I just returned from my local watering hole. I was more of less chased out by two gentlemen who considered my support for the Second Amendment tantamount to condoning mass murder. “Bobby, you’re full of shit,” one of my antagonists kept repeating, no matter how much I tried to calm him down. His drinking buddy, a Brown University professor, was equally adamant. And enervated . . .
“No one needs ten guns!” he said, slapping his hand on the bar.
“Are you saying you’d sacrifice those twenty kids for your freedom?” the local demanded.
I tried to explain my position. I tried to change the subject. I bought them both a drink. Neither were satisfied.
A woman at the end of the bar chipped in.”What about Mace?” She was angry that anyone would even consider carrying a firearm.
“Mace is good,” I demurred.
“It’s now three against one,” the Brown professor announced.
“You gotta gun?” the first gentleman demanded. “You gotta gun? Tell me if you gotta gun?” I refused to answer. “You’re full of shit. You know that? You’re full of shit.”
I got out of there as fast as I could. I drove back here and sat down at this desk to confess a single fact: I was wrong.
I was wrong when I wrote that President Obama wouldn’t touch gun control. I was wrong when I believed that America had shifted so far towards firearm rights that the extension of those rights had acquired the patina of inevitability. I’m sorry for my stupidity. I apologize to my readers.
You know that moment in the Wizard of Oz where the guy moving the levers shouts “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!” I’ve always known that the Great and Powerful Oz (a.k.a., the government) is not the beneficent force it would have its citizens believe. But now I’ve seen the bland face of Oz. And I’m scared.
Today should have been the day I took heart. But nothing the NRA Veep said at the national press conference makes me feel any safer. Ultimately, Wayne LaPierre argued for “professionally trained” security at our nation’s schools, paid for and provided by the government. Cops.
What the hell has happened to the idea of individual responsibility and freedom? The NRA should have called for armed teachers. And parents. And citizens. Not government intervention.
Are we really at that point where gun rights are defended by an organization that rails against first amendment freedom of expression while lobbying for yet another level of bureaucratic empowerment and incompetence? Is that going to keep our kids safe?
“Of course I trust the government,” the Brown professor thundered when I dared suggest that the police weren’t the best people to defend my own and my daughter’s life. “Nobody needs ten guns!” he repeated.
“Who gets to decide what I need?” I asked. “Me or society?”
“Society,” the guy calling me a bullshitter responded. Without blinking.
I’ve tried to ignore it. I’ve tried to live in peace with my neighbors. I’ve submitted to my local and state government’s Spanish Inquisition-like requirements for exercising my Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. I was wrong to think that going along to get along was good enough.
My heart aches for the children mowed down by a madman. I wouldn’t want to sacrifice any human life for my gun rights. But it’s a done deal.
The firearms freedom we cherish was already paid for in blood. We honor the memory of the people who fought for those rights, who fight for all innocent life, by defending our right to armed self-defense.
The Second Amendment isn’t sacrilege. It’s a testament. No man, no group of men, can shake my faith in our individual right to self-defense. And yet I’m scared for my freedom and the freedom of my daughter.
There’s no getting around it: I’m living in a proto-fascist state with a populace that not only ignores the government’s suppression of individual liberty but actively promotes it. Happily. Joyfully.
I’m told the heat in Texas can be unbearable. The same is true here in Rhode Island. I hope the Lone Star State has room for one more freedom-loving American.
Providence is a cool little city, but on its best day it doesn’t hold a candle to Austin …
Austin is amazing, the influx of foaming at the mouth ultra liberals moving in from San Fransisco is terrible. They’re trying to change the city for their liking and it’s ruining it. Sometimes I’m glad I moved away.
None the less, being born and raised there was a good thing. BEAUTIFUL city.
I have two good friends in Austin – both native Kalifornians. One moved here because he was a gun lover, and was tired of the growing arbitrary restrictions on his passion and rights. The other was an LA raised, guns-R-bad type, who now has a concealed carry permit, that I take to the range every now and then – even his wife is getting her CHL.
The upside is I think Texas converts as many as it might be diluted by. My only fear is the polarization that happens, but that is why the Constitution protects State sovereignty, and the peoples right to travel freely within the country.
And dude, WTF are you doing hanging out with Brown University professors? Is there nowhere else to get a drink?
Rhode Island is the size of your local walmart, only so many bars
OK seriously, unless you have family that requires your daily assistance (such as elderly parents or children with severe medical conditions) then WTF haven’t you left yet? Hell, I just bought a house with 2br more than I actually need just in case I end up having to take care of one or both of my parents in their dotage.
I would recommend Central TX (Austin/San Marcos/Round Rock and points in between) as it appears to be the libertarianest region in TX, where folks are more than happy to live and let live. There’s enough of a balance between hippies and college knowitalls and ranchers and rednecks to keep folks somewhat fair, civil and honest for the most part. Me, I bought about 20mi outside of Austin to get away from the HOAs and excessive tax authorities, but still within a reasonable commute.
Get thee to Texas post haste!
Kentucky is, in reality, much more gun friendly than Texas. Brady Bunch gives us a 2/100. Cooler and greener than Texas too. Did I mention I live between Bud’s and Knob Creek? In the most recent Democrat Primary Obama almost lost and he was the only candidate on the ballot–“other” got over 40% of the votes.
Go to El Paso, TX a city larger than Washington DC where in 2010 they had a total of five murders. And responsible adult citizens can carry concealed handguns. Wait…. that can’t
Come to Wyoming! We’d love to have you and you’d be among lots and lots and lots of people who are sane and likeminded. The population is only about half a million and the scenery is magnificient, and best of all, NO STATE INCOME TAx!
I feel for you. There’s a strong, strange, undercurrent here in America. I think the country is in trouble.
I agree with you something is going on in the Great Old USA not sure what the future holds but I don’t think it is good.
Oh, and Robert I have been there too I think many who believe in the 2nd who are nto afraid to speak their mind have too.
I agree with both Larry’s comment & Robert’s article. The results of the last election took the wind out of my sails. I’m sorry but I’m sure O hoped he would win the election but to me seemed genuinely surprised when he actually did win. I was as surprised, but then again… Talking with my step-kids they don’t see a problem with Bloomberg limiting the size of sodas yet in the same breath they complain about the ‘health food’ contents of vending machines at schools – and they don’t see the irony of it (of course they are stick thin girls so they can eat what they want… for now.) The software engineers I work with (most of whom voted for O) say, “you benefited from the system, shouldn’t you give some back?” I try to tell them that I didn’t ‘benefit’ they way they wish to imply, rather that I earned my MSCS while working overtime over the course of many years and never took money and only ever paid my own way and I’ll choose what to give and to whom I give it to. I would rather not be required to support the masses compliments of their own vote. I can’t even begin to talk firearms with these folks I work with as they usually just shake their heads. And I don’t think I’ve been ‘far out’ with what I’ve said, I don’t usually initiate it anyways. They admit if someone broke into their house meaning them harm their plan is to call the police or at worst they’d use a taser perhaps (which they don’t have) – yet they refuse to admit that what happened to the Cates or Petit family could happen to them. I guess I’m getting somewhat off on a tangent here. What all of the above says to me though is that many folks today are comfortable telling both themselves and others a lie because it fits a utopian view that is both ‘noble’ in concept and one that they are most comfortable hearing themselves say.
People are so afraid of the truth, they rather just ignore it. It’s like Gun Free Zones. Obama and a lot of other progressive/liberal folks (I realize not all of them) have encouraged gun free zones. Rather than admitting to themselves they are at least partially responsible for the recent school/gun free zone shooting, they place their anger on something else – rather than having to feel guilty. Unfortunately, that’s partially human nature, but also a sign of a weak mind. Admitting one’s mistakes take a strong person and most of those calling for gun control are nothing but cowards.
Its ALWAYS the liberals.
The answer to your problem is simple. Stay away from bars. You are never going to win an argument with drunk people. Pick the time and place to fight “your fight” when it will count the most.
(I know you knew all that. You just needed some reinforcement so I gave it to you 🙂 )
4 years ago, I decided that I was not going to win any fights in NY, so I moved to PA. Now I make my living recruiting NY’ers for gun training… and making money doing it. You see I Fucked my opponents.
I’ve been winning some fights here in NJ you just need to find even an ounce of logic that they can’t ignore and just pick away the lies from there. Mentioning sports shooting or hunting is generally a good way to start.
I’ve been winning some fights here in NJ you just need to find even an ounce o f logic that they can’t ignore and just pick away the lies from there. Mentioning sports shooting or hunting is generally a good way to start.
Though it’s not quite as dramatic, the feeling right now reminds me a little bit of post-9/11. People are still in shock. People are reacting with emotion.
Time is on our side, friends. let’s keep cool.
Reason and logic will prevail in the end. The danger we must stop is the knee-jerk emotional response that becomes a law like the GFSZA.
Reason and Logic? Since when?
We’re still eyeball deep in the consequences of the emotional aftermath of 9/11. What we are looking at is the beginning of a witch hunt.
RF you can move to Arkansas. Beautiful mountains, pretty women and you could move close to some of the best custom firearms builders in the world in Berryville(pop. about 5200)!!
Reason and logic will prevail? I would love to think so, but have you actually had any conversations at all with the typical American citizen? Have you witnessed anyone change their position based on reason and logic, even if you back them in to a reasoned and logical corner?
I appreciate your optimism and dearly hope that you are right and I am wrong.
At the very least, this country is laying down the red carpet for tyranny.
Thursday I had these types of conversations with two who are very anti gun. After a very long and I thought fact based conversation I really thought I had gotten through. They said things like, I never thought of it that way or I see your point….well since the NRA news conference, both are posting anti-gun rants and slamming the NRA for even suggesting arming teachers. And I had such high hopes!
WAS THAT REALLY YOU RF???? Well here is the logic you live in a ultra liberal sewer. You goto bars where big liberals hang out so find another bar out side of city limits where you can find good law abiding gun owners. Two you did right by leaving the ;liberal scum who insulted you do not deserve a response anyway. We can beat this I told you that yes you live in New England where liberalism is there god but the nation is muc much bigger than NE. We are with you thousands of viewers are with you we will win.
Chin up im with you so are almost all your readers. We are with you!!!!!
Easy on the blanket statements. New England also has freedom-loving Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Lets not alienate the foothold we have there. 🙂
I make a exception for Vermont.
VT and NH are chock full of pinko hippies and/or Massholes, and to my mind are pretty much hopeless causes unless the Green Mountain folk split off into their own Yankee state and disavow their statist leftoid infections. Alas I’m not as familiar with Maine, but if taxfoundation.org is anything to go by, it’s another hopeless case, and its penchant for electing RINOs like Snowe hasn’t helped any either.
Protip: move to rural Georgia 🙂
Or urban. We’d be glad to have you.
You’d be more than happy in the Peach State. I can recommend a couple good FFLs depending on where you’d like to move to.
Tennessee, to the north of the peaches, treats me well also…
also no state income tax in TN. =D
Y’all come, Robert! There’s a 4 BR house for rent just down the street from me. It’d be a good place for you to stay until you got to know the area and decided on where you’d want to settle on a more permanent basis.
I would highly recommend against coming to Michigan. Our Republican governor cowered under pressure and vetoed the elimination of Criminal Tolerance Zones. Had the Connecticut Massacre not happened, he was sure to have signed it into law.
As for arguing with a teacher. Never a good idea. Many of the teachers I know have no reference to the real world. They spend a lot of their time using the right, a.k.a. imaginative side of their brain, allowing them to communicate with students. Some of them haven’t learned the fine art of switching back to the left, a.k.a. logical side of the brain before re-entering the real world. Sad, but true…
Forget the People’s Republic of Austin and join us down here in San Antonio where guns are still welcome.
People’s republic of Austin? Guns are as welcome here as anywhere in the state. Sure, there are a lot of liberals in Austin, but it’s nothing like California or, apparently, Massachusetts.
He’s in Rhode Island. Mass is worse
Better variety of food and things to do in Austin, and probably a better Jewish infrastructure as well. And GT Distributors I believe is based in Austin, and there’s several good shooting range options in the area (Red’s indoor, Eagle Peak/Lone Star outdoor, Austin Rifle Club for a private range).
San Antonio does have the Alamo though, and AFAIK has a better Metal scene. I may have to take a trip down for the gun show on 5-6 Jan..
I finally figured this out as well. I figured it out when I saw the asinine comments at the Washington Post’s transcript of the NRA’s fairly innocuous press conference. Hatred, no logic, no willingness to consider or listen to another viewpoint. I feel like I am on a completely different planet. Do these people even hear what I hear?
Restrictions are coming. Buy what you want now and get plenty of mags.
Don’t be so sure. Our demur neighbor who lives in a gun-free home immediately asked us why we don’t have parents, teachers, and other staff bring guns to school. It was obvious at face value to her that armed good guys can stop armed bad guys.
And I took a friend to the shooting range about two weeks ago. He is purchasing a hand gun this week. Even better, both he and his wife are now going to get their concealed carry license in two weeks.
Finally, a friend of mine knows that I have a concealed carry license. I started gently nudging him to purchase a handgun and get his concealed carry license two years ago. The Aurora theater shooting pushed him over the edge. He decided that day that he had to get his concealed carry license in the next several months … although he did not approve of guns in pre-schools and schools. The Newtown Connecticut school shooting has now pushed him over the edge again. HE WANTS GUNS IN SCHOOLS NOW.
All of this started with my wife’s cousin. I learned about his concealed carry license. So I got mine. And then my wife got hers because I got mine. And then my dad got his because I got mine. And now three of my friends are getting theirs because I got mine. That’s six more armed citizens and staunch 2nd Amendment advocates all because my wife’s cousin had the courage to tell me about it.
Keep putting out the feelers as they say. And when someone is interested, take them to a shooting range.
“……………all because my wife’s cousin had the courage to tell me about it.”
“Keep putting out the feelers………”.
Exactly how it works.
There’s an old saying amoung salesmen.
” If you want to get laid, ask every woman you meet.
You get your face slapped a lot,but eventually you get laid.”
+1. For every screaming, hysterical and unreasonable anti, there are many more — those who have never handled a gun before– who will silently observe with more open minds.
Take them shooting. Show them how the proper use of a gun makes it a good tool, a sporting device, and a rescue device. I’ve introduced firearms to a couple of my friends who never shot before, and all continue to be keenly interested. The more people are inoculated into firearms, the more supporters we will have.
Well said. I’ve converted quite a few myself.
40+ years of the lefties controlling academia, the media and pop culture is bound to have an effect. Not only have they instilled a multitude of leftie values, but they’ve fundamentally trained people how to like being told what to think. And the worst part is that this trend is strongest and worst among the educated elite. Even if the GOP can eke out some victories on the redneck vote, a society where the vast majority of the elite despises the fundamental founding tenets of the nation cannot last long.
Yeah, everyone who doesn’t see things your way is a brainwashed idiot. That makes real sense.
Eventually, maybe sooner, the tide of gun control is going to wash you guys into remote enclaves in Texas and Georgia. You’ll be pariahs who feel safe only among your own kind. If you think that’s too drastic, don’t forget the true gun-rights advocates are a tiny fraction of gun owners at large. Even your fellow gun owners think you’re nuts, most of them anyway.
The tide of gun control cant wash any of me because it is more poisonous than any PCB carcinegenic that is sure to cause cancer, just by touching it!
Speaking of cancer causing problems, when is the Italian government going to realize they allowed foot in mouth disease in when you moved there?
You can only hope, Mike. Just like you and others on the wrong side of the issue hope for innocents to be murdered so you can be right.
As with most of your personal attacks which add nothing to the discussion, this says more about you than it does about me. I don’t think anybody wants kids to get killed. I blame you guys for it, but it’s sort of a side effect of your insane passion for gun-rights. It’s not that you want people to get hurt.
By the way, did anyone else notice how the discussion these last couple days has switched to one in which you pro-gun guys are talking about the children. That’s funny after all the times you’ve mocked us with snotty remarks like “yeah, it’s all about the children.” La Pierre, and now the rest of you, are regular UNICEF sponsors now aren’t ya?. This only goes to show how wishy-washy and insincere you are.
“As with most of your personal attacks which add nothing to the discussion, this says more about you than it does about me.”
Oops, you let something slip there Mikeynumbers. If you read the comments section of the NY Times, Huffpo and other media outlets, you find antigun people spouting all kinds of hate filled violent filth. Which like you wrote, says something about them and adds nothing to the discussion.
I am a Veteran. I am law-abiding. IAM A CITIZEN.
You’re right, citizen and veteran. Any gun control person who spouts personal attacks at one of you guys is as much an idiot as those among you who do it.
You sound pretty brain-washed to me.
Evidence, Mikeb, evidence. More and more people are buying guns and getting carry licenses. But feel free to base your judgement on snap polls and news reports.
Most of the people who are buying guns already have several. The reports of new buyers being so many are exaggerated, just like the huge increase in female shooters, all designed to normalize your sick obsession.
But we’ve seen this week several formerly strong supporters of gun-rights jump ship. Multiply that across the whole country and what do you think it spells for your movement?
I took a tour of my local gun stores earlier this week. I talked with people waiting in line for an employee to address them. Most of them were gun owners but were new to the AR platform and wanted to buy their first. They decided to get one because of the pending AWB. I saw a few of them were traveling from store to store looking for the best deal.
As I said, first time buyers are rare.
I wouldn’t say rare. There were a fair number of new to guns buyers. Not half but a good many of them. It’s all anecdotal anyway. I’m not sure how either side can easily confirm their numbers. But existing gun owners talk to new gun owners more than anti-gun people talk with new gun owners. Our anecdotal numbers are most likely closer to the truth.
I wouldn’t mind another gun owner here, there is lots of open space. i’m sure we can squeeze you in.
The NRA should have called for armed teachers.
The public isn’t ready for that. Presenting the idea before it’s time would hurt them by making them look radical and out of touch.
Agreed. I think they support it, but people aren’t ready to hear that
The NRA should take a page out of Obama’s community organizing playbook and announce it will sponsor a gun owners rally in Washington DC when Biden releases his AWB recommendations. I don’t know how many people would show up but given the stakes, I’m guessing a lot and it might be enough to give the House Republicans enough cover and incentive to kill any radical proposals. Thanks to government regulations, the gun community has a lot of existing infrastructure, (gun stores, gun clubs, state NRA reps, gun ranges, training classes, ex military and police, etc) and they could be called upon to coordinate the logistics at a local level. This administration doesn’t like gun owners and I’m guessing they would like organized gun owners even less and the threat of a rally might be enough to neuter the whole AWB proposal by delaying its release.
I like how the individuals that are supposedly against violence are the most violent and cruel while asking for “reasonable conversation” or whatever they’re calling it now.
Every pro-gun person I’ve seen on this current issue has been calm and collected. It’s been the anti’s that have been the ones with words of cruelty *that tweet about NRA members needing to be gun violence victims*, threatening violence and raising their voices, getting mad.
My father has taught me many things over the years. He has a few little sayings that have stuck with me throughout my life. “The first one to raise their voice is probably wrong” and “The empty barrel makes the most sound” resound in my mind every time I am brought into a debate, since my family and friends know me as “the gun guy”.
That’s what we have going on here. All we can do is present calm logic, but their emotions get in the way. “One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic.” We have 26 tragedies on our hands. They don’t really care about any statistics because they’re focused on the tragedy at hand. They are simply incapable of processing logic if it goes against these fresh feelings. We’re all feeling them, and they sting, but they are going to use it to dictate what goes on here.
The amount of people who die each year in the US due to “mass shootings” is negligible compared to other things. But they don’t care about saving people. If you wanted to save a large number of lives, or kids, I can think of 10 better ideas in under a minute that would do more than an AWB. It’s an agenda run completely on feelings. They can’t control their feelings and see the truth beyond that.
And that, my friends, is the definition of immaturity.
The writing really was on the wall. Even before the first time he was elected.
You think a government that wants to tell you it is illegal not to purchase something isn’t itching to tell you everything else it stands for?
I actually kind of wonder what Leghorn is thinking these days.
Maybe it’s not as bad as it feels:
I was born in RI, went to LaSalle Academy… I feel your pain. Fortunately I now live in Colorado.
Colorado Dems are submitting new AWB ban legislation at the state level by January.
And they now control both of the state houses and have a democrat for a governor
Yes, this sucks. The CC permit process is much much better than RI but the current government doesn’t bode well for the future.
Come to Florida. You’ll find plenty of gun people down here.
Thanks for sharing this Robert. You should have offered them a cranberry juice lol
I had a simmilar experience recently but had to keep my mouth shut because I was at work and it was a regular patients family member. My partner and I are both pro-gun and 2A and while I am very pro-1A also I was greatful to have the cold weather on our side. Normaly after our business is done, the family member follows us to the ambulance to chat.
Good Lord man, I’m glad you’re okay. I realized the same thing while debating with someone awhile back. Both myself and my “opponent” were calm, polite, and respected each other’s opinion, but unfortunately we eventually reached the conclusion that our views were wholly irreconcilable. That’s the sad truth of the matter: sometimes there are some issues we cannot come to common ground on, so we have to part ways until next we clash on the proverbial field of battle, neither of us wanting to hurt anyone but ready to fight to the bitter end for what we hold dear. I just hope that in this case the proverbial battlefield doesn’t turn literal.
Now you have had a taste of the hatred and the venom that was spewed onto those of us that served our country in a time when people like Jane Fonda thought it was ok to spit on us. It takes a little piece of your soul to have your fellow Americans showing their hatred of you like that.
You’ve been knocked down, RF. Whether you stay down is up to no one but you. Texas might be a good idea. It may be time to split this country between the left and the right.
I hope we can do it peacefully. But don’t count on it. Amazing how violent the people who are against guns can get.
Instead of splitting the country can we maybe offer the left our moon, or Pluto?
A divided country is conquered country. This seems to be the strategy at hand. Is the momentum irreversable? I pray not.
Federalism is preferred, but if 50%+1 would rather be leeches then secession may be necessary.
And what about the people who don’t clearly fall on either side? The “right” side wouldn’t have me – not unless policies are different than that of their current politicians. And the “left” side would reject the views I have regarding my right to defend myself, which is a right I value greatly.
That’s an example of why splitting the country up into two extremes doesn’t work. There are a lot of people who aren’t defined so black-and-white.
Maybe, but when you have a federal government grown to monstrous size and he left (and some on he right) working hard to make every issue and dispute a question of federal policy, there is little room for nuance and compromise. Govt has gotten so big and all pervasive that the only options are o control it (i.e. work to put like minded folks in charge) or be trampled by it. Simply ignoring it is no longer an option.
Then decide what principles are most important to you and choose a side. The fight is coming.
Sorry to be the geek here,,, but I’m reminded of Queen Amidala’s quote from Star Wars,
“So this is how liberty dies… with thunderous applause”
As terrible as the “first” three movies were (my opinion) thats a very good reference you just made.
While I do applaud the absolute perfection of your quote, I am disappoint that it had to come from the prequels. Bleh.
I may (or not) out geek you with this quote from River Tam in the film “Serenity”. She was also a character in the TV series “Firefly”
“People don’t like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right. We’re meddlesome”
I don’t know if the director Joss Wheedon intended for the show to appeal to gun folks, but it seems everyone I know who’s into them is also into the show. The message I’ve gotten from watching the film and series more than once is that people should have the right to make their own decisions, good or bad, but also then take personal responsibility for the end result.
If someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back.
Sounds pretty 2A to me.
Love the firefly and Star Wars quotes, they are so fitting.
I find it fairly impressive that Whedon could write the libertarians/secessionists as heroes in the Firefly ‘verse, while personally being a hardcore pinko. Just shows how creative his imagination is, I guess.
I was wrong when I wrote that President Obama wouldn’t touch gun control politics. I was wrong when I believed that America had shifted so far towards firearm rights that the extension of those rights had acquired the patina of inevitability. And I’m sorry for my stupidity.
You’re not alone in this, RF. I independently arrived at the exact same erroneous conclusion, no echo chamber required.
What I underestimated was the incredible depths of suppressed fear and resentment about guns among those opposed. I guess some of the signs were there — acceptance of CCW but instant revulsion at the very idea of open carry — but it took a single, shocking tragedy to light the fuse on these latent emotional bombshells.
Personally, I am shocked and horrified at the reaction to the proposal to simply do more of something we already do, namely putting armed first responders in schools. It is disgusting hypocrisy to first acknowledge that we already station sworn officers in high schools then, in the next breath, starting fear-mongering about guns in schools.
Like I said, right there with you.
I’ll tell you how to beat them… You decide if it worth the effort or not.
Trust me on this… I do this for a living.
Quietly invite a few people in small groups or 1 to 2 to come to the shooting range with you. Start them off with .22 lr in pistols and rifles. After they get to liking it, if you feel they are up to it, more then into larger caliber. Let them shoot the .22’s for free, but charge them for the cost of the larger calibers. Make sure you do not give them anything too overwhelming. Break out the AR-15 and have them shoot some .223. Even the women can handle that because it is low recoil… but be sure to start with .22 lr.
Be sure give them good gun safety training. Then give them the whole personal protection and anti-tyranny lecture.
Do this with a few small people in the bar. After a few weeks of doing this… you will not have to say anything in your bar… these people will be doing the arguing for you.
Do not invite the whole bar to the range. Stick to small groups of 1 or 2 people that you can control and seem open minded.
+1, that’s actually doing something.
How can 1 person be a group? Lol
With multiple personalities and a couple of changes of clothing!!
It was hopeless in Wisconsin RF. doyle constantly said Wisconsinites don’t want concealed carry. He vetoed it 2 or 3 times because it passing the cty. board meant nothing to him. Walker weathered a shitstorm because of his “dangerous policys” & we all knew that was code for ,good citizens protecting themselves. Its insanity & its maddening, I just keep in mind we are dealing with 1 to 2 year old kids mentally, Randy
So he said the people dont want it when the numbers showed otherwise?
Seriously how do these brainless fools have any ground to stand on?
That is exactly what he said. I talked to an FFL friend of mine & he said doyle was some kind of former peace corp worker. In one of the votes IM, it passed veto proof & doyle & co. leaned on the weakest board member till he caved & we didn’t get it. Of course doyle had his armed cops by his side,That was totally different. We threw their f’n asses out, Randy
Don’t forget, Wisconsin governors are compelled to live inside the Madison echo-chamber.
I still see a glimmer of hope in the Great Frozen North… perhaps it’s the outdoor culture, maybe it’s the fact that there are so many stereotypical Midwestern Moms that are insanely protective of their brood, but everybody I’ve talked to about it is all for their innate natural right to keep and bear arms.. for sport, protection, hunting, or just because they can. Even my local gun store has kept all their current stock at the price it was when they stocked it.
Come on down. We don’t even have snow shovels in Houston. Rights aren’t about needs.
Thats no fun if you can’t take a header on an icy sidewalk Shark, Randy
Or loose your ice house in the lake, I mean come on there is no fun without that!!!
Could have suggested that he doesn’t NEED alcohol, and society should decide that we’ve had enough of the drunk driving carnage and it’s time for prohibition…
Good point. Last I checked there was once in our history a ban on alcohol. Clearly that didnt work out as people still use it today to exercise their first amendment
I would be a very unhappy person if it was illegal to have my responsibly-enjoyed adult beverages.
Same here, I like my Sam Adams and an occasional cigar to go with it. But I can deffinatley appreciate the irony of a drunk saying we dont need guns.
Well, there’s more alcohol-related driving deaths than gun-related homicides. You could argue that closing the bars would save more lives than any kind of gun control.
Except these scum aren’t interested in saving lives. Guns look scary and make scary loud noises – that’s all that matters to these cowards. They would gladly see the body count increase ten fold if it meant that they didn’t have to have their girlish sensibilities offended by the thought of a gun.
The scene in the hospital where some doctors are fixing to operate on Chekov for a head injury in the Star Trek movie “The Voyage Home”, Captain Kirk herds them into a small room and one of the doctors sees Kirks phaser and asks with a sneer, “Is that a GUN?!” That’s how you can know gun haters; a lot of them accentuate the word GUN. Lol
I have posted a number of times here , it’s not the guns they hate, it’s US.
I have been involcved with politics and gun advocacy for over 30 years and how this is unfolding is not surprizing.
the ammount of media women consume is unbelieveable and I have not talked to a single women who hasen’t brone into sobbing over this at least once.
we are dealing with a deeply hurt and emotional group of people .
cut the NRA some slack. people this emotional should not be provoke. ideological consistany will not carry the day.
this is going to be a long hard struggle , and I think this incedent undid the progress the gun rights cause has made in the last decade. at least in public oppinion.
sorry your evening turned out so poorly at the bar.
Instead of “people this emotional shouldn’t be provoked” it should be “people this emotional shouldn’t be allowed to vote”.
When asked if I am packing, my answer is “If I was and I told you, then it wouldn’t be concealed, now would it.”
When dealing with borderline unhinged types, any HINT that you might be carrying is an invitation to a trumped-up and false charge of brandishing.
Those numbers would have been reversed here. Come on down to Alabama.
Our fearless leader, RF, said “I was wrong when I wrote that President Obama wouldn’t touch gun control.”
I hate to say I told you so….. Actually, I just lied. Truth is… I LOVE to say “I told you so.” I say it often, in fact. So, once again, I bask I my correctness. I told you Bitches! Esp. you DF Obama voters who said “well, he didn’t do advance a gun control agenda in his first term. ” Oh, how naive you are, young Paduwons.
BTW, Saying that felt good. A small moment of glory is what is otherwise dark, gloomly, times.
Keep fighting, RF!
The antis are generally an immature and irrational lot. I truly worry about the human condition – and I’ve seen humanity in some dark places. When I drive, intend to assume that I’m surrounded by idiots. It’s much the same when I’m dealing with antis. The arrogance to vilify something that they have never used continues to underwhelm me. It would be like me blaming Chinese algebra for the violence in society.
RF, you’ve developed a wonderful place to inform and unify us. It’s also nice to vent some.
Remember this feeling Robert, but don’t let it rule you. That way lies paranoia and militia membership. They say a conservative is a liberal who’s been mugged. Think of this as your mugging. Recognize the threat, but don’t exaggerate it. And let’s all get down to the business of winning the maintenance of our freedom.
That way lies paranoia and militia membership.
What’s paranoid about joining a militia? Honestly, I think we might be able to set the government straight once and for all if we saw a massive increase in organized militia membership after this fiasco. It’s one thing for them to tell voters to go to hell, it’s another thing for them to tell millions of armed and organized voters to go to hell.
I would love to see a ‘Million Militiamen March’ on DC, where at least 100k people open-carried to demonstrate for the Second Amendment.
I’d love it (no way it would happen) if we could get almost every gun owner in the country (carrying too) to march on DC.
Hey count me in!! I have said on here just in the last few days how I wished we could take 500 or a 1000 gun owners to DCand march on the Capitol and stand up for our rights!
Let me know when and off we go!!!
RF, you just had the debate I’ve been having all day on facespace with an old liberal friend from high school. Shouting about repealing the 2A because its better for society. Talking about the rights of equality and rights of gay marriage, and telling me maybe I don’t have a right to a gun. Wait for it, she works at a college. I’ve become very libertarian in recent years, believing its not the governments job to regulate marriage, commerce, and guns. I believe the government has the ability to oppress the people for their own gain (majority rule). Oh, and RF, I’m a police officer, we’re not all out to get you. A few bad apples in the bushel. Nowhere near the ratio of bad politicains. Most I work with oppose what is going on, and would never confiscate guns for citizens.
” Most I work with oppose what is going on,and would never confiscate guns for citizens.”
Ryan when the time comes you want be asked to.
You will be told to stay out of the way.
Can you say U. N. Peacekeeping Forces?
Firearm rights spreading throughout the land was never inevitable. Past results are no guarantee of future performance. A single act of violence can bring forth great change and unintended consequences as it did when a young man shot and murdered an archduke ushering in WW1.
Yes, Robert you do live “in a proto-fascist state with a populace that not only ignores the government’s suppression of individual liberty but actively promotes it”. Fortunately, different places in America have different outlooks and beliefs, and other places will be a better fit for you to live.
You were not being stupid. You are optimistic and passionate about helping people achieve and hold to their rights as human beings not to be victims. It is more than a business for you. It is a personal Mission. Since political battles can still be fought the war is not lost or over. Like many wars victories and defeats will ebb and flow.
“Are you saying you’d sacrifice those twenty kids for your freedom?” the local demanded.” That man is saying that parents throughout America should give up the right and means to defend their children and themselves for his choice to submit to slavery.
Take a breath and relax, and go live in a place where you are not surrounded by enemy tribesman. Good night General Farago.
Representatives in the state of Missouri have proposed that teachers be allowed to carry concealed on school property. http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=743902
Robert, consider PA. You can blog from anywhere, and the people in pa are reasonable, and we have good gun laws. The only crappy thing is you can’t hunt with semiautomatic rifles… but it really doesn’t matter. We are permissive shall issue, no feature bans, and there are tons of private clubs. CC and OC friendly. Even the democrats in this state are gun people, and the pa democrats outside of Philly and Pittsburgh are more like left-libertarians. You can buy like 50 acres for cheap and set up your own hickok45 style shooting range and be left the f*ck alone.
5,000 per acre in PA. 50 x 5000= 250,000 . Just so he knows what he is getting into.
The price of land per acre varies wildly based on where it is in pa and what is around it, from as little as $500 to well over 5k.
I’m in PA and live in a neighborhood where I know all my neighbors (a lot of them even liberals) and I regularly shoot in my backyard. Not only do people leave me alone, very often the neighbors will stop by and shoot with me. I make it a point to be VERY respectful about when I shoot. If the neighbors are having a party, if it’s early in the morning or late in the evening, if it’s Sunday, if the cows are out, etc. then I refrain. I’ve had quite a few liberal neighbors call me to dispatch rabid raccoons. The local constable knows me by name and stops by to show me his latest toys whenever he acquires them. The point is to win people over by showing mutual respect, helping out when possible, and building good neighbors. BTW, there’s also a nice stream to fish. PA rocks!
I keep shaking my head when I hear what is going on around me.
Adam Lanza lashed out at the world. He terrorized our country and murdered children because he wanted to be remembered and to leave the world worse for it. He wanted a legacy of fear, anger, hate, and blame. He got it.
Through the media, the mobs, the politics, the panic, and the vitriol, Adam Lanza – psychopath and murderer – got his final wish. He won.
Apparently I haven’t met my quota for arguing unpopular positions today, but… I strongly disagree.
The picture of Adam Lanza that is emerging is NOT of the same type as previous psychotic rampage killers. He left no manifesto, posted no Facebook screeds, frightened no friends with repeated dark ranting about revenge.
This was a mentally ill, deeply maladjusted boy who had no place in society and little capacity to understand why. His frightening violent outbursts and instinctual standoffishness would have been at odds with his strong emotional ties to his mother, the only person to stick with him.
When it looked to him like that one lifeline was to be ripped away from him, as his overwhelmed mother worked to have him committed for his safety and that of his mother and his community, he had a psychotic break and lashed out in terror and anger. He committed acts of unspeakable evil not because he wanted to be noticed, but because he imagined his mother was institutionalizing him because she loved those kids at Sandy Hook more.
That’s my theory, at least.
Who cares. He’s burning in a lake of fire now.
If you don’t care about what causes these tragedies, how can you work to prevent them?
I’ll stop there to prevent a FLAME DELETED gap in my comment.
No, I don’t care what caused him to do it. Whatever it was cannot, and will not ever be found or prevented. I only care that I was not there to stop him, nor was anyone else.
Come on down, sir. We’re a weird state at times, but there’s plenty space to go around. And you’ll get used to the heat. We’d be happy to have you.
Well, Robert, I’m not sure what circles you socialize in, but welcome to stone cold bigotry.
I don’t know if you are old enough to remember back to the Vietnam war, where people of the same ilk were spitting on returning servicemen and calling them ‘baby killers’.
Gun owners are their replacement objects of irrational hatred. They were disgusting and evil and wrong then, as they are now. They deserve nothing but contempt. I will render upon them contempt of the most politically incorrect temperature I can muster. I’m tired of being nice. If I’m going down, I’m going down fighting, with the love of Hashem in my soul and righteous anger in my heart.
Signed: A righteous Gentile.
He’s right – there has been a shift. Mainly by the soft brain idiots that compose that “swing voter group” we hear about every four years. People I know that, two weeks ago, were on the side of God-Given-Rights have been snowballed by the media, social media and all the other koolaid drinking water cooler talk into saying that “the least we can do is get rid of those high capacity ‘clips’.” You know the type – it’s all about fitting in for these people. Wearing green, blaming guns, nodding yes when websites say they are going “black” for a minute this morning – everything thing that makes the logical brain of a gun owner tremor in pain like so much bleach being poured into an open wound.
The biggest thing we can do is not get tired of the fight. And it does get tiring. But if we think that someone else will do it for us, we are wrong. Keep writing and talking and don’t let stupid people bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Whenever I feel myself growing tired of it I turn on the rebel music and am instantly rejuvenated.
Those Irish Republicans know how to write an inspiring tune.
No matter how demoralized some of us are now we can’t give up the fight. Never. Ever.
Even if we are forced underground by onerous new laws let’s not take a single step back.
But let’s fight like hell to ensure they have to bleed before they can get any of their bullshit passed. I want to see all their political careers fucking ruined over this. These anti-rights pols are the enemy. They’re the same type of fascists our fathers and grandfathers fought against. The same disgusting, savage little cretins that exploit the emotions of the ignorant masses and use the state as a weapon against the people.
They can’t win. We can’t allow it.
“In an era of stress and anxiety, when the present seems unstable and the future unlikely, the natural response is to retreat and withdraw from reality, taking recourse either in fantasies of the future or in modified visions of a half-imagines past”
“What the hell has happened to the idea of individual responsibility and freedom? The NRA should have called for armed teachers. And parents. And citizens. Not government intervention.”
Welcome to the New America, Mr. Farago.
Individual liberty is as obsolete as hand crank-started cars, and considered just as quaint. The America which said the individual had the right and responsibility to pursue liberty and their own happiness is considered racist, environmentally irresponsible, and socially backwards.
Today such people are not the majority-yet. If the statistical trends on which segment of the population is having more kids & emigrating pans out, its only a matter of time before all of us from Texas to R.I. are living under a blue-state government. The Republican Party as we know it today will be extinct in national politics in 10 years, or perhaps sooner. Looking at the politics of other “first world” nations like the UK and Canada the party options look like this :
Double Secret Probation Left-wing,
Batshit crazy militant left wing,
And a ” conservative in name only” party ,( which is left of our Democrats)
That dynamic is our political destiny. The Republican Party will fade from the national spotlight or turn left as they struggle to retain relevance, and some ultra-leftist party will rise up like the Tea Party’s Antichrist to play the radical. Liberalism is here to stay, and my advice to Robert Farago and others here are to read up on the recent history and politics of the UK. One day we’ll all have our own “Robert Neville” moment like poor RF has where we realize that we’re men walking around in a world dominated by (leftist) vampires.
THIS is what I’m absolutely terrified of seeing come to fruition here; a one sided party system that comes in varying degrees of insanity. I’ve been telling people pretty much your exact words for years now. Voting in European politics is like asking me if I want chocolate, dark chocolate, or triple chocolate with fudge flavored ice cream when I just want vanilla. The only real choices people have in Europe is the left, the very left, or the extreme left. Sure, there are other parties that have a space on the ballot, but let’s not kid ourselves. Who gets all the attention in a region of the world where anything with so much as a tinge of right-wing thought is seen as taboo?
Should have asked them how life was being an utter coward.
Nice polite and respectful is fine. Till a point. Once that point is reached you have no responsibility to them, or other nearby patrons to be polite and respectful any longer.
Should have told them to pound sand. Then ask which one of them was going to volunteer to come take your guns.
No one is going to be able to take your gun with the 30lb handguard you put on it, they’d break their back.
Good point. Works for me.
It’s events like that that I don’t socialize much.
But good on you Robert, you kept your cool and did the right think.
I’ve often wondered about Texas myself, the Florida humidity is terrible on my frowned upon ‘ten guns’.
First they came for the NRA, and I did not speak out because I was not a member.
Then they came for the Republican Party, and I did not speak out because I was not a Republican.
Then they came for the conservatives, and I did not speak out because I was not a conservative.
Then they came for the conservatives, and I did not speak out because I was not a conservative.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
If I may chime in here with my $.02…
I think their responses are totally understandable, I just don’t think they know it.
Their entire worldview is collapsing in on them. The all-powerful state can’t protect them, they have to take up personal responsibility for their own protection, and their own safety. The state, which since around the 1930s or so, has provided for people, social security (“security” is in the very name itself, so it has to be safe and secure!!) for example, or the socialist welfare programs of Europe, is cracking under the pressure of the modern world.
It’s all crashing down around them, governments around the world are quickly running out of cash (if they’re not already totally broke), cutting back services, and those whom you encountered in that bar haven’t fully come to terms with it; to terms with the concept that things are going to have to change.
Just like the idea that Social Security or Medicare may not always be there, they’ll have to face the realization that the police, (or even fire fighters and ambulances…) won’t always be there to help them when they need them.
They hate that. The very concept of taking personal responsibility for their own defense, that their own lives are of value, and worth fighting for, is something they haven’t seriously considered at best, and are actively opposed to at worst.
They have, without realizing it, embraced the faith of today, the faith of Nihilism. Nothing is worth it to those people. They are on course for the grave, and don’t care.
Not in so many words, but they told you the truth.
In vino veritas
I feel your pain. But I’m in greater pain. RI can’t be worse than NJ.
Plenty of jobs down here in the Lone Star State.
We’d love to have you.
Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose.
If you do come down to Texas, I’ll see about sending a housewarming gift of a six-pack and a box of Speer Gold Dot .45
Robert, please consider relocating to the majestic Pacific Northwest which offers spectacular scenery and just enough people. Boise Idaho has been rated one of the best places for a man to live. Oregon has great micro-brews, the best roasted coffee, and access to freshly caught smoked salmon with Portland having more strip clubs than any other city per population. Lastly, Washington State is around here someplace.
PS Don’t forget that located in the greater Portland metro area are several of your regular site readers.
Yes, Washington is here, with better gun laws than Oregon, and 75% fewer hipsters. And the SAF.
New Orleans is nice.
I’m happy that I wasn’t there. Somebody would have gotten bitch slapped by yours truly.
I have lost all tolerance for stupid people. Maybe it’s old age, but I prefer to think that it’s wisdom. Whatever, I’ve said it before and I will reiterate: Don’t engage with a$$holes. Leave them alone in their stupidity.
Bloomberg.com: Gun-Control Support Modest Even After School Shooting (Pew research)
“There is only a modest tilt toward gun control following Newtown, not a sea change,” Michael Dimock, associate research director for the Pew project, said in an e-mail. “Levels of support for gun control still fall far short of where they were as recently as 2008.”
most Americans say the protection afforded by gun ownership outweighs the risk to other people. He said opinions also are slow to change because 8 in 10 Americans said they feel strongly about the issue.
Two-thirds of Americans said assault-type weapons make the country more dangerous… 49 percent oppose a ban on the (assault-type) weapons, while 44 percent said they’d support such a measure
Pew researchers found majorities of women, blacks, Democrats and people who live in the Northeast put a higher priority on gun control. Men, whites and Republicans were more likely to support gun rights.
Opposition to the NRA was somewhat higher 12 years ago”
Thank you for posting that article. It’s nice to see some hope in this. If we can better demonstrate that not everyone is on board with this knee-jerk useless legislation, hopefully we can get through this without any more infringements of our rights before the media-frenzy and the mobs they whip up can settle back down.
I think the mass media attempts to use the old advertising sales trick to manipulate and motivate people into buying by stating “everyone wants one or this is the future, etc”. Many people don’t want to be left out and “jump on the bandwagon”. In the case of guns, I am pleasantly surprised that more people haven’t been goaded into joining the gun-grabbers. The Internet is the modern day Gutenberg Printing Press. Hopefully, someday the truth will set the lemmings free from the manipulations of the pied pipers elitists who rule society.
“The firearms freedom we cherish was already paid for in blood. We honor the memory of the people who fought for those rights, who fight for all innocent life, by defending our right to armed self-defense.”
Bill Whittle of PJ Media gives a fantastic speech about how we owe it to our ancestors who sacrificed for the God-given freedom(s) we enjoy in America today, but are slowly being eroded, to defend those freedoms.
Stand strong, Independent Man!
“Are you saying you’d sacrifice those twenty kids for your freedom?” the local demanded.
I dunno…. but twenty college professors is certainly doable….
I am thankful for TTAG and the armed intelligentsia being here to remind me that I’m not alone, cause man, it’s been a rough week.
It’s ironic that you had this conversation in a bar.
“I see you’ve got a beer there, Bob. Are you drinking it for health reasons? No? So you don’t need it then. And how many children do drunk drivers kill every year? Would you support me in proposing a ban on the sale of beer? Why not, Bob? How many children have to die for your freedom?”
+1 I was waiting for that argument… Took a loooooong time.
Come here to Texas. it was 81 degrees temp just other day.
Sorry to hear that RF.
I would say move to Sunny California, but to be honest it is just as bad here and going to get worse, hence we are looking to vote with our feet.
Regardless I feel your pain. I have been called an N* hater because I voted for the Morman. I have been told that I was a P#ssy because I believed in uninhibited firearms ownership. People in this country have stopped thinking logically. Everything has been spun into emotion. If you are rich or poor, gay or straight, Christian or Jew, you now fall into a category so you can be exploited.
We stopped being Americans….
At some point something is going to give, unfortunately I have no idea when or how that will be.
Really great writing there. More story like than most stuff, really good. And we will always have room for another guy with 10 guys (or more) in Florida.
Robert, come visit Oklahoma, and I’ll show you how things should be. I am an adjunct professor at OSU, as well as an entrepreneur. I was encouraged and warmed by my fellow citizens and colleagues this week. On Monday, my employees and I met a former professor and a distinguished colleague, both trusted and respected mentors, for an afternoon of shooting. It was a great event. Aside from that, I have heard no anti 2A comments this week. In fact, it has been quite to the contrary. Comments overheard at job sites, pawn shops, and my favorite deli all reaffirmed my faith in my neighbors. Maybe you’re just not in the right place.
People are more and more ready to sacrifice freedom for the security provided by the government.
Anybody having similar issues within their families? I am. These are people I know and love and they too have grown up with firearms and hunting.
It makes me fear for the direction our country is headed and with what ease they will relinquish our rights.
Ever wonder what reporters talk about when they don’t know the camera is on? Gun control. Well, making fun of the NRA and all gun owners.
I saw this online and wanted to share because it shows some of the behind the scenes elitism of the gun control media.
Exactly the same scenario here in Seattle.
Which is a huge part of my reason for leaving.
Headed for “Free “America!
Come to Texas.
Awesome Tex-Mex, great beer, firearms freedom.
Actually, Washington has better gun laws than Texas. We need to defend them against the Seattle politicians, especially now. People leaving now would be especially bad timing.
Engaging in serious conversation with progressives is nothing but a waste of time for liberalism is a mental disorder. In the early 90’s, while running a mortgage banking operation in the Northeast for a California Thrift, I locked horns with my senior underwriter. She actually argued that if would be morally wrong to resist a crazed killer breaking into her home, in the middle of the night, with intentions of killing her children. She truly believed that her children’s lives weren’t worth any more than that of the perpetrator. The very survival of our country is in peril. Either we fight to protect our Second Amendment rights or risk losing the Republic.
How might one discuss concealed carry with a hopliphobe? I thought I could bring up taking responsibility for one’s personal safety. However that line of reasoning would have no traction with someone who doesn’t value their own life.
When the liberal news media sets the tone, sets the pace and defines whats right and wrong, any society is in trouble. It has to be, how can it be anything else, when the one system designed by our founders for truth and fact checking no longer functions in that capacity but serves one side, be it conservative or liberal.
They decide what people see and how they see it. Fast & Furious, Bengazi, George W. Bush being blamed for the financial crisis.. not the dems who voted to give out mortgages to people who could not afford it, No coverage of the fact that Obama has spent more money than any other president i US history and put our country in more debt than every before. I mean…com’on now, how can we go forward when the vast majority of Americans don’t even know where we are.
As I once told my English professor,
“No one needs ten books.”
Or when my mother said “No one needs an assault weapon” – “No one needs a 3,000 sqft house, two brand new cars, a 47″ TV….”
Totenglocke, that was the point I was going to make too. I would just go a little further…
No one needs an Iphone or an Ipad. No one needs an MP3 player. No one needs a computer. No one needs a TV. No one needs a family pet. No one needs more than one pair of shoes. No one needs jewelry. No one needs a car. People live just fine without any of those things. It’s one thing to say it is okay for society to dictate what people need when it is something you don’t own… it is quite different when they want to ban something that matters to you.
We can go even further than that. No one needs electricity. No one needs indoor plumbing. No one needs flush toilets. No one needs a bed. No one needs tables and chairs. They’re certainly nice to have, but people can and do live without them.
For those people who have medical conditions and who do need electricity, etc., to run their medical devices… sorry, we weren’t talking about you, just like we are not talking about the people who don’t have adequate police protection when we say that they don’t need guns. Realistically, no one has adequate police protection if the goal is to have the victimization of innocents prevented, rather than have the crime take place and hopefully have the perp captured later.
If we are going to reduce our existence to the barest of human needs, it’s going to be a very spartan existence. It’s not up to some third party to decide what any other person needs. That’s not liberty.
Liberty is the entire point of the United States– it is not optional, something to be discarded when it becomes inconvenient for the government and the frightened, effete masses who have been misled by the far left “mainstream” media. It is the most important thing, the worthiest of goals in and of itself, even more than illusions of safety (which actually make us less safe). Our coins have the word “Liberty” upon them, not “Safety.”
The people who are pushing gun control in the wake of the school shooting are attempting to do a cost/benefit analysis while looking only at the costs. Mass murders are rare, but in a country of more than 300 million, rare events happen with some regularity, and the media dutifully dances in the blood of the dead to push a political agenda before the victims are even laid to rest. They force us on the pro-gun side to respond in kind, when most of us would rather mourn the dead and save the politics for later.
Less than two tenths of a percent of people murdered each year are killed in mass murders. To infringe upon the Constitutional rights of tens of millions of lawful Americans who didn’t commit murder, not because these murders are somehow any worse than the rest of the murders, but because they are more telegenic and more appealing to the media, is the height of stupidity and hypocrisy.
Guns are unfortunately used to murder people, but behind each gun murder is a person who thought it was okay to kill someone. Anyone who thinks that a little gun law is going to stop these murders is engaged in the worst kind of wishful thinking. What does it take to get these people to realize that banning something does not make it go away? We banned drugs, but drugs remain readily available to anyone who wants them. When has a ban ever resulted in the item becoming unavailable?
Guns will always be available to criminals, and that includes the sanity challenged people that are usually behind these mass murders (many of which are not spur of the moment events, but are carefully planned for weeks or months in advance). They may be nuts, but they are not stupid– they will be able to get guns. Not legally, but they will get them, the same that people get drugs or anything else that they want but is illegal. Not that guns are the only way to commit mass murder, of course. Ask Tim McVeigh about that one.
People sometimes are confused by events like the Connecticut school massacre. They see that the guns were obtained through the legal market (which is not the norm as far as murder goes… but once again, mass shootings are 0.2 percent of murders or less), and they conclude that if the guns had not been obtained legally, the murders would not have happened at all.
That is a fallacy.
Criminals (and that includes people who have never previously been convicted of anything who are planning a mass murder– the act of planning such a murder is a crime) take the path of least resistance when they are looking for a murder weapon. For those who can, exploiting the legal market is that path, unfortunately. To think that blocking the easiest method for some criminals to get a gun will solve the problem is like thinking that if you dam a creek coming down the mountain, the water will no longer come down, but will stay up there.
Water, like a criminal, is looking for the path of least resistance. When one path is blocked, it does not give up responding to the force of gravity. It finds the path of next least resistance. You can block that too, but the water will find a way. It’s going to come down the mountain, one way or another.
The inability of the government to block importation or manufacture of contraband is once again demonstrated by looking at drugs. Drugs would actually be easier to block than guns– unlike most illegal drugs, guns will always have legal uses (police, military), which provide paths for them to fall into criminal hands that don’t exist with drugs. They’re also durable goods, unlike drugs, which must constantly be reimported to meet the demand. And we’ve shown that we are completely unable to prevent drugs from being readily available to anyone who wants them, despite decades of complete prohibition.
Not only that, but guns are already present in this country in the millions, and if anyone believes that passing a law banning possession of these guns is going to result in them all being turned in, you are dreaming. When Australia banned them in the 90s, the government got about 25% of them in the mandatory confiscation. In America, it would be even less, as we have a long history of distrust of government, especially one that would attempt to render us defenseless. It’s one of the things that led to this country existing in the first place.
If anyone thinks that making criminals out of millions upon millions of previously lawful citizens is going to have a positive outcome, he really is lacking in the ability to think rationally.
The only thing gun laws do is empower the people who would be deterred by lawful citizens being armed. To limit the ability of good people to obtain and carry their self-defense tools, which are used that way between 800,000 and 2,500,000 times a year in the US (depending on which estimate you use) because 20 people a year die in high profile mass murders, and the politicians want to be seen as “doing something,” even if that something does not actually improve safety, is itself unconscionable and indefensible.
People don’t like the idea of chaotic, dangerous things they can’t predict. Any time something bad happens, there is an impetus to “do something.”
Terrorists crashed planes into buildings and killed thousands of people, so we ended up with the war on terror and the TSA and all of their crotch-groping security theater. The economy crashed, so we ended up with the “stimulus,” quantitative easing, trillions of dollars of new debt, and a real unemployment rate which would be 10 percent plus if we counted people so discouraged that they gave up.
WHAT we do is not as important as that we are doing SOMETHING to fix whatever breakdown in society allowed something BAD to happen. There is an unspoken idea that when bad happens, it reflects a failure of society, which in this era usually means “not enough government.” The reality is that more government is usually the worst possible outcome, resulting in less safety, less liberty, and huge taxes to pay for all of that tyranny.
Now, as long as we are inviting the author into our states… it would be hard to do better than Arizona. No permit required to carry concealed or openly… and open carry is a real option here, as people actually do it and it is fairly common. You can get a permit if you want, shall issue, for purposes of reciprocity or to be able to carry into a place that serves alcohol. It would be hard to get more pro-gun than this.
Much better said, PP9, than my sarcastic comment.
Yep, same thing being in CA as a gun owner (depending on where you end up)…most of the sheep here are clueless. The responses I’m getting from my CA Facebook “friends” when it comes to my posts on the issues makes me want to puke. I realize how divided me and my “friends” really are. Austin ain’t bad I guess…but it’s hot as hell.
Rob, I’d recommend giving Ohio a look too. Our gun laws keep getting better and better. Recently the House and Senate passed a bill improving gun rights and after the shooting in CT the small liberal enclaves here screamed for governor Kasich to not sign it. Instead he told them flat out that he would not postpone signing it and signed it into law the next day. Our states response to this tragedy has been multiple county sheriffs and the state Attorney General coming out and saying we need armed personnel in schools and the Buckeye Firearms Association is providing free training to teachers who want to carry. We’re also in an interesting position because, per state law, schools are not automatically gun free zones – each school board gets to determine who is allowed to carry on the premises, so individual districts might start allowing teachers to carry.
Also, I recorded a news broadcast from the other night you might like (I’ll try putting it on Youtube….it’s about an hour and a half long, so I honestly have no idea if it will upload or not) of a “town hall” debate about guns that took place Thursday night at the Ohio State University. It had two leaders from anti-gun organizations, one psychiatrist, and two leaders from pro-gun organizations as well as about 100 people in the audience. While the anti-gun rhetoric from the anti’s was predictable, I was happy to see about 95% of the audience was pro-gun and couldn’t help but laugh at how badly the audience hammered the anti’s with facts that left them with no response other than “but…guns are SCARY”. One man in the audience came forward and spoke about how he and his family were the intended final victims of a spree killer with a “revenge” motive back in 1995. He said (not verbatim) “I know you keep saying we need to ban scary looking weapons for the sake of the children, but I can tell you there are four kids who are alive because I used my scary military-style rifle to stop him”. The man received a standing ovation from almost the entire audience.
Here here! Ohio is a pretty decent place, just avoid Cleveland. Though as a Kentucky Native, I do have to give KY the edge over Ohio.
Seriously, gun freaks, would the United States really be worse off now if all handguns had been banned 40 years ago, and if assault rifles and any semi-automatic firearms had never been permitted at all? It was all about hunting, or so you guys used to say back then. Why would anyone need anything other than a hunting rifle or a shotgun? No reason in hell.
Speaking of Hell, doesn’t that satanic Wayne La Pierre give any of you the creeps?
“Seriously, gun freaks…” is about the best way to start off an argument for which nobody will take you seriously.
Try to read the posts here objectively and then see if “freaks” is not appropriate, at least for some of the posters. And I wouldn’t expect anyone advocating some kind of gun control to be taken seriously on this site. Would you?
You don’t need a car that can go over 45mph, tobacco, alcohol, or sugary or fatty foods. The government knows what’s best for you, so you won’t get any of them any more. For your own safety.
FOR THE CHILDRENS!!
So, then, you’re saying that our ancestors had no need for personal protection? Are you freaking serious?
The Second Amendment was never about hunting or “sporting purposes”. Its always been about self-defense, and giving teeth to the words of the Constitution. Over the years concessions were made that perverted the true purpose to be about hunting and sports.
Hunting was so much a given in those days that it would make no sense for the Founders to pass an amendment to protect it. It would have been like an amendment to protect the right of Americans to keep and wear shoes.
Yes. First, you should be thanking the gun freaks – especially the concealed carry crowd. Why you ask? Well, the fact that an increasing number of people have been carrying concealed; HAS had a deterrent effect on crimes. Why? Because criminals don’t know who’s carrying and who’s not. Don’t you think there would be more home invasions if the criminals knew which homes didn’t own a gun? If you don’t believe this, then I invite you to put up a sign on your lawn stating proudly that you don’t own any firearms. You may not want to carry a gun, but YOU benefit because I do. In WWII, the Japanese were deterred from a ground attack on American soil because of America’s civilian ownership of guns. Finally, our soldiers have been an effective fighting force, much because of farm boys and girls who grew up handling firearms and hunting. Our soldiers were known to be crack shots specifically because of this. So, without the benefit of American civilian gun ownership, you might just be speaking German instead of English or depending on your ethnicity you might not be here at all.
It’s unfortunate that so many people have such little understanding about firearms, ballistics, self-defense, and our country’s Constitution. I would hope for more from folks that like to think of themselves as intelligent. These people have been watching too many action films if they think criminals stop with one shot, it’s easy to hit a moving target that’s shooting back at you, there’s never more than one attacker, don’t come armed to the teeth, don’t wear body armor, etc. Why does one need something like a AR15? Because they are made to stop today’s modern threats – muskets just aren’t nearly as efficient. We need to start educating the anti-gunners so they can have realistic discussions with us.
Obvious troll is obvious. No cookie for youse!
And you don’t need them 10″ high heels or the right to free speech either!!! Nighty Nighty Queeny!!!
“Why would anyone need anything other than a hunting rifle or a shotgun?”
You are not to decide what anyone needs.
So, Robert, you’re letting two idiots in a bar with too much to drink effect how you see the whole issue? Really?
No. Read again.
It’s cumulative. This is the second time I had to leave my sushi in a hurry (having been hassled by a harridan).
It’s also about the liberal school that my daughter’s in. My sky high taxes. The fact that RI is drafting its own assault weapons ban. And the lack of Texas beauties or Israeli swimsuit models. Well, a lot of stuff.
The women in Houston wear short shorts all year round. Altho , on the few days of cool weather we do have, the long johns they wear with them takes away some of the allure.
It’s cumulative. This is the second time I had to leave my sushi in a hurry (having been hassled by a harridan).
Screw that. Next time ignore them and eat. If they push it to being violent, well you know what to do.
We’re calling to you.
Similar situation with us; my wife and I eventually lost hope that Rhode Island would ever get its act together on taxes, political corruption, schools run for the benefit of teachers unions, (lack of) economic opportunity (since businesses quite rationally avoid that state like the plague) … for its since-FDR control by Democrats has so dumbed-down the population subservience and high taxes and potholed roads and poor schools now seem normal and acceptable. This is all a preview of the entirety of America if Obama consummates his vision.
We left for Florida in 2009, and our only regret now was not having done it a couple of decades earlier.
Go Galt and leave Rhode Island. As the old Cerrone car dealership commercials used to say: “You’ll be glad you did!”
Robert – I believe your debate at the bar could have happen but I do not believe it did happen.
When it was suggested pilots be armed, an overwhelming majority stated they did not want guns in the cockpit. I own guns, multiple guns. I just do not want to imagine loading up the car with them on a trip to Walmart or my local brewpub.
This website is not called “I’m Making Shit Up About Guns.” Just sayin’ . . .
Aw, how cute. You have a couple .22’s and you think that makes you an expert on all things gun related. Just because you’re scared to carry a gun for fear of shooting yourself in the leg doesn’t mean more responsible people shouldn’t be allowed to.
I carry pretty much anywhere I can.
I carry pretty much everywhere I go and train on a regular basis.
Dude stop hanging out at bars. Get a real typewriter and spend your free time working on the great American novel or a TV show about nothing.
That’s a good point. Responsible gun owners and champions of gun rights have no reason to be in “watering holes.”
Yeah, you should be in the parking lot doing monster bong-hits with mike.
St LOuis is cool and the gun signs don’t mean $hit
People moving to be with their own kind of people. Public discourse getting ugly and out of hand……Starting to sound a lot like 1859 again to me.
Except this time, we’ll have a chance of winning.
Texas was created from an influx of freedom loving people. Come on down Robert.
Yeah, if you ever get to read the names and birthplaces of those that died at The Alamo, I think you’ll be quite surprised at how international the Texas War for Independence was.
Good post. N.B.: Not “enervated,” but energized.
I like Austin, Tx, in my rear view mirror. When someone says, “They should shoot all gun owners……….”, I ask, “what with”? I quit with bars long time back. No place for opinions even now, I suspect. My Family and friends are lo key owners, pistols only types. As soon as I realize I am talking to an educated idiot about anything, anywhere, I find an excuse to leave, sometimes they find an excuse to leave first. (Full disclosure: I may not always be right, but, I am never wrong). We have to compromise somehow, every day, or there would be chaos. You would think the Government could also. However, not a compromise of anyone’s rights as we know them, but a solution to actively prevent attacks we have seen lately. That should be left to State/Local authorities, in my opinion. I saw a quote in news the other day, it actually surprised me. It was attributed to Nancy Pelosi, “We should enforce the laws we already have……….”. Ignore a threat to your life and liberty at your peril.
Stay out of watering holes.
Don’t hang with liberals.
Don’t let other men speak to you like that.
Its not only America its the rest of the world to. Everywhere you go, you will see that firearms owners are treated as second class citizens. I feel like a black man in a KKK meeting or like a muslim during the crusades or like a jew( or politcal dissident) during WW2. Our best bet is Yemen where as I understand it you only need to get a permit from Police once and you can buy whatever you want( exept explosive weapons, though you could get them wth demolition license, i believe) and when I say all you want I mean it: FA, suppressors etc.
Yemen – population approximately 25 million. Yea, I think all 80 million gun owners should pack up and take over Yemen so we can have our own country.
Four reasons (besides truly liberal gun laws) you should come to Texas:
1 – Awesome food. We have the most ethnically diverse population in the nation. If you want BBQ, we’ve got it. If you want Thai, its across the street from the BBQ. Persian Kabobs? Got those down the street. Mexican? YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW GOOD IT CAN BE!
2 – Jobs. We’ve got them. In November of this year, we added 146,000 non-farm jobs. Unemployment in November was 6.2%.
3 – No state income tax.
4 – Shiner Bock Beer.
Speaking as a proud Texan: We’d love to have you.
Fix the fear of open carrying and I might consider moving there.
Just might happen this legislative session. Welcome. 🙂
Even if OC is ‘fixed’, I’d only care insofar as it would prevent paranoia over printing. Though being able to carry my CZ97B OWB under my t-shirt would be nice!
Here’s hoping more schools see teachers getting written permission to concealed-carry. It heartens me to see Texas’ response to Newtown, even in liberal Austin.
The NRA is the enemy here. They gravely misrepresent my (and other gun owners I know) feelings toward the 2A. A lot of what the NRA spouts is for political purposes, and saying that “guns don’t kill people…” brazenly oversimplifies the matter for most peoples’ tastes. The NRA makes us all look a little nuts.
Why in hell would you believe Obama would not touch guns. Everything in his background says he would. He is doing everthing in his power to violate the Constitution in new ways every day he wakes up. He is bringing untold destruction on our economic, social, cultural, and moral realms. What in the hell do you know about Obama. Have you researched his past. You probably should have an FBI background check and 10 day waiting period before you publish any new articles exercising the 1st amendmemt. You know, spreading disinformation is dangerous. How could the founding fathers have forseen mass assauly media like internet, TV, Radio, etc.
“I was wrong when I wrote that President Obama wouldn’t touch gun control.”
That says it all. How many voted for him because they thought the same thing?
This is the ultimate distraction from the financial collapse looming around the corner. We’ll spend 6 months on this subject while taxes go up, the economy stalls, and our dollar slips further in value.
Robert, if you WANT to move that’s great. There are many wonderful places to live in this great land. At least for now. But if you want to move to a place where you are unlikely to encounter three (3) antis, I can’t think of any.
I don’t go to bars because you are required to go unarmed and I don’t.
If I ever do, it certainly won’t be to a place where I am likely to encounter a (several) badass wannabe fool(s) under the influence.
Come on down to Louisiana!! We love guns and the food is great!!
I really hate to sound like a tin hat but the irrational anger we’re seeing under the guise of “Righteous Indignation” is looking like mind control to me . Is Alex Jones right? We all know the tactics they’re using; the pattern is more and more predictable and looks like programing to me…. WTF, am I losing it or what?
My uncle and I (he’s also former Navy) were talking to another family member that’s a “True Believer” in what the Media is selling concerning gun control in the wake of Sandy Hook. We all were trying very hard not to let this turn into an argument and were successful in keeping calm. At the end my Uncle commenting along the lines that is seems like people minds are being hijacked. That’s been in the back of my mind for awhile now and wanted to put this out there….
You’re only now realizing the republic is circling the drain?
I’ve had experiences like you’ve had. All they proved to me was that people are sheep, and are content to be so. That is the world we live in. You can either choose to accept that they also want you to be a sheep, or you can persevere and fight it. America has, in one form or another, faced threats throughout history, and the hearts of men have been trouble by what has happened around them. The same thing happened in Nazi Germany: Just when everyone thought things were headed toward a bright future, the Jews started being blamed for everything, and gradually society went crazy.
I’m not saying this is the holocaust. But we are facing discrimination now. That is life. You have to fight for your rights and your life. People throughout history have faced hardship of one sort or another. Now freedom is facing hardship. Either you will stand up against that tide or you will fall. It’s a choice. At least, until you’re cut down, anyway.
The statist long march the our institutions is finally paying off- we have two+ generations of indoctrinated sheep who value emotion and were never tought how to think critically or use common sense. The 2nd Amendment is the last thing preventing this tyrants from exercising their ultimate dream: unrestrained power. Our country hangs by a thread.
Robert – I think we need to accept that this debate/discussion will continue to focus on this and other mass shootings, and we need to develop a reasonable strategy for how to discuss this with those who are rabidly anti-gun. I suggest the following strategy:
First, gain agreement from your opposite that there are 3 key issues/focal points being discussed in relation to this and many recent mass shootings:
1. The killer(s) mental health was in question, they were needing/getting treatment, or other warning signs that this person could possibly be a danger to themselves or others.
2. Virtually all these events occurred in a “target rich” environment where there was little chance of immediate response by LE, security personnel, or private armed citizens. Even in the VA Tech shootings campus police took some time to respond.
3. The killer used firearms, sometimes semi-auto, sometimes rifle, sometimes reloaded multiple times. (I believe to ignore this point is to lose the discussion immediately…we must accept the fact that the weapons used is going to be part of the public debate…for now)
Second, ask them to rank these 3 focal points in order of importance in causing the mass shooting. It would be difficult for most of them to argue about this order:
1. Mental health/state
2. Target rich environment
3. Firearms type or availability (usually this revolves around the severity of the event, should they have been able to access weapons, etc.)
Third, ask “Then why we aren’t discussing the most important 2 issues first—mental health treatment & poorly secured public zones? Wouldn’t these two issues be the most logical, effective areas to discuss before getting into a ‘gun control’ debate?”
As for when they bring up the issue of gun laws, we need to consistently remind them that in this case, CT state laws worked—the shooter could not purchase the rifle he wanted without a waiting period, could not purchase handguns due to his age, etc. His solution was murder & theft, even before the school shootings. We also cannot be afraid of the debate that includes facts on our side:
• 700K – 2.5M DGUs annually in the USA
• Over 310M legally owned firearms in place already
• Demonstrations that, with extra 5 round mags, any semi-auto hunting rifle can do what an AR does…same with speedloaders (moonclips) and revolvers vs. 9mm wondernines…this is to show that the arguments against semis are academic…there is always a way.
Hiding behind rhetoric about “gun-free zones”, turning the focus on violent TV, movie and video games, IMHO, is only going to antagonize our opponents and will not turn the discussion in a direction that benefits us.
Wow, hey RF you got more than 200 comments with this post. You got more friends than you think.
Yes, just not in Rhode Island. =)
Okay, let’s break it down to one thing anti-gunners and those of us who own guns for defense can agree on: Humans are dangerous. Well, statistically the majority are just fine, reasonable folks–it’s those other ones…
Now, the two places where we differ:
We define the dangerous ones pretty practically: Criminals. Thugs. Sociopaths. Terrorists. (What am I missing?) They define it as anyone who’s armed. (A much higher number, making their world a much scarier place.)
And the solution (which follows from the above): Ours: Defend yourself, your loved ones, innocents (and develop your skill sets to do this as best you can). Theirs: Disarm and control everybody.
Let’s take their solution a bit further: As I like guns (very much), I must be dangerous by nature, therefore I should be proactively incarcerated, or at least closely monitored and controlled. (This would be a good time to roll out the stats on how many gun owners don’t gun down innocent people.) Also, if any human with a weapon is potentially a murder-machine, mustn’t we disarm all police and military? (As government approval–in our case a background check–isn’t enough to prove we can safely have a gun, how is any oversight a cop or a soldier has enough to ensure they won’t commit an atrocity?)
Finally, I’ll join RF in being “full of it”, probably more so: I don’t carry regularly. I can’t in my job, and I regularly travel in states I’m not permitted in. Do I feel unsafe? Sometimes–depends where I am, but thankfully that’s not often. I do believe most folks aren’t threats. However, I also spent the better part of half-a-century learning how to fight (disarming me won’t make me harmless–you just have to trust I make good choices), and I do practice situational awareness and continue my education in this area. But that takes some devotion (and a taste for it)–it’s not for the average person. Still, how would those hoplophobe barflies feel about sharing a public space with me?
Hang in there RF. I’ll share bar space with you any day.
We define the dangerous ones pretty practically: Criminals. Thugs. Sociopaths. Terrorists. (What am I missing?)
Politicians. You forgot politicians.
Robert,some months ago I said”the rights of citizens are not contingent on the reasonable exercise of those rights by all citizens”.I too was wrong.My rights and the rights of everyone of us are contingent on the behavior of others.We are experiencing a perfect storm that places our rights in peril: successive shootings that resulted in mass casualties,a faltering economy,the general, systematic erosion of long-held cherished beliefs(individual rights are not negotiable,having a public faith,etc.) and something different,our fellow citizens are generally more fearful,personally less optimistic about their current and future situations.The notion of being an individual with everything that implies has been ceded for a hollow security . We are losing or have lost our identity as Americans and are in fact being a collective of factions.Cling to what you know to be the truth and scrutinize everything else.
What on Earth could you POSSIBLY have been thinking? How would you suppose you could argue rationally with a tenured corduroy blazer with elbow patches?
FWIW, today in South Florida my 3 year old daughter and I took our weekly bike ride to the playground…but today we both wore our NRA baseball caps.
Nobody looked at us funny. I think one kids party group did notice us, and I overheard them talking about the joys of duck hunting. Later one of the dads offered us a an extra party favor bag.
Then we went to McDonalds, and again no problems, I overheard 3 guys at the next table on their lunch break talking about handguns.
Funny, is this the kind of Saturday afternoon “insurrectionists” are supposed to engage in?
You should have beat their asses, and sent them on their way !
How about pistol-whipping them? I mean, surely he wouldn’t go into a bar and have a few drinks without his concealed carry, right?
No one needs a swimming pool either, but they kill far more children than mass shootings do.
How many more kids are you willing to sacrifice to your “gun free” zones?
Robert, the Lone Star State would be happy to have you as it’s newest adopted son.
“That’s right, you’re not from Texas, but Texas wants you anyway.”