The New York Police Department, in its infinite wisdom, has issued the boys in blue GLOCK, SIG and other handguns with a 12-pound trigger pull for the last century or so. The “reasoning” for that making the trigger pull so heavy cuts down on negligent discharges.
Apparently adequately training the boys in blue never occurred to anyone at the NYPD.
The problem with a 12-pound trigger, of course, is it also makes shooting accurately much more difficult. That’s resulted in New York’s Finest spraying rounds around the town when they’ve had to use their guns against perps. In a densely populated urban environment, that means significantly higher chances of hitting something — or someone — by mistake.
As the Daily News reports . . .
Last year, officers shot 256 bullets in 26 incidents with suspects. But cops’ missed their target in half of those incidents, according to NYPD data. When cops don’t hit their target, they are likely to fire more shots, police said.
Who could have possibly foreseen that? Actually, that 50% hit rate, while nothing to brag about, is better than it’s been in the past. See here, here and especially here.
Those 12-pound triggers are why New York cops have a reputation for shooting about as well as imperial stormtroopers. At least the stormtroopers can blame those white helmets with the little eye slits.
But it seems the NYPD brass has had a sudden epiphany about their duty guns. They’ve been training cadets with lighter pull weight pistols and . . .
Now, after field tests at the NYPD firing range at Rodman’s Neck in the Bronx, police believe that officers fire more accurately with a 9mm handgun that has a trigger pull — meaning the pressure required to fire a bullet — of five pounds.
Really? Do tell.
The 457 recruits who were tested, most of whom never fired a weapon before, had an average score of 93.7 with the lesser pull and 88.7 with the 12-pound pull, police said.
Accuracy tests showed that 129 officers already working the streets also scored better with the lighter pull.
Will wonders never cease?
But don’t get too excited. While giving current cops guns with standard pull weight triggers would (naturally) improve their marksmanship, the wise men at the top of the NYPD are taking this transition slowly. They’ll only be issuing pistols with the good triggers to new recruits.
‘’We’re building (recruits) up from scratch, so to speak,” [Marlon] Larin said. “As we’re training them we’re assessing them and we can also follow them throughout their careers. We didn’t want to go so large. We know this is a very sensitive topic and we wanted to phase it in slowly.”
Naturally, the change in policy is not without its critics…primarily people who know virtually nothing about firearms or marksmanship.
Lawyer Randolph McLaughlin, who represented the family of Mohamed Bah, a mentally ill Harlem man shot dead in his apartment in 2012, said the NYPD is making a mistake.
“It’s making the weapon more deadly for more people. And I think at a time when we’re questioning the discharging of weapons by police, when we’re providing officers non-lethal force devices, such as Tasers, why would you want to make it easier for cops to shoot people?” he asked. “That just doesn’t make any sense — you’re putting more people at risk.”
Prediction: Some time in the not too distant future, when more graduating academy classes are out there walking the beat with the standard 5-pound triggers, a cop with an old 12-pounder is going to shoot at a suspect and kill a bystander.
The bystander’s family will then sue the hell out of the NYPD and point to the fact that they have objective data showing that their cops are more accurate — and therefore less prone to hitting innocent people — when carrying standard pull weight triggers. And yet they’ve refused to issue those (safer) guns to the entire force.
We’ll be watching.
NYPD got an accuracy problem? They spray bullets every where?
Give them revolvers with one bullet in their shirt pocket.
Thank You American Tax Payers,
The most dangerous knife in a kitchen isn’t the sharp one, it’s the dull one. Seems to me that a stiffer trigger makes the 12# pull more dangerous than the 7# pull.
Well now all they have to do is train these guys to shoot. My family is long-time NYPD (father, two uncles, brother-in-law) and all have complained over the years about the lousy gun handling of the average cop. Changing the triggers a great start but more time on the range would help. Rodman’s Neck is too crowded. At least each borough should have its own range and time should be compulsory. A decent score should be required and failure should put you on the “rubber gun squad” until scores improve.
Training and qualification cost money and is often one of the first things to get cut if there is a budget issue.
And social do-gooders will complain that making cops better with their guns means they are more likely to use them.
And 2min until NYPD cops pencil whip doing/passing qual. Perhaps put the FD in charge of running the ranges/qualification.
New York. It’s like Massachusetts. But dumber.
A 50% hit rate among the NYPD? That’s a whole lot better than our own LAPD here. Remember Michael Dorner, and how our fearless LAPD was so adrenaline-rushed to get him that they fired upon a truck that was a different color, different make/model than the one in the BOLO, and was even occupied by two short Latina women as they were delivering morning newspapers to customers. And of course, it was being driven away from the officers. Yet they still fired over 100 rounds, with only a portion even striking the vehicle and only two hitting the driver, who was their target. Only two found their intended target (thank God that was all), which was a 98% miss rate.
I never did read any follow up on the reports which might have given info on where all those other rounds ended up. You know…the ones that missed the truck entirely and simply kept traveling down that residential street, ending up only-God-knows-where.
Once the bullets leave the firearm they all go to the same place… They go to COURT!
They peppered the truck, they peppered numerous cars parked in the cul-de-sac, and they peppered numerous houses in that cul-de-sac.With some bullets hitting gutters, it is surprising that they didn’t pepper the houses behind the houses in the cul-de-sac.
They were laying down suppressive fire while calling in an air strike.
“It’s making the weapon more deadly for more people…why would you want to make it easier for cops to shoot people?” The data supports increased accuracy with the 5# trigger versus the 12# trigger…meh, just another ambulance-chasing cranio-rectal inverted lawyer talking crap. You’d almost think he was selfishly trying to protect his source of income.
Shakespeare was right!
“primarily people who know virtually nothing about firearms or marksmanship.”
“It’s making the WEAPON more deadly for more people. And I think at a time when we’re questioning the discharging of WEAPONS”
So they know nothing about firearms, yet they call it a WEAPON?
As did the Daily News, “The 457 recruits who were tested, most of whom never fired a WEAPON before”
That is why gun owners should stop using that term. It is inaccurate, and has a negative connotation associated with it.
It is gun control language.
Massad Ayoob a well know police trainer stated that the Police accidental shootings went down dramatically both in shooting innocent people as well as even “accidentally shooting themselves and their fellow officers sometimes killing them”.
We all ready have a Cop problem of untrained cops shooting people intentionally when they should not but giving them guns with lighter trigger pulls has already proved in the past to be a complete disaster. Remember the average cop has insufficient training and to make matters even worse most cops are not “gun guys” and many only shoot their guns once a year in qualification (when they are not murdering law abiding citizens)
When you compare professional trained police forces as in Germany that get 3 years of intensive training in knowing the laws, giving first aid, de-escalation of a confrontation and of course safe gun handling and very high marksmanship qualifications as compared to the average U.S.Hill Billy un-vetted sadistic cop that in some places only gets 4 weeks training and then is allowed to spray down the streets with high volumes of fire against people who had a burned out license plate bulb these morons are the last people on earth you want to have with weapons with lighter trigger pulls. In most cases the more people they miss the better as most people should not have been shot in the first place.
I have read of a cop that got out of his cruiser and approached a stopped vehicle and accidentally tripped and then set off his pistol and shot a passenger sitting in the car which by the way was a passenger who could not believe why he was even shot. The story was given several years ago in one of the gun magazines. I get most of them..
Most largely untrained U.S. cops (who average killing more people in hostage situations) than any of the professional French and German police do again are the last morons who should be given guns with lighter trigger pulls.
nazi boi has an opinion.
On every fucking thing.
Maybe so however in this incidence I tend to agree with Dacian.
Excuse me now while I smash my nutz with a brick.
You’ve made all the babies you want to?
Have at it with the brick then.
Simply Amazing… In America a possum has more self-awareness than your minor49er.
Save the brick and go get a Not a Real Vax injection. May not prevent pregnancy but the baby will be dead.
jwm….I guess it’s a slow day for ANTIFA commies today. dacian has nothing else to do.
He really puts the “i” in AiN’T I FAscist…
Jethro W M, you present opinions, I present facts.
In your dreams, liar boi.
Pretty much a “gibberish” statement. You cannot write complete sentences or quote sources, while the NYPD are at least TRYING to improve their performance. Maybe try and follow their example.
dacian, Do you know Mass? I have made his aquantantice. We shot together twice at the N FL Institute for Public Safety. Maybe three times. Shared a steak dinner on at least one occasion. He admits that a good trigger usually means better accuracy. However, he said most P.D.s don’t do enough training. As a 25 year veteran firearms law enforcement instructor, I agree. Poor triggers do not help poor shooters. As an aside, I’ve been through Glock’s LEO armorer class at least four times. I have made the same point with them. One Glock guy said, “I understand what you’re saying. We just build what they ask for. Even it’s stupid.” dacian, you know very little about firearms. My best advice to you is to be quite on the subject .
He knows it all from Call Of Duty and Phantom Forces.
Firing a real gun would result in PTSD for the rest of their life.
Pretty much they would have to put him on ANOTHER psych med if he actually had to handle a real gun. I’m pretty sure he’s prohibited now so how would he explain that? Another 72 hours or more tied to the bed for him.
Jerry we know you like to be called Dacian but you have to take this pill with the 5 others that you take. Are you ever going to touch a gun again? You know that you are supposed to run and report it to a responsible adult. What’s it going to be Jerry? Should we undo the straps or keep you for another couple of days? I know the pills taste nasty but you need them.
Please take the new pill Jerry. OK, I’ll come back in 8 hours and see if you want to take it then. We will also change your diaper and wipe you.
To the Flag Waver.
Flag waver I was shooting, competing, accurizing, repairing and teaching gun safety when you were still shitting in your diapers. I shot High Master in NRA across the course high power rifle shooting decades and decades ago.
The difference between us is that I have a combination of experience, common sense and advanced education that you have yet to acquire that is more than obvious by your ranting nonsensical posts. It is you who should keep your mouth shut when it comes to guns. And by the way Genius your bragging about knowing Massad is false as he did indeed site studies showing that heavy trigger pulls did indeed cut down drastically with the Cops shooting themselves and other officers as well as civilians. I suggest you read some of his books assuming you do not have the usual right wing attention deficit disorder.
You’re a liar, jerry p. I’ve been to your facebook. You’re not that old and you obviously know little about firearms beyond cut and paste.
Grow the fuck up.
Gee whizz, Dacian.
Gadsden Flag ask a question. Do you know Massad Ayoob? Then said he’s shot with him.
Then you immediately went on the attack regardless of what the content of Gadsden Flags comment was
You remind me of a coyote backed into a corner, wildly snapping at anything.
Itd be my advice to take a break from fighting everybody. It’s hard on the heart and not good for the mind in my experience.
dacian, I don’t believe a word you say. Mass has a facility in N FL a short distance away from me. One of my best friends, a retired FDLE agent, ran firearms at the N FL Institute for Public Safety. Had lunch with him yesterday. Took delivery of a bandoler of 8mm Mauser for my son’s mint K98k. I can arrange a day for you to tour the academy, lunch and range time. Call me, 850-694-9405. Possum can confirm the PX. Now put up or shut the fuck up.
Possum, don’t worry about dacian. We all know he’s nothing but a troll. He should just go live under his bridge until he can’t answer his own question about birds. Second time I’ve offered my PX #, yet the crickets chirp. His mother probably neutered him at birth. He obviously has no balls. 😆
To Flag Waver.
If you new anything at all about Ayoob you would not be denying that he did indeed make that statement about heavy trigger pulls reducing accidents with cops. Again read his books and quite making a fool of yourself. That is why I do not believe a word you ever say.
Lets start with the obvious, your knowledge is from one article and that article is cited on Wikipedia. You no nothing of how actual policing works in Europe beyond what you read. I doubt you have ever left your state let alone the country. Please tell us all about the Italian PDs next.
In your citation:
What is the gun that Klaudia is shooting and whats the trigger pull with the hammer forward?
As a POTG this should be easy peasy for you.
As for you being a “High Master” you just plain full of it. I attained Sharpshooter and was about a month from “Expert”. I guarantee that I would shoot you in the eye at 100 yards with iron sights while you were trying to figure out how to load your rifle if you weren’t running away.
Most likely the next lie you are going to tell is that you graduated from MAG40, which is something that can be proven.
I’ll give you this, reading your bullshit made me spit out some water I was drinking and I think I might have pissed myself a little. You defiantly gave me the laugh of the month.
Dacian don’t play with guns: “You’ll shoot your eye out, kid!”
Yes Flag Waver a true Right Wing Fanatic. Anyone with an opposing view is a troll. Grow up, this forum is for Adults who believe in the 1st Amendment. This is not your favorite past country Nazi Germany.
dacian, I have government documentation (you remember the government don’t you? It’s your God) of everything I’ve said. Again call me. 850-694- 9405. Again, you should change your alias. It’s very hard to take a comic book character seriously.
dacian, I’ve had better worms than you try to bait me. I’ve read Mass for decades. And yes I have really have met him and shot with him. I remember the first time. Mark was hosting a WWII shoot. (That was when we enjoyed grilled dead cows at the academy.) We shot a lot of WWII that afternoon. I supplied an M-1 and an 03. There were 1911A1s in abundance, Noel brought a M1A1 Thompson. On the other side of the line was an MG42, a K98k, an MP-40, a Luger, several P-38s, etc. I didn’t see you there. If we had you would have felt a good swift kick in the ass as you were thrown out the gate.
As for as WWII; my Uncle Leland was at Pearl Harbor on December 7. Uncle Jeff was deafened in one ear when a German U-boat’s deck gun shell exploded next to him on his convoy escort ship in the N Atlantic. (They sunk the U-boat.) My Uncle Willie followed Patton across N Africa and Europe. Uncle Johnny wasn’t in the war. He was working at Oak Ridge, TN on a little thing called the Manhattan Project. My dad, the youngest of the brothers, didn’t go to the war. He was crippled by polio when he was 8 y.o.a. And you call me a Nazi? Fuck you! My family settled here before our fight for freedom. North Carolina. Read Cold Mountain. It’s based on a true story. When they reference Black’s Cove. My family. You answer my call to contact me we’ll meet. If you get away with a butt stroke from an wood and iron rifle with nothing more than a broken jaw you’ll be lucky. Besides 25 years pushing a patrol car down the road I spent four years jumping out of airplanes for the Army. I spent my entire adult life in the service of our nation. Where were you?
Oh, If I “new” anything I’d “quite” making… How much dope you smoked tonight anyway. Put away the bong before you begin typing son. It just emphasises your ignorance.
To Flag Waver
Flag Waver you fool no one but yourself.
You took a job as a cop because you enjoyed bullying and terrorizing people and were too lazy and shiftless to get a job where you had to sweat and really do an honest days work, and now you make physical threats because you are showing exactly why you took a job as a cop. You get your sexual excitement brutalizing people, probably because you have an undersize penis which you could never get up.
War is the rich becoming more wealthy and the working man sending his sons to have their brains blown out. War is always started over power and money and its easy to prey on the xenophobia of people to get them to do your bidding. WWII with Japan happened because of a trade war between the U.S. and Japan. At least we won that war. America’s wars since that time were failures at Imperialism and Colonialism, none of which were either necessary or desirable or justified in any way.
You ask where was I? People who had even a minimum of grey matter between their ears during the Vietnam War were protesting against it because they were aware that it was an obscene , immoral and unjust war of American Imperialism and Colonialism of which we failed to achieve and at yet we denigrated the French that were very successful at it. Falsely insinuating that you were proud to be in any of America’s Imperialistic wars SINCE the Vietnam War after all that went on there really shows you learned nothing from it. And you were not in any of them at all. DW TV out of Berlin did a special on Vets that went to Nam several years ago during their celebrations over the end of the war and their victory over the American Imperialists. The Vets went to apologize for their country’s invasion of it and the horrific atrocities committed there that were the equal of anything the German Nazi’s did during WWII.
As far as WWII plenty of my relatives served in WWII including my old man who fought with Patton, but unlike you they viewed the Vietnam War as a travesty and were not afraid to make their views known to the younger generation to save them the horrors of war. This also included my High School Teachers who also were WWII Vets. So blow all your posturing and huffing and puffing about being a super patriot out your rectum because real patriots are able to use critical thinking and do not sanctify every conflict they can get into, only sadists’, racist’s and xenophobic people who blindly follow authority and never were taught critical thinking do that sort of thing.
And by the way Fag Waver you do not get to cover yourself with glory for jumping out of a few planes at an air force base when the bulk of your time was cleaning out the latrines and saluting officers. That is for real combat veterans not wannabe Sergeant York’s. York knew which end of a 1911 the bullets came out of. The sum of your knowledge of combat is watching old Gary Cooper movies. It does not impress us. LMAO
In other words, dacian/jerry p. Gadsden called you on your obvious lies(you have nothing else) so you resort to insults to try to cover your embarrassment and anger at being caught. 2 year old behavior at best.
As for being a bully. You’ve claimed to be a part of the antif/SS crowd. How many minority owned businesses did you and your fascist bully bois loot and burn?
According to Scientific American: In the United States, police officers fatally shoot about three people per day on average, a number that’s close to the yearly totals for other wealthy nations.
Is that a problem? Are they shooting people at that rate who don’t deserve to be shot? If that is the case, there is cause for concern. If it is not, then the number is far too low. Should they be trying harder?
In 2012 U.S. Cops killed 1,300 people compared to Germany that killed just 12 and China killed just 4 and they have 4 1/2 times the population of the U.S. U.S. Cops kill on average 1,000 people a year, other industrialized nations come nowhere even close to that figure.
Good going, you really rattled our troll. He’s up at 4:40AM because you handed him his ars. He went to name calling, insults and then complete strawman.
Nazi Germany, Japan, American Imperialism and Colonialism, Vietnam War, Berlin, the French, WWII Vets, Germany, China, U.S. Cops.
You really rattled him and he stayed up but went back to his same old strawman BS because he couldn’t counter your posts GF.
Bravo to you sir, I have never seen our troll so rattled so he went back to his strawman defense but it was an utter failure. I could counter his strawman nonsense but no need, dacian what a shameful showing of trolling, you got in over your head this time.
“I shot High Master in NRA across the course high power rifle shooting decades and decades ago.”
You shot 97% at 600 yards? Too funny, keep reading your magazines or else “You’ll shoot your eye out, kid!”
So, which left wing rag did you copy/paste that nonsense from? Obviously, neither you nor the author has ever fired a pistol with a 12 pound pull, then a 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 pound pull. Neither of you has probably ever fired anything with more bang than the Atari duck gun, or the water blaster you soaked girls in T-shirts with.
The NYPD pistols are 12 lbs first time, every time. They are not DA/SA.
Well I must admit, shooting girls with a water blaster while their wearing t shirts does sound like fun.
I bet Dacian would want me thrown out tho, just because I used ice water.
Love the mental image…
Thank you for the chuckle.
I’ve replaced a number of the “NY” triggers in friend’s Glocks, I’d hate to have to defend myself with that POS in my weapon! Wonder how many cops have been hurt or killed because of it!?
Didn’t the NYPD call it turning perps into “Glockamolie” when they transitioned from revolvers?
, SC you’ve been on a role hear lately.
It’s boring waiting for PCs to image and applications to deploy. So I browse TTAG while waiting for progress bars to finish.
At least I’m working and getting paid.
Well their goes an excuse.
I guess when your not liable for shooting innocent bystanders where your bullets are flying really doesn’t matter.
They’re probably doing this to follow the Big Guy’s advice to shoot them in the leg. The veterans have to be retrained to do that before they get a normal trigger.
I have a small problem with the article and Dan’s interpretation.
As the Daily News reports . . .
Last year, officers shot 256 bullets in 26 incidents with suspects. But cops’ missed their target in half of those incidents, according to NYPD data. When cops don’t hit their target, they are likely to fire more shots, police said.
Who could have possibly foreseen that? Actually, that 50% hit rate, while nothing to brag about, is better than it’s been in the past.
What they said was, in 13 out of the 26 shooting incidents the target was never hit. They did not say that half of the bullets fired found their target. Now maybe that’s not what they meant, but it is what they said.
If the article is correct, then the hit rate is much worse than 50%. Though it hard to tell how much worse. Some shooting incidents probably have 2 or 4 shots fired, and some have 30 shots fired.
That’s correct. That’s not a hit rate. NYPD stopped reporting that many years ago. What’s being quoted here is what they call their “Objective Completion Rate”, meaning at least one officer hit at least one subject with at least one round during the incident. It’s the rate of incidents with an actual hit percentage above zero.
Now, a more cynical man might wonder why they would use such a measure, if not to intentionally confuse people who think it’s a hit rate.
The stats in the article are misleading. So did they only hit 13 subjects? or did they hit all 26 subjects with an average of 4.9 rounds per subject?
Not exactly. There were 26 police shooting incidents. In half of those, the police’s gunfire hit one or more supposed perpetrators. At least, that’s what the language says. Another way to say it is that in half of these incidents the police opened fire and no supposed perpetrators were hit.
One could suggest that the NYPD is saying they “trust” new recruits more than current/veteran officers…
The other part that amazes me is how these police recruits have never fired a gun before they went into police school. I knew kids my age who grew up to become cops and just like me they learned shooting before they finished elementary school. That includes shooting .22 revolvers at those sneaky old soda-pop and soup cans. Or, later cottontails, the odd rattlesnake, etc.
That anyone who isn’t a gun person, even if just in passing, not big-time serious, doesn’t know diddly about guns and enters cop school is kind of scary.
That’s what I was thinking, too! Did they purposely not hire anyone that had experience with firearms?
Consider their hiring pool.
NYPD, along with most big Liberal cities, is drawing from a pool of people who also live in big Liberal cities were there is no relevant gun culture. Recruits may have never even handled a firearm, let alone a handgun; They may have had no military service, as big-city departments are looking for social workers, not ‘cops;’ The LAST person that they want to hire is someone with a military, no-nonsense background. They are also seeking ‘diversity,’ which entails recruiting MinorityFemaleDisenfranchisedOtherAbledLiberalLGBTQSingleChildBearingPersonsOfColor over people who are physically and mentally fit to perform the tasks required, and such folk are not known for their martial and firearms backgrounds, as a rule.
So, yeah, they pretty much purposely don’t hire experienced and qualified people.
I’m going to be the dissenter on this. Before the semi auto was popular most LEOS carried revolvers that had 12lb triggers. Most of the time there was no cocking of the hammer so it was a 12lb. pull with usually a .357 magnum every time.
The cops who trained were pretty much crack shots. They weren’t bullseye shooters but if they were shooting for the chest, perps were usually shot in the chest. This was the norm, revolvers had heavy triggers. A few carried 1911s with lighter triggers but to be bluntly honest, practice is everything.
I used to regularly out shoot my buddy who had a Glock 17 with a Sigma that had a trigger pull that was upwards of 10 lbs. His Glock trigger was considerably lighter but a S&W warranty station had taken all the grit out of my trigger so it was smooth from take up to the wall and then the heavy pull.
I have a SD that is my EDC rotation. The trigger on that is slightly less then 7lbs but I polished everything that I could and the trigger is smooth. For SD purposes I like it and will alternate between that and a M&P.
Right now it’s 90 out with high humidity and I’ll carry a TCP in a pocket holster. That trigger is a smidge over 4 lbs.
The moral of all of this is practice and then practice some more. To me a trigger that sucks is one that has an uneven gritty pull. The heaviness of the trigger is really not that much of a concern, I’m not bullseye shooting at 75 feet. If I can put 2 or 3 GD center mass quickly does it matter that the trigger pull was 7 lbs?
It might to a SA but that trigger is stock and the local PD uses GDs.
The moral of all of this is if you a poor shot with a heavy trigger, a lighter trigger isn’t going to make you a crack shot. Training is key and the more you shoot and especially if you are doing something wrong, when you you perfect your technique, you will be a better shooter. The practice part is 100% the technique part is subjective.
A lot of people were taught many years ago “thumbs locked down”. My father taught me this in the ’70s and is what I pretty much still use as opposed to thumbs forward. I was also taught Isosceles stance but occasionally will practice the Weaver Stance. The latest is the Fighting Stance. Whatever technique is the best for you practice it and keep practicing it.
The ammo shortage makes this impossible but I find that a tight grip of either type and a Isosceles stance is great for me except if I’m shooting one handed, weak arm and then the Weaver Stance is better. You are shooting a handgun for SD and not Bullseyes shooting at distance. If you put bullets into someone center mass at 30 feet you should be fine. Trigger weight is a small part of this, practice and practice more until you are proficient.
Maybe so, I won a pistol shooting match using a 1911 against a lot of polymer frame pistols. One guy quit using striker fired because of that.
Pistol match consisted of both hands above head, at the beep draw and fire at a 3 clay pigeons 7 yards away. First to shatter all three won the match, winner stays online, enter more challengers until all contestants have competed.
I’m not that good, but a single action trigger is.
I forgot to mention five were on the line at a time. It was quite exciting .
I have a couple of 1911s where it would be boom, boom, boom at 21 feet, say 3 seconds tops. Were these standard clay pigeons?
How many contestants were there?
Big difference between a decent 1911 and any polymer gun.
Polymer guns give you capacity and I would never use an extended mag in a 1911. It sounds like fun but at 21 feet I have a few poly guns that would be just as effective. I never understood tricking out a Glock and making it a $2000 dollar gun. You will never have the lockup that a 1911 has if the barrel is fitted correctly.
OTOH if I were a big city LEO I want want more than 8+1 before I have to reload. The same with just 6. That’s why we have polymer guns, capacity but there are metal guns that do the trick.
The 5906 S&W has a DA pull of 14lbs and then 5.5 SA.
In a 15+1 gun there was an incident where a CPD LEO put all 16 into someone. 100% hit rate in 13 seconds. He’s in prison right now.
Sometimes evidently you can be too accurate even if the perp is a knife wielding, hopped up on PCP in his underwear maniac.
There are a few Sheriffs by me that still carry the 5906.
whoa whoa whoa!!!
a 12lb trigger makes a gun inaccurate? So my double action is inaccurate? Then How come I can shoot golf balls at 15 yards with it?
Me thinks, the NYPD needs to spend a little more time on the range doing a little practicing. Nothing inaccurate with a 12 lbs trigger, just inaccurate shooters.
“a 12lb trigger makes a gun inaccurate? So my double action is inaccurate? Then How come I can shoot golf balls at 15 yards with it?”
Because your not moving while shooting, the golf ball isn’t moving and shooting back at you or attacking you with a knife, it isn’t dark out and there aren’t bystanders and obstructions in your way. You haven’t just sprinted a quarter mile wearing 40 pounds of gear etc, etc, etc,… Under dynamic leathal force conditions you will want a 5 pound trigger over a 12 pound trigger. Plenty of force on force training institutions private and public having been proving that for over 20 years now. It really isn’t open for debate anymore.
The weight of the trigger is a very small part of accuracy inside of say 30-50 feet. It’s the pussifacation of society that’s the problem. I’ll take an old cop who is shooting a revolver over a new cop who is shooting something that is a Gen 5 9mm assuming both triggers are smooth.
Take notice of how the article makes a direct comparison of qualification scores but
“Accuracy tests showed that 129 officers already working the streets also scored better with the lighter pull.” I would like to know how much? Is it 1 point? Basically is any significant amount?
That transition to semi autos was less gun weight, more bullets. It had nothing to do with trigger weight. While most of the cops of the ’80s carried .357s by me, there were a few that carried 45 Long Colts. They hit what the were shooting at. If you took a 45 Long Colt to the chest even with old bullet technology you were off to meet your maker.
It really isn’t open for debate, there is no difference in accuracy. This is a Zimmerman opinion piece. NYPDs problem with lack of accuracy has to do with lack of training or don’t you remember the the “bulletproof” Carhartt? They could of had 2lb. triggers and they still would have missed. Tell Jerry Miculek how DA 12lb. triggers are completely inaccurate, he will get a kick out of it.
Force on force training institutions is just that training, which I highly recommend. The truth of the matter is nothing makes up for real time on the street. You go to unholster your Glock but are shot in the head with a .357 S&W. Your are over. The only real force on force is when you are in an actual firefight, the rest helps but in the back of your mind you know you aren’t going to get seriously hurt. In a real firefight you can die, different mindset.
“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” – Mike Tyson
BTW: There is a great discussion of this on another forum and the fact is that a bunch of departments use a heavy trigger in their Glocks. The one comment that rang true was: “If they don’t address the problem of poor trigger discipline nothing will improve.”
You can Google it.
Funny, seems like its being debated right here, right now.
On the other forum they have been going at it for 3 days since the NY story broke.
There is no debate here, just opinions.
Your opinion is you cannot shoot a heavy trigger.
My opinion is that it isn’t the weight of the trigger but the consistency.
5.5 lbs is OK for a carry gun but if you go lower then 5 then you might have some issues.
The cops that that carried revolvers or say the people that shot a M9 DA 1st shot have no issues with accuracy. On top of that I have comments that are awaiting moderation.
This not a forum for debate when that happens, it takes the right here, right now out.
Anyway smooth trigger, good technique and an accurate gun.
After that it’s all opinions. I used to out shoot people with their own revolvers who always cocked them to SA so a much lighter trigger. Here let me show you how to shoot a revolver DA.
That was beer money after the range session and I never had to pay.
If all things are equal then a heavier or lighter trigger isn’t going to make you a better shot.
If you go to the Olympics or an IPSC or IDPA match and compete with a 12 pound trigger you are going to come in last place, assuming you are an average shooter compared to the competition present. If you are the best shooter present you are going to come in middle of the pack at best. This has been done, it’s pretty simple physics. If you shoot great at the range you’re going to shoot about half as well as your best day during the adrenaline dump of a close range Lethal force encounter. We have pretty good data on this now. It’s not the 70’s or even the 90’s anymore, this type of thing isn’t a matter of conjecture anymore. 30-50 feet would be an extreme outlier for a civilian shooting and even most Law Enforcement shootings. At 50 feet with a pistol statistically almost no one will hit anyone (that they intended too anyway) period no matter the trigger pull weight, but a lighter pull would certainly be preferred. What you can do on a recreational outing with your buddies has zero bearing on what the average cop can or should attempt to do in an actual street shooting. Sorry it just doesn’t. It’s the same principle behind why a rifle is more accurate. Yes more points of contact, but also lower trigger break to weapon weight ratio.
I’m glad that you may have taken some classes. I’m glad that you might compete.
Get back to me when you have been in actual firefight and been shot and shot others.
Statistics are meaningless, I have seen people take multiple shots and not even flinch and I have seen people go down after taking a single shot from a Beretta Tomcat.
“Pretty good data” is just that data, it isn’t real world SD street shootings.
If I were worried about PF then that’s not a real world “event”.
Talk to me when you run a cash business in the second nastiest neighborhood in Chicago. Talk to me when you carried when it was illegal to even have a handgun in Chicago. Talk to me when you shoot a 870 in someones general direction.
What you have is data points and statistics. I have what seemed to be the entire CPD show up including the CTA cops after a shooting. I have paid people to clean up baked on blood in front of my business. Why didn’t I clean it up before it baked on? Because the crime scene had to be processed. This isn’t “recreational outing with your buddies” type stuff. It more force on force then you will hopefully see in a lifetime.
The person getting shot does not care if your trigger is 4 lbs. or 14 lbs. All they know is they have been shot. How they react is what varies. I have never shot anyone I didn’t intend to shoot and the detectives on my detail have told me about how cops and perps were 10 feet apart, both emptied full magazines, nobody got hit and 34 or so rounds went flying down a block.
Everybody enjoys a championship right? Every business that was in what you would call a ghetto learned that championships are a nightmare. There are very smart criminals out there. You have organized groups of people running around with oxyacetylene cutting torches backed up by sledge hammers. There is no lock that I know of that will put up with being cut with a oxyacetylene torch followed by a whack from a sledgehammer.
I used to hate championships, you learn quickly after you get cleared out the first time to hire off duty cops and have your “buddies” in the store armed to the hilt. Let them blow the locks off and surprise! The first time that you get cleared out is surprising and yet somehow they get a safe out that was $6K and weighed two tons. Never underestimate a determined bunch of burglars. Other stores just had holes knocked through the brick walls.
To sum this up, I have been shooting for 40 years. I shot competitively when I was younger. When you get older your priorities change. I can still bullseye shoot but don’t really care to, I’m in my rifle phase right now but it’s really just been too hot and humid out. I dissolved the business I had and no longer have a store in Garfield Park. Right now I have other things that I have to deal with and shooting is low on my list of priorities. I enjoy reading TTAG and commenting. I am getting kind of sick of the trolls.
By that I mean dacian and miner, you and I are having a civilized discussion so don’t think for a second I’m calling you a troll, you’re not.
Anyway you stay safe and have fun shooting. Arguing over trigger weights is stupid, yes I’m a much better shooter with one of my 1911s then some 12lb. striker fired pistol. I will tell you this though, I have seen old timers who were unreal with their revolvers in DA, they would shoot you in the face first shot. The Beretta’s and 5906 S&Ws became very popular during the transition from revolvers. Then came the Glock. The first shot from the semis (not the Glock) mimicked the revolvers they were used to. The SA followup shots were better with a lighter trigger.
I kind of get why NYC and other agencies went with a 12lb. trigger but that should have been phased out years ago along with magazine safeties. That’s a discussion for another day but they should transition all of their LEOs to a 5.5 lb trigger.
Just for fun read this: https://www.defensivecarry.com/threads/12-lb-trigger-common-in-law-enforcement.147704/
Read comments #9 and #14 and no that isn’t me even though I really do enjoy my M&P40s. Those guns are uncannily accurate for what they are, I have two of them.
(One is a 2.0)
I have things to do and then crash.
It’s been a long day and tomorrow looks the same.
Seems like you’ve lived an interesting life, glad you survived to tell the tales. Also seems that we are at least partially in agreement. I’ll simply add these last two points: as a Firearms Instructor / RSO for a very large agency for seven years; I watched thousands of LEO’s transition from a DAO Beretta 9mm with a smooth and consistent but still 12 pound trigger pull for every shoot to a gen 4 Glock 9mm with standard 5.5 pound trigger and I’d say 95% percent of them improved their qualification score dramatically. The psychological difference and confidence it built in officers was worth the transition alone. Secondly, in the Army shooting M9’s almost everyone threw the first double action shot extremely low and left (most being right handed) than was able to place every single action shoot roughly center mass. Could this be corrected with training? Of course. But realistically, organizations don’t train enough, never have, never will. Hardware can in fact compensate for human deficiency to at least some slight degree. It’s easier and cheaper to issue everyone a level three retention holster than it is to make them all weapon retention / martial arts experts. Enjoy your weekend sir.
You can’t win in any scenario.
The only way to win is not to play the game – which many NYPD officers are happy to do; resulting in wildly increased crime in NYC these days.
The “logic” used to justify the 12# rule, has never been logical.
The logic was to transition from DA revolver to a semi auto.
By having the 12# trigger they just had more capacity.
Was it stupid after the “old” cops transitioned? Yes.
The thing is the NYC isn’t the only PD to do this.
There are PDs that still have 12# Glocks.
Offhand I cannot name the departments right now, I have to run.
Chicago sets the limit to 5lbs, nothing under 5 lbs is allowed.
“A Department member authorized to use a striker-fired pistol will not alter the trigger pull from the standard factory trigger. Triggers of less than five pounds are prohibited.”
The one thing I found that I think is interesting is this:
Final Note: ” High Trigger Weight Does Not Replace Safety, Low Does Not Make You Accurate.”
Guess they would pass out over my 4.5 lb Glock trigger.
Was there any concern for ongoing training, recertification, and scenario based training?
I agree with shifting to a better weapon. However, an agency as large as NYPD can easily make budget space for improved firing ranges and training facilities. Just in my private capacity, I go to the range every two weeks and fire 21 rounds in a shooting drill. Based on coverage and media reporting, I am probably well ahead of most police officers.
OTOH, with the heavy triggers their unintentional discharge rate is about 15% depending on the year. That will probably go up with the lighter triggers. The DOJ uses Glocks with the lighter triggers and in one five year period their unintentional discharge rate was about 30% of all shooting incidents. Twice as bad as NYPD with the heavier trigger.