The details on the Nevada School Shooting yesterday have started to emerge. Unfortunately, the story is all too familiar. A 13-year-old showed up at school with his parent’s gun and opened fire on fellow students wounding two of them. A teacher, Michael Landsberry, who is a former Marine and served two tours in Afghanistan (but who was unarmed) attempted to intervene and was killed for his trouble. The adolescent shooter then turned the gun on himself. Unfortunately for the gun control community, this event lacked some of their favorite elements; no “assault weapon”, no children killed (yet, other than the shooter who saved the state some tax dollars by dousing his own lights) and it remains to be seen whether or not a “large capacity clip” was used . . .
The murderer (yes, let’s use the proper word here) was described as a nice, shy kid and everyone was surprised he did this. “He may have been bullied,” the conventional wisdom suggests – possibly by the the people he shot. This is neither justification nor a proper excuse. Like most kids at one point or another, when I was growing up, I got bullied once and a while. Our options for dealing with them were decidedly more pedestrian. We either fought them the old fashioned way or got our asses kicked, but no one was running around killing people. But I digress.
This sad circumstance will result in the usual actors reading from their rote scripts on how to prevent this sort of thing from happening. The real tragedy is that this sort of thing is totally preventable. The fact that this kid got his hands on a gun from his own home is simply unconscionable. Now, I know that there are plenty of 13 year olds who would never do this. We even have the occasional story of the teenager who shoots the home invader and saves his siblings. The fact is though that those types of kids are the exceptions not the rule. Teenagers as a group and male teenagers in particular are not renown for their judgement. There is a reason why auto insurance rates for 16-23 year old males are higher than for any other group and its not just because they are new drivers.
Seriously folks – what’s it going to take before we all learn to lock our damn guns up? The murderers in both this recent shooting and last year’s Newton massacre used their parent’s guns to commit their crimes. In the case of Newton, the murderer was almost 21 years old, but his mother knew he had psychological problems so she should have used better judgement keeping her guns secure. If you have the money to buy a gun, then you have the money to buy a safe to keep the gun in.
I’m not talking about one of those stupid lock boxes they sell at gun stores or one of those mini-safes the office supply stores sell. Those can be easily broken in to. My guns are stored in a real 500 lb safe that no teenager is going to crack in a hurry. If you must keep a gun handy by the bedside, then make the extra effort and put your gun in one of those quickie gun safes each night before bed, then move it back to secure storage in the morning. Yes, I know it’s a pain in the ass, but trust me, it’s a lot less trouble than it will be if your offspring (or one of his friends) gets a hold of your gun and kills someone with it.
The simple fact is that if we as gun owners can’t be responsible on our own, the state is going to legislate it for us. This is why some states have secure storage laws and others are looking at mandating firearm owner liability insurance. If the People of the Gun did a better job self-policing, we wouldn’t have the government butting in.
One of the arguments we sometimes use is that if kids don’t have access to guns, then they’ll use another method (ex: Tim McVeigh). Okay, fine, let them do that. I’d rather they not kill or hurt anyone, but if they are going to do it, then stop letting them do it with guns. These ass clowns and their careless parents are going to cost everyone their rights. If this keeps happening, we WILL see restrictions on all of us to prevent the stupid ones from being stupid. Which is impossible because you can’t fix (or legislate) stupid.
So, besides locking up the damn guns, what else have we learned (again, still)? Well, we have still more evidence that even a trained marine with combat experience without a gun is no match for an untrained 13 year old with one. If a highly trained, but unarmed marine can’t handle a kid with a pistol, what chance will some teacher with a weekend “negotiating skills” class have? The right way to have handled this problem would have been for someone with a gun to have put this mad dog down the minute he started shooting. We need to establish a precedent that pulling a gun out in proximity to our children is going to get you a dirt nap. I really don’t care what “issues” the murderer has. Pull a gun, start shooting, and you get dead. Fast. Zero f=ing tolerance.
The really sad thing here is that this is going to keep happening. And we have no one but ourselves to blame. Psycho murderers like this are not the “typical” criminal. They are not using black market guns bought on the street, they are not stealing guns from people they don’t know. They are using improperly secured guns from their own homes or those of their friends. This is generally the road map many of these sorts of things follow. Granted, Columbine was different, but it was different in a lot of ways and the handwriting was clearly on the wall long before it happened. As gun owners, we can all take a few simple steps to make it more difficult for kids to get their hands on our guns.
So, the two lessons here:
1. If we don’t take steps to keep guns out of the hands of our kids, then others will take steps to keep guns out of everyone’s hands.
2. We need people with guns protecting our kids. I don’t care how we do it, but unarmed protectors are nothing more than noisy, moving targets.
I prefer to hold my judgment until it is actually revealed how the weapon was or was not secured. I wish others would.
A marine with two tours gunned down by a kid in our own country…what a world…RIP marine.
+1!! Did the Teacher actually think he was going to 1:disarm the Student or 2:talk him down and give up?
I would have thought a combat Vet would have known better. At least he tried rather than throwing erasers at him.
An unarmed combat vet has a far greater chance of success against an armed opponent than your “average” male school teacher. Frankly I was surprised to hear it ended the way it did. But that’s the world we’ve made – “talk them down and make nicey nice”, even when the problem is an armed person (kid or not).
I don’t drink, so no worries for me.
That said, I don’t condone alcohol and firearms, unless ATF becomes a chain of stores~
Is this about record time for waving the bloody shirt?
Wow.
Even I would grieve for the victims and their families. And I’m an a$$hole.
MDA has sunk to a new low. And this is a group that some in the previous post wanted us to be civil to?
This author makes a very familiar argument. Certain people are not to be trusted with guns, and we should prevent them the ability to access them.
I wonder how old one needs to be before they can be allowed ‘access’ to a firearm? Sixteen? Eighteen and a half? Twenty-Two? Maybe just teenage males shouldn’t be able to have a gun? Parents should be responsible; point taken, but that’s about as far as this should go. Some parents, like all people, will always be irresponsible. It comes with a free society.
The problem in this story started long before the kid picked up the gun.
How about we use the new age “kids” can stay on parents insurance and call it 26. I wonder how many teenagers are killed each year (and others indirectly) for unauthorized use of motor vehicles.
***Sarcasm Warning***
this happened in my area. safes are not the solution, proper parenting and gun safety are. I had a rifle in my room as a child (15 years ago) and never caused any problems. you are blaming an object (the lack of a safe) for the problem of living people, the common element in all shootings.
Beer after shooting,not a bad idea,beer before or during shooting a bad idea.Don’t care for H&K firearms too over priced,not really any better than other leading firearms,just have that German arrogance going on about them.Be prepared and ready.Keep your powder dry.
The CT LEO haven’t released an official complete report so it is unclear whether the weapons were secure in a safe or not. Given he killed her, he had plenty of time to scheme. He destroyed computer info etc. Officially, the police aren’t certain if the 9mm came from the parents or not at this point. However, you don’t think a motivated 12 or 13 y.o. can figure things like that out even if it is secured?
Do you really think that a “motivated 12 or 13 year old” is going to be able to break into a serious gun safe with a four digit manual dial combination? Assuming that he figures out how many turns to the left and how many to the right with each iteration (which he probably could with a call to the manufacturer), you are still looking at 4 numbers each with 100 possible combinations. Granted, the safe is not so exact that you couldn’t hit one of the numbers by being within 1-2 digits on either side, but you are still in the realm of nearly 100 million possible combinations. Even assuming that your kid hits the combo half way through the run, assuming it takes about a minute to try each combo, your 12 year old will be pushing 100 by the time he brute forces it. So, no, I don’t think that any 12 year old is going to bust into my safe.
One of my safes has an EMP lock. However, there is a mechanical lock as weil. All they have to do is find the hard combination or figure out your code. Do you think you are slicker than modern technology and some of the tiny cameras? To answer your question, YES they could do it given time. Since they live there, they got time. This particular kid was apparently smart. You are assuming brute force, you are thinking the wrong direction. As far as Lanza, he killed his mom and had plenty of time.
Ever wandered around a Cabelas and watched the ads running on their safes? It is basically a primer on how to break into even a top notch safe. Get it flopped on its back and go at with a crow bar and extension tube. It may take 20 to 40 minutes, but the safe will eventually open enough to remove guns. I agree we need to be more safety conscious about storage, and near as I can tell the gun community has moved a long way in my lifetime towards that. To that end, yours was a good article and good reminder. But a safe is not a magical box o’ safety.
I didn’t realize doing the right thing was contingent on what your opponents have done first. Thanks, that really clears it up.
When, for example, Loub says above, “I’m sick of being nice to these emotion baiting f*cktrd dimwits!” that’s cool, roll with it. But then he continues, “So at this point I only want to whip it out and tell the b*tch to blow me! I’ll give the broad the action she demands!” and instantly becomes a total sh*thead.
Seriously, saying doxxing and threatening comments are wrong and the dumb@ss opinions of those who do that sh*t are not welcome here is not an 1A issue. I see it on a lot of other sites I go to: if you want to associate with us, then be a base-level decent human being like everyone else here. Because that sh*t is above and beyond flaming. I also agree with Bob above in that it doesn’t make sense to consider certain comments deletable when directed toward TTAG commenters, but ok when directed to antis. It either is ok, or it’s not.
There are female gun supporters, myself sort of included (the Dude gets me to read posts here pretty often), who don’t feel welcome in the pro-gun community when the b*tches and c*unts and sexual assault jokes start flying.
Seriously, forget about “giving ammunition to the enemy,” how about chipping away at group cohesion? Men of honor don’t want nitwits running around their ankles while trying to have a grown up conversation or God forbid representing them to the outside world. And I’m sure a pro-gun person who’s been raped, or an anti just changing their mind because of it, is just jumping at the chance to ally themselves with a douchcanoe who makes rape jokes (hint: they’re not). Cutting back on all that only strengthens the troops.
Good post.
My kids were out of the house, then due to life circumstances my daughter moved back home. With her came a treat. My granddaughter. Back went the guns into the safe.
I agree. I bought my big 500 pounder after about my third gun purchase.
“Domestic violence is a serious business even when it involves pillows and a squirt gun. And a paper bag. ”
NO IT ISN’T, because there was no violence. This was a minor domestic ARGUMENT. Maybe even a major argument, but there was no assault.
If I want to get violent, I’m not going to pick up a PILLOW, or squirt water on someone with a squirt gun. Get real.
Slow day at the cop house. No other shootings, so they make do.
I think TTAG is more than just a typical forum. It’s more of an educational website. Between the gun reviews and editorials on the current fight to protect the 2A, it is an invaluable resource. Personally I think Robert F’s last couple of articles covering the Alamo pro-gun rally, and observations about MDA, touched a nerve with them. Their natural response was to try and claim that they and they alone have the moral high-ground. It’s kind of like doing an intervention for a hoarder at their packed home, but the hoarder tries to point out that YOU are the one with the problem by evidence that you have two pens in your shirt pocket.
As for the posts, keep the posts classy and appropriate. Think if it adds to the conversation. Remember that while we may not change MDA’s mind, there might be a few 14 year olds, college students, or others new to the gun scene.
We also need to stop playing the blame game. Parents can never be 100% responsible for their kids actions. So playing the “stupid parents not locking their guns up” card seems… hypocritical? I dunno. It feels wrong. It may be accurate, but maybe it’s not. How do you actually know?
That said I’m not arguing for giving your kid a handgun and letting him loose on the world. Gun safes HAVE to be in your house if you have a gun. Anything else is negligent. And do your homework on it, too. But pretending like you know this kid and his parents and know what would have solved the problem is crap just like anyone on any other side of whatever argument you are trying to have here.
“If we don’t take steps to keep guns out of the hands of our kids,
then others will take steps to keep guns out of everyone’s hands.”
The only problem with this is that now the federal government can
(and does when it’s beneficial to them) consider anyone under
26! to be a child.
The Catholic Church says the age of reason is 7. I like to put it at
the age where a child can comprehend the meaning of death. At
that point if the child cannot handle logic and direction they are
either mentally lacking in certain areas or their parents have failed
in their duty to teach them. Sorry, but for me focusing on the use
of safes as a problem is no better than the antis blaming guns
for crime sprees.
“M-1 Carbine Assault Rifle”
…. and so it begins
Now the M-2 version could be considered and assault rifle: It is a select fire weapon using mid power cartridge.
Technically if the guy had a M2, select fire, Carbine, it would be a true “assault weapon.” I doubt the media would know the difference, and I doubt the guy was running around with a US milsurp NFA rifle.
But then the question is if .30 Carbine is a true “intermediate” cartridge like 7.62×39, .280 British, 7.62×51, or .223 😉
No .30 carbine is just a longer .30 pistol round pretty much. Bout the same ballistics back in it’s day although some say the .45 actually carried a bigger punch.
I don’t think it’s a bad idea. But I wouldn’t do it because of some straw man argument. If it were my site I’d be doing some censoring anyway, though.
But it’s not my site. So do what feels right to you.
NO!!! The A-10!?
The caviler attitude in the first half of this OVER long article to get the point is offensive…. “Turned his lights off”, “Got shot for his troubles” and “no assault weapon, no children killed” comments about dead kids and assault rifles…….Really sarcastic and not appropriate. The POINT I have been preaching for a long time LOCK YOUR DANG GUNS UP, unless you are cleaning it or using it. Even the most idiot of gun owners should get that. I have a safe…. several large and small where I keep all my guns and ammo. The article could have been 90% shorter.
That stein is available to the public at a cost of $699. You know, German Engineering and Superior Materials and all that.
just demonstrating the power of the interwebz: so Shannon Watts (nee Shannon Renee Marmion, DOB 1971) (https://soundcloud.com/shannon-marmion-watts) had a Missouri traffic ticket from 5/2/96 (around graduation time from Missouri-Columbia) (she was doing 84 in a 70) and failed to appear in court. A warrant was issued for her arrest. She finally “appeared” in April 1997 and paid the fine. (https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do) – Tsk tsk tsk Shannon. You are a criminal!!!!
MARMION , SHANNON RENEE , Defendant
2012 W ASH APT K8
COLUMBIA, MO 65203
Year of Birth: 1971
04/18/1997 Guilty Plea Written
WGP-WRITTEN GUILTY PLEA
Sentencing Hearing Held
SNTNCD-Defendant sentenced; State appears by Prosecuting Attorney. Def. appears. Charge 001 : SPEED POINT 84/70 ;
Hearing Held
CDSPSD-Case disposed in court; Appearance not required. ;
Defendant Sentenced
FINE AMOUNT TOTAL – 35
Judgment Entered
04/04/1997 Warrant Served
WARRET-Warrant served and returned
Hearing Scheduled
State to appear Def to appear ;
11/26/1996 Warrant Issued
WARISS-Warrant Issued
08/21/1996 Arraignment Scheduled
CTNUIC-Arraignment continued by court; State to appear Def to appear ;
05/02/1996 Information Filed
INF-INFORMATION
Arraignment Scheduled
ARGNSF-Arraignment Sched. at filing
Bond- Other Bond Posted
BNDPST-Bond Posted
of course, others have beaten me to the punch:
http://ingunowners.com/forums/legislation-2nd-amendment/306885-moms-demand-action-organizing-public-reach-event-two-days-3.html
Shannon is racist and is pickin on me!!
If your kid is willing to murder his peers at school, you have made years of mistakes that buying a safe won’t change.
so her son is now a certified loon . . . . and potentially a spree killer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTxG2MSGe0
I’m really liking this guy’s videos.
Thanks C!
A silver revolver? I didn’t know they were making them out of precious metal now.
Wouldn’t the M2 actually be considered an assault weapon? M1 carbine but with the full auto trigger group installed?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine
Thank you for the great article! The intellectual honesty is refreshing. Let’s be accountable for our own $hit. Redirect the mental energy from making irrational arguments against gun safe ownership into a grassroots campaign to be more responsible with our weapon storage. It’s a small level of effort that will pay great dividends socially, culturally, and ethically.
This gun feels slim and light to carry. I opted for the .243. The bolt on mine feels great. My only problem is the trigger. I’m shooting 2 inch or so groups at 100yds. I routinely can shoot sub moa with my older ruger mkll in 7mm rem mag, and m77 in 30.06. all using factory ammo. I can’t seem to find what the trigger was set at from the factory. is it supposed to be 3lbs? Dry fire feels great, but when actually shooting it feels like this thing is never going to go off. I will just have to get used to it. I think the gun is capable of tight groups, but the trigger is holding me back. something about the stock makes this gun tough to get a comfortable rest when using my folding shooting table. Seems like shooting prone with a bipod would suit it better. So far I would keep it for a 200yd gun, even though the .243 can go much farther.
Just now found this link doing a “Google” for Conan:
https://plus.google.com/111790913265044608264?socpid=1&socfid=web:infocard:default:image#111790913265044608264/posts?socpid=1&socfid=web%3Ainfocard%3Adefault%3Aimage
This is what it leads to – It seems Dan Coonan is the “new national spokesman for evolve!
Coonan Inc.
Discussion – Oct 15, 2013
#Guns
Coonan Inc. is excited to announce that the legendary gun designer, Dan Coonan, has been asked to be the national spokesperson for Evolve. EVOLVE a not for profit organization promoting gun ownership responsibility. We would love to hear your concerns and questions about firearms, gun ownership, and gun safety. Please send them to: [email protected]. This is your opportunity to have your voice heard in this new and exciting nationwide dialog.
Any gun you own should be on your person or in a truly secure place when it is not. Period. There have been too many stories like this or involving even much younger children who have discharged guns they have “found” resulting in their own death or the death of someone else.
The shooter used a 38 revolver
My guns are locked up, but no I’m not moving them from a quickie lock box to the safe every day. That’s a ridiculous suggestion for something that’s statistically incredibly unlikely to happen. You can’t guard against every situation, and you can’t keep guns out of the hands of those who want them. This applies to criminals making a purchase as well as to the children in your home. Where there’s a will there’s a way. Period. Proper education is your first and best defense. If you have a psycho kid then you need to deal with that situation independently. We do not need every gun-owning american wasting time switching safes or some other BS because of a few nutjobs. That’s gun-grabber logic.
Hallo,everyone!I am 28 years old,in GuangDong Province of China,hao could I get a handgun?I realy love gun very much.if anyone is able to help me,please inform me with e-mail:[email protected].
Thank you very much!
“These ass clowns and their careless parents are going to cost everyone their rights.”
Until these negligent people are individually held accountable, it won’t matter. The grabbers are gonna grab no matter what. Blanket blame of all gun owners is what the agenda pushers do. I suggest we don’t fall into that line of reasoning Mr. Barrett.
Personal responsibility is the message we need to be preaching, not “Gun owners need to ______.”.
Thanks for the slingshot video!
– The projectile has around 50 ft/lbs of energy.
– The projectile used has 6 times the area of a typical 12 gauge rifled slug.
– A slug (standard 2 3/4″) has around 4.5 times the momentum of this steel ball.
– A slug has around 1.8 times the volumetric displacement rate of the ball.
(The last one, especially, ignores all fluid dynamics, material properties, projectile design, etc.)
I want to see different ammo in this thing. 🙂
Not just Texas but anywhere in the South. We get the reputation for being gun loving down here but there are other states that like to exercise their 2nd amendment rights just as much if not more than Texas.
Does anyone else wonder why a Air Marshall has 70 boxes of LE only Ammo? Seems like a lot especially if each Air Marshall has this many boxes stock piled at the tax payers expense.
If he’s against Obamachrist’s policies, he must be a racist. Probably one of dem white self-identified Afro-americans.
This is why Obama signed the ban on the re-importation of M1 carbines and Garands. Just so this guy wouldn’t be able to resupply. Now I see it. I wonder how you swing a full length M1 Garand out the window for your 8 shots of driveby fun?
I’m a CHL holding Texan, but I don’t know if this is necessarily true. Lots of people have guns, but keep them at home or in the truck.
I carry religiously, but most people don’t, even in the south lots of people are unarmed most of the day.
I travel for work a lot and I’ve gotten out of speeding tickets in various parts of Texas because cops were impressed that I actually had a weapon on my person. One of the cops even admitted that most CHL holders hand over their license (because we are required to here) and the first words out of their mouth are ” I’m unarmed” or ” I don’t have a weapon on me”.
For example, as you read this do a gun check, are you carrying right now? Most probably aren’t because of work, school, or whatever.
Gun check yourself and your buddies often, you’d be surprised how many people can carry, but chose not to, for whatever reason.
article idea – newbie’s guide to open carry / shooting on public land
lol@ sks
In and Out in deadly silence.
The Truth
http://www.un.org/disarmament/ATT/media/presskit/ATT_Myths_and_Facts.pdf
WoW! A true glimpse of gun “common sense” in the media. Will wonders ever cease?
Please. This is her form of narcissism – she gets to take the morale high-ground while announcing to her peers that a bunch of knuckle-draggers think she’s hot. She’s eating this up.
Besides, I have seen actual calls for violence from not just anti-gun commenters, but from the journalists, politicians and bloggers that provide them their platform for hatred.
In keeping with this I say, Fuck’em!
Anyone know any long range ranges in eastern PA?
I really didn’t hear any difference at all, just the trigger reset mostly. But that’s a fine rifle you got there Nick, tell me, iv seen a lot of videos of suppressed rifles, did you edit this to be so quiet or is it just that good?
Also, has the suppressor been a pain in the ass to take care of? Or is it simply an issue of running a bore snake?
Thanks in advance.
The best thing about long range rifle shooting is also the best thing about short range pistol shooting.
It’s the shooting.
shameless self plug.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9IIV2iyDUc
THIS VIDEO IS SOOOOO OLD. Saw this years ago.
Idiotic cop.
That chart is a joke. New Jersey.
Just in time for Christmas.
I’m sick of this LEO’s face so much danger we ought to respect them and cut them slack for the risks they take. IMO, they may face a given criminal encounter more frequently than a non-LEO, but they are in FAR LESS danger than a no-LEO in the same situation. They are always armed; they usually have body armor; they have a direct and near immediate source of help at all times; they have plausible dependability; they have the assumption of innocence/duty about their actions; and they have a giant “brotherhood” to cover their ass should they misuse any of their authority. The non-LEO has what to face danger with?
/end rant
I think any LEO who was presented a badge as part of the CCW ID process would think to him/herself, “another freaking cop wannabe…” and who needs to start an interaction with the other party already thinking that? It’s bad enough to be considered a right-wing-extremist-gun-loving-baby-killing-terrorist.. having them laughing at us would be just too much.