I’m sick and tired of people claiming that hollow point rounds are “armor piercing assault bullets.” Even my own mother believes this, drinking the standard gun grabber Kool Aid as she is wont to do. The truth is that they are, in fact, less likely to penetrate a bulletproof vest than their standard round nosed brothers. So, while we were testing out a bullet proof vest from the fine folks at SafeGuard Armor, I decided to grab a couple Federal Hydra-Shok 9mm hollow point rounds and demonstrate exactly how full of fragrant BS that line really is. This is Level II armor, meaning that 9mm is the largest round it’s rated to stop. And it does so very, very well.
Be interesting to see if the same armor stops a solid copper 9mm slug.
Hmmm… A Spitzer? It’s hard to imagine any non-mineral thing apart from a redwood tree stopping a 2850 FPS Spitzer.
I recently shot a 10 year old level II vest and it stopped everything from .22 up through .357 mag. Hollow points and FMJ
I have always found this to be a silly argument. In a self defense situation you want “the right amount” of penetration – not less, not more. FMJ bullets tend to overpenetrate and sail through an attacker, leaving one to two minutes more of attack time while they bleed. And when they sail through, they could potentially hit someone unintentionally, like a family member.
Hollow points are safer in that they are far less likely to overpenetrate and far more likely to put all their energy in the attacker, stopping them. Gun grabbers are all about safety, right?
I said, ‘Well, I don’t know how that happened.’”
Sounds like someone who makes her living crafting words into art has learned when it’s best to STFU.
STFU is very different from what she did. In IL (and presumably other states) she committed Obstruction of Justice, which is a felony, when she lied and said ‘I don’t know what happened’, rather than ‘I would like to exercise my right to privacy’, or ‘talk with my attorney’.
A fun memory from my military days:
A 2nd Louie was briefing us on the new ‘flak vest’ being given to our soldiers. He maintained it would protect us not only from flak, of course, but from small arms fire. I raised my hand and asked if he would put one on and go 100 meters downrange and allow me to shoot him with our standard M16. He was having none of that, and declined my offer quite harshly using adult language. I then asked, “Well, what good is this then if it won’t actually protect us, sir?” He said, “It’s a flak vest, not a bulletproof vest.” I said, “Okay, sir, then would you allow me to toss a frag grenade at you while wearing it?” Needless to say, there was another negative response with adult language.
I still smile when I think of this moment.
You would think Ms. Arnold might have some sympathy for minorities and victimhood, being homosexual and in a civil partnership. Some of the people over at Pink Pistols should have a word.
How does it rate against 45 ACP 230gr JHP?
I would guess worse. Larger surface area and lower velocity than a 9mm.
Do you think that they will ever figure out that balistc vests don’t make you invulnerable? I don’t care that the slug does not penetrate, a .45 ACP slug is dumping 835 J of energy and 4.5 kg*m/s of momentum into your chest.
What we need is more video’s like this and a “myth busted” like video on various gun related myths. Then we need a few friendly news reporters willing to listen.
We have to use all media just like the anti-gun crowd does.
Video makes a difference for low information voters
I even got into an argument with a cop friend of mine over this. He seriously believed that hollow point handgun rounds would penetrate any level of soft armor. For the record I am combat wounded, retired military and wore the full up body armor setup. Plus, we also shot our own soft and hard armor with with everything to see what would happen (off the books armor). So yes, the body armor does work, in the context of pistols are pistols, and rifles are rifles and everything has its limits and purpose.
That’s a hard one. In the dark, I can believe that some water nozzles look like small guns. If they had told him to “drop it”…and it had been a gun…he could have gotten the first shot off. Or, if they had yelled “drop it” and, being drunk, he had turned and said, “Huh?” with the “gun” in his hand…
I’m not defending the police here…just saying I can see circumstances where this could have been a rightous shooting. There are many, many expamles that are NOT rightous to use as an example. Like the guy at Costco in Vegas a couple of years ago. That was SO not a rightous shooting. In that case, yes, the officers should be banned from LEO work forever after that debacle.
But…who decides. That’s the key issue. It has to be taken out of the hands of the local DA’s, because they will always lean toward protecting the local LEO’s.
Sounds fair to me, and even if it’s an honest mistake they don’t lose their employment. They can just do one of the many other jobs an officer can do.
The first money paid in such a suit should come from the officer(s) involved. When they are walking arround in pants made from newspaper, sleeping under park benches, we would have a good start. Second, strip them of their badge. No ifs ands, or buts.
I’d also go for tattooing bad cop no donut on their faces, and sticking them in general population. If we start punishing them, the trigger happy kooks will go elsewhere.
Police are PAID to be in the line of fire. The risk is part of the job.
In this case, the DA who declined the charges whould be the second one made a pauper before any tax dollars or insurance money are handed over.
I have to take back what said …
It isn’t “half”.
There is some good thinking expressed here but, there’s also just enough that isn’t to give comfort to enemy.
Even 9mm ball will bounce off level 2 armor. I know, because we tested it on an interceptor vest with no plates at 7 meters. M855 5.56 went in one side and out the other.
Pay attention, class.
Official Cop Career Plan, 2013.
1. Grow up with uniform fetish.
2. Become a cop.
3. Shoot and kill innocent suspect.
4. Get convicted, serve time in jail.
5. Show no evidence of remorse, only regret over interrupted career.
6. Become Chief of Police.
7. Start making plans to hire more uniform fetishists.
http://5newsonline.com/2013/03/26/officer-convicted-in-shooting-death-becomes-police-chief/
Cops should always be held accountable, but judged by the perception of what a reasonable and trained person would have done under similar circumstances. Shooting the Toytota Tacoma pickup in LA with the ladies delivering newspapers – clearly the wrong vehicle – merits termination. On the other hand, cell phone guns are out there, BB guns have killed people, and super soakers can be filled with gasoline. If you doubt me, use a little google-fu. Police encounter a whole lot of weird sh!t.
Similarly, a civilian / non LEO shooting should also be innocent until proven guilty, or at least heavily dependent upon the reasonable perception of a responsible individual in the same circumstances, and the investigators on scene.
Connecticut native, so I feel bad for my freinds back home.For thoes who carry as well as my brother and sister first responders in Newton who no doubt will have a long road ahead of them.
As far as MY rights. Im comfortable at a state level. Tennessee is pretty decent in thoes regards. Ammo, discouraged. Federal, frustrated but optimistic.
How am I right now? Im on the deck of my 16th floor condo in Destin, Florida looking at the Gulf.
5600 rounds and counting through my first New Frontier lower. I have three of them so far. Hate all you want, call them junk if you will, but I will be buying them for future builds without a second thought about reliability.
Redlegs all the way!
I live in Tejas and still encounter transplants that think loading your own ammunition is “Psycho”, all ARs and AK are fully auto “machine guns”, and hollow points are “Cop Killer Bullets”.
Their motto unfortunatey is, “Guns and anything gun related is just too scary to be legal!”. They have been effectively Holderized, aka brainwashed to think about Guns in a radically different way.
She has a right to believe what she wants. She may not believe in sporting rifles, but when they come to take away her revolver she will care.
To be honest she would probably be easier to have a discussion with than a politician since she is somewhat educated.
Since it’s not illegal for me to bring it to the parking lot, I respectfully submit the chief can go copulate with himself as he has no say in it.
I hope the cop-haters on here figure out that they might actually be the good guys (with a few exceptions).
Expanded background checks will be abused.
First instance of abuse is where the background checks are used to create in illegal national gun registry.
The powers that be… can also lower the bar so that a person with a small misdemeanor for a bar fight back when they were in college is considered a prohibited person. In some states / cities excessive speeding or downloading a lot of music can get you a felony charge. Felonies are no longer restricted to violent crimes. How long before spitting on the sidewalk prohibits you from owning a gun?
Domestic violence is being stretched to include just grabbing someone’s wrist or shoving someone out of your way as you walk out the door. Something as minor as a wrist grab can be used deny a person their Second Amendment Rights. No end to the amount of abuse that background checks will eventually lead to.
In NYC if you have a gun permit, the police randomly call your house and ask your family members if you every display any signs of stress or great anger… and then pick at that. The wrong answers by your family will get your permit revoked.
The purpose of the Second Amendment is to prevent future tyranny.
This is the same government that has around a 10% approval rating, right?
Raised in St Louis, left in 1969, I had 3 guns pulled on me, ( they can make you say yes sir, and no sir), took one, carried it till I left town. So I don’t need this political POS, telling me that downtown St Lo, is “Safe”! A little side note. My older brother and I, were stop one evening by the St. Louis police.They put me in the front seat (??), and talked to my brother, and then reversed the status. When they let us go, my brother pulled up his shirt tail, and showed me a .38 revolver that he took out of the glove box. Never heard anything about it, finally got him to get rid of it. The police back in the 50’s and 60’s carried throw down guns. If they shot some and it was questionable, they used a throw down. It seemed like, it was used mostly on shootings of blacks. HE HAD A GUN !!! ???
Well the eye candy will be missed but as for the show….well it sucked!
Public service announcements and education are all that is needed.
I will no longer confirm nor deny that I own certain firearms or any at all. That being said, my hypothetical experience with the New Agent is identical. Wonderful weapon for it’s intended function.
There are several perfectly good reasons to be cautious about Tresmond, but Robert lists exactly the wrong ones.
1) Yes, he has this story on his FB page. The one for the company, not his personal one. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tresmond-Law/149433465214770?fref=ts
2) I believe the next milestone for his case is April 29th. I think that’s NY’s day to respond? I’m not sure how much noise one should expect from a lawyer who is waiting for the other side to make the next move? I haven’t heard much from NYSRPA (who I think we can all agree is serious) since their initial filing on NY SAFE. I haven’t heard much from SAF (who is about a serious as you can get) since the orals on Kwong v. Bloomberg. Indeed, one of the goofier aspects of Tresmond IMHO was the endless puffery that characterized him.
A compromise is not when rights are infringed halfway. It’s when they are also enhanced. What this bill needs is a strong national carry amendment.
MD stood up to gun violence & now there is none? If there is still violence what did they stand up to….or should I say for? Randy
I am not really familiar with guns but I always thought FMJs were considered armor piercing and hollow points were meant to break up once they entered someones body to cause more internal injuries. Just stuff I remember from reading and movies.
I am considering purchasing a hand gun for self protection after I take all the appropriate classes/courses, practice a lot etc. I stumbled on this site and your column which I enjoyed reading. It is fine to prove a point but Dude, it is not cool to rag on your mom to do it.
I think the handgun bonded ammo is what is considered “armor Piercing” not hollow points. At least thats what I hear from people. Of course bonded ammo just gives you a likes deprepenitration due to the round being bonded with its outside covering. Preventing separation during impact. Its not a guarantee prepenetration just more likely to penetrate deeper. On the other hand what maybe debatable is since bonded ammo retain there weight during penetration you cause say the around is ammo precising when it come in contact with walls, glass, wood and a car because the ammo is not likely to lose its weight due to being bonded and the around and still continue to hit and do damage to whatever you hit passed that barrier. Non bonded ammo will do the same thing however if the nonbonded ammo jacket and lead part separate hitting that barrier the around will do a lot less damage to the target you want to hit.
Just my 2 cents love your website brother
Sean
“Disabled military veteran served 2 tours”
Because of the nature the way ballistic grade Kevlar stops bullets by flattening the bullet. Kevlar can stop hollow points bullets much easier than standard soft point rounds. as for hard body armor, it will stop them with just as much ease, hollow point bullets have less mass. less for those cermanic plates to absorb. as for the fear hollow point bullets increase deadlines of mass shooting’s they dont. hollow point bullets were originally designed to prevent collateral damage buy fragmenting on impact. FMJ rounds would be your better bet they can rip through many people at once.