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Scott Shaw, co-founder of the Oklahoma Volunteer Militia (courtesy

“We are prepared…We certainly hope it doesn’t go that route but, with the track record of the federal government, it doesn’t look very promising that that’s going to happen.” – Scott Shaw, co-founder of the Oklahoma Volunteer Militia, quoted in MILITIA TO BLM: ‘WE ARE PREPARED TO USE DEADLY FORCE’ [via]

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  1. I don’t care what they think they can do or are willing to do. They don’t have air support. Why fight a battle when you KNOW you’re going to loose the war. I just can’t see being a martyr for this particular cause.

        • When I say “bombing” I mean mortars, cannons, airplanes, that kinda thing. A thrown bomb here or there is to be expected and survived without too many problems.

        • You are forgetting in PA the police used a helicopter to drop a bomb on a house occupied by move members. Granted they were not a nice group of individuals. But the police managed to kill a lot of children in the house and let several blocks of the city burn to the ground.

        • I think you’ve got that backwards. Isn’t there an old saying, Never ascribe to evil that which can be explained by plain stupidity” (or something like that)?

        • Occams razor I believe it is called. I agree with Rich though. Yoir government has always been a mix of stupidity, evil and hypocrisy.

        • Hanlon’s Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

          Occam’s Razor states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. It’s usually dumbed down to “the simplest explanation is usually the best.”

      • Yep. Civilians with AK’s defeated the Soviet Union and the U.S. When it’s your own home and family your defending…

        • Nah. Pyrrhus actually did win something, it was just at such great cost. The US Administration is incurring all of the costs and more, with absolutely nothing to show for it other than the incredible waste of lives and treasure, and humiliation on the world stage.

    • Because air support has worked out so well for the Syrians. The UN would enforce a no fly zone. Even if it didn’t…how many governments with air forces, navys, and tanks have been brought down by their civilians? How many of them actually had weapons when it began? Most of them started with sticks and fought until they had RPGs, mortars, IEDs, RPKs, etc etc etc. It’s not unthinkable by any stretch.

    • Please tell me how many wars have been won by the air?

      Zero. To actually achieve military victory, it means putting boots on the ground in a slugging match, and in guerrilla warfare, especially the type used by Iraq and Afghanistan, air support really does not matter a damn. When I was in Iraq, I saw zero “air strikes”. Not a single insurgent killed by air power. Any insurgents killed had to be killed with infantry, in which case they were able to kill us too. The truly godlike power of the USAF often gives people the idea that the Gov is unbeatable, but that idea is proven wrong again and again.

        • After a heap ton of ground fighting on other islands…

          Of course, the Pac Theater did have a huge air superiority component.

          And some doubt the feds would drop nukes on US soil.

          Air is one prong of warfare. It’s not the ONLY prong. To assume owning the air is definitive seems a bit simplistic. War is not that cut and dry.

        • See, your looking at conventional war, WW2, of all wars. A poor choice. Far different than a guerrilla war of insurgency. The Atom bomb did not “win” world war two. WW2 was by FAR, won from the air. The Bomb only hastened Japans defeat which was inevitable at that point. Cannot be compared to guerrilla war, especially one on US soil at that point, and now let me ask you, IF the US gov DID decide to NUKE its own citizens… tell me, what have they won? half of their own nation burned, obliterated, poisoned. It would destroy its own country. Not a victory. And good luck ever winning the war at the point, because no one in this country is going to follow that lunacy.

        • Maybe, but I still like that apocryphal story of some Japanese admiral who wasn’t Yamamoto saying, “We can’t invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.”

        • Iraq “initial phase” and Kuwait? Ha. First, the first gulf war, can hardly ever be compared to any guerrilla war, and I tell you, Desert Storm was not won by air power alone, though a flat desert full of Iraqi tanks ripe for the plucking was the main focus of the war. There a plenty of soldiers and marines that did have to duke it out with the Republican Guard. And please tell me what the “initial phase” of the Iraq war is? Because when I was there, it was just “the Iraq war”- You can win all the battles and campaigns, and “phases” if you will, but its does not matter a damn if you lose the war. The Iraq war is the perfect example. As you point out, “the first phase” was dominated by US air supremacy- however as I said, the US actually had to put infantry on the ground, to win. At which point, insurgency follows, and you air power is meaningless.

      • I would argue that air strikes/support were critical to the victory of WWII. Once we decimated the Japanese and German air forces, the Allies operated air power with impunity and brought about the end of the war.

        That being said, WWII was a “conventional” war. Air support is of limited value in a guerilla war.

      • As a former 11B2P and 152H, I can tell you that a big dumb infantryman sitting in an Apache can bring a LOT of pain to the enemy. Not sure when you were in Iraq, or what area, but there are a lot of jibs shaking hands with Allah right now thanks to Apache helicopters. I do agree with you on the fact that air power alone does not win wars. I also don’t think the U.S. Military would wholly commit to an action against its own citizens. OK, some of the military would blindly follow the orders of this President, I would say about 12% of the population. With that being said, the 12% of the population which compromises approximately 1% of Combat Arms and 95% support units would not really know what to do when the SHTF. On a side note, my final protective fires and fall back position would be behind a blue line on the map. … think about it.

    • For an air strike to work, there needs to be a very specific target area. How are they going to find that target area? Any hotspot for insurgents will be in a big city, surrounded by thousands of non-combatants. Sure, they could still bomb that area, but ten, the friends and family of the murdered innocents would join the resistance. Air support is important in a conventional, symmetrical war. But asymmetrical warfare? Not so much.

      • But asymmetrical warfare? Not so much.

        Except for A-10s and attack helicopters. Unless you have MANPADs, you’re SOL.

    • If I hear another you can’t fight a military with rockets, and nukes, or some such b*ll shit, I think I am going to scream!
      With all due respect to everyone here, a militia force using guerrilla warfare tactics, could do quite well. After serving in the IDF for 4 years, and seeing the kind of rockets, bombs, and light weapons they can produce out of a garage, the whole idea that you need a 50 million dollar jet to win is BS.
      I could go down the line on what the militia could do, and outline how it would work, but needless to say, no one is going to start bombing, and no one is going to toss a nuke. What would happen is the popular opinion of our government would go out the window. Infrastructure would be taken down. It would be all to easy.
      Most people are not preppers, so they could throw our society into a panic, and it would be easy to do. People don’t own or produce their own food. Think about that a moment.
      So please do not tell me that a militia force could not take on DHS, ATF, etc etc etc.

        • uh… As far as I know, there were no subsidies provided to our regiment, or unit in regards to equipment we were using, or supplies which we consumed, but thanks?

        • @ delta tango 80. You certainly need to study up, an learn more about history, politics, international law, treaties, the nation of Israel, and the nation of the United States, how a bill becomes law, and take a basic civic course. Thanks for playing though.

      • Daniel here gets it. assymetric warfare isn’t “in” it has always been in.

        The pope banned crossbows because they provided an “unfair” advantage against armored knights (“bloody hell, what do you mean I can’t rob farmers anymore?!”). Also who can forget the retreat from Kabul in 1842?

        If your enemy has superior items or tactics, just do something which makes that useless, switch up the rules. CQB is useless against a sniper, mortars and sniper rifles are good at range, up close not that much.

        In Bosnia we were disarmed vs. a heavily armed enemy which had ammo/weapons factories and armories + the world didn’t want to help us (shout out to UNPROFOR, [comment moderated by myself]). Yet we still managed to fight them off. Assymetric warfare is where it’s at.

        • Anyone remember the attack on a power station in South San Jose CA? It was hardly covered by media. Imagine, no atm, no gas, no freezers, or internet. Traffic lights stop working. OMG no Starbucks!!!
          Civilians would be in an uproar in a matter of days. Enough destruction would take months to recover from.
          I am by no means advocating this, but I am saying this is not far fetched. It doesn’t take a massive army, or expensive equipment. We don’t have armed guards on our power grid. Our malls, and other gathering places have multiple entrances and exits with no security.
          The government would be overwhelmed just trying to deal with the masses, since most are ill equipped to be self sufficient on their own.

        • OMG no Starbucks!!!

          I realize you’re making a joke, but here in Seattle, that’s considered serious business.

          Do not interfere with our caffeine supply. You will not like what happens.

      • I know about that, Daniel. I’m not sure it wasn’t a “friendly” attack, by which I mean a drill or test of some kind. The circumstances around it are unusually murky.

    • The insurgents in Afghanistan don’t have close air support either, and you see how that’s gone for us, and how it went for Russia.

    • How do you know they dont’ have air support? Take the doors off a Cessna 172 and you have a great gun platform. A Cessna is faster and more agile than a police helicopter and could be had for $35,000.

      One could be used to shoot the hell out of a police heli. All of the airspace out there is completely non-tower controlled. If bad stuff went down, the FAA would probably set up a temporary flight restriction a/k/a/ TFR for the area. But they have no way to enforce that.

      You also seem to forget that there are hundreds of thousands of recent Iraq and Afghan vets freshly returned from war. Care to guess which side of this fight they would end up on?

      Don’t discount the ability of a “well regulated” militia to inflict harm.

    • And that mentality is why we will never move forward, had everyone had that same “we will loose” mentality there would be not American Revolution, there would never be a “We should stand up for our rights” movement. The whole willing to be a martyr is why it is soo hard to win a war in Afghan or any other country with similar beliefs. Until you are willing to die for your cause in order to shed light to the movement you are doing nothing.

    • you mean like the old men with riffles living in caves they haven’t been able to beat in over 10 years?

    • and in your underestimation of a force, you have already lost the war.

      Don’t worry, the U.S. and Russia made the same mistake regarding a bunch of stone-age cave dwellers in Afghanistan…
      more than a decade later… The Taliban still have no air support.

  2. A comment from another thread on TTAG, well worth reprinting here, posted by Dave:

    These are really simple facts. Bundy has been making a huge profit off government assistance for decades. Rather than pay up for the benefits he is getting, he formed a militia to threaten and intimidate Federal law enforcement officers.

    All of his claims for beneficial use, homestead, or land improvement re obvious lies. When Nevada became a state in 1864, its citizens gave up all claims to unappropriated federal land and codified this in the state’s Constitution. His neighbors recognize him for what he is, a moocher who refuses to pay his bills (

    In order to get support from right-wing hate groups, he had to recruit from out-of-town, because the locals have no interest in helping him promote his scam.

    It is not his land. He has paid no property taxes, and has no “rights” to the land. Even if his homestead claims were true, we are talking about 160 acres, not thousands. He is trespassing, pure and simple. Bundy is a freeloading, welfare rancher who thinks that he deserves an entitlement program that everyone else should pay for.

    Bundy’s philosophy is that if his cows find green grass, then his cows have first claim, even though the state paid the appropriate fee to let the wildlife graze. The BLM prevented unpaid grazing as a practice because it was a subsidy of lawbreakers at the expense of people who played by the rules.

    Once Bundy calling for a “range war” and saying it was time to take back the country “by force,” he changed his crime from “stealing from the Federal Government” to “pointing guns at federal officials.” The latter is a more serious charge. His racist rants are really just a minor personality failure compared to the idea of killing law enforcement personnel.

    If he is so opposed to blacks getting government subsidy, then why is he willing to commit treason to maintain his government subsidy?

    If he is willing to call for hundreds of terrorists to come help him defend his welfare benefits, then why can’t he ask them to chip in a few dollars for his grazing permit? After all, the government is not supposed to be picking winners and losers, and the other 15,000 people with similar permits are paying their bills on time.

    The bill, by the way, is about $1.35 per animal per month. This is pretty much unchanged since it was imposed by Reagan after the Sagebrush Rebellion. Bundy has run up fees of about $1 million during the last 20 years by refusing to pay any of the fees his competitors are paying.

    Guess what? I don’t like to pay my bridge tolls, either. But forming an armed militia to threaten the toll-booth operators is not the act of a patriot, it is the act of a thug. If Bundy and his supporters were black, they would all be in prison by now. Or worse.

    • The BLM appreciates your support. Maybe they can cut you in on the deal to exploit the land once cattle farming is ended in Nevada.

      • It is their land, and the can exploit it any way they deem reasonable and appropriate. If the land has a higher and better use than as grazing land, and will return more dollars to the federal coffers, who are you to complain?

        • Federal land, in theory, is held in trust by the government for the benefit of the public. So, yes, citizens get to have an opinion about how it is used.

          You’re using a financial argument to excuse actions by a federal government that hasn’t even had a budget that was passed by Congress for years. The federal government is a horrible steward of pretty much everything they are entrusted with.

        • No land is actually owned by the BLM. Not one square inch. They were created to manage (or mismanage, as is more often the case) PUBLIC lands.

          And are you telling me that beef cattle are not “in the public interest”, but a Chinese solar farm (100% of whose profits would go to China) IS?

          I’m sick of all the pontificating here by low-information people who don’t know shit from shinola about the real issues, and what is actually going on there.

          I’m even more disgusted by those who won’t change their opinion after their uninformed assumptions are destroyed 100% by the actual facts.

          Ignorance is annoying, willful ignorance is simply sickening.

        • The “public” land is only public in name. It is owned and operated by the federal government. The BLM, a part of the government, can do with that land what it wants. Its as if the federal government bought a car, painted ‘public car’ on the side, and let people drive it as they pleased, until they realize that the car they own can make a ton more money being rented out instead of freely given.

        • Their land? Have you ever read the Constitution? Do you even know the purpose of the Constitution?
          Here’s a hint. The Constitution LIMITS the Federal Government to certain, specific functions, and owning land, beyond as strictly spelled out IN the Constitution, is not one of it’s functions.

        • “Here’s a hint. The Constitution LIMITS the Federal Government to certain, specific functions,”

          No, no. Not “LIMITS.” DEFINES. The difference might be subtle, but the way you said it, it’s as if the Federal Government is this amorphous, autonomous entity with all the power except for your “limits.”

          That’s not the case at all. Without the Constitution, the Federal Government doesn’t even exist. The Constitution says, “This is the government, and these are the things it’s authorized to do.”

          Getting the ones in power to obey it is turning out to be somewhat of a challenge, however.

        • @Rich Grise: I hadn’t looked at the distinction of “limit” as opposed to “define” before. I’ll now try to incorporate the distinction in my writing and speech by being mindful of using “limit” when “define” is a more appropriate fit. Thanks.

        • Kewl! I hope I didn’t come off all pompous know-it-allish (even though I am one), but I like to point out that distinction. They are our employees, after all!

          I still think that a government that’s big enough to make war on its own citizens, and might want to, needs to be abolished forthwith.

        • “I hope I didn’t come off all pompous know-it-allish (even though I am one)”

          It’s true, of course, but it’s not charmless.

        • I learned this saying from my Dad: “People who think they know everything are particularly annoying to those of us who do.” 😉

          The more new stuff I learn, the more I find out that I don’t know. My inner metaphysics teacher says you will know you are enlightened when you really understand that everything you know is wrong.

      • BLM or not I’m not gonna support a recalcitrant welfare case, especially one who is perfectly capable of taking care of himself. He should follow his own rhetoric and buy his own damn land that he ain’t got to share with no one.

        • The land in dispute was owned by his family since the late 1800s when they settled it. It was passed down to him. Google “Eminent Domain.” You can learn many things by reading all of the words. Even the big ones.

    • Sorry, but you are really misguided. Senator Reid cut a deal with a chinese company to kick Bundy off the land so the chinese company can use it for their solar farming. this is part of an on going trend where ranchers are being forced off their land and put out of business. The land belongs to the people, its not meant for a corrupt senator to use in back deals. The chinese company stated in documents that Bundy had to be kicked off the land so they could use it for their solar project. BLM is being used as a thug organization to enforce these illegal deals.

      I’m amazed that you are spouting out so much misinformation and propaganda its staggering. You are so off base and you have absolutely no idea of whats going on. These tactics are being used increasingly with the BLM being used illegally as a enforcer of illegal backdoor deals.

      “Back in 2012, the New American reported that Harry Reid’s son, Rory Reid, was the chief representative for a Chinese energy firm planning to build a $5-billion solar plant on public land in Laughlin, Nevada.
      And journalist Marcus Stern with Reuters also reported that Sen. Reid was heavily involved in the deal as well.
      “[Reid] and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert,” he wrote. “Reid has been one of the project’s most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada.”
      “His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission.”
      Although these reports are in plain view, the mainstream media has so far ignored this link.”

      • Any malfeasance on Reid’s part (not to mention unconstitutional “free speech zones” and arrests without cause courtesy of the BLM) does not change the wrongness of Bundy’s actions. I see nothing wrong with calling out ALL bad actors for their respective misdeeds.

      • So what? Bundy has no rights in the land. Period. Just because it has been used for grazing in the past does not mean that it must thereafter be dedicated to grazing forever. Get real. If it was your land and someone offered you millions to lease it for an exclusive use which precluded grazing, while the current tenants were paying only thousands, what would you do? We all know what you would do–you’d take the money to the bank. Is there even a moral dilemma? No.

        • “Is there even a moral dilemma? “

          Perhaps there is indeed a moral dilemma with your premise that it is the BLM’s land.

        • So he has no rights to the property, BUT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT DOES?

          Thank you for putting it so well, and exposing your role as a paid government troll, to all that may see.

        • Mark, the ENN deal wasn’t to lease the land, it was to purchase it outright. Reid was trying to sell public land to a Chinese business entity. He and his son were due to be greatly enriched themselves through this deal. Harry Reid is an extremely deceitful and corrupt man. The whole thing’s pretty shady and quite disconcerting.

          Having said that, the land in question was nowhere near Cliven Bundy. And further, the deal fell through as ENN could not find anyone to buy the power their solar panels were to generate.

    • If Bundy is a criminal mastermind then the BLM was outfoxed, the people who work there are incompetent and should be fired. Or perhaps the BLM is a corrupt, crony filled federal bureaucracy, despised and unpopular. Either way no one should carry water for the BLM. I am sure the in the near future Americans going through a toll both will experience the distinct pleasure of having their pets shot in the head if they don’t have correct change. Our parasitic government seems to be in an awful hurry to militarize every other revenue collecting agency.

    • He had grazing permits, they were revoked because of his refusal to accept he owed 1.1M in FINES due to unsubstantiated claims that the cattle grazing on the land were harming the habitat of the desert tortoise. BLM apparently doesn’t have to prove its case, just claim that ex-post facto violations occured since the Endangered Species Act was signed into law and try to collect back fines. They granted him permits to graze on that land in all that time but 20 years later decide he owes them money for this “violation”. Stop muddling the issue with flatout lies and defending clearly defined government corruption. You must have deluded yourself into thinking a VOTE actually stops corruption as rampant as it is in this country.

      • Nope nope nope nope nope. He refused to pay grazing fees to the federal government, arguing in court that the federal government was not and could not be the owner of the land, but instead that it was owned by the Sovereign State of Nevada and Clark County. Two federal judges told that him he was wrong on his history and wrong on the law.

        Oh and by the by, someone did genealogical research–and there is no evidence of Bundy or his forefathers ranching THIS land since the 1870s–his father bought this ranch, moving from Aridzone, in the 1950s. Bundy’s mother came from Utah.

        • “Someone”. Who you don’t quote. I’m shocked they actually pay your for trolling so awfully.

    • Bundy made huge profits off the G? The last I checked, Pope Paul, religious institutions were raking it in without having to pay any taxes.

      But I guess there’s no moral dilemma when churches are lining their pockets.

    • If Bundy doesn’t want to pay the BLM for the use of federal land I’m okay with that but I haven’t gotten my check from him for my share that he’s using…

    • “If Bundy and his supporters were black, they would all be in prison by now. Or worse.”

      No, they wouldn’t. Let’s be crystal clear about that.

      Sharpton, Jackson, and a legion of race hustlers would have had the whole thing streaming 24/7 on all the national networks, pounding themes of racial injustice down our throats. Low-info reactionaries everywhere would have been parading with signs saying “We are all Cliven Bundy.” President Obama would have chimed in with some comment about how if he’d had a father (or grandfather), he’d look a lot like Cliven Bundy. Eric Holder would have directed the Attorney General’s office to look into the disproportionate racial effects of grazing fees in the western US. The IRS would be preparing audits for people they think the president doesn’t like. And the press would play along with the racial injustice narrative because even though it’s regrettable that Bundy didn’t pay years of grazing fees, he’s black, so really the system owes him.

      • This exact thing happened with the USDA a few years ago, remember? They supposedly “denied crop loans disproportionately to black farmers.” All the aggrieved black farmers had to do was contact the USDA and they would receive a nice fat check. People all over the US, especially those in large cities, got a check. Even if they had never seen a live tree in their life.

    • so your argument is, “The Feds stole it fair in an, as yet unprecedented act of genocide, square so now you have to pay for it….”

  3. The bill, by the way, is about $1.35 per animal per month.

    Correct me if I’m wrong…..but that cost is what drove 50 other nearby ranchers to bankruptcy over the past 20 years to the point that Bundy is the last rancher in the county. If that is the case how is that proper “management” from the BLM?

    Secondly, Bundy’s opinions of blacks has nothing to do with grazing costs of cattle. Common tactic of a leftist media is to get their opponent to stumble on something completely unrelated. If Bundy didn’t say anything wrong about blacks the next question would have been about gay marriage, climate change, or silicon breast implants.

    With all that said, as said before, the MFM has made this case radioactive and they’ve achieved their objective of supposedly tying “gun nuts” with racism.

    • Well, I can’t comment on the finances of those ranchers, but $1.53/month is a fraction of the going price for grazing on private land, and a staggeringly low cost for feeding any animal that size.

      • Don’t know crap about cattle ranching but by my layman’s look at that near-desert scrub land I would fully expect that the cost of leasing that land SHOULD RIGHTFULLY be a fraction compared to what I would think would be good grazing land (you know like maybe some REAL GRASS and oh maybe some WATER) instead of the cactus, rocks, and tumbleweeds of what I saw.

    • If the ranchers can’t make a go of it at this price, then the BLM has a duty to bring in a tenant that will pay hard cash–millions in hard cash–to use the land for some other purpose. Sounds like good management to me. These are very marginal ranch lands.

      • What makes me think that all this money that may flow in from Chinese solar panel farms will end up in the Reid’s family pockets instead of the US treasury.

        • I would think any profits that don’t go to the Reids will go to the Chinese government. According to some trolls here, that’s more in the public interest than a cattle ranch that pays taxes to Nevada and the U.S. Treasury.

          But that’s what trolls are for, isn’t it?

    • It wasn’t the price that drove out the ranchers, it was the decrease in their grazing allotment. Bundy himself was cut from 900 to 150 head. So what does it matter what the price is?

      • Well there you go…..there’s that great Management of the BLM.

        Classic “We’re here from the government and here to help.”

      • As I understand it, the allotment was cut after the two losses in court and subsequent middle finger waving at the Feds. They couldn’t get him out by jacking up the cost (also affectionately known in other venues as “price rigging”), so they decreased his allotment size to roughly 15% of what it was. In six months they would have cut that in half. Rinse and repeat until only his dog would be allowed to graze.

        Simultaneously divert the water he uses for his melon ranch, and this Fall he joins the other former ranchers in that area of the state.

  4. You have to look past the isolated incident and look at the bigger issue. Bundys beef with the feds ( pun intended ) is representative of the general consensus of an over reaching government. So he is a racist, and grazing his cattle on public land.. maybe he is a scoundrel in general and not well liked by his neighbors. Are Americans supposed to wait for Just the right socially acceptable victim to validate their resistance against an over reaching government?

    • Oh, good grief. Bundy is not a racist. The mere mention of the word “Negro” is not an indication of racism. Repeating this libtard meme is a cheap shot at an old man who’s trying his best to protect his entire way of life. Go watch the doggone video! His point is that underclass Blacks have traded one kind of slavery for another kind of slavery. The man is talking about liberty and freedom for everyone.

      Cliven Bundy is everyman. He’s you and he’s me. This guy has taken on the entire federal government by himself. He’s alone in this fight. He deserves better than to be unfairly dismissed as a racist.

      • Also, his comments about the family values and incredible work ethic of hispanics should further dispel any claims of racism.

    • WHAT “neighbors”? He doesn’t have any. And if he did, I’m pretty sure they’d like him, whether they be Whites, Blacks or Indians. It’s pretty obvious that he’s a square dealer to everyone, no matter what. As long as they ain’t government.

      HE HAS TWO BLACK MEN staying at his ranch, for god’s sake. And they’re FREE MEN, not slaves.

  5. Sounds like more potentially made up bull to make gun owners look crazy. Maybe the Federal Bureau of Land Management is being heavy handed under this administration’s orders, I don’t know.

    What I do know is this is a local issue and there is no reason to be making these kinds of statements. You want to kill someone over the feds claiming eminent domain or what have you? That’s nice, enjoy your stay in prison and/or the dirt. Don’t try to associate “gun owners” with your Rambo: First Blood inspired daydreams. Thanks.

  6. I have the solution to the problem. Everyone in America goes vegan (no commercial or ranch raised meat and no dairy too) thereby eliminating the demand-side for meat and thus the commercial incentive to ranch. For those big city people who want to still want to eat meat no-license-needed hunting preserves stocked with wild game animals can be established in San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park, Chicago’s Lincoln Park, and NYC Central Park.

    I bet you are all thanking me for this brilliant idea.

    • But your bosses still get to eat all the meat they like, right?

      Keep wagging your tail and drooling for table scraps, by all means. They’ll toss you some, now and then.
      Until they’re through with you.

  7. It was never all about Bundy. It was about snipers, turtles & an out of control federal agency. As far as the old guy being RACIST maybe you should talk to his black bodyguard. In no way am I defending his diatribe. Once again from an evil old white man married to a beautiful black woman.

  8. In the article, this Shaw character expresses the opinion that militia members don’t need a lot of specialized training. That is blithering stupid. Tactics and intelligence matter more than equipment, more than numbers, and especially more than “balls”. You may win in sports by “wanting it more”, but wars are won by the side that consistently makes effective use of its men and materiel. Getting a bunch of guys with guns and no training together and thinking you have an army has been the downfall of militia from the French and Indian Wars through the Revolution, the Civil War, the Battle of Oxford, and, if you want to count it, Waco.

    When and if these guys go toe to toe with the feds, they are going to get slaughtered.

      • What, exactly, besides recruiting new terrorists, is the US trying to accomplish over there anyway? How does making war on someone half-way across the world make the lives of Americans better? Is there a “mission statement?” What would have to happen in order to say, “We Won and it’s over and we’re coming home?”

        • It’s a war for control of the poppy fields and mineral deposits. And the Chinese are rapidly filling the void we’re leaving.

        • Yup. My understanding is that some of the largest deposits of Lithium in the world (think Li-Ion and LiPo batteries) are found in Afghanistan.

        • Somewhere on YouTube, there is a Fox report by Geraldo Rivera (I know, he’s personally repulsive, but set that aside), from the Afghan poppy fields, which are being guarded by American troops.

          He talks to one trooper, who tells him, “We hate doing this, but these are our orders.”

          The CIA and drug smuggling is to peanut butter and chocolate. Like cheese and burgers. Bacon and eggs.
          It funds their black budget, and also retirement accounts far and above anything the ordinary government employee could ever dream of.

        • “The CIA and drug smuggling is to peanut butter and chocolate. Like cheese and burgers. Bacon and eggs.”

          Aw, you missed a golden opportunity to say “cocaine and waffles.”

      • Wow, using ethnic slurs…Ralph is a credit to TTAG.


        People like Ralph hurt the fight for gun rights more than any demanding mom.

        • It was SARCASM, dumbass. Go play with the children, and leave TTAG to the adults, son.

        • Even IF I give him the benefit of the doubt that the invective was sarcastic, using sarcasm in that way is pretty dumb since the people we’re fighting against aren’t above deliberately taking things out of context to paint us a bigots. If I accidentally took his meaning wrong, then imagine how easy it would be for some race-sensitive middle-of-the-roader to reject the message because of the messenger.

        • Isn’t it time to admit you’re way out of your depth here? The crap that comes out of you here is proof aplenty of it.

  9. This only shows that all gun owners are evil and wish to find reasons to shoot innocent baby children who were just walking home from pointing sniper rifles at their families.

    Fortunately, our $50 million grassroots campaign for #gunsense is supported by a majority of NRA members and will someday yield more than hash tags. #ForTheChildren

    • Everytown, clear thinking isn’t your strength is it?
      Please keep posting since you boys and girls keep making fools of yourself.

      from the above posted comment by Everytown for GunSafety:
      “all gun owners are evil…”
      “is supported by a majority of NRA members”

      Today’s modern liberalism (not the old classical moderate liberals from 50+ years ago) is a mental disorder that includes irrational or illogical thinking, and habitual lying which is also called pseudologia fantastica or mythomania.

        • Why don’t you learn to act with a modicum of professionalism (hard for someone without a job, I know) and not insult people.

          You’re supposed to be a mod/contributor: act like it. Just because these guys didn’t get the joke, you have to insult them? That makes you feel better? You “work” for a site, then insult its readers.

        • I have a job. Your information is old. Yay me.

          As to the rest, pfft. I’m not a moderator. I have the ability, true, but I haven’t exercised it in months. I make no apologies for my comments. If someone is in such a hurry to make devoid-of-meaning knee-jerk “liberalism is a mental disorder” comments in response to what they thought they read that they fail to comprehend what was actually said, then they deserve what they get.

          Here’s a general protip that has worked well for me: If someone makes you so mad (or you think they’re so wrong) that you just can’t wait to hit that “Post Comment” button on your textual obliteration of their stupidity, you should type up what you think, and then go make a drink, or pet the dog or something. Come back in a few minutes, and read it over again, both their comment and your response. Often, you’ll find that your comment is unnecessary, or an overreaction, or based on a misunderstanding, and you can at that point decide that discretion is the better part of valor, and not post it.

        • In a world where the antis really do utter stuff this crazy, I try to to cut folks some slack for not ‘getting it’.

          At least the first time. By now though…

        • “At least the first time. By now though…”

          Precisely. There’s an internet rule called Poe’s Law, which states that “without a clear indication of the author’s intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism.” This does not even begin to rise to that level, and was obvious satire. So obvious as to almost be clumsy.

        • Really Matt? Whenever I see a post or comment written by you (that doesn’t involve me) I skip reading it so not to waste my time. Based on your emotional replies to my comment above you need to lighten up and grow some skin.

          The comment I responded to is very much represented of the thinking, writing, and actions of the anti-2A crowd.

        • I’m OK with that. I might do the same with you, but there are so many Aarons and names are so easily changeable here that I just read them all (well, most of them) and let the content determine my reaction.

        • No effing joke, Matt. It makes me wish I had a snort of REAL booze in the house, such as a couple shots of Rebel Yell or Wild Turkey. Unbelievable.

    • Keep deluding yourself into believing that all gun owners are crazy and want to kill everyone/everything. Maybe try looking at the larger picture and not your irrational and ridiculous fears and relying on your complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

    • Good comment.

      In before someone comes along and claims that Snopes is part of the conspiracy and a tool of the administration, and that we all just need to open our eyes.

    • I rightly don’t trust or believe literally anything that comes from Snopes. They’re literally on-par with Mother Jones, which tells you how far down the food chain they are (READ: at the very bottom).

      However, it is true that the solar plant deal fell through last summer, so there’s no more connection there.

      • SCG pulled his video claiming there WAS a connection and posted this one as his response (to himself, I guess):

        The dude is very articulate and his vids are quite thought provoking. I truly admire the way he pulled his old video on Reid and Bundy when someone pointed out to him that the solar deal was ‘off’ in 2013.

        Wish the MSM had his integrity (like, for example, reporting, “No Blood in Streets after CC laws passed!” or some such…that would be refreshing).

        • So… articulate people can’t be full of shit? The grainy filmstock overlay on this video certainly doesn’t do much to convince me that he’s interested in reporting the facts.

  10. My whole take on the situation….

    Unless you have PROOF of the facts and KNOW the facts, don’t talk about who’s right or wrong. Last time i checked, the government TOOK the land…that’s right TOOK the land from the Native Americans. Someone took it from them. Why should it matter if it’s federal or public land. What are they doing with it? Nothing. Let the cattle graze til it’s time to use the land for something useful. Til then. Shut up about it.

    • So when you arent’t home, I can use your house?

      The guy is a moocher. Why are we giving people already getting a break (incredibly low grazing fees) a free ride?

      • Bitch about the bank bailouts and the corporate subsidies if you want to talk about a moochers, they get BILLIONS in welfare to crush out competitors and control prices or in the case of the bailout, maintain their high standard of corruption. If the feds told you, 20 years after the fact, you have been in violation of the endangered species act when you built your home on a parcel of land, and owed them a substantial amount of fines racked up for 20 years of “violations” don’t tell me you would sit there and take it. They pull this bullshit all over the country utilizing the Endangered Species Act to pull land grabs, stymie development of private property, and screw over citizens, under the feel good guise of protecting wildlife; something they “protect” so well, they’re willing to kill recovering numbers back to maintain an endangered or threatened status and continue to utilize it for their sanctioned theft.

        • They’ll never mention that in a million years. Which should tell you where their allegiances lie. And I DO mean LIE.

    • And before the U.S. government took it from those indians, those indians took it from some other indians, and so the circle goes. At some point (often at Statehood) a line is drawn, and what happened before doesn’t really matter.

        • I didn’t actually do that. I was just pointing out that “the federal government took it from the Native Americans” is kind of a weak argument. You’re letting your personal enmity towards me control your commenting.

        • Matt,

          Your projecting your own negative feelings and behaviors towards me with your excessive criticism. There was no rational reason for you to go off as you did above in your reaction to my comment.

        • Just to be clear, you’re referring to the comment where you completely misread the satirical post as being real, and responded accusing them of unclear thinking, that they were making fools of themselves, and that liberalism is a mental disorder, right?

          I didn’t “go off.” I just suggested that you learn to read critically, and then respond (or not) appropriately. My statement stands. You said someone was foolish because you missed the joke.

      • Yes, it does. Stealing people’s land always matters. So you think a bank robbery doesn’t matter? Steal something from a governmental agency, and you’ll find out how much it matters.

        Unless the thief has ample connections.

        • Steal 100 million dollars from one man, and they will track you down and put you in an iron cage. Steal a dollar apiece from 100 million people, and they will elect you president.

  11. Step back from what Bundy said, dive deeper into what he meant. Bundy is the last of a non PC generation and uses words of his culture, life experiences and values. I suspect his meaning was….work vs. handout and how it effects society. Government redistributes wealth to cover others basic needs, food & shelter. If this satisfies a large percentage of our population and no incentive to get off the dole or educate or find your bullseye, then you have a future generations trapped into poverty. Not having the capacity to speak in today’s words by no means diminishes the message. What’s lame is every politician distancing themselves base on a mans poor vocabulary than embracing a message from a citizen.

    Completely agree with Paul McCain on Bundy and YouAreWrong concerning this event is about government overreach and applying overwhelming force for an issue to be settled in courts.

    Fat guy claiming he’s ready to kill, is my entertainment for the day.

  12. Many of us don’t care about Bundy. We are sick and tired of fellow Americans being pushed around by unconstitutional administrative agencies like the BLM (FDA, USDA, EPA etc etc).

    These militia members are just taking a stand–no one cares about Bundy’s personal views–our 1st Amendment allows it.

    • Yup, I could give 2 craps about Bundy himself. What angered me what is essentially a federal fence and well construction agency enforcing 1st amendment zones out in the desert with swat teams, snipers, dogs, and tasering protesters who failed to respect their authoritah.

      • And everybody forgets about the Las Vegas PD MRAP and SWAT that were standing by a couple of miles up the Interstate. THAT gave me the willies.

  13. I thought this guy did a wonderful job on TV. He was cool, articulate and answered in a pretty non-threatening way. Who would you want as a neighbor? This guy or Harry Reid. This guy or Al Sharpton? This guy or Sen. McCain? There is no doubt in my mind…

  14. Some points to add in here.

    One, Bundy is risking civil war over his own pocketbook. When Bush II invaded Iraq, a lot of words like “warmonger” were thrown around . So why is it that it’s OK to set off civil war over land accounting disputes.

    “The Government has Turned Tyrannical!”

    Well, bravo. Except where was this patriotism when Obama decreed that ALL OF US have to get healthcare whether we want to or not? Where was this patriotism when a LEO turned up dead due to an operation by his superiors in the Federal Justice Department?

    Where was this patriotism at the State level when CT and NY decided to outlaw the Second Amendment?

    Where was all this concern for the Constitution when our embassy in Libya was abandoned to the enemy?

    Those are all objectively good reasons to say “Mount UP!”in opposition to the respective government bodies. Those reasons also have national significance for every citizen in America.

    Yet, the guns stayed silent. Why? Probably because people understand that war isn’t a joke. It’s not a game, and CoD aside, it’s not the least bit entertaining. You don’t pick up arms unless every peaceful solution to the problem is either impractical, or has been attempted without resolution. As such, with regard to this mess, the easiest solution is for Cliven Bundy to drink a tall glass of STFU.

  15. The bigger issue is the ongoing total militarization of all of America’s “civilian” law enforcement agencies. From the local po’dunk sherif’s Departments with war surplus armoured vehicles to BLM,( an agency created to Manage land) in full military “Battle Rattle” wearing camouflage BDUs, setting dogs on protestors and snipers trained on civilians.

    So whether the fees levied were legal or moral is this the kind of response the land management agency should come back with?

    We are the only nation in history whose Federal Education Department doesn’t employ a single teacher but has its own SWAT team.

    We should be asking why every useless, 3 letter bureaucracy has its own sniper team, armed vehicles and Blackhawk helicopters and are so willing to use them against the civillian population.

    That’s the real issue.

    • That’s certainly a major issue, and one of the issues at play here, but another issue is the number of small government proponents who have rallied around this nutball. I’ve been a staunch, active and voting Libertarian for 12 years and I’m afraid that my party, which has made tremendous progress over the past decade, has been hijacked by a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing lunatics. It’s going from being the one true home of freedom to being relegated to the looneybin of history.

  16. And Bundy – like many yokels – has the nerve to talk about blacks, welfare, section 8, etc., while freeloading!

    Like many (unemployed/underemployed) staunch “Republicans” I’ve encountered: “Govt handouts, welfare, blah, blah; hey, where’s my unemployment check?”

    • This “Bundy is on handouts” meme is the most insidious, evil and downright WRONG thing I’ve heard, ever.

      But I understand it’s your job to continue on-message. After all, it’s a job.

        • To the truly stupid, everyone else is more stupider. It’s a measure of comfort, isn’t it, when you’ve got nothing valid to present?

          By way of example, I had a neighbor kid, in his twenties. The unit was rented by his aunt and her daughter. He refused to work, and his parents and everyone else had gone way past their patience and “understanding”.

          I’m getting to a point. Hang in there. Or not. She had a job, and left the two cousins at home alone all day. ‘Nuff said about that.

          She evidently gave him her hard-earned money, and fed, clothed and sheltered him. He would go buy whiskey, and in the middle of the night, he’s play the stereo at speaker-busting levels. If you called the Sheriff’s Department on him and they knocked, he’d go hide in a closet or under the bed. This didn’t go well with the deputies.

          Eventually, they were kicked out. I got to see the inside. He had left tubs running, and the floorboards were rotten. In his room (yes, of two bedrooms, he got his own), he had smeared shit all over the walls, including the saying, “F*CK THESE APES”.

          You see, he considered his aunt and cousin, who had done there best to take care of him, though he deserved not a bit of it, to be “apes”, compared to him…

          That kid may as well have been you.

        • Seriously. You are stupid and probably mentally ill. I’m not basing that on a single post, I’m basing that on every single post I’ve seen you make over several years. I’m sure in your head the word swirling around make sense, but let me assure you that on paper they make exactly zero sense, and thus I have exactly zero idea what that rambling anecdote was intended to convey. Every time a person like you lights up a comments section with word-salad you immediately convince any fence-sitting readers that all gun owners are unbalanced nut jobs.

  17. MarkF nails it…..”We should be asking why every useless, 3 letter bureaucracy has its own sniper team, armed vehicles and Blackhawk helicopters and are so willing to use them against the civillian population. That’s the real issue.”

    Our Federal leadership and bureaucracy is infected with building castles, not representing or working for our citizens..

    • So you are ok with the response/ Snipers and feds in full battle uniform ready to kill men and cattle over unpaid fines? Not to mention the selective enforcement.

      Al Sharpton owes 1.9 million in back taxes, when are the armed agents gonna collect on that?

        • And holds the position, “America’s #1 Race-Baiter”. Or maybe that’s Abe Foxman, who’s such scum he made his wife watch him have sex with his girlfriend, right in bed beside her.

          Don’t think so? Google “Abe Foxman Divorce Papers”.

  18. If you are looking for clean as the driven snow causes and leaders for a revolt you arent going to find any. Revolt will be as dirty and dark as the existing power structure.

    Another reason to be temperate and slow to action

  19. So THIS is the barricade the militia types are willing to die on? A racist freeloader?

    They’ll accomplish the same thing McViegh did – martyring the Federal government.

    • Bundy is so last week. There are other barricades to go to: “Much closer to home, Shaw expressed his concern about the BLM’s alleged land grab along the Red River boundary between his home state of Oklahoma and Texas. Shaw expressed to the families of the land owners involved that his members are prepared to come to their aid, if asked by the property owners.
      “We were willing to travel almost 1,200 miles to Nevada to help out our neighbors over there, we’ll definitely drive two hours to help out our neighbors on the Red River.” FYI, this was never really about Bundy. But extra credit for adhering to Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals, rule no. 12: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)”

    • ” martyring the Federal government.”

      WTF? In what way were they martyred? And how much do you get for doing such a lousy job?

  20. I was thoroughly enjoying this thread, with reasoned thoughts on what a militia can do and what a government’s response is likely to be. Interesting stuff and, who knows? Maybe important. But then, like flies to roadkill, it all comes back to the great debate over Bundy’s worthiness in all of this. That issue has divided gun folks more than the great 9mm debate.

  21. So if the occupy movement had armed themselves would these right wing militias start deploying in support of them against the big bad gummint.

    • Apples and Oranges. You, nor can anyone else even explain what the occupy movement was actually protesting against. I don’t recall Feds in military uniforms, M-16, snipers and Blackhawks circling the occupy encampments. It was the opposite, in almost cities the local governments allowed them to stay in parks in open violation of city ordinances prohibiting overnight camping.

      All the lefties are hung up on the response, they don’t care about the Army the feds deployed against a family and cows. Of course lefties have always been comfortable with feds overuse of power as it is almost exclusively used against people the left finds “yucky” Branch Dravidians, The Weavers (Rudby Ridge) and now Cliven Bundy.

        • Seriously: it’s not the Bundy to Koresh comparison that needs to be made … it’s the government’s armed response to both that is the common thread and the point of contention.

          No matter what anyone’s beef with Koresh may or may not have been, there were over 80 other people, including children, that died in that confrontation without due process, no proper investigation, destruction of evidence and no penalties for those involved.

          No matter what anyone’s beef with Bundy is or is not, his son was arrested without probable cause, first amendment was declared “void” except in certain approved areas and agents pointed loaded rifles at people that were committing no crime.

        • I compared the use of force. When have the Feds deployed this type of force against other folks who owe money? It’s only done when Democrats are in office and it’s only against people who the left considers “out of the mainstream” Which is exactly why nothing was done against occupy protesters, they are part of the left. Which is why a Fed SWAT team was deployed against Gibson guitars. Owned by a man who donates to republicans, 100ks of thousands of wood and guitars confiscated, 18 months later charges still not filed. I could go on. But, I am guessing there is no point.

          Al Sharpton owes 1.9 mil in back taxes, where is the Fed Army to collect on that?

    • “So if the occupy movement had armed themselves’

      If the people who composed the occupy movement had instead been of a mind to arm themselves, there wouldn’t have been an occupy movement.

      • You’re absolutely correct. I suspect the NYPD or other local PD agents would have happily supplied them with all the armament they could have dreamed of just before they rounded them up. Like what happened in NY and Chicago.

  22. Well, if this is the hill he’s ready to die on, that’s his choice. Somehow I don’t think there will be as many other people willing to do so there to make it anything but a futile gesture. It’s a good time to read up on the Whiskey Rebellion…

    • It’s also well PAST time to read up on some of Thomas Jefferson’s statements regarding rebellions. 😉

      What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.

      I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.

      • Interesting how the math works out, isn’t it? A little rebellion every 20 years or less makes more sense in that light. IMHO, we’ve strayed so far from Liberty because there hasn’t been enough real rebellion.

        God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. – Thomas Jefferson

        • Thailand, at least when I was there in the 1970’s, had a revolution every few years, but like we have the Constitution, they have their king, whom they adore. And they’re mostly Buddhists. The revolutions are usually virtually bloodless, maybe a few dozen casualties,, and they throw out all of the cabinet ministers and what-not, and elect all new ones.

  23. The best gun fight is the one you don’t have. The government is patient. They’ll push the issue to the breaking point, stop there, “educate the public” (public schools), wait a decade, pass laws, push the issue further, repeat. Patriots will become terrorists, then the militia movement will be demonized. Then the ignorant masses will approve the use of force, if necessary.

  24. I am so god damn tired of the Bundy’s and all of the idiots supporting him. He and his friends do more to damage small government, libertarian and pro-2A activism than the genetically mutated, irradiated spawn of Shannon Watts, Michael Moore, Michael Bloomberg and Diane Feinstein (good luck getting that image out of your head) could ever do. This has gone from a plausible case of government overreach and failure to simply seek a remedy through the courts to a full blown tinfoil hat clusterfuck built around a crazy old racist who doesn’t want to pay for land he’s using. He’s literally handed the MSM a pile of gun owner stereotypes for these idiots to play day in, day out, and it’s ridiculous.

  25. What a bunch of crap. What the hell does the federal government do that requires an armed uprising? Am I missing these FEMA death camps?

  26. al Qaeda and the Taliban neither have CAS, but their guerrilla tactics have been rewriting text books at the war college for the better part of a decade and brass at the pentagon have had their hands full. Bloodshed on any level inside the borders of the United States will be bookoo bad publicity.

  27. “To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.” Sun Tzu

  28. Not to be argumentative, but this is probably not the best example. The Taliban are “staying” and we are leaving because this government no longer knows how to win wars.

    It selected to operate within the COIN paradigm because this White House and his hand-picked G-Grade Officers chose to ignore the influence of religion on the population and it’s Taliban fighters and in so doing, lost control of the battle space, and the support of the American people who are now tired of seeing War Fighters returning in body bags…for nothing.

  29. for those of you who think Wikipedia is a good source to get info from you obviously did not go to college. not to preach or anything, but Dieing for something you believe in is what this country was founded on. As a marine, i’d give my life for my country. Do i believe in all points of view in this country no. Actually i rather hate where this great nation is going, BUT that is the freedom i stand for. Instead of being a little broke back bitch with no sense of value or patriotic drive. why not get the hell out so those who want what is promised in our constitution can fight our battle with a growing tyrant. Much rather read about those fighting and dieing then pathetic bitches complaining about lack of Air support. If you need air support make friends with some patriotic pilots.

    • for those of you who think Wikipedia is a good source to get info from you obviously did not go to college.

      That’s an incorrect statement. I am well educated and have even done some teaching. There’s a lot of good information on Wikipedia. At one time teachers and professors shunned Wikipedia due to it’s open source nature. Now, those I encounter shunning it are usually out of touch or are insecure about their level of knowledge on a subject. Just like most any other resource, Wikipedia is not the end-all. However, it can be a fine resource.

      As to the rest of what you wrote… I can’t disagree with the spirit behind it but can’t stand by the tone. But, that’s just one man’s opinion.

  30. None of you have got the point of Bundy let me make it as ez as I can it is governing at gun point plain and simple. The BLM could have just put leans on his land and cows like anyone else but chose to put guns in his face to force him off the land. Bundy being right or wrong isn’t the point it’s all about using force when none was needed. What all of you that are saying he is the bad guy is that if anyone owes money to the government it is OK if they show up at your house with the swat team to come get the money you owe them.


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