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As you can see, I’ve got something of an issue with a brand new (as in unfired) Kel-Tec Sub-2000. I’m not particularly perturbed by the problem, which may not even be a problem, eventually. Any excuse to go to the gun store’s OK with me. But I’ve got a one Mulligan gun purchase policy. If the next Sub-2000 through suffers from QC issues, or if my gun store can’t find the time to find the box for a new gun, my business will quickly gravitate elsewhere. Where’s your point-of-no-more-returns? How many times have you reached it with which guns?

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  1. the time i was cleaning my hi point carbine and the firing pin assembly fell out of the back of the gun, rendering it useless, until i figure out what pieces to order, or send it back to the so i can hawk it ASAP. a modern firearm that can fall apart so easily after take down is worthless to me.

  2. I sent a Tomcat that was a couple of years old to Beretta b/c the front pin was loose so I wasn’t sure if it was safe. They sent me a new Tomcat.

  3. I had a Century Arms FN FAL that would only eat premium ammo. That had to go. I traded it for a Bushmaster AR-15 (new) that after firing one magazine, would not cycle the bolt all the way back to chamber another round. I could have sent it back to Bushmaster, but why bother? I got rid of it and bought a SOCOM 16 off of Gun Broker. It shot 12 inches to the left at 25 yards. I sent it to Springfield Armory and they put a new barrel on it and it worked great! So naturally I sold it and bought a Dan Wesson V bob that I will never, ever sell. When I decided I wanted a rifle again,I bought an Arsenal AK-47. Why? Because it works every time, is cheap to shoot, and I don’t have to avoid an op rod. So to answer the question, I get rid of a gun as soon as I don’t like/trust it.

  4. by the way robert, i would HIGHLY sugggest the kel-tec ffactory stock extension ($10-11) the added LOP makes it just perfect AND it will guide the front sight into place so that it locks in everytime. i highly recommend that if/when you get the sub back and it would pretty much remedy your problem. i understand you not being happy with it and given the luxury of time (4-6 weeks) i would say you deserve to have “perfect” gun if it just came out of the box. i wouldn’t be worried about THAT being a safety issue though.

    the folding feature definitely makes the firearm my most compact long gun so if SHTF guess which one i’m gonna have on me if i have to be discreet & on the move? if you have a matching pistol the mag sharing is a HUGE plus. i drilled mag-catch holes in my beretta mags so that they’ll work in my xd-9 and i can now share my investment between the guns…

      • the barrel was actually bent?!? or was it just the hinge that was off?

        i mean if the hinge was a touch off it would make it not line up perfectly when folded but wouldn’t affect accuracy because the sights & barrel would still be straight and in line.

        i’ll be honest with you, the most important upgrade on that firearm is the stock extension. if you put that on, it will line up the lock every time you fold it. if you don’t think it’s worth $11 and would rather get rid of the sub, its your loss i guess. those things are extremely popular for a reason…

  5. Two. I have a Sccy CPX-1 (essentially a Kel-Tec PF-11 clone) that is a problem child and has been back to the factory three or four times. It’s reliable in short training sessions, but can’t stand up to more than 150 rounds through it at one time.

    I don’t carry it anymore, for those reasons.

    My CZ P07 has been back to the factory once to fix an issue with the mags dropping free. I’m about halfway thru a 2000 round challenge with it, and so far everything is hunky and/or dory with it.

  6. I have sent 2 revolvers I purchased used off of gunbroker back to S&W when upon receipt I noticed barrels that were either under- or over-torqued. For 99% of shooters this is a non-issue, and it is not a safety issue. But for a target shooter it is a nightmare.

    They sent me UPS account #’s to use on their dime, and they returned the guns promptly in perfect order.

    I was up front that the guns were used, second hand, and they did not care.

    They have a customer for life in me, and as far as I’m concerned, no other revolver manufacturer exists.

  7. Had a serious problem with a Kimber Tactical Pro II – consistent failures to feed, failures to eject, slide stop not working, ejected brass between the eyes, etc. Returned to Kimber twice with no luck. On the third go around, they offered to replace, so went with a CDP II direct from their ‘custom’ shop.

    The new pistol works brilliantly, except when using old style Wilson mags. Which strikes me as weird, but that’s a 1911 I suppose.

  8. Para Ordnance, SIG, S&W and Taurus have all received new guns back from me at one time or another to address some sort of manufacturing defect issue.

  9. Remington 742 autoloader in .30-06 that tore the rim off one side of the case without extracting the case. After going through 10 cases with this issue, a gunsmith friend constricted the gas port a bit and it worked OK. Unfortunately, I then discovered that it was the most inaccurate rifle I have ever owned – 5″ groups at 100 yards with a scope, from the bench. Finally took it back for a refund.

    Note to Kel-Tec 2000 owners who have a beard or mustache: add a plastic “beard shield” with electrician’s tape to the side of the stock where the bolt zips back and forth right next to your cheek. This will prevent a very serious flinch.

  10. Two so far: a Century AK-74 with an American-made barrel that was either oversized (5.56mm instead of 5.45mm) or didn’t have enough twist to stabilize the 5.45×39’s ‘knitting needle’ steel-core 7N6 ammo, and the Armalite M-15 that had a feed ramp problem.

    And Robert, you know the Mopar fanboys were telling you to ‘Get Bent’ for years back at TTAC. They finally got their wish.

  11. Kel Tec P3at. Jams constantly. Not reparable with new barrel and slide. Currently back at the factory. If not perfect on return they have lost a customer for life.

    Meh, they have probably lost me as a customer anyway.

    • does the “fluff and buff” apply to your gun? it did for my p-11 and it is very dependable after i performed it also using miltech oil made a big difference…

  12. I have only had problems with 2 new guns.

    The first was a KAHR K9. Would not feed anything with any sort of reliability. And not remotely accurate when it did. It went back to KAHR and came back looking much better. A new barrel, polished inside and out. And it still wasn’t reliable or accurate. I sold that one off quickly.

    The second was my first generation P3AT. Like 2 digit first generation. It just wouldn’t feed hollow points. Back it went to Kel-Tec. Like the KAHR, it came back very shinny. IT feed just about anything at that point. Til the slide cracked a month later. Back it went. A new hard chromed slide, and 2 extra magazines came back with it. It has worked fine since then. Spent a lot of time in my pocket.

  13. I had a Beretta A391 12 gauge that broke a few buffer pins before it quit doing that. Once back to the factory, next time I said just give me the part since it’s easy to change. That’s not typical for this gun and the second replacement lasted a few thousand rounds right up to the day I sold it.

  14. A used Ruger 10/22. I took it back to the gun shop where I bought it. They gave me a sweet deal on a new Ruger 10/22.

  15. I’m fairly new to the firearms game, but I’ve never had to send a gun back. There have been guns that I’ve ended up not being able to shoot well and frankly I hate not being able to test drive guns before purchase due to there not being many combination shop/ranges in my area. But, knock on wood, no defects or major issues yet.

  16. Of course it’s bent, cuz it’s a cheap plastic Kel Tec. These guys have never been known for their high standards or quality products. I’ve never had to return any gun, and all my guns are a high quality firearms. I’ve been lucky enough to never have bought a lemon (yet), but even expensive guns can have quality issues.

  17. S&W 686+ 6″. Couldn’t get through a full cylinder without a misfire. Tried several brands of ammo, no luck. It would just get a light primer strike at different charge holes for no apparent reason. Returned it to the dealer for a refund and bought a nearly unfired used Model 19 (pinned and recessed) for a third of the cost. Works great and I have had it for over 15 years and fired thousands of rounds through it with no problems.

  18. Taurus 94-4 .22 LR. Cylinder locked up every other shot. They fixed it, although it took 3 months. The gun still has the absolute worst trigger I’ve yet to experience. Even the SA pull is a chore. It’s basically a hammer that, oh by the way, will pop off a .22 if you’re willing to work hard enough.

  19. I’ve had the opportunity to use the service departments of most of the firearms manufacturers. These are the ones I remember off the top of my head:

    –Remington 11-87. From new, it would jam about every third shot. After nine months and many (pre-internet) phone calls, Remington replaced the receiver and gave it back. They upgraded from plain to engraved receiver and it has worked fine since.

    –Beretta Model 21 Bobcat .22LR. Many, many failures-to-eject. Whoever designed a semiauto without an extractor was a nutjob. Beretta tried several times, but never could get the thing reliable. I gave up and sold it.

    –Used Charter Arms Undercover .38. Returned it, still warm from the range, to a local dealer because it had locked up solid within 25 rounds. An honest man, he gave me store credit toward a different gun.

    –Taurus Model 85 UL .38. Sent it back twice for cylinder gap that was too small. After I got it back the second time, I sold it.

    –S&W Model 66 .357 snubby. The forcing cone deformed after several thousand rounds of full-power magnums. Yep, the K-frames are a little delicate. For a modest fee ($150-$200), Smith remachined the rear of the barrel, reset the gap, replaced the hammer and trigger.

    –Thompson Center Contender. Action would pop open when firing .44 magnum. This was fixed quickly. Has been fine since.

    –Ruger Single Six. This convinced me that Ruger has the best service department in the industry. The pistol was 20 years old and very used when I bought it. I told Ruger this when I called about the hammer seizing. They said, “Just send it in and we’ll take a look at it.” Two weeks later, I received the gun with all new lockwork, a new box and manual, along with my old box. No charge, no questions asked. Awesome!

    For what it’s worth, I’ve never had any problems from my Kel-Tec P32 or PF-9.

  20. If memory serves, I bought my first gun sometime in the early 1970s. Prior to that, all my guns had been inherited from my father. There’s been quite a few guns pass through my hands over those nearly 40 years. Of the guns I’ve personally bought, I’ve only had to return two. There were a couple of other new guns with minor issues that I had resolved locally rather than return to the manufacturer. I’ve had surprisingly few major or minor problems with new guns.

    The first major problem was with a S&W 686 revolver I had special ordered from a local dealer. The cylinder rotation was stiff and began to bind after only a few rounds. The dealer had a gunsmith on staff who said he could fix it. What he did was to not only NOT fix it but to bugger up the ejection rod and crane. The dealer shipped it back to S&W and he paid for the proper repairs since S&W would not do it under warranty due to the obvious butchery.

    The other problem gun was a SIG P229. The trigger bar was defective…would not fire single action. SIG Customer Service was excellent. They paid for shipping both ways, corrected the problem and shipped it back to me within less than one week. The SIG has worked perfectly ever since.

  21. For me, anything over $300 is a one-shot deal. If anything is wrong with something I spent more than that on, it’s going back and I’m taking my money to another manufacturer’s product, or another model at the very least. I don’t have any patience for that kind of stuff. If you want me to blow my wad–so to speak–for the month on your product, you better get it right the first time.

    This basically means that ANY firearm better work out of the box. I don’t want a gun I’m not willing to trust my life with; and if it has failed me once, then I don’t trust it and it’s going in the dumpster or back to whoever I bought it from.

    This said, I’ve never had to return a firearm. I built all but one of my own AR rifles. The only guns I have that I haven’t built were from Barrett (Rec7) Benelli (M4) and Sig Sauer. None have failed me. The one failure I had was on an AR barrel assembly. I just sh*t-canned it and went to another manufacturer for a new barrel. I’ll never buy from the first one again. That’s how I roll.

  22. In the 80’s I sent back a Ruger 44. mag Carbine (cracked stock) and a Mini-14 (barrel corroded badly in storage). Ruger made replacements; no charge. The little 14 was stored next to a Soviet SKS that has accompanied me camping for 35 years with never a speck of rust. Good alloys (they fired AP & corrosive primers in ’em) beat tack driving accuracy any day of the week. Model Ten 6″ from 1940’s Swedish Mounted Constabulary went to Smith twice; still strikes light 1/10 rnds. I’ll tear it down when I have time and decide what to do with it. I parted into storage another used Model Ten 2″ with loose works and timing troubles. I’ve put 10,000 rounds through a third 10; with Crimson Trace sights it accompanies me for architectural photography in inner cities. You never know when you’re going to luck out on a gun…

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