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Because we could use some wisdom from the late Pat Rogers right about now . . .

“While shooting is relatively easy to teach, fighting isn’t. This is especially true for those who have never experienced an emergency, been in a fist fight and whose exposure to a fight is theoretical.”

“Just because you’re shot, doesn’t mean you’re dead. Just because you’re dead, doesn’t mean you’re dead right now. KEEP FIGHTING!”

“Trying to learn something by making mistakes is a poor way to go. You are in the middle of a million bad habits, and without having someone qualified to teach correcting you, you are just wasting time.”

“Seeking out a bulls-eye shooter to teach you gun fighting would be similar to having an ACLU lawyer teach CQB. Marksmanship when applied to fighting is 1/3 of the combat triad. Marksmanship when applied to bulls-eye competition is the end state. There is shooting competition and there is fighting. One is fun, the other isn’t.

“If you are standing still, you are stagnating and lose relevance.”

Pat Rogers (and here)

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    • People can be “mortally injured” I.E, its going to kill them, it just hasn’t caught up yet. You still have seven seconds if shot in the heart to shoot back, well, according to what I was taught. Shoot until they hit the ground and double tap to be sure.

  1. “Just because you’re shot, doesn’t mean you’re dead. Just because you’re dead, doesn’t mean you’re dead right now.” That applies to bad guys, too. (Not quite) dead ones can still kill you.

    I just finished the book, FBI Miami Firefight, about the 1986 gunfight between two bank robbers and eight FBI agents. The author is Ed Mireles, the agent who finished off the two robbers despite having had one arm nearly shot off. The robber who did the most damage suffered a mortal wound close to the start of the fight but still managed to kill two agents and wound three.

    • Yeah,
      I remember watching the after action video report of that shootout.
      It changed a lot of FBI tactics after that shootout.

    • If I remember correctly Agent Mireles ended that fight with a Smith snub shooting 158 grain .38 special +p loads. He also used an 870 and racked and shot it with one hand because the other was disabled. That takes some stones my friends.

  2. There I thought it was the .45 that was the Soul Stealer. I can put my old 1911 back on the shelf, but how am I supposed to get a Creedmoor under my shirt?

  3. Sounds like a guy trying to market a product in a crowded field. How many go to work, law abiding, tax paying POTG have been in a fight past grade school? The % is likely very low. Even including the vets amongst us.

    Safe gun handling is supremely important. Anything past that is just marketing a product. We ain’t operators. And we have story after story right here at TTAG of folks that not only weren’t trained, but in at least 2 cases had never fired a weapon before they successfully defended themselves.

    Spend your money how you wish. But, to steal a line from our very own Ralph “We ain’t storming Fallujah.”

    • It is not a popular stance, but I truly believe that the value of martial arts training resides in sparring. I make sure my kids understood what it feels like to both give and take a punch. Its important for kids to know that and its something that is being bred out of polite American society.

    • I worked security at parties in college so I got into the occasional scuffle. However, the bad guys were always drunk and easy to corral. Encounters were closer to “The Three Stooges” than to “Mortal Combat.” My personal favorite was the guy who took a swing at me, missed, lost his balance, fell, hit his head, and knocked himself out cold.

  4. “Just because you’re dead doesn’t mean you cannot vote”

  5. Actually, I believe the point of this article should be more well-taken. In this day age of the wimp/wuss/whatever- at least a generation has seen “fighting” of any kind, including standing up for one’s self, villified to the point where many people now even evade speaking to others, face-to-face, at all. Text, text, text, etc. On social media (which probably includes TTAG), in conferencing, even what should be simple conversations between friends, family and other acquaintances. Never a real phone call, God forbid actually speaking at arm’s length. Personal interaction is swiftly becoming a thing of the past and many people are no longer able to accept plain talk in any manner, especially of the type that goes directly to the point. Must be racist, biggotterd, homophobic, etc., etc.

    When confronted with a truly threatening situation, many will choose passivity over acceptance of the challenge. On the other hand, it has been shown, time and again, that just a violence of action will often catch the aggressor off guard and can quickly turn the tables. Kick him in the jewels, bite his/her/its ear off, gouge out their eyes, stomp them in the head if you can get them down. If a gun is at hand, by all means employ it. Win the fight.

    Today, the old, simple one-on-one fight across the street after school rarely exists and deals are no longer done at the smallest level to keep them from growing. There was often more learning in those 2 minutes than one had gathered over 16 years of life. This repression has led to the senseless and undirected violence we now see in young gangs on the one hand, and the inablility of people after college age to deal with real problems that arise. I know it’s more simple to mock posts such as the original but there is wisdom within if we’re willing to look.

  6. The only time you’re REALLY dead is when you get shot with a 500grain 45-70 hardcast flat nose Magnum….

    Well, according to recent series on TV, it seems that the dead do come back to life all the time, just much uglier and hungrier…….kinda like liberals, who can even vote after death……

  7. I have to disagree on a couple of points, with Pat and JWM.

    I STRONGLY agree with practicing gun safety, however.

    It is not realistic to expect most gun owners to even locate, much less obtain, good gun fight training.

    We can train in a number of different ways, however. Fitness training is my top priority.

    I was in a few fist fights after grade school. Not my choice but it happens. You never know when some knucklehead is going to behave unacceptably. You either rise to the occassion or don’t. My particular policy is to suddenly act unhinged and unrestrained in my response. While I may appear crazy, it’s truly an act.That said, I’m talking fists, not guns. At worst, I’ll get my butt beat but my attacker won’t leave unscathed. I’ve also found something very cathartic about releasing my fury upon an opponent.

    I am at least three decades hence, from my last physical altercation. I run and lift regularly. Not looking for a fight but will be in a MUCH bettter position if one comes my way. Who knows, it might mean the difference between getting to use my fists and NEEDING to use a firearm.

    I disagree with Pat in that we need to make mistakes now, when our lives don’t depend upon it. It’s part of training. We just need to mitigate the risks associated with guns while were doing it. I don’t do enough but have found my practical shooters association very helpful. I simply don’t even try to memorize the scenarios and I use my carry weapon.

    Thanks for the discussion!

    • Regular work outs are a very good thing. Walk and lift weights for me and a love of the outdoors. At one point I weighed 320 pounds. At 235 I’m still fat. But it’s a much more active fat.

      • But your a DAMN site skinnier than you were. Good on you.

        I think a little bit of fat actually is beneficial – more layers to go through. 😉

  8. I’ve seen some horrible injuries downrange and they stayed in the fight. Seen other guys get a very minor wound and they were done fighting.
    It really is the will to win, no matter what.

  9. I used to work with a guy who had six scars running diagonally across his chest from hip to shoulder. They were 7.62 pistol rounds from a Chinese PPSH 41 submachine gun. Friend took the hits in North Korea when he was serving in the marines. He felt that he survived because of the heavy winter clothing he was wearing, the fairly long range from the shooter, and the skill of a navy corpsman who slowed down the bleeding and kept him alive. He joked that he only got one Purple Heart for the six hits.

  10. Anyone who has ever hunted knows this maxim well. Bullets are not the magic that hollywood would want us to believe they are. I have had white tail deer shot through the heart still run close to 100 yards at full speed, jump over fences and all.

  11. “There is shooting competition and there is fighting. One is fun, the other isn’t.”

    I disagree. Both are fun.

  12. How come the modern day Warrior complains about fighting tough adversaries and stopping power?! I DON’T remember any historical stories of the Anicient Roman soldiers complaining about the stopping power of their Maintz Pattern Gladius hispaniensis, or they pilum…..

    • The fact that their are several patterns of Gladius, used at different times in Roman military history, with different blade lengths and shapes, proves that your assessment is incorrect. Blades, shields, and armor changed with time, meaning the tactics and technology changed…because some folks probably bitched that what was being used wasn’t good enough.

  13. I always think of my dad when people talk about fighting. He was a smallish man who didn’t get in trouble or stand out in a crowd, but he was a banty rooster; even at the age of 60 and me in my weight-lifting, football-playing prime, I knew I couldn’t take him in a fight. The world is poorer without him and those of his type: he had an inner steel that would never quit, give up, or be denied.

    I’ll never be the man he was. And the reason is because I didn’t have to go through the adversity he did. He endured hard poverty in his youth and relentlessly worked long, hard, and smart to overcome it. Suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character. Too many like myself have never had to endure such things and as such have never developed that same level of rock-ribbed determination to keep on keeping on.

    And I’ll go ahead and say it; no instructor can teach this in a weekend training course, and any who say they can is a liar. They can educate you with techniques to train on, and that’s great; but you have to bring your own mind-set and strength of will to bear in a fight.

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