This one comes straight from nj.com. “This question is being posed after a large amount of weapons were found in domestic dispute case in Saddle Brook. A man was stabbed by his wife, and she was charged. The police found the husband’s gun collection and confiscated it in accordance with protocol. He may be charged for the massive amount of gunpowder in his possession. Does the man’s large gun ammunition collection pose a threat to others? Some feel that his gun collection is no different than any other collection. As long as he isn’t using the guns or gunpowder to harm anyone, he should be allowed to have it. Others are concerned about the man’s intentions – what is the man’s reason for having such a huge amount of ammunition in the first place? Should there be a limit to how much ammunition a person can own?” Go get ’em tiger!
I’d call that collection a good start.
Heh. There’s still room for more cans. It is not enough. 😉
Why not discuss the REAL issue. GUN CONFISCATION!! This is going on nationwide. One household at a time. In this case, he was the victim of domestic violence. Then, illegal confiscation.
Amount of firearms, ammunition and gunpowder is no one’s business.
Storage requirements and limits on explosives makes sense to me.
Ammo, no way. As much or as little as you want.
^ This. It’s been proven time and again that ammunition in a fire really doesn’t do much that the the fire would not already have done.
I think smokeless powder too isn’t all that huge of a risk. Blackpowder though – like, legit black powder not 777 or anything like that can be a risk. That said, cities or counties making up bullshit arbitrary limits is not the right answer either.
Yeah it’s pretty darn simple. No matter how many firearms a person owns, if they are going to commit a crime they can only carry and use so many. Those who claim that a person who owns 20 firearms is more of a threat than someone who owns 1 or 2 haven’t thought it through at all.
Likewise, no matter how much ammo a person owns they can only carry so much. Even when they have the maximum physical amount on their person, I don’t think there have been any mass shooting scenarios where the shooter ran out. They killed themselves or were stopped way before that point. I remember the news reports after the Aurora shooting and they were going crazy about how he had thousands of rounds in his apartment. SO FREAKING WHAT!?!?! He was only capable of carrying 100-something on his person when he went to commit his crime.
Additionally, if one were to create a law capping ammunition ownership to an amount low enough to hinder mass shooting events, it would be a MASSIVE hindrance to all legal uses. On a fast range trip many of us will go through 150 rounds of ammo. I think that’s already much higher than any mass shooter has ever fired (the highest round count ever might go to one of the Columbine shooters, who fired 121 shots), so a law would have to cap it at less than that. It would put the total way below what any reasonable sport or fun shooter would use in a single trip to the range, in competition, in practice, etc etc.
As I believe the “safety” reason for limiting quantity of firearms or ammunition that can be owned makes NO logical sense, the only true reason I can think of is governmental self protection and control of the populous. Lots of firearms and ammo would be handy in an arm your neighbors, gov’t revolution sort of a scenario or a zombie apocalypse, etc.
I buy ammo in bulk for the same reason we buy various types of food and household goods in bulk — cost savings. This is NORMAL!!! Costco wouldn’t exist otherwise. Lots of ammo is not a sign of ill will. If you shoot even somewhat regularly, it’s a sign of frugality. Also convenience, obviously. The best possible case if a guy with a big guns & ammo collection goes off the rocker is that he/she straps on 20 firearms and 8,000 rounds of ammo and can’t even stand up haha
Okay … (I don’t agree)… maybe limits on “explosives” seems reasonable. But why take the man’s guns?!! He wasn’t the perpetrator of the domestic violence. That was a bullsh!t ruling.
Static NAT, that’s the way it works, dictated by real experts on self defense, ie people who never considered it before this morning. If there is even a HINT of domestic violence, in either direction, all firearms are confiscated, ‘cuz won’t we all just be safe then! It has been stupid forever, but in this case, with the non-gun-owning player using a knife, it sure looks like a case of disarming the victim to give the perp a better chance of getting the job done, next time.
That is the most disturbing phrase in the entire article. Seems police in Neu Jersey go out of their way to confiscate anything firearm related and good luck getting it back. He’s the one stabbed, she’s arrested, and he’s the one getting his stuff confiscated. Makes perfect sense.
I’m sure everyone noticed he had the ammo in ammo cans the same way our military and police store their ammo. And the article didn’t say, but I’ll bet he had the black powder stored in an approved manner also. When he gets well, he should find a good attorney and make the city cite chapter and verse of any violations that merited seizure of the entire lot.
And yeah, that picture sort of looks like my hall closet…
Gotta agree with ya Rick. That he lost his firearms at all is pretty disturbing.
If you are caught “growing” additional limbs in order to hold additional weapons, then I’d keep an eye on you if you are stockpiling (weapons/ammo). But only ’cause the extra limb thingy is kinda creepy.
Check that, if you are attempting to flood the country with illegal aliens so that you can take over the country, or if you are attempting to take away someone else’s weapons, then there is no amount of possession on your part that would be tolerable.
I’m pretty sure I saw a movie like that.
I had to go to my local fire chief and state fire marshal and build an approved magazine to store over 50 lbs of black powder for my cannon shooting and for my friends in the ML cannon hobby…. I did not have a problem with that as black powder is an explosive and not just a propellent like smokeless powder. As it happens I keep all my extra ammo in this separate secure building built to magazine for blackpowder standards.
I do live in the country not a few feet from a neighbor and I do understand that safety in a city or in a MULTI family building might need a volume of powder restriction. I have told the local fire chief where ammo and powder are kept in every home I have had for more than 50 years… That just seems like being a good citizen to me… Just as I let them know where the o2 and acetaline for my gas axe are kept.
But loaded smokeless ammo there is no need to put a limit on that.
WTF is a “gas axe”? Sounds like something I need!
I believe that a “gas Ax” would be an Oxy-acetylene gas welder or cuttin’ torch setup .
Well, I can see wall therefore this individual does not have enough ammo. Why do stupid questions such as this pop up?
I was going to say that!
NO! Agreed. Why can’t the government just leave us alone. If someone wants to collect guns let them. When did we become a society that takes citizens rights away before a crime is committed. I find it no different then confiscating a citizens car collection because the citizen could get drunk and drive…and since he has so many cars it makes it somehow more dangerous.
Not only no but f*ck no!
So if they can regulate the amount of ammunition we’re allowed to own, what’s next? The amount of gasoline we can have? The amount of food we can put in our pantries? Sorry sir, you have far too many pairs of socks…
+1. Good analogy on the gas.
+1 more. The slippery government control slope.
Well… speaking of food. You could be considered a ‘terrorist threat’ if you have more than 7 days stored.
Do a quick search. Just make sure you are not missing any fingers. That might compound the issue… 😉
If it ever comes to such “they” will decide you are an evil horder for having a personal stock of gas, or food or ammo. And sieze it.
Put a full pallet under that and a bit of space between cans/stacks of cans.
It is a bit of a fire hazard (no explosive hazard) if you value your house a sprinkler head above the area would be a very very good idea. 13R Residentail would be adequate. Better yet a smart man would protect his entire house with a 13R system. Not that expensive just tell her its more important than the damn granite countertops she wants.
But NOT no ones opinon on inventor level has ANY relevance.
SHE attack HIM and the idiot popo take HIS property???
“But NOT no ones opinon on inventor level has ANY relevance.”
Either a blood vessel just burst in the language center of my brain, or that sentence makes no sense. I hope it’s the latter.
I think the language center of my brain is likewise broken.
Also, granite countertops.
Maybe it’s inventory level.
NO. Everyone will always need 1 more pallet.
And that photo looks about right.
Much like an Indian truck driver, the maximum amount you should be allowed to have is “one more”.
Answer in one word.. NO!
Next they will want to tell me how much water or soda a person can buy and store…. oh wait………
yes. the limit should be at MINIMUM as much as required to serve as a rifleman in the citizen militia.
oh, you meant a MAXIMUM limit? dont be absurd…
“This isn’t Russia Danny”
If someone wants a large stockpile and is doing it with his or her own money, then in our free country, he or she should be able. Jared Loughner caused a lot of mayhem with only 30 to 50 rounds.
What’s wrong with lumber yards. I own two lumber yards…
“I notice you don’t spend much time in them.”
I’m not sure where they are…
Biggest problem I have with that pile of ammo is its location.
It’s not in my house.
Best comment I have read all day. You sir, Win.
I agree… Storing black powder in your own basement doesn’t seem safe. If you have more than a few pounds, you should have a climate-controlled shed or something to keep it stable. Modern ammunition, however, shouldn’t explode in any situation other than being set on fire…
Agreed. When I worked for the NPS we had regs about
The storage of black powder ( for historic weapons demonstrations, cannon firings, etc) and the powder had to be stored in a fire proof safe in a building “x” feet away from an inhabited building. Black powder is not fun stuff.
There already is a limit on the amount of ammo a person can buy. It’s the credit limit on his Visa card.
Probably why his wife stabbed him.
Ha! You so crazy. Good one.
If your Visa card is at it’s maximum, well then, just get a Master card. Problem solved!
If I have so many rounds that I can’t shoot it all up before it goes bad then I have too much. Probably why I have reloading equipment. I don’t want to have tons of ammo to store or haul around. And in the case that ammo supply becomes short, I would like to know that I have the means and methods to make more without having to rely on the suppliers.
Many people dont have reloading gear… I guess that works for you though.
I get your point… sort of. I always get a good laugh at the prepper(hoarder)/”ammo porn” videos on youtube where a guy is showing off stack-on cabinets stacked full of hundreds of loaded magazines for their AR/AK or just case after case after case of loose rounds on pallets. These people have more ammo than they will ever shoot in a lifetime, even if society descends to outright warfare. In an emergency what are you going to do with all that ammo? I guess at least the guy who has hundreds of loaded magazines can fill a backpack as full as he can stand to carry with the mags before he rolls out, loose rounds guy is going to get shot in the head while he is hunched over in the closet stuffing mags or be forced to leave without his stash, but seriously, if SHTF and you have to “bug out”, you are going to leave 98% of that behind and maybe never come back to it whether it was loaded in mags or not.
Reloading doesn’t make sense for small stuff like mainstream pistol calibers (9mm, .40, 45ACP) heck it is a barely break even game for 223/556 unless you are talking expensive hunting/self defense ammo. Although, I pity the fool that drops a home intruder with some hand rolled ammo, I can just hear the shrieking from the prosecution already “your honor, this man was so obsessed with killing that even the ammo in the store wasn’t deadly enough, he had to make HIS OWN, this man isnt a murderer he is a TERRORIST!!!!” but I digress.
I try to keep a reasonable pile of lake city FMJ ammo in 556 and 308 for plinking/ practicing trigger control/ fundamentals, that I then use to feed the brass pile for reloading my hunting ammo or precision target shooting (read showing off at the range) ammo.
I buy whatever is cheapest for the pistols and don’t even bother saving my brass (which is good because a lot of times it is steel). Even with my 45, I would have to be casting my own bullets to make it worth the time and money invested. Can you imagine cranking out a thousand rounds for a handgun? That’s over 5-6000 steps to make 1000 rounds of ammo (resize/decap, flare, prime, throw powder, seat bullet crimp) Even with a progressive press that is a colossal amount of work for maybe a 20% savings over buying a case of cheap FMJ, and that’s not accounting for the time you spend on miscellaneous things like scavenging brass at the range, sorting/cleaning/inspecting brass, and the overhead for equipment (again this commentary only really applies to high volume pistol shooting ammo).
“In an emergency what are you going to do with all that ammo?”
Trade it for things you don’t have?
“Reloading doesn’t make sense for small stuff like mainstream pistol calibers (9mm, .40, 45ACP) heck it is a barely break even game for 223/556 unless you are talking expensive hunting/self defense ammo. “
I can load “high quality” 9mm for less per round than cheap crap fodder costs. If you are comparing the cost of handloaded ammo carefully assembled with carefully chosen components to cheap ball or whatever, that’s apples to oranges.
Currently loading 9mm with quality hollow point bullets and lower extreme velocity spread than Speer Gold Dot Factory ammo for about .20 a round.
“Although, I pity the fool that drops a home intruder with some hand rolled ammo, I can just hear the shrieking from the prosecution already “your honor, this man was so obsessed with killing that even the ammo in the store wasn’t deadly enough, he had to make HIS OWN, this man isnt a murderer he is a TERRORIST!!!!” but I digress.”
FUD promulgated by Ayoob without substantiation.
There are clear arguments against this ridiculous stuff.
If you are justified in shooting, you are justified in shooting with ball, hollow point, factory or hand load. If your lawyer is too incompetent to keep the argument on the facts of the case, “imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury,” that’s a different matter.
I think I’ll ere’ on the side of Factory ammo of any sort ( preferably hollow point) myself, instead of “home loads” should I ever be forced to defend myself. At least production ammo should be manufactured to a trackable standard or specification for a given brand and/or type.
Lol. That was awesome. Thanks for the morning laughs!
Oh. Wait. You were serious?
There’s another possible problem. Suppose someone comes up with a new caliber that you love so much you buy a bunch of different guns for it, and then it happens again, and again, (if this sounds like I’m talking from experience, well …) so eventually you repeatedly find yourself at the range with 3 guns and plenty of ammo for 3 different guns, ah, it’s just so confusing there’s only one thing to do! CRS! As in, caliber reduction sale! Those are made more difficult if you have a zillion rounds for each caliber. Self imposed limits are good. You should never buy more than you want, that’s my rock-hard rule. Any others are unconstitutional whether you approve or not.
Yes, that limit should be established by how much each man can purchase or produce. The same limit, and none other, should be established on all goods and services.
I don’t even know why antis even think about this. There isn’t much violent crime that would be done differently with 1000 rounds versus 50.
Then again, most antis don’t realize how small ammunition is. Send them a picture of a 1000 round box of .22LR as an eye opener.
That’s my line of thought too. What’s the most amount of ammo ever used in a crime? I’d guess the hollywood shootout is probably up there, but even that amount probably gets burned in a few weeks by a competition shooter. There is no way to restrict ammunition ownership in a way that would limit one man’s ability to unleash fury that wouldn’t be massively restrictive of competition shooters and weekend plinkers.
Yep, 11K rounds of 550/per Fed bulk boxes fit in one 40mm ammo can (2x2x5 boxes). Amazingly small space for over 10K rounds of ammo.
And it weighs only slightly less than a neutron star. 😉
The Antis’ fear of ammo stockpiles goes back to the age old assumption that each bullet an attacker carries is a confirmed dead body. Couple that with another assumption that a bad guy has unlimited ability to carry ammo with him. The reality of course being that your average joe can efficiently carry is what maybe 10 mags? maybe 15-20 if he has a chest rig and a belt full of mag pouches? So thats less than 1k rounds and the guy would be rolling around looking like Rambo, not exactly conducive to a surprise attack.
What if they “go off”? Huh? HUH? What then? What about the children?
For loaded ammo the maximum amount for be based on the load rating of foundation for the structure you are storing it in. But with enough space nothing is stopping you from adding structures to store your ammo. Loaded ammo has little risk to storage.
OTOH black powder and gun powder limits are based on fire risk. I can’t speak for what are the proper amounts.
Black Powder would be an explosive hazard and in an urban setting it may be wise to limit the amount that can be stored in a non-protected area. However, smokeless powder does not explode unless it is in a container that holds pressure. If stored in the shipping containers and not in tightly locked heavy metal containers, it just burns very hot and does not explode. The containment of the expanding combustion gasses increases the pressure and the increased pressure accelerates the chemical reaction resulting in an explosion. This is a little simplified, but basically what happens. This might warrant storage restrictions as to the type of storage container, but not as to sored volume of smokeless powder.
Now that I think about it, there are more firearms/ammo/firearm related items in my closet than actual clothes….
No limit. William Devane says “Buy gold!”. I say buy ammo.
If a limit is ever imposed, the allowable round count will be steadily diminished until it is close to nothing. After all, “Who needs more than a few dozen rounds?” Then there will be an ammo purchase database such as the one NY is creating, and background checks for ammo purchase–such as NY is working on. If the gov imposes limits, then the next obvious step is to develop a way to keep track of what we are buying.
… Then to limit what we are buying. Then to eliminate what we are buying. Then to confiscate what we WERE buying.
Basically self-limiting-depending on how much you can afford and can store.
Ammunition, no. What this gentleman might be charged with… maybe. As stated above, black powder being stored in mass quantity is a fire risk.. I would be leery of my neighbors if they were storing enough to incinerate their house along with mine.
But then again it’s none of my business what my neighbors do… until it is my business.
Yeah, a lot of black powder is a little scary, depends how close to the guy storing it you live. If i oz. can blow a gun up, think what a couple hundred pounds could do!
Some years back, a neighbor made his own fireworks, really professional, gorgeous displays, I think that’s black powder. Not the neatest guy, he didn’t exactly have everything squared away, one day was doing some welding on top of the barrel of powder. We went down to see what all the cops and EMS were all about, his shirt was still smoldering on the ground. I asked his son what happened and he said “my dad blowed hisself up.” After he recovered, he gave up on those lovely fireworks. I’m sure any kind of gunpowder would be kinda dangerous in that circumstance.
The gov has no business with WHAT I own. Especially how MUCH I own.
How much canned food is too much? Bottled water? Land? Cars? What about golf balls? None of their business!
Yes. Nobody should be able to possess more than the mass of the universe. But there’s already a law against that.
Physics shall pass no law that infringes on the rights of the people.
The quest isn’t a limit of how much a person can own, but how much can be owned in a defined space. When you work with explosives, you can only safly store so much in a given area. The idea is that if something goes wrong, it sets off nearby items making thing worse. You will find similar guidelines/laws for the storage of hazardous chemicals like ammonia.
smokeless powder/normal ammo does not fall into this category. Black powder does.
Years in age X 1000 rounds.
In 22LR? What about other ammo? 😉
Lots of luck on the 22, even if you are only 3 years old!
Well, let’s see, the age of the universe is figured at around 13 billion years…times 1000…I’ve got some ammo buying to do.
In 1968, the Ohio State Buckeyes defeated their bitter rival, the Michigan Wolverines, 50-14. Late in the game, Ohio State held a commanding 44-14 advantage and scored one final touchdown. Rather than taking the more common extra point kick, Ohio State head coach Woody Hayes opted for a two-point conversion, which was unsuccessful. When asked later why he went for two points, Hayes said, “Because I couldn’t go for three!”
Sounds like the apocryphal answer to “why did you shoot your attacker six times?”
…because I ran out of bullets?
“Because when I pulled the trigger a seventh time, it went click.”
Any person should be able to possess as much as they want un-infringed. Of course that only applies to the Actions taken by a Government with Limited Power that can read, understand, and comprehend the meaning of words and if necessary look up the words they don’t understand in a Dictionary. And let us not forget, enforcement constraints only apply to Government officials who took oaths that they can understand too.
Really sad that in order to be in Law Enforcement, the first thing you must do is compromise your principals, or have no principals and learn to LIE!
No. And it’s a stupid question. Cars kill more people than guns, there is no Constitutional provision specifically addressing a right to keep a car, and no one at this point in mainstream land would seriously question if there should be a limit on the number of cars we can own.
Agree on part. However I disagree with the comment “there is no right to own a car”. While right to keep and bear arms is enumerated, the right to own a car is an un-enumerated one and as such our right too. Everything, except the rights specifically delegated to the feds and to the state is our right.
I was actually careful NOT to say “there is no right to own a car”; I just said there is no explicit Constitutional provision addressing such as there is in reference to arms. Which is to say that the right to keep and bear arms should get , if anything, more rather than less deference than the right to own a car, operation of which, in public, has long since been held to be a “privilege”.
The feds disagree, and are often willing to kill you to prove they are right.
In a world where 50 rounds of 9mm (read one box to us normal people) is grounds for “a stockpile,” could you imagine the ridiculous, overbearing government scheme to track how many rounds you have bought, currently have, and have expended? No more going out to the desert and shooting because then you can’t “prove” that you expended that ammo (therefore, can’t buy anymore). It’s the perfect anti-gun utopian government control bullshit (that still wouldn’t work). And with those laws, another black market would be born.
This is why I sometimes worry about how many times I can reload a given case…and how much primers and powder I can store before I wonder what would happen in case of fire. 😉
Well, then again….
If I’m swimming, or on fire then yeah.
Otherwise, again, NO.
If you start to distort the rotation of the Earth, I do believe in my heart that you have a responsibility to others to stop hoarding. YES, stop buying ammo when the Earth starts to wobble because of you and your abbie normal desire for more ammo.
Holy shit, that’s the greatest.
Or if you live in Guam.
If Hank Johnson didn’t exist, Saturday Night Live would have to invent him.
Is this a real question?
As far as possession limits that are already on the books, black powder has a 50 lb limit without having a federal explosive license. not sure how much youre allowed to have with one. I dont know of a federal possession limit for smokeless though.
“Should There be a Limit to the Amount of Ammunition You Can Own?”
Those asking that question should first ask themselves if there should be a limit to the amount of food they can have? A limit on the amount of power they consume? A limit to the amount of kids they can have? A limit to amount of square footage on their homes? A limit to how much money they can have? A limit to how many cars they can own? A limit to how many locations they can go to on vacation? Etc., etc., ad nauseum.
Slippery slope and all that.
There are many on the left who would answer “yes” to all of those questions.
Yeah, you hit that right on the head, Zod. They’d like us all to be urban drones in the same micro residences, micro electric cars (if cars at all), with little or no difference in the spoils of success. Since to them success is evil in itself.
Excepting, of course, their own.
Then ask them if there should be a limit to the number of abortions someone could have. Just for fun, throw in “taxpayer-funded”.
Simple answer is ‘No.’
But to your larger point…the people who want to exercise control won’t stop with ammunition. As has already been said, to many gun grabbers (and even more problematic, the ignorant masses), 50 rounds counts as a ‘stockpile.’ But what happens once ammo is limited? A limit on the number of firearms is sure to follow, as well as magazines. Limiting gas? That’s in the works. Ever hear of gas lines? That may have been supply/demand here but not elsewhere. How about limiting electricity (think about California’s rolling blackouts), sugar (thanks Bloomturd), home size (soviet russia), children (China), etc. The real problem here is that the fight for the 2A and all of the accessories is just the tip of the iceberg. Those who seek to control the population are simply using the 2A as a starting point.
How the fuck do you enforce this? Like how? I go buy 1000 rounds and then just go back to the gun store and buy 1000 more and say i used it all up yesterday. Are we gonna be searching peoples houses? Fuck, i’ll just go bury it in the backyard. I swear to god these people don’t even have a thought process when it comes to this crap. Shit just comes out of their mouths and not only do they say it, but they write it in major news publications and it gets past the editor somehow.
They do this in MA. Therefore, it is a bad idea.
Correct! Here are the MA limits on ammo storage without a special ammo storage permit:
No more than: 10,000 rounds of rimfire ammunition; 10,000 rounds of centerfire rifle/pistol ammunition; 5,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition; 1000 primers; 16 pounds of smokeless powder; 2 pounds of black powder.
Good thing I don’t live in MA then.
The primer number alone would fit in a very, very small sandwich bag. Idiots.
Locally, some years back they tried to implement a “5000 round” total ammo limit. That would have sent a lot of people to jail for the 22LR amounts they had alone. Again, idiots.
Then store the overflow at your girlfriend’s place.
Add additional gfs for greater ammo storage…
…then get stabbed by one of those girlfriends, and we’re back to where this all started…
Honey, I had to get an extra girl friend. I needed a place to store the ammo!
Your honor, it was not an affair, it was a storage issue.
is this an either/or proposition? Like you can only have one of the above listed quantities? also what were they smoking when they set the limits on primers, you know, given that most mfg’s only sell in bricks of 1000, you reload for more than 1 caliber and you are violating the law. On rare occasions I have seen them for sale by the tray, but I don’t get why anyone would buy primers by the tray.
Looks like im a criminal in MA.
Pardon my counting, but if you have 10000 centerfire and 5000 shotgun, isn’t that pretty close to 15000 primers? Does anybody out there have any idea what they’re talking about?
I agree with limits on black powder, and think there may even be a federal limit already because of its explosive potential. Otherwise no. It’s no different than limiting how much stores can have on hand for retail sales. Are we going to tell Cabella’s (now that it is a “person” under the law) that it can’t buy millions of rounds of ammunition?
Having just blown through 3,000 rounds in classes this month I can only respond with: what kind of stupid @#$%^&* question is that?
Yes, and the excess should go to me.
Why yes, there should be a reasonable, common sense limit to the amount of ammunition able to be possessed by an individual…said no one ever.
Seriously though, shall not be infringed means shall not be infringed. A limit, like any other law, is an infringement, and therefore illegal and unacceptable.
Experts all agree that you should need no more than 2 rounds for hunting. For the children!
The news report I read mentioned “black gun powder”; however, the photo of the power removed looked like it was a variety of variously-sized containers just like those in which smokeless powder is sold. I suspect that all – or nearly all – his guns were “modern” and that all – or nearly all – his powder was smokeless.
– – – The “suspect” probably has no problem with his arsenal; even in NJ. There is no NJ law that speak to the number of guns you may own. (The only caveat is that it is critical NOT to acquire an ATF C&R FFL. If you have a large collection, Nappen advises to “document your collector motivation.)
– – – NJ strictly regulates how you acquire the guns; but not the number. Assuming that he has his NJ-FOID or moved into NJ after acquiring his guns out-of-state, he should be OK.
– – – His problem will be with the POWDER. NJ limits one to storing 5 lbs of black powder and 36 lbs of smokeless powder for personal use. The report is that he is WAY OVER these limits.
– – – I don’t know enough about the combustibility / explosive characteristics of loose powder. Commentary would be interesting on this point. I suspect that black powder is more dangerous and suspicious; no idea of whether there is much danger from smokeless.
– – – My read of Nappen’s “New Jersey Gun Laws” is that his problem is having more than the limit in ONE PLACE which was not an approved storage facility. If so, then any law-abiding NJ reloader can comply by minding the 36 lbs limit; or, taking care to distribute his stock in “places” that are distinct (e.g., multiple plastic garden sheds.)
You’ve piqued my curiousity: what’s the danger of having a C&R license in New Jersey?
That is fine stockpile.
Like others have mentioned, there are already regulations in some states on the amount of black powder one can store. Again, this is similar to any other hazardous material. Yes, this also includes items like how much gasoline you can store. (I believe in NYC, one can only store 2.5 gallons of gas legally, for example). I’m not aware of anywhere in the US that places limits on the number of loaded rounds. (Though other countries do have limits…)
One of the questions that I hear a lot is ‘Why do you need that much ammo?’. Besides the fact that a typically gun collector will have multiple calibers, I think the answer is pretty simple: economics. Like with everything, people try to buy low and sell high. The prices of ammo has fluctuated greatly over the past couple of years, and will likely change again in November. Additionally, the availability of ammo has been curtailed in some areas. I know of a lot of folks who are buying all the ammo they can find, when they can find it. Not because of any panic, just because they want to replenish their supply and continue to shoot when they want.
That said, I think this brings up a different question: Should one hide their ammo and guns? In this case, the gent did nothing wrong. He was the one who got stabbed, if I’m reading this correctly. Yet I can only imagine how much frustration he is going to have shortly trying to get his property back. (If he does at all). Since you can’t predict crazy, would paying $40 a month for a storage locker be insurance against a situation like this? Or would it even matter? I hate to sound like someone waiting for the end of the world. And perhaps I’m misjudging how easy it will be for the gentleman to get his property back. Perhaps the police will kindly store everything in a nice dry location and all he’ll have to do is sign a custody form of some sort?
I’m not aware of anywhere in the US that places limits on the number of loaded rounds.
Massachusetts does for one. See above for storage limits.
Loaded ammunition, no. Although I could probably get behind a cap on .22LR since I might actually be able to buy some of it if there was one.
Powder is another issue. I don’t have an issue with the existence of fire codes. How much powder constitutes a threat to your neighbors is beyond my pay grade, but typical reloaders are not a threat. I might be a little concerned if I found out my neighbor had 10,000 pounds of black powder stacked next to his furnace, though. But if your neighbors are far enough away and there’s no children in the house it’s none of the states business.
Limits on explosives storage (which is what powder is), based on zoning laws/setbacks is reasonable.
No different than if you wanted to start a fuel farm in your backyard – surely your neighbours have an interest.
Of course this is assuming a typical urban/suburban neighbourhood. In the country? Who cares.
What is truly dangerous is unregulated thought and unfettered sources of information, so we need limits on how many books anyone can own, how many TV channels they can access, which radio stations they are allowed to listen to, what magazines and newspapers they can read, and, of course, we must have limits on their access to EEEEVIL web sites such as TTAG!
First Amendment? Hey the guys who wrote the Constitution meant it to apply only to hand-powered printing presses and one-page broadsides, not the kinds of “assault media” available today!
We start slipping to socialism when the government determines what we can have by our needs. “No one needs more than 7 shots” “No one needs more than one car” “No one needs more than one child” No one needs that much money”
Me thinks there is a problem.
Awesome. Let’s start criminalizing intention….
And possible intention.
Check your local fire code they limit gas storage probably powder and ammo too
People want to arrest people based on imagined intentions smh
This speaks to an absurdity we face all the time, namely that the mere possession of lawfully acquired and owned objects automatically implies everyone else should be suspicious that you are up to “no good” and planning or intending to do something bad. The “logic” being that any excess of any objects. particularly ones that certain people regard as dangerous or evil, automatically signifies the “offending” party is as evil as the accusing party considers the objects in question and therefore poses a “danger to everyone else”.
Projected suspicion based on one’s own biases and irrational fears does not constitute “probable cause” to infer criminal intent in another person. Yet this seems to be an ever more accepted meme. Obviously, this perverted notion has been deliberately created by those who want to project their biases and fears onto everyone else for the purpose of denying the natural, Constitutionally protected and civil right to keep and bear Arms of the American People. Its acceptance hangs on the fact so many people are too ignorant and lacking intellectual/analytical skills to recognize the fallacy of its premises, and the News Media knows this and happily uses it as a “safe ground” to uphold the tissue thin veneer of journalistic “objectivity” they purport to practice.
It’s just stupid, deceptive and an evil methodology in its own right.
How much ammo do you need?
That is all.
One round more than it takes to stop the threat.
Who knows how much that will be?
NOPE. But, there SHOULD be a limit to what your local po-po and feds can.
The only limit: My bank balance.
(Same with my yarn and fabric stashes.)
No. That photo makes my massive stockpile (antis term) look SO insignificant.
For law abiding citizens, there should be any limits but Massachusetts does have them
Sorry, that should have said *shouldn’t be any limits*
I don’t see any tannerite! Where’s the tannerite!!!???
Heard it’s not legal in every state. That would be a reason, at least.
I am wondering exactly where the Feral or State government got the authority to determine how much of anything a law abiding citizen can have. They can make up all the BS laws they want, but where does the actual authority come from? It is well and truly none of their damn business how much food, water, ammo, whatever, I may have on hand. Only I can determine what quantities of anything, down to underwear and socks suits my needs. This is still America right? I am responsible for my loved ones being adequately provided for right? I have not ceded that right to any other person, or agency of the goverment.
Same old stuff, that authority comes out of the barrel of a gun.
If it was cash could they take it?
Material possessions are just money in a different form.
Unlike cash ammunition does not suffer from inflation.
Bill gates and Mark Zuckerberg have more money than anyone I know.
Do you think the police could take it from them?
Yes, there should be a limit. Anything over a million rounds, per gun, is just down right excessive.
Whatever my wife will tolerate.
Didn’t read all resonses – sorry if I repeat….of those I read, all good points, seeing limits for the back-door attempts that they are.
I consider my small “collection” to be an investment as well. Quality firearms, properly stored ammo and the like will appreciate (or at the very least hold value)…and are arguably a safer place for your money than some investments. Otherwise, to each his own..some gamble, some are video gamers, movie watchers etc….we all spend money on something we love doing/having.
Properly stored, I see no more a danger than the store you bought it in. Probaly safer than your local propane filling station.
Well, I have mixed feelings about that question. Let’s take them one by one:
1) If we’re talking about “black powder”, it could be quite dangerous in case of fire. Large quantity could be risk for your home, but also for the neighborhood.
2) In the other hand, if the government start keeping track of what you buy (and how much you buy), they will know exactly who has guns and ammo and how much they do.
3) If they keep track and limit ammo quantity, nothing will stop them to do the same about gun. So you will only be able to buy 1 rifle, 1 handgun and 1 shotgun. I know some people will find this statement ridiculous, but just look at some European gun laws. I do know French Gun laws pretty well, and they’re limited to own only 12 licensed firearms (which include any type of handgun, anything semi-auto, any guns using .223/5.56, 7.62×38, 5.45, 12.7×99 or 14.5×114 caliber… or anything smaller than 18″ barrel, etc… So a LOT of firearms are in this category, including a small .22LR pistol)
4) And nonetheless, I would love to see real studies that show that someone with 200,000 rounds is more inclined to commit crimes than someone with let’s say 2,000 rounds.
5) But, the easy access on ammo in the US, with no limits, could easily feed terrorist groups, gangs, cartel, etc… and allow them to stock pile enough for a real chaos scenario. We all know criminals are the main responsible for crimes and homicides per firearms. However, I don’t see how efficient an “ammo limit” would be really efficient against criminals… So in the end, it would be another useless law that “outlaws” won’t obey.
6) However, from a pure practical point of view, I do believe it would probably help to have some limits. Why? Because of hoarders that buy all ammo even thought they already have more than they will ever shoot in their lifetime… and it makes the whole market prices to go up and difficult for some to get what you need when you need it.
7) For instance, in France there’s a 12,000 rounds limit (1,000 rounds per firearms per person per year). And I think it’s quite ridiculous, mainly if you shoot quite a lot.
Luckily sport shooters can get refill, and there’s no limit on brass, primers, bullets, etc… There’s only a limit on stored powder at your home for safety reasons, around 4lbs per shooters and (apparently) per household.
So based from this experience, I’d say a 52,000 rounds limit (per shooter per household per year) wouldn’t bother much. It would mean 1,000 rounds per week to shoot… Probably more than enough for most users. As long as it stored in a safe place.
8) Even from a pure financial point of view, 1,000 rounds per week would probably mean around $5,000 per year minimum (if you shoot some caliber around $0.10 per round), and up to $50,000 or $100,000 per year if you’re shooting some some more expensive caliber around $1 or $2 per round.
9) But I don’t see how anyone could keep tracking of ammo without having record a authoritarian government could use against law abiding gun owners. So in the end, for this exact reason I’ll always prefer to not impose any limit. Maybe some educational videos from NRA (or any Pro-Gun Youtube Channels, websites, etc…) to be sure people won’t continue to stock pile ammo once they do reach some quantity. IMHO, it’s surely one of the main reasons why we can’t find ammo…
Just #5. Easy cure. Outlaw purchases over 1000 rounds for terrorists. Then shoot the terrorists. Otherwise leave us alone.
If only that was that easy… If you can make it happen, you’d have my vote!!
This is awfully similar to the powder raids conducted by the British forces out of Boston. Anyone here remember hearing abut the battles of Lexington and Concord?
My ancestors fought the British over this same crap and now the government (modern day equivalent of the Red Coats of 1775) is right back at it again. Of course this is in NJ right, does the 2nd Amendment still apply there?
I think the government should DOLE us as much ammo as we want!
Nope, As much as you have room to store. I only keep about 1000 rounds of each personally. I don’t want to have that much capitol tied up in ammo. Whats disturbing is that this guy was the Victim, and they took his weapons away. What the hell is wrong with Jersey?
I have a limit on ammo based on the amount of money I have and how much the wife can find
Nope. And I don’t know enough about black powder to comment.
My question is…did he get stabbed in the gun room? What the hell were the cops doing there in the first place??
The amount of weapons and ammunition is not a problem and did not pose a threat before. The only problem I see is the large amount of gun powder that should be in proper containers and store in a dry cool place. Unless you are going to sell it or reload an insane amount of ammunition there is no need for such amounts. Maybe the man is a hoarder and just keeps it around for no apparent reason and is not planning to use it, sell it or otherwise get rid of it. If the house catches on fire the gun powder will burn dangerously and if gases cannot escape, posing a problem to nearby structures; there are proper protocols for such large amount of gun powder, at least at the federal level and I am sure at state levels too. There is no reason to confiscate the weapons and they should be returned, same for the ammunition. The police is just taking advantage of an old man and escalating a situation that did not pose any danger in the first place. One gun or a hundred, it makes no difference, the man is entitle to his guns and there was no probable cause of a crime being committed to justify the confiscation of firearms; unsafe storing of large quantities of smokeless powder and black powder is another matter but up to that point there have been no incidents of fire. Just return his weapons and ammo and let the fire department deal with the gun powder issue in an administrative way.
your limit should be as much as the pallet jack can safely move in a 40 hr week.. per gun… per person.
Well, except for .22 LR. But I only support that restriction until I’ve bought my supply of 20K rounds.
the only limits should be as much as you can afford and store properly
Looks inadequate to me.
Only on .22lr – lousy hoarders.
How sad that America has become the land of the free….IF you have a good reason!!!
NO!, NO!, NO limits on ammo, unless were talking 16″ naval gun bagged ammo, then maybe enough for several squirrel hunts.
So, if were gonna place limits on a lot of things, how about wives! not all at once, but over a lifetime, say, 10 wives total. which would mean you can have up to 9 ex wives, unless you didn’t bother with a divorce before you married the next one. Man, that’s a lot of alimony, if most of ’em stayed single after they shit canned your worthless ass!
No money left for ammo! so, better cut the wife limit down a peg, say FIVE! That ought to do it! Still not enough for a good supply of ammo you say, start reloading, If you get good enough at it, you might save enough to take on a couple of girlfriends.
You don’t need more than 3 ex wives for hunting.
How do you use them for hunting, do you have them run out in front of you to point and scare up the birds?
The poll at NY.com is currently 99% for “No” and less than 1% for “Yes” 😀 😀
One question, but can large amounts of ammunition create a fire hazard?
Yes!, if you pull the bullets and pour the powder out of several thousand rounds, and ignite the pile with a match.
What about if you have lots of rounds with the gun powder inside and a fire gets to it?
Then you already have a fire, the idea of a fire hazard is kinda moot. Might get noisy, “pop-pop-pop”, but no hazard to speak of. Gun stores, police, and the military all have stockpiles no individual could ever approach, no problems. While improperly stored fertilizer blew half the town of West, TX off the map a couple years back. Ammunition manufacturing facilities? Not so much.
What difference does that make? why are americans so insistant on being everyones baby sitters? Lets just assume everyone but ourselves are complete idiots and cant be trusted without our input!!
It’s not about baby sitting anyone, it is about making sure such a person isn’t inadvertently a threat to their neighbors by having a major fire hazard.
Thats called babysitting, its not your job to keep an eye on other people, thats why were losing so much of our freedom, “in the interest of public safety”!
Babysitting is a poor word, it is BS in support of increasing government control over our lives. If DHS took possession of over 100 MILLION rounds of centerfire ammo last year, how can large quantities be dangerous? You might want to actually read the thread, it has all been explained 2-3 times.
I’m looking to moving into a new house in the future and am dreading moving all my ammo.
Hell No on ammo control.
You have way too much ammo if your dreading moving it all! better give some of it away. My address and phone number can be had by, oops! my hard drive just crashed!
Is there a legal limit to how many firearms one can own?? Generally no….so why question the amount of ammo?
Stand by for a surprise. Because it is a backdoor method of outlawing guns, those idiots will never notice, we are so SLY! There is no other conceivable purpose for government to even be interested.
The black powder regs are in the comments under the nj.com article. Appears the limits and container type specs are like safetey or building code statutes, which are generally based on some practical rationale, and from a quick scan he didnt seem to be outside limits, at least as to quantity referenced in the article. So I’d guess the typical legal processs would be a citation, and some required time to fix it, like move some to another approved storage location.
The seizure of the other ammo, and guns, according to some protocol, is not explained. I wonder if the local PD will have to justify that in court. Seems like an illegal “taking” of private property, but then IANAL and dont know NJ laws, which appear to be generally illogical and capriciously enforced, unless you are ‘connected’.
Even in New South Wales, Australia, there is no limit in the state’s firearms act for the storage of “safety cartridges”. There are only one real requirement, and that is ammunition must be stored secured and separate from the firearms. Ammunition cans and crates fitted with padlocks are considered acceptable and legal. The only other limit is propellant powder which is 10kg or about 22 lb.
Should there be a limit to how deep your swimming pool can be? After all, babies might be attracted to it and drown in your high-capacity water!
Should there be a limit to the amount of cars you own, how fast they can go, and how much gas they can hold? After all, you might drive into a crowd of people and kill them!
Should there be a limit to how many children you can have? After all, one of them may grow up to be the next Eric or Dylan!
Should there be a limit to how long you can live? After all, you may start questioning Big Brother when you’re old enough to think for yourself!
“..police found the husband’s gun collection and confiscated it in accordance with protocol.” WTF? Doesn’t anyone even question lack of due process anymore?
Many people pointed out, very loudly, that these laws were stupid and counterproductive as they were being passed, and those people were ignored. Each time they facilitate another murder (usually of the woman, I admit), it is pointed out, and ignored, again. The fact that the whole operation is clearly unconstitutional doesn’t seem to slow anyone down.
“Doesn’t anyone even question lack of due process anymore?”
Unfortunately NO! Not often enough. ( COSTs TOO MUCH!) if anyone actually would
try to challenge. Plus the judicial can be as misguided and corrupt as the LEOs.
Nope. Sure, that’s a lot of ammo so friggin’ what? You can still only shoot one round at a time anyway. Maybe if you had a MG to play with then a little more wouldn’t hurt. But the point is the same. This is state robbery, nothing else and I for one would not tolerate it so long as I draw air.
let’s be realistic, unless there is an actual zombie apocalypse or revolution there isn’t a need for that much ammo. that being said, i think we need to be a little responsible with our preparations for dealing with a corrupt government and the undead. and you better believe they’re coming for you….the zombies that is. i built a prep room in my basement and concealed it’s entrance with some book shelves. inside this room are steel cabinets that hold all my ammo cans. this is so not everyone knows they’re there and physically secures them. both from theft(seizure) and from accidental discharge(i can’t think of how that could happen, but i built containment just incase). in this ongoing pushing match over gun rights and gun control i think we should set an example of responsible ownership, not just a “i have a scary amount of guns and ammo and live next to you” attitude. by the way, i for 1 wouldn’t mind having a neighbor with that much ammo, let’s me know that there is someone that’s covering me while i reload when the shtf. good luck explaining that to the liberals.
Absolutely NOT. You should be able to possess all the ammunition you can afford.
Contrary to wild speculations, smokeless powder ammunition presents no significant danger in a fire.
Unless the rounds are chambered, they will ignite (smokeless powder is a combustible) and the bullets will be ejected from the case but there will not be enough pressure behind them to penetrate most barriers. For example, they will not penetrate a firefighter’s turn-out coat, helmet, or faceshield. http://publicsafetyproject.org/blog/2013/02/13/sporting-ammo-in-fire-safe-for-firefighters-if-not-in-chamber-of-firearm/
Yes, there should be a limit on ammo!
Everyone should have at no less than 1000 rnds of each caliber of firearm they own.
Yes. However much the military owns.