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A Flint, MI Episcopal church (courtesy

The Episcopal Church of Michigan is slightly left of center. OK, they’re so far left they might as well be right. Only in this case they’re wrong. As regular readers know, anyone who starts a sentence, “We support the U.S. Constitution’s protections of the rights of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms but . . .” is working to degrade and destroy Americans’ natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. Which is a bad thing, not a good thing. In this case, Resolution 7 of The Report on the Committee on Reference at the 180th Convention of the Diocese of Michigan finishes the sentence by asserting “we also stand for public policies to ban gun violence and assault weapons. Further we, the undersigned, believe that the victims of gun violence extend beyond the grave of those 26 lost to these tragic shootings.” Wait . . .

How can you ban “gun violence”? That’s like saying ban crime. Which, as far as I know, is already true (ipso facto lads). And it’s “graves” not “grave.” Unless The Great Lake State’s Episcopal Church leaders think the victims of the Sandy Hook slaughter – which they mention without specifically referencing – were buried in a mass grave.

I bring up these quibbles because Resolution 7 is suffused with this type of unnecessary (Google is your friend) inaccuracy. But first, here’s the Episcopalians’ three-point plan to “ban gun violence.” They call for . . .

1. Requiring and enforcing universal background checks on all gun sales;

2. A clear ban on all future sales of military-style semi-automatic weapons, high-capacity ammunition magazines and high-impact ammunition (i.e. ammunition more deadly than ordinarily used in hunting);

3. Making gun trafficking a Federal crime;

Yeah, I know: hunting ammo is far more deadly than most handgun ammo. And where’s that low-impact ammo when you don’t need it? Anyway, here’s the rest of their explanation/rationale for mooting this anti-gun misegos:

Access to guns with rapid fire ability and high capacity magazines are a common, deadly ingredient in these repeated killings. Wholesale murder is made possible because, those without [a] proper moral guide have easy access to these assault weapons. We as a society must face these hard truths. We must have federal and local legislation to ban assault weapons, limit the capacity of gun magazines, and institute universal background checks for all purchasers of firearms.

I don’t expect the religious leaders to be familiar with the fact that gun control laws don’t stop – or even slow down – spree killers. Or how limiting magazine capacity favors mass murderers rather than defenders of innocent life (which include the police with their “high capacity” magazines). Or the fact that many spree killers (e.g. Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho) passed background checks, or avoided them entirely (Adam Lanza shot his mother to take her guns).

But I would expect them to do enough research to know that spree killing isn’t the main problem constituting “gun violence” in the U.S. It’s firearms-related suicides, which account for nearly half of all firearms-related homicides. And criminal assault. Both of which would seem amenable to a religion-based resolution calling for a moral initiative.

Instead, Resolution 7 ends with a message from the Episcopal Church Office of Public Affairs:

“As an Episcopalian committed in baptism to seeking justice and peace and promoting the dignity of every human being, I commit to being part of the solution to the violence in our culture that claims the lives of 2000 innocent children through gun crimes each year. I commit to the pursuit of laws that keep guns out of the hands of criminals, prioritize the needs of at-risk children, provide care for those suffering mental illness, and address the many ways in which our culture trivializes violence. I commit to holding my lawmakers, my community, and my own household accountable”.

Define “children” (the stat cited includes teenage gang-bangers). Define “innocent children” (same again). Define “violence in our culture.” Specify which laws you favor to “keep guns out of the hands of children.” Engage in a proper debate instead of resorting to homogenous homily.

Or not. Organized religion should offer moral guidance to its adherents, not political policy statements. In this view I am not alone.

“The people in my congregation don’t want to hear a social gospel,” [Rev. Steven Kelly, rector of St. John’s Episcopal Church] said. “They want to hear about grace and forgiveness and salvation, so they can go out and do the right things, rather than have something new foisted upon them every week.” . . .

“Passing an inherently political resolution … does absolutely nothing to proclaim the glory of God and bring new people to the pews of churches,” [Dennis Lennox, a member of St. John’s Episcopal Church in Detroit] said. “I wish churches … would focus on being a house of prayer for all people, instead of becoming extensions of political movements and parties.”

Some do, Mr. Lennox, some don’t. And the ones who do are losing congregants and power. God bless our gun rights and God bless the free market.

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    • In this case, yes. Take away their non profit status. They have absolutely no right and no business taking a position on government policies.

      • Churches and religious organizations have every right to take a position on government policies, just the same as gun rights groups do, animal activists do, etc.

        • If they want to “ban violence” in their own congregations, if they want to tell their parishioners what to do or what not to do, what’s good or what’s bad for them, then go ahead. I have no problem with that. But I don’t think that’s what they’re doing here. They’re making observations about government policies as if they wanted to apply their beliefs and new restrictions to the public at large. That’s a no-no for me. They can feed whatever nonsense they want to the people who choose to be part of their church. They should keep their collective noses out of everybody else’s lives.

      • Say what?

        I disagree 100% with the position being put forward by the Episcopal Church, but they have every right to hold – and to proclaim – that position.

        Is the First Amendment really that difficult to read and to understand?

      • I can’t say that I agree with you, there, V V Ind. No where in the Constitution will you find the words “separation of church and state.” What you will find is this: “Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.” Nope, no “separation of church and state” there. What it does say, though, is that Congress CANNOT PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION. I hate to shout, but it seems that’s the only way to get religion bigots to listen. Just because someone professes a belief in Christ doesn’t mean he must check his 1st Amendment rights at the door. Pastors and preachers, and the faithful in general, have every right, EVERY RIGHT, to preach against what they perceive as political evil or a perversion of their faith by government edict or political chicanery. Just because this particular group in this particular denomination has decided to attempt to restrict your 2nd Amendment rights doesn’t mean that you should be so willing to take away their 1st and 9th Amendment rights. Restricting the exercise of one right in order to attempt to save another, is simply throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    • “Separation of church and state” is an idea that many people horribly misconstrue.

      The original intent behind it was to keep the state out of religion; NOT to keep religion out of the state.

      For example, there are many, many, many elected politicians with very strong religious beliefs. Those religious beliefs guide their lives, including their decisions about what bills to support or fight against. Religion is ingrained in our political system.

      Churches and religious groups also campaign for legislation that they support; often protecting the right to life of the unborn, protecting the sanctity of traditional marriage, etc.

      Just as gun rights groups campaign for legislation that expand gun rights, or any other group may campaign for legislation that they support. Churches and religious groups are no different in this respect, either.

      • The original purpose of the Second Amendment was to prevent the establishment of official church not ban religion or atheism from the public square.

      • Dear Mr. Patriot,

        Here’s the thing, when the church gets into politics, the government (through the people they elect) get into religion, or have you missed the attempts by individuals in state governments like Alabama to make the Bible the official state book. Or attempts by school officials in conservative states to litterally make students a captive audience for a religiously based abstinence only sex ed program. I endorse keeping churches out of politics so that the kind of feedback loop I just spoke of, doesn’t begin.

        • Like the other amendments in the Bill of Rights, the First Amendment is meant to counterbalance the Federal Government. The pulpit gets to speak out about government from a religious, moral and spiritual basis and their leadership gives people another authority.

          The First Amendment also protects free speech, even speech wanting biblical based laws. Let people talk about it in the open. We should want diverse groups and opinions to speak up.

          I agree with others that the amendment plainly says the government has to stay out of religion, not the other way around.

        • Well, Gryhounnd, I’m afraid you’re a little late on your “feedback loop” idea. It seems the founding fathers included religion and religious faith in the bedrock documents of this country a little more than couple of centuries ago, so I think that ship has sailed. The founders never meant for religion to be kept out of politics, they meant for politics to be kept out of religion. There is a great difference between the two. Unfortunately, I don’t think you will ever be able to see it. Your blindness on this fundamental issue is no different than you being so clueless as to how anti-gun politicians can read “shall not be infringed” and not seem to get it. You have a closed mind that will not allow for the truth to enter. Religion and Christianity were embedded in this Country’s bedrock documents in the very beginning. Trying to extricate it now because some think they have somehow “outgrown” their Maker and his word, would be tantamount to attempting to strip out one side of the double helix that makes up the DNA of this Country; it may be possible, but it would leave the patient dead. This fact is being daily proven in the headlines that make up today’s news.
          If the essence of God is stripped out of our Constitution, then I can’t say that I much care if the 2nd Amendment remains. What good is the defense of the body, if the soul is already dead?

        • @Hill Country, that’s close, but not quite there. The Bill of Rights doesn’t counter-balance the federal government, it constrains it. It’s a non-exclusive list of negatives intended to restrict federal encroachment. It’s was not intended as a positive list conferring rights. Just to make that clear, they included the 9th and 10th Amendments to document – not grant – individual and State liberty.

          As far as the general issue is concerned, social and moral issues are absolutely within the purview of religion. That it may be, or has become, a political or national policy issue does not change that in the least. In this specific case, regardless how misguided and even flat-out wrong they are, the 1st Amendment exists to protect their right to say it. It doesn’t prohibit their participation in the public dialogue.

  1. Chewing gum. The consumption thereof normally isnt connected with the word ‘loud’, yet the bounds of normality at best seemed to apply only rarely to this church.

    Snap. Snap . Snap.

    “Today in the house of the Lord, I need everyone to raise a hand for (POLITICIAN REDACTED).”

    The content of the speech resembled spam; tired, traditional, and forgettable. At the conclusion the pastor returned to the pulpit and exclaimed with suspicously exciting animation “As African Americans, we need to be politically active and vote for candidates who can do something about the gang violence and gun violence in our community…”

    90 days later, the pastor was divorced amid accusations of having affairs with the women in the congregation, and the politician he invited was charged with embezzlement. Such is what passes for ‘normal’ in Chicago….

    • The church that Mr. Lennox attends, very “right of center”, is also not gaining members. It’s the way organized religion is going.

  2. This is nothing new. And they sure don’t preach that garbage in the very large Baptist church we attend in NW Indiana. Just in the apostate denominations of Christianity. And a large % of black churches. And something you would know more than me RF-liberal Judaism.

      • To answer your inane comment:
        Apostasy is “the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.” Which. Y’know. Many of these denominations are actively doing. Denying Christ’s Divinity, for example, by saying he was just a good teacher, or saying that he is but one path to heaven when (according to the book they claim to believe) He is the only way to heaven. At best they are misguided illiterate idiots and at worst they are self serving wolves in sheep’s clothing.

        Most “unitarian” and far left churches only believe excerpts from the Bible, and aren’t all that different from groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc, who believe their new and different interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. Liberal denominations just use the Democratic voting platform as their “guide book” for what parts of the Bible they believe. Baptists still believe the majority of their bible without having to use a party platform to tell them which parts to believe. They don’t have to declare other denominations apostate. Anyone who has actually read the Bible could do that.

        Quit being a troll. You’re not clever and you are adding nothing to the discussion.

        • Great reply De Facto. I pronounced certain churches apostate(or heretical). Not the Baptists. The biggest difference between genuine jihadists and born-again bible believing Christians I’M not going to cut your head off.

  3. i dont genuinely and fully understand if or quite how the right to armed self defense is compatible with a biblical world view. but i keep believing God, i keep praying, and i keep carrying and training.

    • Hey John I have no such dilemma. See 1 Timothy 5:8. I am commanded to provide for my family. THAT includes protection of my own. If other so-called Christians don’t believe that it’s OK by me. Maybe I’m not “saved” enough. Just don’t go to war or have car/home/life insurance or call the PO-leece when thugs invade your abode. I can assure you what you do is a GOOD THING.

    • Hey John see 1 Timothy 5:8. I am commanded to provide for my family. That includes protecting them to the death. If others disagree that’s OK. I guess I’m not SAVED enough. Just don’t ask the cops or military to kill in your name.

  4. Useful tip I learned from a therapist- when you hear the word BUT in a sentence, ignore everything that came before and listen closely to what follows. ie “Behold the Underlying Truth.

    For example, I believe in God, BUT,
    more evil has been done by man in organized religion, in the name of God, than any other force.

    This is just one of the more mendaciously stupid examples.
    No surprise its in uber liberal Wisconsin, and released just before the election of Governor.

    BTW, this will be an interesting one to watch final results.
    I expect the Corruptocrats and Union thugs to pull every dirty voter fraud trick.
    Including enlisting the fraudsters in the collar.

    • That’s wise and useful advice. Typically the post-but dependent clause is not some narrowly construed carve out constituting a true exception to the rule or a unique application of it. It’s usually so all encompassing and indicting as to contradict to the point of nullification everything that came before it.

      The pre-but independent clause often serves a prefatory, blow softening, euphemism-enabling purpose. “I support the Second Amendment, but [here’s a hundred gun grabbing, freedom snatching proposals you wouldn’t even consider if you knew up front that I’m a statist monster].” The “but” just covers the butt.

      Only thing I would disagree with in the sample argument some people make, is the amount of evil perpetrated by which institutions. Government wins that craven contest hands down.

  5. How about a ban on tax exempt status for churches? If they want to be political lobbying groups, then let them pay federal income tax, state income tax, and subject them to premiums for unemployment insurance. Let’s ban their immunity, or capped damages, for tort liability. Let’s ban churches outright that participate in politics while displaying a clear bias. This is already illegal, so how about we start enforcing it?

    Be careful what you wish for in advocating greater government power, church leaders, as that always comes at the expense of citizens and community organizations.

    • I agree with your thoughts, but remember Illegal immigration is illegal too, and you know how that’s going!
      It’s going so well my state will be voting whether or not to give illegal immigrants a drivers license!
      Maybe next year we will let them hold office and vote!

      • No, sir, not exactly. Churches and the NRA are both nonprofits, but different kinds.

        No organization may qualify for 501(c)(3) status (which includes churches) if a substantial (perhaps more than 20%) part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (lobbying). A 501(c)(3) may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax exempt status. They may not engage in political activity, endorse/oppose candidates, or donate time or money to political campaigns. Donor contributions to these organizations ARE tax deductible for the donor.

        A 501(c)(4) organization, such as the NRA, can engage in unlimited lobbying, so long as it pertains to its mission. Donor contributions to these organizations ARE NOT tax deductible for the donor. Income to both 3 & 4 type organizations is tax exempt for federal income taxes.

        Now, the NRA does have separate subsidiaries that focus strictly on education/outreach/charity activities (think Eddie the Eagle), which are legally separate entities and contributions to them are tax deductible for you because they’re 501(c)(3) organizations. That’s distinct from the main NRA political organization, though.

        As always, consult your own qualified attorney and/accountant, as I am neither.

  6. so what else is new? for those too weak to think for themselves, that is the churchs job. Until, like in every other facet, facts force it to redact as it has in every other way in which it was used to provide “answers”.

  7. I was born an Episcopalian.

    As a result of a takeover by social progressives, and their ‘re-envisioning’ of Christianity along activist social & political policies, the Episcopal Church has shrunk into obscurity. They’ve driven traditional (i.e. ‘Biblical’) Episcopalians away. The average Episcopalian is now in their 60’s, young families have largely abandoned the Episcopalian Church, overall membership continues to shrink year after year, and its Church leadership has chosen to fund political lobbyists over youth programs.

    They are, however, great at passing resolutions that will have the same impact as a fart in the wind. Initially smelly, with an impact on those close to them, but quickly dissipating into nothingness. The Episcopal Church is meaningless and irrelevant to modern America – and will shortly fade away to nothing.

    • Not a church going person, but have some experience with local Episcopalian split- same- the liberal group is shrinking and old, and not attracting new families, despite being nice people and all. The conservative group is thriving. Go figure.

    • +1.

      The decline of the mainline (non-evangelical) protestant denominations in the US is a sad but interesting story. Once you deny Jesus is the son of God, deny hell, claim everybody from all religions goes to heaven, etc etc – what is the point any more? All you have remaining is a left-wing “social justice” group, and who wants to get up early on Sunday morning for that? The pews thus get emptier and emptier.

      • I got into a religious discussion with a local Lutheran minister here in Wyoming. I was shocked to discover within about five minutes that I knew more about the Bible, scripture and history of same than said minister.

        It should be made quite clear here that I am not a man who spends much time studying or reading the Bible, and I’m not one to quote said Good Book more than once every blue moon. When other people are in the pews, I’m on a shooting range on Sundays.

        My wife had been asking if I would be interested in joining a church. After that episode, I said “nope.” When even a heathen such as I can quote more of the Bible than the guy in the pulpit, there’s no point in listening to him, much less putting money in his plate.

        • Shoot, it’s a good thing every pastor is a mirror image of the one you met and ever church everywhere is led by similar people. Good choices there…

          I shy away from churches that have to come up with a name for themselves to define to others which parts of the Bible they believe. I call em buffet Christians. “I’ll take this and this, but not this.”

          Find a good simple Christian church, if you don’t like it, try another. If they offend you, maybe the problem is you…not them.

        • A lot of Christians tend to be kind of down on denominations, and sort of think “why can’t we just get along.” But they serve a very useful purpose.

          As someone of a Presbyterian/Reformed persuasion, if I am in a new town, I can be pretty confident a Presbyterian church from the OPC, PCA, or ARP denominations is solid. While a PCUSA church very likely would agree with the Episcopals referenced in this post.

          I’m not familiar enough with the Episcopal church to provide any details, but I know some American Episcopal churches have tried to put themselves under the authority of African bishops who take the bible seriously. Not sure how you know which churches those are, though.

      • Well now, you’re a special kind of… special, aren’t you?

        You do realize that the Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church are two entirely separate entities? Or maybe you don’t, and you just enjoy talking out of your rear-end to disparage all Christians?

        • Well, if the shoe fits… But I would like to see you defend all the sexual child abuse that goes on in the church, in general, Mr. Smug.

  8. Of course TTAG finds a daily story to reinforce the official version of the sandy Hook story. Daily event here. Probably how the site keeps it advertising base.

  9. Preaching politics on the pulpit is why I no longer attend Sunday mass. In the Catholic church the Bishops and Cardinals and others seem to want to tow to the politicians versus preach from the Bible to point of making a point to come to a mass simply to endorse a candidate. Politics and the churches have become so intertwined it is hard to tell preacher from politicians.

    In many states churches are trying to get voting on Sunday so they can give election day campaign sermons on the pulpit then pack their flock into buses to take them to the voting booth to vote based on their sermon.

    Yet, they want to remain to be separate from the state.

    BS like this is why many like myself will not return to organized religion. My brother has gone so far as to not even have his new son baptized. I guess they will finally be happy when the pews are completely empty.

  10. It amuses me that these self-identified possessors of a perfect “moral compass” seek to establish in their own minds their righteousness …by resolving that a government armed to the teeth ought to forbid its citizens ownership of ordinary patrol rifles. Governments never turn on their own people. Oh, but wait: My paternal ancestors fled England because the Episcopal (Anglican Communion) Church was OK with the practice of hanging, drawing, and quartering religious dissenters….such as my family. This time they realize they need to grab the guns first. Smart. But no.

    I would be impressed if, instead, the Michigan Diocese devoted their time and money to the provision of educational and social services to the most hard-bitten blood-stained ghetto neighborhoods of their home state, Michigan. Flint, Troy, and Detroit alone should keep the Michigan Diocese busy and broke. “They can’t even run their own lives (state), I’ll be damned if they’ll run mine.”

    • I’ve always been amused by the Episcopal Church. They seem to want all the trappings of the Catholic Church, only without a pope. Yea, that’s real Protestantism right there.

      They’ve been trending leftwards since the late 60’s. They’re up to their necks in the “ecumenical movement” and pounding the pulpit for “social” issues.

  11. I attended a friend’s wedding that was being held in an Episcopal church building, and I read some of the literature in the racks at the back of the church. They apparently saw the problem as “thinking people don’t pray, and praying people don’t think.” In their zeal to solve this “problem”, they have evidently managed to create a church where people neither think nor pray.

  12. “And the ones who do [become extensions of political movements and parties] are losing congregants and power.” – RF

    They have lost congregants, but won the culture. Guns and abortion are the only two culture war issues of the last 50 years that the Left hasn’t gained ground on. Progressivism began in this country as Puritanism, and survives mostly as a Jesus-less Puritanism.

  13. Our EV free church has two dozen security personnel. More than half of them qualify 4x per year with handguns on a course similar to what the Secret Service uses. The make, model, and serial numbers of our weapons are listed in the church insurance policy. I’m currently qualified on 3 different guns, but there is no limit (other than being 9mm / .357 / .40 / .45 cal). All members have training in control holds, handcuffing, and applicable laws.

    On duty security personnel have designated ID, dedicated radios, master keys, approved safety gear, and “don’t shoot me” security banners approved by the local police department. We hire a police officer part time for traffic control. Ushers and parking assistant can call us to report suspicious activities.

    If an active shooter would enter our campus, they’d encounter armed resistance pretty fast. On worship Sundays we have no less than 4 armed team members in dedicated positions with an additional 2 unarmed roving members. Off-duty security personnel with CCW permits report to the team leader for additional coverage.

    All armed personnel have had active shooter, scenario, and videotaped force on force training with performance critiques and shot timing.

    The sad thing is that anti-gun churches don’t realize that they are soft targets. Our church certainly isn’t invincible, but it has some of the best security I’ve seen while maintaining freedom. There are Christians who understand combat – but they ain’t Episcopalians.

  14. Ooooooooh, the big, bad, episcopal diocese of Michigan, huh? Is that like, 5 people? And they’re really mad this time…

  15. Suggestion for TTAG -ers in Michigan: Send a letter to any Episcopal church in your area, praising them on their new gun ban policy, and offer to accept any firearms that their congregations want to dispose of “safely”. Offer a $50 gift card from WalMart or wherever, and promise to dispose of the gun in a “safe and legal manner.” You could mention that “one possibility might be to weld it into an anti-violence art piece”, or some other leftist dream, but do not promise anything specific. Might be a good way to get a gun for $50.

    And putting the gun into your collection is “a safe and legal manner of disposal”.

    dis·pos·al (d-spzl) n.
    1. A particular order, distribution, or placement: “a pleasing disposal of plants and lawn”.
    2. A particular method of attending to or settling matters.
    3. Transference by gift or sale.
    4. The act or process of getting rid of something.
    5. An electric device installed below a sink that grinds garbage so it can be flushed away.
    6. The liberty or power to dispose of: “funds at our disposal”.

    • HA! What a great idea Pete. I’m thinking they would want those evil guns destroyed though. It’s worth a try 🙂

  16. Can someone please explain to me how a church founded, essentially, because of a political dispute between the Pope and the King of England has any authority at all on moral issues?

    • The Episcopal church, if I’m not mistaken, was one of the most significant ante-bellum slave-owning institutions in the country. As in, the church actually ‘owned’ other human beings.

  17. firearms-related suicides, which account for nearly half of all firearms-related homicides

    Actually, suicides account for nearly two-thirds of firearms related deaths. Our friends at the CDC show 11,068 homicides by firearms and 19,990 suicides by firearms in 2011. That ratio seems fairly consistent over the years.

    Homicide is usually defined as the killing of one person by another, whether accidental, intentional, justified or otherwise. Since suicide is the intentional killing of oneself and not another, it is not technically a homicide.

    • Very much agree.
      Not everyone considers suicide a bad thing, particularly if it can be accomplished in a manner that does not negatively impact others any more than it need to.
      Intentionally killing someone else who doesn’t want to die is a whole different class of action and it irritates me that suicides by any method are present in the same light as homicide.

    • The Anglican Communion were leaders in decriminalizing suicide. But they goofed: Looking back they now wish they had pushed to decriminalize any suicide not committed with the use of a firearm. What chimps.

      In my father’s line we were Society of Friends, aka Quakers, for nine generations. Then my grandfather moved to the Episcopal church because he tired of the PC no-booze no-stopping-the-huns BS. Well, that didn’t work out so well. Two generations later the thrill is gone.

  18. It never ceases to amaze me that some people can think that 9mm hollow points are somehow more powerful than the rounds intended to humanely drop a 1500lb animal at 200 yards with a single shot.

    • Yeah, like a 520-grain cast lead round nose out of a Sharps single-shot black powder cartridge rifle. No follow-up shot needed.

  19. As a Christian only, but not the only kind of Christian, I can’t stand when religion is used to justify persuasion of the government to enact your political goals for welfare, financial policy, taxation, or any other issue. Government should protect life, liberty, and property, and do precious little else. I’m not a separation of church/state guy either, as it’s not a constitutional position, and not found there, but religion is in the business of improving individuals, not petitioning government. If they (we) would succeed more there, we would have no need for an intrusive bureaucratic government.

  20. I will never understand people who will proudly and loudly take a political position that if it becomes law it will assuredly lead to their permanent demise.

  21. “…promoting the dignity of every human being…”

    Don’t we promote the dignity of a human being by giving them the ability to defend themselves? Not to be dependent on the police who are just (minutes, hours, days) away?

    The problem is we do too much that DESTROYS people’s dignity.

    Ask not what your country can do for you, or what you can do for your county, but what you should do for yourself!

  22. “As regular readers know, anyone who starts a sentence, “We support the U.S. Constitution’s protections of the rights of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms but . . .” is working to degrade and destroy Americans’ natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms.”

    What if I end that sentence with: “we don’t think our alleged “friends” in the Republican party are really keeping their oath of office”? 😛

  23. Some members here may be members of the Episcopal church, so be careful of disparaging one religion over another. That is unless you are in fact God, and are qualified to determine which sects of Christianity are more valid than another.

    Episcopalians do have some good points, chief among them being that they are big enough to have both conservative and progressive churches. One of the primary tenets of the Episcopal faith is that of the Great Commandment, namely to love God and love your neighbor as yourself, and let all other commandments be seen through that lens.

    It appears to me that the Episcopal Church’s heart is in the right place, while their advisement may have been lacking. Their 3 main points were as follows:

    1. Requiring and enforcing universal background checks on all gun sales;

    2. A clear ban on all future sales of military-style semi-automatic weapons, high-capacity ammunition magazines and high-impact ammunition (i.e. ammunition more deadly than ordinarily used in hunting);

    3. Making gun trafficking a Federal crime;

    We should applaud these goals in the abstract in my opinion, but there are some questions & statements that should be made or acknowledged.

    1. This is a goal, and neither side will ever be conmpletely satisfied that it is being done properly. You either will infringe on too many personal liberties, or it won’t be effective enough. I challenge someone here to come up with a good middle ground. Lord knows I can’t do it.

    2, They obviously had plenty of pro-gun control people on the committee, but few if any pro-gun people. If they did, as people here will quickly point out. 1 pull, 1 shot, all semi-automatic guns will make you just as dead, how scary the gun looks has little actual bearing on the matter. High capacity magazines have little impact on firearms proficiency, a practiced shooter will be just as proficient with 10 rounds as with 30. As someone here already pointed out, taking away ammunition will harm as many people trying to defend themselves as anything else.

    3. Gun Trafficking is already a federal crime.

    To me, this is a well intentioned document that wasn’t well thought out or well advised.

  24. ISIS (not ISIL, unlike the president I don’t lump in the Levant to provoke both Israel and ISIS) is coming.
    ARM-UP, defend yourself and yours, ignore the screams of the ignorant being crucified and beheaded as long as you can, wait for a sign from your God as long as you can, then, just do what you think is right.

  25. People still attend the Episcopal Church? I had a Methodist Minister proclaim that Christians cannot have guns so I left the church.

  26. Maybe if us evil, horrible Christians start supporting gun control, then the Left will return gun rights to the way they used to be just to “spite” us… Because that really seems like their only purpose, as if the only reason they are so obsessed with “progress” (Which, by the way, does NOT mean changing everything) is to make Conservatives mad…

  27. After Georgia passed HB60, in which churches were finally given the right to allow guns, my Episcopal church was the only one in the state that did not have the decision made for them by the two bishops of the two dioceses in Georgia. My church is on the Tennessee line, so it is controlled by the Diocese of East Tennessee. The Bishop gave the vestry the chance to make their own decision. They still unanimously voted to ban guns. I suspect he would have stepped in if they had made the “wrong” decision, but it was still disappointing. I haven’t been back.


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