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Oh deer! (courtesy

Press release from the National Shooting Sports Foundation:

Bill to Ban Hunting in California Advances in Senate

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The Senate Appropriations Committee moved to pass Assembly Bill 711 (Rendon) which will effectively ban hunting in California by banning traditional lead ammunition; the first statewide ban of its kind in the nation.  The bill now moves to the California State Senate Floor and is opposed by a large coalition including every major hunting and sporting organization in California, as well as a coalition of Labor leaders and organizations concerned about the impact to their members . . .

Proponents of the bill have argued that hunters could simply switch to non-lead ammunition, but alternative metals are classified as “armor piercing” by the federal government and require a special permission to make, sell or possess. Thus far, the federal government has refused to grant permission.  Alternative ammunition would be exceedingly expensive and supplies would not meet the demands of hunters.  By eliminating hunting in California, the state would lose millions in conservation funding that depends upon ammunition and license fees paid by hunters.

Despite the unavailability of alternative ammunitions, the committee passed the bill, although it was amended to delay implementation of the lead ban until 2019.

“Not only does passage of this bill needlessly jeopardize millions of dollars of federal conservation funding California receives annually as articulated by the Department of Finance analysis of the bill, but these new amendments shine a light on supporters’ true intentions,” noted National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) Senior Vice President and General Counsel Lawrence Keane. “Their goal is to end hunting and sports shooting, beginning with California.

“Both the Department of Fish and Wildlife and bill proponents led by the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) have largely ignored concerns of ammunition manufacturers and the hunting community.  While proponents talk publicly about an immediate concern for the health of wildlife ingesting traditional lead ammunition, delaying this bill makes that urgency argument moot.  Instead, this legislation seems aimed at crippling California’s hunting community and industry and mission driven by organizations that want hunting banned.” There is no sound science that California’s hunters use of traditional ammunition is adversely impacting wildlife populations. Supporters of the bill also knowingly falsely claim that using traditional ammunition poses a human health risk to hunters.


About NSSF®
The National Shooting Sports Foundation® is the trade association for the firearms industry. Its mission is to promote, protect and preserve hunting and the shooting sports. Formed in 1961, NSSF has a membership of more than 8,000 manufacturers, distributors, firearms retailers, shooting ranges, sportsmen’s organizations and publishers. For more information, visit

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  1. Maybe this will wake up the FUDDs? They’re after EVERY gun and EVERY possible usage of a gun, not just the scary black ones and the tacticool sport shooting people do with them.

    • It’s pretty obvious that CA wants to ban absolutely everything firearms – related. The gun control machine is picking up speed and has precious little resistance.

      • Don’t forget the animal rights crazies. In your fair state, I believe pet stores are not allowed to sell feeder mice, for reptiles–they must be pre-killed vermin. Animal rights people and gun controllers are fellow travelers.

  2. So California continues to pursue its Utopian dreams even if it means putting more people out of work and reducing its revenue base. Hopefully the big one will hit dumping the lunatics on the coast into the sea.

    • I agree and disagree. The politics and asinine laws in that state are delusional at best, evil and deplorable at worst. It is however a stunningly beautiful state, with many good people, some of whom post on here. I don’t think we should forsake an entire state based on the mentality of those in the Bay Area, LA and Sacramento. Since I live in a state that many have also forsaken as a land of idiots, I sympathize with the marginalized, rational and normal people in Cali whose voices are largely ignored.

      I know you’re a solid dude from your other posts on here, so I hope that didn’t come off as being patronizing.

      • Hey! There are plenty of mentally functioning, rational folks in Sacramento. Just because the politicians work here doesn’t mean the rest of us are loonies.

      • I think what he is saying is that due to where the fault line is, it would break off the parts with all the loonies in them and free the rest of the state. Unfortunately even a massive earthquake wouldn’t be able to do that.

    • With the limited supply of copper in the system, expect an increase in house stripping for wiring and pipes and a sudden lack of condenser coils.

    • Copper is still poisonous, likely much more so than the metallic lead usually used in bullets. If lead ammo was poisonous, all the Civil War battlegrounds would be toxic wastelands, but they aren’t. Metallic lead is not readily absorbed by living things.

      • I believe you’re exactly on the money. Copper, if adopted as the “solution” to a non-existent problem, will prove far more dangerous to the environment that lead ever could.

        The reason lead-based paints were banned is not because it’s dangerous per se to be around lead, but because paint chips become aerosolized as dust and inhaled. It was removed from gasoline as a “no-knock” agent (not the dog-killin’ kind) for much the same reason.

        • I thought lead was removed because it clogged catalytic converters? Or damaged them in some way, basically rendering them useless. Not saying that it wasn’t an issue but not the primary reason.

        • Its great for killing trees. root poisons for clearing drains are copper based, and to get rid of volunteer elms, we hammer a few pennies into the bark.

        • You’re mistaking a small fact for the whole truth. Sure, you can say copper is poisonous (in excess quantities and in certain settings it can be), but to claim that makes it unsuitable as a lead replacement is ridiculous.

          In appropriate amounts, copper is a necessary human nutrient. Lead has no beneficial effects in the human system and is, by definition, poisonous.

          Wikipedia on copper:
          “Copper is an essential trace element in plants and animals, but not some microorganisms. The human body contains copper at a level of about 1.4 to 2.1 mg per kg of body mass.[107] Stated differently, the RDA for copper in normal healthy adults is quoted as 0.97 mg/day and as 3.0 mg/day.”

          Wikipedia on lead:
          Lead is a highly poisonous metal (regardless if inhaled or swallowed), affecting almost every organ and system in the body. The main target for lead toxicity is the nervous system, both in adults and children.

        • “In appropriate amounts, copper is a necessary human nutrient. Lead has no beneficial effects in the human system and is, by definition, poisonous.”

          Your error or deliberate deception should read, “in TRACE amounts, copper is a necessary human nutrient…”

          If you think it’s not toxic, raise a Sea Monkey colony and toss in a penny, and see how long it is before they die.

      • Where I grew up, I used to pick up galena (lead sulfide) nodules…I didn’t die, nor did the sundry wildlife seem to suffer. Lead occurs in nature, and is not imported from the moon. People need to call bullshit on stuff like this, and expose these campaigns as not only the work of gun controllers, but also radical animal rights lobbyists.

        • I had a sizable chunk (about an ounce) of Galena in a mineral set as a kid. Very beautiful crystalline structure. I handled it many times, and I’m living and pretty healthy today, fifty years later.

      • Do you have a better idea?

        I left that state 13 years ago and the only thing I miss is the specificity of the Chinese Restaurants.

        The elected folk think a simple majority gives them so kind of ‘voters mandate’ that authorizes them to pursue their pet political causes, like banning lead bullets. This causes jobs to be lost and those folks who supported those politicians move to other places and bring their crappy political ideas with them. That is how the crappy ideas spread, like some kind of influenza virus, call it politician-flu, and until we stop the spread we are all in danger.

        And the idea of digging a giant moat makes me giggle because it would be really funny to see Di-Fi underneath the bridge like the troll she is. I understand not everyone likes the difficulty of decorating around a moat so I also offer the suggestion of a nice wall. The wall works because you could put a nice picture in the middle and two book cases at either end and with the proper paint treatment could be very attractive to States like Arizona and Nevada.

        It is a big enough State, maybe we could do both a Moat AND a Wall. Dig a Moat across the Oregon border and then build a wall along the Nevada and Arizona Borders. I think they already have a wall, or at least a fence, along the Mexican border so you really only have to worry about the two sides of the state.

        • The fence doesn’t seem to work.

          California and Mexico have similar gun laws and similar problems. Oh, Mexico is worse for now, but the osmotic process will equalize things in the long run.


      • In response to you pinheads who don’t happen to live in the peoples republic of Kalifornia, there are lots of us who live mountain communities who depend upon deer, bear and upland game to supplement our winter food supplies, so don’t classify us all as leftist loonies (I can’t afford to move away). There are actually quite a few of us in this state who are unheard because of the idiots in the bay area and LA basin (where the money is), show a little restraint for us mountain folk.

  3. We’ll just have to wait and see what they say when the deer population first explodes and then plummets when overpopulation eliminates the food supply. Hypocrites.

  4. Copper is toxic to birds as well, they can get sick from ingesting pennies and other metal fragments – so if they are getting sick from ingesting ammo shards in meat, they will now get copper instead of lead. Part of me hopes this bill passes so its clear to everyone who was on the fence that the left would like to ban hunting, and that the ban on lead did nothing for condors.

    • Actually, the reason ingesting cents is problematic is that once stomach acid attacks the copper cladding, the zinc gets eaten in quantity.

      While copper is not healthy, a bolus of zinc will easily kill.

      • Unhappily for potential victims of pennies, both human, avian and other, I don’t believe they contain much copper any more. IIRC after 2011 they are 95% zinc.

    • I’m not well-informed on the condor issue. Like you, I find myself wishing they’d go ahead and DO it so hunters will finally realize it was never about hunting, but about disarming America as the final prelude to Total Nonstop Tyranny – what Orwell called “a boot stamping on the human face forever”.

      And Orwell wasn’t fictionalizing or predicting – he was British Intelligence; HE KNEW these people.

      • As for condors, from what I’ve read it seems there’s good evidence that lead is highly toxic to them; it’s a real problem. As to the source of the lead, the hypothesis is that it comes from fragments in the offal that hunters leave behind…but that’s only a raw guess. They’ve already tried lead ammunition bans in some areas near higher-density condor populations, and it hasn’t made a bit of difference. And these birds range down into Mexico, too, so nobody knows what they might encounter there.

        Like most of the progressives’ pet causes, this one consists of a kernel of truth wrapped in feel-good legislation that will do little to nothing about the actual problem, and instead will needlessly disrupt and restrict other people (which is really what they’re all about).

        • Right. Fixing the problem in the northern part of their range and NOT fixing it in the southern part of their range is a losing proposition.

          But Mexico’s a sovereign nation. Or used to be, before the narco-terrorists achieved domain. Now it’s a dysfunctional shell of a country, with much larger problems to be fixed than poisoned condors.

  5. I call bullsh¡t. Bismuth has been used in shotgun shells for years, and while nontoxic is heavier than lead and frangible.

    A tin-antimony or tin-bismuth bullet would be just fine, and the entire state of California represents a big enough market that ammo companies would certainly step up to the plate.

    Hell, tin-antimony and tin-bismuth would be one Hell of a lot less “armor piercing” than Commie milsurp.

    While there are many fronts in the war on 2A, this ain’t one of ’em and we should instead be focusing on the important stuff.

    • There is just much less tin than lead on this planet. Not mentioning bismuth and antimon. So how much will the new ammo cost, and how long before someome discovers it is also poisonous?

      • It’s unlikely to be “discovered” to be poisonous.

        We’ve known the toxicity of most stuff for a long time, but until recently we’d relatively lax standards concerning allowable levels in our environment, homes and selves.

        Antimony-tin is the usual solder for use with potable water pipes, f’rinstance.

        As for bismuth, it’s not exactly common but is also not widely used, the two most common uses being low-melt alloys for fire protection devices and munitions.

        Lead is used in far greater quantity by industry and in batteries than by munitions manufacturers.

        Yeah, the price would go up slightly, but only slightly. The brass and cupro-nickel jacket are by far the greater part of the expense of a cartridge.

        Non-jacketed would see a greater increase as a percentage of cost, but still not all that much — maybe 7-8 percent.

        Nickel, now… that’s an uncommon and expensive metal.

        • Bismuth is the active ingredient in pepto bismol. Not only is it non toxic, it is used as over the counter medicine.

        • There is some out of the butt marxist economic analysis for you. “Won’t cost much”.

          You think the PETA/Animal rights wackos are somehow a different demographin from the Antigun wackos, different from the radical progressive/anti Constitutionalists? WRONG

    • A lot of gun manufacturers can’t be arsed to submit guns for Cali’s safe guns list, what makes you think they will bother with ammo? The rest of the county will buy all they can make of the current stuff, its just not worth it. Unless other states adopt their stupid laws like 10 round limits and assault weapon bans, its not cost effective to meet Cali’s stupid demands.

      • I’m wide awake and vigilant. I’m just focusing on more pressing fronts in this war.

        The Eastern Front, to be precise…

        • Then we’ll focus on CA, because they have once again placed themselves on the cutting edge of gun control tyranny.

          Reloading ARs with a bullet button is dangerous – can’t have that
          Glock Gen 4s aren’t on the safe list – can’t have that
          No Suppressors
          No SBRs
          No mags over 10 rounds
          and the List continues.

          The purposes is too ban lead, the most popular bullet material in history.
          Oops. Copper is armor piercing. Oops copper is poisonous, too. Well gosh, we’d love to *allow* hunting, but its just to darn dangerous. Sorry, you backwards rednecks, but its for your own protection

          The CA narrative continues apace, and progressive liberal statists across the country are looking to it as a model.

        • “The issue from my view would be that the crazy stuff always starts in CA, then migrates west.”

          To Hawaii, y’mean?

    • Why call bullshit? There is no doubt whatever but that banning lead-core hunting bullets will raise the cost of hunting, in effect laying a new tax. Why, I would inquire, have Sweden and Finland not banned lead in hunting bullets? Both countries have a more active hunting culture. The roe deer and moose culls every year are enormous, and must be so to, among other things, reduce traffic accidents. Put aside the cost of redesigning bullets. Any frivolous and poorly motivated law impacting hunting should be opposed.

      I note that the feds already coerced manufacturers (Speer) from producing the world’s best dangerous thick skinned game solid bullet, because of its tungsten-carbide core, despite the absence of criminal usage. Criminals don’t carry high-energy bolt guns. Presumably they don’t like the recoil.

      Ah, the California condor, the natural totem of the CA legislator. It soars on hot air, cruises looking for carrion, and sometimes eats so much it can’t fly for awhile.

  6. Bravo for the San Francisco / Los Angeles / Sacramento Axis of Evil! The screwballs are managing to unite traditional hunters and 2A advocates. That hasn’t been done since the Cincinnati Revolution in 1977 when the FUDDs lost control of the NRA.

    However, I suspect that Gov. Moonbeam may veto this bill if it gets to his desk, while he signs every other ill-conceived piece of garbage that the legislature sends him. That way, he can claim that he’s “reasonable.”

    Whatever. It’s just Chinatown.

  7. The end game might be to ban hunting altogether, but it is simply FUD and irresponsible propaganda by TTAG and NSSF to say this bill would ban hunting. Leaving aside hunting with a bow, there already exists in virtually every store that sells ammo in CA non-lead hunting ammo. Indeed when I first got a rifle and asked to buy “hunting ammo” they initially tried selling me some expensive non lead stuff. Since the product already exists in the market, this will not end hunting. And leaded ammunition can still be used for basically any other purpose

    • “And leaded ammunition can still be used for basically any other purpose”

      NOT. IF. IT’S. BANNED. Wake up and smell the tyranny.

      • I shouldn’t respond to an idiot, but I will anyways.

        They aren’t banning lead ammunition. They aren’t banning hunting. The bill bans using lead ammunition for hunting. Lead bullets at the range or self-defense is not touched. The sale and possession of lead bullets is not touched

        They may try to ban farts in the future, but may and might and ifs are not within the scope of my points.

    • At least at this time “they” are not attempting to get the lead out of the range.

      Yes, it’s incremental and no, it’s not a serious front. We have far more pressing concerns.

  8. Copper bullets! There is no better way to kill a tree than to spike it with copper. Missed shots and pass through will kill a tree. It will ot be long before they are also banned. Putting copper into wide use really is a bad idea

    • Some bullets are jacketed with cupro-nickel, and most with building metal — a low-zinc brass.

      It’s far less corrosible and not a serious concers for trees. Noone’s suggesting pure copper bullets.

      There are plenty of substitutes for lead. Yes, it rankles but no, ths particular salvo doesn’t worry me.

  9. Ban on hunting? I thought they were not coming for our sniper rifles? Hahaha sorry but any hunters who do not believe in the true purpose of Second Amendment deserve this. How does it feel to be stuck on our side now?

  10. More STUPIDIY from Stupidville!Let these BOZOS bankrupt themselves.No bailouts !just continue to run yourselves out of business and BROKE.Then Donald Trump can buy them out and turn the whole place into Trump Plaza.

  11. C’mon. Seriously?

    You can cast your own bismuth/tin bullets. If you have a swaging press, you can put your own jackets on bismuth/tin cored bullets.

    One day, y’all are going to see that if you’re going to be a serious shootist, you’re going to have to start reloading.

  12. I learned lots of things about lead and copper and zinc and bismuth in this thread. The problem is, some of the things I learned disagree with some of the other things I learned. So I know more things, but it hasn’t lessened my overall ignorance by any appreciable amount. However, I cannot forget all those things I read. So thanks for taking up space my head, guys.

  13. Law of Unintended Consequences

    Prediction: When the Calif leftist greenies make hunting enough of a pain that the eeevil “sport hunters” give it up, they will believe that they have “saved” the animals. What they forget is that 90% of Cal Fish & Game’s budget is from hunting license fees. When that source of revenue dries up, the PRCa legislature will NOT fund CDFG from general funds – they will decide that no hunters means no need for F&G agents.

    Result? Calif poachers in the rural areas will rejoice. Even when I left the PRCa in 2004, there were fewer game wardens and more “-ologists” in CDFG – people “studying” wildlife but doing nothing to actually prevent poaching. When the CDFG budget disappears with the hunters, there will be no funding to stop the poachers, and more importantly, no more honest, sportsmen hunters out there reporting the poachers.

    Any Calif residents who want to have a freezer fully stocked with venison can just wait until Calif bans hunting. Bait stations for deer and bear are illegal now in Calif, but they will be highly popular with poachers who will no longer have to worry about licensed hunters finding the bait.

    Yessir, banning sport hunting will really be good for the wildlife. Not.

    • I don’t think it’s necessarily a “mental disorder”, per se. I think it’s a fundamental misapprehension of reality, however…

      • You are probably right, but my line is more catchy. In your honor, I shall try it this way.
        “Liberalism is a fundamental misapprehension of reality”. Ya know, it does sort of make the reader linger over the flames a bit…and I do so love a burned libtard.


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