“The leader of the Baltimore Police Department’s corrupt Gun Trace Task Force pleaded guilty to racketeering and other charges Friday morning, admitting to a wide range of new crimes, including dirt bike thefts and re-selling stolen prescription drugs looted during the 2015 riots,” baltimoresun.com reports. (Video below.) I know that most cops are straight arrows. But I operate under the philosophy . . .
that there’s no sense trusting people you don’t know — until and unless they prove themselves trustworthy. Which goes double for people in authority. People who can make your life miserable, one way or another. Like . . . police.
Don’t get me wrong: I admire and appreciate the hard work police perform on the public’s behalf. I am unfailingly polite to the officers I encounter. But I don’t consider a police officer my friends from the git-go.
Do you — a gun owner– trust the police? If so, how much?
But everyone knows all cops are heroes…
I trust them to shoot my dog.
Never call the cops unless you want something shot.
That’s the only hammer in their toolkit.
Never, ever, call them if you have a loved one with mental issues….unlesss of coarse you want your loved one shot.
Nope, I don’t trust anyone I don’t know. Trust is earned, not a spur of the moment thing.
The “thin blue line” protects the bad cops. My relatives who are cops cannot understand my dislike for many “practices” that they consider “normal”. Attempts to engage them in Constitutional principles are met with deaf ears. THE LAW IS WHATEVER THEY SAY THE LAW IS.
Their unwavering allegiance to those (bad) cops who exhibit “abnormal” life-threatening behavior (to us mundanes) and their “making excuses” for such aberrant behavior is sickening.
You see, every police officers’ ultimate goal is to make it to retirement with as little friction as possible. In many departments, it is possible to retire after 30 years AND to start collecting Social Security at age 55–NOT 66 like the rest of us. In addition, disability claims (too many career lifetime donuts) quite often enable them to live a much more comfortable life than most of us taxpayers who provide these “centurions” with their comfortable lifestyle.
Police work is not inherently dangerous IF they follow Constitutional principles.
The militarization of police forces is another big problem. Police departments routinely recruit former military and do very little to change the “us vs. them” mindset that is a staple of military (combat) service.
In fact, most department actually admire their “special” status and encourage such behavior with “no-knock” midnight SWAT raids and other unconstitutional behavior.
A small point (but valid, nevertheless) is that EVEN THE NAZIS KNOCKED ON THE DOOR BEFORE GAINING ENTRY.
Yeah, no. I agree on most parts, but the “militarization of police,” is not much of an issue. ROEs make it so enlisted service members have significantly more restraint when it comes to use of force than the average idiot with a badge. Hell, not too long ago there was a story of the former Marine (yes, former, shut up,) who became a cop and was fired for NOT shooting a suspect.
Agreed. If police were truly “militarizing” then they’d have MORE restraint and suffer UCMJ action when making an unjustified killing.
“Once a Marine Always a Marine” holds true with us. However the term Former Marine is correct. Its Ex-Marine we have a problem with.
If a former Marine is convicted of a heinous crime, is his name wiped from the rolls a la 6th Mobile Infantry Division?
I prefer the term “Marine Veteran.”
It’s accurate and doesn’t cause entanglements with people emotionally attached to the concept of Marine-ness.
Absolutely agree with most of your statement. I have, or had relatives and or friends of the family involved in the Law Enforcement community…And these LE folks don’t trust their own! And quietly state the obvious like you did…
“Ban ALL Police Unions ! In every format nationwide! Now that’s a start! Because absolute power corrupts absolutely!”
I understand where you’re coming from with the militarization angle, but it’s a bit disingenuous. I had more odds of the hammer coming down on me for a bad shoot in the service than I do for one now as a LEO.
I had UCMJ and battalion level command willing to use it. ROE in Afghanland and Iraqistan is more restrictive than on America’s streets, and that’s not a joke. Hell you have to actually take fire or have someone point a weapon at you there, here its “reaching” which can be as vague as coving a sneeze. I can appreciate that just like everyone else walking around, cops aren’t generally bad people, but there is too much “ass covering” and omerta in general. The mentality that they’re a higher class of citizen needs to go. When I walk around in a badge and uniform I realize that it’s a responsibility, not a status booster for my ego. Too many think the latter way. Also, cops need some kind of UCMJ equivalent; the keeping the peace should come with more responsibilities, not less. I’ll jump off the soap box now.
Part of the problem is the militarization and the Israeli training that today’s American cops receive. We are all Palestinians, now…
Police officers are the only group that can LIE to elicit false confessions, utilizing “bad cop good cop” routines, badgering suspects, making them uncomfortable for long periods of time, getting them to admit to falsehoods, just to get away from the incessant questioning.
Police officers are the only group that can murder someone by falsely claiming that “they feared for their lives”, have 48 to 72 hours to “get their stories straight”, and have a union lawyer and compliant prosecutor-steered “grand jury” absolve them of responsibility.
Police demand immediate compliance (Israeli-style)–with two or three cops issuing and yelling out conflicting commands, it is easy to see how a person under police control could lose his life for merely attempting to follow conflicting directions.
Most people are unaware that police have NO “rules of engagement” and can pretty much, do whatever they want, and DO get out of questionable shootings by uttering the “magic words”–“I feared for my life”.
The solutions are to abolish their official “immunity”, get rid of police unions, take any awards for police misconduct out of their pension funds–not from insurance or the taxpayers, require them to purchase an insurance company bond at their own expense–no bond=no job, and establish a database of former cops who should NEVER be allowed to hold another police job. Dash and body cams that cannot be disabled or turned off should be a part of the deal.
“We are all Palestinians, now…”
WTF??? Have regular citizens declared an intifada? Did I miss the email? Do regular citizens routinely go up to cops and spit at them or throw rocks at them? Where do _you_ live?
“Police demand immediate compliance (Israeli-style)–with two or three cops issuing and yelling out conflicting commands,”
The immediate compliance is much less of an issue than conflicting commands. Duh.
Like being told by different officers to:
“Get out of the car! Get out of the car! Get out of the car! Get out of the car!”
“Keep you hands where I can see them! Keep you hands where I can see them! Keep you hands where I can see them! Keep you hands where I can see them! Keep you hands where I can see them! ”
But to get out of the car the person needed to release their seat belt, and to release the seat belt the person had to put one hand to the release catch beside the centre console.
Any attempt at movement resulted in the above commands. Any attempt to ask to move to release the seat belt was met with:
“Shutup! Shutup! Shutup! Shutup! Shutup! Shutup! ”
And that’s how people get killed by police for not following commands.When one cop shoots, all cops shoot.
Freeze! Get on the ground! Don’t move! Do it now!
Why didn’t he just submit and comply…? (shrugs)
YOU can be a Palestinian all you want. I’m an American and will continue to act as one.
“Palestinian” is a figure of speech, in this case…
Does anyone “reading comprehend” anymore? Seems like many think the commenter was saying we are now like Palestinian terrorists trying to fight the Israelis. Not at all.
It was a reference to the style of training police receive…in other words, the US general population is viewed by the police how the Israeli forces view Palestinians…as probable enemy combatants.
Ahhhh….it’s the Jews fault. Not.
The Israeli / Paleolithic problem can be summed up in one short sentence….One side wants the other dead.
As someone who encounters law enforcement as little as possible but who is also in the process of joining federal police, my issue is and always has been that police meet most if not all of the same qualifications of gangs. The only differences are operating under color of law and *hopefully* not operating criminal
Enterprises themselves. That alone is enough for a rational person to be cautious at all times around them.
Meh. Any random group of people could fit in with the vague definition of a gang.
Oh, and how:
For invoking The Python…
You Win !!!
I don’t trust people I don;t know and I don’t trust anyone claiming a position of authority whether I know them or not.
I used to trust peace officers, but they are now an endangered species.
I do not trust enforcers because they do not hesitate to enforce bad laws.
Exactly. Police are nothing more than the enforcement arm of an out of control government.
I’m going to have to remember that description — they’re not “law enforcement”, they’re just enforcers.
I think the last of the cops here who trained as a “peace officer” retired last year. Now, they’re just thugs.
Generally yes. But as the son of a career deputy even he knows that there are plenty of bad apples. He always told me to keep my mouth shut, Be polite and follow orders even if they are wrong because neither or father or a lawyer can help me if I’m dead.
Most officers I know are great men. Few are not and shouldn’t wear the badge at all but alas it is out of my (our) control.
The more audio and video you can get in every encounter the better you will be
I know quite a few ex officers, who are fine, as in meh, tend to humble brag about stuff that really should impress no one, “I was a police officer during 9/11” Dude, you were writing speeding tickets in Cincinnati when 9/11 happened. I was in an airport, so what, who cares, most Americans were somewhere I”d bet.
I went to high school with 2 guys that became sheriff’s deputies then county SWAT, and there were not 2 people who would have been worse choices, total chip on their shoulder wannabe bullies, i.e. they’d get their asses kicked by just about anyone of they acted that way without a badge, tiny mouthy guys. Guys that lots of people knew, but who no one would actually claim as a friend. One’s in jail now for murdering his wife when she threatened to leave him.
I just make sure to remind them that my taxes pay their salary. From my most recent encounter, the dental implants are almost healed.
Some of them. Police are human.
I do not bestow superhuman characteristics to law enforcement.
Police who abuse their station can do much more damage than the average person.
Law enforcement needs to do better at rooting-out corruption in its ranks.
The tendency to cover-up bad seed does much to exacerbate the police/public divide.
I trust the police until they cross the constitutional divide in order to “keep people safe”.
Unfortunately, the fascist-socialist apporach is now “if you have done nothing wrong, why do care if we detain/harass/search you unconstitutionally?”.
NO! “……Any thing you say will be used against you in the court of law” and………..
The Supreme Court ruled that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm; Even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.
The most important way to deal with a police traffic stop is to be as polite as possible and make the stop as short as possible. That being said, it is a good idea to record the traffic stop without letting the officer know–even in states where it is illegal to record without both parties’ knowledge. This is for YOUR protection–
Generally speaking, we have a First Amendment Right to record the official acts of public officials in any manner we choose, regardless of what any statute might say to the contrary.
But the courts which always recognized that absolute right in the past are starting to realize that allowing us that much power is starting to be a problem for the protected class of badge toting felons…and most judges don’t like it when the serfs rise up and expose the criminals hiding among the Exalted Ones.
Whether recording is legal or illegal, doesn’t matter. It should be done. The court of public opinion (for better or for worse) is the most powerful court in the land right now. Thanks to mass communication you can “win” that battle and back the liars in to a corner. A lot of police agencies wear body camers for this reason (whether those liars are cops, suspects, or citizens), so why would you not record?…. and don’t say “because the law says I can’t.” Stand up and be a damn citizen!
On a separate note, it was law enforcement and prosecutors who pinched these dirty cops. Not indignation or bigoted hatred of “All police who (fill in the blank)”.
“cops is cops.”
why enter this profession? it runs in the family, control issues or altruism. greed.
i don’t trust professions. who’s in there?
Here are changes that can help reduce police-induced violence:
1. Get rid of police unions. Police unions (fraternities) protect the guilty, and are responsible for the massive whitewashing of questionable police behavior that is presently being committed.
2. Eliminate both “absolute” and “qualified” immunity for all public officials. This includes, prosecutors and judges, police and firefighters, code enforcement and child protective services officials, and others who deal with the citizenry. The threat of being sued personally would encourage them to behave themselves. Require police officers to be “bonded” by an insurance company, with their own funds. No bond= no job. You can bet that insurance companies would be more diligent in weeding out the “bad apples” than our present system…
3. Any public funds disbursed to citizens as a result of police misconduct should come out of police pension funds–NOT from the taxpayers.
4. Regular drug-testing of police officers as well as incident-based drug testing should take place whenever an officer is involved in a violent situation with a citizen–no exceptions.
5. Testing for steroid use should be a part of the drug testing program. You know damn well, many police officers “bulk up” with the “help” of steroids. Steroids also affect users mentally as well, making them more aggressive. The potential for abuse of citizens increases greatly with steroid use.
6. Internal affairs should only be used for disagreements between individual officers–NOT for investigations involving citizen abuse. State-level investigations should be mandatory for all suspected abuses involving citizens.
7. Prosecutors should be charged with malfeasance IF any evidence implicating police officer misconduct is not presented to the grand jury.
8. A national or state-by-state database of abusive individuals who should NEVER be allowed to perform police work should be established–a “blacklist” of abusive (former) police officers. As it stands now an abusive police officer can get a job with another department, continuing the abusive behavior.
9. Most people are unaware that police have special “rules” that prohibit them from being questioned from 48 to 72 hours. This allows them to “get their stories straight” and makes it easier to “cover up” bad police behavior. Police must be subject to the same laws as civilians.
10. All police should be required to wear bodycams and utilize dashcams that cannot be turned off. Any police officers who causes a dash or body cam to be turned off should be summarily fired–no excuses. Today’s body and dash cams are reliable enough to withstand harsh treatment. Body and dashcam footage should be uploaded to a public channel “on the cloud” for public perusal.
11. All interrogations must be video and audio recorded. Police should be prohibited from lying or fabricating stories in order to get suspects to confess. False confessions ARE a problem in many departments. Unknown to most people, police can lie with impunity while civilians can be charged with lying to police…fair? I think not…
12. Any legislation passed that restricts the rights of ordinary citizens, such as firearms magazine capacity limits, types of weapons allowed, or restrictive concealed-carry laws should apply equally to police. No special exemptions to be given to police. Laws must be equally applied.
13 “Asset forfeiture” is a form of “legalized robbery under color of law” and must be abolished. We must return to Constitutional principles when it comes to “crimefighting”. The so-called “war on drugs” is actually a “war on the citizenry” and has had an extremely corrosive effect on the Constitutional principles that our country is (supposed to be) founded on.
14. “No-knock” raids must be abolished as they put both police and (especially citizens) in harms way. Even the Nazis “knocked on the door” before gaining entry.
15. SWAT teams must be reigned in on their “dynamic entry techniques”. Utilizing SWAT teams for routine situations is dangerous to both police and citizens. Smashing everything in sight “just because they can”, blaming it on an “adrenaline rush” must end. There is NEVER a reason for destroying property.
16. The “21 foot rule” must be modified or abolished. American police training assumes that ANYONE that gets within 21 feet of a police officer and is deemed a threat, even a non-life-threatening situation is “fair game” for the use of lethal force. Persons with rakes, sticks, knives, or even their fists have been executed, even when non-lethal means would have been more appropriate. Police hide behind the “21 foot rule” in order to justify questionable police shootings. Their “excuse”, when brought before a prosecutor or grand jury is “that is the way they are trained”. THAT has to change. Police have a greater responsibility NOT to use deadly force against those that they could easily subdue by other means.
17. Clear and concise “rules of engagement” must be established for ALL American law enforcement personnel. Any deviation from these rules must be severely punished. It is interesting to note that American military veterans in combat zones operate under more restrictive “rules of engagement” than American “law enforcement”. In fact, American “law enforcement” operates under NO “rules of engagement”. They have total “carte blanche” to destroy whoever they want. THAT has to change…
Police work is not inherently dangerous…there are many other professions that are much more dangerous.
A little “Andy Taylor” could go a long way in allaying fears that citizens have of police.
That being said, I have no problem with the majority of police officers who do their job in a fair, conscientious manner…however, it is time to call to task those police officers who only “protect and serve” themselves.
4. Regular drug-testing of police officers as well as incident-based drug testing should take place whenever an officer is involved in a violent situation with a citizen–no exceptions.
13 “Asset forfeiture” is a form of “legalized robbery under color of law” and must be abolished. We must return to Constitutional principles when it comes to “crimefighting”. The so-called “war on drugs” is actually a “war on the citizenry” and has had an extremely corrosive effect on the Constitutional principles that our country is (supposed to be) founded on.
4: If truck drivers, pilots, and every single member of the military is subject to routine random testing, why not cops, other than the fact that their unions won’t sign any contract which fails to protect the guilty?
13: Civil Asset Forfeiture abuses are so widespread that I can think of only two ways to fix it:
A: Since police and prosecutors prove on a daily basis that they cannot be trusted with this power, remove it, entirely. Criminal asset forfeiture after conviction is fine. Civil forfeiture from innocents with absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing is unacceptable and must be banned in its entirety.
B: If they really want to keep civil forfeiture, they can keep it under this condition:
If they preemptively steal somebody’s assets with absolutely no evidence that the person they stole from committed any crime and force him to prove his innocence to regain them, then upon finally regaining the right to his assets in court, the victim may preemptively take the lives of the thieves. If the dead thieves want their lives back, they may petition the court for a hearing in which they are presumed guilty. And no, I’m not joking. My proposal is far more reasonable than the laws currently on the books.
Someone has a whole lot of (completely unbiased) things to say on this subject . . .
Someone objects to police being forced to eat their own dog food. Someone is probably a cop who would find his own dog food unpalatable.
Nope. I’m not even aware of any cops in my extended family.
I was just saying that this dude, whose name is Anarchyst, wrote out like four posts and 500-600 words about not trusting cops. I was not saying anything about his arguments (there’s too many to read).
Make them have some skin in the game….25% of every financial judgement against them comes from their pension fund. Maybe that will make them start to kick those oh so rare (sarc) bad apples out
Well, I don’t know about raiding the “pension” fund. They should be personally liable, l think the same thing for all of the pervy congressmen too, if its the department too, fine, individual action should have individual consequences.
Actually many departments already have random drug testing. Fail once and you are fired. Many also do have an ROE, but, you are correct in it is less restrictive than the Obama era military ROE. The military ROE is appropreitly looser now, and was also looser under Bush. The current ROE/Bush era ROE, I think makes the more sense because it focuses on what someone is doing with a weapon, not merely possessing one. LE the US right now, if you appear to be “reaching” for it, it’s game on. In combat an enemy combatant actually has to be in the process of raising his weapon to fire. Meanwhile the Obama era ROE was a confusing mess of garbage designed to cause mission failure.
Around here cops that fail drug testing are just moved to the parole and probation department after undergoing “treatment”, which is a couple of (paid) weeks at a live-in facility.
Extremely well thought out and well written. I agree with every word.
i view the police the same as everyone else: probably decent folks for the most part but push comes to shove they care about themselves more than me.
I don’t trust my self a lot of days, why would I trust anyone else? Certainly not a group of people who are part of a political wing (unions) and are subject to the whims of politicians themselves in many cases. Pass.
That said, blindly saying all is the fault of the police is garbage. The statistics don’t support it in most cases. It’s also garbage to see the increased supply of weapons to the police your typical Democrat would sneer at you or I having.
1) Obedience can be demanded and fear can be sown, but trust must be earned.
Excellent article on why the “good” cops support the a-holes regardless of the conditions.
Interestingly, it’s the same phenomenon that made any effort to bring democracy to Iraq was fairly well doomed from the start. You can’t vault a tribal culture to liberty without passing something like the Magna Carta along the way.
Not really. I’m wary of anyone who can kill me just because they got up on the wrong side of the bed that day and then have a good shot at getting away with it just based on their current employer.
My general rule is to avoid situations that draw cops. When they show up things are going badly for someone and that someone might turn out, for no real reason, to be me. It’s happened before. I have no desire to repeat such an experience.
I agree with the majority of comments. No, I do not, and never will trust LEO. 65 years of encounters. Mostly in church, the community, school, gun club, occasional speeding ticket.
My experience has taught me two things. LEO are NOT there to serve and protect. More like “write a report and supply a body bag”.
The one common trait I have observed…..ARROGANCE. Every. Single. One.
Lastly, before I am blasted for my comment. I do have more than a little exposure to LEO. I have, for many years, volunteered in the ER of public hospitals. We have our fair share every day in the ER.
Right. “LEO are NOT there to serve and protect.” They are there to protect and serve the interests of the state, not us.
I figured out a long time ago that if someone busts down my door at 3:00am the most likely scenario is it’s a SWAT raid with either the wrong address or bad information, rather than a criminal. If it were criminals I’d probably have them outgunned, certainly caught by surprise (no burglar would enter your home if he expected to be confronted by an armed resident). But if it’s a SWAT team I’ll be outnumbered and outgunned by a team wearing body armor that will stop even my hot .357 loads. And even if I somehow win that gunfight the best case scenario is I’m going to spend the next two years in prison before my acquittal. So considering that, I’m much more afraid of the cops than the robbers.
FUCK NO!!!!!! next question.
Some police thinking in Delaware:
https://www.leafly.com/news/politics/delaware-officials-eye-gun-ban-for-cannabis-consumers This would make an interesting TTAG post.
I don’t trust anyone I don’t know. I don’t care what job they have or what uniform they wear. Like many other posters have already iterated here; trust is earned. That is also a two-way street. I don’t expect some random cop who doesn’t know me to trust me implicitly, either. It’s why I try to move slowly with my hands plainly visible and calm at my sides when encountering them. Going that far is, at least, a professional courtesy.
Who cares about uniforms? For all you know that “cop” could be Ted Bundy.
Generally no. It is too easy for a person to fall prey to temptation when they are, are seen as, or consider themselves to be, above the law.
My daughter gave up her life long desire to be a police officer after she became one. She saw constant corruption and petty crimes being committed by her fellow officers. She decided to leave when she started to be afraid that they would all be caught . . . brown stuff tends to splatter.
I belong to the school of thought that believes in not biting the hand that feeds you and that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
They don’t care anymore . The last mayor ruined their moral during the riots when she said ” Oh just let them do what they want “. And they did looted and destroyed a CVS pharmacy and other tax payers property. The police had to sit and watch the show . The mayor we have now thinks bringing jobs will solve everything. Last month without telling the mayor and police comissioner the Governor held a press conference and said he would start using state law enforcement to try and help with crime in this city. Its one of those places that you would have to live here to understand . And yes their are a lot of shitbag police officers here.
The better question is, why would you trust them? And not to pick on police officers…why would you trust anyone who hasn’t earned it in your eyes?
Respect? Yes. Trust? Verify.
Respect is also earned. I am non-aggressive. I harm nobody. I live quietly, minding my own business. And I do not live in a city. I’ve actually only been “stopped” by police once in my nearly 55 years of driving.
But trust them? Ever? No thanks.
When I took martial arts classes, they always told us to show respect to our enemies, right before we struck them down with a sword or beat them to death or whatever, but they never expected us to bow to anyone outside the dojo.
Spurring distrust in police and government is Orwellian Alinsky Soros ANTIFA crap. Russia also promised to destroy us from within, pushing this too, along with drug use, promiscuity, and gender fluidity.
Being a cop [like every other governmental position] is a position of servitude to your jurisdiction. Whenever and wherever you find it is not, there will be no small problems.
You do realize that this nation was founded by men who evaded taxes, smuggled drugs, rioted, tarred and feathered government employees and shot cops? “Trusting” the government or it’s employees is not the trait of an American.
Not to mention men who would demolish homes of the king’s agents whose job it was to collect taxes and control commerce.
When the cops work for Ingsoc or Der (local) Fuhrer, then you shouldn’t trust them. Cops never work for YOU- they work for the chief, mayor, the governor, the sheriff, and/or the AG, and if it serves the department’s interest, they will blow you away for breathing.
Nope…I’ve known more than a few in 64 years. From the low paid county mounties of my youth to the jerk cops I’ve known(mainly at the gym) to the criminal state po-leece dude issuing me a bogus speeding ticket(he had a stack of 77mph tickets and his light was blinking) NO. My van NEVER hit 77. BTW this is another reason I come to TTAG. On FB don’t dare say anything against the po-po on most gungroups. I do think we need “em but around me they mainly lurk behind foilage to give speeding tickets…
Same here. My entire family was in our family sedan driving home from church one Sunday morning when a deputy pulls us over and claims that he clocked us doing 70 mph in a 50 mph zone — even though we were going about 50 or 51 mph. Without even thinking about it, I passionately and somewhat loudly exclaimed something to the effect of, “Absolutely not! That is impossible!” He checked my spouse’s driver license, registration, and proof of insurance and then made up some bogus story that his experience and trained observational skills indicate that we were not moving anywhere near 70 mph and that his radar/laser was either malfunctioning or clocking someone else — and then sent us on our way without a ticket.
On another occasion a deputy pulled over a church member’s daughter after midnight, claimed that he smelled marijuana in the car, put her in the back seat of his car, and proceeded to search her car. Of course he did not find anything because there was no marijuana on her person nor in her car and eventually sent her on her way.
Thus, I know of two events in my county where deputies invented totally bogus, fictional reasons to stop people, interrogate them, and look into their vehicles.
No, I do NOT trust police at all.
I got a ticket for drag racing…in a Smart car, against a sportbike, not speeding mind you. Had to get an attorney to fight it, his argument “how could you tell” it had 73hp, 0-60 in like 15 seconds. The judge actually sided with me, but cost $800.
As a rule, no. Cops need to realize they are civilians with badges and nothing more. They should be treated as such when applying the law.
Police aren’t “civilians,” you fuckin pleb. They are the ENFORCER CLASS.
They are not subject to UCMJ. That makes them Civilians.
Need to calibrate your sarcasm meter.
I want to…
Q: “Do you trust the police?”
Q: NO. Frankly, I don’t trust anyone more than I absolutely have to.
As a rule, no. Cops ned to realize they are civilians with badges and nothing more. They should be treated as such when applying the law.
Like they say, “Next time you end up in deep shit, if you don’t trust the police, call a lawyer.”
As someone who’s worked in military and law enforcement, in America and overseas, I’m here to tell all of you don’t trust anyone. Maybe close members of your personal family and maybe your spouse. Realize the vast majority of people you know will put you out if it will benefit them. Everything is often not as it seems. Be suspicious of most people you meet, especially if they come to you.
I am an officer and just want to weigh in.
Should you trust them? No more than you would trust any other stranger. There are 800k law enforcement peeps in the U.S. Out of 800k individuals you are bound to have more than a handful of bad apples, but combined with the siren song of authoritah there are a lot of officers out there who just don’t need to be in that position.
That being said, the way our nation handles Police, which is divided up at the local level, it’s kind of a mixed bag as to the culture within each department. Some departments, like mine, have fairly vicious internal affairs departments that thoroughly investigate accusations of misconduct and apply appropriate penalties. Our department has a policy of “if you lie, you are instantly fired,” so we don’t have a “blue line of silence” culture in my department. A- I don’t want to work with jackasses, B- the citizens should not be subjected to such jackassery, and C- I’m not losing my job because some other idiot couldn’t do the right thing.
On the other end, there are departments where there is a problem with silence and lackadaisical IA. Those departments need to be purged.
That being said, people love to bitch about the police but no one ever seems to offer any practical solutions to get more qualified applicants. To be honest, a lot of otherwise qualified people don’t want to work for police departments anymore because altruism doesn’t pay the bills. While Police can make bank in union states (Police unions should not exist, by the way) in most states it’s a modest living with perpetually diminishing benefits. If you want to get consistent, qualified officer hires with life experience you’re going to have to pay for it. It’s just the reality of today’s world. The problem is with most people rabbling about their taxes paying others’ salaries, people don’t want to budge on that.
“That being said, the way our nation handles Police, which is divided up at the local level, it’s kind of a mixed bag as to the culture within each department.”
Cited for truth.
If I saw:
* a Berea, OH cop being attacked, I’d intervene, with deadly force if necessary.
* a Rocky River, OH cop being attacked, I’d dial 911.
* a Chicago cop being attacked, I’d step over his corpse to get where I was going. When criminals fight each other, I don’t get involved.
Bad apples make bad orchards.
As with the Catholic priesthood, when misconduct is ignored, those committing it advance to positions of authority where they can nurture others who engage in that misconduct. The Chicago, Philadelphia and New Orleans Police Departments are the result.
I trust the cops I know personally as people. As for law enforcement in general. Not one bit.
Even the two I know personally are perfectly aware that I do not trust them as cops for the simple reason that I will not trust anyone who gets trained in how to lie in order to do their job.
To operate a radar gun and do traffic, yes.
To investigate a crime after the fact, maybe.
To be proactive and prevent crime? No.
I’ve spoken to enough to have heard endless repetitions of “I think I could make a good case for X” when there was reasonable doubt on the face of the matter to where a county prosecutor wouldn’t even take the case to court.
I’ve been in enough encounters to have heard “You can’t expect a cop to know every law he’s enforcing” when at the same time I’m expected to know every law I might violate. If I’m doubtful about something’s legality I don’t do it. By the same token, if a cop is unsure of a things illegality why is he investigating the act rather than researching the law? Why is Officer Friendly enforcing a law when he’s unsure if there IS a law?
To operate a radar gun and do traffic, yes.
You’ve never been driving 52 in a 55 zone and gotten ticketed for 66 in a 55 zone by a cop you previously filed a criminal complaint against?
As a retired cop, I only trust the ones I know and respect.
Same as when I was working.
I know a few that I don’t trust or respect. And they know it.
All protecting a few bad apples == All Bad Apples.
After Chicago cop Tony Abbate tried to stomp a barmaid (whom he outweighed by 100lb.s), not only did his friends threaten the victim, her employer and witnesses, dozens of cops engaged in VERY ostentatious displays of support for him. Online, there were dozens of pro forma one line “condemnations” by cops of the beating… followed by paragraphs of whining about how the video of the beating was being “shown too much”, and that it shouldn’t have been released AT ALL
After Atlanta cops murdered Kathryn Johnston in an illegal raid premised on a perjured warrant affidavit obtained on the basis of the “testimony” of an imaginary “informant”, cops planted drugs in her home to justify the murder, then kidnapped a real confidential informant and suborned perjury from him with threats and inducements.
I could go on.
The police have the trust they’ve earned.
Cops deal with the lying scum of society on a daily basis, it does affect many where they cannot trust who they are dealing with. Add drunks / druggies / crazies and people with bad attitude and it can go bad fast. So bottom line, I trust them, but I am wary of exactly what I say to them and how I interact with them. Speak polite, move slow, follow directions, nothing really hard.
I found a few that are on power trips and if you challenge them, they will make life miserable for you. I found a few frankly, totally burned out and just going through the motions. A large number however seems to be decent and on more than a few occasions shown me mercy by not giving me a ticket, most likely because I was decent to them and did not cop an attitude (pun)
I just don’t see a reason to bitch out them.
No, I do not trust the police.
I’m a bail bonding agent and also do bail recovery in the Atlanta Metro area. I’m pro-constitution, white, educated and Navy veteran. The culture of LE has changed from being the public servant trying to keep the piece with street smarts and emotional intelligence to more of a para-military occupying force. LE over-whelmingly does not stop crime. Their presence just delays it until they leave. Laws do not stop crime, just allows the government to sanction you for violation. As we have seen with people like hillary Clinton, the law simply does not apply. On the other side, a Navy sailor making an innocent mistake by taking pictures in his submarine spends time in the brig. Yes, he violated policy however, he didn’t have the money or influence to mitiagate the sactions.
These issues we have with law enfocement are complicated. The government has made so many activities illegal under the guise of providing public safety. Its simply a lie. In “America” you can go to jail for crossing the street in the wrong location.
Correct on all accounts. There are so many laws in this country that it is almost impossible not to break at least one each time you leave home.
Generally, the police are not your friend.
A lot of cops appear to believe that this is 1914, they’re the Kaiser’s army and the rest of us are Belgians.
To them, we’re all just potential “francs tireurs” and if they shoot a few of us for no reason (like Hispanic paper delivery women and surfers) it’s “no harm, no foul”.
Act like a hostile army of occupation, get treated like one. That somehow seems to surprise them.
My county sheriff’s department in Northern KY got a couple surplus MRAPs, for….I guess free was the reason, but really WTF does a suburban/rural force need with an armored vehicle?
I trust the police about as far as I can throw them. Up hill. Against the wind. One handed.
Actually, that’s not entirely true. I always trust that police will do the wrong thing, and they’ve never disappointed me in that regard.
That’s about as much as I trust lawyers.
Yeah — I trust them to do whatever they think they can get away with in pursuit of points for promotion.
A WWII vet here says that’s optimistic; to him, the cops have become what he went to Europe to fight against so long ago.
Blanket answer–No. Wouldn’t want that job but they obviously do for their own reasons.
As many others have said; during interaction, obey commands even if they are wrong, be polite but don’t grovel, don’t offer any information or conversation (which can and will be used against you) keep your hands in sight and extricate yourself from their presence as quickly as possible.
Worst case scenario I try to remember the following; 1. I do not consent to any searches, 2. I refuse to answer any questions and I want an attorney, 3. Am I being detained or am I free to go? Any questions, see number 2.
I didn’t always feel this way but I learned my life lessons.
Police have a tough job. But I tend to get more headaches from them than handshakes. Examples:
1) On a bright sunny day on a five lane road/highway I rolled through a school bus as it was offloading kids at an apartment. They obviously aren’t going to allow the kids to cross 5 lanes of traffic. I was zoning out when I was driving and it was extremely bright outside on a hot summer day. By the time I saw the school bus it was too late to stop. I braked sharply and then let off the brake as I had already passed it. Again it was a 5 lane road. Per the law, had it been a 4 lane road with a small grassy median, I wouldn’t have to stop at all. But since it was a 5 lane road with a turning lane in the middle, I had to stop. I was driving on the far right lane, and the bus was in the oncoming traffic lane in their far right lane (i.e. as far as I could be from them on this road). A police officer pulled me over and wrote me a ticket for the incident. In my locale, the police themselves, petitioned the city council to enact harsher penalties for people rolling through bus stops. The penalty is now license revocation. The police officer gave me a ticket for a mandatory court appearance, where I had to spend large sums of money, time, and effort to keep my license, because the government thought that a blanketed safety rule was better than leaving the decision with individual drivers. It is against the law to hit people with your car. Including kids getting off buses. But they needed to make it more illegal, and they accomplished it by enacting blanketed legislation that removed people’s ability to think and make a decision in lieu of just following a rule regardless of situation.
2) My home was once burglarized with several items stolen. I called the police. A 300 lb guy showed up who was out of breath just walking 30 ft across my lawn and up two stair steps to enter my abode. There were fingerprints everywhere. I showed him a picture perfect finger/palm prints on a glass window that couldn’t be easier to process. He did nothing but took my information.
3) I was traveling through a tiny town at around 11:00pm on my birthday. All the lights were out in the entire town and everyone was asleep. I saw the speed limit change from 35 to 45mph. I accelerated about 100 feet before I reached the 45mph sign. An officer hiding in the dark turned on his dome light as I passed by him, then his headlights and then pulled me over to write a ticket.
4) In high school a few friends and myself were at a house party. I don’t drink, so I drove my friends car. When exiting the premise, a police officer pulled us over. He claimed I spent too much time in the turn lane. Apparently I didn’t make a perfect 90 degree left turn into the proper lane. He was staked out near the house we visited. He gave me a warning, after yelling at us for my friends moving around inside the car during our stop, and searching our vehicle. Nothing was found – we didn’t have anything to find.
5) I had a second burglary at my house when I was college student. I didn’t bother calling the cops given the first experience I had with them.
6) I had a burglary in my vehicle. The guy tried to steal my car, but didn’t know I was having battery problems. He stole my tool box out of the trunk. I didn’t bother calling the cops given my prior experiences.
7) I had a burglary in another vehicle. The guy broke my window and took my stereo/gps. I didn’t bother calling the cops/reporting it.
8) The neighbor on my right had his car broken into. My car was broken into too. And the neighbor on my left had his car broken into. None of us called the police. We all jointly felt it was a waste of time.
So as you can see, most of my experiences are based on police enforcing the populace opinion on me. Especially when I was hurting no one, and there was no victim. So I’m not a big fan of the populace or the police. When the populace pass a law that a faction advocated for cheers and announcements of victory are hailed by the faction. Later another faction of the populace pass a law that that faction advocated and more victories are announced. But really all that is happening, is that the moronic populace oblivious to their own ignorance, are celebrating their joint freedom that they once held, taken hostage by their own intolerance for each other. Decades later I have to live in their s*** that they created for themselves and their future progeny. And the cops enforce it.
There’s my 2 cents. Hope you enjoyed it.
No. Next question.
There’s what – 7 billion people on earth? I trust about 7 – and 3 of those I ain’t too sure about. My brother is a retired cop. He ain’t on the list
i trust them to murder and steal
… or, at the very least, shoot your dog, plant evidence, and search your car without a warrant or pc.
I’m a licensed professional engineer. Been involved in many CIVIL court cases.
Based on all the depositions, legal briefs, etc, JUSTICE IS NOT BLIND..
It is corrupt. Why do so many bad guys with murder convictions get jail for a few years and then out? Could it be bribes? Could it be that we know something about you, your family, etc?
If you are involved in a shooting, even if it’s on video and plenty of witnesses, DO NOT TALK to the police even if it’s a friendly “How are you doing?” That’s the road to hell.
Violent criminals are released after short sentences because politicians don’t want them in prison. Some of it is a genuine (but misguided) faith in rehabilitation. Most, however, is an unwillingness to fund the prison system adequately. Nobody has the courage to tell voters that their only options are to pay for prison cells or to be preyed upon by criminals running around loose. In my state, the prison system has been underfunded for decades. It’s overcrowded by 50% because the state won’t build another facility. It’s always understaffed because salaries are too low to attract enough good people. The “solution” the politicians are working on is more early release.
With due respect, Kendhal, that is complete horseshit. The last problem governments have is that they take too little of your money. Prisons are overcrowded because nearly 80% of prisoners are incarcerated for non-violent, victimless crimes. Someone has their life destroyed because they had a plant in their pocket or because their magazine held 11 rounds instead of 10. Every year we see more laws criminalizing non-violent behavior.
Think of all the stupid stuff and the corruption the government wastes money on and try to convince yourself that underfunding is actually the problem. If prisons and prison guards were a priority for them, they would find the money for it. The fact is that they don’t give a shit. “Underfunding” is a lie.
I trust some federal law-enforcement, the FBI (not ATF or DEA), much more any than local police I’ve ever been around. Many awesome officers, many more bad ones.
You trust the FBI?…what rock have you been living under the past few years?
aka Clinton’s and the DNC’s personal investigation bureau
Trust is a difficult thing. I trust my wife and son. Beyond that really no one with my life. I do respect law enforcement. Always be polite. Answer yes officer or no officer when appropriate. This has always worked for me in keeping the situation calm and hassle free. Sometimes you get the attitude you present even when you may think they are being Aholes keep it calm and even keel. People always complain that the officer didn’t do enough too diffuse a situation. Remember they most likely don’t know you any better than you know them. The situation can be high stress for both sides. I not making excuses for anyone. I just know being a police officer is damn dangerous work and I won’t do it.
Actually “police work” is one of the safest occupations in the work world, much safer than that of electricians, linemen, loggers, welders, and other occupations. Let’s not forget that cops have a “license to kill”, not unlike James Bond (007)…(not sarcasm).
I was a vendor to law enforcement.. Trust NONE. An old cop getting ready to retire told me, “Be very careful around cops wit buzz cuts or shaved heads. They have a bad attitude”.
I’m from Chicago:
Jason Van Dyke
Yeah, I trust the police… as far as I can throw Tony Abbate and Bill Clinton’s little black book…
It’s not just the police the politicians who run the cities Chicago ILL San Jose CA Charlottesville Virginia all run by Democrats. They ordered the police to stand down. people whose speech they disagreed with, Trump supporters were attacked, by mobs that the local government agreed with. It’s not just the police but the government officials in charge of the police.
We live in KY, we’ve got lots of redneck cops who are awful, and there’s nothing but R’s up and down the county government.
But I don’t trust anybody, anyway, who I’ve not served with in the military under dire circumstances…and, of course, my German Shepherd.
Here are “police” practices that deserve to be exposed:
#1. During a traffic stop, the police officer will touch the back of your car. The reason for this “touch” is that, quite often, the police officer will have a small quantity of narcotics (marijuana or cocaine) on him (in his hand) that he will rub on the car in order to help “justify a search”. When the dog is brought in, it will react to “cues” from its handler as well as the drug residue on the vehicle and help “justify a search”. This tactic is mostly used against young people. Drugs can also be “planted” on a “suspect”.
The “touch” used to be a way for police officers to “prove” that they had an interaction with a citizen, but no more . . .
#2. Most (if not all) cops possess a “throwdown” weapon. This “helper” is obtained from a criminal who is then “let go” without his weapon and is always used to justify a questionable police situation and to “sanitize” a “crime scene to absolve police on the scene of criminal police behavior.
#3. If you are in the back of a police car, LIE DOWN on the seat. Police use the concept of “screening” to abuse their unwilling “passenger”. This involves, driving at high rates of speed, violent turns and other antics to get the passenger to “hit the screen” separating the front from the back with his face. Hence the act of “screening”.
#4. If you are being handcuffed, quite often the police officer will wrench you arm behind you, forcing you to “turn around”. Another “trick” is a foot to the instep, forcing the individual to involuntarily “pull away”. The officer will then add a charge of “assault” to whatever other charges they concoct against you (just for being forced to turn around). They “pile on” charges, hoping you will plead guilty to at least one.
Remember–NEVER CONSENT TO SEARCH . . . You must be polite, but firm in your refusal. You can state that “you NEVER consent to searches” as well as using these “magic” words–“am I free to go?” The police officer MUST answer your question . . . If you are being detained and an illegal search takes place, you have legal recourse.
Remember–police are not your friends . . .
That being said, not all “law enforcement” personnel are criminal, but the “thin blue line” that they so jealously guard (and “look the other way” when rogue cops abuse their authority) does much to taint ALL “law enforcement” personnel with having ulterior motives.
#1. Nope. It’s to put a fingerprint on the tail light and check that the trunk is closed.
#2. False. I don’t know a single cop with an unmarked .38. Bonus point if you can name a single one.
#3. That’s certainly happened.
#4. Routine handcuffing involves force. I’ve pushed feet with mine a bunch of times, and it’s simply a positioning move. So is a bent wrist or twist lock handcuffing technique. Handcuffing techniques are designed to maximize control of the officer, not to maximize comfort. When someone who isn’t actively resisting gets properly handcuffed, their chance of injury is low. The handcuffing injury rate in our whole division is less than 1%.
I’ve said many times before that dirty cops certainly exist, and that they should be aggressively prosecuted. Things may certainly be different in your neck of the woods. I’m a believer of videos – they take a lot of the guesswork out of policing, and help the police, public, lawyers, and suspects to be accountable.
It is apparent that your reading comprehension skills need improvement…
#1. I DID state that the “touch” used to be a way of proving interaction with a citizen…but in today’s “anti-drug” climate, CAN be and is used to “justify” a (normally) illegal search.
#2. Unofficially, it is suggested in police training that a “throwdown” weapon be obtained in order to “sanitize” a questionable police “situation”. The “thin blue line” protecting its own…
#4. When your “positioning move” is used to add charges to a compliant suspect, just because you jerk a suspect around, THAT is a problem. It happens much more often than you think.
As to your point that videos always help ascertain TRUTH, you are dead wrong. Grand juries, and police friendly prosecutors quite often, “no bill” questionable police behavior, even with incontrovertible video evidence. Add to that the “malfunctioning” (yeah, right) of body and dash cams… A case in point, the Albuquerque New Mexico murder of a homeless man who was standing on a hill, murdered by a police officer with a rifle standing about several hundred feet away. No, tell me, how was that homeless man a threat to an officer?? Of course, the “grand jury” no-billed that one, too….
I stand by my statements…
Wow. You’re so awesome! Good luck with that.
I stopped trusting police about the same time they were removing “to protect and serve” from all their squad cars
Short answer, NO. Not a single one of them.
I once told a policeman that “if I had to choose a profession to have blind faith in it would be grade school music teachers” and that “there were just as many criminal cops as criminal plumbers”
Anyone who has ever been in traffic court knows that the police will bald-face lie in court. Only a fool would trust them.
No, I don’t trust the police. I’ve seen how dishonest they are with traffic enforcement. Like pulling me over for not wearing my seat belt (while I was wearing it). Writing me a ticket for it, lying in court about it, lying about what I said, etc. If they can’t be trusted with the small things they sure can’t be trusted with the big things.
Lots of predictable cop bashing on this one, one of the things where I separate from a lot of TTAG. I can’t stress enough the importance of good video. While some of the cop bashing is unfortunately justified, I wonder about a lot of it. At any rate, the vast majority of the complaints we receive, after reviewing the evidence, are unfounded. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve cited who weren’t speeding, were wearing their seat belt, weren’t drunk, were racially profiled, weren’t hauling ass on their motorcycles, and the list goes on. That makes me glad for video, which winds up telling a different story.
I’m sure that my experience is different than others. I’m a believer in evidence. When people have evidence to back their claims, they can get some traction.
I think the problem stems from the lack of accountability. Even if 99% of cops are good, the fact that there are essentially no checks for the bad 1% means that it’s quite difficult for us, as average citizens, to trust any of you guys since we obviously can’t distinguish an honest stranger from a dishonest one, and doing or saying the wrong thing around a dishonest one could cause huge problems for us, up to and including the loss of our lives. Maybe that’s not fair to folks like you and Hannibal, but there it is
“Good” cops can be relied upon to circle the wagons around the “bad” ones. I’ve never seen it NOT happen.
Police unions and Black Lies Matter are perfect mirror images of each other, sociopaths supporting sociopaths. Only the constituents differ.
There was video of Tony Abbate trying to kick the barmaid to death.
That didn’t stop plenty of cops from:
* denying it happened.
* saying it was justified.
* saying the video never should have been released to the public.
Police have more than earned the reputation they have.
You have evidence right? I mean surely you don’t demand evidence while providing none yourself…
Oh wait, no you didn’t… I guess your personal anecdotes count more than ours.
Yeah. Anecdotes. As I’ve said before, I’m an evidence guy. Bring me something I can use, in the jurisdiction that I serve in, and I’ll actually use it. My anonymity is here so that my words on TTAG can’t be used against me in court. There are dirty cops. I’ll freely admit that. There are plenty of cases of cops getting fired, suspended, written up, placed on additional training, and straight up chewed out. I’ve helped on those cases. I guess I’m just really not that concerned about TTAG opinions on anything that lacks substance. The stories of police abuse of power get reported orders of magnitude more than when police do their jobs. Police brutality grabs headlines almost as much as active shooters. I don’t defend bad cops, and any accusation that I do otherwise lacks merit.
Anyways, you can bash cops as much as you want. It doesn’t change the way I do business or how I train my personnel.
My Dad was a deputy Sherrif for 20 years, and two things he taught me. Don’t let a cop in your house, and don’t trust anything they say because they Will lie. Those words have severed me well. Unless you have a warrant your not getting in, and I have had no problem taking to them through the window when they showed up for a false home alarm. They didn’t seem to mind.
Too bad deputy dad didn’t have the time to work with you on that English and spelling homework. Too funny!
Good advice misspelled is still good advice.
Police are every bit as trustworthy has itinerant “roofers” and “driveway resurfacers” operating door to door out of a van…
Too bad your dad probably wasn’t even in the picture to start with, much less hung around long enough to teach you to think critically — assuming he even knew how to himself. Too funny!
I don’t trust people I don’t know, I don’t trust most of the people I do know…
These bad cops were part of the gun task force. They should be held to higher standards if they are intruding on people’s right to be armed. Seems they were no better than common criminals
In my life I probably had less than 10 police interactions, most on the road. I must have an honest face, since every cop has been polite, and often let me go with no tickets or charges.
One especially sticks in my mind: some years back, living in Daytona Beach, I was on A1A driving towards my house from Orlando Speedworld in my 95 Impala SS, when someone behind me was tailgating pretty closely.
This ticked me off, so I turned on the Nitrous and hit it. Of course made a lot of rubber smoke and noise….I saw the blue light immediately and came to stop. The officer came to my window and apologized for the tail gating, saying he was just checking out my car. We spent over 1/2 hour talking and checking out the engine.
Never even gave me a warning!!
However, I agree with some posts in that you NEVER invite any government official without a warrant into your house….
I don’t trust the police, and I’m not a cop worshiper like most conservatives.
No, not most of them.
More red meat tossed to the cop hating losers drawn to TTAG by their favorite cop hating weed loving gun blogger. Too funny!
And like clockwork the Drew Peterson fan club puts in its appearance…
**More red meat tossed by the bad cop hating readers drawn to TTAG by their favorite bad cop hating gun blogger! Too funny!
FIFY. You’re welcome.
I don’t trust people who advertise their membership in an aggressive gang which is financed by theft. Trusting cops makes as much sense and is exactly as “ethical” as trusting child molesters.
Pretty sure we discussed this in another thread, but short answer – no.
Some of my best friends are cops.
No, I call “Criminals Are US”.
It turns out that Boston police routinely defecate and urinate on the beds of victims in the houses that they raid. This “tactic” is PROOF that American law enforcement is trained in Israeli military tactics. In the “occupied territories” (Palestine, proper), it is “normal behavior” for IDF troops to defecate and urinate in houses owned by Palestinians. This is a form of “disrespect” that has no place in ANY civilized society.
I am skeptical of all law enforcement officers, as there are many cases of brutal treatment on their part or unjustified use of weapons against civilians. Before the events with George Floyd, I was not interested in this topic, but then this topic became so relevant that I wrote at https://studymoose.com/police-brutality several works on this topic. I recommend reading and realizing the seriousness of the problem. This resource will also be useful for students, as they can get help with writing essays and articles.