Miami beach spring break party college students
College students have fun during their spring break in South Beach, at Miami Beach, Fla. (AP Photo/Alan Diaz, File)
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Thousands of college students and other young people gather annually in Miami Beach for spring break, and this is the second year in a row that officials for the South Florida city have declared a state of emergency in this famed partying spot.

The mayor said about 100 guns have been seized over the past four weeks, and several police officers have been injured while controlling the crowds.

“We can’t endure this anymore. We just simply can’t,” Gelber said. “This isn’t your father or your mother’s spring break. This is something wholly different.”

Gelber noted that the five people were shot over the weekend despite 371 police officers being deployed.

Three people were wounded early Sunday on a street crowded with spring breakers in the city’s South Beach neighborhood, police said. Two victims wounded at the scene were taken to a hospital, while doctors at another hospital reported a third person arrived there with a gunshot wound. All were expected to survive.

— David Fischer in Spring break shootings: Miami Beach emergency brings curfew

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  1. I don’t see a real problem. Darwin Awards for people who can’t learn to avoid trouble spots.

    At age 65, I’ve never attended a Spring Break. I’ve never attended Burning Man. I’ve never attended a major motorcycle rally. Never did concerts with tens of thousands of screaming fans trapped inside a fire trap.

    The stupidest thing I ever did, was to give in to my wife’s desire to attend New Year’s celebrations in Times Square. It is anathema to survival to attend any densely packed celebrations, where anything can happen. Anything.

    Darwin Awards are free. Go get you one!

    • I agree. In high school (1978) a cousin talked me into going with him to an REO concert. We were standing near the stage when a fight broke out. The crowd tried to make space which caused panic. My cousin and I nearly got squeezed and then trampled to death. Never again. I don’t go anywhere where a large crowd gathers and possibly get wild. I go to the county fair only during the daytime and low crowd times.

      • y’all would not have enjoyed slam dance/ stage dive at all. did either of you play (tackle) football? similar, with “music.”

        • Not so much like a music concert. I played high school football on defense and thoroughly enjoyed bang-bang time. Getting caught in a compressing crowd is an entirely different situation. There’s no room leverage and momentum. In the concert situation the crowd squeezed together so quickly and densely that air was pushed from everyone’s lungs. That effect causes everyone to further panic. Not a fun situation.

  2. This is what happens when objective standards of morality and decency are replaced with hedonism and inability to differentiate between right and wrong.

    This isn’t a gun problem, it’s a cultural decay problem.

    • Napresto,

      Amen. I was about to write “this is what happens when we remove God from our thinking, our culture”.

        • That goes for you too, muckraker (see below). I nor anyone else requires your forced ministrations.

        • Yeah, no. Go back and read what you and lifesaver both said and then read my reply again. (I’m replying of course to your reply to me, it somehow ended up here). Also, see my reply to Sam to clarify.

        • I’m not talking about a teacher telling all the students in a classroom that it’s time for prayer. I’m talking about a group of students maybe in the classroom before class starts praying together. Nobody forcing you to join. Again if that offends you too bad.

        • Muckraker, I am obviously referring to the idea of making prayer mandatory in public schools which was suggested by you. My reading of your comment and if that was not your intent or meaning then I apologize but my sentiments (in that regard) certainly stand. And no, I’m not offended by hearing prayer, that’s none of my business, but I am adamantly against it being mandatory. It’s a touchy subject with me so again, I retract my words if you meant no such thing.

        • Rider/Shooter,
          I wasn’t clear. That was my mistake. I’m sorry for not clarifying. I do not believe in forced prayer in schools. However that isn’t good enough for some on the left, they don’t even want anyone to join together in prayer in their presence to which I say too bad ignore it and let them be.

        • Muckraker, good to hear and I agree about the left. Sorry for jumping on you without asking your intent first as I should have. I just see that kind of crap way too much and have personal experience with it. If I could delete my comment(s) I would.

        • “This is a perfect example of the coach who prayed with a few students out on the football field. They weren’t hurting anyone“

          Textbook violation of the First Amendment.

          The coach is the authority figure, he holds the power of grades, participation on the team, and retention or expulsion from school over those students.

          I, as a taxpayer, and one of many, am paying his salary to provide education, not religious indoctrination.

          The school football field where he is proselytizing is publicly owned property, intended for the education and recreation of school students, not a church for cult members to control.

          Of course, school administrator lead prayer would be fine, as long as I may come down and hold a small ceremony to my particular God, involving ritual cannibalism. We’ll be drinking blood and eating flesh, all symbolically of course as part of our ritual.

          Please advise the name and location of the school, as well as contact info, thanks!

        • School prayer being mandatory isn’t required any more than arming teachers. What is needed is to stop disallowing it.

      • Yeah, I’ll tell you what, lifesavor: you don’t force your personal highhanded superstitions on me or mine in a publicly funded venue and I will return the favor. Neither myself nor any of my confirmed atheist friends or family have committed anything more grevious to society than the odd parking or speeding ticket. Ever. You keep that stuff to yourself. Understand what I’m saying?

        • “Yeah, I’ll tell you what, lifesavor: you don’t force your personal highhanded superstitions on me or mine in a publicly funded venue…”

          Rider….this is not a publicly funded venue. It is open to the public, but no public funds are involved.

          Kinda surprised at you aversion to reading an opinion you don’t like, especially the harsh wording.

          Are you familiar with Pascal’s Wager?

        • I’m not forcing anything on you. You don’t need to listen to my prayer and you certainly don’t have the right to stop me and a few of my fellow believers from praying even if you’re within earshot. I’m not trying to make you believe and if you’re offended by overhearing a prayer go find yourself a “safe space”.

        • Sam, respectfully, a public school is a publicly funded institution (I think you mistook my meaning). There is an exceedingly good reason for separation of church and state and I will never stand by and see my children nor anyone else’s be forced to bend knee and bow head daily to what would be nothing short of religious tyranny, as all mandates of any kind always are. Nor would I presume to walk into a privately funded venue and force my opinions and habits on them and theirs. Ever.

        • This is a perfect example of the coach who prayed with a few students out on the football field. They weren’t hurting anyone nor were they forcing anyone to join them. If that offends you to bad. Ignore it and get on with your life. It was after the game and even a few students from the other team joined in.

        • Rider/Shooter,

          I said nothing about forcing faith on anyone. That approach is actually contrary to the meaning of faith. You seem to have interpreted that I am saying people who do not have faith are somehow flawed. That is not at all my point. In fact, I have posted on TTAG that I think atheism is a good start in clearing away all the preconceptions about God, clearing the mind, opening the mind.

        • “Are you familiar with Pascal’s Wager?“

          Yes, and that’s exactly why I believe in my particular deity!

          It’s very simple, if Zeus does not exist and you believe in him, no problem when you die.

          But if Zeus does exist, and you don’t worship him, he will make you suffer for eternity when you die.

          So obviously, the logical choice is to worship Zeus, pascals wager could not be more clear.

        • @miner
          That only works if your a believer, otherwise there is no eternity for someone that just fades into nothingness upon death.

        • “confirmed atheist”? That sounds much like a religion to me. Rider – you’re an idiot.

        • @ Albert Hall
          ” Never in the history of man has a prayer been answered. ”
          Maybe maybe not , seems to me the frogs got a pretty good handle on who to pray to.
          They start singing and three days later it rains.

        • neiowa, first off I’m pretty far from being an idiot thank you. Second off, in exactly what way does a lack of belief in a deity and an absence of paying homage to one resemble a religion? Unlike the religious I push my views on no one but I do take umbrage when that article of respect and humility is not returned to me and mine. Was it the word ‘confirmed’? Fine, change it to ‘convinced’. Now, who is “the idiot”? (your wording, not mine)

      • Lifesavor, yes, I rather jumped to the conclusion you were speaking of mandatory prayer in school etc as that’s an all too common theme amongst the religious, whether you say it’s against Christian or tenets or not it most certainly exists. My apologies as on reading your comment again I see that wasn’t really (maybe) what you were saying. I have strong feelings on that subject and for good reason. Again, sorry for the misguided assumption but I am raising an eyebrow (maybe two) at your suggestion that “atheism” is maybe somehow an acceptable gateway drug to opening ones mind to God, or am I misreading that one as well? I see much arrogance in the state of mind of the devout, not from all but certainly from most that hold forth on it.

        • Rider/Shooter,

          I very much appreciate these words you wrote: “…I am raising an eyebrow (maybe two) at your suggestion that “atheism” is maybe somehow an acceptable gateway drug to opening ones mind to God…”.

          On the assumption that there is no God, the opening of the mind is all about self-fulfillment, becoming the best ‘you’. After all, an atheist who has thoroughly rid himself of all dogma and mythology has every intention of getting his life correctly. Clarity of thought, analytics unencumbered by prejudice. If there is a God, that’s where God will be found. If there is not a God, that’s where the atheist discovers his true self. We can have fun debating whether these is a difference. (Wry smile!).

          Good conversation!!! Thank you!

      • lifesavor, understood… sorta. A clean slate n all that but it still strikes me that you are being somewhat cryptic in your last sentences. If you are suggesting that an atheist, finding no evidence of nor requirement for a god on that slate, then considers himself ‘god’ or maybe superior in some way (I’m not saying you are, it’s just that I’ve heard that little jewel a hundred times over as well) then that’s pretty far off the mark and would demonstrate just one of the arrogant assumptions many of the more devout ‘deliver unto’ those who do not share their chosen (or more often chosen for them) personal beliefs. Claiming moral superiority would be another example, claiming to have meaning in their life where I/we have none would be another, claiming to be in possession of ‘the truth’ another, claiming Darwinian evolution an unfounded religion of its own another (witness neiowa above attempt to hang the hat of religion on ‘athiesm’ and then tossing in a personal insult for good measure: how very Christian of him) and on and on…

    • I don’t think cultural decay is the right description.

      I think a more accurate way to say it is, cultural destruction.
      The left has been working for decades to destroy America and the culture is one facet they are working on…..and succeeding.

      Young people are indoctrinated from K to grad school now days and we are seeing the results daily; shootings, “mostly peaceful protests”, no morals, hatred of America.

      The left has control of the government and will go all out to keep control. They will probably steal the mid term elections. Things will get a lot worse before anything changes, to the good.

      • You’re correct about the left. Per my comments above I wasn’t talking about forced prayer in the classroom. I was talking about students having the freedom to pray before or after class with each other. But that still isn’t good enough. The left wants to be protected from even being within earshot of a prayer. I’m saying students and teachers have the absolute right to pray with each other if they want as long as it doesn’t interrupt class. The left wants to shut down everything they disagree with. I will fight to stop them.

        • Nothing to do with bloody politics OR religion. Prayer is only a method of providing those that ‘pray’ with the thought that that are actually doing saomething when more direct action would perhaps be more appropriate. Once RELIGION enters into the debate any chance of LOGIC or CRITICAL THINKING exit’s. Never in the history of man has a prayer EVER been answered.

        • Well, Albert the Subject, since you are obviously an atheist f*** of a subject (obviously, worshipping your Queen doesn’t leave room for another deity), you literally have NO FREAKIN’ IDEA what prayer is all about. Jesus told us (literally) to pray in the closet. That public prayers were more about flexing your prayer than actually communing with the deity.

          But that is just more of your subject f***tardery, so I’ll ignore it. If I am not knocking on your door to “give you the good word”, asking you to support my “cause”, or making you defer to my religious observances (like your beloved Muslims now do throughout every “British” city they have invaded), it’s literally NONE OF YOUR F***ING BUSINESS who I pray to, when I pray, or what I pray for. NONE. OF. YOUR. F***ING. BUSINESS.

          Eat feces and expire, subject. Go kiss your Queen’s ancient, wrinkled arse, since that’s what you worship.

          There’s a reason why we kicked your feeble arses to the curb back in 1776. We were right to do it, and we are right to mock your pathetic pretensions now. How’s it feel to be a third-rate “power”, subject????

    • Of course it’s an ELFIN GUN PROBLEM when people get shot. Is it beyond reason to pint out that if guns were not present there would be no shootings .

      • “Is it beyond reason to pint out that if guns were not present there would be no shootings .”

        Theoretically, you would be correct. In 1996, UK banned private ownership of handguns. Has crime with a handgun (or long gun) disappeared? Why not? Prior to, and including 1996, how many law-abiding gun owners were involved in violent crime while using a handgun? How did banning handguns owned by private subjects lead to a reduction in violent crimes committed by a hand gun? Did the criminal element really decide that since handgun ownership was banned, handgun use in crimes would be avoided because handguns were illegal?

        As I have challenged anti-gunners here, once you have proof of confiscating all firearms from criminals/gangs/terrorists, then we can discuss confiscating/banning handguns possessed by law-abiding gun owners.

        And please, don’t go to the childish retort, “If it saves only one”.

        The problem with “no guns, no gun crime” is that the term is used only with respect to legal gun owners (not to even mention confiscating 400mil legally owned handguns). No anti-gunner has a plan to disarm criminals (hard work is anathema to the liberal elites).

      • Technically, if the gun disappeared from all human existence then there would be no more people getting shot by someone with a gun. That is true but that is not any more possible than it is to remove the capability within the human heart to kill another person. Getting rid of guns is not and never will be the answer. People will find ways to kill each other. The concept of war exists and is never going away. This is there as a result of human free will and what is commonly referred to as the seven deadly sins. This isn’t a reference to anything religious. Its a reality of being human.

        That genie is not going back into the bottle.

        • And it certainly isn’t as if those who seek to disarm us would ever relinquish theirs (or the guns of their proxy saviours: the almighty State). Gunms are here to stay.

      • An Elfin gun problem? Northern Europe was Christianized long ago; there aren’t any alfar there that you can blame.

      • As Gordon Ramsay might say, “Oh, F*** off!!”. You aren’t even worth insulting, subject. Did you ask your Queen for permission to have an opinion??? Are you sure it’s an “approved” opinion??? What if they change the official “approved” opinion tomorrow??? Waddayagonnado???

        Sod off, swampy.

  3. An armed society is not a polite society. A mix of young people below 25 years of age mixed in with booze and naked women is a shooting waiting to happen. You can always count on the male naked ape to live down to his lowest bestial level.

    • I only see half naked women in the picture. Am I missing something? Is this like the emperor’s clothes?

    • darcydodo…A bunch of dorm room guys and gals intoxicated on a beach, in the streets, in bars and in motels and require hundreds of police to babysit them does not define, “polite society.” In fact it’s the results of the stupidity morons like you who insert marixist manure between the ears of gullible useful idiots. When it’s marxist manure that’s guiding them there’s no telling what can happen when they drive, find a gun, want to show off, get angry, etc.

      You can bet your orange hair the once a happy go lucky college age individual who criminally misused a firearm in Florida and sees their new living conditions will suddenly become very “polite” with officers, detectives, bondsmen, jailers, lawyers, mommy and daddy, etc.

      Once again…You have no podium.

    • So, dacian the stupid, now that you’ve explained to us your particular pathology (no one on here really believed you were anything other than a failure of a teenage, or PERHAPS a particularly retarded twenty-something, living in mom’s basement), no, we wouldn’t prefer you to have a gun at spring break.

      OTOH, I have been at MANY parties while armed . . . and I’ve never even presented my gun, or felt the need to. Perhaps something to do with adult cognitive function, ya think???

      You have typical Leftist/fascist disease – “I can’t be trusted to do this, so no one else can do it!!”. Yeah, we KNOW you’re an unstable psychopath, but don’t project your mental illnesses onto the rest of us. We can behave just fine. Sorry you are incapable of civilized behavior (but, then, we already knew that).

  4. So the gang bangers had a change of venue!? Lots of young white kids with money and drunk chick’s, eh?

    • Not as familiar with Florida but would it be similar to PA where Pittsburgh gets a slight increase in crime goes for on the hour coverage of a gun violence epidemic while barely meeting a typical workday crime rate for Philly in an attempt to be relevant/push an agenda?

    • Maybe they’re taking their cue from the idiot manchild up here in Canada with the recent Minority Revolt of our truckers. They all seem to be reading from the exact same script for everything else.

      • World Economic Forum/Council of Foreign Relations/various other corporate-banking entities do tend to have a procedure.

        • Well I wish they would implement their Final Solution soon. I own way too much stuff and I just want to be happy…

  5. Let’s face it. Alcohol/drugs do not mix safely with guns or operating any machinery. People who can’t control themselves with a couple of drinks inside them, don’t need to visit areas where there are others of the same.

    I would bet that most of these shootings were over drugs and the rest were because someone got disrespected in a relationship or the like. I remember sprig break one year where there were a knife fight and a machete slashing – that was in the early 70s.

    • We get those throughout the Albany Schenectady Troy region (machete makes the news knives not so much) with a surprising regularity. Also get the “thank god they didn’t have a gun” comments despite a higher fatality rate for the knives for 8 out of the last 10 years. Now that I think of it more Amsterdam has a lot of knife attacks as well.

      • Smart money is on local gang members. I’m sure Spring Break is a MAJOR moneymaker for anyone involved in the drug trade, especially in such a touristy area as South Beach

  6. In one of the true open sewers of this country, those wishing to exercise their “personal freedoms” are making their attempt to inflict their beliefs on others at gunpoint.
    The current state Governor has done all he can to insure their success.
    Following their combined efforts to overthrow order, the state Government-backed mobs plan to spread out and infect the remainder of the state with vigorous amounts of caustic “personal freedoms”.

    • “The current state Republican Governor has done all he can to insure their success.
      Following their combined efforts to overthrow order, the state Republican Government-backed mobs plan to spread out and infect the remainder of the Republican state with vigorous amounts of caustic “personal freedoms”.

      • Congratulations on one of the stupidest statements I’ve ever read. You and Whitey68 conflating “personal freedoms” with the unlawful acts of a few miscreants. Obviously these people are criminals that violated the rights of others. “Overthrow order”, “infect the state with caustic personal freedoms”. Our government works for us not the other way around. They don’t grant us personal freedoms. They are to protect our personal freedoms. I am not willing to have my freedoms curtailed because some criminal might do what criminals do. What’s your solution besides neutering people’s rights?

  7. Why would all these woke college kids be damaging the climate and risking COVID killing grandma by going to the DeSantis Death Trap just to get drunk?

    They should be interning at NPR or attending Calvinist academic lectures that berate them for their various privileges and blame them for coming climatological eschaton that will engulf the world in hellfire.

    • “They should be interning at NPR or attending Calvinist academic lectures that berate them for their various privileges and blame them for coming climatological eschaton that will engulf the world in hellfire.”

      I really enjoyed this turn of phrase. Well done, and highly accurate.

        • The Presbyterian Church has become infested with some real weirdos in recent times.

      • He did wax rather poetic. Maybe you and he can collaborate in your ghost writing aspirations for your retirement supplemental income/hobby Montana.

        • Adub, we are collectively the Intelligentsia of the People of the Gun… at least before Happy Hour hits.

  8. Too much money, no sense of responsibility.

    In college, I worked as a night manager at a restaurant in New Jersey to earn the funds to pay my tuition and other expenses. I did not understand how so many of my peers could afford spring break. Even then, a hundred years ago, spring break had a wild reputation.

    I know, I know, “…walked five miles to school, barefoot, uphill each way…”

    • You forgot “through waist-deep snow…”

      Many of us had to work our way through college / university. The money and time was not there for me to travel somewhere just to make an ass of myself.

      • OG in M,

        I do not need to travel to make an ass of myself. I am perfectly capable of doing that right here in my home town.


        • “Many somewhere had to walk in waist deep snow to get to school, and it was uphill both ways!”

          We faced the same conditions in grade school. Only, we did it without shoes.

    • Our daughter wanted us to take a few days off work so we could all go together to Paducah, KY for a few days over her spring break. She needed to do a field trip for one of her landscape architecture classes some time this semester, and she thought this would be a good time for it.
      We spent a few days traipsing around the river confluences and Land Between The Lakes area, and she got lots of photos and notes for her project. She has pretty well developed negative opinions of general hedonism, and the folks who pursue that kind of lifestyle.

    • “Would this article even exist if Florida had passed permitless carry?“

      Yes, 20,000 drunken 20year olds being granted permission to put a Glock in their pocket next to their tequila and ecstasy tabs would make everything so much better.

      • 1 -can’t buy a handgun at age 20.

        2 – if they know how to get Street drugs then they know how to get guns illegally. How is a lack of a permit going to stop them again?

        • You… never went to university, did you? You don’t have to *know* anything to get drugs on a college campus except how to use money.

      • First, 20 year olds can’t legally purchase a handgun. Secondly. as with most permitless carry states, that is for of age, legal residents/citizens only. Although a permit from reciprocating states is accepted. Or so it would have been if the bill had made it out of committee. Of course, those who are likely to commit such crimes are also not likely to follow the requirements to have a permit or be of legal age.
        I never had the chance to go out on spring break. Was either working, or was in the military.

    • You betcha. In fact, the story would be spread all over cable news. “Ron DeSantis signs permitless carry into law and Spring Break erupts in a hail of gunfire.”

      Literally nothing would make the anti-gun media happier.

      • Yet,
        So many guns found and that didn’t happen.

        I would submit that the same guns would have still been there and the same people hurt the same way regardless. Just not reported as being confiscated as being illegal. These are not high school kids (although many will act like it). A large number of the (if not most) would be atleast 21 (yes, speculation). The media and the left will go nuts no matter what happens.

  9. My wife is a free lance journalists and on the ground there at spring break, she is covering aspects for a news outlet. I’ll tell you what she is telling me…

    They did not declare a state of emergency because people got shot.

    There have been closer to 1,200 arrests so far, property damage, hundreds engaging in general lawlessness, excessive drinking and violence, people have been injured from being attacked and beaten, and (sort of roving) predominantly black crowds have engaged in contributing greatly to the lawlessness and assaults and property damage and had to be broken up with rubber bullets and swat teams. Hundreds of assaults with bare hands or objects. Its chaos and alcohol fueled crime that’s the reason for the state of emergency.

    People getting shot is not the primary focus of the state of emergency. One of those though to have been shot actually wasn’t shot, a young woman cut her leg badly when she was caught in a stampede when shots were heard and was transported to the hospital where it was found to have been a cut and not a gunshot wound. So its actually 2 shot and not 3.

    As far as shootings are concerned, that’s something that’s usually seized upon and amplified greatly but its not the reason for the state of emergency.

  10. To connect the dots, you have to cross a lot of unknown space.

    Were the individuals involved locals or out-of-state visitors? Was it a random shooting or an argument over the price of a controlled substance? Was the shooter someone with a criminal record or a Call-of-Duty enthusiast? How many shootings on average for the time and place?

    Locally, we have a problem with Spring Break. It is not because of the actions of the youth, but the traffic. It is not that Spring Break is a problem. We have the same problem with Cruising the Coast and just about every other large gathering. We don’t blame Spring Break attendees.

  11. “There’s something happening here
    But what it is ain’t exactly clear
    There’s a man with a gun over there
    Telling me I got to beware”

    “I think it’s time we stop
    Children, what’s that sound?
    Everybody look – what’s going down?”
    – Buffalo Springfield.

    Have never “seen” a spring break season like this one. More shootings than ever before; not confined to Florida beaches. Not believing in coincidence, without thorough research and analysis for connections/similarities.

      • “Tune up yer gee-tar yet Sam?”

        Nah. The axe is too far away from my martini fixin’s. But, I’ll think about tunin’ it some more.

        • Well slap on some Buffalo Springfield or CSNY for your next fixins and maybe you’ll get inspired (as well as inebriated). I have it on excellent authority that martinis pair well with truly classic rock…

      • Yes, it probably will, MinorIQ. But even if it doesn’t, it just means that geniuses like Samuel Colt, John Moses Browning, Eugene Stoner, et al. were helping Darwin along. We have entirely too many people on earth who “think” like you do. Read C.M. Kornbluth’s “The Marching Morons”. He describes you to a “T”.

    • Hey wait a minute, I thought all the Black people are the ones raising hell?

      In the video they’re just standing around, videoing with their cell phones.

      I thought it was only illegal when Black people video cops, not private citizens?

    • “They?” You want inmates running the asylum to have more guns? Perhaps if the inmate realizes they might encounter an armed citizen they will think twice, three times, four times before acting? I mean if a criminal resides in a Constitutional Carry State the odds of an unarmed defenseless citizen are no longer in favor of the criminal. Constitutional Carry even benefits pathetic worthless incompetent losers who have a problem with a citizen carrying a firearm under a coat or in a purse, etc. Problem solved.

  12. So these are “college students” going on spring break with handguns? I doubt it.

    More likely it’s the dealers vying for territory selling fentanyl & meth.

  13. One of the three that was supposedly shot wasn’t shot as reported. She was caught in the stampede and cut her leg badly. They thought initially she had been shot and was transported to the hospital, but at the hospital they discovered that her leg had been cut badly.

    • Yeah baby, them was the days!

      “A nearby farmer stated that two of his cattle and several hogs were killed and cooked for food. The portable toilets were turned over and emptied after they were quickly filled up.[2]

      By Monday, July 22, the festival crowd had left, leaving a field of garbage behind. Damage estimates of $100,000 were reported, as well as one death and over 1,000 drug overdoses.[1]

      After the festival the city of Sedalia only had a few weeks to clean up for the Missouri State fair, so helicopters were used for spraying lime over the fairgrounds as a precaution against the possible outbreak of disease.[citation needed]

      On the ground, bulldozers scraped up the topsoil, which was (reportedly) littered with discarded drug paraphernalia and gnawed cobs of corn from a neighboring field along with mountains of contaminated dirt and garbage which were hauled to the county landfills.“

      Even 50 years ago, them white folk could party out in the field like nobody’s bidness.

  14. @Rider…

    Although comments lament the removal of God from public schools, not seeing anyone advocating/demanding a return. Removing God from public schools is one of the many societal influences that once limited our worst selves. The dramatic abandonment of “manners” in society cannot ignore a lack of a public standard that was part of a whole array of norms that focused people on not being selfish, self-centered, at all times.

    The US Constitution was established based on the concept that there is a single Creator of the universe, a sole legitimate source of law and order. This of power established the power of “the people” to rule themselves IAW natural law of human rights. It was this Creator who enabled “the people” to establish governments, not governments to establish people. Without an unassailable source of good/moral, everything is left to the immediate pleasure of individuals, and might makes right.

    The authority of the founders of the US did not stem from the individuals, but from the individuals acting under authority from the Creator. It was this authority that distinguished the Americans, and the constitution, from “the devine right of kings”. It was authority devolved from the Creator that justified independence from England.

    While the founders of the US based their authority on a single Creator, they also considered themselves accountable to that Creator. Without that accountability to the source of good/moral, the founders were accountable only to themselves, and what ever force or power they could employ to obtain desired benefits. Whether we, down here, want to hear it or not, our nation is founded on the existence of a Creator, a single source of all rights for the individual. Thus, reference to the influence of the Creator upon society (limiting the personal affinity for individual privilege over all others) is in keeping with the principles of those who established our government.

    Canada is founded on the principle that government justifiably rules the people; the US was founded on the principle that the people rule the government (a principle almost invisible today).

    On a harsh note, your demand not to be forced to deal with religion is the same as others demanding you not force then to desert their beliefs. You have the natural, human and civil right to not listen to others, but not the natural, human and civil right to prevent others from speaking (at least down here).

    • There is much here that I would really like to see a textual reference for:

      “a sole legitimate source of law and order“

      “The authority of the founders of the US did not stem from the individuals, but from the individuals acting under authority from the Creator.“

      How do you not see the contradiction in this statement:

      “acting under authority from the Creator. It was this authority that distinguished the Americans, and the constitution, from “the devine right of kings”

      “Authority from the creator” is just a restatement of ‘the divine right of kings’

      The only authority is in the sentence, “a government of, for and by the people”, no imaginary deities need apply.

    • Sam, I hope you read the extended comments in that exchange and my accompanying apologies for making an unwarranted assumption, even though the general assumption is, indeed, much warranted. Technicalities of founding documents and era specific principles aside, a strong moral fiber etc stands on it’s own and speaks for itself. Like all things it has no requirement nor need of/for a creator (in the theological sense). Christianity or previous/other religions most certainly did not originate the concept of morals nor a conscience and the likelihood of a majority of people/founders at the time holding a particular faith results in the proposed reasoning behind actions taken at the time. How about Rome? And Sam, you do me a disservice (as I did them) to think that my harsh reaction is so I don’t have to “deal with religion”: my umbrage was aimed squarely at having the doctrine of religion(s) forced upon me and mine. Never will I allow that to happen, not while I’m still breathing. I trust you understand.

      • Rider,

        A moral code must be “forced” on humans, through one means or another. Humans are corrupt at the core; toddlers do not have to be taught to lie; natural human response to avoid responsibility for our actions. If there is no accepted universal code of “good” behavior, then might truly does make right. Indeed, “western” morality was “forced upon Europe”.

        Today, we can say that this, or that, conqueror of the past was “evil”, “immoral”, or some other description regarding lack of morality as “western” convention sees it. However, given a different culture, and “looking” through different eyes, why is preemptive destruction of persons and places wrong? If morality was/is simply the natural condition of humans, then why all the endless wars among humans?

        All things are either right or wrong because “we” say so. Based on what? If not a rigid standard behavior that originates outside our base nature, what/where is the standard? “Because I say so?” Moral authority comes from somewhere. If there is no immovable, universal, standard then everyone is their own moral authority, and no one is “good”, or “bad”, except by their own judgement. Whence comes “might makes right”.

        The framers of the US Constitution looked to a Creator as the font of authority to overthrow a government. Without such authority, the framers would be left with only, “revolutions have consequences” as justification for creating a new nation. If that were/is the justification, then the next revolution becomes the moral authority for itself….might makes right. If that be the case, then the subsequent rulers actually do have the moral authority to force upon you (and me) their concepts of “right and wrong”.

        (Yes, I do understand that your original use of “force” related to government imposed exposure to “religion”.)

        • Sam, I’ve never agreed with the wording “might makes right” if the word “right” denotes proper or acceptable or whatever. A more correct phrasing would/should be “might makes things happen”. The only reason the pen may be mightier than the sword is because the pen can be used to call up more swords. God or no God it is still very much a natural world, red in tooth and claw. The only rights we have are the ones we are willing to, literally, fight to retain so in that sense I don’t believe ‘rights’ even technically exist except (as I am convinced religion and the concept of a god is) as entirely man made constructs. Time and mathematics are other examples; simply constructs to explain/describe/record/predict the passage/properties/etc of material occurrences. Good for the framers if in their time they chose to invoke a popular higher power as the driving force behind morality but how explain myself (and billions of others) as being of decent moral fibre when not once in my life have I ever given the precepts of religion any weight whatsoever? Obviously we are all creatures of our immediate environment, shaped by events and those around us, so then the question would arise: where did religion obtain its (much abused) moral guidelines from (as religion, at least organized religion, is an exceedingly recent phenomenon amongst the great apes, all of whom display at least some small showing of moral based decision making), just as one can/must then ask from whence God? And I would ask in the same vein as you elsewhere posed with “don’t give me that if we can just save one life stuff” to not present me with the “but God is eternal” gambit 😉. God can belabor us with all the moral weightiness he/she/it desires but it still takes us to carry out a moral act in exactly the same way we can, by the simple use of force/might, carry out an immoral act. It’s all too contrived and convenient for my tastes (and I would add obviously so). Now that I’ve veered all over the place: yes, the ‘standard’ for moral behaviour is very much “because I say so” with the overiding caveat of the social contract: “because WE say so”. Organized religion through the millennias may very well have taken root (in part) as a means to impose a code on society but that by no means demonstrates it was the origin of such thinking or behaviour. I mean, it could’ve all started instead with the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster, the one deity I’m recently inclined to have any faith in at all 😁. Mostly thought I find myself hanging out in the Tabernacle of Fine Single Malts… Cheers Sam.

      • Rider,

        The father of one of my best friends was a devout Muslim. One of the most kind, peaceful people I have ever known. Another friend is an atheist (we’ve had numerous arguments over whether being a “devout” atheist is a religion). Our Founders (PBUT) recognized that.

        No one “needs” religion to be a good person, but everyone “needs” a moral compass to be a good person. After MANY years of religious education, my philosophy comes down to “sin is knowingly doing harm to another human, without justification”. ANY philosophy or religion that gets to that result is OK by me.

        No one has to believe in “my” god to be “good”, but they have to believe in a set of principles that encompasses not knowingly doing harm to another human, without justification. If that’s not a wide enough net for you? I got nothin’.

        • Lamp, not sure of your point in this post. Myself and millions even billions are of sound moral character without the crutch and dogma of a religion to point our way to the light (see one of my replies to Sam). “Atheism”, (as the religious are wont to call it in their narrow view of ‘how things are’ and by that I mean they tend to view all things in the way they are accustomed to seeing things, i.e.; any other ‘body of thought’ strikes them as a religion and thus Darwin, for example, as the ‘athiests’ deity figure or prophet, etc) is the utter lack of “religion”, the lack of a belief in a deity figure, the lack of dogma (unless the religious see it as correct to call the scientific method ‘dogma’, which it most certainly ain’t) etc. It is as far as it is possible to get from being “a religion”, indeed it could be called the polar opposite, just as the scientific method is to faith, light to dark (if I may be so bold). My net is wide, Lamp, wider than most, prob wider than yours and I hold a personal faith/thinking against no one. It’s when they try to to push their ways onto me and mine that I take (great) offense, as I’m sure you would. When’s the last time a couple of atheists knocked on your door to ‘spread the good word’, to ‘save you from your sins and thus eternal damnation and hellfire’? (and please remember to leave a small donation at the door). If what you are trying to say is that a moral compass does not require faith in a deity, then I agree. If instead you are trying to suggest that a moral compass can only come from or originated from religion then, no, not only would I disagree but would go further and declare you very mistaken in that viewpoint. Again, hard for me to discern what you’re saying but as regards your atheist friend; I very much suspect you are imposing that “narrow viewpoint” I referred to above on the guy. He, no doubt, sees things much as I do and for him it’s patently ridiculous to hear someone attempt to conflate having a lack of faith as being in anyway similar to being a ‘faith’. That’s you Lamp, pushing your view of ‘how things are’ on him (us). Please consider those words for a bit and then show him our two posts over a fine Single Malt (or two) and see what he thinks. There’s a saying: “Good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things. But it takes religion to make a good person do bad things”. Not applying that to you (other than in a miniscule way with your friend) but truer words were never spoken. Cheers.

        • Sorry, I should properly change: “that’s you Lamp, pushing your views…” to: “…projecting your viewpoint…”. A difference with a distinction. Cheers.

  15. @Albert Hall
    “Never in the history of man has a prayer EVER been answered.”

    To actually know that, for your statement to be correct/credible, you would have to be God. Only God could know whether or not there is a God. Only God could know all things, everywhere, at all times.

    It is like proving, or disproving, the existence of Unicorns. I would have to be able to see everywhere, simultaneously, for all time. Not humanly possible.

    • Let me put it this way:

      I have seen no credible evidence prayer works.

      Why would anyone believe prayer works?

        • Well prayed…I mean played… (but it begs the question: and if he had then not have said that?)

      • Yeah, MinorIQ, but YOUR observations aren’t exactly persuasive, since you believe in “common sense gun control” and you believe Gropey Joe isn’t a senile idiot, so . . . no one cares what you think.

      • Like I said before, the frogs have a pretty good handle on who to pray to, every time they sing it rains within 3 days.

      • Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, MinorIQ.

        Don’t believe in God, don’t believe in prayer . . . I literally couldn’t give a s***. It’s your life, order it as you will.

        The difference is, I don’t (OK, I admit that there are some who do – I can’t control them, either) try to impose my religion or beliefs on them. Would that I could say the same about you Leftist/fascists. Everyone is entitled to your opinion. You know how to order the universe, so all us dumb@$$ hicks should shut up and listen to you.

        You don’t like guns? Great, don’t own one. Only “trained” people should have guns? Great, get trained, and even go train other people (I’ve done both).

        Most of what you say is ignorant nonsense. I attribute it to lack of maturity (I mentally peg you as 40 or less, probably young 20s – but there are lots of stupid people between 20 and 40). You think you’re smarter than everyone around you . . . hope that delusion keeps you warm at night. You are NOT smart enough to tell me how to live my life. F*** right the hell off, MinorIQ, if I am in desperate need of a moron to tell me how to live, I’ll look you up.


  17. its notttt the removing of god from the schools

    its the inclusion of leftists telling pro americans that the school unionists are in charge and the

    parents willingness to accept that as “law”

  18. I worked for 10 years down in Gulf Shores Al as a chef. Beach town with a limited Spring Break. Don’t recall any shootings. But, drugs, traffic, general stupidity of drunken, under age college kids, and the miscreants who would take advantage of the situation, gave the city leaders a reason to shut down alcohol sales on the beach front, enforce curfews and generally make things difficult for businesses. Could it be the problem isn’t the guns, but the kids acting stupid and those who prey upon them? Don’t forget, humans have been finding new and exciting ways of doing harm to themselves and others long before firearms were ever invented. Unless you isolate every single person in a padded cell and keep them unconscious, people will find a way of doing violence.

    • oldmaninAL,

      I just GOTTA ask – they “. . . shut down alcohol sales on the beach front . . .”???? WTF did they do with the Florabama Bar???? Spent many a lovely evening at the Florabama Bar, and I own every CD Rusty & Mike sold. Miss the Florabama (heard they rebuilt it, but that it just isn’t the same).

  19. @muckraker
    “If it saves only one.” is why I carry everywhere I go. ”

    Yes, there’s that indeed.

  20. “This isn’t your father or your mother’s spring break. This is something wholly different.”

    Girls in thongs and people with visible tattoos, oh the humanity!

    This isn’t a “Spring Break” issue. It’s purely a governance issue, which is why the problem exploded in 2020 and hasn’t gone back in the bottle.

    Secondary, tertiary, quaternary and further down the line knock-on effects. You’ve concentrated the partying and so you’ve concentrated the associated issues with it.

    If you pile all the shit in a corner of the yard you don’t get to claim that it’s “Not your grandfather’s corner of the yard!”, the issue is obvious.

    Putting people with a <70IQ in charge of everything for decades on end has consequences. Miami was built on cocaine, so this guy can fuck right off with the “it’s novel” nonsense.

    • strych9,

      “Putting people with a <70IQ in charge of everything for decades on end has consequences."

      Don't crush the (futile) dreams of MinorIQ and dacian the stupid, they plan to rule the world. Don't crush their dreams by telling them they couldn't run a lemonade stand.

  21. There is a certain segment of society that has grown up with violence as a problem resolution tactic. It is normal for them. We’ve been ignoring the problem for decades, and will continue to do so because it is far easier to blame the tool that they use. Until we address mental health early on, nothing will change.

    • The rest grew up with the facade that force doesn’t solve things, yet the call men with guns whenever shit goes south…

      • “The rest grew up with the facade that force doesn’t solve things,…”

        At which point, I usually ask the person making that claim, “When was the last time you saw, or read about, the UN Ambassador from the nation of Carthage making a speech before the General Assembly”?

      • strych9,

        Won’t bore you with the full quote, but Robert Anson Heinlein had quite a good riff in “Starship Troopers” on the whole “violence never solved anything” trope. Violence doesn’t always achieve a “just” solution, but . . . it pretty much always achieves a solution.

        • Sam,

          Not kidding, they actually make OWB holsters for salt shakers. You could buy one. Or stop drinking margaritas, whichever is easier.

        • Sam, instructions unclear. Are you spending the wee hours of the morning in Martiniville or Margueritaville? 🙂

  22. @Rider/Shooter

    Effectively, you are correct about “rights”; only those you can personally defend. Without a greater standard upon which to anchor the rights you must defend, then “rights” are subject to the whims of the powerful. For instance, should I take the stance that you have no right to life, then your claim of a right to life is subject to my ability to take if from you. If the only source of authority justifying your right to life is you, then taking life from you establishes that it is I who determines your rights, regardless of your claim. This is the very essence of “might makes right”.

    By taking your life, I affirm and confirm that you have no rights of which I must be aware, or even take account of; all your rights are terminated. Ultimately, if powerful enough, I can obliterate your concept of moral and good, substituting my own concept. If I can influence, or coerce, enough people to validate my morality, this eventually results in a social norm (morality) endorsing the idea that what was formerly considered good is now bad, and what was once bad is now good.

    If individuals can determine good and bad such that it advantages them, then community as a whole can decide that good is what advantages the majority of the populace, bad becomes that which disadvantages me. When individuals decide that they are the sole authority on good and bad, they become, essentially the “god” of their own lives; accountable to no one. A community of such persons is a wonder to behold. Because one of the core failings of humans is the desire to rule over others, especially those who oppose our corrupt desires, eventually there will be war between the “gods”, with the winner becoming the moral authority over others.

    Even persons who live in remote places, alone and disconnected from society, are subject to whatever the power structure decides is good or bad. Any such person who contacts society must abide by the norms/morality (good vs. bad) of whatever society is contacted, for whatever purpose. Indeed, as absolute ruler of society I can launch a campaign to find all the persons living remotely, capturing them, and forcing them into my society. Those who refuse will be eliminated as a source of resistance. Those I cannot capture will be declared “outlaw”, and subject to whatever treatment any other person might visit upon the outlaws. And because such benefits me, the eternal ruler, proclaiming “outlaws”, even the move to capture remote dwellers, is moral and good. All this means that I can even declare you and your children must be educated in any manner I desire, with severe consequences for uttering a single word of resistance.

    If good and bad, right and wrong, moral and immoral are merely human constructs, then, effectively, there is no objective truth, no objective morality. All that remains is eternal warfare between individuals, between societies, and among families. In the end, every person is forced, by tradition or education, to hear and face the propaganda of the ruling class. A society based on religion can be forced upon society, just as a society bases on hostility to religion can be forced upon society. With no objective standards, neither condition is good/bad, moral/immoral, fair/not fair; might makes right.

    • Sam, yes and as I mentioned: that “Social Contract”. And I did qualify the “might makes right” thing by specifically defining “right”. All things in society not stemming directly from the ‘natural’ world (but of course humanity itself and so thus it’s society arise from and exist within that natural world) can be termed “human constructs” (rather obviously, I know) but inevitably these constructs and our contracts must bow down and be subject to that, our, natural world and it’s ultimate law. Without going back through all our posts and mine further up, I think my main point is that religion and those who follow it have no proper claim to being either the home of nor the cradle of these morals and/or our rights nor to “objective standards” per say. Has religion played a role? Definitely, maybe even a large role, but it must be said: for both good and bad. Some rights are indeed naturally inherent (which would certainly include being bestowed by a creator but ONLY if such an entity truly exists and the only thing I know for sure is that nobody knows for sure) and the rest of course are necessarily self bestowed by ourselves and by the society we create, wisely and deliberately chosen or otherwise. That bear has every right to eat that fawn and that doe has every right to protect it as best she can. And Sam has every right to put salt in his morning martini if that’s how he chooses to roll in this brave new world we are making (see above).

      • Dammit. Added a wondrous insight or two but they didn’t take, as happens to so many of my wondrous insights.

      • “natural law”. is as you perceive it is subject to the next tyrant. In reality “natural law” is the law of the jungle. To perceive “natural law” in any other way requires injecting some other influence. For the founders of the US, that “other influence” was manifold, but ultimately anchored in creator whose law is immutable, not malleable.

        A “social contract” is subject to the the will of a society. That “will” can, and has been, supplanted by tyranny. The history of human constructs is conflict and war. Subjugate a people long enough, and subjugation becomes the natural state, a new reference point from which subjugation of others becomes the “social contract”; that which the tyrant likes becomes the norm. That which the tyrant doesn’t like also becomes the norm.

        Prior to 1973 in the US, the “social contract” declared abortion evil, thus illegal. In 1973, the population of the US abandoned a “human construct”, and established a new one. What was once evil/illegal, was declared desirable, legal, and normal. Since 1973 (at least) the US society, social contract has declared more and more once prohibited activities to be “good” and moral. Common thread? Rejecting the morality of the past. The more people who wish to abandon past morality, the more powerful become those people. Numbers (might) make “good” become “bad”, and “bad” become “good”. That is natural law, subject to change by superior power.

        But let’s look at a different society, a different “social contract”, another “natural law” – Hawaii.

        Prior to the coming of the missionaries, the people of Hawaii (largely accepted as originating in the islands of Tahiti) would put “defective”, live born babies at the edge of the sea, to be carried away to their deaths. This practice was “good”, this practice was “normal”, this practice was the “social contract”. It was only when a more powerful agent (western philosophy/morals) subjugated the Hawaiians that what you might think of as “natural law” became the “social contract”. Yes, “might makes right”, just as in the jungle. The question remains, however, which “social contract” was truly “right”?

        In Europe (and elsewhere), there was a time when familial inbreeding was accepted as “good”, even a necessity. Such was the “social contract”, such was “natural law”.

        Without a known, generally accepted, unchangeable set of standards of conduct, established by a power stronger, more moral than humans, who is to say the original Hawaiians were immoral, wrong?

        When it comes to human behavior, it isn’t naturally good, humane, tolerant or benign. If all standards of morality are subject to human changes in morality, no permanent standards can exist in tact.

        We should all be familiar with the law of entropy. The progress of entropy applies to all systems, including individual persons. A system left untouched by an outside force will devolve into chaos. If humans decide what is moral, and humans are not perfect, human conduct will devolve to chaos. So, lacking any absolute authority, authority derived from some unchanging point of origin, humans will fall to natural law (as each one sees it), the law of the jungle, “might makes” right, “right” being subject to the norms of a society.

        You might think stealing from my neighbor is wrong, but I see it as a legitimate exercise of personal interest…stealing to get what I, master of my own empire, need or want. And I can band together with like-minded individuals, and create a society where stealing is the norm. The only way you can control me is by use of a more powerful force.

        Thanx for the discourse, it was intended to prompt you to examine your own ideas with a skeptical eye. You are the only one who can know if my attempt was successful.


        • Sam, regarding your last paragraph, you really aren’t telling me anything I do not already know or would not agree with, as my previous comments show (with the exception of a slight rewording on “might makes right” subject to the qualifier I provided on the specific meaning of the word “right”). And yes, “…red in tooth and claw” would also suggest all are constantly exercising their own personal tyranny/might on others to the best of their ability/right.
          It would seem to me though as regards entropy being applied to society and it’s constructs that given (exercising) ‘free will’ would allow us to distance ourselves somewhat from being entirely subject to the process of entropy, just as we have superficially (but only temporarily) stepped outside of being entirely subject to the selective pressures of evolution. As we shape our environment so might we (as you point out) shape our constructs as we go and thus tip the scales back away from entropy reigning supreme. Humans being what we are though, I’m certain we will just eventually fuck that all up too. Enjoy your martini, Sam, as I will enjoy my shcotch. Cheersh.

  23. @Rider/Shooter
    “Sam, instructions unclear. Are you spending the wee hours of the morning in Martiniville or Margueritaville? ”

    Martinis. Can’t stand gin, vodka or olives.

  24. Don’t blame college kids (white or black) for the mayhem. These are gang-bangers and thugs from the big cities up North coming down to Florida to sell drugs and score with white chicks. Get rid of them and ‘Spring Break’ will return to normal activity.


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