Home Quote of the Day Quote of the Day: Who Needs A 15-Round Ammunition Magazine Quote of the Day Quote of the Day: Who Needs A 15-Round Ammunition Magazine By Dan Zimmerman - February 19, 2014 223 Facebook Twitter Pinterest WhatsApp Email ◀Previous Post Next Post▶ “Nobody needs a 15-round ammunition magazine unless they are a domestic terrorist or a gangster.” – Bryan Miller, Executive Director of Heeding God’s Call [via washingtontimes.com] ◀Previous Post Next Post▶ RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR Durham: We Can’t Take Guns Away From Bad Guys Because That Would Be Gun Control Kalven: Robust Transparency is the Antidote to Police Departments’ Attempts to Create Self-Serving Narratives Following Shootings New York’s Punitive New Gun Control Laws Will Punish Camp Kids, Endanger Hikers 223 COMMENTS Oh look, there’s that slippery slope thing that I’m told doesnt exist. Reply Hey, where’d that goal post go? Reply Whoops. I’ve been procrastinating about joining a gang, guess I’d better get on it. Reply God created evil…therefore I need a 15rd magazine….or my 33rd mag in my Glock!! Reply God did not create evil. But he did create Samuel Colt. Reply And John Browning. And John Garand. And Hiram Maxim. But not Gaston GLOCK. He was assembled using the most efficient German manufacturing methods. Reply I believe Mr. Glock was Austrian True, but the Austrians are not known for their engineering prowess. Delicious food, yes. God made man. Samuel Colt made man equal. Reply Luke 22:36 Then he said to them; “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” If Christ was alive today; he would be recommending that if you have no pistol; as brought to you by that great prophet of G-d, John Moses Browning; sell your shirt and buy one. ( Couldn’t pass that one up; but, yeah, he would recommend to carry a weapon, by what ever manufacturer. and I believe he would recommend carrying the highest capacity magazine convenient to carry; what ever size was available.) Reply Entirely correct, ThomasR! I sent these jokers a challenge to read my book on the subject a few minutes ago. Hope they reply. Proverbs 25:26 “Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.” Luke 11:21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe” I would point out that he said sword, not dagger. A dagger was good in a pinch, a sword was a weapon of war, not an easily concealed blade for use in a pinch. He’d probably have no issue with rifles, if used responsibly. Rokurota said “God did not create evil. But he did create Samuel Colt.” According to Isaiah 45:7 God did create evil. Reply It’s God’s job to save my soul, it’s my job to save my ass. Reply Only comments: 1) God helps those who help themselves 2) Suicide is a mortal sin – walking through life unprepared to defend yourself against evil is tantamount to suicide 3) How did all that praying help the Jews against the Nazis, or anyone else who has faced down someone determined to kill them with nothing between them and the instrument of destruction but clasped hands and a prayer? I suspect a high percentage of victims of violence have met their end with a prayer for salvation on their lips. I think a nice firearm would have been a more effective solution unless being a victim and/or martyr was what they were after. Reply Amen. they seem to forget that the domestic foreign terrorist here now take extra pleasure in beheading Christians. Myself I prefer to keep my head. The better to witness Christ with. Reply Correct, we don’t need 15 round magazines. We need 100 round drums 🙂 Reply False. We need belts of ammunition attached to a backpack, as Eugene Stoner intended. Reply He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” —Luke 22:36, NIV Reply +100 Reply “If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed” Exodus 22:2 I would like to see them rally in a bad part of Chicago, Detroit, or even their own backyard of New Jersey where the problem actually exists, or maybe hold their prayer vigils in a more appropriate place, like outside a courthouse or jail where actual criminals are as opposed to legal retailers selling legally to law-abiding firearm owners. What we all know is criminals inherently have the upper hand. They’re prepared to fight, they prepare to have an advantage, they have surprise on their side, and pick the location and time of the encounter. Even if they only had 10-round magazines they plan ahead and carry more magazines. An armed victim probably doesn’t have as many magazines on their person, whether at home or out and about. On Youtube there is a video by a Sheriff showing the round count of a magazine does not impact how fast one can shoot and does not offer an opportunity to rush the shooter. At home the defender usually grabs whatever is at hand and does not have time to prepare. Magazine capacity limits deter our ability to defend ourselves but does not impact criminals that can better prepare for confrontation and ignore the restrictions altogether. Reply http://biblehub.com/exodus/22-3.htm You conveniently left out the part where if the homeowner kills the thief during the day, he’s guilty of murder. Reply And if the thief is caught alive he must repay equal value, double if it is alive (ox), and if he cannot repay he must be sold to repay the debt. Anyone that witnesses a daytime theft must intervene, hence daytime thefts were rarer. It keeps going for quite a while. Speak to your spiritual leader, self-defense is not a sin. So according to the Bible Dr. Petit should not have killed Komisarjevsky or Hayes since they raped and murdered his family during the day? The generally accepted interpretation of that verse and day vs. night has to do with the intent of the thief. It was assumed, at the time, that a thief breaking in at night meant to steal things AND cause harm to the inhabitants. In the dark he would be more likely to not get caught. During the day it was assumed that he was ONLY there to steal stuff, not a capital offense. Now if he DID rape, murder, et. al. during the day that falls under the typical Old Testament eye for an eye laws…. Michael B, much like the people that say, “How can I dissemble my weapon if I’m following the first gun safety rule and all guns are always loaded…” Don’t lose sight of the forest for the trees, don’t get wrapped around the axle on one word and lose the message all together. I feel like that’s saying killing in defense is fine, but if you find the thief later (so, the next day, after the act), then you cannot kill in retribution of the theft–only in defense of you and yours. +1. And I’ll add that Peter cut off the servant’s ear in the Garden (just prior to Jesus’ arrest) — this, of course, was a mistake and Jesus healed the man. But the salient point is apparently Peter routinely carried a sword. Reply Right to Keep and Bear Swords in 1st Century Rome. Sweet! Reply Heard a good breakdown of that incident once that isn’t immediately obvious. How does one cut off an ear with a sword without striking the shoulder, arm, etc.? Peter’s blow was meant to take off the man’s head. The man ducked to the side, and the horizontal slice to the neck managed to only catch his ear. Peter’s intent was not to wound. Peter was going for a head-shot. Reply Is he aware that religion is responsible for more mass murder than any other force/concept/theory in the history of humanity? Maybe we should rethink our ban brains… Reply i dont think the word “rethink” or “brains” should be included in the same sentence when talking about anti-gunners… Reply I don’t disagree with your thought, I may have even used those words before. But I would offer up that “religion” in and of itself isn’t inherently bad, but that whacked out nutcases (and there are some in EVERY religion) killing in the NAME OF religion is what you’re getting at… Reply Religion isn’t responsible for anything. People are responsible Reply That is just a categorically false statement. Please put some critical thinking to that statement. US Civil War, WW1, WW2, all of the African genocides, (Congo, Sudan, Rwanda), Stalin, Mao, the Khans, Alexander the Great, Romans, Pol Pot, Korean War and current N Korean regime, Vietnam, Khmer Rouge, North American Native Americans, South African Bush Wars, Angola, Rhodesia, European colonization, Chinese and Russian civil wars, French Revolution, Current Chinese oppression…. All of those are secular events and causes largely associated with political systems like communism, never mind the murders associated with organized crime and gang violence throughout history on top of random murder and crimes of passion. I could do this all day but I think I’ve made my point. Reply “All of those are secular events and causes largely associated with political systems like communism…” Not to get too philosophical here, but…There is precious little difference between any recognized religion and any political dogma, the chief difference being the worship of a supernatural deity as opposed to a mortal charismatic leader. And in the vast number of cases religions are just political systems devised by a charismatic and promoted as the revealed word of a supernatural being. In hopes of avoiding a tangential flame war I will not expound further on that point. The point being that if you promote either a religion or a political system that condones the killing of your enemies in the name of your belief or faith, you are evil. Throughout history this has occurred far too many times and one cannot easily separate the carnage caused by political “isms” from those caused by religious zealots. Religion isn’t responsible for anything. People are responsible Does that mean that likewise, communism and Nazism isn’t responsible for anything? Reply “Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism’s in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, ‘I don’t believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.’ Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I’d still have to bum rides off people.” Ferris Bueller +4 x 10^7 for fitting in a Ferris Bueller reference “Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.” —Robert A. Heinlein And since I just read “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” yesterday, here’s another one from that book: “I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.” Reply “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” is my favorite Heinlein book. I love the concept of Rational Anarchy. Blaming religion for violence is the same as blaming guns for mass shootings. STOP IT. Reply No, one is an inanimate object incapable of thinking, the other is an ideology used to establish hierarchies, civilizations and moral codes. Without getting into an argument, let’s leave it at that. Reply Blaming religion for violence is the same as blaming guns for mass shootings. Is blaming communism or Nazism for violence the same as blaming guns? Reply Read the quote by Heinlein above; it comes down to those tyrants using what is convenient to control the people around them; in the past it was religion; the last hundred years, it has been those that don’t believe in a god; (Marxism, communism, and so on) they only believe in themselves and the belief they have the right to kill anyone that doesn’t obey their demands. Just like all tyrants and their followers through all of history. Blaming “religion” as a generality, is certainly inappropriate, as some have been devised in the specific hopes of preventing violence. The proper analogy would be to blame all gun owners for evil violent acts just because some evil, violent people use guns. Ridiculous. Contrary-wise, to give every religion a pass is fantasy since many in history, and some currently, promote(d) the massacre of unbelievers. The same argument applies to political systems. To give Nazi-ism or socialism or communism a pass or to tar representative republicanism with their same brand of evil would be ludicrous. Reply Stirring up religious bickering among the gun community its the worst idea. It doesn’t matter if someone is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, or anything else. We’re all here because we need to protect our natural right to self defense. Reply Yup, do not talk about religion or abortion on this forum or this little community starts to splinter. Reply You could say that religion has killed the most people. But this leaves out the fact that there has been a close relationship between government and religion throughout history. Fortunately, people got ‘smarter’ in the last few centuries. Once government was finally unburden from the ignorant strictures of religion it was free to give us: France’s Terror Stalin’s purges, gulags and Holodomor China’s Great Leap Forward & Cultural Revolution Pol Pot’s killing fields Reply Communism is a secular religion, and it is more frightening and bloody because its gods are bloodthirsty psychopathic humans and not imaginary. Reply Nobody really got any smarter. If anything, they got dumber for falling for the same old discredited ideas, newly repackaged. That idea being that there exist certain categories of people who have the right to compel others, to force them to their will, to rule them, without the consent of the governed. Whether that justification came from the “divine right of kings”, royal lineage, the caste system, apartheid, dictatorship of the proletariat, so-called liberation theology, and other vicious fictions, doesn’t really matter. They’re all frauds and people keep falling for them. Reply Actually, communism has a much higher body count, and over a shorter time span. It’s not compatible with human life. Reply Wrong. Godless Communism is responsible gor killing more people then any religion incluxing “the religion of peace.” This mean is actual another piece of Communist agitprop. Reply You Christian church “haters” (I’ll go out on a limb and postulate what you and the “mainsteam” progressives dance around) are laughable. You want to tar the Mohammedan cultists get no argument from me on your logic. But where do you leave out the cultists of global warming/climate change? How many deaths are resulting from that lunancy? Reply Too many. The nature (or “natural”) worshipers are their own brand of crazy. The anti-GMO, anti-vaccine lunatics on the left will be responsible for millions of deaths if they get their way. Or the tree-hugging ecology fanatics who got DDT banned with the result of millions of deaths worldwide from famine and malaria? Or the Progressives who “found” a right in the Constitution that allows them to legally murder millions of innocents. Whenever a “cause” takes on all the essential traits of a religious dogma, sans the supernatural deity, it can be perverted into a rationale for carnage. So you’re basing the relative worth of your religion based on the destruction it has caused versus the destruction communism has caused? Gee, neat metric… can everyone use that standard? Charles Manson didn’t do anything as bad as Stalin, so why’s he in jail?!?!?! Defending one evil by claiming to be better than another… sounds like communist talk to me, tdiinva. Reply “Defending one evil by claiming to be better than another…” One must consider intention in this discussion. In other words, any religion or political system can be set up with entirely good intentions and the concept of peace and love and harmonious community working towards prosperity and then have factions break off that pervert those intentions through fanaticism. The numbers killed in the name of Christianity during the Crusades, for example, are the sins of those who perverted the message to justify genocide of the Muslims. The deaths during the Inquisition are on the souls of the madmen who committed them, not the entire Christian population that was powerless to stop them. The supposed 10% of Muslims willing to martyr themselves and murder in the name of Islam are responsible for their own crimes. Political systems, on the other hand, seldom have the option of claiming to have been hijacked by a violent faction that goes on to commit atrocities – they either are or are not champions of freedom and liberty in their conception. I’m not going to argue with someone whose entire premise, whether witting or not, is based on communist propaganda. More people have been killed by governments, either their own or someone else’s, than by any other human institution. Reply Not quite, I wouldn’t blame the religion. People rallied behind men and those men used religious affiliation as a justification, a tie-in. What should bother these people is that they are doing the exact same thing as those that committed atrocities across history. Reply Religion accounts for less than seven percent of all wars. And going by 20th century figures for mass murder, since we actually have solid statistics for that time frame, and it was one of the bloodiest spans of time on record; religion isn’t even close to #1. Reply It would be instructive to tally up the deaths at the hands of atheists and their agents, and compare the total number to that of the victims of all the other religions, and each religion specifically. Comparison with wartime casualties would be good. Wikipedia (I know, but I’m on my lunch break, no time for proper research) starts us off with an estimated 20-70 million deaths at the hands of the big Communist regimes. I’m not sure where to get figures for the rest. Reply Only an evil terrorist insurgent would need a flintlock, why do you need anything more than a pointy stick? /sarc Reply NO ONE needs a pointy stick. Nerf bats, max. And only if they’re registered. Reply Have you ever been hit with one of those Nerf swords or axes? Them mothers hurt. Soft, cushy foam my ass. It is more like hard packing foam wrapped around a PVC pipe. Still, I may or may not have been removed from one Wal Mart whilst in college for, in a moment of inebriation grabbing one of the ner axes and having an accomplice push me up and down the aisles in a cart while swinging the axe above my head and playing Led Zeppelin’s Imigrant Song on my phone. Reply That’s why they need to be registered. For the children ™ Most excellent! http://www.public.asu.edu/~mharp/viking_kittens/VikingKitten.htm If you’re going to get thrown out of a Wal-Mart, do it with style. You Sir are my Hero!! My oldest son(32) and I (51) were recently asked to leave a Wal Mart store for having Nerf Gun wars in the toy aisles! The body count was very high!!/sarc Auaaaa-aaaaaugh! SSDD Reply “Nobody needs a 15-round ammunition magazine unless they are a domestic terrorist or a gangster.” Or defending themselves from a home invasion, or facing any of the threats faced by our civilian police force on a daily basis. Reply Next time someone makes that claim, ask them if they have any high-capacity lights — lights with bulbs that emit more light than you would get out of a 25 watt incandescent bulb. Then tell them that no one needs more than a 25 watt light bulb. And then explain that anyone who uses a high-capacity light bulb must be a counterfeiter who needs the bright light check his/her counterfeit currency. Or you could say that anyone who uses high-capacity light bulbs is a pedophile who needs bright lights to look at child porn. Reply Thank goodness none of my mags are 15 rounders. My AR’s are 20, 30, 60 and 100. GLOCKs are 17 FN’s are 50 Now I don’t feel like a terrorist or gangster. I was worried there for a moment. Reply This. Reply Come to think of it, I don’t own any 15 round magazines either. 5s for the XDS, 13s for the XD and 30s for the AR work just fine for me. Reply “Nobody needs a 15-round ammunition magazine unless they are a domestic terrorist or a gangster.” So which of these things are the feds? Reply c) All of the above Reply When they say “Trust in God”, do they still lock their doors at night? Taking pains to protect against danger is not a lack of faith, it’s simply exercising prudence. Reply I just looked through various “self defense” related Bible verses….it seems more bi-polar than normal on the subject. Reply God “rewards” stupidity and lack of foresight just as surely as he rewards faithfulness and wisdom. Reply Nice pic of the six people who show up to their rallies. Reply jeez everyone keeps wanting me to be a domestic terrorist, maybe one day I’ll have to acquiesce. Reply Now now, you misunderstand… A domestic terrorist strikes terror in a domicile by forgetting to put the toilet seat down, not taking out the garbage when it’s full, and not realizing the baby has pooped until he is heading out to work and so has “no time”. Reply Amateurs. Rule one of baby safety: the diaper’s ALWAYS loaded. Make your spouse show clear before accepting the transfer. Reply This Domestic terrorism is just another excuse for imposing marital law. Reply I just sent the following to their national office (from their webpage) Only domestic terrorists or gangsters should need more than 10 prayers. All prayer books with more than 10 prayers should be confiscated. Reply Be a pacifist if you must, but don’t try and use my faith to make robbers, rapists, and murderers have an easier time of it, you monster. Reply What they misunderstand is that gun owners, as a group, are also pacifists. We just have a back-up plan. Reply +1000 You, sir, have hit upon a truly profound idea the anti’s simply do not understand. I am armed precisely because avoidance, deescalation and deterrence fails sometimes. Even with a commitment to avoidance, sometimes the other guy(s) just don’t play along. Reply Few are truly pacifist, lock a rapist in a confined room with the wife, daughter, or female, loved one of any self proclaimed “pacifist”, and tell the rapist, “Have at it!” And, just watch the pacifism melt away. Reply They are what Heinlein referred to as the Large-Mouth Pacifist. Much more dangerous is the Small-Mouth Pacifists “who tend to shoot back.” Reply So, I’m only a terrorist if I have a 15 round mag? Or a gangbanger? Intent, desire, plans, none of that matters, just a 15 round mag? Stick with bible thumping, dude. Reply Who needs a 15 round magazine? Just ask all the voters in the Colorado recall elections. Reply Oh but they generously allowed us to keep our fifteen rounders. It’s 16 rounders that are at issue in Colorado. Reply Miller is the Phelps of gun control. Let’s hope the people of NJ have balls as big as those in CT and simply say “no thanks”. Reply If I’m not mistaken the Great Commission is to spread the Gospel. I’ve read the Bible and it doesn’t say anything about gun control. Maybe if more “men of the cloth” spent more time preaching against sin and less time preaching against guns their time would be better spent. Reply In my experience it’s about 80% in favor of self defense (the other 20% really depends on how you interpret some of the Gospel verses, could swing either way). I found this one this morning while researching a well thought out letter to Heeding God’s Call: Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. – Genesis 9:6 Reply Many, many more clergy are heeding the Great Commission. You just don’t read about them on TTAG. (And is this Miller guy a pastor?) Reply Around here most Christian ministers seem to have absolutely no problem with guns. Our song minister carries a gun when he is up leading worship. I took my concealed carry class with a preacher who was getting his license in order to carry while he preaches. Reply I attend a fairly large church with a pastor that is uncompromising and steadfast in his beliefs. Seems that some people don’t care for his views too much and he gets death threats all the time. He carries a gun and has armed security in the congregation, also carrying concealed. Reply Sounds like your pastor runs parallel with Presidents..Protecting themselves from the ones they lead. As I kid I was lead to believe that a stack of nudie mags would earn me a trip to hell, but am I now going to hell for that stack of PMAGs, too…? Say it ain’t so! Reply The road to hell is paved with P Mags and PMAGS… Reply Forgive me father for I have sinned and forgive me father for I have not sinned enough. Reply Ironically, the 2nd Amendment guarantees the 1st, which protects the free exercise of religion. Reply Unfortunately for them this isn’t a religious matter, it’s a political matter taken up by a religious group. They attempt to use their religious affiliation to justify their position, even though the religion does not agree with their stance. That’s why they go through some mental gymnastics, most of which has nothing to do with the religious doctrine, to come to their arguments. They tend to misrepresent the Sixth Commandment and assume if you own a firearm you intend to murder (which is different than kill), which is a common assumption by the gun-control side. We all know, as said above, being armed does not mean we intend to murder but instead intend to not be murdered. Reply “Nobody needs a 15-round ammunition magazine unless they are a domestic terrorist or a gangster 15 rounds is a standard capacity for their firearm; in that case they should own several for purposes of redundancy and to reduce time spent reloading while target shooting.” There, fixed it for them. Reply Which is why I love the two mags that came with my Beretta 92. Reply Yeah according to the boundless wisdom of the Colorado State Legislature (and Governor Hickeypooper) your mags are just barely not evil. CZ-75 mags with 16 rounds are just barely evil. So clearly you are being edgy there pushing the limits, but I am beyond edgy. Reply My response to these laws is to always ask, then why are their exceptions for the police to such laws? If they are only tools for the terrorist or criminal then surely our police force doesn’t need them either. I have also been told “high- cap” mags only purpose is to kill as many people as possible as fast as possible. So again, if that is the case, why are their exceptions for law enforcement. The job of the police is never to kill as many people as possible as fast as possible. Reply Isn’t it fun watching peoples’ eyes glass over when you use that argument? Reply Lets keep our fingers crossed that that never becomes part of their job… Reply But it’s different for them, they’re special. Normal people are fallible and weak, you never hear anything negative about our fearless and ever-vigilant protectors. /sarc Acknowledging reality would mean they have to take personal responsibility and realize there is no easy instant fix to the evil in men and that’s a no-no. That would undermine the ideals of their utopia because if everyone doesn’t participate it can’t exist. Reply These are the same people that will scream “police brutality” at the drop of a hat. Reply That’s a pretty easy one for the antis. They’ll tell you that they have to have them so that they’re not “outgunned” by you, with your 30-round magazines. If you didn’t have those, the police wouldn’t need them either. It’s your fault. That’s their logic. Reply There we go, bringing up the Bill of Needs again. Reply Ah yes, the good ol’ Bill of Needs… Air, food, water, clothes, and shelter (however, one could make a strong argument that no one really “needs” clothes or shelter.) Technically, those thing are all anyone really “needs.” Reply Oh, there are a significant number of people in this country that NEED clothes…. Reply And, some still choose not to wear them, or enough of them. I went to a Christian elementary school (which was part of a church) in a liberal California city. There was a murder/suicide right at the front door and we all heard it. Not one teacher, staff member or pastor said a word about guns. Reply The pearl in the piece ““To hide their incompetence and impotence, our legislators just pass a barrage of useless bills.” There is it the truth about our elected representatives. Doing the easy over the hard. The failure to believe citizens are capable. They surrender to words scribed by do gooders interested not in the peoples welfare, but coin in a pocket. Anti’s wallow in the mistaken belief that they hold the answer to criminal behavior can be controlled on the backs of law abiders. Reply They are right. Only terrorists and gangsters need a 30 round magazine. Normal people need at least 3, prefearably 10, ideally 50 or so. -D Reply Yes, don’t be afraid of the guy with lots of guns, but be wary of the guy who wants only 1…. Reply Be wary of the guy who only wants to take a few lessons on how to fly an airliner. Reply So, does this sentiment apply to Coptic Christians in Egypt and Syria protecting themselves against abject slaughter? Reply Well, let’s see. The following folks being slaughtered by their own governments could be said to need effective infantry grade weapons with as many rounds as practicable- – Jews during the Holocaust in Germany – Chinese during the Great Leap Forward – Chinese during the Cultural Revolution – Russians during Stalins purges/forced collectivism – Cambodians under the Khmer Rouge – etc. etc. etc. But the ‘Heeding God’s Call’ folks are right. Any of those folks being slaughtered who’d managed somehow to get a hold of weapons and fight back, defend themselves and others certainly would have been defined as terrorists by the governments doing the slaughtering. So yeah, if the Christians get weapons and fight back they’ll be considered terrorists by their government. Reply My mother was one of those hardcore, bible thumpers that never really liked guns, though she never was opposed to anyone, including my dad and myself, having them. Her stance was “The Lord will take care of me, if he be with me, who can be against me?” Over the years I was finally able to pound into her head that just because you carry a gun doesn’t mean you don’t trust in God, anymore than wearing a seatbelt, or having health insurance, or putting on a helmet when you ride a motorcycle. There are plenty of dead soldiers who believed God was on their side, but I, personally, do not believe God picks sides the way we like to think he does… Anyways, my mother still thumps and gets mad at me for cursing, but she also has a license and carries daily now. Reply I just checked and there is no magazine capacity limit mentioned in the Bible. Reply I don’t know which god these people are talking about heeding. It’s certainly not the Christians, who are commanded to arm themselves–of which sects from Baptists to Lutherans agree Reply I guess I should have checked that the links worked: Baptists Lutherans Reply Christians would do better by identifying and ministering to the next would-be terrorist/gangster before they become one. I daresay Jesus would have found a discussion about guns and magazines to be missing the point. Whenever he was asked about laws, regulations, taxes, or even oppression by violent Romans with their superior weaponry, he changed the discussion to be about what was in the heart. No violence can be “stopped” without first addressing what is in the heart of man. To quote: “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is even angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” Matt 5:21. And from James: “What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.” Reply Is it just me, or does the overall tone of their arguments get meaner and dumber the lower the round count? Eventually it’s going to be: “You have bullet? You eat babies.” Reply In Soviet Russia, baby eats you! Reply No one needs a 15 round magazine… until they do Reply Well the cops need them. And so I need them. And for the same reasons. In a fullsize pistol anything with only a 15 rd mag better be .4/10mm/.45. I expect more in a 9mm 🙂 Reply Who needs “X” rounds? Well, X is arbitrary. 15? 10? 5? 1? This kind of stuff is straight out the play book, whether the topic is money, ammunition, the size of your house, etc. Who needs $1,000,000? Who needs 6 rounds in a revolver? Who needs a truck or SUV? Who needs 1000 sq ft? The point is that there is a self-appointed aristocracy that seeks to be the ones imposing the limit. The limit is arbitrary. So long as I can choose such things as mag capacity, house sq footage, motor vehicle size, I am not fully subjugated. The argument is not whether or not 15 rounds is enough. The argument is “Why do you want to be the ones setting the limit?” Reply Who needs to be literate? If you need to know something it will be read to you. If a statement begins with “who needs” it’s about control. Someone wants to take something from you to better control you. But they’re not coming for your guns…just the right to own and use them. Once they get rid of the right they’ll come for the guns. Reply I’m sorry, I’m not going to let someone whose god allegedly told them to turn the other cheek and willingly let himself be crucified by the Romans determine how many rounds I need. Christianity is only workable in the modern age because most Christians don’t literally follow all the Bible’s teachings. And thank god for that. Reply Spare us the mindless Christian bashing Reply You’re a Christian? Reply If he is, does that mean he merits your disrespect? His religion isn’t why I disrespect him. His bad attitude is. Spare us the mindless Christian bashing Does that mean you wouldn’t object to mindful Christian bashing? And in any case, he was criticizing the ideology itself, not its adherents. Reply Someone should apologize to you for so many of the “christian tradition” quoting the Bible out of context. The context of the turn the other cheek directive is if you are being persecuted for being a disciple of Christ not if some junkie is pointing a gun at you. Giving him the Gospel would be Biblical. Letting him rape your wife and passively watching not so much. Reply Name the religion that has never been misquoted, misused, misrepresented, or cited as justification for hurting, or killing others, bet you can’t… Reply What’s your point? Reply Something that passes over your head, obviously. A futile, weaselly use of the No True Scotsman fallacy is all I got from your comment. To the faithful, abuses are always someone “misusing” or “misrepresenting” their religion and never a true believer holding to the tenets of the faith. All I’m getting from your assertions on religion are points that mimic the arguements of the gun grabbers… “…To the law abiding gun owner, abuses are always someone “misusing” or “misrepresenting” the gun or the community, and never a true gun owner holding to the tenets of the gun culture.” See how that fits so nicely… You’re lumping an entire community into one, nice, neat little box to suite your ideals and beliefs, just like gun grabbers, how about look at the person and their actions, not the religion. Name the religion that has never been misquoted, misused, misrepresented, or cited as justification for hurting, or killing others Flying. Spaghetti. Monster. Reply I’m going to be honest, I had to google that, and I don’t even have a response. ‘Tis an old meme, but one of my favorites. I don’t think I have ever seen a better use of sarcasm to make a point… Except if I had been his Physics teacher, I would have failed him for illogic. He is artfully using sarcasm, but the fail lies in his assumptions. I do believe he executes a deft Begging the Question fallacy that’s very subtle and hard to spot. While slightly humorous on its face, I’ve never been all that impressed. It is creative, though. Then again, I’ve seen creative two year olds. Physics teacher? It was a letter to the Kansas State School Board back when they decided to teach intelligent design along with evolution. He was a Physics major in college if my memory serves correctly. The phrase ‘turn the other cheek’ has been taken out of context from the original and now refers to non-violence. Not that this is a bad change, idealistic maybe, but not necessarily bad. It does differ, however. When placed in historical context the phrase actually becomes less about acceptance and passivity than civil disobedience. When Rome wanted an area they did 3 things: 1) the conquered any military forces, 2) they subjugated and subdued the people, 3) they started to inter-marry, conscript and build the country back up. During the time of Christ, Israel and surrounding countries were still in the Subdue stage. In this stage Romans would view and treat the indigenous as those of a lower caste. When a Roman wanted to smack someone of a lower class they would use the back of the hand. Slapping with the palm was reserved for equals. So by turning the cheek one may still be accepting the slap but also forcing oneself to be treated as an equal. Reply Interesting, if true. Reply I don’t know if that’s true either, but the Roman could always just use the other hand. Reply Proves that knowing what the Bible says is one thing, having a historical perspective to compare it to is another. Some people that exercise the former have a complete lack of the latter. Reply True enough but it often goes both ways. I actually have had the opposite experience; where the “Bible-thumpers” knew more about ancient mid-east history than most of the profs I had in college. And don’t forget that many early Mid-east scholars not only got their start by looking for Biblical corroboration but actually made significant finds because they interpreted the Bible literally. For instance, scholars started looking for and found ancient Assyria because it mentioned in the Bible even though there was no archeological evidence for another early civilization. What have the Romans ever done for us? Reply As as Christian, I hate politicized religion. This applies to “pet” issues from both the right and the left. In this particular case, however, I find the name of the organization particularly galling since “God’s Call” in my interpretation is what is commonly known as The Great Commission. It irked me enough to send them the following correspondence. The name of your organization is a misnomer when paired with the subtitle that follows. God’s calling for Christian’s is summarized in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:16-20). Our foremost as Christian’s is to proclaim the Gospel and bring others to faith in Christ, locally, regionally, and worldwide. Regardless of your politics this is God’s Call to imply otherwise is blasphemy (def. the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God). I wanted to send it to each office, but you’re only allowed top send three e-mails per hour. I’m going to send messages to the other two once my 60 minutes is up. The views of this organization do not represent Christ any more than the views of Westboro Baptist Church. Organizations (and particular Reverends) that utilize the name of God to drum up support for a political cause are exactly the same as those described in Matthew 18:6 (“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”) No matter what the “pet” issue these organizations attack perceived symptoms without offering any solutions. There is more to be said on this matter, but I don’t feel like a marathon post where the majority of the topic doesn’t concentrate on guns. Reply Amen. Reply Hmm wonder if he would change his mind if he were here where I live in the country and, as I was 3 wks ago, standing on my front porch at 2 in the morning w/my 30rd mag SKS shooting at starving coyotes trying to get in my dog pen!!! 15? Hell No 30rounder and a spare or two!! Reply ^This – except river otters and chicken coop…. Reply The misguided folks at Heeding God’s Call seem to know even less about guns than they do about God. However, I’d like them to know that I’ve heeded God’s call twice already in 2014: picked up a mint S&W model 60 in January and a beautiful Weatherby Orion 28 gauge in February. I consider both to be gifts from God, who knows our every need and richly shares from His abundance before we even ask. Reply Own a 15 rnd mag and go to hell? Isn’t this demonizing a class of PPL prior to their destruction? Violates the UN Charter on Genocide if I recall correctly Reply Why don’t they march at the motor vehicles office? 44,000 deaths per year. Reply I was looking at the picture supplied with this article and reflected on their statement to “End Gun Violence”. What these cerebrally challenged libtards fail to grasp is the LARGER picture that has allowed all three branches of government to become infiltrated with corruption and treason. The hard part for them is that they need to look at pictures when they read something, like “See Dick Run”. They can’t SEE corruption or avarice, but show them a picture of an evil gun part and they’ll become rabid opponents to the very republic that allowed them to stand out in the rain and look like idiots. It reminds me of the cartoon definition of a liberal who is watering a sapling he just planted, and the little tree has a rope tied to it on one end, with the other end being a noose tied around his neck. Priceless. If these Chicken Little supporters ever tried to actually change anything, the first thing they’d have to do is actually READ some history to see why mankind has the capacity for evil and then grow some testicles so they can do something about it instead of hiding under a rock or behind a poster on a street corner. Reply And why should we listen to adults who still believe that they have an invisible friend with magical powers? Reply Redstate.com has a very good article up right now titled Useful idiots for Baal that applies to this group. Reply So adults with imaginary friends who believe in an invisible man in the sky deem me not fit to own a standard capacity magazine? And they call me crazy for owning one… Reply I said almost exactly the same thing. Reply I don’t think the bible needs any more than 1 page bryan… & I’m being really generous. Reply These guys hold vigils in Harrisburg everytime one of our local hood rats shoots another one. I have yet to see them actually say anything about holding criminals responsible or holding the community responsible for cooperating with investigators. No one wants to be a snitch: “I didn’t see nothin'”. Reply Exactly. Until the residents of crime-ridden communities start taking responsibility and initiative to end crime and help catch or otherwise deal with the criminals, no other approach is anything more than a band-aid. Reply Maybe TTAG can set up a permanent thread for people to mock other people’s religions: Judaism, Christianity, etc. And then invite the resident juveniles here to it to bash to their heart’s content. Reply Or, we can just keep calling out fools who would use their imaginations to disarm us on the regular threads. Reply Well if people didn’t use religion as an excuse for a political agenda then we wouldn’t. Reply I honestly had no idea you were Christian, Paul. You certainly don’t act like a real one around here. Reply Coming from you, I accept that as a high compliment. 🙂 Reply Have you not noticed by now any ideology that advocates for civilian disarmament is mocked here? The fact that the an ideology is religious in nature doesn’t (and shouldn’t) give it a pass….agreed? Reply I’m sorry, you think a grown adult who believes in an invisible friend with magical powers shouldn’t be mocked or called crazy? If being nuts wasn’t bad enough, they want to use their delusions as justification for taking away our rights. Sorry, but those people belong in a padded cell, not the voting booth. Reply “He who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one”‘ Luke 22:36. Pretty straightforward for all the so-called anti gun Christians. I am commanded to be protect my family…period. 15rounds or 500. Reply Amen. The organization in question may be “heeding God’s call,” but their god is the endlessly malleable concept of “social justice” which can be (and has been) used to justify all sorts of evil actions. Proposed counter-slogan: “No one needs a Subaru with a ‘Coexist’ bumper sticker.” Reply I’ll bet those government protesters in the Ukraine with with they had 30 rnd Mags to go with the guns they dont have.. Reply I don’t know what it is about priests, ministers and the like being hard core lefties. This is my experience anyway ymmv. My grandfather was an episcopal priest and hardcore leftist. The ministers at my current church are hardcore lefties even in a very conservative enclave in dallas. I had a conversation once that if you believe in Jesus’s teachings feeding the poor(the ends) was only part of the equation. The means to that end(charity of the spirit etc) was equally as important if not more important. They always rail for higher taxes etc, but what about taxes is charitable. I have no say in the matter so not only is the spirit of charity gone, but instead of the people receiving being thankful they now think they are entitled. Sticking to the tone of this site they are also very anti gun. Reply Be assured that mainline Protestantism is “leftie” on everything There are plenty of conservative clergy who are not, at all. Reply I don’t know what it is about priests, ministers and the like being hard core lefties. Since I’ve never subscribed to a religion, this is simply speculation…but my suspicion is that the lens through which such people see the world is primarily that of leftist politics, not religion; thus they simply use religion to justify their political opinions. The same would certainly apply to those on the right, as well. In the end it’s all about the desire to control others. Reply I think you would also find that a lot of folks involved in “ministry” do it because it’s a pay check, they say all the right words, do all the right things but know not Christ, they just use the title Christian. “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” Reply I think you would also find that a lot of folks involved in “ministry” do it because it’s a pay check, It can be a whole lot more than a paycheck…just look at televangelists or Scientology, just to name a couple of obvious examples. Reply That to. I would say, for the clergy, it’s also a matter of never earning a paycheck – people are told they must give at least 10% of their income to the church or they will go to hell. This money is then used to fund the clergy. If they actually had to convince people that they were worth the money they receive, it would be a whole different story. Reply “People are told they must give 10% or they will go to hell.” Ridiculous!! Everyone knows heaven’s cover charge is 20% of income, before taxes. Get your facts straight. Reply These opportunistic anti-gun Democrat soldiers are beating their chests because they have a sympathetic Democrat state legislative majority and want to be on the anti-republican bandwagon to further their own specific agendas, which happen to also include being anti-gun. The fact that Miller is waiving the faith banner is just stamp your feet background noise . This whole push is as much about “squeezing” Christie, a presumptive key candidate for the next presidential contest, as it is about expanding firearm restrictions and impeding the exercise of gun rights. The Democrat / liberal / progressive machine is doing every exercise they can envision to diminish Christie’s value as a viable presidential candidate; that’s why they won’t let go of bridge gate even though it is no longer news. And with the major broadcast media at their disposal, this sort of thing will continue on all fronts, including gun rights, because the Dems are afraid of Christie. Reply I’m sorry, but your analysis is simply a bridge too far…… Reply Who better to spout mythology than an expert? Reply Then Mr. Miller, you don’t need an expensive house, smartphone, jewelry, brand clothing and car unless you’re a drug trafficker or a crocked politico or a fancy pimp. See? I can play with words too. Slippery slope indeed. Reply By this logic aren’t police officers and soldiers gangsters and terrorists? If I remember correctly the M9 has 15 rounds and the various pistols used by police also have 15+ rounds. Reply http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562768/I-didnt-time-scared-CCTV-captures-moment-mother-opens-fire-home-invaders-assault-rifle.html Reply It may be inappropriate but I find the fact that they called a Hi-Point an assault rifle hilarious (and tragic). Reply It’s cute how the photo above includes the entire membership of HGC… Also, I refuse to be bullied by a group so clearly on the side of domestic terrorists and gangsters. Why else would HGC want them better armed than “us ‘lil ‘ol peeples?” Reply Hi! My name is Kerry and I (apparently) am a domestic terrorist. I would like to welcome you to today’s Terror Anonymous meeting. We have a ten step plan (because 12 is too many) to help you on the road to recovery. Reply Well, Mr. Miller, we’ve decided that you don’t need a car that can go in excess of 70 mph or a swimming pool. Because, you know, those things are dangerous. Reply If these guys were true Christians or really faith based they would go into the inner cities and try and end poverty and gangs. Saving a few kids from the gang culture would go right to the source of the violence and poverty problem Reply But that’s dangerous. Also, it cuts into the prayer meeting time. I feel like praying for them to STFU. Reply I can turn this around and say that nobody needs to follow a bunch of stories told a couple of thousand years ago if they can’t follow a bunch of laws written a couple of hundred years ago. Reply If only terrorists and gangsters need 15 round magazines, we need 30 round magazines. It’s simple math: terrorist + gangster = 15 + 15 = 30 Therefore it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that we need 30 round magazines…. Reply But….I….we….um….yes. Yes it is. Reply Damn it feels good to be a gangsta. Reply The fact this is done under the guise of religion is reprehensible. Reply First it was the 15 round limit, Now it’s a 10 round limit. I’m sure it won’t end there. Next they’ll tout Dick Dufus Durbin’s idea of a one round magazine. Reply Pretty S t u p I d Reply Why does he need to limit the magazine size for the hundreds of millions of firearms that will never be used for aggression? Why is it so offensive to him for a magazine capacity to be determined by the size of an average hand? Why does he need for a magazine capacity to be artificially limited? Scratch all that. I need whatever an anti doesn’t want me to have. All forms of anti-ism have been shown to be endlessly incremental, there is no equilibrium that will satisfy them. Therefore whatever it is an anti wants banned I then need in order to put it “in common usage” and to normalize in the eyes of the fence sitters. Why do I need a 15 round magazine? Because of you Sir. That is why. Reply oh god… Reply Who Needs A 15-Round Ammunition Magazine? Anyone attacked by more than 5 people. Next Question? Reply The heart of the person who wields the tool is the one that matters. These nutjobs are obviously misguided. Reply Do these people not realize that we have foreign domestic terrorist groups training in guerrilla warfare in our country right now posing as religious organizations? That’s why we need 15 round ammunition for our weapons. These crazy no respect for life heathens come after us infidels we have to protect ourselves and take as many of them out as possible. When the saying started that with gun laws only criminals will have guns I didn’t realize it would be because Obama changing laws would label law biding gun owners criminals..I’m beginning to wonder if the rumor about a bunch of guillotines being stored in this country for later use is true? Reply Who needs a 100 round drum?? Who needs a 30 round magazine?? Who needs a 15 round magazine?? Who needs a 7 round magazine?? Who needs a magazine?? Who needs a single shot rifle?? Who needs firearms?? 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