The difference between islam and science.
The latter flies people to the moon.
The former in to buildings.
Peace and blessing be upon you, your wives and sex slaves.
Shalom.
In fairness, one can be said about religion vs science. One is based on fact, the other has become a vestigial subconscious tradition where people ignore logic and reason and embrace fantastical mysticism.
I was once laughed at by my friend not too long ago for finding out I believed in Santa Claus until I was 9 years old. I then said, “Well, you still believe in God. Who is the greater fool?”
I’m tired of the whole “don’t offend my religion” mentality. Why not? We should be allowed to question and criticize every unfounded, unsubstantiated belief structure that often causes people to blindly enact violence against each other. Goodness and morality are not mutually exclusive to those of any religion or faith.
Science got us to the moon. Not our belief in some divine entity. Think I’m full of shit? Look up the Epicurean Paradox. If you claim to be a creature of logic, that alone should settle it (his logical proof settled it in 300B.C., for smart people anyway). If not, you have some serious cognitive dissonance to sort out.
You do you, and we all support and respect your liberty to do so. In the meantime, respect my freedom to believe what I believe.
“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’…”
Psalm 14:1
Oh, and I grew up in the sciences. Astronomy, geology, biology, chemistry. The more I learn, the more I see that everything points toward Intelligent Design.
Well I believe lightning is caused by the Thunderbird, he shakes the sky and makes it rain. Fck science
Heh, I thought Thunderbird was the God of Hangovers.
Here I find some bird has replaced Thor!
“Heh, I thought Thunderbird was the God of Hangovers.”
The Hangover God is female, and she’s a first-class bitch…
“Heh, I thought Thunderbird was the God of Hangovers.”
Years ago, the Thunderbird was the God of getting laid… In ’58, the addition of a backseat made that a hell of a lot easier, too.
Your logic, and the Epicurean Paradox, fall apart upon the point of individual freedom of will and personal accountability. God is indeed omniscient, but if individual people have a choice on what to believe and how to act, some will choose evil. Then evil things will happen. The only way for an all-knowing, all-powerful God to disallow evil would be to script everything and everybody, and He has chosen not to do that. He does not want to be loved by robots who have no choice in the matter.
Actually it’s a pretty deep philosophical question that some of the greatest minds in Christendom have struggled with for two thousand years because it forces a detailed examination of things that most people hold dear based on a cursory examination.
It leads to a lot of other questions that are equally complex.
In that regard it’s similar to the divisibility and simultaneous indivisibility of the multilayered soul. 1000 page books by some of the brightest people in history fall depressingly short in exploring the topic.
Here’s my take (quick read, less than 1,000 pages). God gave us a choice between good or evil. If we didn’t have the freedom to choose, then we’d be slaves.
Your quick take ignores the questions raised about the fundamental nature of both God and the universe He created.
Studying those things is supposed to, in Christian doctrine, bring one to a better understanding and therefore greater love of God. Which, under said doctrine is literally the entire point of the religion.
Catholic or Protestant, this is THE core tenant of the of Christianity and the entire reason God sent Jesus to do what he did. Otherwise there’s no point in anything the religion does or says including attending Church, studying or reading the Bible or acting in accordance with God’s rules, which essentially cease to exist in a meaningful way. In fact the Bible itself becomes meaningless, sin ceases to matter as does benevolence and you’re back with the Stoic doctrine.
“Your quick take ignores the questions raised about the fundamental nature of both God and the universe He created.”
If I understand it correctly, the paradox implies that God is not benevolent because He doesn’t intervene to make our lives perfect and without suffering. My short take was He chose not to make us slaves because he IS benevolent. Regarding challenges we have to face on our own, a free ride, without suffering, on Earth was never promised.
As far as intervention goes, He has and does intervene, but not necessarily when you expect it. Most Christians take it on faith. I have experienced it firsthand. I’ve been commenting here long enough that you probably understand I’m not one to blow smoke. I won’t discuss it because it’s personal. I’ve only told two people about it, and only then because something traumatic happened, and I thought it would help them.
OK, so first time in a while for this but: apologies in advance for the length here but it’s not a bumpersticker type topic unless you just want to throw bombs and/or look silly. I’m not religious but I take this seriously because this is the kind of philosophical exercise that keeps you asking big questions and asking those big questions sets up a frame of reference (that frame being the ability to question if we’re correct rather than simply assuming that we must be correct) which made Western Civilization possible. It keeps us a touch humble and we lose that at our peril. We’ve lost quite a bit of it in the last 150 or so years and losing more, I think, is a really bad idea.
So…
“If I understand it correctly, the paradox implies that God is not benevolent because…”
Partly. The idea is that if evil exists God cannot be omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient all at the same time. Given the obvious existence of evil He either can’t get rid of it (not all powerful), won’t get rid of it (isn’t pure good) or both cannot and will not rid the world of evil (all of the above).
That’s actually a pretty good starting point for an inquiry into the nature of God and of the universe God created insofar as the nature of evil itself is concerned as well as our place within that universe.
Free will in and of itself doesn’t explain the existence of evil except in certain ways if we’re ascribing that free will to God Himself. God could have given us free will and simply not created evil. People would then have free will within a confined set of parameters but would none-the-less be free. In that regard it could function like the Laws of physics or the concept of Natural Rights, you’re free up to a point but the freedom is not unlimited. Free will doesn’t require an infinite set of choices, merely a choice. One could eliminate the evil options, leave only the good options and freedom would remain. You would, by definition, be free to make any possible choice. This is most certainly not slavery, much as the Left might want you to think so. Nor is not being able to run faster than the speed of light. When’s the last time you heard someone complain that they were a “slave” because they were incapable of running 300,000,000m/s? Would you even consider such an argument remotely valid?
Another option: God could have made us immune to the ill effects of evil, permitting the actions but removing the consequences. Some video games do this, allowing you to do something immoral and then imposing no punishment for it other than perhaps a mild chastisement on the screen. No omnipotence or benevolence is required for this, it’s easy for people so obviously easier for God.
On top of that, evil behavior does actually limit free will. Murder victims make no choices. Rape victims lose part of their free will. Aborted babies never have any free will. People paralyzed by a disease will never be free to go for a morning walk.
On top of that, is it really free will if someone else already knows in advance how you’ll act? If God is truly all knowing then he already knows what you’ll do and you can not do otherwise without making God wrong, which would make him unknowing of at least that thing and therefore not all-knowing. True free will would seem to create this problem for God because His ability to know the future must have some kind of mechanism that allows this knowledge, which by definition means that He has essentially planned things in advance. That’s not acceptable within the schema of Christianity because it makes us a puppet even if that’s not God’s intent and obviously whatever happens is God’s intent because he’s all powerful and all knowing so he doesn’t paint himself into such corners.
These are the sorts of problems that the paradox brings into view and asks us to consider. And very serious people over the years HAVE considered them.
One of the considerations about this is the question of the “silver lining”, something it took Christian philosophers a decently long time to find and even longer to figure out and then explain. See, the troll-type high-schoolish comments bashing on religion are actually pretty old but back in the day they were actual serious questions rather than kids thinking they’re the smartest people ever to walk the face of the Earth and being pricks about this assumed “fact”.
God is pure good, so he cannot create something of pure evil, there must be something good about that evil action, item or condition or God literally couldn’t have created it without sullying himself. Being all powerful he certainly could have created pure evil but would have lost his benevolence in the bargain. Christianity holds the latter part of this to not have happened. And why would it have happened? God’s all-knowing, again He doesn’t paint himself into corners, right?
So, if we hold that God is pure good as Christianity asserts and all powerful then we start to have to ask questions about the nature of evil, which is to say the universe and our place in it and how all these things interact.
For example: What happens to this whole thing if we ask a question? “Can there be pure evil?” Generally Christian doctrine has found the answer to this to be “No”. Even Satan himself serves some purpose to God and it is not necessarily our place to know that purpose, though it is certainly our place to try to know because if we understood that purpose we’d have a greater understanding and therefore greater love for God.
Which again, is why God sent Jesus to humanity. So that we might come to a better understanding and therefore greater love of God. This is obvious in that Jesus preached the Gospel. Were all that he to do was die for our sins then he could have died in childbirth and accomplished this. That didn’t happen because God felt we need to know certain things which Jesus was here to tell us. (Which in and of itself brings up the question of if Jesus had free will, which gets into the Catholic Trinity concept and I’m not going down that road here.)
This is why I don’t get the whole “Science v. Christianity” thing. In Christian doctrine science is a tool, based on rational thought, that’s a gift from God that He’s given us to grow over time in our understanding of the world around us and therefore grow in appreciation of Him and ultimately love him more. Science literally cannot be an enemy of God.
The only people who argue otherwise are Leftists who 1) don’t understand science and 2) hate religion. If they understood either one they’d know their arguments are crap. And if Christians were better educated on their own religion they’d know all of this too and cease to see science as some sort of threat.
Like my high school geometry teacher said, “the only dumb question is the one not asked.” So of course all of these are legitimate questions that someone could write a book about. I had to write essays on similar questions in college philosophy. I have no interest in writing essays on philosophy these days in my free time, if you know what I mean.
From what I understand of the Bible, we’re in a fallen creation. Death, decay, and suffering are part of life as we know it for the time being. Perhaps the existence of evil is necessary. How would we know what good is, if we didn’t know what evil was? How would we understand God if we didn’t understand what good was? That doesn’t mean that anyone that commits an evil act is damned. The most vile person in existence today can be saved.
“And if Christians were better educated on their own religion they’d know all of this too and cease to see science as some sort of threat.” I have to push back on this a bit. You’re lumping all Christians together. It sounds a bit prejudiced even though I know you didn’t mean it that way. I don’t see science as a threat. That’s absurd actually. I think some people have become overly sensitive to it because the Left uses “science” as a weapon to beat people over the head that they don’t like. This has been especially true in the last few years. People could also write books on the insincerity of the Left and their use of “science.”
You don’t have to write a book about it, the books have been written. But it is wise, IMHO, to think in bigger terms like this on occasion simply for the reference point it provides in dealing with questions of the day. Again, one of the biggest advantages the West has always had was that it didn’t always consider itself to be unquestionably correct. This “we make mistakes” (sin being an obvious one) point of view is invaluable and it comes to some extent from the Christian doctrine of trying to figure things out in terms of our relationship to God and trying to measure up to a higher standard in all things.
“I think some people have become overly sensitive to it because the Left uses “science” as a weapon to beat people over the head that they don’t like.”
While the Left certainly does do this the reaction within Christian circles is most certainly not solely because of this behavior on the part of the Left. Theological and philosophical publications have been bemoaning for decades that Seminary and other theological schools teach all this stuff to prospective clergy but that the information never makes it to the Church.
The reason for that is because it’s been a “hot button” issue for decades. The notion of a 6000 year old Earth, held by some sects of Christianity, is actually a pretty new concept that comes about in the 1800’s and becomes popularized as “creation science” in the 1960’s.
The popularization of this notion made it “impolitic” for Reverends, Pastors, Ministers and other Church leaders to talk about the actual philosophy of Christian doctrine. In attempting to “go along to get along” they essentially stopped teaching the Christian doctrine in Church and Sunday Schools.
You’re lumping all Christians together.
Perhaps it seems that way but even if I was I, sadly, wouldn’t that far off.
Last year (2019) 65% of the country self-identified as Christian. That same year Gallup found that 40% of the US population subscribed to “creation science” specifically in terms of Christianity. This means that nearly 2/3rds of Christians believe in “creation science”, which puts them at odds with actual science very nearly across the board.
And this is reflective of a change in thinking where many Christians are no longer questioning where they may or may not be correct/incorrect but rather are convinced to the point of zealotry that “science is anti-Christian”. Yet these same people cannot fathom the idea that if they were correct that would mean that our understanding of the world around us is so screwed up that nothing we have in terms of modern technology could function. This is a profound logical disconnect that didn’t exist in widespread belief until 60 years ago and it certainly reflects a degeneration in the overall intellectual curiosity of many Christian Churches and their adherents.
It also dovetails nearly exactly with the time frame for the degeneration of the public school system.
I would need to see the poll to understand the context of “creation science”. I have no problem believing scientific discoveries while also believing intelligent design, and I know I’m not alone. It makes more sense to me than some big oopsie accident where everything just fell into place to make life possible. I’ve seen examples of previously agnostic and atheist scientists who also came to agree with this. I agree with you that people should be challenged and it’s important to teach critical thinking.
Oh goody another morally and intellectually superior atheist here to sermonize us. Go to Terhan and preach your philosophy on the street and see what happens.
Every knee shall bow. Every tongue shall confess. We will all get religion. It is merely a question of whether in time or too late. One believes, one does not. One is wrong, one is right. I believe. You may not. I’d far rather be of my persuasion and be wrong, rather than to be of your persuasion and be wrong. Your eternity hangs in the balance. Your choice, your outcome. God gave Man free will choice. One’s heartbeats are fleeting.. …Chose. Beat…beat….beat…..do you have another heartbeat????? Only God knows. But, you will find out. I have chosen. Hope you choose to join me on the other side.
Which did nothing. It got us Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Cold War. It also got us atheism, which is a permanent boil on humanity’s @ss.
Is this comment some kind of joke? Totalitarian dictatorships brought us Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Science gave us gunpowder in the first place. Science is the reason any – I emphasize any – of us exist today. This isn’t even debatable.
You might want to read up a bit more on the Epicurean Paradox. It relies on assumptions, supposition and cognitive dissonance. It can be reasoned through in six questions.
You don’t have to believe in any supernatural being or existence, but that particular statement does not disprove anything.
Dave,
Do you still believe
1. Islam flew planes into those buildings
2. We actually went to the moon
You probably trust the World Health Organization, and Dr. Fauchi.
I’m starting to doubt the latter and reject the former. Almost everything mainstream media tells us is false. Muslim people may have flown planes into buildings but Islam did not.
Islam is a false religion, but it seems nearer to the Kingdom of God than either modern Western secular nihilism, or Judaism. Islam does not promote usury or sodomy.
The MOON isn’t REAL people. For the love of god you people get out there online and watch some YouTube videos. The MOON is a hollow ARTIFICIAL machine built by ALIENS to monitor earth. It’s all been proven by videos online. After all, how do you think the MOON got up there in the first place? Some f**king space dust just magically formed into a rock hard MOON!?!? Psh!!! Whatever!
Look, I’m not interested in an argument. Just want to point out that Islam is a tool like any other religion, like rifles, like science. Plenty of people use all of these things to the betterment of themselves and humanity. There are also dickheads who use them to destructive ends (unit 731 comes immediately to mind). The important thing is that there are a fuckload of people we disagree with who are just trying to use their tools to make this place a little brighter even if we can’t agree how exactly to do that, and all in spite of these fuckers who attacked us.
From one American to another on this day of remembrance, Peace, Freedom and Good Whiskey.
9/11 was a FALSE FLAG engineered by the Deep State Bush Administration, The Mossad, The Saud Family (VERY intimate with the Bush Family), and others in order to enact the Patriot Act and for other purposes.
See Bld 7 and the way the other buildings collapsed and explain it away if you can.
OUR own Govt is as much to blame as any other complicit soul.
The MOON is HOLLOW and so is the EARTH. You all must listen. 9/11 was CAUSED by the hollow MOON forces and hollow EARTH forces as a test of their power. Proof positive in MILLIONS of online videos!!!!
HOLLOW people. Hollow. Just like the Nazi Bell UFO TIME MACHINE…,The “die glocke”. Coincidence? Ha! I think NOT!!!!
I was working out of town when that happened. Anytime you work out of town you’re highly motivated to finish as quickly as possible. My crew was worthless after this news hit, understandably so.
A Terrorist is a Terrorist. Regardless of Religion or lack of it. Remember that the Victor writes the History or Removes it. We as a Nation are at that point in Our History. The struggle between remembering Our History or Removing it. New Jersey began removing flags from an Interstate this week that had hung since 9/11. Socialist Liberal Democrats are removing History from the schools and parks. Terrorism can be defined in many ways. The most insidious is the form that has been going on in Our Nation for Years. The Indoctrination of Our youth and the destruction of Our History. Remember The Victor Writes or Erases the History.
Keep Your Powder Dry.
Pricipal in Loudoun County, VA sent email to teachers directing them to not discuss what happened on 9/11. They were to simply say 9/11 was Patriots Day, a holiday.
My senior year in college I took History of the Veitnam War, a 100 level class, just for the credits.
I was confused that the Prof. had nearly a week at the front end of the class on 9/11 and so I asked about it.
She stated that mostly the people in the class were all freshman which but them in middle or grade school when 9/11 happened. “So what?” I asked. She then informed me that High Schools across the nation tended to avoid discussion of 9/11 because it was either deemed “too scary” for students or “too political”, which she sort of suggested was an issue with the teachers.
“New Jersey began removing flags from an Interstate this week that had hung since 9/11.”
As I understand it, they were hung on parkway property. I fully expect private property owners alongside the parkway to take up the slack, with likely more and larger flags…
Was typing on my Apple II, TV to the left. News broke in of the first crash, a scene from some news execs office looking across to the World Trade Centers when the second jet flew close, right past his window, a sight I’ll never forget. The rest is history.
I had an original McIntosh SE sitting on my table being used as an anolg clock that day. Vector monitors are good for that kind of shit.
That Tuesday was one of my days off and I was luxuriating in extra sleep when the news came on the radio I play all night long. I turned on the tube in the living room and watched. I was thinking small plane, and wondering how they would repair the building.
Then the second plane hit. I was filled with a cold rage, realizing what that meant…
We’re so far gone now, that it would be the American, anti-capitalist youth dancing in the streets. They’d probably loot stores as if their favorite sports team had just won.
Ah yes our daily dose of delusional jew hatred. Remember to check under your bed for a zionist skimming your paycheck before yo go to sleep.
AA you are so right. What better way to shirk responsibility than to blame the Jews? Blame them for the Desert Eagle. Blame them for the Israeli Bandage that has saved American lives. Blame them for modern medicines. Blame them for cell phone technology. Blame them for the processors that power your laptop. If people are going to hate on Jews they need to give up all the incredible innovations that Jews have brought to the modern world. Blame them for making peace with Egypt, Jordan, and now the U.A.E. Blame them for giving Israeli Arabs ( about 20% of the citizens of Israel ) equal rights for all.
Why blame them for the Desert Eagle? It makes a great boat anchor. That’s why they built it, right?
I still remember watching firefighters and police, damn near in formation, marching towards the towers before they came down, knowing full well what they were walking into. Damned bravest thing you ever saw. They did their duty all the way up until the end. Those were some real men, and real hero’s.
It’s been almost twenty years, and if the U.S. military wanted to engage in a conventional war using the military force and technology from twenty years ago, against any country today, it still would win. Is it any wonder that foreign entities are trying to destroy the US from the inside and using a major political party to help accomplish it under the guise of Social Justice?
I was working on a Army base for a logistics software implementation for a well known Consulting company.
They had monitors tuned to the news all around me. Saw it as soon as it happened to the first plane. Saw it when it happened to the second tower. Told everyone around me that the towers would come down in a couple of hours. No one believed me (I’m a Mech engineer – Materials strength speciality). Came down sooner than I thought. Lost 22 compatriots in the towers. Mostly young consultants.
At 9/11, I was at Cal Poly working on my EE and saw live-TV the 2nd building strike. I was at the Pentagon (I’m DoD Civ) a few years ago, visited the 9/11 memorial outside, but visiting the Chapel was more of a reflective moment. Each of the stained glass windows are dedicated to those that were killed in the attack, one is dedicated to the people on the plane, another for the sailors killed, another for the Army. The rebuild section Southwest corner was rebuilt to be structurally stronger.
For a few weeks, the Democrats actually seemed to care about something other than themselves. As usual though, it was all just a put on.
We have lost much as a nation since then. For many people, it was an awakening and from that point it truly started to become obvious just who the enemies of America were (foreign and domestic).
MSNBC used the first half of today’s 9/11 Moment of Silence to trash President Trump then jumped in half way through Taps being played. It is a Sad time when a MSM network’s hatred for a President is stronger than it’s Desire to Remember the 3000 Heroes and Citizens who lost the lives on that horrible day. The enemy lives among us and flaunts it’s distaste for all that makes Our Nation Great.
No human being has a right to travel to the USA or anywhere else. If we had secured national borders and kept tabs on visitors here, we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now. We already have enough home grown criminals. We don’t need to import them.
The rest of the world can fight and kill they way we did, to get the kind of country we have now. And It took us 400 plus years to get there. Other nations need to get started on their own. Every nation is founded in blood. Except when Czechoslovakia split in two. They seem to be the only ones, who didn’t end up killer each other, to form a new county.
I was driving to my office in Providence, listening to talk radio. The host was interviewing Buddy Cianci, the flamboyant mayor, when the first plane hit. The host said he was going to break away to cover the story. Cianci was p!ssed.
My best friend had an office in the South Tower. When the North Tower was hit, Morgan Stanley’s chief of security Rick Rescorla (known as “The Man Who Predicted 9/11” — watch the program if it’s on this week) ordered his fellow employees to evacuate. Fifteen minutes later, building security gave the all-clear and told everybody to go back to work. Rescorla countermanded that order. There’s no telling how many lives he saved.
My friend was not in the Tower that day, which I didn’t know for a couple of days.
Nineteen years later and we’re electing savages to public office in America. What a nation of idiots we’ve become!
I woke up to the TV being on which I thought was strange because my parents never had a TV on during the day. At first I figured it had to be a radio.
Walked into the living room to see both my parents standing there watching the TV. WTF? I looked over and saw the second plane hit but the other tower on fire in the background didn’t really register with me as being independent of what I’d just seen. So I asked why my parents were watching an aviation accident.
In her typical understated and almost alarmingly calm manner my mom points to the TV and says “That was the second one”.
Strangely, that morning it was the adults in my high school that were panicked, not the kids. While the teachers and administrators talked about “future attacks” and if they might be in our area the students were calm. And very quietly upperclassmen started circulating the where the local recruiting stations were for the various branches.
The damn strangest of high school I’d had. Stranger than Columbine. Yet somehow also one of those days where the students managed to hold it together better than I’d have expected. Kind of a grim emotional trip but still oddly cerebral in my neck of the woods.
I don’t pretend to possess the ability to read minds but I would say “No” to this question as a general rule.
One of the things that ya’ll older people don’t seem to get about Millennials is that we are not a monolithic generation. At all. There are some large divides within the generation that are mostly based on time but secondarily on parents in terms of age/style. In this case the one that matters is time.
Millennials run from 24-39 years of age at this point and those of us in the upper part of this range don’t really understand the ones in the lower ranges. The differences become more marked as the age brackets get farther apart.
Columbine was the second semester of my freshman year in HS. Over the summer many state legislatures changed the laws surrounding certain portions of schooling enormously. Where I grew up, my sophomore year we had constant daily announcements as hunting seasons approached reminding us that bringing a firearm to school was now a serious crime. This was done because the people who had been sophomores and juniors the previous year were used to the culture of bringing a gun to school to hunt after school.
As time went on the rules became more rigid and the punishments for even minor infractions became more draconian. For example, those who liked to wear a chain wallet were suddenly told that the chain constituted a weapon and could no longer be worn. Many chaffed at this, pointed out the potential lethality of a sharpened pencil or the strangulation tool found in a power or even mouse cord.
This sort of resistance continued until I graduated HS in 2002 simply because those of us in that age group had grown up with a set of freedoms that had been stripped from us and which not a single one of us had actually done anything with in terms of “abusing” them. The two fuckers that did were dead. Why are we being punished? The kids who were in the upper bracket for Middle School knew these freedoms too and similarly resented the loss of these freedoms. (By this point encompassing dress codes, speech and other behaviors.)
But the kids who were too young to have ever known them? They got to HS and they were compliant. They never knew about being allowed to wear a chain wallet, tell an off-color joke about violence, wear a T-shirt with an image of gun or a weasel smoking a cigarette on it. IMHO, that divide is right around the 31/32 age bracket today. Perhaps a bit younger or older depending on location.
At the same time the younger kids didn’t just lose those freedoms and not know it the grade schools also altered their curriculum to prevent any, uh, agitation when the boys got a shot of testosterone later in life. So, for example, my cousin who’s also a Millennial will tell you a story you’ve never heard before about Little Red Riding Hood. One where there is ZERO violence. No mention of large teeth or eyes either. Everything is resolved by a Woodsman talking to a wolf about how the wolf is a bully.
And if you bother to check a library you will find that *new* story in the books there. My best friend and I were stunned by this and further stunned when the Librarian offered to show us the “bad books” that they still had but would only produce upon *special* request. (And no, not porn or even Aeon Flux comics. I mean the originals of all those “unacceptably violent children’s tales”.)
The result of this is that as you go further down the age scale of Millennials you get more and more snowflakery and you find that the people in the older age brackets have less and less in common with those in the younger brackets who really have more in common with the Zoomers than they do with people like myself.
“One of the things that ya’ll older people don’t seem to get about Millennials is that we are not a monolithic generation.”
I don’t *think* I’ve ever pidgin-holed you but I apologize if I had.
It was a simple question based on your experience at the time of being in close proximity to a mass criminal event.
*Technically* I’m a ‘Boomer’ but I have no similarities what one would call a ”Boomer’. In every way I identify as being ‘Gex X’ in culture and identity.
So that makes you and I alike in generational identity… misconceptions?
So I apologize if you were offended by a simple question of your personal experience of the environment you were in at the time…
In no way am I offended and, no, you’ve never attempted or inadvertently pigeonholed me. Really, I don’t get offended. It’s not a response I’m familiar with other than on an academic level.
This was a good place to point out a general issue. Hence my use of the general term “ya’ll older people”.
And the short answer to your original question is “No, I don’t think the kids were “numbed” by Columbine on 9/11″ but that probably can’t be well understood without an explanation of the reason which is that they are in many ways fundamentally different in mindset than the kids who came not too many years after.
And interestingly that change was brought about indirectly by Columbine when the school system had it’s own little version the The Patriot Act in response to the shooting.
Boomers aren’t a monolith either.
I never said they were.
Something that should of not happened in America!
Why didn’t the people fight back against unarmed sissies?
Those readily identifiable people have been killing innocents for centuries!
Strange the things that move you. For me, here on Long Island, it was the cars left at train stations for days after, waiting for people who would never return.
I was doing apparatus checks at my FD when out the going shift told me someone had flown into one of the towers. Blew it off as an accident. Within hours, we knew we had a bigger problem, within days my dear Wife’s aircraft carrier was being deployed. #NeverForget #NeverForgive
I was at my Apartment. I worked evenings so I had not left for work yet. A woman I knew called me and asked if I was watching the tv. I turned it on to the towers being hit and then falling. I went on to work but I nearly had the freeway to myself. I live in the bay area of ca. One of the busiest air spaces in the world. The absolute lack of air traffic was creepy. For two weeks the freeways were nearly empty.
I also remember JFK, RFK and MLK. We sure have lived in interesting times. I wish it would get boring someday.
I was driving on I-25 north of Albuquerque, heading to Los Alamos National Labs to deliver a large construction forklift. I had heard a brief news story, at the top of the hour, about a small aircraft hitting one of the towers. I switched to an all-news radio station and listened to a reporterette giving a live, on-the-scene report about the first tower. She suddenly screamed and said that another jet had just flown into the other tower, what is going on. I radioed my dispatcher and told him to turn on the TV in the lunch room right now, that America might be at war.
Dispatch called me 30 minutes later and said to turn around, the Labs were closed until further notice.
I was in boot camp when the USS Cole was struck by a small boat suicide bomber.
A year later on 9/11 I was just finishing up my naval electronics school in Virginia, the base was locked down immediately and all classes were cancelled.
By December I had boarded my ship (who had been on their way to the Bahamas when they did a 180) and we were east bound across the Atlantic.
Saw it live. Getting the boy’s ready foh wellor school. Surrealistic. I couldn’t believe my eye’s. I also couldn’t comprehend WHY W & the other idiot’s were so hellbent on conquering Iraq. Or spending 19 years in Afghanistan. Or turning America into a police state. All to feel “safe”…oh well😳
First off — Respect for all that serve, whether it be Red, Blue, or Green
1- A retired foreman told me that the City Fire Commissioner rejected the building plans for the Towers..so he was replaced with someone that would sign off on them..
2- There was a previous ‘attack’ in the garage of the Towers a few years before, one would think security would stay beefed up..
3- The new radios that the Fire Department used were known to be defective..
4- Workers, (mostly construction), responded to help dig three days before the mayor shown up..
5- The city ordered the recovery over when the ‘yellow bricks’ were found..
6- Volunteers continued to dig until the last known survivors, (two Port Authority Officers), were saved..
7- The government lied about air quality in the weeks after the attack..
There is more, but I try not to think about it………..
True,,,thanks for the help—memory is slipping——remembered another rumors(?)——-when one of the terrorist
pilots was taking his training to flight the large craft, after being told the next lesson would be on landing—–his reply to the instruct was “I do not need to know that”. I do not know if this is true, but knowing that the above mentioned number two is true, and the old saying “Money talks”, it was probably just put off as a joke..
Are we celebrating “Patriots Day”? Or that we are living through the time of two more epic lies perpetrated on the american people: 9/11 and the “plandemic”. Apparently we haven’t learned our lesson, and here we are.
Other government lies: JFK wasnt by the mob and elements of our government. Gulf of Tonkin wasnt a false flag. The Lusitania wasn’t a false flag.
All the religions around the world over the entirety of humanity had believers just like you that trusted with all their heart that they belong to the ONE TRUE religion. You know that all the rest of them were wrong. Odds are so are you. There is a reason you call yourselves and your fellow followers a flock.
🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕 🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕 🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕Allah, mor ham Ed, and all muslims!
… so I got me a pen and some paper, and I made up my own little sign ; it said “Thank you Lord , for thinkin’ ‘ bout me – I’m alive , and doing fine ! “….. signs, signs , everywhere a sign
The difference between islam and science.
The latter flies people to the moon.
The former in to buildings.
Peace and blessing be upon you, your wives and sex slaves.
Shalom.
In fairness, one can be said about religion vs science. One is based on fact, the other has become a vestigial subconscious tradition where people ignore logic and reason and embrace fantastical mysticism.
I was once laughed at by my friend not too long ago for finding out I believed in Santa Claus until I was 9 years old. I then said, “Well, you still believe in God. Who is the greater fool?”
I’m tired of the whole “don’t offend my religion” mentality. Why not? We should be allowed to question and criticize every unfounded, unsubstantiated belief structure that often causes people to blindly enact violence against each other. Goodness and morality are not mutually exclusive to those of any religion or faith.
Science got us to the moon. Not our belief in some divine entity. Think I’m full of shit? Look up the Epicurean Paradox. If you claim to be a creature of logic, that alone should settle it (his logical proof settled it in 300B.C., for smart people anyway). If not, you have some serious cognitive dissonance to sort out.
You do you, and we all support and respect your liberty to do so. In the meantime, respect my freedom to believe what I believe.
“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’…”
Psalm 14:1
Oh, and I grew up in the sciences. Astronomy, geology, biology, chemistry. The more I learn, the more I see that everything points toward Intelligent Design.
Well I believe lightning is caused by the Thunderbird, he shakes the sky and makes it rain. Fck science
Heh, I thought Thunderbird was the God of Hangovers.
Here I find some bird has replaced Thor!
“Heh, I thought Thunderbird was the God of Hangovers.”
The Hangover God is female, and she’s a first-class bitch…
“Heh, I thought Thunderbird was the God of Hangovers.”
Years ago, the Thunderbird was the God of getting laid… In ’58, the addition of a backseat made that a hell of a lot easier, too.
Your logic, and the Epicurean Paradox, fall apart upon the point of individual freedom of will and personal accountability. God is indeed omniscient, but if individual people have a choice on what to believe and how to act, some will choose evil. Then evil things will happen. The only way for an all-knowing, all-powerful God to disallow evil would be to script everything and everybody, and He has chosen not to do that. He does not want to be loved by robots who have no choice in the matter.
couldn’t edit ‘Gid’ to ‘God’, but you get the idea…
“Epicurean Paradox”
Evil exists, therefore there is no God. Hmm, that’s deep. Was this guy a Harvard graduate?
Actually it’s a pretty deep philosophical question that some of the greatest minds in Christendom have struggled with for two thousand years because it forces a detailed examination of things that most people hold dear based on a cursory examination.
It leads to a lot of other questions that are equally complex.
In that regard it’s similar to the divisibility and simultaneous indivisibility of the multilayered soul. 1000 page books by some of the brightest people in history fall depressingly short in exploring the topic.
Here’s my take (quick read, less than 1,000 pages). God gave us a choice between good or evil. If we didn’t have the freedom to choose, then we’d be slaves.
Your quick take ignores the questions raised about the fundamental nature of both God and the universe He created.
Studying those things is supposed to, in Christian doctrine, bring one to a better understanding and therefore greater love of God. Which, under said doctrine is literally the entire point of the religion.
Catholic or Protestant, this is THE core tenant of the of Christianity and the entire reason God sent Jesus to do what he did. Otherwise there’s no point in anything the religion does or says including attending Church, studying or reading the Bible or acting in accordance with God’s rules, which essentially cease to exist in a meaningful way. In fact the Bible itself becomes meaningless, sin ceases to matter as does benevolence and you’re back with the Stoic doctrine.
“Your quick take ignores the questions raised about the fundamental nature of both God and the universe He created.”
If I understand it correctly, the paradox implies that God is not benevolent because He doesn’t intervene to make our lives perfect and without suffering. My short take was He chose not to make us slaves because he IS benevolent. Regarding challenges we have to face on our own, a free ride, without suffering, on Earth was never promised.
As far as intervention goes, He has and does intervene, but not necessarily when you expect it. Most Christians take it on faith. I have experienced it firsthand. I’ve been commenting here long enough that you probably understand I’m not one to blow smoke. I won’t discuss it because it’s personal. I’ve only told two people about it, and only then because something traumatic happened, and I thought it would help them.
OK, so first time in a while for this but: apologies in advance for the length here but it’s not a bumpersticker type topic unless you just want to throw bombs and/or look silly. I’m not religious but I take this seriously because this is the kind of philosophical exercise that keeps you asking big questions and asking those big questions sets up a frame of reference (that frame being the ability to question if we’re correct rather than simply assuming that we must be correct) which made Western Civilization possible. It keeps us a touch humble and we lose that at our peril. We’ve lost quite a bit of it in the last 150 or so years and losing more, I think, is a really bad idea.
So…
“If I understand it correctly, the paradox implies that God is not benevolent because…”
Partly. The idea is that if evil exists God cannot be omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient all at the same time. Given the obvious existence of evil He either can’t get rid of it (not all powerful), won’t get rid of it (isn’t pure good) or both cannot and will not rid the world of evil (all of the above).
That’s actually a pretty good starting point for an inquiry into the nature of God and of the universe God created insofar as the nature of evil itself is concerned as well as our place within that universe.
Free will in and of itself doesn’t explain the existence of evil except in certain ways if we’re ascribing that free will to God Himself. God could have given us free will and simply not created evil. People would then have free will within a confined set of parameters but would none-the-less be free. In that regard it could function like the Laws of physics or the concept of Natural Rights, you’re free up to a point but the freedom is not unlimited. Free will doesn’t require an infinite set of choices, merely a choice. One could eliminate the evil options, leave only the good options and freedom would remain. You would, by definition, be free to make any possible choice. This is most certainly not slavery, much as the Left might want you to think so. Nor is not being able to run faster than the speed of light. When’s the last time you heard someone complain that they were a “slave” because they were incapable of running 300,000,000m/s? Would you even consider such an argument remotely valid?
Another option: God could have made us immune to the ill effects of evil, permitting the actions but removing the consequences. Some video games do this, allowing you to do something immoral and then imposing no punishment for it other than perhaps a mild chastisement on the screen. No omnipotence or benevolence is required for this, it’s easy for people so obviously easier for God.
On top of that, evil behavior does actually limit free will. Murder victims make no choices. Rape victims lose part of their free will. Aborted babies never have any free will. People paralyzed by a disease will never be free to go for a morning walk.
On top of that, is it really free will if someone else already knows in advance how you’ll act? If God is truly all knowing then he already knows what you’ll do and you can not do otherwise without making God wrong, which would make him unknowing of at least that thing and therefore not all-knowing. True free will would seem to create this problem for God because His ability to know the future must have some kind of mechanism that allows this knowledge, which by definition means that He has essentially planned things in advance. That’s not acceptable within the schema of Christianity because it makes us a puppet even if that’s not God’s intent and obviously whatever happens is God’s intent because he’s all powerful and all knowing so he doesn’t paint himself into such corners.
These are the sorts of problems that the paradox brings into view and asks us to consider. And very serious people over the years HAVE considered them.
One of the considerations about this is the question of the “silver lining”, something it took Christian philosophers a decently long time to find and even longer to figure out and then explain. See, the troll-type high-schoolish comments bashing on religion are actually pretty old but back in the day they were actual serious questions rather than kids thinking they’re the smartest people ever to walk the face of the Earth and being pricks about this assumed “fact”.
God is pure good, so he cannot create something of pure evil, there must be something good about that evil action, item or condition or God literally couldn’t have created it without sullying himself. Being all powerful he certainly could have created pure evil but would have lost his benevolence in the bargain. Christianity holds the latter part of this to not have happened. And why would it have happened? God’s all-knowing, again He doesn’t paint himself into corners, right?
So, if we hold that God is pure good as Christianity asserts and all powerful then we start to have to ask questions about the nature of evil, which is to say the universe and our place in it and how all these things interact.
For example: What happens to this whole thing if we ask a question? “Can there be pure evil?” Generally Christian doctrine has found the answer to this to be “No”. Even Satan himself serves some purpose to God and it is not necessarily our place to know that purpose, though it is certainly our place to try to know because if we understood that purpose we’d have a greater understanding and therefore greater love for God.
Which again, is why God sent Jesus to humanity. So that we might come to a better understanding and therefore greater love of God. This is obvious in that Jesus preached the Gospel. Were all that he to do was die for our sins then he could have died in childbirth and accomplished this. That didn’t happen because God felt we need to know certain things which Jesus was here to tell us. (Which in and of itself brings up the question of if Jesus had free will, which gets into the Catholic Trinity concept and I’m not going down that road here.)
This is why I don’t get the whole “Science v. Christianity” thing. In Christian doctrine science is a tool, based on rational thought, that’s a gift from God that He’s given us to grow over time in our understanding of the world around us and therefore grow in appreciation of Him and ultimately love him more. Science literally cannot be an enemy of God.
The only people who argue otherwise are Leftists who 1) don’t understand science and 2) hate religion. If they understood either one they’d know their arguments are crap. And if Christians were better educated on their own religion they’d know all of this too and cease to see science as some sort of threat.
Like my high school geometry teacher said, “the only dumb question is the one not asked.” So of course all of these are legitimate questions that someone could write a book about. I had to write essays on similar questions in college philosophy. I have no interest in writing essays on philosophy these days in my free time, if you know what I mean.
From what I understand of the Bible, we’re in a fallen creation. Death, decay, and suffering are part of life as we know it for the time being. Perhaps the existence of evil is necessary. How would we know what good is, if we didn’t know what evil was? How would we understand God if we didn’t understand what good was? That doesn’t mean that anyone that commits an evil act is damned. The most vile person in existence today can be saved.
“And if Christians were better educated on their own religion they’d know all of this too and cease to see science as some sort of threat.” I have to push back on this a bit. You’re lumping all Christians together. It sounds a bit prejudiced even though I know you didn’t mean it that way. I don’t see science as a threat. That’s absurd actually. I think some people have become overly sensitive to it because the Left uses “science” as a weapon to beat people over the head that they don’t like. This has been especially true in the last few years. People could also write books on the insincerity of the Left and their use of “science.”
You don’t have to write a book about it, the books have been written. But it is wise, IMHO, to think in bigger terms like this on occasion simply for the reference point it provides in dealing with questions of the day. Again, one of the biggest advantages the West has always had was that it didn’t always consider itself to be unquestionably correct. This “we make mistakes” (sin being an obvious one) point of view is invaluable and it comes to some extent from the Christian doctrine of trying to figure things out in terms of our relationship to God and trying to measure up to a higher standard in all things.
“I think some people have become overly sensitive to it because the Left uses “science” as a weapon to beat people over the head that they don’t like.”
While the Left certainly does do this the reaction within Christian circles is most certainly not solely because of this behavior on the part of the Left. Theological and philosophical publications have been bemoaning for decades that Seminary and other theological schools teach all this stuff to prospective clergy but that the information never makes it to the Church.
The reason for that is because it’s been a “hot button” issue for decades. The notion of a 6000 year old Earth, held by some sects of Christianity, is actually a pretty new concept that comes about in the 1800’s and becomes popularized as “creation science” in the 1960’s.
The popularization of this notion made it “impolitic” for Reverends, Pastors, Ministers and other Church leaders to talk about the actual philosophy of Christian doctrine. In attempting to “go along to get along” they essentially stopped teaching the Christian doctrine in Church and Sunday Schools.
You’re lumping all Christians together.
Perhaps it seems that way but even if I was I, sadly, wouldn’t that far off.
Last year (2019) 65% of the country self-identified as Christian. That same year Gallup found that 40% of the US population subscribed to “creation science” specifically in terms of Christianity. This means that nearly 2/3rds of Christians believe in “creation science”, which puts them at odds with actual science very nearly across the board.
And this is reflective of a change in thinking where many Christians are no longer questioning where they may or may not be correct/incorrect but rather are convinced to the point of zealotry that “science is anti-Christian”. Yet these same people cannot fathom the idea that if they were correct that would mean that our understanding of the world around us is so screwed up that nothing we have in terms of modern technology could function. This is a profound logical disconnect that didn’t exist in widespread belief until 60 years ago and it certainly reflects a degeneration in the overall intellectual curiosity of many Christian Churches and their adherents.
It also dovetails nearly exactly with the time frame for the degeneration of the public school system.
I would need to see the poll to understand the context of “creation science”. I have no problem believing scientific discoveries while also believing intelligent design, and I know I’m not alone. It makes more sense to me than some big oopsie accident where everything just fell into place to make life possible. I’ve seen examples of previously agnostic and atheist scientists who also came to agree with this. I agree with you that people should be challenged and it’s important to teach critical thinking.
Oh goody another morally and intellectually superior atheist here to sermonize us. Go to Terhan and preach your philosophy on the street and see what happens.
Every knee shall bow. Every tongue shall confess. We will all get religion. It is merely a question of whether in time or too late. One believes, one does not. One is wrong, one is right. I believe. You may not. I’d far rather be of my persuasion and be wrong, rather than to be of your persuasion and be wrong. Your eternity hangs in the balance. Your choice, your outcome. God gave Man free will choice. One’s heartbeats are fleeting.. …Chose. Beat…beat….beat…..do you have another heartbeat????? Only God knows. But, you will find out. I have chosen. Hope you choose to join me on the other side.
Didn’t Albert Einstein reply when ask if he believed in God,
“I’d be a fool if I didn’t”.
In other words, what do you have to lose by believing?
“Science got us to the moon.”
Which did nothing. It got us Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Cold War. It also got us atheism, which is a permanent boil on humanity’s @ss.
Which did nothing. It got us Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Cold War. It also got us atheism, which is a permanent boil on humanity’s @ss.
Is this comment some kind of joke? Totalitarian dictatorships brought us Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Science gave us gunpowder in the first place. Science is the reason any – I emphasize any – of us exist today. This isn’t even debatable.
You might want to read up a bit more on the Epicurean Paradox. It relies on assumptions, supposition and cognitive dissonance. It can be reasoned through in six questions.
You don’t have to believe in any supernatural being or existence, but that particular statement does not disprove anything.
You’re not very wise…. and you’re life inexperience is glaringly obvious…
I’m thinking you’re just ignorant…
Dave,
Do you still believe
1. Islam flew planes into those buildings
2. We actually went to the moon
You probably trust the World Health Organization, and Dr. Fauchi.
I’m starting to doubt the latter and reject the former. Almost everything mainstream media tells us is false. Muslim people may have flown planes into buildings but Islam did not.
Islam is a false religion, but it seems nearer to the Kingdom of God than either modern Western secular nihilism, or Judaism. Islam does not promote usury or sodomy.
It’s great being an animist, no my gods better then your God stuff.
The MOON isn’t REAL people. For the love of god you people get out there online and watch some YouTube videos. The MOON is a hollow ARTIFICIAL machine built by ALIENS to monitor earth. It’s all been proven by videos online. After all, how do you think the MOON got up there in the first place? Some f**king space dust just magically formed into a rock hard MOON!?!? Psh!!! Whatever!
Look, I’m not interested in an argument. Just want to point out that Islam is a tool like any other religion, like rifles, like science. Plenty of people use all of these things to the betterment of themselves and humanity. There are also dickheads who use them to destructive ends (unit 731 comes immediately to mind). The important thing is that there are a fuckload of people we disagree with who are just trying to use their tools to make this place a little brighter even if we can’t agree how exactly to do that, and all in spite of these fuckers who attacked us.
From one American to another on this day of remembrance, Peace, Freedom and Good Whiskey.
9/11 was a FALSE FLAG engineered by the Deep State Bush Administration, The Mossad, The Saud Family (VERY intimate with the Bush Family), and others in order to enact the Patriot Act and for other purposes.
See Bld 7 and the way the other buildings collapsed and explain it away if you can.
OUR own Govt is as much to blame as any other complicit soul.
Don’t forget the earth is flat and we never went to the moon.
The MOON is HOLLOW and so is the EARTH. You all must listen. 9/11 was CAUSED by the hollow MOON forces and hollow EARTH forces as a test of their power. Proof positive in MILLIONS of online videos!!!!
HOLLOW people. Hollow. Just like the Nazi Bell UFO TIME MACHINE…,The “die glocke”. Coincidence? Ha! I think NOT!!!!
I was working out of town when that happened. Anytime you work out of town you’re highly motivated to finish as quickly as possible. My crew was worthless after this news hit, understandably so.
A Terrorist is a Terrorist. Regardless of Religion or lack of it. Remember that the Victor writes the History or Removes it. We as a Nation are at that point in Our History. The struggle between remembering Our History or Removing it. New Jersey began removing flags from an Interstate this week that had hung since 9/11. Socialist Liberal Democrats are removing History from the schools and parks. Terrorism can be defined in many ways. The most insidious is the form that has been going on in Our Nation for Years. The Indoctrination of Our youth and the destruction of Our History. Remember The Victor Writes or Erases the History.
Keep Your Powder Dry.
“…remembering Our History or Removing it…”
Pricipal in Loudoun County, VA sent email to teachers directing them to not discuss what happened on 9/11. They were to simply say 9/11 was Patriots Day, a holiday.
NOVA, among many other issues, has a high percentage Muslim population.
That kind of thing really does grind my gears.
My senior year in college I took History of the Veitnam War, a 100 level class, just for the credits.
I was confused that the Prof. had nearly a week at the front end of the class on 9/11 and so I asked about it.
She stated that mostly the people in the class were all freshman which but them in middle or grade school when 9/11 happened. “So what?” I asked. She then informed me that High Schools across the nation tended to avoid discussion of 9/11 because it was either deemed “too scary” for students or “too political”, which she sort of suggested was an issue with the teachers.
I was, and still am, appalled by this.
“New Jersey began removing flags from an Interstate this week that had hung since 9/11.”
As I understand it, they were hung on parkway property. I fully expect private property owners alongside the parkway to take up the slack, with likely more and larger flags…
Who woulda thunk our own leftards would be WORSE than any moose-lims?!?
I wondered about that question way back then. I’m pretty certain about it now.
Was typing on my Apple II, TV to the left. News broke in of the first crash, a scene from some news execs office looking across to the World Trade Centers when the second jet flew close, right past his window, a sight I’ll never forget. The rest is history.
I’m impressed that you were using an Apple II in 2001. The last time I used an Apple II was about 1994 (and it was way outdated then).
You sure that Apple II memory wasn’t from the Challenger explosion in 1986? ☺️
I had an original McIntosh SE sitting on my table being used as an anolg clock that day. Vector monitors are good for that kind of shit.
That Tuesday was one of my days off and I was luxuriating in extra sleep when the news came on the radio I play all night long. I turned on the tube in the living room and watched. I was thinking small plane, and wondering how they would repair the building.
Then the second plane hit. I was filled with a cold rage, realizing what that meant…
TTAG monetizing 9/11
Google “dancing Israelis “
Those were Palestinians.
In fact, it was the terror group “Islamic jihad.”
I remember watching that live too.
There were dancing Palestinians. There were also dancing Israelis.
We’re so far gone now, that it would be the American, anti-capitalist youth dancing in the streets. They’d probably loot stores as if their favorite sports team had just won.
Ah yes our daily dose of delusional jew hatred. Remember to check under your bed for a zionist skimming your paycheck before yo go to sleep.
AA you are so right. What better way to shirk responsibility than to blame the Jews? Blame them for the Desert Eagle. Blame them for the Israeli Bandage that has saved American lives. Blame them for modern medicines. Blame them for cell phone technology. Blame them for the processors that power your laptop. If people are going to hate on Jews they need to give up all the incredible innovations that Jews have brought to the modern world. Blame them for making peace with Egypt, Jordan, and now the U.A.E. Blame them for giving Israeli Arabs ( about 20% of the citizens of Israel ) equal rights for all.
Why blame them for the Desert Eagle? It makes a great boat anchor. That’s why they built it, right?
I still remember watching firefighters and police, damn near in formation, marching towards the towers before they came down, knowing full well what they were walking into. Damned bravest thing you ever saw. They did their duty all the way up until the end. Those were some real men, and real hero’s.
+100.
Indeed! Honorable men. God bless them
Still emotional to remember that image.
But I damn sure don’t want to forget.
It’s been almost twenty years, and if the U.S. military wanted to engage in a conventional war using the military force and technology from twenty years ago, against any country today, it still would win. Is it any wonder that foreign entities are trying to destroy the US from the inside and using a major political party to help accomplish it under the guise of Social Justice?
I was working on a Army base for a logistics software implementation for a well known Consulting company.
They had monitors tuned to the news all around me. Saw it as soon as it happened to the first plane. Saw it when it happened to the second tower. Told everyone around me that the towers would come down in a couple of hours. No one believed me (I’m a Mech engineer – Materials strength speciality). Came down sooner than I thought. Lost 22 compatriots in the towers. Mostly young consultants.
At 9/11, I was at Cal Poly working on my EE and saw live-TV the 2nd building strike. I was at the Pentagon (I’m DoD Civ) a few years ago, visited the 9/11 memorial outside, but visiting the Chapel was more of a reflective moment. Each of the stained glass windows are dedicated to those that were killed in the attack, one is dedicated to the people on the plane, another for the sailors killed, another for the Army. The rebuild section Southwest corner was rebuilt to be structurally stronger.
For a few weeks, the Democrats actually seemed to care about something other than themselves. As usual though, it was all just a put on.
We have lost much as a nation since then. For many people, it was an awakening and from that point it truly started to become obvious just who the enemies of America were (foreign and domestic).
“For a few weeks, the Democrats actually seemed to care about something other than themselves.”
Actually it is the exact opposite, they were scared beyond words for themselves, and actually STFU.
They soon found their inner them; a Scorpion doesn’t shed its stinger.
Maybe that’s why it just ‘seemed’ that way.
MSNBC used the first half of today’s 9/11 Moment of Silence to trash President Trump then jumped in half way through Taps being played. It is a Sad time when a MSM network’s hatred for a President is stronger than it’s Desire to Remember the 3000 Heroes and Citizens who lost the lives on that horrible day. The enemy lives among us and flaunts it’s distaste for all that makes Our Nation Great.
Scum always rises to the top my good sir.
No, it’s cream rises to the top. Never heard scum rises to the top, that don’t make no sense to me
He may be referring to the scum that rises to the top of a sewage pond.
I got a call from my mom after the first plane hit. Turned on the tv then popped a blank cassette into the vcr and hit record.
I still have that tape.
19 years already, my goodness time flies. I was in Kansas mowing a cemetery .
No human being has a right to travel to the USA or anywhere else. If we had secured national borders and kept tabs on visitors here, we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now. We already have enough home grown criminals. We don’t need to import them.
The rest of the world can fight and kill they way we did, to get the kind of country we have now. And It took us 400 plus years to get there. Other nations need to get started on their own. Every nation is founded in blood. Except when Czechoslovakia split in two. They seem to be the only ones, who didn’t end up killer each other, to form a new county.
I was driving to my office in Providence, listening to talk radio. The host was interviewing Buddy Cianci, the flamboyant mayor, when the first plane hit. The host said he was going to break away to cover the story. Cianci was p!ssed.
My best friend had an office in the South Tower. When the North Tower was hit, Morgan Stanley’s chief of security Rick Rescorla (known as “The Man Who Predicted 9/11” — watch the program if it’s on this week) ordered his fellow employees to evacuate. Fifteen minutes later, building security gave the all-clear and told everybody to go back to work. Rescorla countermanded that order. There’s no telling how many lives he saved.
My friend was not in the Tower that day, which I didn’t know for a couple of days.
Nineteen years later and we’re electing savages to public office in America. What a nation of idiots we’ve become!
I woke up to the TV being on which I thought was strange because my parents never had a TV on during the day. At first I figured it had to be a radio.
Walked into the living room to see both my parents standing there watching the TV. WTF? I looked over and saw the second plane hit but the other tower on fire in the background didn’t really register with me as being independent of what I’d just seen. So I asked why my parents were watching an aviation accident.
In her typical understated and almost alarmingly calm manner my mom points to the TV and says “That was the second one”.
Strangely, that morning it was the adults in my high school that were panicked, not the kids. While the teachers and administrators talked about “future attacks” and if they might be in our area the students were calm. And very quietly upperclassmen started circulating the where the local recruiting stations were for the various branches.
The damn strangest of high school I’d had. Stranger than Columbine. Yet somehow also one of those days where the students managed to hold it together better than I’d have expected. Kind of a grim emotional trip but still oddly cerebral in my neck of the woods.
Were the kids still a bit numbed by the Columbine attack a year and a half or so earlier?
I don’t pretend to possess the ability to read minds but I would say “No” to this question as a general rule.
One of the things that ya’ll older people don’t seem to get about Millennials is that we are not a monolithic generation. At all. There are some large divides within the generation that are mostly based on time but secondarily on parents in terms of age/style. In this case the one that matters is time.
Millennials run from 24-39 years of age at this point and those of us in the upper part of this range don’t really understand the ones in the lower ranges. The differences become more marked as the age brackets get farther apart.
Columbine was the second semester of my freshman year in HS. Over the summer many state legislatures changed the laws surrounding certain portions of schooling enormously. Where I grew up, my sophomore year we had constant daily announcements as hunting seasons approached reminding us that bringing a firearm to school was now a serious crime. This was done because the people who had been sophomores and juniors the previous year were used to the culture of bringing a gun to school to hunt after school.
As time went on the rules became more rigid and the punishments for even minor infractions became more draconian. For example, those who liked to wear a chain wallet were suddenly told that the chain constituted a weapon and could no longer be worn. Many chaffed at this, pointed out the potential lethality of a sharpened pencil or the strangulation tool found in a power or even mouse cord.
This sort of resistance continued until I graduated HS in 2002 simply because those of us in that age group had grown up with a set of freedoms that had been stripped from us and which not a single one of us had actually done anything with in terms of “abusing” them. The two fuckers that did were dead. Why are we being punished? The kids who were in the upper bracket for Middle School knew these freedoms too and similarly resented the loss of these freedoms. (By this point encompassing dress codes, speech and other behaviors.)
But the kids who were too young to have ever known them? They got to HS and they were compliant. They never knew about being allowed to wear a chain wallet, tell an off-color joke about violence, wear a T-shirt with an image of gun or a weasel smoking a cigarette on it. IMHO, that divide is right around the 31/32 age bracket today. Perhaps a bit younger or older depending on location.
At the same time the younger kids didn’t just lose those freedoms and not know it the grade schools also altered their curriculum to prevent any, uh, agitation when the boys got a shot of testosterone later in life. So, for example, my cousin who’s also a Millennial will tell you a story you’ve never heard before about Little Red Riding Hood. One where there is ZERO violence. No mention of large teeth or eyes either. Everything is resolved by a Woodsman talking to a wolf about how the wolf is a bully.
And if you bother to check a library you will find that *new* story in the books there. My best friend and I were stunned by this and further stunned when the Librarian offered to show us the “bad books” that they still had but would only produce upon *special* request. (And no, not porn or even Aeon Flux comics. I mean the originals of all those “unacceptably violent children’s tales”.)
The result of this is that as you go further down the age scale of Millennials you get more and more snowflakery and you find that the people in the older age brackets have less and less in common with those in the younger brackets who really have more in common with the Zoomers than they do with people like myself.
“One of the things that ya’ll older people don’t seem to get about Millennials is that we are not a monolithic generation.”
I don’t *think* I’ve ever pidgin-holed you but I apologize if I had.
It was a simple question based on your experience at the time of being in close proximity to a mass criminal event.
*Technically* I’m a ‘Boomer’ but I have no similarities what one would call a ”Boomer’. In every way I identify as being ‘Gex X’ in culture and identity.
So that makes you and I alike in generational identity… misconceptions?
So I apologize if you were offended by a simple question of your personal experience of the environment you were in at the time…
In no way am I offended and, no, you’ve never attempted or inadvertently pigeonholed me. Really, I don’t get offended. It’s not a response I’m familiar with other than on an academic level.
This was a good place to point out a general issue. Hence my use of the general term “ya’ll older people”.
And the short answer to your original question is “No, I don’t think the kids were “numbed” by Columbine on 9/11″ but that probably can’t be well understood without an explanation of the reason which is that they are in many ways fundamentally different in mindset than the kids who came not too many years after.
And interestingly that change was brought about indirectly by Columbine when the school system had it’s own little version the The Patriot Act in response to the shooting.
Boomers aren’t a monolith either.
I never said they were.
Something that should of not happened in America!
Why didn’t the people fight back against unarmed sissies?
Those readily identifiable people have been killing innocents for centuries!
Strange the things that move you. For me, here on Long Island, it was the cars left at train stations for days after, waiting for people who would never return.
That bothered my family members in NJ as well.
I was doing apparatus checks at my FD when out the going shift told me someone had flown into one of the towers. Blew it off as an accident. Within hours, we knew we had a bigger problem, within days my dear Wife’s aircraft carrier was being deployed. #NeverForget #NeverForgive
I was at my Apartment. I worked evenings so I had not left for work yet. A woman I knew called me and asked if I was watching the tv. I turned it on to the towers being hit and then falling. I went on to work but I nearly had the freeway to myself. I live in the bay area of ca. One of the busiest air spaces in the world. The absolute lack of air traffic was creepy. For two weeks the freeways were nearly empty.
I also remember JFK, RFK and MLK. We sure have lived in interesting times. I wish it would get boring someday.
I was driving on I-25 north of Albuquerque, heading to Los Alamos National Labs to deliver a large construction forklift. I had heard a brief news story, at the top of the hour, about a small aircraft hitting one of the towers. I switched to an all-news radio station and listened to a reporterette giving a live, on-the-scene report about the first tower. She suddenly screamed and said that another jet had just flown into the other tower, what is going on. I radioed my dispatcher and told him to turn on the TV in the lunch room right now, that America might be at war.
Dispatch called me 30 minutes later and said to turn around, the Labs were closed until further notice.
i learned everything i need to know about islam on 911
I was in boot camp when the USS Cole was struck by a small boat suicide bomber.
A year later on 9/11 I was just finishing up my naval electronics school in Virginia, the base was locked down immediately and all classes were cancelled.
By December I had boarded my ship (who had been on their way to the Bahamas when they did a 180) and we were east bound across the Atlantic.
Saw it live. Getting the boy’s ready foh wellor school. Surrealistic. I couldn’t believe my eye’s. I also couldn’t comprehend WHY W & the other idiot’s were so hellbent on conquering Iraq. Or spending 19 years in Afghanistan. Or turning America into a police state. All to feel “safe”…oh well😳
First off — Respect for all that serve, whether it be Red, Blue, or Green
1- A retired foreman told me that the City Fire Commissioner rejected the building plans for the Towers..so he was replaced with someone that would sign off on them..
2- There was a previous ‘attack’ in the garage of the Towers a few years before, one would think security would stay beefed up..
3- The new radios that the Fire Department used were known to be defective..
4- Workers, (mostly construction), responded to help dig three days before the mayor shown up..
5- The city ordered the recovery over when the ‘yellow bricks’ were found..
6- Volunteers continued to dig until the last known survivors, (two Port Authority Officers), were saved..
7- The government lied about air quality in the weeks after the attack..
There is more, but I try not to think about it………..
3-
“4- Workers, (mostly construction), responded to help dig three days before the mayor shown up..”
Wrong. They showed up that day to help find the ‘fireman down’ sirens screaming in the smoking rubble…
True,,,thanks for the help—memory is slipping——remembered another rumors(?)——-when one of the terrorist
pilots was taking his training to flight the large craft, after being told the next lesson would be on landing—–his reply to the instruct was “I do not need to know that”. I do not know if this is true, but knowing that the above mentioned number two is true, and the old saying “Money talks”, it was probably just put off as a joke..
Are we celebrating “Patriots Day”? Or that we are living through the time of two more epic lies perpetrated on the american people: 9/11 and the “plandemic”. Apparently we haven’t learned our lesson, and here we are.
Other government lies: JFK wasnt by the mob and elements of our government. Gulf of Tonkin wasnt a false flag. The Lusitania wasn’t a false flag.
WRONG!
The MOON is the false flag here and all those events you listed were caused by the HOLLOW MOON and the HOLLOW EARTH moon nazi alien alliance.
Iraq war was started over control of a STARGATE in the ruins of Babylon.
All the religions around the world over the entirety of humanity had believers just like you that trusted with all their heart that they belong to the ONE TRUE religion. You know that all the rest of them were wrong. Odds are so are you. There is a reason you call yourselves and your fellow followers a flock.
Another American tragedy courtesy of Mossad.
🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕 🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕 🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕Allah, mor ham Ed, and all muslims!
… so I got me a pen and some paper, and I made up my own little sign ; it said “Thank you Lord , for thinkin’ ‘ bout me – I’m alive , and doing fine ! “….. signs, signs , everywhere a sign