Bloomington Illinois back the blue
Threats accompanied harsh, profane words and intimidating posturing from anti-police protesters at the recent Bloomington, IL Back the Blue rally. Images by John Boch.

A couple decades ago, police had a lot of credibility in the gun community. When we’d need to get a carry permit, it often would involve police-approved training, and the permit would be issued by a state or local police agency (or some division of one).

Being “into guns” was even a gateway into law enforcement for many people, including myself when I served as a volunteer. In most parts of the country, the local sheriff and sometimes even the police chief was an outspoken advocate for the rights of responsible gun owners.

While people on the political left have historically been far more antagonistic to police and folks on the right have been predominately very supportive, the image and respectability of law enforcement among those on the right is starting to take on water. This is ultimately bad for not only police (who won’t have many friends left in the community if they lose right-leaning gun owners), but for the gun rights movement at large.

In this article, I’m going to give some recent examples of things that hurt the relationship between police and the gun rights movement, and offer some ideas on how to improve this.

constitutional carry states
Twitter

Tuesday’s Anti-Gun Press Conference In Texas

Probably the worst thing in recent memory was the April 13, 2021 press conference in Texas where people in various police leadership positions spoke out against Constitutional Carry. At the state capitol, the Dallas police chief, other chiefs, and some guests explained their opposition to permitless carry in Texas, trotting out the usual “blood will run in the streets” talking points, when none of the at least 16 states that have passed permitless carry have had any of the problems they predict.

While the police chiefs involved mostly came from cities with Democratic Party mayors and city councils (who appoint the chiefs), gun owners are getting tired of seeing the same lies repeated year after year about how constitutional carry will harm communities. States like Alaska, Arizona, and many others have been constitutional carry states for years, without the death and destruction these oath-breaking chiefs predict. Even academic studies bear out that there aren’t any negative public safety effects.

When invited to “back the blue” after seeing “the blue” try to destroy their rights, many gun owners on social media are giving the same response the elderly time-traveling Captain America did:

Biden Putting a Waco Man In Charge of BATFE

I’m not going to go into great detail, as The Truth About Guns already covered this, but Biden’s BATFE nominee is absolute garbage.

Not only was he involved in the controversial mass death at Waco in 1993 (dozens of women and children were burnt to death), but he has since been caught lying about the incident. There are pictures on the internet of him proudly posing with his rifle next to the burnt bodies of children.

David Chipman
Biden’s ATF Director nominee David Chipman posing in the ashes of the Branch Davidians’ compound in Waco.

The relationship between the ATF and gun owners has never been stellar, but if you ask around you’ll find that most gun shop owners and others in the industry have pretty darn good working relationships with their local agents. Shoving someone as awful as David Chipman down the industry’s throat is a great way to sour and destroy what progress has been made on both sides of this.

Recent Uses of Force Against Gun Owners and Others

Up to this point, you could reasonably tie the things straining gun owner-police relationships to left-leaning politicians. Police chiefs are political appointees often appointed by Democratic Party mayors, and I don’t think I have to explain who Joe Biden is.

However, police misconduct at the “boots on the ground” level is also starting to sour the relationship, and that behavior falls squarely on LEOs themselves.

Here are some recent examples:

In Virginia, police officers assaulted and pepper-sprayed an Army officer, after giving him conflicting commands and confusing him. The few willing to defend this misconduct try to claim that the lieutenant had a gun, but that’s not illegal in Virginia and the police couldn’t have known that when they started assaulting the Army officer unless they had X-ray vision. The police officer was fired, but the public relations damage is done.

There’s also the recent killing of a man by a police officer who mistook her gun for a taser. At best, this was extreme ineptitude, and at worst this was a lame way to attempt to evade responsibility for murder. Assuming it was a mistake, we are seeing a lot of mistakes and “mistakes.” The 2019 Miramar shootout shows us that police have no qualms about using their fellow citizens’ vehicles for cover (at least one man died due to this). The sketchy killings of Duncan Lemp, Daniel Shaver, Breonna Taylor, and Ashli Babbitt leave us wondering whether the police are too incompetent to be carrying guns or are intentionally participating in extrajudicial killings that go unpunished. Neither conclusion is acceptable.

We May Actually Need Some Police Reforms

While most of us here wouldn’t want to “defund the police,” it’s becoming clear that there are issues we can’t ignore. The politicization of policing, as we saw in Texas and in Biden’s ATF nominee, can be quite dangerous. That needs to be addressed. Nobody should be working in policing who clearly can’t be impartial. If an agency like the ATF can’t be reformed, complete elimination (through lawful legislative processes, of course) should be considered a reasonable option.

At the same time, police need to fix the problem of misconduct on the ground, too. Attacking gun owners, doing stupid things that get innocent people and petty criminals killed, and the possibility that intentional extrajudicial killings occur are all unacceptable. Whether these things are happening intentionally or due to negligence, it still falls squarely on the people and the departments involved, and they bear responsibility for fixing their training and their cultures.

Maybe gun owners have been too kind to police, and have “backed the blue” until we’ve become enablers instead of friends. While most of us certainly don’t want to get rid of policing, it’s clear that changes need to be made. Gun owners should be among those calling for rational reforms.

 

165 COMMENTS

  1. One correction–there are 20 states that have some form of permitless or Constitutional Carry. The map the author used is a year and a half old and the current administration has only quickened the pace at which the individual states are asserting their sovereignty in many areas.

    • Newshawk,

      The author of this article was illustrating that states which have had constitutional carry for several years have not experienced “blood in the streets” predictions. States which just achieved constitutional carry status in the last few days or months do not have enough elapsed time to support or detract from “blood in the streets” predictions.

      As a result, the author correctly referred only to states which have had enough elapsed time to support or detract from predictions — and a map of states with constitutional carry in 2019 is thus totally appropriate.

      • That’s one way to look at it. However, the horrified predictions that blood will start running in ichorous cascades into the storm drains do not include a waiting period, or some interval before the blood-surfing begins; The sanguine tide, naturally, should begin promptly at the stroke of Midnight on the day that the withdrawal of restrictions takes effect, when all of the pent-up gun-driven homicidal tendencies that have been held at bay by the Power of The Law are instantly let loose upon the helpless citizenry of once-peaceful communities. One need only to refer to any of the ‘Purge’ films to provide examples of what happens when such lawlessness is unleashed; It doesn’t take months, but only mere moments before the Tsunamis of gore should begin their awful effusion. You know, real wrath-of-God type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes…The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – MASS HYSTERIA!

        Right?

        • “…running in ichorous cascades…”

          “A watery, acrid discharge from a wound or ulcer.”

          Thanks for a (new-to-me) word to hurl in Leftist scum faces!

          Since a “wound or ulcer” is an apt description of what they are doing to this great nation… 🙁

          (“Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together –” Weird, before my cat died, she lived harmoniously with the neurotic dog that shares this dwelling. To the point where thy were found frequently together, snoozing contentedly, keeping each other warm… 😉 )

        • IMHO, John in AK now holds the records for most erudite and most hilarious post ever in TTAG. Well done, sir.

  2. Salient and well-written article.

    I would amend that to say we need reform in a lot of areas of our society, including public ̶i̶n̶d̶o̶c̶t̶r̶i̶n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶c̶e̶n̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ schools, prisons, tort and healthcare (let’s start that one by breaking up the monopolistic insurance/big pharma kabals).

    I think one area to look at is we have too many extraneous laws, and thus too many reasons to pull someone over or give them guff, thus increasing provocative and adversarial encounters by many orders of magnitude.

    We need a de-legislative branch. I’m not talking about the Supreme Court who can pick and choose what cases to hear and which ones to ignore (at will). I mean a branch that doesn’t need court cases to look at how laws hold up. But rather one that actively looks to strike down unconstitutional laws that Congress dreams up.

    But I realize that’s very likely a pipe-dream. This experiment in our republic is fraying at the seams and I fear some form of Balkanization is at hand in the not-too-distant future, as there are too many different people here who want to be governed very differently (or not at all).

    • Don’t fear Balkanization. When a limb is gangrenous or a mass is cancerous, you remove it before the healthy body dies. Letting the blue states drag the rest of us to hell is stupid and suicidal.

    • Along those lines; my personal pipe-dream involves a constitutional amendment that would require the repeal of ten existing laws to institute a new law.

      It would probably take several generations, but eventually legislators might have to weigh the value of a new encroachment on liberty, against what they had to give up.

    • I fear some form of Balkanization is at hand

      Instead of fearing it I pray for a national divorce.
      The sooner the better.
      Amicable would be great but if not, so be it.

      • My gramps predicted civil war over 40 years ago… looks like he’s right. At this point, it’s inevitable.

        We need a PURGE. Remove all leftists! PINOCHET STYLE

        • “We need a PURGE. Remove all leftists! PINOCHET STYLE”

          I’m all for a GoFundMe to buy or lease a ‘Hind’ attack helicopter for (Die, Commie Scum) PwrSerge to get the ball rolling… 😉

      • The Libertarians Liberals and the Left have always loved divorce. I say lets give it to them.
        And it doesn’t have to be violent. Just go away in peace. And enjoy your degeneracy. Those of us who want law and order can have it. And you don’t need the police to have that.

  3. Police Are Losing Credibility in the Gun World

    Losing?… With the exception of a few outspoken County Sherriff’s in the South, cops have NO credibility with gun people..

    • Yep. Not losing, just lost. I know whose side they’re all going to be on if push comes to shove, and it sure as hell isn’t going to be mine.

    • “This is ultimately bad for not only police (who won’t have many friends left in the community if they lose right-leaning gun owners), but for the gun rights movement at large.”
      The police are literally the only threat to the gun rights movement. Not Joe Biden, not Beto, not Gabby Giffords, not David Hogg. No one other than the boots on the ground that turn stupid politicians ideas into tyrannical oppression is a threat to your gun rights.

      • They are not just a threat to gun rights, they have been a threat to all of our constitutional rights for decades. What was once called Peace Officers are now called Law Enforcement, and for good reason; they no longer keep the peace, but instead enforce any and all laws passed, irrespective of constitutionality. They do not work for the people, they work for their government leaders. They take an oath, but ignore that oath just like their bureaucrap handlers.

    • I don’t know who the author “Jennifer” might be but I’ll guess she showed up the day before yesterday.

      The respect for the POPO hit a low during Barry’s reign as he/PD went all military peaking with mass transfers of MRAPs to local PD.

      • It’s been dismaying to see how local law enforcement, over the past few decades, have become more and more enamored of of a militarized posture against the very citizens they are supposed to protect and serve. Whether its MRAPs and body armor, or calling everyone “civilians,” or the standoffish (sometimes truly hostile) “us vs. them, everyone is a threat” attitude, police are doing themselves no favors with the general public, including those of us who are generally inclined to support them.

        I know a lot of really nice cops – wonderful people – but even the nicest are being trained to treat every interaction with every person they encounter as an intensely dangerous moment of personal threat. “Officer safety” is turning into “officer tough guy” and “officer shut up and do what I say.” I’m not persuaded this is actually making anyone, police included, very much safer at all.

        • You JUST nailed it – and I can confirm from my former inside perspective – IT’S ALL ABOUT THE TRAINING. Jackboots aren’t born, they’re made. It starts with a police board handpicking those they believe are the more authoritarian-leaning, psychologically preferred candidates and then drilling the gestapo mentality into them. I hated my job and my bosses in turn hated me because I was too smart, too unindoctrinable, too freedom-loving to be turned into a JBT.

          Add to that the MSM hate machine spewing their venom on cops, and the fact that a LOT of cops are former military, and the fact that blue shitholes (places where the general population’s first instinct is to violently resist cops the instant they are confronted) are full of natural-bred cop lefty cop-haters, add it all up and there’s your us-versus-them, thin blue line against the mob, cop/civilian mentality.

          Time plus exposure equals influence. The job hardens cops, and not in good ways. If you’re a “good cop”, you’re impelled to get out when you can’t take it anymore, one way or another. Those who stay in are in a lot of cases the ones who need to be out. Or the ones who are so psychologically conditioned to believe they need that cop pension (BAHAHAHA!!!) that they stay in and become a lifer… tolerating policies and commands that a true American would refuse to carry out.

          Only right-thinking constitutionalist Sheriffs have any sway in this trend toward a United Police States of Amerika!

        • Couldn’t agree more. Cops under 40 (in my experience) have two speeds: off and full tilt boogie. They immediately escalate any situation in a negative way. Example: a month or so ago, a young girl hit me from behind at a red light. Totaled her car, not a scratch on my F-250. I thought it was a minor fender-bender that wouldn’t even necessitate cops, but she actually got stuck UNDER my truck, and I pulled onto the shoulder dragging her with me. Regardless, a youngish cop saw the whole thing, knew she hit me, etc. He gets out of the car screaming and yelling and immediately takes a minor situation into a stress level it didn’t need to be. The girl’s crying, my dog is whining, I tell the cop to just chill the F out. Eventually he does calm down, but his initial entrance into the situation was like active shooter level.
          That’s one example, but in general cops are not supporting the people who support them. Too many times last summer we saw them let BLM and Antifag do as they would, insult them, spit on them, throw shit at them, and do nothing, and then turn around and arrest and detain the people who are ostensibly supporting them. That doesn’t work for me. It’s not even equal. That dynamic, combined with the numerous incidents showing them to be twitchy, trigger happy stormtroopers, has changed the way I look at cops. They all need a come to Jesus.

    • Please do not conflate city police chiefs with sheriffs.
      Police chiefs are hand picked by the mayor/city council.
      Sheriffs are ELECTED and un-elected.

      • In Indiana, we have both county Sheriffs and town Marshals who can be elected and voted out. It probably has a bit to do with Indiana’s relative lack of Jackbooted Thuggery, but our Sheriffs have spines, and the ultimate authority in matters of upholding the laws rests with the Sheriff. Ours know that they have the ABSOLUTE POWER to bar even federal agents on direct orders from Joe Biden or any other man called President. This is why educating your Sheriff is so vital, and why if your Sheriff doesn’t support or agree with the mission statement of CSPOA, that Sheriff MUST be removed in the next election!!

        And YES, police chiefs & other APPOINTED CLEOs are ALL political HACKS.

      • But the sheriffs emulate the voter base, which is the same voter base that elects the mayor/city council and their appointed police chiefs. Leftist voters = leftist sheriffs, mayors, police chiefs. And just because a sheriff is outspoken on ONE subject, like gun rights, doesn’t mean he supports ALL of our constitutional rights.

    • In all fairness, even Upstate New York, Northern California and counties outside of Boston, Massachusetts are, for all practical purposes, ‘shall-issue’ for concealed carry…

      • Upstate NY kind of is. It depends on the county. However, state law is so convoluted that “shall issue” in the best of NY counties still requires character witness testimonials, a law enforcement interview, a written explanation of why a Pistol is “needed,” an expensive and lengthy application, fingerprints, permission from a judge, approval to actually purchase a handgun, etc. etc. It’s really not shall issue at all… in the best places, it’s more of a quiet willingness to make this obnoxious process go as smoothly as possible given the circumstances, and it still usually takes six months.

        • 7-9 months more recently but yes we are a weak shall issue for upstate (unless your judge sucks)

    • I back police as far as they back our constitutional rights. If I have to choose between my God given liberties or police protection I’ll choose my liberty. I see the value of paying a few people to keep watch and be on standby for various emergencies but every able bodied adult should be willing and somewhat prepared to respond to emergencies. The thin blue line mentality that police are the only ones who can or should respond to violent criminals is not only pathetic but dangerous to a free people.

  4. Too many gun owners would “back the blue” until the blue burns their house down with totally not flammable tear gas for the crime of owning scary guns. The police exist to enforce the will of the elites – nothing more. The faster the gun community cuts ties with the state’s two-legged attack dogs, the faster we get our rights back.

    • “Too many gun owners would “back the blue” until the blue burns their house down…”

      Probably because Conservatives tend to see the good in people, until proven otherwise…

  5. Police are only the “Good Guys” in a free society that respects the rights of their fellow citizens. Those days are long over. People will say, “If I was alive when Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Po Pot was in-charge I would resist and rebel, refuse to obey orders, etc.” This is a lie and the vast majority of people and police comply, obey and tyranny succeeds. How many Police officers have been suspended or lost their jobs because they refuse to issue Covid-19 tickets, close business and arrest people for not wearing a mask, etc. The answer is Likely ZERO. Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and China had police too, were they the “Good Guys”. Police carry out the will of the state, nothing more.

    • Defund the legislature. Every single law, regulation, and ordinance they pass is ultimately backed up by a man with a badge and a gun. These clowns cook their slop and then hand it off to the police and expect them to serve it.

    • I would add the STASI in East Germany. I never miss an opportunity to remind people that commies were as evil as nazis. But I agree with everything you said. They always have the excuse of “following orders” too, such as when some peaceful citizen gets assaulted by some BLM and Antifa and the cops just watch from a distance. But if you use great force to defend yourself they will somehow intervene, go figure.

    • Allowing government workers to unionize under JFK, was the beginning of the end of law enforcement. And any work done by a unionized governement worker. They all became little tyrants.

    • “This is a lie and the vast majority of people and police comply, obey and tyranny succeeds.”

      Like New York state, where compliance with ‘assault weapon bans’ is roughly 10 percent of the total number of AR-platform firearms believed to be in the state?

      Let that sink in a moment – An estimated 90 percent of New York state residents with those type firearms said ‘Fvck you, state law, I will NOT comply”. Since breaking that law is a felony offense, those folks are proving to have a actual spine. They have ‘skin in the game’.

      I don’t think things are *quite* as bad as you believe. It’s a not good, but a far less dire situation…

      • “I don’t think things are *quite* as bad as you believe. It’s a(sic) not good, but a far less dire situation…”
        You, Geoff, keep believing that, but don’t whine when you find it’s not true.

        By the way, your assault weapon analogy is garbage. It’s much the same as the bump stock issue. Hiding a weapon or bump stock until a law is challenged and proven to be unconstitutional and then overturned, isn’t the same as complying to other issues. For instance, the Supreme Court, in 1955, established that state mandated Driver’s Licenses for individuals NOT conducting commerce, are unconstitutional. How many people (that drive) do you know that DON’T have a Driver’s License? https://wearechange.org/u-s-supreme-court-says-no-license-necessary-to-drive-automobile-on-public-highwaysstreets/ Or how about the federal income tax? The Supreme Court, prior to 1913, established that the income tax is unconstitutional, yet how many people do you know that refuse to file an income tax form. And by the way, there is NO law requiring filing of income tax and the IRS codes state that it is “VOLUNTARY” – that goes for state also!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98a5tBBDjlY&t=15s

  6. I would only add Philando Castile to the roster of firearm carriers killed by police. It was an especially grievous case where Philando informed the officer he was armed, the officer panicked, and shot him as a result. Darned if you do, darned if you don’t? It was a huge black eye for the NRA since they said nothing about it.

    • I remember that and you’re right, the NRA did nothing. Guess they were too busy piling up dues so the could spend it on yachts and hookers and not defending us.

    • That case was a bit more complicated since Castille was under the influence of Marijuana, while driving and should have not reached for anything when the cop didn’t command him to move. Not saying the cop didn’t make mistakes, but I saw no reason why the NRA should have said anything.

  7. There are many aspects to the problems of policing in this day and age, one of which, as mentioned, is that chiefs are appointed by Democratic majority city councils. Moreover, at least here in California, Democratic lawmakers, in order to get police union backing of further gun control measures, give officers (of every stripe and department) carve outs from the laws that apply to the rest of us, carve outs that exacerbate the perception of many police officers that they are “special” and that the rules do not apply to them.

    Further compounding the issues are the perception (which may not accord with reality) that police officers are these days more likely to shoot first and ask questions later, a perception that decreases police credibility. Adding to it is that there are two many officers who aggravate a circumstance by insisting–with violence if necessary–that everyone “respect ma autoritay.” That certainly rubs the wrong way. (I am of course generalizing–I have had both good and bad incidents with the police.) The end result is that the minority communities hate and fear the police, making policing difficult if not impossible.

    • We have the same problems over here in Massachusetts. We have these carve outs in bad law that exempt cops from specific laws and that’s how they get police buy in.

    • “… is that chiefs are appointed by Democratic majority city councils.”

      Yeah, but –

      Those areas are so heavily tilted Leftist, even if a Conservative gets on the ballot, they rarely (if ever) win those races.

      That encapsulates the difference in the beliefs of Leftists compared to Conservatives.

      Leftists are brainwashed, er, ‘programmed’ to trust the decisions government make, while the Right tends to be skeptical and want accountability. Hand-holding, vs. self-sufficiency.

      Those competing philosophies cannot live together in harmony. Leftists can’t help themselves – Leftism must the eliminate the competition, for their own survival. This is happening right now, with the backing of the internet companies. Ganging up and silencing the opposition with claims of ‘racism’. Gun control is a major part of that survival. Under no condition should he ‘little people’ be allowed the effective tools to challenge that authority.

      And that’s how actual Fascism begins, not the recent ‘manufactured’ variety…

  8. “Nobody should be working in policing who clearly can’t be impartial.”

    Totally agree and I would also add “Nobody should be working in policing who clearly doesn’t understand civil rights”. How many more police ‘fishing expeditions’ on the side of the road or via 4AM home invasions must we continue to endure?

    At this point I am all teed up and ready to vote by referendum if necessary to remove qualified immunity from not just police but all federal officers and all politicians. Any violation of civil rights should justify lawsuits up to and including the supreme court if necessary.

    • Lawsuits? Why not jail-time?

      Deprivation of one’s Liberty and Rights is a crime (Section 242 of U.S. Title 18).

    • The problem is overly broad qualified immunity. If you are performing a no knock road and you get the wrong house and someone dies are a result, you should probably not be able to hide behind the “we were just doing our job” excuse. That is incompetence, plain an simple.

      The idea of qualified immunity was you can’t sue a police officer if he was acting lawfully in the line of duty. Now it has morphed into a did they believe they were acting lawfully. Or were they just acting in the line of duty. No matter how egregious their behavior (even in a how do you think you were acting lawfully?) they are usually shielded.

      One big way to get police reform it to shift costs. In the case of Philando Castile, The city of Saint Anthony shifted the contract so that financial liability falls on the served community. Guess who changed police providers?

      Also, most police department are absurdly small. The St. Anthony Police Department was 23 officers. The average size is 25 or less. While I know that most people here won’t want to see centralized, state run organizations, this can’t be efficient. Why isn’t there a state police? With every city having a scatter shot of training, equipment, and standards it is no wonder policing can be slipshod.

      • I can think of a few countries that have a state police and it isn’t any better, France being one of them. They have better SWAT units (RAID, GIGN) and far more efficient riot control units, but that’s about it.

      • Where isn’t there a state police? Every state where I’ve ever lived (or driven through) has state police. They tend to be the smartest, best-trained, fittest, and most professional of all the cops.

        The real question is why many states limit their best officers to roadside regulatory administrivia, while leaving real crimes to the “slipshod scatter shots” you mentioned.

    • “At this point I am all teed up and ready to vote by referendum if necessary to remove qualified immunity from not just police but all federal officers and all politicians.”

      We’re seeing the first small steps in that direction. From Wikipedia –

      “Colorado, Connecticut, New Mexico, and New York City have either ended qualified immunity altogether or limited its application in court cases.”

      It’s finally beginning…

  9. “This experiment in our republic is fraying at the seams and I fear some form of Balkanization is at hand in the not-too-distant future, as there are too many different people here who want to be governed very differently (or not at all).”

    That day may be coming sooner than some folks (here) believe.

    One grab for the brass ring (that’s an old saying, and I’m fully aware of the difference between the metaphorical brass ring and the Tolkien “One True Ring”) and the dominoes may begin to fall, in ways no one could have expected.

    Anarchy has a way of doing that…

    • There is no equivalent to the One Ring in reality…but political power has much the same effect on those who would wield it, which is why at some point the Left *will* make that fateful lunge for the brass ring.

      Tolkien’s One Ring is Lord Acton’s “power corrupts” adage in purified form. I have no doubt that the evil politicians in our rotten capitol started off intending to govern morally and still fully believe they’re doing what’s best for everyone, just like the fools in Middle-Earth who ended up as Nazgul. But instead of Ringwraiths, we just get corruption, chaos, and mass murder.

      • “evil politicians in our rotten capitol”
        Every time I think of DC, Obi-Wan’s line about Mos Eisley comes to mind: A hive of scum and villainy. Pretty much sums up DC.

      • “There is no equivalent to the One Ring in reality…”

        Oh yes, there most certainty is –

        Those who run the internet companies with their policies of silencing free speech.

        Please, prove me wrong, ‘change my mind”… 🙂

  10. One of the biggest issues is that all the politicians that push gun laws and write new restrictions ALWAY write in a carve out for not only active officers but FORMER Police officers also…

    ever wonder WHY they even allow former officers to skirt these rules? so officers who are looking at the day they leave, unions and retired cops dont fight the bill. They want their silence at a minimum if not support.

    Its the “I got mine” syndrome. If officers had to follow ALL the same rules off duty and when they leave the force, they would fight these bills.

    Want to stop bad bills… Stop allowing cops to be excluded from them.

    • Seems like I remember ” Congress shall make no laws excepting themselves “. These carve outs have never been challenged as far as I know.

      • “These carve outs have never been challenged as far as I know.”

        This is something we need to aggressively address.

        Perhaps when they are forced to live like the ‘little people’, we might change a few of their minds. 🙂

        Alinsky’s ‘Rules For Radicals’ ‘- “Force the enemy to live by their own rules.”… 🙂

  11. I’m pro-police, coming from a cop family but there is a definite lack of adequate training and it appears that the physiological test standards need to be tightened. There’s far too many “I have a badge so I can do what I want” types in uniform these days and the standards for firearms training need updating as most of today’s recruits are licky they can tell one end of a gun from the other.

    • Training costs money. Politicians catch hell about high taxes from their constituents and would rather spend the tax money they do receive on feel good projects that do no good instead of on training that would make better police officers. The mayor and city council would not be receptive to a request from the police chief for a budget increase to pay for a monthly box of practice ammunition for each of his officers.

      A legitimate problem for cops is that they get the dirty job of enforcing bullshit laws enacted by politicians. Remember Eric Garner who died resisting arrest by NYC police for selling individual, untaxed cigarettes on the street without a business license. Cops caught hell for that but no one criticized politicians for enacting a tax structure that made selling them profitable. The critics would prefer that police ignore people like Garner or, at most, write them tickets they could ignore with impunity. The same critics have no problem collecting taxes from the merchants who complained about Garner because he was costing them business.

      • “they get the dirty job of enforcing bullshit laws”

        “Get”? Were they:

        A, Conscripted?

        B, Sworn in before NYC became the nation’s epicenter of unconstitutional laws (e.g. Sullivan Act 1910)?

        C, Chose not to take any other job, including policing in moderate upstate areas or free rural PA, but instead dedicated their lives to enforcing the most “bullshit laws” in the US?

  12. There’s more going on than just gun rights, etc. The left (as noted recently) intends to pack the Supreme Court. Which means the Constitution itself (including the Bill of Rights) is under serious attack. If they succeed you can kiss the “rule of law” and any semblance of rational legislation goodbye. It’s almost that bad now. As for the specific issue of the 2A, I quit paying any attention to gun laws decades ago.

  13. I have a Masters’ degree in education and taught for a number of years. About 20 years ago I went through weekend police officer training in order to become a Marine Patrol Officer for one of the New England states.

    A lot of material was crammed into about 12 weekends. I thought it was moving too quickly.

    One day we were instructed on how to do the “Georgia State Police Take-down,” or something like that. The instructor showed it to us once. I mentioned getting together to practice some of the techniques we had been shown.

    The training officer looked at me and said:

    “Practice??!!,” like I had 3 heads. Heaven forbid we actually try it out.

    At the end of the course we were asked for feedback. A “land cop” said it had been the “best training I’ve ever had.” I was shocked.

    To me, as a former teacher, it seemed more like a demonstration or example of what it would be like to actually attend a police training school in order to become a sworn peace officer. It seem like a far cry from the real thing.

    I hope things have improved since then. I also hope that particular state was not typical.
    Otherwise, it’s no wonder so many mistakes and poor decisions are made.

    • Steve…. I’ve seen the same thing in safety training. They seem to think that presenting a topic is the same thing as teaching. Many years ago I was ” taught ” to climb poles. I was showed how to put on the climbers correctly, told not to “hug” the pole so now climb.

    • Naw its definitely pretty shitty in most places/jurisdictions.

      I remember training for the Federal Bureau of Prisons being some absolute joke. Its two weeks, yes two, at Glynco. Don’t worry theres an additional two weeks (of power points) when you started at your institution. Of the many issues with it, the self defense training was truly lack luster. I mean I’ve personally seen women’s self-defense classes that were more involved. When being given a demonstration on applying cuffs, they showed us a video and had us do it on each other once. This was of course the proper application of cuffs for a compliant inmate. I asked about restraining and placing them on combative inmates. The answer was, “just call for more staff and once they get there put them on anyway you can”. As for actually practicing this, there was none. Zero scenario’s, roleplays, or practices restraining and cuffing a combative inmate. Matter of fact, all the self-defense training was lackluster demonstrations with half-speed practice on your partner, who stood stock-still and allowed you to perform the action in question. A joke. I was glad to get out of that job and hoped it was just the BOP, but the training standards of the next agency I went to was pretty unimpressive as well. If anyone wants a good read that details the administrative, training, and procedural problems for most LEO and FED LEO stuff, read “Unsecure Skies” by Clay Biles. The problems he outlines are basically endemic to Fed Law Enforcement.

    • I’ve seen the same thing in firearms courses too. I’m a college professor, and I’m amazed at how shallow a lot of these courses are, and how little they require students to really learn or internalize.

      Partially, this is a side effect of disdain: mandated training for constitutionally guaranteed rights just rubs many instructors the wrong way, not without reason, and so some courses become a perfunctory exercise in getting finished quickly and teaching to a test. It’s probably also a lack of appreciation for what really good teaching can do – teaching is both a science and an art, and not everyone is good at it (looking at you, certain colleagues who shall remain nameless). It’s also not as easy as a lot of people think to make complex material interesting, understandable, and memorable long term.

      Then again, I have taken some courses that are really well done, and I’ve been extremely impressed with how thoughtfully the instructors put together and present the material. It depends a lot on the individual instructor what kind of course you wind up getting.

  14. You need to use some other map to mark Hawaii as no issue, since there is no record of them having issued a single permit in the last 20 plus years.

  15. Police chiefs are notoriously political… and the toe the line of their political masters who appointed them. In other words, they’re not real cops. And if they ever were real cops, they lost sight of things once they got into senior administration more often than not.

    As for “abuse”… there are bad cops just like there are bad gun owners. But I’ve never found a better group of good people than gun owners – and that includes cops who are firearm aficionados.

    Yes, cops make mistakes. And there are plenty of people ready to criticize them when cops screw up. Bodycams make for accountability both directions.

    Once again, Jennifer brings a very left-leaning viewpoint to TTAG. I’m still not sold on welcoming it here.

    • cuss it with friends or folks at my church. Right now the Chiraq “news” just released a video of a cop killing a 13 year old mexican boy who was out at 2AM shooting a gun. One would think to ask mamacita “why did yer gangbanger wannabe kid have a gat/run the streets” but somehow it ain’t asked. I’ve also known a multiple # of cop’s the last 50 years. US vs THEM amigos. I don’t see a big riot. A lot of the same spanglish are illegal…

    • Only boomer fudds like you and leftists like the taste of the state’s boot. Her view point isn’t leftist in this case, as she’s not only whining about race. She’s defending liberty. She brought up the valid points. You guys and leftists are both pro big govt, you just want it to be your brand of big govt with your boys at the helm.

      • Neither a fudd, boomer, or leftist, but I am dead set against the leftist viewpoint of Sensiba. The constant attacks on and hamstringing of law enforcement has now caused the largest increase in the murder rate in three decades.
        Guess what criminals don’t behave, flee, resist arrest, and are then on occasion shot by the police. I do not and will never weep for them this is Darwinism.

    • Let me ask you, Deplorable – who has been enforcing the lockdowns? Who has been making sure you wear your mask in public? Who has been carrying out red-flag orders on gun owners who committed no crimes? Who will ensure that Joe Biden’s gun bans get enforced when his handlers ram them through? If you think it’s “left wing” to oppose these things then your reasoning is utterly FUBAR.

      • A deputy sheriff pointed out that he does not have the authority to enforce federal laws. If he sees a violation he thinks should be prosecuted, he has to find a federal officer to make the arrest and file the charge.

        The leftists’ sanctuaries for illegal aliens are coming back to bite them in the form of gun rights sanctuaries. According to the deputy, my county’s sheriff will not assist federal agents in enforcing federal gun laws. Marijuana legalization at the state level, but not federal, is another example.

  16. Police unions could be powerful. They could refuse to enforce illegal orders, they could refuse to enforce unconstitutional laws, they could militate against chief’s that politicize their departments. But they do not. The unions do not stand against stand-down orders that allow mobs to riot, loot, and burn. They do not organize their members to demand and obtain training, they remain silent when their own are fired and tried in the media. The police can be their own worst enemies.

    That being said, I have met some good cops, here in Allentown. Smart, kind, generous. I have donated some expensive exercise equipment to our local PD, and I donate to the local PAL.

    The police can do more to reform themselves; their unions can be the catalyst and mechanism. Doing so will save lives, blue and civilian.

  17. It seems important to point out that many of the deaths involving police perhaps could have been avoided had the suspect merely complied with police commands. At the time of questioning or detention is not the time to be argumentative and aggressive. Being calm is not easy but there is median between calm and physical aggression that can be maintained. It seems that many do not value their life and think they can somehow out maneuver a policeman and escape. In short, they gamble with their lives and when they lose, it is the policeman’s fault. The author does not seem to get this. If the author is going to assign fault, then assign fault to all parties.

    • Might also help if the victims would stop holding guns to women’s heads while robbing and choking them.

      • Look, if you remove an enterprising young Black entrepreneur’s sole means of support like that, you will merely drive him to a life of crime. He might even be forced to go into politics.

        Have some compassion.

  18. I’m not sure if anyone around here hasn’t figured this out yet, but the whole motive behind ‘defund the police’ is to replace state and local cops with federal agents, the idea of which should have every non-communist pooping their pants. I personally believe we have too many bored cops on the streets with nothing better to do with their time (most days) than to set up speed traps or look for cars still parked on the Tuesday side of the street at 9:30 on Wednesday. But this is NOT the time to give the Democrats any perception of moral authority on this.

    • For sure, defund the police and bring in the army. I believe the “powers that be” are behind the defunding of police.

    • That’s not all of it. The defund-the-police people generally call for redirecting all that money to “the community” — which means giving it to leftist organizations at the state and local organizations that will police…or not…on a “social justice” basis.

      It’s a massive grift and a power play all wrapped up in one, intended to remake the entire concept of policing in the left’s own totalitarian, racist image.

    • “…the whole motive behind ‘defund the police’ is to replace state and local cops with federal agents,…”

      Wasn’t it Obama who stated in a speech he wanted a civilian force “As well-funded as the police’?

      Oh, yes, the Leftists love them some Brownshirts under their total control…

  19. Hey, I’m a gun guy and I totally back the arrogant, stupid and poorly trained wannabe gestapo agents all the way! Sure, they have a low IQ and the easy-going personality of a snapping turtle on steroids. Being a cop is a hard job and the thick-necked bullet-headed crushers just aren’t up for it. But it’s totally not their fault.

  20. Should you get pulled over don’t stop until you have witnesses around. First, you don’t know if the officer is legit or not. Second, witnesses can be worth their weight in gold. Third, let your circle know that if you are missing or found dead to place the police on the suspect list. Because chances are good if it were anyone other than the police who tried to stop you they would be dead.

    • Or, first, don’t drive in a fashion that will get you pulled over and put into any questionable situations. 20 years of driving and I haven’t been pulled over once!

    • Debbie, not stopping will get you an eluding an officer charge. I’m not quite sure but I think that’s a felony. Your advice is good but I think it might get you shot or in jail.
      When the red and blues light up , slam on the brakes, put both hands out the window, palms toward the cops and wait for them to do their thing. Yes Sir, No Sir, arguing, or my rights this and that just pisses them off.
      Every cop thinks everything you say is a lie anyway( overheard them say so on tach3, when scanners worked). The best advice a cop ever gave me is “You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and “will” be used “against you” .

      • not stopping will get you an eluding an officer charge. I’m not quite sure but I think that’s a felony.

        I believe the law says Pull to the right immediately when you can SAFELY do so… Pretty much a judgement call, put on your 4-ways, turn on your interior light (if at night) and slow down… Then proceed to an area that you feel is safe…

        • SAFELY would be what the black LT in Virginia DID.

          And he would have been fine if he had complied after he was safely off the highway…

  21. And now on a lighter note…. Beijing Biden and Komrad Blinken try to start WWIII…

    The United States is officially under a state of “National Emergency.” No, His Wisdom didn’t suddenly wake up to the consequences of his wide-open border policy, we have a real crisis on our hands… Russia! Imperial Leader Joe Biden issued another of his infamous Palace Decrees… Kicking Russian officials out of the country, sanctions, calling Putin a killer (a compliment to Putin), demands for Navalnys unconditional release, declaring Russian interference in 2020 (needs to be careful with that one since they were pro-braindead) and calling them out for the “Solarwinds” cyber attack… “Russia is an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States”… But, NOT the thousands of ILLEGAL immigrants streaming over our borders daily OR the Fascists and Marxists looting and burning our cities nightly… They’re okay in Creepy Uncle Joes book…

    • And in the meantime theBiden wants to disarm the citizens.
      And just what sanctions is the U S. going levy on Russia, no more wheat? Like duh, that’s one reason Russia is taking the Ukraine.
      We fcked up when the U.S didn’t make an alliance with Russia.
      With a pack of Chihuahuas are nipping at you , you certainly don’t want Pit Bulls joining them.

    • What that actually is, is a warning to Putin not to invade Ukraine.

      At this point, I believe Putin will do just that. And when condemnations and sanctions rain down on him, Putin will simply let Europe freeze next winter.

      The US has the natural gas reserves to supply Europe. Thanks to Leftist scum shutting down new fracking, we couldn’t supply Europe even if we had the energy infrastructure in place to do so, thanks to Leftists not allowing ocean LNG terminals to be built…

  22. One concern I have about the police and the law is the fact that many police officers are absolutely ignorant on firearms’ laws. (as well as others) There are plenty of YouTube videos out there of police officers violating gun owners’ rights because they flat out don’t know the law. Worse, there are a few out there who don’t like the law and want to harass law abiding gun owners for doing nothing but carrying a firearm openly or in in their vehicles. Kind of speaking in their defense, the gun laws can be very confusing (probably by design), but I saw an episode of “Cops” where an officer arrested a man for carrying a pistol in his car after he informed the officer he had one in the car. The charge was a joke-something like “improper carry.” I will NEVER tell a police officer I have a weapon in my car even if required by law.

  23. Some of us have longer memories. I vividly recall all of the law enforcement officials who figuratively as well as literally stood behind President Clinton to back the ban on so called “assault weapons “. They were claiming that they were being “outgunned” by the criminals armed with uzis and AK-47s. Those of us who were cognizant of the FBI database on homicides of law enforcement officers knew that this was utter bovine scatology. The number of cops getting killed had been on a steep define for decades and was at or about a historic low.

    To be blunt, many police officers are suffering from a Freudian phobia of being outgunned by the criminals. The excessive fear rather than racism has resulted in many incidents of excessive force.

    • They were claiming that they were being “outgunned” by the criminals armed with uzis and AK-47s..

      They actually were being outgunned… As in the 97 North Hollywood bank robbery and the 1986 FBI debacle in Miami… (proof that bad guys don’t CARE about gun laws)

        • Didn’t those guys have illegally modified AK’s

          Not modified… Real deal, full-auto AKs… Wounded like 11 cops, but somehow managed NOT to kill anyone…

        • They had Norinco Type 56 rifles, a Bushmaster XM-15 Dissipator with a 100 round drum magazine, and a Heckler & Koch HK91 rifle. They were all illegally modified to be select-fire. It appears that Larry Phillips did the mods himself. The two robbers also had very effective homemade aramid body armor.

          The shootout contributed to the militarization of police everywhere in the US.

      • Profoundly rare occasion.
        The FBI statistics reveal a far different reality.

        An example is the Frederick Hopkins shootout in North Carolina. The police were OUTGUNNED because Freddy had an M-14! It was actually an M-1A. Freddy fired 39 rounds. The police fired 390 rounds, without hitting the perpetrator.

  24. The (highly illegal) lockdowns and race riots of last year proved beyond a sliver of doubt that the vast majority of police hold no allegiance to we the people OR the law. The politicians tell them “enforce this thing that isn’t the law and don’t enforce this other thing that is the law. Shut down those small businesses at gunpoint because I say so, then stand back and watch while rioters burn and murder, and arrest anyone trying to defend themselves against the rioters.”

    How many refused to be the enforcers for the political class? Hardly any. Fvck every last one of them, but at least it’s out in the open and we know where we stand. Every patriot should view the police with distrust and skepticism, if not outright hostility

    • “distrust and skepticism, if not outright hostility”
      yep, and didn’t have to be that way but the Police have made it so.

  25. I’ve always felt like a lot of the back the blue crew were just little wannabees who think slobbering on the crotch of “authoritah” would grant them some sort of reprieve or “badge bunny” protection.

    • I think it’s similar to all the cucks out there who think nurses, teachers, delivery drivers, etc are heroes because they’ve been “risking their lives” with COVID. Others will blindly support a war in Iraq or Afghanistan, because it’s for our “freedom.” It makes me think of an extension of the slave morality, described by Nietzsche. For similar reasons, too many Americans cannot form an opinion without consulting CNN, Fox, and others beforehand.

  26. Downunder a range visit by police is seen as a potential trawl for infringements so they can bust someone and seize firearms.

    Luckily at one range there is time and distance working in our favor to quickly close and lock doors.

    And they wonder why they have no respect when their alignment is lawful-stupid.

    • “Downunder a range visit by police is seen as a potential trawl for infringements so they can bust someone and seize firearms.”

      Is shooting on private land is allowed?

      Because you can bet they will eventually outlaw that, and cops will be at the ‘official’ public ranges…

      • You can, but it must be rural and you need to have permission from the owner. In an urban area, not at all unless it’s at an approved range.

  27. I do not support organizations that do not support the constitution. Simple as that. The Fraternal Order of Police is against constitutional carry, so I am against them.

  28. My pistol is for personal defense against, most likely, 4 legged aggressors.

    My rifle and vest? I have them to defend my self from, most likely, 2 legged aggressors identifying themselves as police.

  29. There’s too many people who blindly support the police no matter what. The majority of cops in USA (or at least city cops) are straight up douche bags. They think they are better than you and I.

    We went from blue suits and shiny black shoes to multican, MRAPs, rifles, plate carriers w/ 6 AR mags, radios, night vision rigs… all to serve and protect the shit outta you stupid peon civvies…

  30. My (probably a pipe dream) solution would be to either simply REPLACE all police departments with sheriff departments, where the sheriffs (and by extension their deputies) would be directly elected by the people in the communities they serve, or the office of Police Chief be fundamentally altered so Police Chiefs too are directly elected by the people in the areas they serve, just as many sheriffs are. Remove the power to corrupt local law enforcement from local city governments. This undoes the dramatic damage done when police chiefs, and by extension all who work under them, must look to far too often corrupt local mayors and the corrupt local political class for any sense of job security, INSTEAD of to the very people they are supposed to “Protect and Serve”, at least according to the propaganda painted on an awful lot of police cars.

    All of those wonderfully outspoken sheriffs who can openly refuse to enforce unconstitutional law are directly elected by the people in the areas they serve, and are thus very hard to remove by corrupt local petty politicians looking to line their own pockets, and/or to promote racist ‘social justice” garbage in place of constitutionally sound law. THAT is the answer and solution for retaining individual liberty for ALL future generations of Americans. Directly elected law enforcement would have every necessary inducement to promote and protect the constitutional rights of We The People who elect them into office, else someone else be elected in their place who will do so instead. 🙂

    Separate law enforcement from the political realm as much as possible, and minimize how much the political class can try to bully them around as part of their endless “dog & pony show” reelection campaigns. That is my personally recommended but-fuzzy-on-details-on-how-this-could-be-done-in-every-city / state solution. All that would be most certain is, when the local population can vote OUT the police they are unhappy with, and elect new more suitable officers of the law in their place, the rights of the individual citizen should prevail. We should ALL live in an area where the local Sheriff / law enforcement officials can openly refuse to enforce unconstitutional law, and be ensured of being endlessly reelected for it in a local voting landslide every time they do so. There is simply no room for oath breakers in law enforcement, and the required law enforcement oath to uphold the US Constitution must stand proudly above everything else. God Bless America.

    • Definitely a pipe dream. Your facts are correct, but your causal analysis omits critical context.

      My sheriff is great – not because she was elected, but because she was elected by country people who want to be left alone. If the County Commissioners (elected by the same Republican, Independent American, and Libertarian voters) appointed a CLEO, it would be someone like her.

      Big-city police chiefs suck, not because they are appointed, but because they are appointed by big-city leftists. If big-city leftists elected their CLEOs, they would elect big-city leftists.

      Is the military imperfect, political, and infested with “social justice”? Absolutely – because those things are imposed by elected leaders. Do you think it would be less political if FOGOs were elected (i.e. politicians) rather than promoted through the professional ranks?

    • I agree. This discussion isn’t the first time that it has been pointed out, that a fair percentage of Police Chiefs, and to a lesser degree Sheriffs, have spoken out in opposition to Pro Gun Legislation. It’s been going on for more than my 60 years on the planet.
      It’s reached the point, that whenever theirs legislation discussions, or legislation pending that restricts gun rights, Police Chiefs are almost to a man nationwide, all in favor. Conversely, when ever there’s Pro Gun Legislation, the overwhelming majority of Chiefs, are opposed.
      When we look at County Sheriffs, the complete opposite occurs. The majority of Sheriffs oppose Anti-Gun legislation and support Pro Gun Legislation. It’s not 100% across the board in either group, but the majority is an overwhelming majority, not a simple one.
      You make the point (and I have in previous discussion on this topic), that the “Elections” of Sheriffs vs the Appointments of Police Chiefs is why there is this broad gap, and I believe this too. Sheriffs are employees of the people. Police Chiefs are the employees of the Mayor and/or City Council. Whichever direction the Mayor and City Council bends, the Chief bend right with them, whereas the Sheriff bends the direction the citizenry bends.

      You bring up an extremely valid point, and a solution. Direct election for Police Chiefs. Make them responsible to the people, not just which politician’s ass they’re lips are super glued too.

      Will it happen? Only if we the people figuratively hold our Mayors and Councils feet to the fire. Something we’re not accustomed to doing, and we need to start engaging in doing that.

      Thank you, it’s good to see someone else notice this polar division in Law Enforcement in the same way.

  31. I used to wear the badge, so I’m more than fully qualified to say what I am about to say… WHEN COPS SWEAR ON THEIR MOMMA’S GRAVES THEY’D NEVER CONFISCATE GUNS, THEN TURN AROUND & CONFISCATE GUNS, YOU MUST DISBELIEVE ANYTHING & EVERYTHING THEY HAVE TO SAY.
    PERSONALLY, I’LL ONLY TRUST ANOTHER COP WHO’S A CARD-CARRYING MEMBER OF CSPOA.

  32. Great article! Cops will eventually be mistrusted (when not hated) by different groups of people, from leftists of all kinds to more conservative folks, etc. This will cause many cops to embrace even more their “think blue line” b.s and questionable way of dealing with the public. It’s a never ending circle and other than the tyrants in charge, there are no real winners here. Many LE agencies struggle to hire decent candidates simply because it makes less sense to become a cop if you’re a normal person. Other cops become nuts because of the job, too much negativity.

    • The simple facts remain, cops deal with law breakers of all description all day and night, that’s what they have to do. At the end of shift they have to deal with law breakers of administrative description, that’s who they have to answer to. It’s no wonder police become bitter and defensive, our society makes them cynical. LEOs deal with the dregs of modern life.

  33. Probably in the near future only the “meanies” will stay on the force. My son is looking for another job , he’s had it with law enforcement. And that’s too bad, he doesn’t see black and white, is fair, knows people are going to give him trouble and doesn’t think his badge makes him any better then anyone. A large officer Pete Malloy

  34. I like the police. But if you hate cops. Then move to Memphis or St Louis or Chicago. In those cities you will find certain neighborhoods with almost no police. And then you can allow your dreams to come true about not having police.

    About 20 years ago Cincinnati Ohio experimented with a 60-day period without a police force. Those that lived there can describe what it was like when the police didn’t show up at all.

    • No police would mean the police don’t arrest you for shotgunming some hoodlum doing hoodlum things. Be a hell of a war but eventually one side or the other would run out of bullets. err, uh, well they could throw gunms at each other.

  35. No serious person wants to get rid of police. The “Defund” talk is idiotic and an exaggeration of what was intended. Police do not need to be so universally militarized. Too many SWAT teams, too many armored vehicles. Too damned much “Warrior Cop” attitude.

    To much “if you’re not cop you’re little people” attitude. And yes that’s a line from a movie, but damn if it hasn’t come to be real some cops.

    I see nothing wrong with taking some money out of police budgets to fix what’s broke. In some big cities that doesn’t even end up being a budget cut, just a smaller budget increase than was demanded.

    • “No serious person wants to get rid of police.”

      Libertarians on TTAG have been saying we don’t need the police for a long time now. And they hate the cops. But I don’t consider Libertarians to be serious people. Because they don’t support private citizens taking up arms and dealing with her own problems. In the end Libertarians would prefer the police. Instead of a citizenry that is armed to the teeth.

      Because historically in the United States the private citizens had more guns, and more powerful guns, then law enforcement and the military ever did.

      And we were a free country back then. And all drugs were legal back then too. But you could also shoot drug users and drug dealers on site. When they became a danger to your community.

  36. Massachusetts is a MAY-issue state with a prove to us why you need it attitude… If you are aware of any county there that is in defiance of state law keep it to yourself because it must be one heavily guarded secret…

  37. Cops are cool until they’re not. Policing’s a shitshow IMHO. Lot’s of good folks, a few bad ones you have no idea which is which until you’re hemmed up by a bad one but you can bet the union’s got that cop’s back to the hilt. From selection and training to militarization and funding, community policing (or not) and intelligence work… it’s a mess.

    I feel bad for the good ones but I kinda wish they’d sack up and frag the bad ones.

    So, as it stands, ya pay’s ya money and takes ya chances just like everything else.

    But, hey, it’s already starting with the Black Bloc and other assorted miscreants in mid-April? This summer’s set to be a hootnanny, eh? Thank God all those civil-rights respecting DA’s got elected to keep order, right?

    Oh, and a side note; In the Third Reich the majority of fine folks in the Gestapo were drawn from the local constabulary. Just an interesting factoid.

    The really weird thing about that though is this; If you look at side by side pictures of a lot of Gestapo Agents and American Prohibition Agents… they’re damned near impossible to tell apart unless the photograph is labeled, they’re openly displaying firearms or the picture has cars/signage in it.

  38. Critics
    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
    Theodore Roosevelt

    Lumping all law enforcement officers together is fundamentally wrong. There are many who vehemently strive to defend the constitution. Especially the second amendment. After 36 years I arrested thousands and did not beat, taze, shoot, anyone. I’ve known hundreds just like myself. So be fare in your criticisms because I bet you could be found to be lacking in some arena also. Especially some of your colleagues. Also I am and have always been for constitutional carry.

  39. Other than the gun reviews, I don’t have much respect for many of the commentors on TTAG. The trendiness of cop-bashing continues. A cop mistake or crime is world news, a cop accomplishment is ignored. Try treating your wife or friends that way and see how well it works out for you.

    I’ve taken considerable risk looking the other way and being a conservative has cost me a promotion. Plenty of dirty lawyers, contractors, and salesmen out there. Maybe take a minute to judge people individually by their merits and see how that works out for you.

    I get along well with conservatives, and I’m professionally cordial to communists because I have to be. I’d say good luck on your cop-bashing, but It’s not an endeavor I support. If all your cop experiences are bad it’s probably because you are an a$$hole.

    • You are a good cop. There are plenty of cops like you around, but there are also plenty of bad ones.

      We want more cops like you, and less cops who would kneel on a fools neck until he dies while refusing him medical care from a city firefighter/EMT.

      What’s the answer? Better training, better selection, severe restrictions on, or an end to, qualified immunity, and the utter and complete destruction of police unions.

  40. If all your cop experiences are bad it’s probably because you are an a$$hole.

    Yeah, no way those cops could have been assholes with attitudes…

  41. Who do you think is coming to confiscate your firearms?

    Hint: It’s not the politicians who passed those laws.

  42. Translation for the unintentionally hilarious first paragraph:

    “A couple decades ago, police had a lot of credibility in the gun community. When we’d need to [beg for the privilege of exercising a constitutional right], it often would involve [paying a police-approved gatekeeper], and [the final bribe would be taken by] a state or local police agency . . .”

    Yep, all that paying and hoop-jumping warmed my heart, too.

  43. I served for 23 years.
    In many agencies cops enforce penty ante regulations- bullshit[
    Are many revenue agents who serve to infuriate the good guys
    They give you a ticket for washing the car on the wrong day or they
    serve as yard police if you dont cut the grass. They dont know HOW to
    be peace officers. They confuse traffic tickets with making cases.
    Let me give one example- in NY they choked a poor man to death for what? Selling cigarettes- forget if he resisted- the intial case was for sellling cigarrettes on the corner. Now- the real cops versus the fake cops- real cops are polite ask the guy to move along as the stiff expect the real cop to do something, please move along. Later when a real crime such as murder or break comes along the guy remembers the favor and polite cops and tells him something worth knowing.
    Today- all messed up.

  44. Just watched the movie “L.A. Confidential” yesterday.

    Even though it was made in the late 90s, it sure has EVERYTHING in it that was talked about by all the above posters.

    It’s quite eerie how this movie mirrors pretty much what everyone here thinks about cops…

  45. I know a musician who told me about a roommate he had in LA or Las Vegas, someplace like that. He was a cop. He’d bust a kid with 6 joints, turn in 3 and keep 3. He would then bust a prostitute and bring her back to the apartment where they would smoke the joints and do prostitute stuff. Then he would let her go without pressing charges.

    My friend did not partake, but it had a lifelong effect on his perception of law enforcement.

    Another time, in the Boston area, my roommate and I were looking for a 3rd roommate and put out an ad. We got a phone call from a woman who told us the following:

    “My boyfriend is a DEA agent. He can get us any kind of drugs we want.”

    We selected someone else.

  46. A good example of police incompetence in America’s largest city is the 12 lb. trigger in NYPD Glock handguns. Yes, 12 lbs.!
    You see, New York’s “finest” are so incompetent that they need to have an atrocious “trigger pull” to keep them from killing citizens.
    One major move that would reign in rogue police officers would be the abolition of their official “immunity”, to be replaced with “malpractice insurance” as a requirement for holding the job. No insurance=no job.

  47. Meh. I never thought they had much credibility. I used to read Police magazine in the 70’s when I was a CJ major in college and was initially surprised by the anti-2A editorial perspective. Then it dawned on me – why would they want anyone in the public to be armed other than themselves? Best if the plebes can’t shoot back.

  48. I’m not into Cop Bashing. Law Enforcement’s a very difficult job, and the bashing just makes it worse. How do you do the job to the best of your ability, when the Elected Leadershio of the country is against you, whether it’s at the Local, State or Federal level, and a Media that pours gas on the fire instead of helping?
    The Democrats want the 2nd Amendment repealed. They may say otherwise, but that’s a Bald Faced LIe. They know an Amendment to repeal the 2nd will fail, so their solution is to chip away at the 2nd with every breath that they make. Calling it “common sense gun reform” to recruit followers.
    Most of the Associations and Orders that LE is encouraged to join whether as an Officer or Chief, arose directly from the Unions, and Unions have their lips epoxied between the butt cheeks of the DNC.
    So is it any wonder that Police Chiefs oppose Pro Gun legislation and back Anti Gun Legislation? To me, it’s as obvious as Biden’s Dementia.
    What’s even more perverse, is Police Chiefs lip lock on the butthole of the Party calling for the abolition of Law Enforcement.
    I’ve no problem with our LEO’s, but their leadership needs a high colonic.

  49. MADDMAXX: The 1986 FBI shootout in Florida was a cluster. The FBI did not properly prepare for a felony stop, they thought is would be easy. They made many mistakes, including not having the correct firepower and procedures. The report is out there.

    If you see the FBI conducting a raid, RUN the other way, it will be safer for you.

    • And they drew the wrong conclusion: 9mm is inadequate. But we can’t go back to .45ACP because that would admit we made a mistake. So let’s go 10mm! But our agents can’t handle it. So we download the cartridge.

      Ammo makers realize the can duplicate the 10mm Light in a shorter case and .40S&W was born.

  50. 10mm Light in a shorter case and .40S&W was born.

    With no more stopping power than 9mm… But I’m okay with all that because I love my 10mm… AND my old Ruger P-90 in 45 ACP (no, don’t have a .40 anything)

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