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Liberty Ammunition's new Civil Defense line (courtesy

Ammo supplies have eased in my neck of the woods. But then Lone Star State gun owners stocked up before the post-Newtown surge. And anti-government paranoia is endemic, not epidemic. As more rounds come ’round to gun stores, there’s more variety, too. That’s because the ammo drought raised prices and created market opportunities for new products (“I don’t care what it is, I’ll take a box”). So it’s no surprise that lead-free ammo specialists Liberty Ammunition are launching a new line. What is surprising: the company’s presser proclaims that Civil Defense is lighter, less snappy and faster than all its competitors. And it offers twice the “effective range” of its competitors. [Click here to buy. Press release after the jump.] What’s not to love? TTAG ammo tester ShootingtheBull410’s on the case . . .

BRADENTON, FL – Liberty Ammunition, global leader in high performance, lead-free ammunition for military and law enforcement markets, announces the Civil Defense line of superior personal defense ammunition for civilians and law enforcement personnel. Available in 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and .380 Auto, Liberty’s high-performance ammunition has twice the effective range of standard ammo, provides up to 16% less felt recoil and considerably less weight in loaded magazines.

Liberty Ammunition Civil Defense 9mm rounds

Liberty Ammunition Civil Defense 9mm rounds

In testing the 9mm and .40 S&W ammo at Liberty’s home range, the Civil Defense rounds traveled at velocities greater than 2,000 fps and over 1900 fps for the Civil Defense .45 ACP round. These velocities are nearly double that of any other standard ammo. The Civil Defense lead-free rounds are made from nickel-plated copper with a nickel-plated brass cartridge case. Every round exceeds match-grade quality in performance.

Liberty’ hollow-point fragmenting Civil Defense rounds also provide three times the terminal effects of traditional ammo in comparable calibers. Due to the patented, proprietary make-up of the Civil Defense rounds and the lead-free component, Civil Defense ammo is lighter in weight. For example, a law officer carrying three fully loaded magazines on his belt will notice a significant weight reduction of up to a pound.

“Liberty Ammunition was originally developed for the battlefield. That same mindset of superior performance, coupled with our advanced ammunition technologies is now available to consumers and law enforcement,” Steven Torma, President and CEO of Liberty Ammunition commented. “Faster, more powerful and lighter in weight; the Civil Defense line of ammunition is the obvious choice for personal and civic protection.”

Civil Defense Ammunition Specifications:

                                             9mm                     .40 S&W                              .45 ACP                .380 Auto

Description:                      Copper, Monolithic, Hollow-Point Fragmenting Personal Defense Round

Weight:                                50 gr.                    60 gr.                                      78 gr.                    50 gr.

Velocity:                              >2,000 fps           >2,000 fps                          >1,900 fps            >1,500 fps

Kinetic Energy:                >450 FPE              >500 FPE                           >600 FPE              >250 FPE

Accuracy:                            <2” @ 50 m         <2” @ 50 m                        <2” @ 50 m         <2” @ 50 m

Terminal Effect:                 > 3.5” W x 12” D  > 3.5” W x 12” D            > 3.5” W x 12” D  >2.5” W x 12” D

MSRP (20 rd box):             $25.99                  $28.99                               $29.99                  $25.49

For more information on Liberty Ammunition visit

About Liberty Ammunition:

Founded shortly after the 9/11 attacks, Liberty Ammunition’s sole pursuit has been to develop the world’s highest performing ammunition. The company provides state-of-the-art tactical ammunition to the US military, our allies and law enforcement. In 2013, Liberty Ammunition entered the civilian market with the highest performing ammunition in the world for superior personal protection and to enhance the game hunting experience. Today, Liberty Ammunition is the global leader in high performance, lead-free ammunition for military, law enforcement and the civilian and hunting markets.


Unauthorized edit by Jeremy S. (sorry, RF):

I shot this ammo through that ridiculous 3-foot ‘barrel’ (not rifled and about 10mm inside diameter) extension on the end of my P-09, and got some fairly extreme velocities out of it! No, I would personally never carry this as a defensive load as it is incapable of meeting minimum penetration depths according to all of the testing I have seen.

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    • Try it or see the test results.
      Ive been using it as my carry ammo for a while. More or less since it came out as Halo.
      No gimmick here. You will change your mind.
      Go to their web site and catch a demo or 2 then get some.

      • I bought 6 boxes of this at my LGS because he marked it way, way down about a month ago. I played with them a lot. Average of 1750 out of my sig 290. Shot boxes of wet paper, my 55 gallon hollow point water trap, sand, mud, modeling clay, and wood. My gun loved shooting them and they are very accurate, but the damage was always the same no matter what I shot with them: a very nasty, very shallow wound full of little bits of silver. The only thing I got more than 4 inches of penitration on was water. I plinked the last box away and went back to carrying critical duty.

      • Jay,

        Exotic ammo almost universally sucks, and this overpriced garbage is no exception. I would ask that you don’t advise people to carry such things to protect their lives and those of their loved ones. However, that is your 1st Amendment right. I don’t consider a shallow 4″ cavity through 4 layers of denim followed by a 28 grain particle to 11″ of penetration to be satisfactory performance. Further, the dubious claim that you have “doubled the effective range” of real-world performance ammo such as Federal HST, Winchester PDX, Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Sabre, etc. is a thing of mystery to me. I’m very curious as to what evidence you have that actually supports that claim.

        I wouldn’t advise you to carry such pretty and ineffective rounds to protect your own life, but that is your choice to do so.

        • This is in response to you Accur81.
          I normally carry in all my EDC guns Winchester Ranger or PDX1 when anywhere other then my store or my home., Both those rounds have indeed passed all the FBI standards exceeded some.
          As I don’t ever plain on firing into auto glass as a rule when in my store.
          My expectation is to use a personal defense round at contact distances only.
          In other words hopefully if I must use my gun it will be at no more then a few feet.
          While in my store. I have no desire to use a round that will go through and through. I have no desire to endanger anyone else in the vicinity of my store as in a miss traveling into a car in the parking lot or worse a person walking near by.
          For years I carried Glaser Blue while in my store and at home for the same reason, no over penetration. But alot of wound damages.
          The only result Im after is to inflict as much physical damage to my intended target and as little collateral damage as possible.
          The same goes for when Im home. I do home carry too.
          I load up the Liberty and put the Winchester away.

          I feel Liberty will more then likely achieve the results I want when indoors.

          To the other guy.
          I don’t work for Liberty or have anything to do with it other then its use.

          Before I leave and close up. The mag of Liberty comes out,
          The gun is recharged with Winchester in all other cases all the time..
          In my mind realistically. Im only going to fire at an extremely short distance indoors.
          This round for my intended thought pattern fits my bill.
          By the way where did I say it doubles anything?? Let alone its effective range?? Blah Blah.

          What I use indoors while in my store vs out in the real world is very different and I guess I should have made that point clear.
          At contact distances, living and working in sub tropical Florida with NO heavy clothing being worn.
          Deep penetration through clothing isn’t an issue here.
          So I hope this more then clears up why I like Liberty so much.

        • Also why do you want “double the effective range”? I don’t know what the “effective range” of “standard ammo” is but I am sure that even those so obviously deeply inferior rounds have far more effective range than you could ever take advantage of with a concealed carry pistol, much less a self defense situation, so why do I want to double it?

        • I just saw the vid you recommended.
          Ill admit its not impressive.
          I don’t know if it matters, but I carry the 40 or 45 round.
          380 Ranger if I must,
          Ive never had a reason to own a 9mm.
          Except maybe to replace my P238 with a P938 because I can some day.
          For indoors in my store, with a very busy parking lot.
          With only plate glass windows between my register and a bunch of people milling around the vicinity,
          This is exactly what I want in an indoor situation,
          A round that wont over penetrate and should make a slight mess where it happens to hit.
          My intention is to make the aggressor think twice about continuing his/her activity,
          A nice double tap should be more then sufficient.
          I fire my hand guns the way I intend to use them.
          Combat only, no target shooting for me.
          Double tap and assess.
          For the safety of others around me.
          I feel this ammo will fill the bill.
          I hope I never have to find out if it will or not.
          I have no intention of using full weight and power combat loads while in my store.
          I carry PDX1 or bonded Ranger, which are basically the same, otherwise, but not when in my store or at home.

      • If you want flatter shooting pistol ammo, there are good choices that don’t go deep into the untested areas. Cor-Bon 90gr 9mm+P is one good example. Even so, these make more sense for pistol caliber carbines (where that flatter trajectory can actually be put to good use), and little in handguns.

      • I guess all you “gimmick round guys” won’t mind if I shoot you with my Beretta 96 loaded with Liberty Ammunition .40S&W?

        I would check out some ballistics tests from the .40 on YouTube if you doubt it’s effectiveness. You get 12-inches of penetration with the center disk and utter destruction for about 4-6 inches at the wound entrance. And the shock from such of a velocity round is nothing to shake your head at. I Chrony’ed the .40S&W rounds from the 5-inch barrel in my Beretta 96 going at over 2200 feet per second.

        This is amazing ammo. You naysayers can’t keep our lead rounds and I’m sure you’ll be satisfied–just as satisfied as I am with Liberty. And scoff if you want, but a 60-grain bullet going over 2200 fps provides a massing amount of foot-pound energy. Compare the energy of the Liberty to your favorite lead ammo.

        I recently bought some Liberty .380ACP ammo, which i’m not convinced yet is as effective, but I’m going to give it a try.

        • Well said MR_22, my sentiments exactly. BTW my department went to FN P90 as it’s entry gun because the 9mm 124grains were overpenetrating in practice and drills. There is a lot to be said about a supersonic round that is frangible for not only incapacitating a suspect but in also not putting the public at greater risk. I am switching from another frangible round to Liberty myself.

          • Tim you ignored what I said about the muzzle flash. Out of dozens of rounds it is by far the worst, blinding. As far as the stupid “would you want to get shot with it” argument I’ll say this. Not being a meth head violent criminal I don’t WANT to get shot with anything, not even a pellet gun. What you should be asking is “what would you rather be shot with”? If you were to ask that question I would certainly tell you I’d choose to be shot with liberty ammo vs. a fed HST or gold dot any day.

    • Light yes but its some good accurate stuff.
      Ive tested it in wet books, NASTY only word to describe it.

  1. Ive been carrying this ammo since it came out and was called Halo.
    Ive found it to be very accurate.
    Might be a tad short on the over all penetration, but those first 5 or 6 inches……….NASTY.
    I would not want to be on its receiving end at all.
    Good stuff not too harsh for +P in my 40S&W Hi-Power or RIA Compact 45acp.
    When I find some in 380 acp which Ive never seen or knew they made.
    Then Id have my carry trifecta…………….

  2. Finally have .380 cal. on the shelf at Academy, here in a small town west of Houston. All the slots were about full, except for .22 cal. I was buying the Mossberg 88 Maverick I have thought about for some time. Dreamed about actually, anyway, enough about my lack of a sex life. For all the talk of .380 being subpar defensive wise, it was one of the first sold out. I checked on that particular cal., there were a few “badder and better” types. Think I will stick with the Fed hydra-shok 90 gr. for now, the Bersa loves them. Good to see variety of choice in any case. Owning a firearm is like a lot of other things, it ain’t what you got, it is what you do with it.

    • Please read my explanation to Accur81 as to why I use this stuff.
      It suits my needs.
      That alone is reason enough.

        • Since when are ER doctors the last word on performance of handgun ammunition? Face the facts Junior! Go directly to the Pathologist, the Coroner! If the victim made it to the ER the round DID NOT do it’s Job! There are far too many “er docs” that think they are the experts, they are not. They are stop gap MDs who only keep the patient ALIVE until REAL trauma surgeons show up. But again, they too, are not any good IF the ammo works properly, because there will NOT be a patient, only a deceased non breather.

  3. Something went south, too lazy to type it all over.

    Edit by Jeremy S. — your comment is above. Pretty sure the spam filter snagged it for some juicy key words in there…

      • Tnoutdoors9 with ballistics gel.

        Yeah, better aim for the belly, because that looks like it’ll bounce right off the rib cage or skull. Probably hurt like hell, but other than some fancy numbers, this seems inferior in every way to run of the mill JHPs.

        Also, after seeing the original “Halo” box art, how in the hell did they think they wouldn’t have Microsoft all over them? Even copied the damn font from Halo.

        Edit: This was supposed to be separate, but oh well.

        • My point exactly. Once again, exotic ammo doesn’t live up to the hype – although the Lehigh 45 copper round seems to be an exception, but it’s way too long for a normal .45 Colt revolver.

  4. ok, well, those rounds are pretty light, a little less than half ordinary rounds. Call me skeptical until I see the ballistic gel tests. Sure, on paper halving the weight and increasing the speed will increase the FPE. But I suspect that these bullets will heavily fragment and not penetrate very deep. They may indeed be very nasty, but birdshot is very nasty too, and i would not trust it with my life. I want to see some tests.

    • Now I am playing salesman the vid of gel testing on Libertys web site is what got me interested in its use.

  5. There are plenty of YouTube videos testing this ammo using it’s former name HALO; TNOutdoors9 has a good vid on this ammo. It performs very different than lead core ammo. The greatest wound channel occurs only 3 – 4 inches, while the base continues to travel another 10 – 12 inches. Many will argue this is poor penetration and shouldn’t be depended on for self defense. Others will say the frangibles cause quite a bit of damage, and have a much greater terminal effect.

    Given the cost of the ammo, and the controversy surrounding its effectiveness, I’ll stick with lead core ammo. I’ll let others prove this before I begin to trust my life with it. I haven’t heard any real world experiences with this ammo.

    • the human heart/aorta/pulmonary artery (center of mass organs) is LESS than 3 inches into the body… People NEED to learn human anatomy, to understand defensive ammo needs, just like hunters need to learn the anatomy of the game they take…

  6. There is a YouTuber by the name of tn9outdoors that did a review of the Liberty ammunition.

    Was not impressed, and neither was he. I think I’ll pass, and keep carrying my 180-grain Ranger Talons.

  7. I love the low recoil part, never heard anyone claim a particular ammo doesn’t recoil hard enough, but I don’t like the low penetration aspect.

    Only use ammo that meets FBI or IWBA protocols is my go-to philosophy, at least until something better is substantiated.

    I have to admit though, I’m very impressed, technologically speaking.

    • I should mention that when I was firing it (not in the crazy barrel, but in a factory 9mm gun), the brass was barely plopping out. It never did have a failure to function but it was not ejecting as it should. Although loaded quite hot, the very low mass of the bullet absolutely affected the force with which the slide cycled rearwards. All the brass was right on my feet. In my opinion, it was just *barely* cycling the slide enough to eject the empty and strip off a new round, and any reduction in power at all, even just a tiny bit, would have caused a stoppage. OR, if my gun was dirty or I accidently rode the slide a little bit with a thumb or for some other reason the slide was just a little harder to cycle than usual (and I was firing a clean, lubed gun), I would expect stoppages.

      Also, to be completely frank, I’m not sure what there is to be impressed with technologically. They have used copper and a REALLY deep hollow point cavity to reduce the mass of the bullet to 50 grains, and then loaded it up. Lighter bullet = faster bullet. Heavier bullet = slower bullet. You can only build so much pressure inside of the chamber/barrel safely, and with the pressure being the same it’s just simple physics. The only way this wouldn’t be the fastest ammo available is if they reduced the powder load for some reason or if there was a lighter ammo option on the market.

  8. Stuff like this has been around for years in one form or another. Glaser, RBCD, etc. Ultra light projectiles at hyper velocity. As a ammo geek it’s kind of interesting but as a practical matter I’m sticking to my Gold Dots.

    • Similar to the Mexican Aquilla rounds of a few years ago. They were advertised as having excellent penetraton against steel. I have some boxes, never tested them

    • The only interesting round I’ve ever seen along these lines is the 9mm Fiocchi Expansion Mono-Block (EMB).

      It is a 92 grain pill made from bronze and copper alloy moving at 1300fps and delivering 350 ft lbs of energy. Decent penetration and radical expansion.

      • FYI bronze is a copper alloy. It is made up mostly of copper with [usually] a little tin in it. Like 88% copper and 12% tin would be considered your standard bronze. That’s my annoying jacka$$ comment of the day.

        • Heh, yeah that is how they describe it. I know bronze has copper in it of course. I think the bullet is more like solid copper on the inside and bronze on the outside. The bullet appears brownish, with a brighter copper color visible inside the hollow point.

    • In the late ’70s the USAF had me carrying a 5-shot .38 snubby revolver on the airplane, and the first 2 rounds were red plastic bullets, must have been something like 10-20 grains, supposedly about a zillion fps, effective range in the 5 foot area, but their tests showed a very unpleasant result within 5 feet. The following 3 were JHP, of course. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

      Just for fun, let me mention that our training was with S&W 4″ revolvers with 6 rounds, and this was a Colt with 5. Who gets the joke?

      OK, for the rest of you, the cylinders rotate in opposite directions between Colt and S&W, normally WGAS but we are supposed to be loading the thing with different ammo for first vs last shot. I’d bet that at least half the men carrying did not know enough about firearms in general to know the difference, carried loaded so the firing order would be JHP, JHP, plastic, plastic, JHP (ie loaded correctly for a 5-shot S&W). We got absolutely zero training for the 5-shot Colt, if you can imagine. And I never did shoot one of those plastic bullets, have no idea what it would have been like.

  9. While the light weight projectile going at a high rate of speed works well in long, skinny rifle rounds prone to tumble and fragment, it leaves something to be desired when using a short, wide projectile designed to expand. I’m sure one could find a way to launch a plastic overcoat button at 10,000fps, but that doesn’t make it a good choice for self defense.

    • “While the light weight projectile going at a high rate of speed works well in long, skinny rifle rounds prone to tumble and fragment…”
      The former are the words of someone with no clue as to the fact that the longer and narrower a projectile is the more stable and less likely it is to tumble. It is truly sad how few people here really understand ballistics and that these rounds are not based on ballistic performance, rather they are designed entirely around TERMINAL ballistic performance of extremely light rounds. The two do not ALWAYS go hand in hand, if they did Bullet Design would be simple.

  10. This was (for quite some time) and is known to be an inferior loading to virtually anything else you could feed a gun for defense. The idea isn’t only not new, it hasn’t improved over several iterations. Don’t shoot novelty loads for personal defense. Bullet weight matters!

  11. Similar to the Mexican Aquilla rounds of a few years ago. They were advertised as having excellent penetraton against steel. I have some boxes, never tested them

  12. Ya, the moment I read that it was 1/2 the weight, I knew it was a gimmick. You can’t cut the mass of an object in half and expect it to retain the same ballistic performance. It is basic physics guys.

    There really needs to be a blacklist of these type of manufactures. They don’t actually care about the performance of their product, aka their capability to save lives, just the amount of exorbitant profit they can rake in from those of the lower critical thinking sector.

  13. i like normal rounds that are proven over a longer period. hornady 9mm critical defense and speer gold dot 38+p are the way to go. also i don’t think that it would sound good in court if you used some exotic round that goes 2,000 fps.

  14. I would not buy from them because their entire line of ammo is not available to the general public. Sort of like firearms that only LEO’s can buy !

  15. I still can’t find ANY .357 besides the one box of 100 HPs I got (luckily) to use with my recently bought Ruger Speed Six.

    Shelves are piled high with 9mm, .40 and .45, but absolutely no .357 or .380. Sucks.

  16. I have a bit of mixed feelings about this rounds. For one, I have tried them on my PPQ and they cycled smoothly and with lower recoil than any other of the rounds I have tried. Having said that, that Walther eats anything I feed her so YMMV. On the other hand, their press releases and website don’t do them any favors as they want
    to market themselves a bit too hard to the “high speed-low drag” craptactular crowd. The reason why I carry them is because they allow me to be more accurate with follow up shots. My double taps are much tighter with them. I have seem the videos out there and indeed, they are low penetration. But I wouldn’t want to be shot with this ammo regardless of what the AI verdict might be.

    • and, what ammo WOULD you want to be shot with??

      Exactly. buying ammo because “I wouldn’t want to be shot with this ammo” is really no standard at all, because there is no ammo i’d want to be shot with. This is however a lot of ammo that if i were shot with it I could survive to put quite a few in the bad guy. This has 4 ” of penetration in ballistic gel, barely. I am thinking once you add ribs, clothes, and such, its barely better than #6 bird shot.

  17. I’m very late to the party, and it’s probably all been said already, but 9mm that performs almost as well as .22 Hornet in terms of energy is probably the solution to very few problems. Jay in FL has found a solution in them. One of the best discussions on pistol calibers / ammo choices, etc. is from, and worth your 5 minutes to read:

    • Really, you’re not impressed? I’m shocked (sarcasm). I guess the National Tactical Officers Association must be part of a conspiracy to get all of their member officers to shoot inferior ammo, maybe they are investors in the company, who knows.

      Below is link too a much more relevant and detailed test.

      • OK, Been in law enforcement 20 yrs, NRA Instructor, etc., etc. Will someone tell me what was the point of a long barrel attached to a semi-auto and then raving about the speed?? Can someone also tell me what all those two and three letter notations were on that 16m + video? By the way, no sound, in case you are wondering which video. Don’t really know what this hype is about, but snake oil comes to mind unless I see some honest demos without three feet barrels and a Rosetta Stone for all those letters showing some kind of performance factors… just saying.

  18. As a 40 Plus year veteran of Law Enforcement, I have seen lots of ammo come and go. Super Vel HP, Black Talon, KTW, all touted as the Super Duper good stuff that we needed . While Liberty looks good in some tests and on paper try selling that to Law Enforcement at $1.15 cents per round? Remember we have to qualify with what we carry. My Glock 17 with two extra mags is 58 rounds of ammo or $60+ to fill my magazines and that’s not to say anything about practice and qualifications. I don’t see this ammo as any better than Gold Dot, Critical Defense, or the new Winchester PDX. The best bullet in the world in not effective unless you hit the vital area of you adversary. That means practice and that means shooting alot. The best bullet in the world won’t make up for pour marksmanship.

  19. Today, 03/13/14, I observed the 9mm Liberty round stopped cold at 7 feet by a Point Blank Alpha Elite level II vest. That same round went completely through as a contact shot, less than 1 inch. The bullet filled with ballistic fibers and did not expand.

  20. I wish people would understand physics, especially considering that they tout such a claim to knowledge in it.

    This round would be nasty with a capitol N. For those espousing penetration… who cares? I mean, really, who cares? This thing releases almost 500 fpe within the first six inches. What that equates to, from a physics standpoint, is a hole big enough to stick your fist into as soon as it strikes a rib. Bone fragments would slam into the cavity behind like birdshot from a twelve guage. That equals dead, no matter how you look at it, even with semi-terrible shot placement.

    Who cares about penetration?

    You need penetration when you are leaving a clean hole, as you have to hit a vital organ to do the necessary damage.

    Now, for the physics of a high velocity/light-weight slug concept? A meteorite smaller the size of a grain of sand can punch through the hull of the space shuttle when moving at 28 Kps. Penetration has always been a matter of material composition, mass, and velocity. If the slugs were saboted steel at the same weight and speed, they would penetrate deeper than the biggest monster leads slugs in the same caliber.

    Would you prefer the penetration of a .223 or a 22-250? Remember, both have bullets in the fifty grain range.

    These slugs do not penetrate, because they were designed not to penetrate. If the bullets in the cartridges were made of solid copper or solid bronze, these light slugs would still out-penetrate your best factory lead loads with the same fpe, as they would give up their energy slower due to the fact that they are harder than lead.

    That is physics. Now, the effective range is the distance that you can engage a target without having to hold too many inches over said target to be accurate at distance, yet still retain enough bullet energy to do the job. It is a matter of ballistics. A lighter bullet travelling at a higher velocity has a much flatter arc. Therefore, it might be realistic to engage and hit a target at a hundred yards instead of only twenty-five to fifty. The velocity gives you an effective range usually reserved more for rifles than for handguns.

    • “Therefore, it might be realistic to engage and hit a target at a hundred yards instead of only twenty-five to fifty. The velocity gives you an effective range usually reserved more for rifles than for handguns”

      Apparently you don’t understand physics much either. Light bullets shed energy like crazy and become much less effective as the range increases. There’s a good reason why I load 87gr. V-Maxes @ 3,200 fps in my .243 for the really long shots instead of those little 58 grainers screaming out at 3,900 fps.

      Put a wiffle ball on the round and give it a good push. Now give a baseball the same good push and see which one carries momentum and energy further.

      • I do understand the physics of momentum, and the concept of coefficient of drag as well. It is the air drag which slows a bullet in flight, just as the rolling resistance against the ground concerning your wiffle ball example. A larger mass at the same velocity has greater energy. However, a lighter mass at a much higher velocity can exceed the energy or the higher mass. How fast either mass sheds this energy over distance depends upon it’s ballistic coefficient (ratio of air drag, or it’s resistance from air pulling at it as it flies).

        However, in your .243 example we have apples to oranges. Handgun loads at low velocities have a trajectory more like a football. Sure, a higher mass bullet will retain energy longer at the same velocity. But tell me, how easy is it to estimate vertical distance at 100 yards without a scope? The answer is not that easy, especially the larger the estimate that must be made. Considering that the open sights on a handgun are much closer together than those on a rifle, and it allows even more of a margin of error.

        I will show the ballistics of a 115gr Hornady XPS Critical Defense cartridge, figured with sights .8 inch above center of bore, and the sights zeroed at 25 yards.

        Range-yds / drop-in / energy-fpe
        muzzle / -.8 / 332
        25 / 0 / 297
        50 / -1.1 / 270
        75 / -4.2 / 249
        100 / -9.6 / 231
        125 / -17.3 / 216
        150 / -27.7 / 203

        Now, for the 9mm round above.

        Range-yds / drop-in / energy-fpe
        muzzle / -.8 / 444
        25 / 0 / 382
        50 / .2 / 327
        75 / -.4 / 280
        100 / -1.9 / 239
        125 / -4.3 / 205
        150 / -8 / 176

        Now, notice that at 100 yards, the lighter bullet still has more energy than the heavier bullet. Momentum = mass X velocity (p=mv), for those who don’t know. A smaller grain bullet can have more momentum than a larger grain bullet, if the velocity is great enough, as in the example above. AT 100 yards, the lighter bullet still hits harder than the heavier bullet.

        HOWEVER, the ability to hit an object at distance comes into play. For an average shot using the 115gr hornady ammo, they need to limit their attempt to 50-75 yards. Using the Liberty ammo, they could realistically attempt 100-125 yards with excellent energy retention in comparison to the heavier hornady bullet.

        Now, as you can see, your wiffle ball example only works if initially travelling at the same velocity.

        • You are entertaining, I’ll give you that. You’re also posting all kinds of numbers and crap to a guy that has been shooting in the field for 27 years and knows good and well what works and what doesn’t. I’ve seen these whiz-bang rounds and all the associated marketing come and go for almost three decades and there’s an awfully good reason they fade away. If the theory of 125 yard shots and busted ribs turning into birdshot does it for you then by all means load up with them things and slay dragons.

        • There are two topics in play here: ballistics physics and ballistics religion. Most of the arguments occur in the ballistics religion realm. Honestly, you guys can quote how much you know and how long you’ve been involved in this topic, but once you get into ballistics religion discussions, nobody is convincing anybody.

          There are no magic bullets and no magic guns. Everybody has what they KNOW works and often that is sufficient. After a person researches the topic as much as they can, relying upon ballistics facts and ballistics opinions, they then make a choice. Ridiculing another’s honest choices for guns and ammo just makes you look closed minded. Saying they are flat-out wrong makes you look stupid.

          There are only two important things to have when using a firearm for self defense: One, have a gun, and two, have an ammo that shoots reliably in that gun. Everything else is just the details.

          Just my opinions, of course.

      • YOU obviously dont know Physics like YOU think either. While that light round sheds energy faster than a heavy round, that loss is in percentages, so a round travelling 200% faster loses 50% of its energy in the same distance, that the heavier round loses 25%, the net result is the light round ends at 100% of the speed of the heavier round which has dropped to 75% of its speed. now plug figures in and you will find that until the lighter round drops below it’s 75% threshold, it will still be ahead of the heavier round. These are the same figures that have given the 55 grain 5.56 the edge over the 110 grain .30 US Carbine round. That 75% point is the golden threshold after which energy RAPIDLY falls on heavier rounds (180 grains and up) as well as the point where a ratio of two to one exists. Its one of those “oh Wow” truisms that has existed and people didnt realize that its the point where gravity actually starts overtaking the path of the round’s travel due to the limitations of the old style chronographs that were being used

  21. I cant stand when you have dummys not understanding what sd ammo is for (STOP THE THREAT). If you wont take one of these libertys in the chest then just shut up. Make no mistake this round will kill you just like any jhp or fmj. And to jay your a great person to care so much about stoping the bad guy and not hurting the good guys. These dummys dont understand thats what this ammo is for. When i carry i do carry this because i dont wont to hurt friendlys. At home a use ranger t’s to protect me and my wife. It’s all about picking the right round for what you might face.

  22. I have to agree with bigjeff. After practicing advanced critical trauma care as a Combat Firefighter/Paramedic for almost 20yrs I found the primary survival factors affecting any patient with a gunshot wound had less to do with the type of round, and almost everything to do with the vessels and organs that were impacted by the round or fragments. If the force is great enough (Force = Mass x Acceleration) it will cause catastrophic damage to internal structures, that being said the majority of GSW related deaths in this country are caused by the humble low velocity .22 LR. And I have personally treated several .177 and .22 cal. Pellet gun GSW patients that were critically or fatally injured. None of those pellets were head wounds and the only thing that mattered was trauma location.

    • you were going good until you brought in the .22, when you do pure numeric comparisons you are correct. HOWEVER the .22 is the MOST involved caliber in accidental shootings due to one single fact. It is owned by the largest number of STUPID PEOPLE. To this day, the .22 is still equated with a simple air gun, of which over half are nothing more than toys. And as such the .22 is treated as a “child’s gun” or a “toy”. So you ruined your own arguement.

      • Ah, another .22 bigot. So, a .22LR gun is a toy? Only stupid people own .22’s?

        You are utterly retarded if you think the lowly .22 is not lethal. And I guess you won’t mind standing out in front of our lowly .22’s toys so we can do some target practice to prove your point?

  23. Just another very impotent round not worthy of the expenditure. Save your money for ammo that doesn’t break apart on impact. This is junk trash.

  24. So, First I must say that force= mass times speed squared. As such having a lighter round go almost twice as fast equal greater knock down force. Bruce Lee proved this a thousand times over hitting much bigger guys with faster yet smaller fists.
    For the sake of killing someone with this round, why do you want the round to penetrate more than 12 inches? unless you are shooting into the gut of a morbidly obese person 12 inches will go through most people. Even in the case of an obese person 12 inches is still going to reach all the vital stuff.
    I work at a major trauma center in the south and I have seen a lot of gun shot wounds both accidental and on purpose. I want rounds in my house that will not go through walls. The 9 year old I saw shot in the head two years ago would like to agree, his brother accidentally shot through two walls with round ball 45ACP. I want a round in my house that will go in make a huge fuss very quickly and stop before leaving the baddies body. Also by leaving the bullet in the body all force is directly transferred to the body. In the deep penetration rounds a lot of the force skips the body and projects the rounds much further AKA useless and unused force.
    So, to be fair I have never shot this round, though I plan to now that I have some. If it does what the box says it does, I will carry this in my gun. My backup magazine I CCW will have heavier hydro shocks, ranger ammo, or similar.
    To all the petty girls posting insults, grow up and get a life.

  25. The stuff works, I carry 1 mag in my gun and 2 mags with FMJ, and Hydrashocks. It all depends on who or what you are shooting through.I f someone is firing at you from cover, you may require a FMJ tp penetrate a door or wall, where as if they are running around in a tee shirt the Liberty will work fine, it’s always different,

  26. I don’t get all the emphasis on penetration the average person isn’t 12″ thick so unless u live in Alaska where everybody wears layers upon layers y do u need a rd that penetrates over 6-7 inches anything more then that sounds lik over penetration to me. I’m a big guy 6’7 350 and I’m barely 12 inches thick. Might as well use fmj if u care about it penetration

  27. I tested these at night and it produced the largest fireball I’ve ever seen, much more than even cheap training crap. If a company can’t even load with low flash powder they don’t deserve your money. I have photographed 32 different muzzle flashes this far and nothing is as bad.

  28. VERY entertaining. I just bought 10 boxes because they were going for $9.99 a box. Not bad considering they sell for $25 a box at our local tiffany gun shop.

    I have many different brand and style rounds in my storage bin. I feel that each one has a specific purpose and I hope I never need to find out how well they work, but I want to be prepared if the time comes. As long as they cycle and fire they are all good and I don’t want to stand in front of any of them. I must say I bought these because they wer less than $10 and it will give me a chance to try them. I still have my lead FMJ, JHP and some custom rounds that I inherited? I enjoy the info you guys throw out there as long as it is not insulting. I feel that knowng your weapon very well and shooting lots and often is more important then what you have in it. I know people who bought guns just because and never fired them once. I helped to train a few friends on operation and I am amazed and worried about who owns and carries out there. Common sense is not that common and it is the first requirement before your put the first round in the chamber. Self protection is my number one. it is coming from you can’t decide the right ammo for the unknown instance. Train and be prepared.

    I can always pass mine on if I feel they are not needed by me and at the price I paid I should have no problem moving them.

    Carry on

  29. There are so very many dogmatic believers in the “traditional” cartridges, just as there are those who live, ride and grunt about the merits of the H-D motorcycle…solely because the latter love the loud, throaty pipes and the image of a fat back tire and the cache of burping out of the 7-11 on your Harley. It doesn’t matter that there are much better engineered motorcycles available…no… they will still stick to the old canard of a tired, expensive, poorly maneuvering, over-weight, butt-grinding, noise generator. And the similarities of this mindset continue…

    Frankly, many who wag their tongues here have never fired at any animal, whether human or 4-legged, and have only other people’s stories to rely upon or targets which tout their skills. Dogma doesn’t change easily, and it takes time to prove to the naysayers the value of different technologies. It has been the same way with the 5.56 round in combat, where we STILL have naysayers who grouse about getting some other calibre for the knock down power. Go ahead, pack a ma-deuce on your back, but I’ll make well-placed shots any day. And yes, I do have the bona fides…29 years military and 6 combat tours from jungle locales to desert watering holes. Accurate shot placement, and minimal risk to the innocent is the nature of urban combat…which is what we are talking about in America.

  30. I am a body armor designer and the high speed rounds like Liberty Civil defense penetrate body armor very easily. Then they leave a very nasty explosive wound behind the armor. It takes 50 layers of Kevlar LT or 40 layers of Kevlar M2 to stop this round. So if your expected target is someone wearing body armor then this is your round. If you are a police officer, then you need to wear ballistic plate. The problem is they are heavy and only protect a 10″x 12″ area. My new armor will provide full torso ballistic plate, but weight less than steel or ceramic plate, just to defeat these high speed rounds to keep our police alive.

  31. Not only is it a great self defense load, carrying a Kahr P45 full of 230 grain vs full of these 78 grain bullets makes it and the spar mag much lighted, same for the G19 with 16 of the 50 Grain CD vs even plain ball 155 grain, it feels like a different gun weight wise and ad the spare mag and its amazing at the difference.

  32. Why After All These Yeas Don’t You Make Any 44 special ????. Would Like To Know???


  34. I have read many of these comments from traditional enthusiasts regarding the FBI standard for penetration. Their standard is based on real world targets, whether they are in a vehicle or shooting from some other form of cover and the round fired having the ability to penetrate far enough in ballistics gel equal barriers it may encounter in real world scenarios and still be able to cause severe bodily harm to the perp and stop them.

    When we are talking about using a personal defense round, whether in concealed carry or home defense, our scenario is much different from what a law enforcement officer may encounter in their every day duties. We are not actively seeking out the bad guys, but rather reacting to them when they are meaning to cause us harm. Our concerns should be to incapacitate them ASAP without concern about over penetration and harming people we don’t want to harm.

    A bullet that expends all of it’s energy without over penetrating, yet causing a big damaging wound is what we need. The Liberty causes just that. This round has shown many times over that it will penetrate body armor and leave a nasty hole on the other side. So why is anyone talking about penetration? Do you honestly think a round that can penetrate body armor won’t be able to shoot through a coat and a shirt? Seriously? The traditional rounds that reach the “correct depth” of penetration in gel won’t defeat body armor so I have no idea why this subject is being argued. Yes, some scenarios of concealed carry will benefit from a round that may need to penetrate something that the bad guy is hiding behind, but at that point he is not being the same sort of threat as he is trying to hide himself. Let the police take him out at that point. If he shows himself put a big hole in him.

    I want a lightweight super-fast round that will pack a big punch, and cause a big hole. I am not going to shoot through car doors, windshields, or some other form of cover. I want to make a big fat hole in the person wanting to cause harm to my family or me and not pass through them and hit my family member on the other side. The damage from the hydro-shock in this light, fast round is huge and will enable you to stop them without hitting them right in the vital organ and be able to control the gun for quicker follow up shots if necessary.

    I use Liberty critical defense in my .40cal and would love to have some even faster rounds for a .357sig. if they were offered. Hopefully soon they will make them in this round. I would love to have some trucking along at about 2200-2400 fps in this round.

    It is important to realize what your purpose for carry is.

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