Yes, that’s a lot of money. And we see it all the time these days…readers in the comment section OUTRAGED that retailers are “gouging” them on ammunition prices. We know they’re outraged because the caps lock is on.
We have some breaking news for you: we’re not living in the pre-pandemic world any more. And with a hostile administration about to take office, the high demand for ammo — along with manufacturers working like hell to try to meet it — isn’t going to change any time soon.
We’ve heard from one large ammo maker who doesn’t expect to catch up on their current backlog of orders for three years. You read that right, three years.
As for the price above, when you have tens of millions of gun owners chasing a commodity they all need at the same time, the price is going to rise. And it has. You can’t repeal the laws of economics no matter how hard you (and clueless politicians) may try.
So if you made hay while the sun was shining and topped off your stores of gun food prior to 2020, good on you. If you didn’t and you need ammunition, waiting for the price to come down probably isn’t going to work out for you. If you need it, you’re going to have to bite the bullet (so to speak) and pay the current market rate.
The fact is, range ammo priced at 64 cents a round isn’t gouging. It’s the going price. We all wish it were otherwise, but wishing won’t get anyone anywhere.
Your best course of action is to keep your eye on the bigger, more reputable sellers like Palmetto State, Brownells, Sportsman’s and others (including your local gun stores and ranges), then buy when they get a shipment. PSA has cases of Federal Independence range ammo in stock now. We don’t know how much they have, but we’d bet on it being out of stock by the end of the day.
Act (and buy) accordingly.
$0.64 per round? This is a ripoff.
Who could have possibly seen that coming?
And Ray Charles
why can’t helen keller drive?
Because she’s dead.
But they all keep voting democrat! (death never stops a democrat from voting)
Around 3 weeks ago on G-Broker there was a bidding war for 1000 rds. of 9mm ball and at last look bids were in the $1200.00 range. These spoiled brat gun owning crybabies join hands and trip over each other to bash anything from the POTUS to the NRA to ammo prices. They don’t know how good they had it until it’s gone…such a.sad bunch.
If you are low on ammo and pinching pennies…At $639.00 it’s time to find someone who’ll go in half and share the pain.
That’s the real Deborah.
(Accept no lame imitation… 😉 )
(cough cough) except for those of us who live in CA and aren’t on the stupid CADOJ gun registration database. The full 10-day-wait background alternative BGC is a joke. No soup for us.
Otherwise, I’d definitely take you up on your suggestion and find a friend to go halfsies with me on that 1000 rds.
thats why I shoot .40 hahhaahaa
I understand new shooters getting caught flat footed, but us guys that went through the Obama crunch should have known better. In January Bass Pro had 124 gr NATO for $8 a box. I would have bought more but had nowhere to put it.
I’ve been gradually accumulating 22lr, 9mm .223, and 7.62×39 for years, including 16¢ per round .223 and 7.62×39 back in Feb. I don’t have as much as I’d like, but I don’t feel too bad.
2012-2013 taught me something
Over the last 9 months, I’ve been gradually adding more .270. I just picked up some more .270 and 7.62x54r yesterday (same price as a year ago). If I’m gonna pay 75¢ a round for crap 55grain fmj .223 (price at the store), I’d just as soon pay 85¢ a round and get 130 grain soft point .270.
Spending more time shooting the .270 these days.
0.64 a round is pretty good these days. You can still find it for half that but you have to look hard and move fast.
For the economically uneducated
What has government done to our money
Man, economy, and state with power and market
and one of my personal favorites, An Austrian perspective on the history of economic thought volumes 1 and 2
“Move fast” is putting it mildly. It now now takes only a few minutes for a retailer to run out of any of the more popular calibers from the moment they advertise it at pre-Covid prices. Mind you, much of that is because of people seeing such a deal, ordering a few thousand rounds, and then doubling their money two weeks later on Gunbroker.
I have found it, put in an order, only to discover after entering payment info, that it’s *gone*.
Pisses me off… 🙁
Re: von Mises. Well said, Pirate. Let’s all repeat: Value is subjective. Value is subjective. Value is subjective. . . What people define is real is real in it’s consequences. 1k of 9mm for $1200? Sure. Just not for me. I learned my lesson after Sandy Hook.
Interestingly, I can still buy 9mm from a regional, employee owned discount store for .28 a round and I’m talking brass case Federal, Winchester and Blazer. Only 100 rounds, per person, per day, but still. Why aren’t they jacking up the price? I get price increases, but this goes far beyond that.
My LGS is selling 9mm for $15 a box when they have it but there is a catch. You can only by one box atca time. That is why I paid $600 for 1000 rounds at Lucky Gunner. Now I can go to the range and shoot while you people whine about price gouging sit at home and dry fire.
As the saying goes; A fool and his money are soon parted. I’ll make you a great deal on ammo especially for the prices you are willing to pay.
Well, moron you be the fool because I probably pay more in taxes than you ever made in a single a year. I don’t have to pay those taxes because I am foolish with my money. You are just another closet communist who thinks you have a right to someone property under the terms you set.
You can still get Blazer and other 9mm at Academy for about $16 a box. Limit is three boxes and you have to be in line about an hour before they open, but they aren’t price gouging. Yes, there is an increase in price, and yes, some people are price gouging. The problem is, soon it won’t be price gouging and these $600+ prices per case will seem like the good old days. Look no further than Beijing Biden and a stolen election. The shit show is just beginning…
Sounds like standing in line for bread in the old Soviet Union.
It sounds to me like you are talking about
Bi-Mart. Gotta love the Bi-Mart
Wonder how training businesses (that promise you’re going to shoot 1000 rounds in 2 days) are faring these days?
Maybe they’re coming to the realization that it doesn’t take a thousand rounds of handgun ammunition to become reasonably proficient with said handgun, and that their students are not preparing to engage a tennis-shoe-shod North Korean horde coming through their front doors, bugles blaring, but instead are sensibly obtaining just a modicum of training for a much smaller horde of Nike-shod Urban Yutes and Teens who are, lamentably, sans bugles?
It’s not 64c / round if you pick up your brass and reload it. The casing is the most expensive item of a cartridge. I don’t shoot very much (wish I did), just because work, kids, and home life take a lot of time. But a few years ago, I bought thousands and thousands of rounds of range brass from the nearby army base sold through an online auction, like government liquidation or similar. Example:
I also got hundreds of pounds of free (that’s right, free) wheel weights from the local tire shop that considered them toxic waste. I visited 13 different tire shops and asked them about their wheel weights. Basically, whenever I needed to change my oil (I live in the city) I would visit a different place to check and see their wheel weight situation. All but two of them said they already have an arrangement and the wheel weights were not for sale (more than likely, they were reloading themselves, or making fishing weights, or have a relative that wanted them). The two that were not, gave me buckets full of them (provide your own bucket).
A cheap Lee 9mm mold, a few reloading tools, and just like that, I was saving big $$$.
Most of the time, you don’t save money on reloading equipment and reloading in general, but for smaller cartridges like 9mm, where you don’t mind a ugly lead bullet, powder coated, spray painted, or wax lubed, rather than something exotic like a Hornady XTP or some amazing new bling bullet, then you can save some money. It is time consuming, so if you have a lot of time and not a lot of $$$ it might be worth it to you.
Rifle rounds (with exception to 308 and 5.56) you really can’t save much of any money on. In fact, you will likely pay much more for your reloaded rounds than for those in-store. However, you have the flexibility to experiment and literally create your own cartridge, measure 20 thou off the lands, work up a load tuned for your particular rifle by generating a unique “recipe” that can be rewarding and amazingly accurate.
AND I thought Too many jumped on the reloading after the last 2 rounds of scarcity. Only newbie reloaders start bragging about reloading. Those of us that have been reloading for decades know to keep out mouths shut during the hoarding runs !. + You’re a little late. Where are you gonna find primers? Gunbroker? You might as well pay the 64 cents a round everybody is bitching about. My local gun store just told me his supplier told him Next Year for his order of Primers.
Yup. I normally keep measurements on my phone. X = how many cases I have, it takes Y grains of powder per hundred or thousand. So I need 2 pounds of powder, 2,000 primers and I already have the projo’s.
Then multiply that by 10 for safety sake.
Use one, buy one. Kind of a prepper lifestyle.
Primers are always the weak link. Primer shortages have happened again and again. They were scarce at times during the Clinton administration. They were scarce during Obama at times. They got really scarce right before 2016 election. And they’re scarce now.
Why? Because when there’s high demand for ammunition, the primer factories are running at full capacity just to meet demand for ammo, and there’s not excess production for the retail primer market.
To just do 9mm (on the cheap) I would suggest:
–> Lee breach lock challenger (shop around). If you have a local reloading shop, some used equipment sometimes shows up. This is perfect for 9mm. You don’t need super accurate here for pistol cartridges.
–> Lee 9mm dies ($25 – $35). Pace-setter is fine. Make sure you get a taper crimp, not a roll crimp, and I would suggest applying a light crimp.
–> small pistol primers, cases.
–> old rusty pot, or frying pan. Melt the lead. Pick up a lee ladle or similar.
–> old grill temp gauge (optional, even a frosty bullet fires fine)
–> 0.356 Lee bullet sizing die
–> Bullet lube (make your own or buy lee liquid alox, or spray paint, powder coat, etc).
Probably most of your time will be case cleaning. If you already have a rotary or vibratory tumbler use that. If you don’t, you can literally rig shit up making your own rotary tumbler. Use an old motor, some rubber caster wheels. Rotate a 5 or 3 gallon bucket on top. Throw some walnut from the pet store (not walnut from reloading places) in with your brass to clean them up. Get a primer pocket reamer for crimped primer pockets and a small brush for cleaning the pocket.
Easy smart-assed answer. Try getting primers and brass.
I don’t know where you live, but where I live, primers and brass have always been available. For a time, there were no small rifle primers and no 300blkout cases, but other than those, occasionally there is stock of whatever else I wanted on a rotational basis. Also, there is a public range nearby, unmanaged. Basically its a range where people shoot their guns. It is very small, about 100 yards, and there are no range officers. That means there is trash everywhere, and casings everywhere, and if one wanted to… scrounge around on the ground like a homeless hobo dumpster diving, one could.
In normal days primers cost $30 per thousand.
So any reloader with half a brain knows to keep 20,000 primers on hand. ($600)
As for brass, nobody buys brass. ha.
Last primers i bought (off Brand) were $22.50 from a distributor – including hazmat – we bought a large amount of powder & primers split 3 ways. Win small pistol primers from LGS, $26.95. Now- those win primers are on Gunbroker, starting bid $50.
I told everyone, I mean everyone, I could, online and in person, to buy while they could for the last four years. I bought as much ammo and guns I could the last four years as I knew it was coming either now or in 2024.
This is simple physics. You stock up when times are cheap.
Now, I’m far from happy about this, don’t get me wrong. This is a BAD panic. The worst ever. Far worse then 2013 or 2008. It means I don’t really get to shoot out of my stockpile. I’ll occasionally confirm my zero, and that’s about it.
I will say though, if you don’t like these prices then don’t pay them, then. The only way this ends is for people to stop panic buying and stop paying out the ass for ammo. Live with what you have, and if it means not shooting then it means not shooting.
As many have also said here, most of us would benefit from getting some cardio, getting sone survival training/gear, starting a garden, learning to purify water.
A million rounds of ammo isn’t going to save you if you have a heart attack or die of infection.
There’s a ton more to survival/prepping/SHTF/civil war/WW3 then hoarding tons of ammo. Take some of that money would’ve spent on ammo and spend it on other needs you may have. You’re not going to last long without clean water or food.
I know a ton of people who consider themselves “prepared” for what’s coming because they have a ton of guns and ammo, but their pantries are bare, they have no medical supplies, no ability to boil or filter water, no back up of their medication, and probably can’t ruck more then a mile.
I work for a small gun store in Texas and it is costing us .55 cents a round from the distributor. And that is if they actually send it to us instead of canceling the order… so yeah 65 cents isn’t gouging.
Yeah, people don’t understand why prices go up when something is scarce.
I bought 1K 9mm rounds at .53 per round before the election, seeing the writing on the wall. Some calibers I’m not shooting at all but holding in reserve. I check prices daily and if I see something acceptable, I’ll jump on it. This isn’t going to normalize in the next year, I predict it’s going to get worse.
People who do not prepare despite warnings DESERVE WHAT THEY GET.
Everyone needs to quit their bitching and focus on a political environment that will stop this madness AND WORK TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, no matter what it takes.
Why isn’t the market flooded with foreign ammo to make up for the shortage?
Israel and Italy are on lockdown so Fiocchi and Independence brands can’t make it up.
Brazil, Turkey, Serbia, and Taiwan should be exporting Magtech, Wolf, Wolf Gold to make record profits.
Surplus ammo and old stock should be pouring into America .
Can anyone tell me why foreign ammo is not on the shelves?
Firearms without ammunition. Like a vehicle without fuel, you can look at it polish it, listen to the radio until the battery dies , but its intended purpose its useless.
At that price,I Don’t Think So.
Then do without. The cost of components has risen as well and most, primers especially, are simply unavailable.
Unless as a reloader one has wisely laid in a supply over time and when powder, primers and bullets were on sale over the years, the only cost now is my time.
I was at my reloading store, locally. I always buy primers and powder locally, because if I order online I have to pay a hazmat fee and it is exorbitant. While at the reloading store, I asked if they had some large rifle primers, and they presented me, a mystery white box with strange letters on it and what looked like English that said “Unis Ginex Primers.” I said, “WTF is that???” He is said, its Bosnian large rifle primers. Cash hit the table, and off I went, with 1000 mystery Bosnian large rifle primers. So far they seem to work great.
I got a couple thousand ginex left in small rifle. Bought when they were on sale at Grafs a year ago, but I have to hand prime them. (which is why I still have them) They hang up in the Dillon primer tube. Same with the 3000 Fiocchi I bought last year. So now that our Popular primers are all gone – and my LGS told me check back next year. The hand primer has came out. Other than that – they all go bang ! Last time we had a big run on ammo and reloading products S&B primer became the go to and Vectan powders.
I do buy factory ammunition when it’s priced right and that is not, at least to meet isn’t.
I gather you’re not planning on buying much ammo for the next few years (at least), then?
I’m always loading, just finished up 375 rounds of 300 blackout and switched the head over to 9 mm,the only thing getting in the way of my shooting is the winter weather as of late.
But you were speaking of not buying ammo because of the current prices, not because you reload.
It is gouging when price goes up 4x but cost to produce stays the same. It labor and raw materials went up 4x, then it would be ok. I work for a gun company, and our ammo cost has not gone up 4x.
I see the economic model of supply and demand escapes you.
So toilet paper should go up four times the going rate then?
No. Supply and demand is a thing, but so is gouging.
Yes, TP prices should increase too. Price is the most efficient means of differentiating buyers. I guarantee that if TP quadrupled in price it would still be on the shelves.
This is basic economics. Price goes up as demand goes up. We don’t call that gouging anymore than when the price goes down. Do the ammo sellers accuse buyers of gouging when there’s a sale?
To the point of the manufacturer not experiencing 4x increase in cost to deliver: wait a while. If a producer is making 4x profit, costs will eventually go up and more producers will enter the market, increasing supply and ultimately driving down price. Trust me on this. I work in the oil and gas industry and this is a direct analog.
As for HOW we got here, I blame YOU AND ME! Why? For 3 years we gun owners felt comfortable that our 2A rights were safe. We stopped hoarding guns and ammo, leading to the Trump-Slump in the gun industry. Story after story rolled by of sub-$400 ARs and ammo producers shutting down to limit supply. I stocked up on 9mm over 3 Black Friday’s at $0.10-14/rd. Same with 223 at $0.15-19/rd. Many producers of ARs and ammo were unable to compete in that low price environment, and ultimately folded.
Now. The loss of these producers was immediately followed by a historic reversal of demand. The market has been thinned and the remaining producers have found that tripling their price still undercuts the competition. This is called free market economics, not price gouging. Price gouging only worsens a shortage.
Do you blame these manufacturers? Last year they were one foot in bankruptcy. Now they need to make enough profit to get back in the black, as well as store up a rainy day fund for the next price collapse.
Welcome to capitalism. Don’t like the price? Don’t buy it.
Government forced price controls are the *precise* opposite of freedom. Carry it to the extreme, then tell me you support them. That would be “The price is XX, if you charge one penny more or less (!) I will kill you.” If you think the price is too high, don’t pay it.
I understood that from business school, but around 30-35 years ago I saw it in action. With wife and young kids, I was in CA for a week vacationing from Texas, took a day so we could visit Yosemite. After sitting at a stop for 3-4 hours in a stationary line of cars with CA license plates, we finally got in with a fee of something like $5, everybody in CA spent every weekend in Yosemite, no campsites available, no nothing, be gone by sundown. Hey, one time in my life, likely the only time in my kids’ lives, and that *National* Park was useless. Make the fee $150 per person per day, so that everyone in the country has a chance to see it. Goodness, no, we can’t do that, it might actually pay for itself! Ridiculous.
It’s also called the free market, or capitalism. It’s the basis of our economy. Surprised you’re just now learning about it.
Since wealth and value are derived from savings rather than spending…
Capitalism isn’t perfect you know… Ask China…
What you are advocating is inflation, and that is stupid. Obviously, you want more taxes then, right? It’s one thing to talk about the cost of ammo skyrocketing, it’s another to say “well, that’s life”. Wrong. This stuff happens due to nothing short of greed. Not supply and demand. Raising the cost of ammo does not make it any more or less readily available, and neither would TP. It would and is only driving the prices of other items up with it. Surprised you missed that in your entry level economics class, Jim.
“Make the fee $150 per person per day, so that everyone in the country has a chance to see it.“
Yes, only the rich, quality people deserve an opportunity to see our national parks and enjoy their beauty.
Scratch a capitalist, find an elitist every time.
No Miner49, not “every time”. -> turn your statement around and and every Liberal is just a person afraid to admit he’s a socialist. And a socialist doesn’t realize he’s supporting communism. Or as the T-shirt says ->
” Socialism – Communism for slow learners” 😉
what you’ll find will be elite indeed.
Your post shows a breathtaking lack of understanding on economics, inflation and human decision-making. Best of luck.
Educate me phil, since you seem to know, how what you are advocating is NOT inflation. Please. Tell all of us. You seem to be so short sighted that you believe this all started 3 years ago, and that a buyer is to blame for inflation. If costs never went up, would it be the buyers fault for stability?
Human Decision making? What leftists part of reddit did you escape from? Think before you leave permanent comments. Criticisms like this make you look fragile and emotional.
I do know a lot about economics, but I can only lead the horse to water, I can’t make him drink.
Economics is really a study of human decision making, not money. If I can buy at price 1 and sell to you for price 2, you can be assured that’s what I’ll do all day long. That’s what ALL business does. So instead, the seller cuts me out and sells directly to you for price 2.
Inflation is a change in buying power due to a change in valuation of currency. Inflation is not the wandering of price through time, it is a direct result of interest rates and cash-printing. Look to gold as the prime example. Golds value never changes, the cash equivalent does.
Price is the result of a negotiated agreement between buyer and seller. Seller is always pushing to have a higher price, buyer is always pushing to have a lower price. If there are more buyers than sellers, the price is naturally higher.
3 years: My comment highlighted just the recent environment as a way to show that supply has been curtailed due to low/no profits. TTAG posts articles every month about increasing gun ownership based on NCIS checks month over month, going back decades. This highlights that there are more NEW gun owners. More gun owners need more ammo. If there are not more ammo manufacturers cropping up every month, then demand is outpacing supply. Price is a reflection of this. I don’t know how to make this any more simple for you.
Leftist? I’m the one advocating for free market capitalism.
I’m serious: learn about economics. You will find that artificial price controls only serve to exacerbate a shortage. I’m gonna spend $100 on ammo. At current prices I can get 2 boxes. At previous prices I could get 5 boxes. If previous prices are kept artificially, I’ve bought all 5 boxes instead of 2. Now there are 3 less boxes for you to buy at any price. This means I’ve stretched the supply chain beyond the efficient point, identified by the equilibrium on the supply and demand curves.
The difference is that now, supply has shifted left and demand has shifted right. The new price equilibrium is consequently higher and less quantity. This is described by the scientific laws of Supply and Demand.
Now: let’s take an industry that has seen explosive increases in demand. The workers’ value has also increased due to derived demand for their labor. Now they want a raise. Same with the suppliers. If the value of a product goes up, so too will the cost to produce in a perfectly competitive environment. So while it may cost $1 per produced product that sells for $4, the cost will eventually increase to a new equilibrium, thus lessening or erasing profit. But that’s where competition comes in. In the long run, another producer will enter the market if there are profits to be made. This will increase supply, leading to a decrease in equilibrium price. Artificial price ceilings serve to create barriers to this natural progression of price, leading to inefficiencies in the process. Result? Less ability for competition to move into an industry and exacerbation of a shortage.
Is this enough yet? Bottom line: price is the cart, demand/supply is the horse.
Here’s my final thought. You said you have about a years worth of 9mm. Me too. So let’s assume you would sell me some today. Keep in mind you’re selling from your personal stash. What price per round would you sell it? Not at $0.22 I’d wager, because you can’t replace what you sold for that price. If you did, you be an irrational buyer. I would then buy all of you 9mm at $0.22/rd and sell it at $0.50/rd, because I’m a rational seller.
I don’t have a lot, but I thank God I got what 9mm I got when it was only 0.27 a round shipped.
And a whole lot more .22lr for about 6.5 cents a round, shipped. But I am shooting a whole lot less than I used to. Something is telling me to hold onto what I have, and I’m listening to that little voice…
(Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean Leftist scum isn’t out for my (and our) guns and gun food… )
The best part of this is that it’s not like this conversation hasn’t been going since late-April or May yet there are still those who are surprised and yet others still in denial.
“The hardheaded always gotta see it to believe it/
But when their face hits the cement they nod in agreement…”
I think a lot of people believed (or hoped) that Trump would win re-election and were waiting for the guns/ammo market to cool down post-election as a result.
And had they been correct, they would have benefited from the windfall. They gambled and lost. Nothing wrong with taking a calculated risk, but sometimes you win and other times you lose. It’s called life.
There’s nothing wrong with betting on the future. We all do that.
But betting on Trump winning was self-evidently silly in this regard because it was the wrong bet to be making in the first place. Trump had, and going forward would have, very little say in the things driving such markets. Those decisions are made at the state level. A Trump win only meant more #resist bullshit.
A Trump 2020 win wouldn’t have changed the landscape much in terms of economics, city based violence, Antifa, BLM or lockdowns because Trump has no say in those things.
The thing that’s both scary and amusing about the road that we’re on is that all the exits go to the same basic place. The answer is to throw it in reverse and change which road we use, not keep picking exits on this one.
You think trump winning will cause prices to drop? What planet are you from? Think the left likes burning shit down now….
Just a warning, as usual some cats won’t heed it
Someone knows that track.
I got a couple hundred pounds of empty 9mm brass or more. I paid $0.02 per case back in about 2013/2014. Government scrap from the army base. They just shovel that stuff in a barrel and sell it.
LOL…just saw a 500round Winchester 9mm value pak posted. on FB for 149(!)from BassPro. Of course it’s gone but not everyone is price gouging…glad I have no desperate need!!!
Selling at market value isn’t “price gouging”.
And lowlife price gougers deserve a painful death…this ain’t my 1st rodeo slick. Remember 2013? I do. And I remember the scum(CTD) who attempted to extort. They’re still at it. A pox on YOU hal…
Price gougers are good. They keep out buyers who don’t need to buy. You commies need to understand economics.
Don’t worry your commie president will give you your bullet ration after January 20th. You might not like how he dispenses them to you.
Don’t like the price a particular vendor is charging? Don’t buy from them.
Out of morbid curiosity, though, just what is your solution to this issue? Other than saying that people who (in your opinion) charge too much for their product deserve to die painfully, or calling for a pox on those who recogonize the reality of supply and demand?
(And BTW, charging more than you’re willing to pay for something isn’t “extortion”.)
Ever sold a house? Did you list it for the price you paid? No, because you’re not an idiot, just a hypocrite.
You just need to open an ammunition factory and start profiting.
“And lowlife price gougers deserve a painful death… “
And another vote for government price controls!
That ammo isn’t the property of the person who made it, it belongs to everybody at a price I think it’s right!
Just another anti-capitalist commie, wanting to re-distribute ammo by taking it from those who have it and giving it to those too lazy to buy it themselves.
So much for private property rights…
Miner, you are the most confused person I have ever had the displeasure of coming in contact with online.
Updating ads for products not in stock is a waste of time and money. They’re in business to MAKE money, not waste it.
Depends on the company.
Many companies, for a variety of products, are telling you that you can order it but that it’s a back order for some period of time. 7 months isn’t uncommon.
But you locked in the price.
2021 is gonna be damned rough for a lot of people across the board at this point and the governments seem bound and determined to make it worse.
At this point it really isn’t that far fetched to say that the entire West is facing a very hard reset (no, not that Davos/WEF nonsense) and that improper response to that is likely to make it far worse.
People got lazy and bathed in the glory of ignorance. In doing so they elected leadership that was, at best, incompetent during the good times. Now that bad times are here we’re going to pay a price for our arrogance.
Exactly,last I read Sig ammunition was taking orders for a K of 5.56 55 gr. at their same 419.99 a case as they were this time last year.
“But you locked in the price.”
Turning ammo into a futures play.
“Turning ammo into a futures play.”
People do this all the time without realizing it, for example, this is basically what a “pantry” is in terms of food. You bought ammo for years and put back some consistently because you knew there’d be price shocks? How is that much different than an airline buying futures in jet fuel?
Realistically the only difference is that you take physical control of the asset in question where the airline doesn’t because jet fuel goes bad rather rapidly whereas ammo, properly stored, doesn’t. Sort of like buying physical gold or silver instead of stocks and bonds. Wel… with the caveat that gold-bugs are a little derpy because that’s not really a great idea but whatever, the principle is the same.
Can’t believe people here need lessons in basic economics.
When a product is in short supply, one needs to look at the entire supply chain. Every component of a finished product has a supply chain. The ability of each member of the supply chain, up to the seller, has a supply chain. When demand is unusually high, the risk of a gap, or exhaustion of supply becomes a real thing. Sellers depend upon sales in order to stay in business. When sellers run the risk of being unable to obtain supply, and face zero income, it is fair, natural, logical to raise prices in order to build a reserve against zero availability of product to sell.
So, think of yourself as a small business manufacturing and selling ammunition. You recognize that the ability of the supply chain to surge to meet increased demand is very limited (or, maybe non-existent). The the future is greatly uncertain, and your supply may be cut off because you are not a significant customer for your supplier. What do you do? Drain your inventory completely as pre-disruption prices? How long can your profit sustain your business (and yourself)? Do you “owe” it to buyers to go out of business in order that buyers not absorb a price increase? Do you raise your price (and thus profit) some amount calculated to get you through a dry, or slow, spell? If you hedge your future by increasing prices, are you gouging, or are you struggling to survive?
Sam, how is any of this surprising? You’ve been here how long?
Also, stop talking sense. It’s racist and otherwise bigoted.
“Also, stop talking sense. It’s racist and otherwise bigoted.”
OK. (picture me slinking away in embarrassment and humiliation)
Anyone remember when the last American lead smelting facility in Arkansas closed down a few years ago and we were told that it wouldn’t interfere with the production of ammunition? Yeah, no issues with production whatsoever. Anti-gunners are always playing the long game. Buying ammo should be like buying milk, do it often, even if you don’t need it.
Production is up. In many cases it’s way up. But demand is WAY WAY WAY up.
Mexico and Canada are mining and smelting as fast as they can…
Hmmm, I may get into the smelting game while I’m waiting for my mahogany crop to get some traction.
Yes, we should all think George W Bush’s EPA for making sure our air and water are clean and free of lead contamination:
“But the email is wrong to claim “Obama and the EPA” is responsible for forcing the plant to close after “they raised the EPA regulations by tenfold.” The Environmental Protection Agency reduced the ambient air quality standard for lead from 1.5 micrograms of lead per cubic meter of air to 0.15 in October 2008 during the Bush administration — not under Obama.
The email is also wrong when it says the Herculaneum plant is the “last lead smelting plant in the US.” The company says the Herculaneum plant is its last primary smelter in the United States. Doe Run and other companies operate secondary lead smelting plants. Primary plants use mined resources, while secondary plants use recycled materials, such as lead batteries.
The National Rifle Association says recycled lead “is the type most often used by ammunition manufacturers,” and the plant closing “should not have the dramatic impact that some have predicted.”
The impending closure of the Herculaneum plant has its origins in a 2004 lawsuit filed against the EPA by the Missouri Coalition for the Environment. The environmental group argued that the EPA had failed its responsibility under the Clean Air Act to review and revise, if necessary, the air quality standards for lead every five years. In 2005, a U.S. District Court in Missouri agreed and ordered the EPA to conduct such a review by September 2008.“
Mag dumps are fun but useless. Now they’re expensive as well. Maybe the cost of ammo will force some weekend noisemakers to be more discreet in what they’re shooting at.
Not me. Neighbors are probably upset about me blasting Russian steel .14 a round 9mm and .19 a round .223 but I’m the the little piggy in the brick house (literally)
Who wants to trade me a mossberg retro 590a1 for a 5000 round case of armscorr .22 I paid $202 for shipped? I’ll even throw in a box of 9mm and a free lesson in economics if you don’t whine about price gouging.
Copper, used to make brass is about $3.50 a pound. Lead is about $1.00 a pound. There are many processes that must be performed before the copper becomes a brass casing, and lead becomes a bullet. Equipment used to perform the processes cost money, that is called overhead. People are used to work the equipment. That is called labor. Labor ain’t cheap.
The plan/scam/damndemic has slowed mining and manufacturing. Scarce resources equal higher cost. Especially since the majority of the resources used to make ammunition come from overseas.
All in all, ain’t nobody gouging. If’n you weren’t prepared for this, it ain’t somebody else’s fault.
“There are many processes that must be performed before the copper becomes a brass casing, and lead becomes a bullet.”
Not many for lead. Melt raw billet into smaller billets. Smaller billets loaded into wire extruders. Wire chopped and stamped. Maybe plated for .22lr.
Brass to case is a lot more involved than lead to slugs. (I’m excluding copper-jacketed bullets here…)
I was of course, painting with a rather broad brush.
Indeed. You’ve brought up points that are looked over here regarding this particular panic.
This isn’t 2013, this is far worse. Not only are more people buying/hoarding, but the supply chain is extremely volatile right now.
This is actually the far more bothersome fact. Resources and how they’re no longer a US commodity. Not only does it effect our ammunition but a ton of other areas as well.
The copper issue is one that concerns me in particular, because I can see a future where copper is far too expensive for use ammunition, due to its ever increasing demand.
Obviously copper isn’t required for ammo, we can use steel case. Even steel or nickel cased lead bullet. But it would be a downer to not have brass/copper cased rounds anymore.
Also it’s long been a concern of mine that eventually the left would manage to tweak the environmental laws effectively banning lead ammunition. If copper is unavailable and steel (for the actual bullet) is illegal, then what can we use for ammo?
I know the marines experimented with that nylon or polymer based ammo awhile ago but I don’t think it panned out very well.
Just one of many reasons why the Left itself needs to be “tweaked.” But how to do it…there’s the rub. And does anyone really know how much time we have, if it’s not already too late?
So glad I have been self medicating via retail therapy by bulk buying Tulammo and Blazer aluminum cases since 2012. There have been enough “panic buy” moments in the last 20 years, lessons were there to be learned.
For those late to the party – suck it up buttercup!
…just realized I paid $269 for 1000 rounds of Blazer 10mm aluminum cases earlier this year… how time and money flies!
After the last ammo shortage 8 years ago, I slowly stocked up till July 2019. I have a crap ton of blazer brass 9mm, my favorite. I stocked up on 22LR, 5.56, 308 and 6.5CM. Still up to 5 years worth of ammo for me and my relatives who shoot with me. Back in the day, Ammoseek was my shopping buddy. Unfortunately, some of my shooting buddies did not learn from 2013, and now I’m sharing ammo with them, what are friends for!
Lulz told ya.
Future’s markets. Look ’em up. Ig governments across the world don’t wise up pretty quick, in six months time this will be the “good old days” price.
Of course, things continue apace as they are and you won’t care about practice ammo…
Yeah, but you won’t need practice, either! Like 15 years ago I attended a class taught by Gallagher/Tompkins, each winners of world championships with hi-power rifles, they told us they had not practiced in years, they were competing somewhere in the world nearly every weekend, each went through around 10,000 rounds a year without ever practicing.
Yeah, being sponsored has it’s perks.
On the plus side, this goes sideways and it’s a bear market for tactical gear as that shit will be all over the ground like manna from heaven. I hope these idiots running around with half a dozen IFAKs on their backs and no plates in their improperly sized/adjusted PC have decent shit in those pouches.
This guy gets it.
$0.64 cpr for generic-tier 9mm range ammo is absurd. I’ll just stop shooting until crazy people stop paying insane prices to satisfy their gotta-have-its.
How long are you willing to wait for prices to drop back down so you can go shooting again? A few months? A couple of years? Ten (or more) years?
Same here, I go back to riding my motorcycles. The range I shoot at use to fill a match in minutes now some don’t fill at all.
You should listen to the crying and like it.
We had to listen to all you and your friends in the ammo industry who were playing the violins for us after Trump got elected….”Oh we built another line and now we are losing money because the price went down so much”….”We had to fire half our staff because demand is down so much”….and it went on and on and on. It was pretty annoying, as annoying I imagine as when your sponsors and friends are now swimming in 3 years of back orders and people cannot afford to buy ammo. But [email protected] the non well off right?
Throw stones in glass houses…..get dragged
#Facts don’t care about your feelings or your political affiliation.
It’s too bad you don’t reserve some of that vim and vigor for the people who actually deserve it.
Just because you have the same politics as me doesn’t mean we are immediate friends, especially with some whiney hypocritical writing such as this.
This was a totally pointless article to do what? Make people be quiet for getting a “deal” on .22 for 14.3 cents a round.
I planned ahead. Just feel bad for my brother’s who won’t be able to stock up.
The one thing I dislike more than libtards is hypocrisy. I don’t care were it comes from. Not all of us have 2 minute attention spans as would be hoped.
1) I’m not your friend and never claimed to be. If that’s what you want then go buy a dog.
2) Going after the people who are reacting to market forces rather than the people driving those forces is misplaced energy.
Your problem here is idiot politicians trying to protect their asses, turf and power. It’s not ammo manufacturers. These kind of problems are wide-spread and getting both wider and deeper. Food, chemstocks, metals, medicines, plastics, certain electronics are already being hit… and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
I’ve had no issue getting ammo for 20-30cpr. Support your local stores not gouging websites.
Until that runs out and they restock….
Stop paying these prices and continuing the cycle. It’s not going to be fun but just stop shooting for a while or greatly cut down on the shooting. 60+ cpr for 9mm is price gouging. Big box stores like Academy near me are still able to sell it for about 35cpr. But it’s sold out immediately and then resold by price gougers for 70cpr on armslist. Trust me you will benefit from doing some cardio more than you will from getting another 1,000 rounds. Find another way to prepare yourself and amuse yourself for the next 6mo to a year.
You example is literally the definition of why price gouging is good.
“If you sell a product for too low of a price during a crisis then people who don’t ‘need’ the product will buy it all and the people who need the product will be left without.
Price gouging is good 101.”
Take gasoline in an area about to get hit by a hurricane. If the “good” gas station leaves the price low then every idiot will fill up their car, atv, lawn mower and RV. Leaving nothing for the people who just need gas to get out of town. The increased price disincentivizes flippant purchases and makes sure product only goes to the ones who absolutely need it.
I don’t disagree that PG is useful in those situations. But at some point when people just continue the cycle it’s unnecessary.
Then don’t buy what they’re selling. This is not rocket science.
People don’t seem to realize that “price” is a word we used to describe a numeric expression of “the aggregate knowledge of producers and consumers across time and space”, which in reality is an ungodly amount of data from a hell of a lot of people and also includes those “intangible” parts of the data set too.
This is why central planning cannot work.
If you’re looking for people to be angry at it’s not the manufacturers, distributors and sellers. It’s the ones who created these conditions in the first place.
And yes, I am. Very.
Zig you should have Zagged and remembered the Mark Twain maxim.. “it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to talk and remove all doubt.”
So price gouging is actually a benevolent act used to imped “every idiot” from acquiring a product they don’t actually need thereby insuring that…Let me get this exact…”..𝙢𝙖𝙠𝙚𝙨 𝙨𝙪𝙧𝙚 𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙙𝙪𝙘𝙩 𝙊𝙉𝙇𝙔 𝙜𝙤𝙚𝙨 𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙤𝙣𝙚𝙨 𝙬𝙝𝙤 𝙖𝙗𝙨𝙤𝙡𝙪𝙩𝙚𝙡𝙮 𝙣𝙚𝙚𝙙 𝙞𝙩.” How incredibly moronic.
Did you ever stop to think why someone who has “no need” for a product also has a high desire for that product?
Or how these “no need” people also are able to somehow completely acquire ALL of the low priced product, 100%, “Leaving nothing for the people who just need (it)”?
Or why “(the) idiot (who) will fill up their car, atv, lawn mower and RV.”, does not need to also get out of town?
Or even why someone in the path of a hurricane, who has :no need” for gas, would be filling up his lawn mower?
You literately have it completely backwards.
There are three groups in a price gouging situation; The Haves, The Have Mores, and The Have Nots. The Haves are in physical possession of the product. The Have Mores have enough wealth to persuade The Haves to sell the limited resource. The Have Nots, although their “need” is equal to the other groups, lacks the wealth to outbid the Have Mores and can not acquire the product or only in very limited quantities.
So no Price gouging is (NOT) good 101 for the Have Nots aka the majority of the population.
And yes, Zig, you talked and removed all doubt.
People aren’t going to stop buying even if your message could reach everyone.
But you’re not wrong about the Cardio workout. I’ve never exercised on purpose, but I have committed to being more active and healthier and making good progress.
I remember when Wal-Mart was blowing out their handgun, .223 and 7.62X39 ammo. Many on this site called for a boycott. As much as I disagreed with their policy I knew a good thing when I saw it. Picked up several hundred rounds of .45 ACP, 9mm and .44 magnum. I wonder if those guys would be so proud today.
That was my last major ammo purchase. Super cheap 5.56 and 9mm picked up as soon as they announced they would stop selling it. When I got there, a large line began forming behind me. I didn’t need it, but I’m glad I got it cheap.
I went to one and bought all the tula steel case 223 they have left for $2 a box of 20. Just under a thousand rounds. Then went to another one and bought 800 rounds of remington hollow point 45 for 25$ per 100 round box. Their loss in my opinion.
Yep I got Winchester value pak 556 cheap. Debating whether to sell it to finance a new gat. Or I may save it for the coming apocalypse😏
former, save it! It’s better than money in the bank.
LOL…just talked to a very good friend who wants to go shooting & hitting some shops for guns & ammo. Retired guy with $. Doesn’t know anything. He has hearing aids(we’re old) so I’m not sure if I should have him shoot my AR. He’s got a gorgeous Smith & Wesson 4″ revolver from the 60’s. Can’t find.38! Yeah I’m keeping that 556😏
Things are what they are. I know I’m not likely to see $10 for a box of 9mm but I refuse to pay $80 for 50 rounds of .380ACP FMJ like one place wanted. I just won’t use that caliber at the range for a while.
We will make it through this.
Sixty-four cents per round seems like a lot, but this is magic ammo. It’s managed to appear while all nine cents per round ammo has disappeared. That’s quite a trick.
Lots of commies in here and that’s pathetic.
Price gouging is good.
Saving for the future is good.
It’s not a retailers fault that you were lazy and thought bullets would keep magically appearing in gun stores forever. You had plenty of warning and you ignored it.
Quit acting like commie millennial/boomers, it’s embarrassing.
Pretty much, I have resources for the moment and a decent ways out. I am not shooting a ton either which helps but provided the world doesn’t end I suspect there will be another cycle in the ebbs and flows of the world. It may take 4-8 years to happen but it will. At that point I’ll buy more than I did this time as well probably. Like anything else you have to watch the cycles and the timing.
I’m also hoping that demand stays high consistently for the next few years as that means we’ve actually gotten some people into the gun culture to stay and in turn we’ll see capacity ramp up more as well. It will hurt and suck in the mean time but I want more people out there actively shooting and burning up ammo up with the premise that at least a percentage of them will join us as PoTG.
Price gouging isn’t good. The price is of ammo is high but it can still be found. I wouldn’t consider what most retailers are charging to be price gouging in the present climate.
People who buy ammo at the prices we’re see and then put it up for sale at 2-3x the price on GB or Armslist are gouging, and they’re assholes. I hope the depreciating fiat currency they crave so badly keeps them warm. I’m not rich but I do okay, I have numerous investments that doubled in this last year and I’ve been blessed to stay busily employed while so many others are forcibly shuttered by .gov. There is money to be made without screwing desperate people over – likeminded desperate people, no less.
“If you sell a product for too low of a price during a crisis then people who don’t ‘need’ the product will buy it all and the people who need the product will be left without.
Price gouging is good 101.”
It doesn’t do anyone any good to sell products at a low price during a crisis. All that will happen is speculators will come in and buy up all the supply. Let the speculators find the price floor and eventually things will come down.
We all have that “friend” who tells you about the fresh shipment that just came in to the gun shop but its all sold out now. Yeah by HIM! High prices keep the casual buyer away.
Right now speculators are the only way you are going to find bullets and God bless them for that.
Using your own words Zippy, see the glaring contradiction?
“…If you sell a product for too low of a price during a crisis then people who don’t ‘need’ the product,…speculators will come in and buy up all the supply… and the people who need the product will be left without….Right now speculators are the only way you are going to find bullets and God bless them for that…”
So which one is it Zippy, are speculators denying people who need the product leaving them without, or are they blessed for buying up all the supply?
Remember…”…It doesn’t do anyone any good to sell products at a low price during a crisis…”
Even the blessed speculators?
I thought he was pretty clear. Speculators are the people who buy to resale. It’s his word for what others might call a price gouger.
When he talks about someone buying at bargain prices that denies ammo from those who really need it, he’s not talking about Price Gougers or what he calls Speculators. He’s talking about casual gun owners who don’t shoot and don’t need ammo that buy what’s cheap and when the stock runs out, more serious shooters and gun owners don’t have ANYWHERE to buy.
I’m not a fan of price gougers, but I understand his argument and I REALLY don’t want government to step in and set prices either.
You have numerous investments that have doubled? Congratulations, you’re a “price-gouged” by your own definition. Be proud, not hypocritical.
“You have numerous investments that have doubled? Congratulations, you’re a “price-gouged” by your own definition.”
Whoa. No. But. Wait. No. That’s not the same. Selling securities for more than paid is, uuhhmm, investing. Buy low, sell high doesn’t apply to ammunition. Can’t. I mean, like, ammo is a inalienable right. You can’t make me pay more than I want for stuff I
want need. I mean, like, “To those in need, from those who have.” You cannot hold me personally responsible for poor preparation, poor decisions. This is, like, the 21st century.
I already have more than enough ammo for the time being, lest anyone think I’m just butthurt that I didn’t prepare — I made a couple hasty buys in the past months but most of what I have, I’ve had for a while. But people buying ammo and selling it for 3x the price are actively taking advantage of other “POTG”. Can they? Sure, I’m not advocating that anyone should prevent them. Jacob Marley was a good man of business, too. It’s all a matter of degree — I’m not giving ammo away or selling it, for that matter, and somebody out there is feeling short-changed that I have a minor hoard and they don’t. But not all investments are morally equal, even if the cash looks the same either way.
Everyone has to decide what they’re comfortable doing to make a buck. I maintain that people tripling their money on ammo in the short term are taking skeezy advantage of their fellow gun owners. My carpetbagging ancestors probably didn’t foist a worse scheme on people.
@ Phil and Sam. So “Price gouging” and “Investing” are synonymous terms? Interchangeable?
@ Phil and Sam. So “Price gouging” and “Investing” are synonymous terms? Interchangeable?
Yes. Investing is the act of buying something at what you perceive to be a low price hoping to sell it later at what you hope is a higher price. The only possible difference is being offended at the rate of profit increase.
“Price-gouging” is a BS term and implies a crime, when in fact it describes an increase in demand. Explain the difference between price gouging and investing without using the words government, legal or control.
If we are to call an increase in price “price gouging” then we should also label buyers during a sale or clearance with the same term. Both are taking advantage of a shift in demand.
Producers sell goods, buyers sell cash. Price is an agreement between buyers and sellers. Don’t like it? Don’t agree to it. The market will decide value, not one side.
This is Economics 101 stuff.
To all those asking, yes, I am good on 9 mil for at least a year. Prices might not drastically go down, but they won’t be panic buying prices either.
There is no justification for the current price of ammunition.
Who’s to say prices won’t be even higher in a year? If the Dems get both of the Senate seats up for grabs, and there’s a particularly bad mass shooting or three, I could see Biden & Congress pushing through a number of gun control bills which would lead to an increase in demand even higher than current levels.
Or taxes ammo..,say 100%…background checks for ammo…$5 each?…FOID cards…$50-100?…1 no limit per day…or month?
NFA for hollow points?
At what point do we stop allowing such actions to happen?
They won’t even have to seize assets at this rate, they will just make it cost so much nobody can afford it and those who can invest in their own private security so jobless FUDD’s and like minded Commie/Fascists/Tyrant/Racists etc etc… can come work for them and further continue the push for more control.
We all know what’s coming. The sooner we acknowledge it the easier it will be. Maybe not in January… maybe another 4 years. But 100% in our lifetime. I’m 36 and in good shape. I’d rather do it now.
And to think, all they had to do was ask for ID before voting, and in person. Maybe remove USPS, since they advise not shipping cash money in the mail, but somehow we trust them with ballots… Simple steps. Almost like it was planned.
I totally agree with you on this statement. The govt may not be able to remove the 2A, but they can create economic havoc within the industry such that gun/ammo manufacturers can stay in business, then watch as demand outpaces supply to the point that we are priced out of the market.
The only justification for a price is for someone to pay it.
Leave your manifesto with your Mosin comrade.
I’m still writing it.
Can we all just cut the crap?
The federal and state governments need to establish price controls for firearms and ammo. We also need some bureaucracy to enforce those price controls. When it comes to firearms and ammo, no one should have more until everybody has some.
There, fixed it for ya.
You forgot the part about taking from the top 1% ammo hoarders and giving it to those that sat on their azzes.
“You forgot the part about taking from the top 1% ammo hoarders and giving it to those that sat on their azzes.”
Yep. Overlooked that demographic. The elites are more equal than others.
Why introduce new gun laws , when only the rich can afford. All works out in the end for the powers that be
Something of an exaggeration. Yes, prices have gone up….but a working stiff can still afford a couple of defensive firearms along with enough ammo to gain competence.
I live 3 hrs from Canadian border where you still can by 9mm brand name ammo for $0.20. The question is: can i bring it legally across the border?
Yeah…. that would dissuade me from buying it….
Some people are so dumb they shoot themselves in the foot every chance they get….
FOR CHRIST SAKE, GROW SOME BALLS
“The question is: can i bring it legally across the border?”
“The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) regulates and restricts firearms and ammunition and approves all permanent import transactions involving weapons and ammunition. If you want to import weapons or ammunition, you must do so through a licensed importer, dealer or manufacturer. “
Isn’t the US/ Canadian boarder closed to non essential folks ?
I have enough to last for a while. Not in a big hurry to buy more with the prices the way they currently are. In another year or two the panic will likely have settled back somewhat, but it will be a bit longer than that before a box of 50 FMJ is much under $20.
It’s gouging but it does meet with supply and demand. That’s the real factor here.
I took a friend’s advice years ago and sold ALOT of my pistols and rifles. I kept 3 handguns and 2 AR’s. The money I got went to ammunition.
It’s a hoot to see free market loving self proclaimed Libertarians scream price gouging when market prices rise because of soaring demand. Retailers should have been raising prices last March to reduce demand. If they had, there would be more ammo around now. All they did was set up an arbitrage situation where speculators were buying up ammo at 20 cents that they knew they could sell at 50 cents plus a round later. People who raise prices in the face of extraordinary demand are economic heroes, not price gougers.
What f k n planet are you living on A $ $ hole??
Your attitude is what drives people towards socialism you F K N I D I O T
Tell you what creampuff.
If I had bought $20,000 worth of 9mm a year back when I only bought a few thousand rounds, for .14/ea, I would be selling it for .28/rd right now, regardless of what the insane auctions on gunbroker could make me in profit. (And I sold a few thousand at .37/rd this time, FYI, all local, I’m sure those firearms trainers appreciated being able to continue their business).
Since you don’t value me taking that financial risk, hassle of finding it as low prices as I can, storing it for a year, or going through the effort of advertising and meeting to sell it, don’t buy any from these “gougers”. Not like I’m having to pay through the nose to get quantities of primers and powder for my own use, guess that’s lost on you too.
I’m sick of this anti-capitalist whining. Go down and protest your local jeweler for gouging on gold prices if paying more for a rare commodity bothers you so much.
It must be those penumbras and emanations from the Second Amendment that say everybody has right to 9mm at 5 cents a round, eh? Tell you what, housing is expensive. Anybody who charges more than $100 sqft is a price younger. How do you like that f**ktard? Too many people are capitalists when they sell but are socialists when they buy.
Your comment tell two things about you. First, you believe you have right to other people’s property and second you are a moron.
Gouger not younger.
My only problem was getting into a popular caliber (.300 AAC Blackout) in the middle of the pandemic. In my defense, I could only do that because of a lump sum payment I had received for unemployment I was due when there was a SNAFU with my account. I couldn’t have afforded the upper otherwise.
So what do I do? I’ve traded for some ammo (.223 for the erquivalent amount of .300 BLK) and surfed AmmoSeek daily when I have some spare money, looking for the best price from a high rated seller.
As the Japanese say, “It can’t be helped.”
Right now it won’t help to get into reloading because primers aren’t available. But .300 BO is one of those calibers you pretty much have to reload for if you plan on shooting much, because even before the crazy it was usually around .50 a round even for the cheap stuff. I know Wolf was coming out with steel cased .300, so that does give hope for the future. I’ve just never come across it yet.
I bought a 8.5” nitrided .300 BO complete upper that came with a lower build kit and a SBA3 brace from PSA about 2 years ago for $330 shipped. I wasn’t convinced I needed one, but the price was just too good to pass up. I’ve probably only put about 80 rounds through it because I didn’t like paying $10 a box for ammo. I’ve got dies and a couple of hundred cases I scrounged from range buckets but I haven’t gotten around to loading any for it yet because of other projects. I had planned to pick up 1000 cases converted from 5.56 brass from a brass processor, but again there were always things I ‘needed’ more. Now converted brass is probably not even available. Maybe next year.
Same. The .300 I have is for home defense now and I have zero intentions on wasting it. I zeroed, I saved. I pretty much keep “range” visits sub 100 rounds for anything now. Really honing those “fundamentals” this year lol. My 9mm supply went from somewhat uniform to a bunch of random boxes and I don’t even know where to begin on rotation anymore.
This article only serves to solidify the “new normal”…..
It’s official, this is the old fable come true…..
The government traitors always said they wouldn’t need to go after the guns themselves, they would ban/ interrupt supplies of ammo. That is now coming to fruition….
If you haven’t invested in reloading supplies, you are not very smart…
Run out of primers yet genius??? There’s always a catch…
Yes, it’s gouging if there is a declared state of emergency. Many states have laws pertaining to said gouging. While it would be difficult to list ammunition as a “needed commodity” for us “common citizens”, law enforcement might possibly file suit (or enforce anti-gouging laws and levy fines). That would be interesting.
Profiteering is the more proper term if there is no local state of emergency but commodity prices rise due to outside forces. (The way the US profiteered before entering WWII).
While i have stocks of ammo and have not had to succumb to the inflated prices,…. how long can I last if it goes for years at these prices? And i imagine it will.
I’m glad i have some stocks and the ability to reload. I believe it does hurt the industry and the sport. Maybe less for the tacticool zealots with the need for massive mags dumps and large amounts of expendable income.
It is true that high prices cure high prices but it may have lasting effects of the industry, sport and lifestyle. Time will tell.
It is not even price gouging then. You either have the market price or you have a shortage or maybe nothing at all.
Price gouge: (v); Any price that is more than you like paying.
Not even close to correct.
You are not even close to intelligent. When limit the price that person can sell his property not only do you prevent the proper allocation of resources but you are effectively confiscating his property.
How would you like it if you were not allowed to charge more than $100 a sqft when you sold your house?
Just you wait until they start applying price controls to drugs and food.
The reagent chemical market is fucked at this point. Six month backorder on simple precursor chemicals, you want more complex compounds at reagent grade? “Uh, we can put you on the list…” is what you’re going to hear in a lot of cases.
If you can find precursor chemicals at this point it’s down to buying those to make the reagents you need and that’s if you can find what you need. And then of course you need to have people on hand who can make what you want…
They already have milk prices controlled. Dairies are the only farm operation where they are held to price controls.
Peanuts are close as the shelllers let contracts for partial yields assuming they will get the entire yield. They then hope to export the excess when prices go up in other countries. The peanut butter market consumes most of the peanuts for the domestic market. Other countries don’t eat peanut butter.
Artificial restraints open the door for corruption and collusion as people work the system.
So gouging/profiteering/price fixing are often illegal and subject to oversight. Ammo doesn’t fall into the list of commodities tracked.
Rice and beans are followed and prices are expected to increase when there is a crop shortage. There is not ammo shortage – companies are producing at record levels. There may have been some slowdown due to Covid but production seems to be chugging alone.
As there is no shortage due to raw materials but to increased demand – it is profiteering or gouging.
You realize that manufacturers operate on the future’s markets right? That’s how they hedge their prices?
What’s the future’s market look like in copper recently? 300,000 ton projected shortage for the USA next year. That’s baked in.
Then there’s the fact that what you’re saying would require some sort of bottleneck that we don’t know about. Warehouses full of ammo just not making it to the shelves? Where are they?
This is like the idiots screaming about milk earlier this year without understanding all the supply chains that fed that supply chain or any of the laws and regs surrounding it. They trumpeted simplistic solutions that were illegal.
Your problem isn’t the manufacturers. Your problem is a series of governors and mayors. Just ask the people in NYC staring down the barrel of a “full shutdown” these days.
“As there is no shortage due to raw materials but to increased demand – it is profiteering or gouging.” While making a sillier statement than even some of the outright communists, you brilliantly substantiate the case for the free market.
Is the increased demand (billions of rounds) due, as many insinuate, to life-and-death need? No – we aren’t in a shooting war domestically, and even the actual shooting wars in the Middle East have been pretty quiet.
Is it even due to an increase in the usual wants? No – the COVID Pan . . . ic has closed many competitions and ranges, made travel for hunting more difficult, etc. People are shooting LESS.
It’s due to hoarding – precisely what price increases help to control. I don’t shoot nearly as much as I want / should, but periodically when the prices were good I used to pick up a box (or a case). Now I don’t, because they aren’t. Markets behaving rationally + Customers behaving rationally = Good. Irrational customers paying the price for irrationality = Good.
^This guy gets it.
However, you have to ask another question here:
At what point are people acting rationally in an irrational system which is affecting the market you’re focused on?
If one looks at the market for malt liquor in a neighborhood I used to live in one might say the people in that market are irrational. But if one stepped back to look at the overall situation you’d realize rather quickly that “It could drive a man to drink” is not just a cutsie idiom but rather an observation of how people in really shitty situations tend to self-medicate themselves to avoid even more outlandish behavior.
I started stocking up in January 2020. I knew there would be a run on both firearms and ammo. I bought thousands of rounds and a few guns. I practice with whatever I can find now without touching the stockpile.
And I’m not selling one round.
I also topped off the pantry with dry goods, and made other preparations. I’m sorry so many people weren’t paying attention, but in my estimation, people are too trusting and not paranoid enough.
I have not bought factory ammo (unless it was .22LR or shotgun ammo) since the late 90s.
Always kept a healthy stock on hand, especially after the previous Obama admin gun/ammo runs/shortages.
With the COVID Crazy going on, been shooting air guns. Don’t laugh. I can practice pistol in the basement with the correct backstop. Or off the back deck with the rifle. No ear protection required. Very quiet. And, they have come a long way from the Red Ryder days.
I have scaled IPSC targets to simulate them at given ranges.
And, so far, I can still have 2,000 match grade pellets delivered to my door for about $60, no HAZMAT fee.
Look into it. The fundamentals are the same, and some trigger time is better than none, or burning through what stock you have on hand. A year from now, that Federal Independence ammo in the article above might be considered a basement bargain price.
A lot of truth in this post. Time is also a saved commodity in air pistols.
I got an air rifle during the last ammo drought. I haven’t shot .22 in years. I keep about a thousand .177 pellets on hand.
I’m comfortably stocked but I’m also going to forgo any IDPA, 3-gun or classes for the forseable future.
I only hope the trainers and event organizers will be there when this drought ends.
My LGS prices went from 8.99 for a box of 50 Federal to 15 for the same box. But they also have a 2 box per caliber limit as well.
Because if they didn’t arbitragers would swoop in and gobble it up. If you price under market you have to ration.
Those prices at current market value are also rationed to some extent.
Rationing commonly refered to restriction on the amount you can purchase. Rationing by price is called the market.
.308 M80 was $.80/rd when I bought 450 rounds 2 months ago. Now, it’s a $1.00+/rd.
I just got 200 rounds of .45 JHP. It’s PPU, which isn’t the best, but it was $.80/rd.
There’s a lot behind ammo prices and availability that most people (e.g. the whiners) don’t understand. I’ll not go into everything, but a short list:
1. Lead has to be mined and processed for bullets. Look up where that happens.
2. Other components must be sourced; you can’t exactly call up the local brass guy and get millions more cases delivered overnight.
3. Manufacturing facilities are limited in capacity and ability to increase production. No ammo manufacturer just has a bunch of extra machinery and space lying around unused just in case someone needs a million rounds of 9mm tomorrow.
4. Demand is elastic but supply is inelastic.
” Lead has to be mined and processed for bullets ”
Not so much. I was reading an interview with an ammo mfr exec some time back (Hornady?) and was surprised to learn most of lead comes from recycled car batteries.
And how do they get lead for those batteries?
Imports from places like Mexico, Canada, and Russia…
Took a shot at inventory back in the spring. Stopped counting at 100k rounds. Still buying, I just happened to walk in Academy when they got a shipment of 800 round boxes of Winchester 5.56, bought two. I’ll shoot again on the back 40 when deer season is over and I’m done stocking the freezer.
We’ll see how Zim reacts to unreasonably high ammunition prices after the Democrats successful power grab takes hold next year and per round tax legislation is enacted under the guise of “common sense gun safety” laws. The 200% plus ammo price increases is shameless profiteering pure and simple, and gutless enablers like Zimmerman rationalizing price gouging doesn’t disguise the fact that whether it’s so called “free market” factors or liberal tax schemes, pricing ammunition out of reach for most Americans is an affront to 2nd amendment rights no matter which bull$#it talking point is offered up as justification.
Then start manufacturing ammo and selling it at cost or less. Let me know how long you can stay in business.
this is how supply and demand works
anybody that doesnt understand that and didnt start pre purchasing/hoarding ammo in 2019 and especially early 2020 after covid hit when it was cheap and widely available clearly wasnt paying any attention to all the warning signs that were pouring in like from a fire hose that pointed to us being exactly where were at now
the widespread violence thats going to be visited upon our country by monumentally evil and godless people next year regardless of who wins the election was on the radar since at least 2018 for anybody willing to pay even the slightest amount of attention to it
this is clearly a teachable moment
I started hoarding ammo in 2012, which was the previous time that ammunition went extinct. Some of my friends thought I was crazy to buy so much. Well, maybe I am crazy, but there was nothing crazy about buying all that ammo.
Bull$#it! Price gouging in times of a crisis is evil no matter how you slice it. Whether it’s $25 for case of Walmart bottled water during a major power outage after a hurricane or $35 for a box of 9mm FMJ ball ammo during a so called pandemic or aftermath of a stolen election, it’s reprehensible to exploit items people need to survive. I also stocked up while ammo prices were low, but find no gratification as Sound Awake obviously derives, and expresses with asinine “I got mine f- – k everyone else” gloating commentary.
Sounds like you think you have a right to someone else’s property. You are a communist.
How much gasoline do you have stock piled?
Your [email protected]$$ obviously doesn’t know that folks who price gouge bottled water or gasoline in the aftermath of a disaster or severe weather event are arrested and prosecuted because the profiteering of those items is a crime. Shouldn’t be any different for ammunition!
“Meh, cuz the government said so!” You can’t claim independence while hiding behind the government.
I understand and appreciate economics.
But it is interesting when I hear or read dealers lying to their customers about their costs.
Here is a simple fact. The wholesale price of ammunition and reloading components is up less than 10% over the last year.
I have access to wholesale pricing for ammunition. Its essentially unchanged. It is the dealers who are marking it up exorbitantly.
Which is fine. They were sitting on their hands losing money when Trump was elected. Now its go time for them.
And yet we can’t find primers or powder. Thanks for highlighting the fact that if price doesn’t follow demand the result is shortage.
How do you lower prices? Boycott purchasing . . . when no-one except maybe the police are buying, they’ll lower the price to sell the huge overstock from production. I know, it’ll never happen, because it is impossible to get some people to quit buying stuff . . . speaking of out of stock; I was at a retail gun shop today, they have 17 handguns in 8 – 54″ glass cases, that hand two rows in each case, or 16 levels . . . basically, 1 handgun per shelf. Normally there would be over 220+ handguns in that space! They had ZERO revolvers of any type. Looked like half the items left were 22 caliber, either LR, or WMR (PMR-30, was one in the case. One was an S&W SA 22LR pistol, another looked like a SA Walther LR, and the only other one I could see from about 10 feet away was a SA Sig 22LR. Too many people waiting in line (only 2 allowed at the cases at a time); covid restrictions!
They are gouging. I work for an FFL. prices from places such as RSR, Davidson’s and Sports South ARE still close to pre pandemic prices.
You’re correct! If the same laws applied that makes profiteering on essentials following a natural or man made disaster, the unreasonable and greedy 200-300% markup of ammunition would be a crime. Zim and the other losers chiming in with this “supply & demand” line of bull$#it would be squealing like pigs caught under a gate if Akhmed down at their local Stop n Rob jacked up gasoline prices 300% during a power outage after major storm damage.
Poor analogy. Gasoline is continually consumed. It’s a staple. Whereas in the case of ammunition, unless one is planning on being the protagonist in the next remake of “Red Dawn”, a few boxes of ammo are enough to achieve competence.
Does it suck if you shoot a thousand rounds a month? Sure.
“a few boxes of ammo are enough to achieve competence.”
You are very, very incorrect. A few hundred repetitions of anything once and then never again, never achieved competence in any skill for any human being.
Boy did you ever reveal that you absolutely don’t know WTF you’re talking about. Basic marksmanship & defensive firearm technique is a perishable skill. Only someone lacking in both would say something that damn dumb. And FYI, “a few boxes” at unreasonable jacked up 65-70 cents a round 200-300% over wholesale markup prices a significant number of working stiffs out of achieving or maintaining even minimal “competence”. How much is “a few boxes”? 6?8? Your talking “a few hundred” dollars just for practice rounds. Ammunition profiteering should be a crime just as it is for the profiteering of any other essential commodity.
Maybe Czar Bernie will lock in prices on everything in our soon to come “Great Reset” communist utopia. Including all salaries.
If you stop to think about it, that is the only logical conclusion to the thought that prices can’t follow demand.
Ted: here’s an experiment. Sell me (a stranger) some ammo. I want 1000 rounds of brass-cased 223 for $240 and I’ll pay shipping. Deal? Why not? Because it’s worth more, either in dollars or in use. If 223 tops $5 per round you can bet some personal stashes will start opening up.
Ps- I’m not buying now and neither should you. If you think prices are too high you’re right. Don’t reward high prices by buying.
Price gouging should be punishable by imprisonment….
I wonder who to blame for such traitorous behaviour?
Probably the ones who control the banks and media…
And for the louse who try to justify this behavior, you are the problem with humanity… that’s not how you treat your fellow man….
It’s crap like this that push people towards socialism.
There’s a lesson for you…. how to treat your fellow man 101…
Some people never learn until the common man has had enough, then we destroy the scum who take advantage of others, then we assume calm can resume but over time these louse start the rot all over again…
You people NEVER LEARN
“the ones who control the banks and media…”
Why be coy? Who are you speaking of, exactly?
“Some people never learn until the common man has had enough, then we destroy the scum who take advantage of others”
My, that is big talk….
I knew “those people” controlled all the money and the media, but the ammunition supply too. Now I am really mad. /Sarc.
Everyone in the US is born a “common man”. Some of us work hard and make something of ourselves, while others are too busy lashing out in envious hatred of anyone who isn’t trash. It’s entitled POSs like you that make armed self defense such a great idea.
Everyone in the US is born a “common man”.
LOl. Buddy,… If you believe that,… you’ll believe anything.
You’re right: I was so misled by that guy who told me my own life story, and those of countless colleagues I observed firsthand!
I worked my way up alongside some guys from well-off families too – every one of whom lived within his own (quite meager, at first) salary. News flash: buying kids yachts and palaces never grew or maintained a family fortune.
As a matter of fact – I really see this as a subset of a larger phenomenon, where major life events or issues put forks in our road – the vast majority of hopeless spoiling parents are other middle-class achievers who rose up from modest backgrounds; who fail to internalize and pass on the life lesson “All those struggles and challenges made me who I am today” but instead arrive at the conclusion “I’m never going to let him do without like I had to” and inevitably end up raising entitled POS brats.
I recently purchased two boxes of 9X18Mak for my spouse, $65 with shipping. We both agreed this was astronomical and it’s cheaper to feed a horse then feed a firearm.
Going through my ammunition inventory and upon opening several of the ammunition cans I was astounded that I was purchasing 30-06 Federal Game [email protected] $10.89 for twenty.
With a little time and a whole lot of Biden I imagine wooden arrows will become $60 a piece.
So is now a good time to start selling some of the 10k+ rounds that I’ve been stockpiling for years? Of course, I’d like to sell near the peak…
You can tell who really believes in freedom not by how hard he beats his chest and shouts “shall not be infringed.”. You can tell by whether he supports a person’s right to dispose of his property at the price he chooses. This discussion reveals who are the closet communists.
This is the future…All the days of cheap ammunition are over…Especially when they implement the European style lead bans and the green new deal…The communist took over without firing a shot..
The fat lady hasn’t sung.
None of you young kids (under 60) remember Carter and the gas shortages of the late ‘70s. Gas was $1.25 a gallon, but THERE WASN’T ANY!! Purchases were limited, lines stretched around the block, and you could only buy on certain days based on your license plate number. People that drove for a living had to borrow alternate number license plates,and schedule in extra hours waiting in gas lines.
Since then, they let the gas prices go where they will, and it hit five bucks a gallon at some point and places. So supply ramped up. When was the last time you couldn’t find gas? And prices are now around two bucks a gallon. Counting in inflation, gas is actually CHEAPER than it was in the ‘70s.
You either believe in the free market or you don’t.
Aluminum cased, yuck
I’ve never seen a shortage quite like this one. Even during “Ammogeddon”, back in March/April, I could get .40 at reasonable prices, and all the 9×18 Mak and really good quality .32 ACP I wanted on the cheap. Not now.
I’m thankful that I bought what I could when things were better. The only caliber where I’m really set is .22LR, but I can (read: “will have to”) make do with what I have and (very) occasional purchases during the “new normal” for ammo.
Ammo availability and prices are also a major concern for well versed and prepped users: If I don’t have a particular cartridge in my inventory, I’m not going to buy a gun that requires it. I really like the Stribog SP9A1 but I’m not going to throw myself into the masses trying to find ammo at “current market prices”. There’s ammo to be had if your willing to pay what’s demanded, for limited quantities and selection while getting assessed shipment fees for each of these restricted low quantity orders. No thank, my otber stuff goes bang just fine.
If you look closely at firearm prices, you’ll see some are dropping from their recent panic buying high. Who doesn’t care about higher ammo prices to feed “range toys”? Why add another nonessential mouth to feed?
I about died when I saw this:
That is INSANE!!!
The free market is a two-way street. Retailers would do well to remember that their may be a price to pay when they burn their customers.
Wait until you see gun prices once Joe and Kamala tighten the screws on ownership.
And that’s exactly what’s about to happen. If the Dems don’t take control of the Senate and are unable to pack the Supreme Court with additional liberal Justices, they won’t be able to pull off outright Australian style gun bans & confiscation, so they’ll price ammunition out of reach for the masses through creative tax schemes.
To whomever is pocketing all our hard-earned cash for 5x overpriced ammo: FUCK YOU! Your time will come and also to everyone else like you.
IF -Pat is complaining about PSA’s price last year??? Evidently, Pat hasn’t looked at Gun Broker prices lately, I’d jump on that $31.95 a box ammo right now.