intend to handle it.” That means that when I handling the firearm other than shooting it the safety is engaged. Unlike a Glock, the gun is not going off. The most likely time to get an ND is when you are clearing the weapon before putting it away. Guess what? You can’t clear a pistol with a safety unless you disengage it. So at the mostly like time for an ND it doesn’t matter whether the gun has a safety or not because it is not in use. Another advantage to the 1911. You can take hold of the grip without depressing the grip safety so you can reduce the probability of an ND to its absolute minimum.
And finally, the bedside pistol is in condition three irrespective if it is either of the JMB pistols, the Springfield or the M-9. Grabbing a gun in the middle of night coming out of sleep is not a good time to have a ready to fire pistol laying around.
Now for last word for Sammy:
Here is the three most likely things to happen to you.
(1) Despite all your super operator oriented training you are probably going to be hit over the head because you didn’t notice the bad guy looking you over.
(2) Because of all your super operator oriented training you are going shoot an aggressive panhandler because you will think he is about to mug you.
(3) Because you have a lot of super operator oriented training you are going walk into Juwon the gangbanger’s random shot pattern as you get off the X.
tdiinva,
You don’t who I am, what I do nor what I know. you don’t have a f’king clue (on numerous levels)
Well Sammy, I know one thing. You are a f#cking idiot because you took the bait and responded. Congratulations you have been successfully PSYOPed. Why do you think I wrote what I did?
I gave up giving a shit about what you write a long time ago except to warn others to stay far away from your bad advice.
Please stop posting as your horrible advice will get people killed.
I am going to be serious here. .Your response to an obvious psychological ploy tells me that you are insecure about your own capabilities. If you were an experienced “operator” you would have stopped responding a long time ago. You are far more likely to get yourself or someone else killed than I am because you are focused on playing the badass gunfighter instead of using your head to avoid and if necessary position yourself for self defense. The armed citizen is always on the defensive and at a disadvantage when it comes to a DGU so it is a smart thing to make sure you never get into one. It is far better to train to identify and avoid a bad actor than it is to simply learn how to be a gunfighter. If that bit of common sense can’t penetrate your thick skull than you are a danger to yourself and the community.
The only intelligent strategy for an armed citizen is don’t get noticed, run away if you do and if and only if those options fail go to guns.
tdiinva,
Have you had your meds checked lately? Seriously.
I’m sorry, I’ve only been a gun owner for 3 years, but there does seem to be an issue Tdiinva’s advice, and that is that while he personally may be able to manage this type of training/carrying style perfectly and safely without indecent, which he seems to have done, it is most likely not safe for others to do so due to lack of ingrained muscle-memory and decades of carrying in this fashion. I would think that in a great many cases, with fairly inexperienced shooters (such as myself) someone would eventually be bound to hurt themselves or others. I was taught that the best way to carry a weapon was the way it was designed to be carried, which with a cocked 1911 is “safety on” and to advise otherwise it to incite newbie disaster. Just my thoughts. Carry on, gentlemen.
Are you sure that is how it was designed to be carried? I think it was designed to be carried with an empty chamber and then when you rack the slide, it cocks the hammer, chambers a round and puts the gun in SA mode until it runs out of ammo or is decocked. If it is posible to be carried cocked with the safety off, don’t you think you can do it safely as long as you obey the rules of safe firearm handling? I do, not saying I would, but I don’t carry a gun with a manual safety anyway.
Again, my experience is limited, and I am sure that you can carry it either in the way that you are describing or the way in which tdiinva mentioned earlier, the problem is that it “does” have a thumb safety, and unless you have either trained yourself never to engage it under any condition whatsoever, whether that be in handling, carrying, cleaning or during range time, or have trained your muscled to instinctively switch it off (again as Tdiinva has said that he has) it has the potential to become a hazard in high stress circumstances, either by inhibiting fire or not being engaged as the holder anticipated and allowing for a ND. I think it probably has less to do with whether or not it is “safe”, though that is of course a very important factor with any weapon, and more to do with the ingrained habits that will ensure proper action.
Added note: I have only owned one pistol with a thumb safety and that was a FNS, and while I have fired a 1911 i am not familiar enough with the platform’s exact mechanics to know whether or not its safety is compromised by leaving the thumb safety disengaged. Mechanically speaking, it could be perfectly safe for all I know. I just know man is prone to er and its best to stack the odds in your favor against such errors.
The FNS has a pull similar to DA so without the safety, it operates much like the Glock. The 1911 does not have the DA feature so the hammer must be cocked before it can be fired. In the cocked position, the pull on the trigger is slight. No matter the poundage, the length of pull is short. ND occure when something or someone presses the trigger. Modern 1911s have a drop safety so using the thumb safety only eliminates trigger pull as the cause of fire. I prefer to get a long trigger with no safety and learn to shoot accurate and fast with that gun. The Glock and most pistols I am aware of have a trigger reset that is about half the pull length of the first pull. To me, that lessens the advantage of the 1911 trigger.
This is kind of for the record post so when someone goes back and reads this thread he/she will understand how a 1911 actually functions.
After much thought I realized that many of you who took exception with the way I handle the pistol probably have little if any familiarity with a 1911. There is different between “knowing” the manual of arms and understanding the manual arms in the context of how the pistol functions. I am going to take you through “A day in the life of carrying 1911.”
When I take the pistol out of the safe there is no magazine inserted, the hammer has been released and thumb safety is not engaged. There should be no round in the chamber but I am going to check that in a minute.
Q: Should I engage the thumb safety?
A: You cannot engage the thumb safety until the hammer is cocked.
Q: Why?
A: The 1911 is a single action, hammer fired pistol. It is fired when the hammer strikes the firing pin with enough force to detonate the primer in the chambered round. When the hammer is not cocked it has zero potential energy and the gun cannot fire. That is why the thumb safety does not engage unless the hammer is cocked. However, unless you have firm grip the pistol the independent grip safety is still engaged.
Ok, let’s make sure that I didn’t inadvertently leave round in the chamber. I rack the slide and visually inspect the chamber, No round. The gun is safe at the moment.
Q: Now that hammer is cocked should I engage the thumb safety?
A: I could but I won’t.
Q: Why?
A: Because you cannot rack the slide when the safety is engaged. I will rely on the grip safety to secure pistol while I chamber a round.
Ok, Now I insert the magazine and rack the slide carefully gripping the pistol low so as not to disengage the grip safety. Having chambered a round on an unholstered pistol I now engage the thumb safety, then I holster the pistol. At this point I i disengage the thumb safety.
Q: Does this mean that the gun is off safety?
A: No, the grip safety is engaged until I grip the pistol.
The gun is in the holster, I am not handling it unless I need to defend myself and the pistol is safe. If I find that I have to handle it, including a trip to the head I engage the thumb safety and disengage it when I reholser.
At the end of the day we reverse the procedure. I engage the thumb safety and remove the pistol from the holster. I drop the magazine and now I have to clear it. I reverse the loading procedure. Gripping the pistol low so as to leave the grip safety engaged I flip off the thumb safety (remember, you can’t rack the slide with thumb safety engaged) and rack the slide ejecting the chambered round. I also visually inspect the chamber and then release the hammer before putting it back in the safe. If it is going on the bedside table then I reinsert the magazine but do not rack the slide. Since the hammer isn’t cocked there is no need, nor is it possible, to engage the thumb safety.
I want all you know-it-alls to show me where I have been unsafe.
Here is some new for you Glock fans. You have bought into Glock’s marketing slogan. The Glock safe action is anything but. Unless you have the NYPD trigger a Glock trigger is only marginally heavier and marginally longer than a 1911. You can tell the difference between a Glock style trigger and a 1911 only if you shoot the 1911 first but if the only thing you shoot is a Glock your finger adjusts and there is no difference in the likelihood that a person with poor discipline will inadvertently pull the trigger. The Glock is an unsafe firearm. If you want a pistol that is truly a safe action striker fired gun than get Springfield with a grip safety.
“Because where you position yourself could mean the difference between life and death.”
A lesson I very nearly paid for with my life, back in the long ago.
Can’t see the video, won’t load. I can well imagine it, though. And no, that is damned well not where I would be doing security from. The layout of the structure, entrances, street access, windows, would dictate where security would need to be. And spare me cameras. Watching it afterwards is not security. Actively monitoring while communicating to guards? Different story entirely. Most K-Wikee Marts don’t do that, same for most Federal and military facilities but that is a different issue entirely. And don’t get me started on damned airports.
That was just so full of fail. What security guard wears a sports jersey?
When the security guard is family.
When you’re working in a neighborhood where a security guard uniform is tantamount to wearing a sign that says “shoot me first!” Think of the jersey as ‘somedood’ camouflage.
He was undercover loss prevention. A lot of department stores really have LP dress like that.
I was eating at my local IHOP and I realized there’s no seats with a good view of the entrance due to a huge dividing wall by the front door. Worse still if SHTF in the entrance way the shots could have gone through the wall and into whoever was behind it (in this case it was me and my family).
PS: The Fruit and Grain nut pancakes are great.
Yea those Harvest Multi grain Pancakes are SO GOOD.
especially if you have a colonoscopy in the morning
Suppose the perp’s gun “fired itself” as well?
I think this video may demonstrate what is meant by that: “Sh!tt!ng yourself and pulling the trigger at the same time = gun firing itself.
One word. TRAINING
I guess it all goes back to situational awareness. I also couldn’t get the video to work on mobile. In the local Aldi food stores they usually have a guard-sometimes armed. Every last one is a sitting duck. They are all uniformed & generally old. Security theater at it’s best.
The key take away here is that if you are going to carry a firearm with a manual safety system, learn how to use it, very, very well so in a time of stress you won’t fall apart.
And yes, this is precisely why I prefer carrying my EDC Glock with a round chambered.
Draw, pull trigger, repeat as often as necessary.
I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. – FAIL.
Rev, Talk about unsafe. I hope you are doing a “a do not shoot” drill as well because if all you do is practice “Draw, pull trigger, repeat as often as necessary” then when you think someone is behind the door and you are wrong you are going to send a round down range. I believe that would be called a negligent discharge. That kind of training advice is going get someone killed.
+1
Unfortunately a lot of places make their security sit in places that are not ideal. In this instance the person walking in the store was obviously planning on a crime. That’s not usually the case. In the store in the video it looks like the robber was surprised by the guard. The guard was sitting in an area that seems okay for normal prevention of shoplifting and people attempting to steal from the register. There’s not ideal location for every conceivable situation, however. This guy was lucky but he did react very quickly.
Looked like a holster or draw fail, the guard didn’t even hold onto the pistol it hit the ground.
You can see the holster go flying through the air too. Didn’t even have it belted up.
Hey, corn? You in WoT? Keep seeing that name when Boy and I are in there. Ya know? While we are operating operationally in the ops area, of course. 😉
You just witnessed why you never hire a “meat shield” to do security.
Unfortunately, “meat shields” are the only security which regular people can afford…
All the “non-meat shield” guys want six figures and benefits.
And rightfully so.
I would have hoped at least most Meat Shields would use their meaty hands to not drop their damn pistol on the ground.
Jeez, the dude fell to the ground. He needs to practice standing and drawing simultaneously. If the thug had been determined he could of shot the dude in the head as he lay on the ground, his gun on the ground nearby.
He is just one lucky sob to still be alive.
A pretty poor example of Loss Prevention.
He cant possibly be a pro.
If I were the guard, I would be across the store from the counter with a half decent view of the front door.
When a robber comes in, they immediately face the counter (assuming they draw before entering/wear a mask).
Another example of a safety failure, which is why none of my self defense handguns have safeties.
His problem with the safety stems from the fact that he is left handed.
That is a good point.
Clearly, the only viable answer is to kill all lefties.
They really are “sinister”.
As we have heard before, “Get off the ‘X’ on the floor!”. Aside from the fact that the man failed to disengage his safety, he stood up and then simply stood still making a big easy target of himself.
It is extremely important that good people practice drawing, moving, and shooting — doing all three simultaneously! You saw how the armed robber missed the stationary target that was only three feet away. Imagine how much harder it is for an armed robber to hit a moving target!
I started with dry-fire practice and eventually went to live fire practice at an outdoor range. Of course make sure your handgun is not loaded when you go about dry fire practice. That means unloading your magazine AND chamber.
My fault for using mobile s dropped. My safety comes off with the draw not no safety on. This guy with any striker fired would have an ND especially as the firearms training for armed security is less than a joke. 1 day on history of firearms, cartridge development & tons of other things that would be better served teaching safety range time, muzzle discipline all the normal topics that should be 30 -40 hours by themselves. 2 hours for each caliber carried, 4 hours for a shotgun. Along with the fact your employer is responsible for training. Basically anyone not a felon can become armed security in 16 hours after basic training. Overview of first aid? Give me a break if this is all the training they have it’s no wonder he can’t walk sat on his but so long his leg went too sleep. To get a CCW in SC requires more training. They all have disclaimers that it does not have NRA endorsement, or instructors
I have asked this question 37 times and I still have not been given a satisfactory answer. Here goes #38: If you take the safety off automatically on the draw rather than waiting until your sights are on target and you are ready to fire, then why do you need that safety in the first place? Anyone?…Anyone?…
Also, your assumption that this security gaurd would have had a negligent discharge if he had a striker fired pistol is nothing more than slander toward a firearm that you pesonally disdane and therefore your comment should be disregarded by anyone with a little common sense.
Don’t disdain striker fired. Dislike no manual safety for persons with very little firearms training. Unless & until he has training 99% will automatically put the index finger inside the trigger guard. Teaching basic firearms to 1st time owners i’ve seen it with almost everyone until after hour 10-12 in the training cycle. As to #38 the safety is for carry, especially in open top holsters or blackhawks with trigger guard releases. I have had people push down on the butt of the gun with finger index style lock and have ND’s it can & has been done. I carried a glock for years & still do on occasion. The only 2
pistols other than obvious
garbage I don’t care for are Beretta px series rotary bbl and the baby sized any pistol since I have large hands.
Thank you for the only reasonable reply to my question, however, that sounds like a holster issue and brings up a point by tdiinva, why not disengage the safety once you get it in the holster? Everybody is jumping on his ass for suggesting it but I can’t see where that is any less safe than the automatic safety disengage during draw.
And you bring another point to my mind. I have been answering the question of which safety rule is most important with “trigger discipline”. The gun can point all over the world but unless the trigger is activated on a properly functioning firearm then it should not misfire.
Go into most big box gun stores unless it’s a blackhawk kydex most holsters they carry have no retention. Open tops or
belt slides. The odds of a civilian concealed carrying getting a gun grab is low. However with open carry & in/out of cars, going to the toilet, climbing stairs ladders etc… even concealed the odds of the pistol falling out of the holster increases. Plus my first semi-auto for work carry was a 4506 Smith a great gun feeds any ammo you give it, but the reverse safety (up vs. down) & mag safety that everyone claims to hate you love after 3 guys jump you & the quirks give you time to get your back-up & fire. I’m 6’2 & was 225 of muscle @ the time they made me feel small. All over a roach in the ashtray. Mag & weapon safeties have a place. Go to Bass Pro, Cabelas, whatever you have close & ask for a non-plastic holster see what they carry for IWB/OWB carry. Play dumb see what they suggest, you’ll see they push holsters either crappy nylon or no retention slides. The yaqui style slide has it’s place just not on a newbie. Gun purchasers in the last few years are buying there first, big boxes with limited knowledge clerks account for most sales. I had a clerk tell me a sig 2022 was garbage made by hi-point but, this new S&W M&P was made by the same co. that made the $1295 Kimber. Told him all I could afford was the on sale Sig. Now it sells for more than the M&P $650/SIG vs. $599 M&P. BTW I own 6 striker pistols 2 more b/o. A number of hammer fired. I’m also working on a striker fired long gun mechanism so I do like striker. Still love my revolvers & metal frame autos.
I’m sorry. It’s just when you said “This guy with any striker fired would have an ND… “, I thought you were bashing striker fired weapons which, sure looks that way in your comment.
I get that poor holsters can be a problem but you can’t dictate how everyone carries and a poor holster is better than no holster. People just have to be responsible.
The problem boils down to training & I think every manufacturer should provide a basic retention holster. The quantity they would buy them in would add negligible cost. Also they all put a trees worth of safety paperwork in the box I think a holster is part of safety. Stores teach employees to boost sales carry a decent retention holster they can retail a Tagus paddle or belt thumb break for less than a blackhawk. Wal-mart online has tagua paddle leather thumb break for $39.00 blackhawk is $6.00 more
That would be fine with me. Some don’t even come with a hard case or any method of carry, just a cardboard box. They could save on the cable lock that I will never use and throw in a holster.
Everyone should come in a cardboard box with 2-3 mags or speed strips & holster. If a lock is required by law they cost ninety cents. How many times have you had to wait 6months or longer for a holster that fits PX-4 was a year, Fn had them in shooter packs before the stores. Bob @ Fn was nice enough to send a kydex retention rig & safety bbl for the .45 when it came out & none could be found.
Retired LEO, thanks thats good common sense about the retention holsters.
Just a civilian thinking ahead here to the someday if I DO need a CCW, and what would I carry it in- I’ve been trying IWB and OWB with SERPA and Safari land- the former no more due to the AD with Tex Cooper example of why IPDA has banned them, and the thumb release on the Safariland seeming most natural.
My problem with belt holsters for my doggone cellphone is ripping the dang thing off getting in and out of the car, squatting to pick up a box of groceries at Costoc, and have the damn thing go clattering on the ground, scaring the crap out of someone or worse.
So, better safe than sorry is my motto, and if that means a bit more discomfort, a little slower draw and/or over-garment in order to use a retention holster- so be it.
I am looking into ordering a custom made retention type holster for my Walther P1. Nothing I have tried off shelf really works with it. And yes, I know it is “antique” and not tacticool, like it anyway. You’ll be hard pressed to find a safer to carry loaded handgun. Plus it is all retro looking and whatnot!
I think some people just prefer manual safety as a sort of “Peace of Mind”, you train yourself to take the safety off every time during the draw but knowing it exists and is functioning properly might make someone feel better.
On a SA only pistol with no Grip Safety, I would say its fairly important to have a manual safety, but then again, the fact could and would be argued.
In the end, all goes down to Personal Preference. and I EDC an XD subcompact, so no manual safety 🙂
You XD guys always get between the Glock vs. 1911 arguments. I don’t care what anybody chooses to carry as long as they are proficient with that choice. I just prefer fewer moving parts. G19 for me. I don’t even like the trigger flange on a Glock. I doubt it has prevented a single ND. And NO! It is NOT a drop safety. The drop safety is internal and separate from the trigger flange.
Those Dastardly XD people hahaha
I didnt want a Glock at the time, couldnt afford the Sig I wanted, and I dont wanna carry around a large boat anchor i.e. 1911 🙂
I LOVE 1911’s (Historically and shooting them) and grew up more or less learning how to shoot a pistol shooting my buddies grandpa’s well worn GI model, just something about that grip safety feels SO RIGHT *(to me).
I really do find a lot of humor in these EDC carry discussions, because were all SO different anyway, how could we possibly agree on one gun to rule them all?
Top to TTAG: when using real-world scenarios to illustrate points, pick scenarios that make the point, not unmake them. This scenario just shows that random events have as much to do with surviving a gunfight as anything else. And security guards serve as deterrents as much as they do for defense, so posting one outside with an ar could make sense.
The 1911 and the Glock are both very safe weapons…IF you keep your booger picker off the bang switch until you’re ready to shoot!
Belly flop aside, the guard served his purpose: prevented the robbery. Noone got hurt except the door. It looks like a good day to me…:)
From personal experience, I can tell you the most difficult thing about any security job, is not letting it lull you into complacency. Its an endurance test of vigilance that grinds away at your situational awareness.
So tdiivna, what happened to being a quiet professional? Your disuse of a safety on the 1911 platform is being foolish, it’s literally a ND waiting to happen. To put things in perspective there are only a handful of firearms that I consider safe with out the use of a safety, they are SIG, HK (some models just have a decocker), and beretta (decocked w/ safety off). After reading your posts tonight myself and it seems others (Retired LEO?), appear to have some serious doubts you were ever a intelligence professional.
Your statements on civilians training like “operators” are a little over the top. While I will concede that sometimes the training people do is a little over the top, and for most people, they will never need that level of training, (99% of Americans lead a very normal life). Understand this, Joe Schmo feels the need to buy a JPC from Crye Precision and a FAST helmet, and Peltors, then more power to them. If it gets people outside and getting thier heart rate up while learning new skills that could save heir lives, then that’s great.
I will admit right now that I believe the whole “operator” obsession has gotten old, as a buddy of mine once said, “why pretend to be something your not? It’s not gonna fill that hole in your life.”
Sammy, not to take sides here, but I notice tdiinva is giving specific reasons and background as context for his carry regimen, yet you are responding only with a very general slur “bad advice” repeated over and over, with no facts or counter argument. If you have specific experience in your work, and from your training, with specific examples of the “condition” you carry your 1911, I would be interested to hear it.
Not because I have a 1911, only because I notice there is quite a bit of disagreement in that community, going back to LTC Jeff Cooper, USA, and by various LEO entities, for why they carry one way or another. Me, I carry a Glock because its KISS- and my trigger finger is my safety. If I wanted to be even safer I guess I could carry Israeli style.
But see- thats just me, and why- if I could carry concealed, which I cannot here in So CA due to the Sheriffs policy, on definitions of who needs it-
as a civilian, I am NEVER going to train to the level of a cop, or an operator, because those are very different tactical regimes, that dont apply to my needs, or hypothetical situations.
“I am NEVER going to train to the level of a cop.” I agree, most are so bad that it is embarrassing. I train to a much higher level than most cops do.
Victims face far more danger, force and violence than cops do. Why would anyone think citizens should be less prepared?
Saw that and let it slide. Scary how many people just accept the “highly trained police” line without any hesitation.
“If I wanted to be even safer I guess I could carry Israeli style.” “Israeli style” with loaded magazine and unloaded chamber is NOT a good idea. No professional instructor recommends it. It is slow to get your gun into action, your support hand may be hurt or not available to rack the slide and present one more think that could go wrong, think: short troke under stress
Comments are closed.