Personal responsibility. That’s our policy. Whether it’s a gang banger, cop, armed self-defender or irresponsible gun owner, the person who pulls the trigger is responsible for what happens next. Not society. Not his or her mother or father. Not the NRA. So when I ask if race baiters/hustlers are in any way responsible for the actions of Ismaaiyl Abdula Brinsley, know that we’re talking about relative culpability. In other words, did Sharpton, Mayor Bill de Blasio and other racialists create a climate of hate that enabled Brinsley’s murderous “retribution” against police in general, the New York Police Department in particular? In the same sense that some Muslim clerics “inspire” adherents to commit atrocities against “infidels.” What’s your take?
Yes, of course they are responsible / culpable. Next question.
I’m thinking “Cop-Baiters” is more on target than Race Baiters. Otherwise the coward probably would have targeted white officers instead of an asian and a hispanic officer right? Is making this a racial-issue instead of a cowardly-attack-on-cops issue also race baiting? If some coward kills a couple protesters tomorrow, would that make us responsible? Makes for more interesting comments though. Thanks TTAG for further stoking the racial-tension fires.
Of course not! Should we blame Cliven Bundy on the dead officers in NV? You saw hundreds of peaceful demonstrations around the world with no violence, but one guy after he kills his girlfriend that morning decides he’s going to do something else to get attention and you think race baiters are the issue?
There is the uncomfortable truth that police officers kill black people like its in season.
You do have every gun law that exist because of race baiting. All of these gun laws were passed after the riots in the 60’s when the public thought it was problematic that black people had guns.
ABSOLUTELY along with the socialist progressive politicians AND their white-shirted show pony COP-WHORES.
But count on the MEDIA trying to tie each of US to this.
Ray
It’s nobody’s fault but the guy who pulled the trigger. Unless someone explicitly told them to kill cops then it’s only the fault of the guy who fired the weapon.
I don’t believe in blaming the actions of an individual on other people. We have free speech in this country, you can say what you want and if some psycho misinterprets your message and kills someone it’s not your fault UNLESS you specifically tasked them with that action.
We gun owners get blamed for the actions of other people all the time. Let’s not start doing the same thing to other people. We’re better than that.
They were chanting “what do we want? dead cops, when do we want it? Now.”
The difference between them blaming gun owners and the NRA for every gun victim ever is neither gun owners nor the NRA call for killing of innocent people or create a climate in which people would feel justified in killing innocent people. The rioters, Sharpton, de Blasio, Holder and yes, the Presidnt have created a climate where psychos would feel justified and vindicated in murdering cops by labeling every cop as racist. Just as they created a climate where white Bosnians are targeted with hammers by black teens because he was a white Bosnian.
In comments on TTAG I’ve seen calls for armed rebellion/civil war. I’ve seen advocates of asymetrical warfare call for the targeting of cops and soldiers and their families.
Do we share guilt if a right wing militia member does just that?
I was set to post, but you already did.
The people who make those comments are indeed responsible for adding to the zeitgeist, though not the acts themselves.
The specific people that chanted “we want dead cops”, and everyone else who was specifically calling for the actions that this sicko has carried out, do, indeed, share responsibilities for his actions. Not legal one (there’s this whole “imminent lawless action” thing) – though if push comes to shove, it’s up for the court to decide. But a moral one.
On the other hand, making factual statements, such as noting that police officers, on average, do treat people very differently depending on the race, has nothing to do with this.
ÎÎÎ THIS ÎÎÎ
Sharpton and the Progressive race baiters are trying to bring back the social chaos of 70s
Good post. I would’ve made similar comment had the article not indicated relative culpability. But, you are correct. The guy who pulled the trigger is truly the only one directly responsible for his actions.
Yes they are responsible, but they will never be held accountable. It’s, as always, someone else’s (constitutionalists) fault.
It would be easier for me to say “yes” and I would like to say “yes”. But ultimately it does indeed come down to personal responsibility. There are literally millions of people of all colors and political stripes who heard the same message from the race hustlers and have not travelled to NYC to gun down any cops. I will say, in a “but for” sense, were it not for the collective progressive raving, amplified by their communications arm (aka “the news media”), about the “racism” of the Brown and Garner cases, there’s absolutely no reason to believe that that particular Baltimore thug would travel to NY just to off a couple of cops.
Trick question. As those who say not all Muslims are terrorists, but a school shooting, or Police assasination, blankets ALL gun owners (and the NRA), as culpable.
It’s the ideology of Liberal Logic. Like Eric Holder will now crack down on the Black Gorilla Family, just like the New Black Panthers…..
Or not. But expecting the anti gun rhetoric to start anytime.
Yes. The race-mongers created a climate of hate and actively encouraged arson and looting in Ferguson, arson in Los Angeles and the double murder of cops who did absolutely nothing to bring violence upon themselves.
The left-wing political enablers actively encouraged the race-mongers. Al Sharpton, the race-monger in chief, is an adviser to the two biggest slugs who have ever served in any governmental executive capacity, namely Mayor Warren Wilhelm and President Barry Soetoro.
“Burn this bitch down” indeed.
The shooter bears sole criminal responsibility for his actions.
That said, many, many others are morally (and perhaps civilly) responsible for inciting such actions, and for creating a climate in which the evil that bears out such action is encouraged and facilitated. They have rhetorical and figurative, not literal, blood on their hands.
Well said. I would add that while race baiters obviously are not directly responsible, their reckless words and behaviors have created an atmosphere in which such attacks have a higher probability of occurrence.
Absolutely yes. This is no different than the incitng of riots. They created an anti-cop climate of hate by accusing cops of being racists. This POS who shot these cops felt he wa given as pass to do so by the leaders who told him he was a victim of white cop racism. The irony is these two Officers were even white.
Asian and Hispanic, actually.
You mean “white hispanic” and “white asian” according to the media, right?
Oops. Typo on my part. Were* should have been weren’t*.
Telling him that he is a victim of cop racism (which is almost certainly true, if he’s black) is not the same as giving him a pass to murder cops. That connection is something that exists solely in his brain, and something that he alone is responsible for.
Now if someone told him that he should go and kill cops because racism, then yeah, those people are responsible.
So basically every black person in America has personally been victimized by “cop racism”? You might want to re-think that part of your statement.
Statistically speaking, yes. “Victimized” here doesn’t necessarily mean tazered or shot, but e.g. being targeted by stop and frisk solely on the basis of their race.
Ismaaiyl Brinsley is responsible for his own actions. No one else is, and try to attach responsibility to others is a slippery slope.
That is not to condone those who call for violence against innocent people. It is possible to cross the line of free speech into the realm of inciting violence, and when that happens it should be dealt with.
yes and no. There’s an element of this that has nothing to do with race and is at its simplest level a breaking of trust with the public. It’s not this one incident, but a steady stream of police “self-investigating”, finding no wrong and committing abuse without any consequence. With enough of that, something like this is bound to happen. Race-baiters are culpable, yes, but to deny the police leadership in NYC and around the country any responsibility in this is incorrect.
+1
Yes, freedom of speech does not include the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre, Whipping up certain segments of the populace to believe they are helpless victims, then keep turning up the heat, then you are of the result.
freedom of speech does not include the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre
That canard has been debunked.
There are a lot of links but I’m being lazy today and will just drop this one: http://civil-liberties.yoexpert.com/civil-liberties-general/is-it-legal-to-shout-%22fire%22-in-a-crowded-theater-19421.html
>> the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre
If you value your rights and freedoms at all, never, ever use that example. If you look at its history, it was originally concocted by the Supreme Court to crack down on freedom of speech, permitting imprisonment of draft protesters during WW1. It was one of the first SCOTUS decisions that set the pattern of permitting the encroachment by the state on the most basic human rights, in the name of “greater good” and “national security”.
Absolutely.
The alleged killer, and the alleged killer only: he’s the only one responsible. PERIOD.
To blame otherwise, would be no different than the ‘brilliant logic’ the hoplophobes invoke.
While of course, the pen indeed is mightier than the sword, as a prevailing driving thought is always behind an individual’s actions. But thoughts, beliefs, are harmless unless acted upon.
Plenty daydream about the most vile disgusting evil shit, without ever acting on them. But once they do act on those said ‘driving’ thoughts, while it may have been their rationale, in the aggregate, it’s just an excuse to commit malum in se.
As such, while ALL humans are a complex interplay of innate and/or byproduct of their dominant, prevailing-‘norms’ of any given culture & zeitgeist vox populi, that said, if one is of weak mind, insecure, gullible, pliant, confirmation-bias indulgent, etc, and commits violence against another, while their insufficient mind is obviously a contributing factor, in the end, no one ‘forced’ that douche to murder anyone.
He himself only.
Frankly, anyone who blames anyone OTHER than the shooter to be culpable, is being no different than the delusional legion of hoplophobes who blame everything (the gun) and everyone (“those right wing radio/TV talkshow hosts, tea party racist bitter bible and gun clingers!!” – blah di blah fcukety blah) but the killer him/herself, as to why the ‘trigger pulled all by its lonesome.’
It’s childish, kneejerk, emotive, asinine ‘logic’ to assume anyone but the individual to be culpable of an action.
Which, frankly also makes the entire ‘legal’ premise behind “inciting riot” to be as empty as “gun violence,” “hate crimes,” “anti-cop violence” blah di fcukety blah. If “inciting violence” were so, then by virtue of the premise of the govt’s ‘logic,’ govt itself is then culpable of the same, as they created a political climate to incite riots.
There are certainly violence where tools used to commit them happened to be (a) gun(s). And, there are individuals to whom violence were committed against them, and the excuse given was race, gender, sexual proclivity/innate mutation, etc. etc. etc. And there are violence committed against an individual, where the excuse given was their ‘hatred’ for their profession, blah di fcukety blah.
But, in the end, in each of the above examples, it’s just one human violating another and/or their property. What tool used, and the motivating factor, while obviously important in terms of establishing why person X committed crime against Y, but nevertheless are immaterial in the aggregate and do not change the outcome of either an injured or dead body, or damaged or destroyed property.
At the end of the day, all it is, is about one human hurting/killing another.
But to design a legal framework around protecting ‘classes’ of people, and ‘punish’ more harshly when committed against the said fictitious legal class person X, Y, Z, is wholly Common Law-aberrant, not to mention “No Bills of Attainder” Clause violate of the Constitution.
So frankly, the SERVANTs who deluded they’re ‘deserved’ 100% lawfully fictitious legal alchemy known as “Qualified Immunity” can shove it up their asses, as equally as those who invoke “hate crime”/”hate speech”/”gun violence,” etc.
When you elevate intangible thought, and tangible object to “cause” a crime, you may want to see if you haven’t had critical thought lobotomy sometime in your past.
So no. Long rant short: the killer is the only guilty party. PERIOD.
Plus, for the politically partisan, it’s actually THE ‘Conservative’ libertarian and “L”-Libertarian principally consistent position to take. Everything else is emotive bullshit to rile up the imbeciles, and give the State more rationale to increase the policestate: just look at the POS mouthpiece for the NYPD union (whyTF do we allow public SERVANTS to have unions, when they exist solely at the discretion of the voters, is obnoxious to infinity) deludes they’re a “Wartime Police Department’” OMG! OMG!
Yeah, as if there aren’t enough “War on… ______________” that ALWAYS fail perennially by these statist fascist Quislings. xD
Seriously, just ‘two of their own’ gets killed, and the entire world is supposed to mourn for them, and stop what they’re doing, and dedicate worshipful altars. This is why every non-statist/collectivist and everyone not brainwashed abhor the State and all its gullible pliant, imperious agents.
Bitches, puhleeze. GTFOver yourselves. You’re no more or less important than anyone else.
Excellent post.
No, they are not responsible for that man’s actions (I won’t say his name). What they are responsible for is creating an environment of hate and racial segregation, as well as dividing Americans for essentially the almight dollar or vote.
Turn around is fair play. Until the Dems / Lefties / MFM admit that Sarah Palin and the Tea Party movement had nothing to do with the Gabby Giffords shooting, we need to tie Sharpton, De Blasio, Holder and Obama as tightly as possible to this assasination. And if you want to throw in the killer’s local spiritual leader, that’s ok too.
It’s not so complex. Evil is among us. The moral decay of society is a symptom of the underlying root cause of our country moving away from Christianity. I saw the Rodney King riots first hand along with several post Laker game riots. These riots and killing have nothing to do with retaliation but a simple excuse to act like rabid animals.
Agreed Shawn and good point. Without God and his commandments governing citizens personal lives, anything goes. Why? Because it is then up to the individuals subjective experience to decide what is right and wrong. Nietzsche stated this now over a hundred years ago. He stated that without God a new Ubermensch would arise who created their own reality. The founding fathers founded the nation on the belief that the people would continue to remain Christian and therefore moral. Without Christianity America is headed towards a dissolution of it’s power because nothing remains to unite us and no one remains who reminds us to treat others as we would like to be treated.
Might alone will determine what is right…. Machiavelli.
May God help us.
Amen.
Why bother with Constitution then, just use the Bible for that purpose?
Because in my opinion the best system of government ever devised to govern men, while not perfect is the republic envisioned by the founders 240 year ago. The bible should guide our hearts which enables the constitution to guide our relations.
My point is, if Christianity is the end-all, be-all, then why was Constitution even necessary? And why did it have things like freedom of religion written into it?
Freedom of religion for the founders meant one of the various Christian denominations. Washington himself said that our system of government would last as long as we remained Christian. If you are Christian you know that we believe that all of us have a self destructive streak or as it is known concupisence. Thus we need a government. Christ Himself said give to ceaser what is ceasers. The best government devised is the republic as practiced in this country for most of its history.
I am waiting to hear Sharpton address these murders of non-white officers.
He already has. He basically said they were reprehensible. Just like you might expect him to. Doesn’t lessen whatever culpability he may bear in inciting the whole thing in the first place.
Then how about you get off your lazy ass and go look it up? After all, Sharpton released a statement yesterday evening on this topic. Meanwhile, you’re sitting around a day later making snide innuendos.
From Sharpton’s statement:
“Any use of the names of Eric Garner and Michael Brown, in connection with any violence or killing of police, is reprehensible and against the pursuit of justice in both cases,” according to the statement. “We have stressed at every rally and march that anyone engaged in any violence is an enemy to the pursuit of justice for Eric Garner and Michael Brown…”
I guess it only makes sense. If you’re going to allow TTAG and others to tell you what to think on a given topic, then you may as well sit back and wait for them to tell you what events have transpired, too.
If Sarah Palin was responsible for Gabrielle Giffords being shot than De Blasio has to be responsible for this shooting. Turnabout is fair play after all.
Except we know Sarah Palin and her cross hairs were not responsible for Giffords’ shooting, just as De Blasio is not responsible for these officers’ shootings.
Well, there is a bit of a difference. Loughner’s own statements did nothing to implicate Sarah Palin or Tea Party conservatism in his motivations, but this guy explicitly stated he was responding to the “racist cops” drumbeat promulgated by Sharpton, De Blasio, et al.
That’s kind of my point. The left started this game so now they get to be on the other end of it. Although I’d say the assertion that Sarah Palin had anything to do with Gifford’s shooting is more ludicrous than the notion that De Blasio had a role in these officers’ deaths.
Don’t play the left’s game no matter what. It’s a BS game, and we shouldn’t stoop to it.
You have two choices, burn them at their own game or ignore them and let them impugn us with impunity.
Blame is not a zero sum game. Certainly the race baiters are responsible for this, but that does not take away from the personal responsibility of the individual who committed the act. We are not insurance adjusters and do not have to divide responsibility out of a 100% total.
TPTB have been cranking up the racial division for decades, they could ignite a race war anytime, all part of the plan to divide and conquer. BTW, puppets like Sharpton are just that, hand puppets playing their role in a much larger agenda.
Their hate speech encouraged violence, that is clear as day. Does that make them responsible? I blame Hitler and the hate he spewed for the Final Solution, which was the order to exterminate Jews, even though there is no evidence he gave the order. Do I personally blame Al Sharpton and these other hateful dweebs for the death of these two officers? Absolutely.
No, they aren’t. Once again you are missing the point, Robert. Day after day after day you run stories about police abusing peoples rights, and suddenly it’s “race baiters” that are the problem? Taking your cue from newsmax or fox news on this one, or are you just an unapologetic statist?
Of course they are, and Frito Lays is responsible for me being fat; Kalamazoo Brewery is responsible for my hangover; Mazda is responsible for my last speeding ticket. Grow up. Cliven Bundy was not responsible for Jared and Amanda Miller committing a double murder, and no one but this POS is responsible for the murder of the two police officers.
I look at this in the same light as someone who incites a riot. These folks knowingly created a situation where others were inspired to cause harm.
The chants at the Brown and Garner protests often included chants about causing harm to police specifically.
Race baiters create an environment, as does the media, where someone already inclined to do something tragically rash or premeditated will be more inclined to act on their perceived need for vindictive retribution. To a degree, instigators provide motivation, but that is all.
That is also no small thing.
Relatively speaking, the very real problem of police brutality and violation of individual rights by government has been partially hijacked by the race baiters. Law enforcement and government in general bears some relative culpability because if police brutality and violation of individual rights wasn’t such a big problem then the issue wouldn’t be exploitable. I blame government far more than I blame the race baiters.
You have it backwards. The anticops and anti militarization crowd grafted their cause on to the Ferguson race hustler-gangbanger coaltion. They thank you for your support.
At let’s make one thing clear. When you give a vague suggestion like “Who will rid me that meddlesome priest” and people under your influence go out and do it you bear the full responsibility for their actions.
Some of the first speaking out about the John Crawford murder were friends of mine. It didn’t begin focusing only on race. It was about Ohio being an open carry state and police brutality. Once it shifted over to being all about race with John Crawford’s mother calling for more gun control in Ohio and suing Walmart, I was out. Many of those I know who were active in Ferguson were there primarily about police brutality (in general) and the way that peaceful protesters & journalists were being treated. Now, some of my friends are watching while non-black people are being excluded from parts of certain protests because of the color of their skin (racism). There were two forces behind some of the protests; the race issue and police misconduct. The progressive race baiters are estranging the liberty minded folks who were protesting police misconduct.
I stand by what I wrote. Although, I really think only one person was responsible for the murder of the two officers but I was responding to relative culpability.
Well said. The built up rage is a systemic reaction to decades of legislators, and by proxy, police ratcheting up control over issues that they should have no business enforcing. Society has seen the crime rate drop steeply in the past 30ish years, but you wouldn’t know this by watching the “news”, speaking with officers on what equipment they “need”, or watching legislators spit out laws and ordinances at a record pace.
Aye. You get it.
A: Yes.
Yes, without a doubt.
Well, just as followers of Islam are following the dictates of their Koran in converting, subjugating or killing all infidels; one can say that the belief system promulgated by Muhammad “caused” the mass murder of various men,women and children over the millenia.
But that doesn’t mean that the person doing the beheading isn’t in the end responsible for his actions.
Even if they were being a “good practicing Muslim”.
The answer is unambiguously yes. The Race hustlers and their faux Libertarian allies have whipped up the mob into a frenzy. They loot, burn and yes kill all in support of a gangbanger thug who has been elevated to the status of hero and martyr.
Just to remind everyone what the Brown-Wilson confrontation was all about I give you this picture:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-photos-released-of-suspect-michael-brown-robbing-store-before-shooting/
I don’t believe anyone but the perp can be considered responsible for the perp’s actions. Free will, right?
It remains true that the perp was acting on the basis of outright lies perpetuated by the MSM, the race baiters, and various and sundry assorted leftists; to wit that Brown was shot down even though he posed no threat. (I don’t know much about the other case.) The same sort of lies told about Zimmerman/Martin. The perception exists that some totally innocent individual was gunned down in cold blood by a cop (or a neighborhood watch dude), and even though the preponderance of evidence shows this wasn’t true, this information is being deliberately withheld by the race pimps. I can’t hold them responsible for what the perp did here, but I can’t for the life of me imagine how they can look at themselves in the mirror.
They are not legally responsible for the murders.
They are morally responsible for pushing the strife that made this violence completely predictable.
Technically, Sharpton and the execs at MSNBC who gave him a platform, and Holder/Obama who coordinated and gave him credibility at Ferguson are not responsible for pulling the trigger. But thats not the point. They know they wield influence, and power and payola come from turning on the violence, while they piously call for peace later.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/04/27/sharpton-brawley-crown-heights-hartsock/
To claim otherwise is to believe that regulating some technical feature of a firearm, is going to deter criminals from using it. Its a lie wrapped in virtueous self-aggrandizement, that is typical narcissist sociopathic behaviour.
What is more interesting, RF, is not asking the obvious, but watching the Talking Points Memos coming out of the White House of the “first post-racial POTUS” and the desperate efforts of StateRunMedia™ enablers to propagate the meme.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/graham-blame-shooter-nyc-officers
Using media hungry glory-hound Lindsey Graham to dull the knife fight among NY Dems just shows how desperate they are, to find someone, anyone, to point the finger away from the race-baiting community organizer in chief and his proud to be an activist AG…
Miss Lindsay at his typical mushmouthed best.
Wasn’t there a higher court case being heard soon that was dealing with what constitutes free speech/threatening speech on social media? I wonder how much of an influence the way social media was used to telegraph these murders is going to have on the case.
Well, is someone who incites to riot responsible for the outcome? Yes. But in this case, the major sin is that of omission.
The race hustlers are free to think what they want about individual cops, but they have been afield as portraying ALL cops as killers of black folks. Oppressors. Jackboots. In short, they refuse to suppress the ‘kill whitey’ meme, and especially the kill a cop for justice line of thinking.
This is understandable from Sharpton, a faux man of the cloth, ordained as a child after zero seminary education. More difficult to understand from Jesse Jackson.
It’s interesting that whenever they see a police uniform, they think a white man is in it. And ironically, the two NYPD officers were Asian and Hispanic.
Make no mistake, this is not anti cop rhetoric, it’s anti white hate speech, thinly veiled. A racist behind every badge.
We had a similar and worse incident here in WA, where a black career criminal who hated cops, waled into a coffee shop, murdered FOUR Lakewood officers, fled, gut shot, only to be taken down by an officer in another jurisdiction, days later. This guy had been paroled by the Governor Mike Huckabee.
Later, a Black, cop hating guy shot two Seattle officers in their car, and went on a bombing spree. One officer survived. The suspect, Monfort, was shot and captured. Now he is in process of making a mockery of the legal system, and even if sentenced to death, our lefty Governor Inslee has imposed a moratorium on the death penalty, on the premise it’s racially unfair.
Then you have the silly white for trying to be trendy. This is for you protestors out there:
Look, I’m not in favor of militarized police departments BUT…
If you are going to force me to take sides, I’m going to side with the cops, every time. It’s a no-brainer, and all you anti cop protesters out there whining and moaning can just go to hell. Where were you when O.J. Simpson walked? The “system” worked just fine for you then right?
As always, I deal with individuals, not whole groups as general rule. But you anti cop protestors on the whole don’t even really care. You are just trying to be trendy, hip, and pointlessly rebellious. For your own jolly good time and no other reason.
That’s right, deep down, you could really give a shit. You just like causing trouble.
You faux concern is going to evaporate pretty soon, and your simple minds will return to being glued to your smartphones, sports, video games, and TV’s.
Because you are so shallow, so stupid, and so unaware, that you cannot see the giant train-wreck that is about to come down on the whole nation.
+1 Chip…the scum shot his ex-girlfriend 1st. NOTHING TO DO with NYC cops.
You know if and I do mean if, NEW YORK was a part of the United States instead of Canada (like it wants to be) I’d have more concern. Problem is the police there do not protect but they do serbe the power elite.
Would this angry black loser thug have traveled from Baltimore to New York to assassinate police officers if not for the race baiting and race hustling from high profile radical left leaders like DeBlasio who created an inviting and welcome environment in NYC for the black victim mentality crusade that openly chanted for dead cops? Hell no!
The lies from DeBlasio, Shartpon, Holder, and Obama have reinforced the fallacy there is an epidemic of black deaths in America at the hands of police officers while ignoring and denying the truth that the statistically overwhelming threat of death by homicide for a black male is another black male.
The cowardly piece of $#it who murdered NYPD Officers Liu and Ramos was emboldened and enabled by the words and actions of DeBlasio and his not so latent anti law enforcement convictions.
Exactly. Without the myth they’ve been pushing, the Gentle Giant would’ve been a local crime story, just as Trayvon should’ve been. They’re deliberately creating unrest for political reasons, and people are getting killed for it, not to mention the cost of all the property damage and PD/FD overtime.
Sort of. Its yin and yang. People refuse to take responsibility for their safety. They fall for the “protect and serve.” Inevitably, ceding power to police has consequences. Government employees have been able to kill you with impunity since recorded history, and find no wrong after investigation. So here comes the opportunistic race baiters, to encourage the resulting chaos they feed off of to line their pockets. If the police, or Sharpton said take personal responsibility, that would kind of end their gig.
Mostly everyone is wrong here. Not until a city is in real ruins like Detroit, when there is no more money to feed the cycle, do you see police chiefs come out pro-self-defense. He cannot afford not to be. Nor can the residents.
The real answer- shut up and carry. Openly. Ignore the power structure and protect yourself.
Perfect example that when the rabid sovereign citizen fringe (yin) keeps circling to the far right while the radical black liberation fringe (yang) keeps circling to the far left, the two meet and share a common idiocy in their demented hatred of law enforcement which compels them to spew incredibly lame anarchist rhetoric such as, “Government employees have been able to kill you with impunity”.
While I’m not a lawyer, the doctrine of free speech in the US does not include protection for “fighting words” and “true threats.”
Exhortations to “kill XYZ” where XYZ is some class/cohort of people aren’t protected. Saying “F… the police” is protected speech, but advocating violence explicitly and unconditionally against a cohort of people is not protected speech, much as burning crosses on a black man’s lawn isn’t protected speech or acts.
The seminal SCOTUS decision in this matter is Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, decided in 1942. This decision cast a fairly wide net against freedom of speech, but subsequent decisions limited the scope to exclude things like vulgarity, obscenity, etc, eg “F… the draft” and so on.
The seminal SCOTUS decision in this case is Brandenburg v. Ohio, which explicitly protected KKK speech that involved calls for “revengeance against niggers and Jews” as constitutionally protected free speech. So yes, you can say “kill X”, and it would be free speech unless the lawless action carried out by someone else and stemming from your words was imminent.
In Brandenburg, the SCOTUS created a three prong test for prohibited speech:
a) the speech must expressly advocate violence – without a condition. In Brandenburg’s case, his advocacy was conditional of violence against the government IF they continued to suppress the white race;
b) advocate immediate violence and
c) relate to violence likely to occur.
In this case, there were explicit calls to kill cops at several locations, now in response to recent grand jury findings, and these calls happened in the midst of huge demonstrations, several of which included arson, looting and assault against police officers.
To my non-lawyer eyes, the recent threats against police would appear to meet all three prongs of the Brandenburg tests.
Yes, because the facts of the Garner and especially the Brown incident were twisted.
And that’s going to be a crux of a future case: whether deliberate and persistent selective reporting and creation of widespread belief of an action that, if true, would cause public outrage, is protected under the First Amendment.
A few of you think the baiters are responsible?
So does that mean that someone could convince you to commit murder of whites, blacks, reds, browns, yellows, immigrants, leftists, commies, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. or people who like Disney World?
If not what makes you different?
No, because I’m not as gullible as most of the inner-city black community is.
Low income whites have suffered economically since this country was founded. They were serfs in Europe and still are. Occasionally some one speaks up for their rights as inCoal country WVA. Girls drop out of school to work low wages at the textile plants in PA.
They were told and believe that the Jewish banker was taking their farms. They are told to hate the Mexican because the Mexican took their auto assembly job. Did you see Mexicans sneak up to Detroit at night and move a GM plant to Mexico?
Nope. A very rich white guy signed the papers and with no consideration for “his” people moved the assembly to Mexico. His profits increased as he was not paying Union wages or benefits.
You know why whites don’t speak up? They believe, “you don’t criticize the rich because you may be rich one day.”
Don’t believe me. Check it out. You may be suburban and don’t have any po’ white folk in your family or know or associate with any. In major cities the poor white neighborhood and the poor black neighborhood are identical. They’ve been wasted by industry moving away. Their schools are crap and neither group is sending many children to the middle class. Same crime, drug and alcohol abuse, poor diet, poor English skills. Single parent hood, unwed mothers.
There are plenty of news outlets and personalities preaching that there is something special about the brown peoples. Funny thing is those poor whites are the ones who are duped. They think they have a seat at the table because they are white. How’s that worked out in the last 300 years?
In a word, no. The person ultimately responsible is the individual(s) who committed the crime. Just sating that you wanted someone dead, doesn’t make you a conspirator.
If that were the case, we had better start praying for the safety of our “favorite” anti-gun legislators, lest we be accomplices in their unforeseen demise.
We will never know if the killer would have done this one way or the other. No one can deny that fostering an environment where people believe it is acceptable to demand en mass that harm of any sort come to any one person or type of persons (regardless of the association or categorization) without any significant social repercussion is beneficial to anyone’s mentality.
This man is wholly responsible for his actions, yes, but there is a good chance he would not have carried out those actions if the mobs didn’t so vehemently fan the flames. Our society greatly depends on external influence in our lives so that we may justify the actions we take, that is what happened here.
I think this guy believed he had killed his girlfriend, was a multi-level LOSER, and used the words and exhortations to violence by those he regarded as “Leaders” in the Community as a rationale for senseless violence, then realized he had totally F’d Up and killed himself. Both parties are responsible and accountable for this terrible act of cold-blooded murder. Those “Leaders” may not be held “Legally” accountable, but they are accountable as surely as if they had pulled the trigger themselves. What is Justice is Legal, but it does not follow that what is Legal is Justice.
“Are Race Baiters Responsible for NYPD Assassin?” Yes. Next dumb question, please.
Those in charge who ignored history are at fault. This killing was unjustified but not surprising. A few innocents were killed by cops along with a few guilty, but the governments failure to actually punish bad cops lead to this. One only had to study the rioting during the 80’s and 90’s against police brutality to see this crap storm coming.
How is this any different than the murder of Mr. Frank in NC about 100 yrs ago? He was accused of murdering a young lady named Mary Phelan in his pencil factory. Frank was a Jew and was railroaded in the original trial. The Governor stepped in and reviewed all evidence and testimony including that of the black janitor who claimed he saw Frank disposing of the body. In fact years later he ADMITTED that HE had killed her and used the town’s anti-Semitic leanings to let somebody else hang for it.
The Governor was having such success at reversing the decision that the DA (who was running for Gov.) started tying Frank to Wall St. and used every class and anti-religious bigoted remark he could to whip up the mob. While awaiting the Governor’s decision Frank was dragged from jail with no resistance from the Sheriff and lynched. The DA rode his corpse to the State House as I recall.
Repetitive hateful speech DOES get folks killed. Just look at the Red Revolutions and NAZI Germany for examples.
Ray from Bloombergia
Kind of selective in your historical examples. Smells like propaganda.
Mao did give them a run for our money, and Pol Pot was no slouch!
Sharpton and his cronies, did they create a climate of hate? I think this video speaks for itself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8
As for de Blasio, I don’t blame him as much. From what I can tell, he was trying ease tensions and walk a line down the middle of the two groups with his comments about attacks on officers during the protests last weekend. In my eyes, him getting blamed is just the PBA throwing a fit like a spoiled child.
The total focus on police brutality by demonstrators and mobs, by the stepfather of the Ferguson victim, the Mayor of New York City, and our sad black President makes them all responsible for the senseless murders of two police officers.
Why aren’t we discussing a black culture that encourages and even promotes civil disobedience and the disrespect and resistance to law enforcement? Had the two very large young black men simply obeyed directions from police officers rather than fighting with them, they would both still be alive today. Black pride is evolving into reverse racism and endangering years of progress in US race relations.
Please! The killer was a loser and a lunatic who didn’t give a damn about Eric Garner or Ferguson until AFTER he shot his girlfriend that morning in Baltimore. Knowing he was going down on his busride up, he latched onto the nearest cause. Again, he had a certifiable mental history.
Once we go open up the discourse to “root causes of violence” or even Robert’s sorta weasel-y “relative” causes (what? TTAG is into RELATIVISM now?) then its the slippery slope to defining those causes as poverty, racism, injustice, and the lack of parental love. DON’T GO THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! If you’re going to assert individual responsibility then BE RESPONSIBLE and stick to it.
Here’s the evidence of cops serving themselves while giving the collective finger to an elected mayor. F them.
Are they responsible for the deaths? No. Are they responsible for the lies and the further incitement of the “peaceful protestors”? Yes. Will they be held as such? No.
sigh. again, YOU are baiting. you first say, “its the shooters responsibility once the trigger is pulled” then you go on to ask do you think they created the environment. so you are intentionally having people comment on a scenario you KNOW is dubious.
Really? “dubious”? The Racebaiting Poverty Pimps have been calling for violence and retaliation against “whites” since the 1960s and ’50s. Where is the “dubious” part?
Perhaps he was influenced by the “overthrow the tyrannical government with a gun” rhetoric.
Of course both the race baiter argument (cops were asian and hispanic) and tyrannical government argument had zero to do with this. People are responsible for there own actions. For this blog or anyone on it to suggest otherwise gives license for the government to change the constitution take away all arms. Lets be better.
He expressed his motive prior to the shooting: “I’m going to put wings on pigs today. They took 1 of ours, let’s take two of theirs. #RIPMichaelBrown #RIPErivGardner [sic]”.
That’s pretty explicit, no?
Yes it is explicit. But, the officers were only half of his total for shootings that day. Prior to that in the confrontation with his girlfriend in Baltimore he put a gun to his head own head. He didn’t end up killing himself (at that time), but he did end up shooting her. After that he called her mother and apologized for shooting her. HE’S CRAZY!! He was going to commit violence that day, in fact he did commit violence that day. Shooting his girlfriend, shooting the police, shooting himself were all the acts of a person over the edge. The dozens of other arrests prior to this were only a sign. Can’t blame any of this on (fill in the blank of anyone who wasn’t happy that the police didn’t get charged). This was the violent culmination of a life that was set on this path years ago.
+1
Yes, I agree that violent criminals are going to commit violent crime. (As I’ve mentioned elsewhere: the solution to violent crime is not gun control, but rather violent criminal control.
But I don’t think he was insane. Driven to violence and essentially suicide-by-cop; but not insane.
Hey Chip,
Thanks for your input to the conversation. Whether he was certifiably insane or not is probably less important than him being identified as a problem. Further reporting confirms that his own mother was afraid of him, HIS MOTHER!!! He was also estranged from other members of his family, and had no address that can be found. Oh and by the way he tried to commit suicide by hanging himself earlier in the year.
The race baiters and liberals at least did pour gas on the fire.
What a sick joke this place is. Yeah, blame people who’re protesting for their lives and the lives of people White cops have found totally disposable. Yeah just blame people who refuse to “just let it go” and are standing up for their rights, lives, and civil liberties. Nothing like a bunch of White bigots telling everybody else what racism is. Whether it’s just trying to go home with a pack of skittles and ice tea or being a 12 year old kid playing with a toy gun in the park, if you’re Black, your death is always your own fault, and the bigotry, incompetence, and lack of proper training of trigger happy racist police officers had nothing to do with it. But let’s give the NRA a break all they’ve done is enable ANYBODY no matter how mentally disturbed and challenged or criminal to have unabated access to guns.
Tamir SHOULD be alive. There is no doubt except among the harcore “cops never wrong” wing. Brown is dead and SHOULD be dead. He tried to steal Wilson’s gun and KILL him with it. EVERY training officer in the world tells rookies that if they get your gun the FIRST thing they’ll do is shoot YOU with it and then try to rob some place. Brown was a WORTHLESS POS and nothing more.
Garner SHOULD be alive but Emperor Mike of Bloombergia decreed from his royal perch many years ago that he was going to make NYC tobacco free. He got the city council to approve ever harsher taxes on packs and cartons until they CREATED the underground market for “loosies” by their own stupidity. Then, to make it worse, they made street cops the tax enforcers thus guaranteeing such an outcome. There was NO choke hold. The forensics showeed NO damage to the wind pipe and no damage to any neck bones or ligaments. They were TRYING a “carotid hold” to make him pass out but the 300 pound water buffalo he was he kept flinging cops like rag dolls. They should have employed the swarm technique and had two cops on each limb until they could get cuffs on Garner who had VERY bad asthma and sleep apnea which the cops had NO way of knowing.
Posting from the corner of Suck It Up And Move On in beautiful Bloombergia
Ray
NRA Life
Perhaps they should have paid attention when the guy said things like, “I can’t breathe”?
Or, perhaps, they should not kill people over a few pennies tax on a drug? Oh, yea, right. Police kill people, and children, and animals over untaxed drugs every day. Never mind.
Perhaps they shouldn’t do both.
(And perhaps lawmakers shouldn’t write dumb laws that police gets to enforce.)
“But let’s give the NRA a break all they’ve done is enable ANYBODY no matter how mentally disturbed and challenged or criminal to have unabated access to guns.” Really, sh*t spewing liar?!?! How about you PROVE that, c*nt?
The NRA was founded by ABOLITIONIST Union officers. They did so for two reasons. First it is little mentioned but even though the South lost they killed northern soldiers at a rate of 4 to 1 which is why Grant had to drag Irish immigrants off the docks and get them to enlist He was trying to overstuff the meat grinder till it stopped.
Secondly the Black Codes were written by DEMOCRATS intent on keeping de facto slavery alive even beyond Reconstruction which was really DE-construction waged by carpet baggers and Scallawags. The new NRA member began to ship older guns either simple breech loaders like the trap door Springfield carbines or older Spencers to the newly freed blacks to enable them to defend against the Democrat night riders aka the Democrats aka the Klan.
Are you responding to me, or riceroni? And yes, I am familiar with the history of the NRA, two of my grandfathers were members in the first decade of its existence.
Sorry for not being clear. I was responding to the San Franciso Tweet.
Ray
No need to be sorry, threads get a bit jumbled after second response to one comment. And got to amend, was two greatgrandfathers joined NRA early. And love the “San Franciso Tweet”, have to use it if riceroni comes back!
Comments are closed.