Oklahoma Gun Rights Group Challenging Attempt to Stop Constitutional Carry

Open carry revolver holster

Dan Z for TTAG

From the Associated Press:

The Oklahoma Second Amendment Association is challenging efforts that would put on hold a new permitless carry law until voters weigh in on the issue.

The law passed earlier this year will allow Oklahoma residents to openly carry guns without a background check or training. The new law takes effect Nov. 1, but efforts are now underway for a statewide referendum on the measure.

The Oklahoman reports that the association filed a legal challenge Monday to the wording of the referendum petition, calling it inaccurate and misleading. Second Amendment Association President Don Spencer called the statewide vote a waste of time.

“Citizens of the state of Oklahoma have been waiting on this for over 112 years and it’s time for them to get their rights back,” he said.

But the measure’s backers, who have until 5 p.m. Thursday to collect nearly 60,000 signatures to get the measure on the 2020 ballot, dismissed those claims. State Rep. Jason Lowe, a Democrat from Oklahoma City, said Oklahomans think the new law is dangerous and that they deserve the opportunity to vote on it.

“I say to the naysayers, I say to the individuals who cite the Second Amendment, who indicate they believe in the constitution, what’s more enshrined in the constitution than the right to vote?” he said.

The debate comes in the wake of mass shootings in Texas and Ohio earlier this month, and as lawmakers nationwide push for proposals , including “red flag” laws, aimed at removing guns from people who are considered to be dangerous.

Dubbed “constitutional carry” by its supporters, the bill would allow most residents 21 and older to carry concealed or unconcealed firearms without a license. Exceptions would include anyone in the country illegally or those convicted of certain crimes. Firearms would still be prohibited in certain locations, including public buildings, schools, professional sporting events, casinos and bars.

Currently, those wishing to carry a firearm in public must apply for a license that includes a state background check and completion of a training course.

A similar bill was vetoed last year by Republican former Gov. Mary Fallin amid opposition from the business community and law enforcement.

comments

  1. avatar pwrserge says:

    Plenty of things are more enshrined than the right to vote. As it should be. Voting is a privilege and a duty, not a right. You want to stop the socialists? Make it illegal to vote if you get more in cash handouts than you pay in taxes.

    1. avatar The Cold Backhand of God says:

      Under the age of 30 and still living at home with your parents?
      No vote for you.
      Not paying a mortgage or property taxes?
      No vote for you.
      Have you voted Democrat within the last 40 years?
      No vote for you. Ever.

      1. avatar Guesty McGuesterson says:

        Your username sounds like a nickname for a supertech weapon, lol.

        “Is this that new cold plasma rifle that’s been under R&D development?”

        “Yes it is, sir. In the lab we call it ‘The Cold Backhand of God'”.

        1. avatar The Cold Backhand of God says:

          Actually, it’s the label name of a Canadian microbrewed Irish stout from British Columbia
          https://www.crannogales.com/products/back-hand-of-god-stout

          Come get some, eh?

        2. avatar Guesty McGuesterson says:

          Color me intrigued. I likes me a good pint ‘o the true stuff. Might have to see if I can locate some at my specialty store near me.

      2. avatar G. W. says:

        I was over 30 and lived at home with my parents, that is how they could afford their food and medication, and I would dare say that is the case with a lot of kids that still live at home.

        1. avatar Yellow Devil says:

          We’re you living at your parents home or your home with your parents? Big difference.

      3. avatar George Washington says:

        Sorry…. Just because you got suckered into a mortgage doesn’t mean only you should vote….I would say if you’re currently in collusion with a bank, then YOU shouldn’t be able to vote….. Unless you OWN your property…
        Doesn’t sound so fair now, DOES IT?????
        I SWEAR SOME OF THE COMMENTS YOU MORONS MAKE SOMETIMES REALLY PISSES ME OFF…
        I have had my CCW license for well over a decade and probably own more than most of you millennials….
        So take your STUPID ideas and keep them to yourself…. BUDDY

        1. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

          Honestly wouldn’t have a problem with that as it would filter out transient migrators and irresponsible subprime borrowers good catch.

      4. avatar Arc says:

        This rules me out. I suppose we can throw in White, male, and with kids for added measure on requirements to vote.

        Four years 0311, almost 30, came back to the farm/homestead. Boo hoo, I live with my parents.

    2. avatar Hank says:

      That and we’re not a democracy. We’re a republic. There’s a very big difference.

      1. avatar Rad Man says:

        What’s more enshrined in the constitution than the right to vote someone else’s rights away?

      2. avatar Vinny says:

        At the state level a yea on CC by district rep votes may outnumber the nays with each district represented equally. Now the public vote (weighted in-favor of a high population district i.e. Oklahoma City metro) will probably null and void all other district votes in the assembly. I call this mob rule and the socialists use this tactic (ballot measure) very effectively.

  2. avatar 41mag says:

    This democommie is conflating the issue with voting.
    It was passed and signed into law wasn’t it?

    Where’s Joe R. with his whimsical one-liners

  3. avatar John W Weber says:

    Stop dreaming there will never be constitutional carry, really do you think in states like New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts would consider constitutional carry. These 3 states put up so many obstacles now and it’s up to their discretion on who they feel has a right to carry. Take cities like Baltimore and Chicago they don’t want thugs being shot back at.
    Stop dreaming gun owners keep stepping backwards and losing our constitutional rights bit by bit piece by piece. Like Chuck Schumer said when Bill Clinton was president ” relentless legislation until guns are hammered into submission. No mention of AR-15s just all guns.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      Johnnie,

      You’re not seeing the long game here. As more states sign on to Constitutional Carry, it becomes more common, and the argument against it loses strength. This is exactly how Federal Judge Benitez applied logic when he issued the injuction back in March against CA’s two-decade-long ban against mags capable of holding over 10 rounds. He said such mags are in “common use” across the nation and enjoyed by many other Americans, which undermined Sacramento’s argument that they’re dangerous.

      Again, as more states move toward freedom, it opens the door of possibility a little wider for those of us in other states.

    2. avatar Dan W says:

      Fuck what those states want. The Feds have the power to force them to recognize the permits of other states under the full faith and credit clause.
      If they can force Alabama to recognize a gay marriage licence from Vermont they can force NY to do the same for a carry permit.

  4. avatar strych9 says:

    Um. The people did vote. They voted for the elected representatives that passed a Bill into law.

    Some just don’t like that outcome so they’re looking for a way to veto it after the fact.

    1. avatar Baldwin says:

      You mean like it’s been since 2016?

  5. avatar Brian Emmert says:

    Why is Lowe even in office? The Constitution say …”shall not be infringed.” If he wants to be an effective member of government he needs to stop going against what the Constitution says and stop trying to have us vote on what is already our RIGHT.

  6. avatar I Haz A Question says:

    While I’m certainly for expansion of the recognition of our rights, there’s a flaw in this new OK law.

    Any non-resident must follow the gun laws of his/her own home state while within Oklahoma. This means that if your state requires a permit to conceal carry, or even have a license to simply open carry (Texas?), you must continue to behave under the same restrictions.

    For those of us who live in Los Angeles County, where we cannot open carry due to state law and CCW permits are non-existent, this means we cannot bear arms in any fashion when visiting the Free State of Oklahoma. At least NV and AZ allow us to open carry while within their states, but OK does not.

    If anything, people should be protesting to make the law ever freer-er for all American citizens who are on OK soil.

    1. avatar Mercury says:

      I couldn’t confirm that the law has such a clause, but if we assume it does then that clause is necessarily unconstitutional. A state can’t pass a law saying “it is unlawful for a resident of X state to act in a manner which is unlawful in X state, while visiting our Y state” for several constitutional reasons. Chief among them, however, is that under Article 4, Section 2, Title 1 (and as decided by the US Supreme Court in 1823) a state may not grant “privileges and immunities” to their own residents which are not afforded to non-residents. The state law of the non-resident’s home state is inconsequential, as the law actually in question is of the state they’re visiting and it applies differently to both residents and non-residents and to non-residents from various other states.

      Interestingly, between this clause and its associated precedent, and the “full faith and credit clause,” it should be an absolute slam dunk of a case against any state charging you with unlawful posession of a firearm if they do not issue permits to non-residents and do not “honor” your permit from your home state. But this, I suppose, illustrates the fatal flaw in our laws introduced by Marbury v. Madison. A state or even the federal government can pass any law they like, no matter how blatantly unconstitutional (“all conservatives shall be stripped of their property” for example) and if lesser courts uphold it (the ninth circuit would in this example) and the Supreme Court won’t hear it there is nothing any other (legal) body in the US can do about it. Judges were not intended by the framers to be the final source of legal authority in the US, and the quagmire we’re faced with today is the direct consequence of Congress (the intended final legal authority in the US) allowing them to declare it so without opposition.

      1. avatar Mercury says:

        That should have been “Article 4, Section 2, Clause 1”, not “Title 1”. Oof.

      2. avatar sparkyinWI says:

        This ^^^^ You have it right. The court was never intended to have the power of final and ultimate say, not by the Founders. Congress was intended to have that final power only. However like with many other things Congress refuses to do its duty and other branches like the Executive and Judicial step in.

    2. avatar rt66paul says:

      What?! Allow Californians to carry concealed? Gavin just might mark his speedos.

      1. avatar Mark N. says:

        Right now, the sheriffs (and some city chiefs of police) are the CCW issuers here by state law, and some, such as the sheriff of my county (with over 10,000 licenses issued) are pro-2A . Unfortunately, licenses are only good for two years. I am waiting for the proposed law that will make all licenses state issued instead, so that the DOJ can start denying almost everybody a CCW, just like Hawaii. I don’t think the sheriffs will take that lying down, but it won’t matter.

  7. avatar Gadsden Flag says:

    Yikes! If I were going to open carry in Oklahoma I would at least stick my revolver in a Tom Threeperson’s holster and hang it on a belt that didn’t come from the local Cowboys ‘R Us. Seriously, look. The bottom of the belt is sagging to the bottom of the belt loop. At least he’s wearing Wrangler’s.

  8. avatar Phil in TX says:

    Unfortunately for the citizens of Texas, our legislature didn’t even get to vote on Constitutional Carry. It was blocked in committee and never got to the floor. Be thankful that you at least got it passed and support those that are fighting to kill it.

    Phil in TX

  9. avatar Phil in TX says:

    Wait. I should have read that before I posted it. I meant to say support those that are trying to prevent it from being killed.

    Phil in TX

    1. Yep and I can’t wait to see a real conservative challenge Bonnen for his seat! He was looking for any excuse he could find to kill our CC bill. I’d love to see that useless Rhino get voted out!

  10. avatar Casey Parker says:

    Here in Oregon any ballot measure that is passed can be overridden by legislature and a crooked governor.

    So much for the people’s vote.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      Or in CA, by a single judge. I present to you our now-infamous Prop 8 defining marriage, which passed by a 60% margin but was stopped by a single individual in a black robe who didn’t agree with the several million Californians who passed it.

  11. avatar Biatec says:

    Referendums are used largely to abuse people. It’s direct democracy. It’s European bs that needs to end. yes a Referendum can be good but I find the negative far outweighs the positive. It’s always used to check what if the voters still don’t want gun control or a tax hike or some other tyranny.

    It’s always worded poorly as well. I have to always carefully take a long time making sure i read it correctly by reading it multiple times because they phrase things in ways where it’s yes means no and no means yes.

    “Should your representative oppose a tax increase on blah blah” I’m not doing the way they word these justice. It’s so counter to how you read them and think.

    1. avatar strych9 says:

      It varies from state to state but my big issue with some of them has been that they’re not part of the regular voting cycle. That means people need to be motivated to vote on that issue which in many cases means the proposition can be passed based solely on which side wins the turnout when turnout is quite low.

      That means passing/overturning something is a pretty low bar in some cases.

      1. avatar Ing says:

        And then you get the progressive billionaire’s club carpet-bombing the voters with multimillion $ ad campaigns and buying the result they want (see WA state initiatives 519 1639).

        Voter initiatives sound like a good thing on the surface, but in practice they’re a very, very bad idea. If it can’t pass the legislature — which was the case with gun control in WA for decades — there’s probably a good reason why it *shouldn’t.*

        If they must exist, then they should be submitted to the legislature upon a successful referendum. That way the people whose job it is to pass laws and figure out whether and how new laws can be implemented can do the thing we elected them to do. If they refuse to pass it, then we can do what they’d have to do: regroup and see if we can put it to a vote again.

    2. avatar GS650G says:

      Democracy is two wolves and a chicken deciding what’s fo dinner.

      1. avatar George Washington says:

        Liberty is the well armed chicken contesting the vote 😉

    3. avatar Hank says:

      Referendums are tyranny. Laws are not to be made via popular vote.

      1. avatar sparkyinWI says:

        100% correct!

  12. avatar Mack The Knife says:

    Was the accompanying photo taken at a Weight Watchers meeting? You definitely don’t want to make the mistake of taking the last donut.

  13. avatar enuf says:

    If your gun is too heavy and drags down your pants, please consider:
    1. Lose some weight.
    2. Tighten your belt.
    3. Buy a proper gun belt, and tighten it enough.
    4. Well, you could always wear suspenders and a gun belt ….. 🙂

    1. avatar David Bradford says:

      “Well, you could always wear suspenders and a gun belt ….. ”

      Yeah, pretty much my only option. Somewhere in the last 15-20 years I seem to have misplaced my ass. Straight shot from my lower back to the back of my knees. So it’s a shoulder rig or suspenders with a belt. I am too old and not cool enough to sag like them young punks do.

      1. avatar daveinwyo says:

        Same. Sucks.

        1. avatar enuf says:

          Yup, getting old is a real pisser. I’m there too!

      2. avatar Mark N. says:

        Hell yeah. It’s gotten so bad I have a hard time keeping my pants up even without a holster hangin on it.

  14. avatar MauiMatt says:

    One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”
    – West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

  15. avatar Vlad Tepes says:

    Not requiring training on what the law allows in a self defense situation as well as basic safe gun handling is a prescription for disaster but when did the Far Right ever have any common sense about anything.

    1. avatar Guesty McGuesterson says:

      That’s an unusually short comment from you. Are your meds running low?

    2. avatar Hank says:

      Far right to you is anyone to the right of pol pot.

    3. avatar Baldwin says:

      Omygosh! Adults, adulting without training! And the missed opportunities to collect fees and impose endless hours of bs class time! This is not gonna end well.

    4. avatar Vlad's dad says:

      When the boy was in the 6th grade, I told him it was time for him to start dressing himself in the morning. He protested and said it was to complicated for him. I told him to just use a little common sense. He said he did not like the way it smelled. When I pointed out the difference between sense and scents, he looked confused and said he could not put his clothes on by himself because he did not have any pennies. I took “Reason” down from it’s hook and told him to take a bath and get ready for school.

      He got out of the tub, grabbed his underwear and put it on his head, then he marched out the door and down the street to the bus stop. To this day, he still does not understand why the other kids were pointing at him and laughing.

      1. avatar Hank says:

        😂 these get better and better!

    5. avatar Anonymous says:

      Not requiring training on what the law allows in a self defense situation as well as basic safe gun handling is a prescription for disaster but when did the Far Right ever have any common sense about anything.

      In other words, you are making a variation of the “blood in the streets” argument. Many other states have already passed constitutional carry and empirical evidence proves contrary to your assertion.

    6. avatar George Washington says:

      When will you libs ever wake up????
      You’re not EVER taking my rights away…. EVER…… YOU GOT THAT? EVER!!!!!!

      MOLON LABE!

  16. avatar daveinwyo says:

    Live in the free state of Wyoming.
    I don’t have a problem with open carry though I don’t OC.
    Do have a problem with OC during hunting season.
    Duffus types put on the biggest guns on the market w/cammies, wrong belt, wrong holster and usually the wrong gun.
    Kind of makes the rest of us uncomfortable. Can he shoot that thing? Can he actually hit anything? Is he a wanna be Rambo?
    In states working for constitutional carry the worst thing to do is dress up like Rambo and scare the panty waisted soy kids and granny goody two shoes.
    Use some discretion and be responsible. A smaller gun is less scary to the wimps.

    1. avatar George Washington says:

      Here’s your first tip of the day….
      NOBODY CARES IF YOU THINK I CAN “HANDLE” MY WEAPON…. YOU FUDD….. PATHETIC…
      IT’S USUALLY THE FUDDS WHO SHITE THEMSELVES WHEN THE SHTF….. YOU NO DOUBT FIT THE BILL….. MORON

      1. avatar daveinwyo says:

        @GW
        Sorry that I upset you.
        A fat guy with cammies and a BIG gun and other inappropriate gear is not necessarily a threat, but can he Really use it correctly?
        Yes, his right TKBA is just that, but get real, would you trust the guy to hit a target in a crowded environment? How about him and his buddies at huntin’ camp just “practicing” popping rounds off (you know, one of the 4 rules).
        Again, sorry I tripped your trigger, but me thinks you might fit the above.
        If so, and that makes me a fudd, so be it.
        BTW, urinate vertically on dangling cordage.

        1. avatar daveinwyo says:

          PS; all caps is a form of screaming. Not much good on a written post.
          Just shows your maturity level. Kinda like a 2 year old.

  17. avatar Anonymous says:

    But the measure’s backers, who have until 5 p.m. Thursday to collect nearly 60,000 signatures to get the measure on the 2020 ballot, dismissed those claims. State Rep. Jason Lowe, a Democrat from Oklahoma City, said Oklahomans think the new law is dangerous and that they deserve the opportunity to vote on it.

    You already voted on it. It was voted on by your representative who was elected in your district.

  18. avatar Anonymous says:

    I say to the naysayers, I say to the individuals who cite the Second Amendment, who indicate they believe in the constitution, what’s more enshrined in the constitution than the right to vote?” he said.

    This is a republic, not a democracy. You already voted on it. It was voted on by your representative who was elected in your district.

    1. avatar enuf says:

      ^^^TRUE^^^

      Often a good deal less than satisfying, but true.

  19. avatar UpInArms says:

    Article IV, Section 4, US Constitution: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, …

    A republican form of government is a very specific thing, and it does not include direct democracy. Ballot initiatives that translate into legislation are direct democracy and are therefor unconstitutional.

    1. avatar enuf says:

      We are a form of a Republic (public ownership of the nation) and a Democracy (rule by the people). Specifically we are a Constitutional Federal Presidential Representative Democracy. It is equally correct to call us by a variety of general terms such as “Democracy” or “Republic” or “Constitutional Republic”, but some are more explanatory than others.

      Voter Initiatives are a form of Direct Democracy. As long as these are limited to regional questions and are not used to elect anyone, I’ve no real complaint with it. It is a form of check and balance upon a non-performing legislature, of which we have many in the many states.

      There are abuse of this. Such as outside money, voter initiatives bought for by special interests from afar. That is wrong and should be criminal.

  20. avatar Aleric says:

    Kentucky has had Open Carry since the state was founded and its written into our Constitution we also just removed the need for a Permit to conceal carry. Yet we don’t have massive shoot outs or incidents. But of course the same criminals who will break the laws still do, only now more people can protect themselves and its needed since our state was flooded with ILLEGALS 10 years ago.

    1. avatar Greta van sustren says:

      You’re telling me….. Lol
      I live in Louisville, so you can imagine how important it is for me to be able to carry concealed…

  21. avatar DCChristian says:

    The aforementioned clause about non-Okies having to go by the laws of their state does apear in the final bill wording. I think we can get that changed by an amendment later. I’ll work on that. This OK bill does have some good stuff: If you carry into most marked “no gun” zones, and no one in charge asks you not to, you’re fine. Only if you refuse and are formally charged is there a problem. There’s also some pre-emption protection. And places of worship are OK-to-carry zones. LE can’t require you to tell if carrying or to show your gun without cause (evidence of other crime). This is a good small step in the right direction (no pun intended) for Oklahoma.

  22. avatar Matt in Oklahoma says:

    They are failing to meet the requirements and even if they cheat and do they will lose badly in the vote. The only one who will really lose is the taxpayers funding the special election.

  23. The Demo-Authoritarian party NEEDS to end! They and their ilk are always at the bottom of “Anti-American/Anti-Freedom initiatives!”

  24. They most likely get THEIR “voter signatures” through “Dead Voters, ILLEGAL 🚫 ALIENs, ANTIFA RIFF-RAFF, and Astro-turf groups…”

  25. avatar kap says:

    red flag laws plus war veterans equals good bye guns! especially if you got PTSD

    1. avatar daveinwyo says:

      Yep.
      Best policy “don’t ask, don’t tell” and if you MUST use the VA this applies even more.
      Also, don’t forget some of these dims want to take your guns if you are on Social Security.

  26. avatar bryan1980 says:

    Petitions that abridge God-given rights shouldn’t see the light of day.

  27. avatar BV says:

    What’s more enshrined in the cotus than voting?

    Might want to check the numbers you damn idiot!

    Voting wasn’t even a protected right until we screwed up later and made it so.

    But! Right behind Free Speech is the right to be armed to protect it.

    I swear these morons are completely uneducated….

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