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LaVoy Finicum (courtesy

26 January 2016

Pacific Patriot Network – Oath Keepers – III%

Pacific Patriots Network – Official Statement for Immediate Release

On January 26, 2016, Ammon Bundy Ryan Bundy, Shawna Cox, Brian Cavalier, Ryan Payne and LaVoy Finicum were involved in a traffic stop between the town of Burns and John Day, Oregon. They were on their way to a meeting with local ranchers. Ammon Bundy, as well as the passengers of his vehicle were stopped, arrested, and taken into federal custody by the FBI. We can confirm that one man has been shot and taken to the local hospital and that another was shot and killed. We can also confirm that separate from the traffic stop, both Joe O’Shaugnessy and Pete Santilli were also arrested and taken into custody . . .

It has come to the attention of PPN that many individuals are responding to this news as a ‘Call to Action’. The Pacific Patriots Network is issuing an immediate “STAND BY” Order to all those who are mobilizing to the peaceful city of Burns, Oregon. We will not pursue any action until all of the facts have been pieced together regarding the traffic stop and the arrest of Ammon Bundy. During this time, cooler heads must prevail. We do not wish to inflame the current situation and will engage in open dialogue until all of the facts have been gathered.

Again, we must reiterate the current standing order. No mobilization of any kind is to take place until every piece of speculation and hearsay have been verified or dismissed. We will maintain the high road and continue to communicate with federal officials until a complete time line has been developed. In light of recent events PPN continues to support a peaceful resolution to the occupation of the refuge. As more information is made available to the PPN it will be released accordingly and via the appropriate channels.

Pacific Patriots Network Media Team
[email protected]

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    • calm and reason always belongs with the people of the gun. We cannot be losing our heads and giving those that want to be american subjects and not american citizen crowds a rallying point to convince the uneducated sheeple to vote their way.

    • Now is the time to attack, but, we do it at the ballot box. We toss out incumbents, toss out career politicians, and we financially support good constitutional candidates at the local, state, and federal level. I’m so sick and tired of people saying “my vote doesn’t matter” It sure as hell does matter. Bernie Sander won his first election by ten votes. Ten stinking votes. Had ten more solid constitutional voters went to the polls that day (instead of sitting home), Bernie might never have gotten to where he is today.

      Until these people fear us at the ballot box, they won’t fear us at all.

        • Pretty well actually. If Democrats kept a majority in the House and Senate the past 6 years, you can be sure you would now be subject to significantly more firearm regulations/restrictions. Congress is currently completely dysfunctional and inept, but the silver lining of that is nothing ever gets passed, including any significant gun control laws.

        • The battle isn’t just in Congress. The battle is also very local. In many places people vote for their, CLEO, AGs, town leaders. Recently the town of Bedford, VA. hired a new town manager. One of his first acts was to allow local government employees to conceal carry as long as they had a legal CHP. Recently, my county voted for a new sheriff. In Virginia the CLEO signs off or denies the paperwork for a class III firearm. How about jurisdictions where the elected CLEO comes out and takes the position that they will not enforce bullshit gun laws. How about the states that are proposing that they will not be subject to bullshit presidential directives.

          The left in this country has been successful in advancing their agenda for the last 50 years because they’ve gained control over the local governments. This bubbles up and over time affects the federal levels. We’re going to lose the cultural and political debate over guns if we continue to expect immediate federal action. We need to remained focused on the core issues and not get side tracked with stories like the recent standoff in the wildlife refuge.

        • @m4570d0n

          True, few laws get passed. In general, that’s good. But they keep funding the executive actions they were elected to stop. No, Obama has not wrought as much damage to the USA as he would like. But he’s done far more damage than he would have been able to do if Congress didn’t give him funding.

      • That you think the current state of affairs can be fixed by voting is amazing. I am referring to nation wide,not just Oregon. If we had a just and moral people in power,or aspiring to those offices,yes,there would be a chance it could be fixed peacefully and by voting.
        There is an endless list of wrong and down right evil acts by those voted in and those appointed by those in power. Aside from a rare occurrence, where do you see justice done ? Where do you see those in power or in control ( think law enforcement here) fear being found out and pursued by the justice system ? Yes, you can name some names,as can I. But, those names you bring up,just answer one question with them. Are they a majority,or a very small percentage of the provable/suspected offenses ?
        With out a strong moral code,there is no fix. Voting will not do it. You are a simple and deluded person to believe it will. 200 years of voting… whats been the result ..improvement, or continual erosion as a nation ?

  1. The truth of the matter is that open rebellion of any magnitude is a messy business. Without absolute video evidence that there is a government cover up nothing is going to happen, and maybe not even then.

    • I supported Cliven Bundy. that was defensive in nature. Ammon Bundy, not so much because that was offensive in nature. And I do not believe we are at the point were we need to attack the government. I certainly hope we are not at the point.

      • But it wasn’t defensive in nature.

        Bundy signed a contract with the BLM, and just 13 moths later he violated that contract, stopped paying the lease agreement, and continued to graze his cattle on public land (for free) for 2 more decades.

        He never once showed up to court the 3 times he was sued.

    • “Unsuccessful rebellions indeed generally establish the incroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.”
      -Thomas Jefferson

      I think he’s saying if you rebel, you better win. “honest republican governors” are in short supply since Lincoln died.

  2. This used to be a website about the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns. I don’t see how this Wildlife Refuge standoff really pertain to any of the above. Sure, these guns are involved, but I don’t the situation with the Bundy’s strongly connects to the mission of this site. Could connections be made, sure, but they aren’t strong enough to relevant to this site. The situation with the Bundy’s is a law enforcement and Constitutional problem – not a gun problem.

      • Not every single instance of government involvement is a conspiracy against the 2nd amendment. In the grand scheme of things – yes – Constitutional issues are gun issues. However, by our community making EVERY government issue a gun issue we’re isolating ourselves in that corner of the room where people in the middle refer to us as “gun nuts.” There’s a war brewing for the hearts and minds of people in this nation and if we side with the militias in most instances we’re doomed. There are proper channels to address Constitutional issues and unless that issue is strongly and directly connected to the 2nd amendment, I would prefer to see it elsewhere.

        • WHAT militia are you talking about? The slur of the libtard “intelligentsia” and the news media?

          If you’re a legal adult citizen of the US then YOU are part of the militia.

      • Right Wing paranoia reigns supreme. The real truth is that the Government was dealing with a bunch of armed Thugs and Terrorists that were raping and exploiting Federal Lands for their own greedy profit. The land belongs to all the American people not just the greedy exploitive few who in the past destroyed vast amounts of American flora and fauna for their own personal greed monger gain. They got what was coming to them. Good riddance. It had nothing to do with guns or the Second Amendment. Even local people were telling the Government to wipe the thugs out. As the German Nazi’s used to say. You will obey the law “or else” and everyone knew what “or else” meant. Now the Terrorists know what this means as well.


          You are completely clueless about what terrorism is, how and why the land under discussion is federally owned, the relationship between the federal government and the people who actually live there and make their livelihood on those lands, and the degree to which anyone who doesn’t live there has any reasonable investment in the management or enjoyment of those lands.

          You just like calling certain kinds of people terrorists.

        • I don’t know if this is master level sarcasm, given the use of nazis and equating the federal govt to nazis; or if you inadvertently, through ignorance, made the point that the federal government is working just like the nazis used to. Hmmmmm

        • jlp. You’re not even an american citizen. But if you were, you would be considered a subject, You are just another “useful idiot” as one of your idols once said. Stalin knew of what he spoke.

          As it is, the war against your own people in western europe is coming to the next stage as your compatriots in the international socialists movement open the borders to the barbarian hordes, (otherwise known as Muslims immigrants) and they will help create the crisis to give the elite another reason to increase governmental power and control.

          Your own destruction, that you helped to create as another “useful idiot’ in pushing overt hatred and vilification of your european culture through “multi-culturalism”, is almost complete. I only feel sorry for you as you will see your country and your culture of “tolerance” subsumed in the maw of the Religion of Submission.

          Submit, or be beheaded.

          • I would suggest you get some metal health treatment immediately. And by the way what proof have you that I live in Europe or that I am not American? eh? I find your ranting’s really quite bizarre in regards to the fact that anyone who does not agree with your conservative political or racist beliefs is somehow from another country or the immediate cause of the downfall of Western Civilization. Sorry Jethro but despite your paranoia I do not see Europe with its influx of invigorating immigrants or America with its Democratic party suddenly causing the Apocalypse or the next Zombie attack. I am still waiting after all these years for the “Domino effect” to come into play LOL.

          • Without more hard evidence on if anything did happen and by exactly who my answer would be an emphatic no.

        • Yep jlp. I feel sorry for you. But in the end, people that hate and loath themselves, that fear freedom; will be continue to embrace the cult of societal enslavement and cultural suicide that is multi-culturalism and progressivism. You and people like you, will be just another foot note in history of another failed belief system.

          Those that love themselves, that take personal responsibility, that do not fear what it takes to be free, will see the root of your belief system, and reject it. It will be those people of any race, creed or ethnicity that embrace life and not death,that will be writing those footnotes of history.

          • Wake up and open a History book, not even a particularly well written one will do.

            1. Multiculturalism: America was founded on it and thrived.

            2. Progressivism is a broad philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancement in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to improve the human condition and since you reject it I suggest you go back to living in a cave with the rest of the Troglodytes who believe Global warming is a left wing conspiracy.

            3. Socialism:. Every industrialized society in existence today is Socialistic to one degree or another including the U.S. Ever here of Social Security, or Medicare or Medicaid or aid to education or school lunch programs all of which the Conservatives want to destroy.

        • You’re funny jlp. Maybe in a progressive history book. This country was founded as a “melting pot” . E pluribu Unum, From Many One. Multi-culturalism was a recent invention, by the progressives.

          And communism and all of it’s spawn such as socialism, marxism and progressivism was a hated idea for most of this countries history, until the prgressives, starting with Roosevelt, started the down ward slide of our country with the introduction of Social Security, and then the growth of the nanny state in the sixties.

          But you prove my point. Socialism, like Thatcher said, only lasts as long until you run out of other people’s money. Which we have. We are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar to pay for all of that wonderful socialism with trillions in debt as a result.

          It can’t and won’t last. We are heading for a major economic collapse as a result.

          Like I said jlp. Your belief system is based in enslavement and death. Those that recognize that will embrace freedom and life. We will abide once you and your death worshiping ilk are gone. We will have a major clean up, but the world will be a better place because of it.

          • America would have an excess money to spend on socialistic programs if it would have followed Europe’s lead at the end of WWII and with its wealth could of easily outclassed the European social programs. And what was Europe’s lead? They mostly stayed out of wars of rape, conquest and pillage choosing to spend their precious tax dollars on their own people as it was felt it was a nations duty to care for its people and not its greed monger billionaires who would gladly walk across bloating corpse’s of working class people that had died of disease due to lack of medical care or of starvation. It is no surprise that the U.S. went Bankrupt long before its first war of conquest after WWII, Vietnam, was even over. The resulting false economy of war that sucked it dry of funds resulted in a massive depression in the 1980’s that came perilously close to a total collapse of the U.S. economy. Now the endless wars in the Middle East have sucked trillions of tax dollars down the shit hole of war and accomplished nothing but bring about a war of terrorism on both the U.S. and Europe. Bush the 1st admitted at the start of the 1st Gulf War that “America’s security is dependent on the flow of oil from the Middle East (translation I and my fellow Billionaires will control the profit of the oil fields of the Middle East). Did this Moron even realize that oil does no one any good sitting in the ground and the Middle East has to sell their oil to survive economically. I ask you did you see Japan during that time period invade the Middle East when they have no oil fields at all?

            When America spends a whopping portion of its tax dollars on the military (53 per cent by conservative figures) the result is economic stagnation, the infrastructure collapsing killing people with bridges falling down and people driving on unsafe roads. America falls farther and farther behind in the economic race because its children are unable to afford a higher education and either do not even attempt to enter institutions of higher learning or go bankrupt just trying to graduate with debt that will never be paid off and that will plunge them into endless serfdom and poverty while the rest of the much more civilized industrialized world gives its best minds free education which in turn has beat the hell out of us economically.

            I cannot forget the “supposed” words of Mari Antoinette “If the people are starving and cannot afford bread then let them eat cake”. The Billionaires in America have become so out of touch with the fate of working class people that many people are starting to ask “When will we have a French Style revolution and get rid of all of these enslaving Billionaire parasites”?

            Whether we are speaking of the 1st Industrial revolution or even the second industrial revolution which forced even children to die sweeping out chimneys in Britain or die horrible deaths in America factories or be crippled for life while working there without a day going by when both children and adults lost hands, feet and eyesight and were regarded by the Billionaires that owned such sweat shops as mere chattel to be sacrificed on the alter of corruption and blind greed is now reminiscent of what the American worker is going through today, i.e. forced to work as many as 3 part time minimum wage slave labor jobs which enable them to still qualify for welfare payments just to keep them from freezing to death in the winter.

            This is your idea of a Capitalism Utopia, for the rich that is, certainly not for the working class people of America who are just beginning to realize that their greatest enemy has always been Capitalism and their salvation a good strong dose of civilized European style Socialism.

            As Bernie Sanders has stated we have less than 1 per cent of the population (Billionaires) controlling 95 per cent of the wealth and the corruption has gotten to the point where just as in the French Revolution the people have been pushed to the point that they can no longer live like civilized people or even physically survive.

        • “jlp says:
          January 27, 2016 at 17:01

          1. Multiculturalism: America was founded on it and thrived.”

          No, it wasn’t. It was founded on individual liberty, anti-tyranny and Judeo-Christian liberterian philosophy, roughly.

          “2. Progressivism is a broad philosophy …”

          Blah blah blah. Progressivisim is just a new name applied to the old one, liberal, that itself was used to push away the bad connotations of the words socialist and communist. Everyone believes in progress, to state that it is only the ‘enlightened’ statists who do is just more horseshit.

          “3. Socialism:. Every industrialized society in existence today is Socialistic to one degree or another”

          Yea yea yea. Conservatives believe there should be a government, but that it needs to be severely limited. You are looking for a state that provides all to everyone, this is a dangerous fantasy, one that is responsible directly for the deaths of untold millions. And you whine and blather about school lunches. The conservative wants to live in a society where all are able to work and provide for their own damn selves without the state taking so much productivity away from the people that they can barely afford to feed their own children.

          What you support is slavery, slavery of the mind and of the body.

          • at 17:01

            1. Multiculturalism: America was founded on it and thrived.”
            No, it wasn’t. It was founded on individual liberty, anti-tyranny and Judeo-Christian liberterian philosophy, roughly.

            Brother where did you attend school at. There are so many statements by the founding fathers that the new democracy would be founded on the complete separation of church and state that it could easily fill a large book as the founding fathers did not want anything to do with a repeat of the endless European religious wars of Catholics killing protestants and protestants killing protestants. A nation founded on Judo-Christianity was the very last thing the founding fathers wanted and they stated that emphatically in their writings over and over again.
            “2. Progressivism is a broad philosophy …”

            Blah blah blah. Progressivisim is just a new name applied to the old one, liberal, that itself was used to push away the bad connotations of the words socialist and communist. Everyone believes in progress, to state that it is only the ‘enlightened’ statists who do is just more horseshit.

            Now your denying Websters definition of Progressivisim since when did you go into the business of publishing a new Dictionary.

            “3. Socialism:. Every industrialized society in existence today is Socialistic to one degree or another”
            Yea yea yea. Conservatives believe there should be a government, but that it needs to be severely limited. You are looking for a state that provides all to everyone, this is a dangerous fantasy, one that is responsible directly for the deaths of untold millions. And you whine and blather about school lunches. The conservative wants to live in a society where all are able to work and provide for their own damn selves without the state taking so much productivity away from the people that they can barely afford to feed their own children.
            What you support is slavery, slavery of the mind and of the body.

            You had better wake up to reality the deaths you speak of come about when people starve to death and live under bridges because of a purely Capitalistic society rather than a more humane Socialistic Society that does not let that sort of obscenity happen. As a side bar when in the 1970’s there was a large influx of Russians on the east coast of the U.S. And they saw people living under bridges whereas in Russia everyone gets a place to live they said “My God what kind of Country did we come to that would do such things to human beings.” More than ¾ of the Russians after five years actually went back to Russia. They said that the plethora of consumer goods was great in America but the almost complete lack of a social safety net made America a place they could not leave fast enough and they did. These people unlike yourself had experience living in both economic systems, they knew what they were taling about while you can only imagine in your fantasies what other cultures are like to actually live in.

        • ” More than ¾ of the Russians after five years actually went back to Russia.”

          Dude, I have many friends who lived in the USSR before it was Russia again. Do you really believe the bs you are spreading?

          • I suggest you start watching educational Cable channels maybe you would learn to look past your super patriotism that is completely blinding you to reality.

        • And this nonsense about people dying under bridges in the US has to be responded to. Do you even understand math? Have you ever heard the term gulag or do you think this is some fabricated mythology created by Dick Cheney?


          “the Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer. Then there are the lesser megamurderers, such as North Korea and Tito’s Yugoslavia.

          Obviously the population that is available to kill will make a big difference in the total democide, and thus the annual percentage rate of democide is revealing. By far, the most deadly of all communist countries and, indeed, in this century by far, has been Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his crew likely killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 through December 1978 out of a population of around 7,000,000. This is an annual rate of over 8 percent of the population murdered, or odds of an average Cambodian surviving Pol Pot’s rule of slightly over just over 2 to 1.

          In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987.”

          To be fair, which you really don’t deserve given the amount and the level of incoherence and just plain insanity contained within your rants, we have to observe that no country is perfect, the US among them. Could our society do better? Of course it can.

          No country on the planet has created more wealth than the US in the history of all mankind. Our poor people are richer than anywhere else, if you are poor in this country you are not denied health care – our hospitals are mandated to never turn someone away due to lack of insurance or means to pay (indeed this is bankrupting many hospitals leading to other problems in the healthcare industry but that is another topic).

          You are so favorable on European socialism I have to ask why don’t you just go there and live and be happy? There will be no guns, no gun violence, and you will not have to worry about anything at all, the state will provide for you. You are so hateful of the US constitution and so in love with Europe why don’t you just stop whining and go on over there?

          Or better yet, why don’t you move to one of the real socialist paradises, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba? Put your money where your mouth is. Mind you, these places are desperate poverty ridden shitholes where crime and corruption is rampant, food and other consumables are in short supply and most of the population would love to escape to someplace free, like the US (China being an exception due to its adoption of a quasi-capitalist industry and large and varied population).

          • Look .308 do you even understand that Socialism is an economic system not a political one. Let me give you some simplistic examples so even you can understand this post.

            1.There are many South American Countries that are Capitalistic but are murderous dictatorship.
            2. There are many European countries that are Democracies but are Socialistic.

            You must be able to understand that confusing an economic system with a political system is ignorance in the extreme. Go back to school and study history and political science before you make a fool of yourself on a public forum. If you had had any reading comprehension you would have been well aware I was comparing economic systems not political ones. Am I getting through to you yet?

        • I read what you wrote jlp and all I can think is how pathetic.

          You are a slave begging your masters to give you all that you need to sustain your life. “Social safety net”? No, you are talking about the chains that you beg your masters to place around your wrists so that you can be “safe”.

          But that has always been the difference between being free and being a slave. A slave has all of their needs met by their master, they have a “safety net”, but they have to obey their master to receive it. Being free means you take the risk and the responsibility in providing your own sustenance, because you are your own master.

          And this is why the progressives almost all demand that we the people give up our guns; because the definition of a slave versus being free is those denied the right to KABA and those free to carry a firearm for self-defense. Progressives understand at a deep level that what they provide with their “saftey net” is the chains of slavery, and they demand that their slaves prove it by giving up their right of self-defense by the bearing of firearms.

          You are slave jlp. And those that beg for their “safety net” are slaves as well.

          So once again, you and your ilk in promoting socialism are promoting enslavement and ultimately the death of the culture that fights for the “right” to be enslaved.

          • If we ascribe to your twisted philosophy which allows anyone to steal Federal Land for profit then I too should be able to move on to Federal Land and construct a business to make profit such as a gambling casino, house of prostitution, a church, preferably a Mosque, to shake up the local yokels, and laugh all the way to the bank as I would be squatting on land that really belongs to all the America people.

        • Oh jlp, I notice you do not deny my proposition that you and your ilk are slaves. You bring up that we have not even addressed. That of the occupiers of federal land and their own grievance.

          No jlp. You cannot redirect the central point of this entire debate. You are a voluntary slave, begging for servitude from your master, the state. Bow down slave, for you would rather have the certainty of a meal and a roof over your head, rather than the knowing as a free citizen, that you are the architect of your own journey.

          You will live in the grey and lifeless place of a subject, with just basic survival. You will never know the thrill of being fully alive, to know the thrill of victory, or the bite of defeat, on your own terms, as a master of your own fate.

          You will bow down and give your soul and freedom to be a slave, for a mess of pottage.

          Go slave, with the only certainty that your master will discard you as a bit of trash, if you no longer serve his purpose.

          • Tell me how are they treating you at the metal health center? You seem to be off your meds today as your rants are really getting bizarre. Do you ever go back and read your own rants? Its starting to get scary.

        • “You must be able to understand that confusing an economic system with a political system is ignorance in the extreme. … Am I getting through to you yet?”

          I’m tempted to ask you your definition of a political system and a economic system, but I know it’s pointless.

          An economic system is created by laws, laws are created by political systems. The two are but two sides of the same coin.

          And this conversation has long become tedious, save your pixels responding to me for someone else.

          • Go back and read my post. I mistakenly thought even a Moron could comprehend my explanation, I guess in your case I was wrong.

    • This has everything to do with morality, politics, and culture (which you say are permissible subjects on this site). Go home, Fudd.

      • Thank you.

        Sometimes I think the Fudd-ish among is as bad an enemy as the outright anti’s. I’m reminded of the town’s Mayor in the original RED DAWN as an archetype for selling out.

        • They’re worse. They cozy up to us, but break ranks when the air gets too foggy for their delicate sensibilities.

      • Ammon Bundy was an insurrectionist though. I voice my insurrection at the ballot box and will continue to do so until I realize that it doesn’t work.

      • Meanwhile violent riots and protests by thousands in several cities against Wall St. or police which resulted in millions of dollars in property damage is called “activism”.

        • You make a good point but too bad there was not really thousands rather than a handful of people who did protest and remember they did not do vast amounts of property damage or threaten people with guns. I think the anti-gunners would really chew us up on this one. Too bad also they protesters did not bring about change to Wall Street.

        • Actually, OWS is responsible for millions of dollars of damage. Try again with a little less communism.

    • Ethics, morality, politics, strategy and danger. At the very least these issues apply, ergo~qualifiers for TTAG.

    • Yes, and this site is very supportive of the 2nd Amendment. Which routinely preached about here that it is to help keep the federal government from going tyrannical and destroying liberty. (numerous founding fathers support that idea) Bundy taking up arms to protest the land grab by the Feds (for what some tinfoil hat wearing people thinking was because Hilary selling the mineral rights to russia, china or iran) may or may not be in line with those goals.

    • “ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns”

      Point taken. I am also a reader and I disagree with you, I think this situation does need to be discussed and is directly related to ethics, morality, politics, culture, strategy and dangers related to guns – and the second amendment.

      The state is on attack with your firearms and self defense rights in its sights, so to speak. If you don’t see this I’m not sure where you are looking for your news.

      You may think that the occupation of this outbuilding is ill advised and dangerous itself, I certainly do. But the state response to this, and news of what occurs I think is very relevant.

      Oh, and they are not a militia. This is an inflammatory term used in this situation. I am wondering why you choose to use it.

      • We are correct by having the point of view that federal government, especially under Obama, has overstepped its authority. The correctness or wrongness of this discussion doesn’t matter. What does matter is that if we continue to paint ALL actions of government as being against the 2A we’re going to lose peoples’ support. This matters because when it comes to local elections, especially where people are voting for their LEO, AGs, town leaders…etc. they will may not consider the point of view of “the gun nut” if they keep reading stories like this. By keeping this site strongly connected to the mission statement and not muddling it up with stories that are loosely connected to guns, gun rights or the like we strengthen our position in this national debate.

        • “What does matter is that if we continue to paint ALL actions of government as being against the 2A we’re going to lose peoples’ support. “

          Good grief. Read the comments here on every story like this RF posts. There are ALL sides represented, up to and including outright, hardcore Progressives on occasion.

          TTAG’s role in this is to provide a platform for discussion. You are trying to shut that discussion down with your complaint.

          TTAG is not an “echo chamber” for any one opinion – especially on stories like this. There are people that call Ammon Bundy an idiot and saying that Funicum got what he deserved. There are others saying the .gov overreached.

          And, there are still others saying “wait to see what the evidence shows.”

          For your “complaint” about the editorial policy on stories like this to have merit, the posting of the story would be about NOTHING else except a very, very narrowly defined subset of what the actual discussion here (in the comments) is about.

    • Listen – the entire point of the 2A is to eliminate the monopoly on force that the STATE has traditionally exercised. At the farther end, yeah, it can promote a degree of lawlessness, but, man, looking back at the history of the 20th century which our host, RF, has a pretty good grasp on, I gotta go with giving folks the ability to stand up and, yeah, oppose, the STATE.

      (As an aside I have noticed recently TTAG has really backed off on censorship on comments. It is admirable. So much of modern discourse is watered down. We have to be able to NOTICE and DISCUSS things.As some Russian dude said, live not by lies).

      I have not been following this very closely, but when citizens are actively opposing the STATE (which is inherently part of the core of the fundamental right of a free person to be armed) it goes to the heart of what this website is about.

      That being said, I would like a review on the RIA “Babyrock” .380.

      Keep up the good work, guys.

  3. The problem is that the average citizen is unaffected. In this age, unless it affects the wallet of the city folk nothing will be done. The monster is out and it will have no limits until we are the United State of America.

    • “In this age, unless it affects the wallet of the city folk nothing will be done.”

      Naw, it does not even have to affect wallets anymore. It’s even more vapid than that.

      If it does not affect the airing of “Dancing with the Stars,” “Big Brother” or the Superbowl, no one will care.

  4. The Terrorists got exactly what they deserved. What gives them the right to steal Federal Lands to exploit for their own glutinous profits. Federal Land belongs to all the American people not just exploitive Greed Mongers. They will do if they have their way what they have done in the past which was to annihilate any fauna or flora that gets in their way of blind greed and profit.

    • Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 of the United States Constitution:

      “To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of Particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings”

      All lands that the Federal government holds that do not fall in the categories listed here are being held illegally. As the Feds do not own the Refuge, should be given back to the states. It’s not possible to trespass on property the owner does not legally hold in the first place.

      • I would say even if the Federal Government respected States Constitutional rights (which it never has and never will) that the Terrorists were then illegally invading State property and raping it illegally.

      • Naw, jlp is not even an American. He is obviously Western European. International Socialist of the first stripe. He’s just another “useful idiot” that has helped to destroy his own European culture by pushing multi-culturalism.

        Little does his masters realize what they have done in their arrogance, after they have opened the door to the “Religion of (submission)Peace”, in their own bid to initiate the next stage of the destruction of the nationalist state. Muslims have fourteen hundred years of successful history in taking over any culture they are allowed to enter, with very few exceptions. We here in the states might avoid that fate; but western Europe is almost certain to be part of the next Islamic Caliphate. Demographics don’t lie.

    • Take a chance and move to Europe. I heard Norway and Denmark are wonderful places to live. Live happily.

      • The solution to Americas problems is not to desert America but to bring America up to the civilized standards of Norway and Denmark. By the way you are right as Norway was recently voted as one of the best places in the world to live in and the Norwegians satisfaction with life there and with their government rates the highest in the survey.

        • Well, pretty sure one of these things is not like the other, buddy.

          Scandinavian countries were, traditionally, racially homogeneous and mono cultural. So, yeah, maybe in a way, way, smaller, close knit society you can make it work, but in the US, come on, man, that’s just insanity. Mexican immigration basically caused tons of Cali hospitals to close. Pretty sure with the coming Muslim immivasion Europe will be dealing with the same thing.

          So, if you want European style health care it stands to reason you want the US to be like the way Europe was pre-immivasion. You know – weiss.

          Why is you raciss, bro?

          Shit – White Leg storm bringers coming. Follows Chalk – yer useless.

          JG, out.

          • Do you realize you just gave justification for National Health Care? If hospitals did indeed shut down by the dozens (which I highly doubt) they would not have done so with a National Health Care program. When conservative racist Morons scream we should not provide health care to illegals the resulting germs are not racist as they kill everyone so denying health care results in conservatives saving a penny on health care and at the same time signing their own death warrants where all the money in the world does them no good in the grave. Pure Conservative Genius would you not say? Again, save a penny today and lose everything tomorrow.

        • Yes, you can have a NHS under certain conditions, but not the ones that exist in the US.

          You know who was really into Nationalized everything: The Nazis. Why are you a Nazi.

          Also – the train is fine.

          • Please elaborate on why you think National Health Care would not be feasible in the U.S. other than voting out the Republicans who are prostitutes of the Drug ad Health Insurance companies, so that it could pass Congress

        • Human communities work from inwards out: family, clan, tribe, nation, etc. What you espouse only works, and not very well, for whatever it is worth, in mono-cultural environments with a high degree of trust, i.e, Scandanvia. The free market does way better in allocating scarce resources and tends to work better in places like the US that are very fragmented culturally.

          • More of your twisted racist crap couched in your bizarre blather about economics. Now just what in the hell does a fragmented culture have to do with a business making money eh? Does it matter whether a factory has its population all homogeneous with faces painted black on the right side and white on the left side of the face versus another society with faces painted white on the right side of the face and black on the left side of the face mixed in with people of the first group? What matters is that employed people are far less likely to hate each other because of their imagined differences or start race wars when a country has full employment with high paying decent working class jobs.

            Now let me give you an American example so even your racism might sit up and take notice for once. In our biggest cities in the 50’s and 60’s when high paying manufacturing jobs were there just for the asking and you often got hired the same day you put a job application in it was actually quite safe in most of our biggest cities to go out at night and not worry about being robbed or murdered. And do not deny this I lived through these years. The break down of law and order and the break down of family life and child rearing all came to pass when the people lost their manufacturing jobs and a race of people grew up in poverty which never new what it was like to have a job and in many cases even a low paying one that was full time. Crime increased and competition for what little remained of decent paying jobs led to wholesale discrimination and hatred by those who where discriminated against. Economically desperate people then result to a life of crime and violence, divorce rates soar, children grow up without both parents and society starts to disintegrate, a perfect example of 21st century America.

            If you were not completely ignorant of European Society and had actually lived there or at least visited there for more than a few days you would realize that Europe is not the homogenous society that in your ignorance you imagine it to be. I have seen even in the smallest and poorest of European countries a mixture of so many races that I was almost dumbfounded that they were no more homogenous than the U.S. is today or was yesterday. It is even much, much more dramatic in the richer European countries as it naturally would be because of the higher paying jobs located there.

            You have really went over the top on this post both in your twisted racism and ignorance of European society as a whole. Totally appalling.

        • Heh – listen you be a cuck troll, or just, you know, autistic leftist, but one day, perhaps, in John Cusack style, you will hold yer boombox above yer head and eliminate all the boiled goose eating core Americans.

          My gut feeling, though, is that the New Canaanites will prevail.

          Because War. War never changes.

    • Hello, troll… I suppose next you’ll tell me that under Bernie’s tax plan my costs will go down, right?

      • Actually Conservatives cannot see past the nose on their face. They are so stingy and cheap they would rather go bankrupt tomorrow rather than spend a few pennies more on taxes that would fund true National Health Care. Ever wonder what is going to happen to you when your health fails and you can no longer afford medication because your crooked corrupt insurance company ruses to pay for you medications because you have reached your “cap”. This does not happen in civilized European Countries. Bernie will finish what Obama started and that is to achieve true Socialist National Health Care which the rest of the civilized world has enjoyed for decades and decades.

    • So ranchers who raise your food are annihilating all flora and fauna for blind greed.

      I bet you’re chomping on a Big Mac right now.

      Or, maybe you’re a vegetarian. BTW, what do you think happened to the flora and fauna that used to live where your soybean patties grow now?

      • If your going to rape Federal Land then you have to share all your greed profit with every American not just your own bank account because you do not own Federal Land. If the Feds agree to let you use it then its legal but to just barge on to it and rape it for your own profit is illegal. No amount of right wing propaganda justifies stealing something that does not belong to you, rather it belongs to others i.e. the entire American Population.

        Just maybe If I would want to use it for hunting and your illegal crops are underfoot I would tramp right on them or if your illegal cattle grazing resulted in some irate cow trying to kill me I would have every right to shoot it down because the animal was illegally on Federal land and threatening my life. Or maybe I will hire a bulldozer crew so I can put up a gambling zone or lots of houses of prostitution if it was legal in that state. Or maybe if I was religious build a Mosque on it. After all if you can rape the land for profit so can I right? I think you can see how out of hand stealing land soon becomes when everyone figures they can get in on the profit at the expense of everyone else all of which have the right to enjoy it as well in its natural condition.

        Now that makes sense and even if you are morally bankrupt.

  5. Ok, unfortunately an event like this has to take place to demonstrate the true nature of groups like the “Oathkeepers” and “Pacific Patriot Network” etc., etc., Just a buncha’ weekend warrior butt-buddies sheepishly waiting in line for your turn to be eliminated. Just internet based, money-making “clubs”. Listen, you donkeys just told these remaining folks at Malhuer to “Stand By!”. Let me interpret this for those poor people at Malhuer: “Oathkeepers to Members on Malheur Wildlife Refuge Standoff (After Police Shooting): “Your on your own. Stick your head between your cheeks and kiss your a** goodbye!”. But don’t we look good in our Oathkeeper jackets and hats. We look so tough. We’re even rocking Oathkeeper tattoos. ooohh we’re so coool. Oathkeepers are so infiltrated by Government agents. A solid 40% of membership are g-men/agents. “No More Free Waco’s” LOL. That’s just a fancy catch-phrase that these camo-wearing broke-backs say to each other as they put camo paint on their face to go hunt rabbits.

    • Oathkeepers showed up to Bundy Ranch.
      Oathkeepers showed up to protect Ferguson MO

      I suggest that perhaps Oathkeepers may agree with the ends, but they disagree with the means being used by Ammon Bundy in achieving those ends. I am not a member, but I know I disagree with those means despite being sympathetic to achieving those ends.

    • The Oathkeepers are primarily drawn from the Police and Military. They’ve lain their lives on the line before and believe it is still worthwhile to do so. I would take them seriously.

    • Stop being a misogynist! /sarc

      The women and children should stay. This was a peaceful occupation until the feds turned violent. They should have no fear of death or dismemberment by their own government.

      Their lives, their choice.

      • Depending on the age of the children they have no choice. They should stop using children as shields.

        • You always have a choice. Here’s a wacky idea, put the APCs back in the garage and talk it out before a lot more people on both sides get shot?

        • I’m sorry but young children have no choice, and if these guys want to shoot it out go ahead, but remove the children. If two groups of adults wish to kill each other that’s their decision, the children in the middle should be allowed to leave. I do not approve of any acts of aggression on either side, but if they mean to have a war they need to make the children leave.

        • If you think those children won’t be used as hostages and propaganda tools by the Feds, you’re delusional.

        • They are already being used as shields by their parents. They’re stuck between a rock and hard place, I’d rather they not be full of holes though. A good parent would have never brought children to the armed seizure of a government building, especially one so poorly executed and planned as this.

  6. The only thing they should be organizing is how to remove the Oregon Gov. from office in the next election. Her pressure to the Feds has lead to this.

    • The majority if the state wanted something done. The locals overwhelmingly want these people gone and have repeatedly asked them to leave. The occupation was mostly non-Oregonian people using a small town far from their own homes as a soapbox. There is nothing about this that is going to come back negatively on the Governor.

  7. Yikes-good to see we got some new trolls. Of course this should be on TTAG. Or would you leave it Huffpoo?

  8. Ohhhh, now that it’s getting serious Y’all Quaeda is saying to “stand by”. 3% my ass. Just more of the 97% of the 3% that talk out their ass then over react then violate due process and ignore the justice system and think that a non-shooting war against their government will stay that way. Talk about the stupidest bunch of people ever to sully the good name of rednecks.

  9. John Brown’s…moral conviction was right against salvery, but assaulting an armory for weapons wrong and brought the wrath of the government. JB had fortitude to act, not the logistics, leadership or enough followers willing to die for the cause.

    Words on paper mean little, even confrontation on a roadside amounts for less. If one is in for the cause, skip the conversation and prepare an ambush and the judgement that follows. Otherwise your wasting time.

    • You may be right. But one thing to keep in mind is that the Civil War kicked off a year later. It was a sign of things to come. Abolitionist favor had just about built up a full head of steam, just as the partisanship over nanny-state vs free people both have been building up steam today. The next year or two are going to be very interesting.

      On a related note, one of my most interesting tidbits of history is that Robert E. Lee was in charge of the troops that stormed the armory and took it back from Brown and his men.

  10. No! We must be stupid like everyone else and flip out at the slightest provocation! No sensibility or reason allowed! 🙂

  11. This is a very slippery slope. I personally don’t have enough information on this to make a rational desision. Ya have to remember there are 3 sides (not 2) to EVERY story. Ours,Their’s and the cold hard truth. Very seldom do they EVER match up 100% Then add fakebook and the media and the whole thing goes out the window. I’m shocked that the “News” does not have a reporter “embedded” there.(they might, hell, I don’t know) All we’ll end up with is the story of a 28 inch bass caught with a honeysuckle vine by a cute 8 year old girl OR Unlicensed Minor destroys flora and fawna because she was left unsupervised by her 93 year old grandma. See how that works.

  12. Regardless of whether we like them or not, we are Nation of Laws. We voted for fellow citizens to represent us in our Republic and in doing so they created laws we may not like. Too bad, vote them out next time. But, instead many of us play the victim, just like countless other self interest groups we disparage. Use the process, all politics starts local. Vote people in who are going to reduce the size of government; don’t sit around bemoaning what the government is doing to our freedoms. Be part of the process. But most of us won’t, or will not, and we make excuses why it is too late.

    • “we are Nation of Laws”

      We are supposed to be a nation of laws, but this really isn’t true any more.

      Just look at the Hillary Clinton email situation.

      Just having that server in place is a breach of numerous federal laws related to secure document handling and this applies not just to Clinton herself but many others in her staff down to the IT people managing the server. And she is not currently in prison as she should be, indeed she continues to defy judicial orders as we speak. Oh, and for all we know will end up not in prison as she should be, but elected as president.

      You and I can be terminated from employment and in many cases prosecuted for something as simple as sharing account logins in our work systems; a pittance of a crime compared to what Clinton is getting away with.

      And that’s just Clinton. We all know the phrase, laws are for little people. And those in power in DC and all over this country live by it.

      We are not a nation of laws, that is long past. We should be, but it just isn’t so.

    • We’re a nation of laws, eh? How about immigration law? Hasn’t been properly enforced in decades. How about Obamacare? One law for us peons and another more beneficial law for the congress and president who pushed Obanacare on us. How about tax law? The wealthiest 1 % pay only 14 %, those who don’t work and illegals pay 0% income tax. How about the gun laws that police enforce, they themselves are exempt from?

      If you think we are a nation of laws I fear that you have been fooled so badly that you may never wake up.

      • We are, regardless of whether they are enforced or not is another issue. It’s up to We the People to ensure laws are administered. We are what we become. We are also what we want to become.

  13. After watching video of a news interview of Robert Lavoy Finicum, aka “tarp man”, I must say that it was hard to watch and realize that a 55 year old man could be so deluded and consumed with such gullible ignorance.

    Finicum obviously had a death wish which he very clearly articulated on camera by announcing he would resist arrest with deadly force using a firearm if an attempt was made by law enforcement to serve a warrant for his arrest.

    Yesterday the FBI and Oregon State Police granted the poor dumb b@$t@rd his wish. Thank God no one else died.

    Finicum’s death amounted to nothing more than an incredibly foolish long drawn out and complicated way to commit suicide by cop that was a selfishly cruel ordeal he chose to put his family through.

  14. So, let me get this straight. We got a hand full of citizens pissed because a couple of cowboys let the cows graze to far from home? These pilgrims are fleecing the sacred land of the taxpayers, and need to pay with their life? How bout we ask the natives if the the cattle can squat there… Doesn’t matter you see, there’s always gonna be someone who feels screwed. Not sure it’s worth dying for though.

  15. I think jlp needs to stay off of here, i am all for listening and reading arguments fron both sides of the table when they are educated, but to say we should follow Europe’s lead in socialistic activities, you sir or maam, are stupid. We are not a european nation, we kicked the british out for doing exactly what the goverment is attempting now, it will happen again. Hopefully not, but I’m not so optimistic. This illusion of life and death the liberal progressives have is incredibly skewed. Instead of jumping all over the “right wing” how about put on a uniform, I’ll give you one of mine, and defend this country or better yet just get a job and stop living off the hard working people of this country. If for some reason you do that and still don’t like how this country is run, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from moving to a country that has your style of goverment. So please before you respond take your own advice and instead of pulling an exerpt from a “history book” read the whole book and step it up one more level and cross reference with other books to fact check it. I hope that you, jlp, have a wonderful 2016 and that you find happiness in something instead of worrying about what i may or may not be doing.

  16. Let me cut through the bullsh*t and tell you what happened a bunch of idiots and wannabes decided to do something VERY stupid, tactically unsound, and they decided to invade another state without even consulting the locals. After the patriots that stood up for their family and stood ready to die in their defense took one look at this and BEGGED them to abandon this foolish venture and retreat, the Bundy Bros DECIDED TO STAY.

    Our movement had a clear cut propaganda victory in the Hammonds, we could have easily sent their story out on social media and earned them a place as political prisoners. Now instead of that, we have #Y’allQueda. Ammon, you haven’t just destroyed the Hammond’s case, you’ve tainted the victory obtained for your own family in Nevada.

    Finicum wanted to be a martyr? Well, congrads cowboy, when you have that wish don’t be surprised when the government agents grant it. As for the rest of the morons and valor thieves involved, best of luck.

    • Take a look at this if you think the U.S. is superior to Denmark LOL

      Here are 9 reasons Denmark’s socialist economy leaves the US in the dust.

      Of course you will not read it even though it is very short because you to terrified to read the truth as it just might make a dent in your overinflated blind patriotism. I know the truth is shocking and it hurts but it is still the truth and you cannot change this no matter how you try to put a Conservative twist to it as it will not work this time.


    • If true about corruption I will still take Denmark any day over the corrupt U.S. The U.S. rapes its people in a class that far surpasses Denmark if indeed Denmark is raping anyone in its country which I highly doubt after reading this.

      1. Denmark’s unemployed workers get 90 percent of their old salary for 2 years.

      2. Denmark spends far less on healthcare than the US.

      3. Denmark is the happiest country on Earth.

      4. Danes enjoy the world’s shortest workweek.

      5. Denmark pays students $900 a month to attend college.

      6. Denmark has one of the highest per-capita incomes in the developed world.

      7. Denmark has one of the world’s lowest poverty rates. The US has one of the highest.

      8. Denmark is ranked the #1 best country for business (The US is ranked #18).

      9. New parents in Denmark get 52 weeks of paid family leave. New American parents get nothing.

      So all this socialist nanny-state coddling must be making all the businesses flee Denmark as fast as they can, right? —————-Wrong.——————

      #5. Denmark pays students $900 a month to attend college.

    • If true about corruption I will still take Denmark any day over the corrupt U.S. The U.S. rapes its people in a class that far surpasses Denmark if indeed Denmark is raping anyone in its country which I highly doubt after reading this.

      1. Denmark’s unemployed workers get 90 percent of their old salary for 2 years.

      2. Denmark spends far less on healthcare than the US.

      3. Denmark is the happiest country on Earth.

      4. Danes enjoy the world’s shortest workweek.

      5. Denmark pays students $900 a month to attend college.

      6. Denmark has one of the highest per-capita incomes in the developed world.

      7. Denmark has one of the world’s lowest poverty rates. The US has one of the highest.

      8. Denmark is ranked the #1 best country for business (The US is ranked #18).

      9. New parents in Denmark get 52 weeks of paid family leave. New American parents get nothing.

      So all this socialist nanny-state coddling must be making all the businesses flee Denmark as fast as they can, right? —————-Wrong.——————

      • Jlp. You can sing the praises of being a happy slave in a cage all you want. But a slave in a cage is all you get.

        So go and be a happy slave. Me, I’ll live the life of a free citizen, with the knowing that I am the master of my own fate, with the victories, or defeats, on my own head, and no one elses.

        I will be fully alive. As for you? Go exist in the dull, grey and pointless place as the food source for your masters, that will feed on you until you are nothing but a hollow and lifeless husk.

        • Ah yes Tom Conservative freedom to be a cheap ass and save a penny today and then go bankrupt when your kids just want a decent higher education or when you need medication and have to sell your house to pay for cancer drugs. Come on man what kind of a cheap ass Moron are you. Do you really think you are immune from economic hardship or medical tragedy. Or is your goal to be buried poor, penniless and uneducated to achieve the Nirvana of Conservative ignorance while lining the pockets of your slave masters the Republicans. Wow what kind of twisted logic have you developed and continue to believe in. Believe me Tom Republicans often have told me “we cannot believe these people keep voting for us”.

          • Your not free of anything except to go bankrupt because you have no social benefits because you are too cheap to pay a few pennies for them. Totally illogical.

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