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Devin Patrick Kelley murdered 27 and wounded at least another 20 in his attack on the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs yesterday. He started shooting from outside the church, then moved inside to continue the mass murder. But as numerous media reports and the so-far official account provided yesterday make clear, a neighbor got his own gun and challenged Kelley as he exited the building.

Stephen Willeford, who lives near the Texas church targeted yesterday, grabbed his own rifle and rushed to confront Devin Kelley after his daughter told him an attack was underway.

As the 55-year-old arrived outside the church he came face-to-face with Kelley.

At which point Willeford — a lawful firearm owner, exactly the type of good guy with a gun that Wayne LaPierre referred to after Newtown — pulled the trigger.

Willeford, a local plumber with no military experience, is however an excellent shot according to the resident, and when he came face to face with Kelley, he shot in between his body armor, hitting him in his side.

The 26-year-old dropped his Ruger assault rifle and climbed in an SUV to flee the scene.

As an aside, it’s probably worth noting that in virtually every previous case of a shooter reportedly wearing “body armor” (think James Holmes in Aurora) subsequent reports made it clear that it wasn’t in fact, body armor. It was load-bearing equipment. We’ll see if that holds true in this case. But back to our story . . .

As is usually the case, Willeford, an average citizen, was the first responder.

No one knows what else Kelley many have planned to do after he left the church. Or how many more people he might have killed. Thanks to Willeford and another local, Johnnie Langendorff, we never will. You can be sure, however, that Kelley wasn’t planning to melt quietly back into the local terrain.

After the wounded Kelley took off in his SUV, Willeford and Langendorff followed him at high speed while talking to a 911 operator.

Mr Langendorff said the gunman eventually lost control of his vehicle and crashed. He said the other civilian walked up to the vehicle with his gun drawn and the suspect did not move. He stood guard over the gunman until police arrived 5 to 7 minutes later.

Devin Patrick Kelley's SUV

According to Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt, Kelley killed himself after running off the road.

The action of an ordinary armed American will likely get precious little play in the mainstream media in the days and weeks ahead, as all the usual suspects jump on their well-worn soap boxes to proclaim that the Sutherland Springs massacre demonstrates the need for more gun control laws gun violence prevention efforts.

Never mind that Kelley was a prohibited person who couldn’t legally own the firearm he used to commit mass murder.

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    • I’ll bet that the hero probably had an AR/AK/Mini14 etc.

      I’m curious to find out.

      The media has pointed out that the murderer used an AR. The good guy likely had something similar.

        • SamW its just that no one is interested, its boring details except to gun-nuts like yall, other folks want to know did you shoot one at a time or spray it, or shotgun or pistol or rifle or war gun etc

        • Re: “Crazy Racist Paste Eater”, WTF is a ‘war gun’? I’m sure you’re enlighted enough to give us all a lecture since you envision yourself (and your other screennames) to be vastly superior to us troglodytes on this forum…

      • Steve DID have his own AR-15 (that he built himself), and the perp DID have body armor on. I know Steve personally and heard the whole story directly from him.

    • An AR of some flavor. Says he was loading a handful of loose rounds into the mag as he ran ,barefooted, towards the sound of gunfire and didn’t know how many rounds he had when he lit up the dirt bag. Keep some loaded magazines handy boys and girls. Saves time and maybe lives. This guy is something.

  1. I think this is evidence that the AP qualities of your rifle and ammo are starting to become more important because of the proliferation of armor. A lot of folks would (and do) of course respond that they’d just make head shots. Yeah, maybe. This guy got lucky in that his round went through the gaps (or maybe just penetrated the armor after all). I imagine that it is most likely the psycho on only had AR-500 so a lot of combinations could have holed it.

    • We still don’t know if he actually had “body armor” or if it was just a load bearing vest for extra magazines…..

        • Most likely: LBE mis-labeled (as always) as “body armor”

          2nd most likely scenario: dude had a bullet-proof vest any rifle round over .22LR will sail right through anyway

          conspiracy-theory-level scenario: dude actually had AR500 or ceramic plates in a plate carrier. And it didn’t help.

        • However, all the psycho need to purchase level III AR500 plate would have been about what $300? That doesn’t seem like much of a hurdle for a guy who is trying to go out in a blaze of infamy.

    • Well the real solution to criminals in armor is to just shoot them a few times center mass, then headshot them when they getting shot in armor still hurts like a bitch.

      • I haven’t felt it myself but from the accounts I have read and a modest knowledge of momentum, I doubt that smaller calibers cause any pain through a hard plate that doesn’t suffer massive back deforemation. The shooter is taking the same amount of momentum through the smaller contact area of the rifle butt and it is not hurting him. Rifle plates have a large contact area and usually weigh about the same as an MSR so one might not even notice they were hit in all the excitement.

        • The recoil impulse is not equivalent to the impact impulse. The recoil is mitigated by the gradual acceleration of the bullet and they action of semi-auto firearms. In an impact event, the energy is transferred almost instantaneously. It’s the same reason why you don’t feel much as you car goes from 0 to 60 when you slam the accelerator, but are probably going to die when you run into a brick wall at 60mph going from 60 to 0 in a fraction of a second.

        • Gradual? An M163 is in a 16″ barrel less than 8 milliseconds. Most any .223 isn’t going to move a 7lb plate very fast at all in the exchange. The plate usually masses between 750 -900 times more than the bullet. I am sure there are a few people here who have taken a small arms hit with ceramic on, may they or you could relate their experience. I have heard folks say they didn’t even notice until they inspected their plates after.

        • Isn’t the energy transferred force/time or something like that? Dividing by 8 m/s vs by 1m/s probably makes a difference in feel when dealing with 1,200 ft/lbs. Plus likely AR500 is gonna deform, who knows if a guy living in an rv, paying child support, with a BC discharge, working waterpark security can afford full ceramic or trauma plates.

          I’ve lost track of my point, good on these 2 men for stepping up and stopping the threat before he could hurt more people.

      • Your method also require several hits. I am not sure that would be sufficiently easy for most of us. I think I would have trouble making a head shot on somebody moving and or shooting at me and I practice a lot more than most people.

        • The big difference is the impulse duration of the impact. A hit to even a hard plate will knock you on your ass. See my example of the difference between going 0 to 60 and 60 to 0 above.

        • I was kind of hoping that you had direct experience (I am being sincere) and I would have accepted that experience as sufficient evidence that I was wrong. I posit that it is best to rely on an actual experience (1st or 3rd person) with the event. If someone says an intermediate cartridge bullet against armor that didn’t deform a lot knocked them over or stunned (physically not psychologically) them into inaction I will believe that.

        • I’ve been shot three times in my lifetime. Only once was I able to take it on my plate. (The other two were ricochets, so I’m not sure if they count.) It was a .45ACP round that some dipshit launched along the firing line. The impact knocked me on my ass. You have to remember that impact event durations are measured in micro or nano seconds. 8 milliseconds is a huge time in comparison.

        • Being that your body is elastic (and to a small extent the armor is too) and that the speed the plate could be accelerated to is very small, I’d guess that the the bullet launching and interaction with your body would be longer than than the acceleration out of the barrel. The armor is converting a high energy impact on itself into a very low energy hit on you. With out the knowledge to calculate the likely time of interaction this is of course somewhat of a swag on my part. I do not mean to be rude or accuse you of intentionally being an unreliable witness but I find it hard to believe a .45 impact to your armor could have knocked you over the momentum is insufficient it is only about 32lb-ft/s. Do you think 1lb ball at 21mph could knock you over? Does shooting a .45 ever knock you over? I suppose maybe if you were already off balance it might.

        • Yeah, I’m with you on the 45 ACP – ‘knocked off balance’ != ‘knocked on ass’.

          Near the other end of the spectrum, you’ve probably already seen this video of a serviceman surviving a substantial sniper hit in the plate that I’d call a ‘knocked on ass’ situation:

        • I make occassional head shots on FPS and it echos “HEADSHOT!”, does Gods voice do that in real life headshots?

        • Shot in the leg while standing. 45 acp jhp, through and through. Felt like someone jerked on my leg. Friend of mine was hit in the chest with a similar round, told me afterwords that it was like getting hit with a baseball.

        • For some reason it would not let me edit my comment above. To be clear when my partner was shot he was wearing a vest with trauma plates. It did crack the trauma plate and he told me afterwards that it felt like he had been hit with a baseball. This is also almost 20 years ago I imagine the technology has improved some since then

      • No sir, there are many plates that are effective at stopping rifle rounds. We have highlighted a few at TTAG, including some budget plates that stopped a .375H&H Magnum SP round at 25 yards.

        • I don’t know a great deal about the latest in rifle resistant body armor. How much does it impede the wear’s speed and ability to maneuver? I am sure it is much improved over the the type of the armor used by German machine gunners in WWI and U.S. B17 and B29 crews in WWII, I just don’t how much.

        • robby, if they are quality plates, and not just a big hunk of coated steel (like AR500) then they will impede movement very little and add little weight. Plates and a carrier that will stop just about anything in common use will be less than 16lbs total and double curved to hug the body. They do form a bit of a vapor barrier, and have a high R value, so they do heat you up quickly.

        • Not being sarcastic. Have any suggestions for plan B??
          It sounds like my plan A ,( 30-06 AP) is obsolete!
          Things were easier back when a BAR with 20rds of AP could handle most stuff,
          not to mention back when I could hump, a BAR farther than across the living room.


        • robby, I’ve shot the BAR quite a bit, and the man that still continues to teach me more than any modern instructor ever has was a former BARtender. The BAR has, and will still, solve any problem you might have. You just need a friend to carry the ammo.

          The solution is still the same. Shoot center mass. Continue to fire. Then move in and continue to fire. Fire until there is no longer a threat.

        • Thanks, for the information,
          Sounds like I need to stop ignoring modernity, or I could get some unpleasant surprises.
          Thanks again

      • My class IV plates would beg to differ. Anything that can penetrate them is better classified as artillery than a firearm.

        • One of the more impressive displays I’ve seen is the RMA level IV plate, a 4lb plate, take 3 .30-06 AP rounds dead on, at 10 feet, all in the exact same spot. The 3d round had a tiny bit of penetration, just the tip, through the back side. Impressive.

      • Sounds like the confusion here may stem from loose language. Sometimes people mistakenly use the terms body armor and bullet resistant (or worse, bullet proof) vest interchangeably.

    • LEO said he was wearing ballistic armor with a plate in the front.
      A 5.56 round will penetrate almost all body armor with no plate, and the sides are always vulnerable.

      I’m no fan of citizens owning AP because that leaves LEOs wide open to attack. Few bad guys wear armor, and fewer still wear plates.

      • True, but the cartels are catching up with bodyarmor. It’s not just for their heavy hitters anymore.

        Before I ETS’d from in ’09 at Ft. Carson, IBA & plates left unattended & visible in a soldier’s POV off-post pretty much guaranteed theft.

        I had one sham-shield E-4 leave his IBA vest & waterwings in the backseat after Sgt’s Time training, with ESAPI plates seperate in the trunk. The IBA was poking out from under his goretex parka, promask, & ruck, and he even left his iPhone & pod sitting on the center console.

        Whoever spotted the IBA left everything else, and popped the trunk just to get the plates. In Colorado Springs at least, street thieves, tweakers, & gang S4 specialists know what to look for.

        • The same happened on the regular postwide, to the point where our S4 warrant lost his hair, Battalion CSM made storing TA50 in personal vehicles his personal peeve, provost enriched our lives by adding multiple PowerPoint slides to enlisted FNG briefings, and made many junior NCOs adept at counselling statements, statements-of-charges, and “essay evaluation”.

    • Steve actually him him in two places, in the side between the armor plates, and once in the neck just below the rim of the helmet he was wearing. The neck wound wasn’t mentioned as a contributing factor in his death because it wasn’t visible after the bad guy blew his own head off with a .12 gauge shotgun.

    • Churches in Texas are no longer designated by law by default as gun-free zones. However, as with any other private property owner, they may prohibit firearm on their own.

      I’ve looked up the church’s By Law document on their website. It primarily addresses the organization as a whole and doesn’t mention weapons. It does refer to a separate and more detailed “Policies and Procedures” document, but that is only available via hard copy, in person, and only to chuch members.

      I would guess it was probably not a gun-free zone officially. As a practical matter, it’s a reasonable assumption on the killer’s part that worshipers would be unarmed.

      • Isn’t that why the guy shot into the church from the outside – to determine if anyone in the church had a firearm and would shoot back?

  2. Mad respect for both Mr. Willeford and Mr. Langendorff.
    “The citizen clearly explained the situation”….Holy Crap, Mr. Willeford must be one cool cucumber.
    Both of these guys just dispelled so many myths, and, I must say, added to the legend of Texas.

  3. “He stood guard over the gunman until police arrived 5 to 7 minutes later.”

    Why do the Lame Stream Media reports say that either he killed himself or the authorities killed him? Were the good guys invisible? Just askin’. 8>)

    • The local sheriff has said on radio interviews this morning that the gunman shot himself. This is not inconsistent with Mr. Langendorff’s account, in which he says they stood there overlooking the vehicle but did not approach it. The shooter likely shot himself, and then Mr. Willeford held the rifle on him a distance away until the police arrived, which is legally, as well as tactically, intelligent. Mr. Willeford performed exceptionally well.

      • The citizen shot him before he left the church grounds. No cops were present, neither was Langeford. But he still had a bullet hole which was not in his head. So, it still sounds to me like armed citizen intervention is being downplayed. Was that polite enough?

        OTOH, Guv Abbot made no bones about the citizen firing and hitting the perp.

    • It wouldn’t surprise me if the self inflicted wound wasn’t so “self” inflicted but just a cleaner narrative all around. No reliance on jury nullification which knowing Texas would have happened anyway!

  4. What was that?… defensive gun uses never happen.. there is no such thing as a “good guy with a gun”… armed citizens can’t stop mass murderers from killing more people?

    Off the top of my head I can name one case where a armed citizen stopped someone from killing more people without ever firing his gun. The Clackamas mall shooting.

    I’m sure there are other case as well but can’t remember them right now.

    • ACP_arms Im so sorry but there is no extant evidence for your fantasy that that CC pointing his gun stopped the shooter at Clackamas mall.

      In reality the shooters gun had already malfunctioned, thats what stopped the shooting.

      The CC acknowledges this.

      And the Sheriff of Clackamas county acklowledges this.

      So yet another example of lying gun-nuts making up bullsheet.

      To be fair to you, your similarly delusional version of events was reported on this site back in 2012, though they did at least report that the shooting stopped because the gun malfunctioned before inanely fantasizing that the CC somehow really stopped the shooter…

      And those other examples you claim exist but just dont happen to remember at the moment, you feel free to get back to me so I correct more of your bullsheet OK : D?

  5. The, unbiased, ever truthful, Omnipotent, virtuous, heroes, of the press/main stream media, refuse to, report or even acknowledge that a legally armed citizen, confronted, and wounded this murderous shit bag, causing him to drop his rifle and flee. They are however making sure to tell us, that the shit bag murder,
    killed himself. A lie by omission, is still a lie.
    Why would the MSM do such a thing? I wonder???

  6. Kelly was a ‘prohibited person’ twice over. Dishonorable discharge, and domestic violence conviction. Kelly illegally obtained firearms to carry out this attack, demonstrating once again that gun laws are meaningless to criminals and don’t deter crime.

    Thank god Mr. Willeford, a lawfully armed citizen, responded to the scene and took decisive action to end the threat.

    • No DD, it was a BCD, and I think a court martial (is that part of “any court?) found him guilty of assault, not certain there even is a charge of DV (as such) in a military court. Regardless, he bought one gun a year for 4 years, apparently all with BCs, if he was in fact a prohibited person and got away with all 4, let’s close down BCs as useless, and save the money and aggravation, incidentally the infringement as well.

  7. Gun free zone or not, most would believe they would not need to be armed in the house of the Lord. Sadly this is no longer the case.
    I believe many members of the church that day, reached for their pistols, then realizing, they had left them at home.
    Never again! I canhear them say, will I go out unarmed.
    It is difficult to be armed, sometimes uncomfortable. So many things to consider, where you are going, you must prevent anyone from knowing you are armed. Many places, if you go to, you must disarm. If you don’t disarm you will be in trouble if you are discovered.

    • A couple of months ago I was at my parents house for dinner on a Sunday night. I had gone to church that morning and still had my gun on me at dinner. When I was getting ready to leave a couple of my nieces tried to jump on my back. I told them that was a bad idea. When I told my mom why, she said “why would you need a gun at church?” My response: “of all the places I go, I can’t think of one where I might need it most.” I could see the light bulb click in her head. No doubt this event has helped cement that thought in.

    • Seems to me this is evidence that God hates Texas and is punishing them for their sins…

  8. “As is usually the case,”

    Got any data to back that up? It seems regular citizens are rarely the first on the scene or make a major impact on the outcomes of mass shootings. Most cases I can recall ended with them taking their own life or committing suicide by cop once confronted by law enforcement.

    I wish more armed citizens were stopping these guys sooner, but claiming this kind of response is “usually the case” is no-less “spin” than the kind of thing most news organizations put on these kind of things that TTAG is always complaining about.

    • “regular citizens” (I don’t know if they are irregular or not, and I don’t want to know) are almost always the first on the scene. A shootout just between law enforcement and a criminal, without any victim prior to or during that shootout, is very rare.

      • Got some data to back that up? What average citizen engaged the Vegas shooter, the Pulse Shooter, Aurora, Newtown, Virginia Tech, Columbine etc.? Some had unarmed people make ineffectual attempts to stop the shooters or off-duty cops or security personnel, but this is one of the first times a good guy with a gun made an meaningful impact that I’ve heard of. He may well have had little impact on the death toll given the shooter was already leaving the scene. I definitely commend the guy for counter-attacking. I’m not criticizing his efforts. Hell, for all we know the shooter may have hoped to hit another target after he left the church.

        My point is, do mass shooters usually get stopped by armed citizens that aren’t a form of security personnel? Not that I’ve ever seen evidence for. I sure wish that was the case more often and more quickly.

        • It looks like we are arguing two different things. My point, and I think what is RF’s point, is that the first person on the scene is almost never law enforcement. The first person on the scene is a victim, and the people who called law enforcement.
          As far as this being the first instance where the non LEO citizen on the scene made a difference, there are quite a few examples of that on this website. One includes an individual at another church just a week or two ago.

        • Regular citizens were first on the scene in each of the shootings you ask about, they were the VICTIMS! Unarmed, usually by law. Just as he said. The claim was not that they engaged the shooter, because they were unarmed. But they definitely WERE first on the scene.

        • There are any number of incidents where armed citizens stop armed criminals. Everyday in every state. You just don’t read about it because it isn’t newsworthy. When an armed citizen stops a criminal it doesn’t turn into a mass shooting. Or national news.

        • AS Ron White said about being a passenger in an airplane crash “I bet we beat the paramedics to the scene of the crash” regular people are always the first on scene as they are already there. Their choice to be armed or unarmed is the important factor.

        • HuntMaster EVERY instance of a CC stopping a criminal is collected and published by the NRA and you gun-nuts, its your favorite hobby after collectiing videos of blacks behaving badly and then pretending they are with BLM : D

        • “regular people are always the first on scene as they are already there.”

          Yeah I get that. That is why I assumed the wording was meant to imply regular people “usually” are the meaningfully respond to stop mass shootings rather than just being people “reacting” because they exist at the location that is being shot up.

          The sentence is: “As is usually the case, Willeford, an average citizen, was the first responder.” “First responder” suggests someone who intervenes to render aid or assistance. I suppose usually people on the ground render first aid before professionals. “Usually” the first people to meaningfully engage the shooters though are law enforcement or security personnel, and “usually” they are far too late because they can’t be everywhere all the time.

  9. It’s a good thing we had Willeford and Langendorff, who knows where he was going next. Don’t expect the liberals to make heroes of them, that’s not part of their agenda.

    • The shooter had “threatened” his mother-in-law, a member of that church, by text prior to the shooting. She did not attend services that day, but her mother did. He killed his grand-mother-in-law at the church. Is it logical to think his next act would be to track down the person he originally threatened?

  10. And the Liberals and Democrats will call for more gun control.
    From what I have read, he lied on the 4473 and PASSED NICS.
    Which means the AF did not report him as a prohibited person and the domestic violence charge was NOT REPORTED to NICS either.

  11. Guys, this is on the front page of CNN. I realize we all have our little persecution hard-on most of the time, but this time the mainstream media is actually reporting on this.

    • Then we should skreech even louder and make them slobber on themselves, lik Trump does. No. Mercy.

      • btw LarryinTX do you appreciate me helping you grapple with the indisputably documented reality of white privilege and systemic institutionalized racism in America?

    • Unusual events are often high-profile news… like if we discovered any of yall had graduated from college… or had perused and actually understood the literature on guns and crime… or if any of you Gump/Chump/Hump/Sump acolytes had anything to say beyond the banal and insipid remarks I see on this jackball site… this would be front page news too : D

      • Hurr hurr hurr. You say da funny.

        ^ Is that more your speed? Your only useful skill is flipping through the pages of a thesaurus and finding increasingly lame insults for people.

        • He needs to get a real life and stay off the computer. He is as useless as the shooter and probably is as mentally retarded too.

  12. Coward offed himself after killing multiple victims , typical. Here’s a thought, if you feel the need to kill people, start with yourself first

    • Perhaps, although that may be spin, and the truth may be that the murderer was fatally wounded by Mr Willeford.

      • The criminal was probably bleeding out, which is why he crashed and might have decided to finish himself off at that point.

        • If he did indeed get hit in the side by a 5.56 and kept going, it missed his heart & spine but went through either/both lungs, liver, and possibly ribs, ascending/descending artery or vein….. along with an arm, as he dropped his own AR after being hit (argument for .308).

          Which means during that chase, he was drowning, choking, and suffocating on his own hot frothy blood; while his vision/hearing went fuzzy & staticky from blood loss & oxygen deprivation.

          Though he managed to an hero before the law could ruin his streak, I’m sure he was enjoying the surprise of a terrifyingly delicious, self-aware, messily medium-paced death.

          I’m sure many of the people he had just murdered would’ve hoped for as much as he got; I’m pretty sure Christian forgiveness has its limits, especially after almost the entire congregation meets up past St. Pete’s gates.

          But that also means the call to his father sounded like he was trying to talk though a mouthful of coolwhip, while gargling marinara & choking on jello. I’m not a father, but hearing something like that (and then find out *why*), would likely end my tenure with sanity.

  13. The Media and Antis are desperately trying to spin the tragedies of what happened at this church and at the Thornton Walmart as proof of the need of gun control.

    The Church verified once again that the only way to stop a mass shooting is a good guy with a gun who confronts the shooter.

    Thorntons Walmart proved that concealed carriers will not try to play superman and cause an escalating shootout like Anti have claimed would happen. From the reports I have read the police admitted that the armed citizen never presented a threat to the Police on scene and to my knowledge none every fired. The only complaint the Police had is that they had to watch more video to verify if a gun carrier was a good guy or a bad gut. That has to be a lie of convenience to support anti gunners as I would think that during an investigation they would watch every person as the leave to make sure that person was and escaping shopper and not a bad guy trying to leave in the crowd.

  14. As usual, the media just gets it wrong on purpose, they have an agenda and the Facts don’t get in the way of a good story. First, my condolences to the family’s, church and community.

    The suspect did not have a dishonorable discharge from the military, I believe it was a “bad conduct discharge” which is not the same as a “dishonorable discharge” and which did not preclude him from purchasing firearms. The media knows this but choses not to accurately report this (CNN, MSNBC). The leftist media do not care, they want gun control, key word being “control” that only makes law abiding citizens into victims. .

    The good guys, Willeford and Langendorf could not have acted more professionally concerning the circumstances. They acted appropriately and should be recognized as heroes for their actions. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. That’s a fact.

    • He would have lied on the 4473 in at least 2 places.
      Section 11. c. “have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime for which as judge could imprison you for more than one year?”
      Section 11. i. “have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?
      And probably Section 11. h. as well, if there was ever a restraining order against him when he was charged and convicted with beating his wife and child.

      • Then, with 4 opportunities over 4 years, why was he not ever stopped, and sent to prison for 5 years for each count of lying, owning, and possessing firearms as a prohibited person? That would have him in federal prison for another 75 years.

    • No Wally thats a slogan, not a fact, those two things differ considerably… prior to this instance you baselessly presumed your slogan was a fact, and now that you gun-nuts have one instance that conforms to your slogan you will of course stupidly (since youre stupid) conclude that one instance makes your slogan a fact : D

      You are too dumb to think in any meaningful way, Im embarassed for you…

  15. Note: Under the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) a ” bad conduct discharge” or “Other than Honorable” is a punitive sentence and does not equate to what would be a felony in civilian courts.

    A “Dishonorable discharge” would be much like a felony to a civilian court and preclude an individual from firearms purchases and ownership.

    If the main stream media actually wanted to report real news, they could have discovered this information in about 2 minutes on the internet.

    • A DD is specifically addressed on the 4473, would have disqualified him. I suspect we will find he was not a prohibited person, probably should wait to find out rather than theorizing it to death.

  16. The antis always say that a good guy with a gun never stops these mass shooting where many many people are killed. Of course they ignore those events where they stop the shooter after only one or two people are shot. Now they have an example of the former and most of the commentary online is, “a good guy only stopped him after 26 people were killed, how useless is the good guy.”

    This means they’re essentially insatiable and not arguing in good faith. Which isn’t news, but it’s rarely this blatant.

  17. Last week, here in Portugal, a country with very strict gun laws, a portuguese Marine (Fuzileiro), who was at a nigth club, stopped a gun attack when two guys with guns tried to enter the club, after firing several shots towards the door. The Marine was carrying is personal weapon (a pistol), and, according to the media saved 90 lifes. This had almost no atention from the mainstream media.

      • Your writing is horrible, like a 4th grader, riddled with illogic, redundancy, inane supposition, glaring omissions, false claims etc… we can keep the 2a so yall have something to do and chat about but Im advocating an additional amendment to compel you to get a GED and pass community college journalism courses before youre permitted to disseminate more of this rambling hokum : D

  18. The so called hero came “after the fact” and that was 25 dead people, mostly innocent children. Real facts are you have no chance when a madman plans ahead of time, has the element of surprise and wears a bullet proof vest and carries an assault rifle. Meanwhile you are only armed with a pistol that does not penetrate a bullet proof vest and aiming for a small area of the face gives you about as much chance as a snowball in hell of connecting to him before he simply and easily blows you away with an assault rifle.

    At this point the question is why in the hell is not the U.S. Military sharing its information with the people in the Government that run the Brady Bill. If the weapons bought were bought legally than this is the fault of the U.S. Military for not sharing the fact that the Nut Case was sent to a military jail for a year over severe assault upon his wife which under the Brady Bill would have denied him purchase of any firearm.

    It is necessary to note that Texas denied him a concealed handgun permit so obviously law enforcement knew about his violent past and he therefore must have lied on the 4473 Federal Form. The ATF has made the statement he did legally purchase the guns so obviously they did not have information on him that would have prevented him from purchasing firearms. Even if you lie on a Federal Firearms From you will be caught if there is information in the system on you which since the Military had failed to share they are to blame for what happened. I think the obvious question now is how was it that Texas law enforcement knew about him but the Brady Bill people did not? It is possible he used a fake i.d. but law enforcement has yet to release everything that they know about him and exactly how he was able to purchase the firearms.

    It must be remembered that even if the Brady Bill had prevented him from purchasing firearms he would have gotten them anyway because the U.S. being under the influence and control of Hillbilly Republican Morons is the only country in the world that does not make it mandatory that all second hand gun sales be vetted and that guns purchased be locked up in safes to prevent theft. No civilized nation on earth save the U.S. has such an insane gun policy of being able to purchase firearms by anyone whether he be a criminal or a maniac on the loose and a further policy of letting people leave deadly weapons laying around a house or in a gun store so that anyone can kick in the door and cart off all the deadly weapons he wishes. If it were not for the gravity of the situation the rest of the world would be laughing at a Nation like the U.S. that is run by such screwball Morons.

    Meanwhile we have mass shooting now almost on a weekly basis and even the Republicans will soon reach a point where it will be politically impossible for them to keep on pandering to the NRA. Because we have failed to use such basic safeguards gun owners will pay the ultimate price with draconian gun and ammunition bans. I fear it may eventually get to the point where like at one time in Britain farmers were restricted to the purchase of only one box of .22 rimfire ammo per year and firearms restrictions so severe that the common man’s ability to afford to or jump through the political hoops to purchase firearms will be a thing of the past. Only the extremely wealthy and the Power Elite will have firearms and all because we refused to accept such basic safeguards as complete vetting of all firearms and the mandatory use of safes. And the Republicans refusal to institute National Health Care which would give free help to people with mental health issues. According to the Greed Monger Republicans money is more important than human life. They truly are the lowest form of human life on the planet and most of the Nations problems are the result of their policies of blind greed which results in pollution that is destroying all life on the planet, people dying from lack of health care, people going bankrupt for lack of affordable health care, young people giving up on the idea of an affordable college education, our roads and bridges unsafe to drive on, no money for the widening and improving of our roads, inadequate money for police training which results in a horrific 1,500 cop killings a year as compared to civilized nations which have only a few. This is all the result of our incessant wars of rape ,pillage and conquest that result in us spending the lions share of our taxes on this insanity leaving no money for the social programs all the other industrialized nations of the world have already had for decades and decades. We have created a Nation that has become an unsafe mad house to live in and a joke amongst the rest of the civilized nations of the world. Today you cannot even drive down the freeway without worrying that some nut case will start shooting at you for just cutting him off in traffic. Is it a wonder why 65 per cent of the American Public who do not own guns are demanding that all guns be outlawed? Since we have consistently failed to do anything we deserve what we inevitably are going to get and that is a complete ban on firearms and ammunition which the courts time and time again have ruled is legal (even though it Constitutionally is not) but when did the Courts ever really give a damn what the Constitution says or means.

    • Oh…you are one of those morons. First, the rifle is not an assault rifle, it is a civilian self defense rifle that is also used by police….and get this….if he passed the federal background check….genius…..he would have passed any background check for a private sale too. Apparently, Texas did it’s job with their check, but the federal government….did not do it’s job with it’s background check. You really are a nut…..if not for the NRA, the 2nd Amendment Foundation, and Gun Owners of America….our guns would already be gone….

      And the majority of the American people are uninformed on the issues about guns, so of course they parrot whatever talking head they heard last night on jimmy kimmel or the democrat controlled news show…but you don’t set Constitutional policy on the uninformed…you don’t strip the Right of self defense based on the uninformed…

      We have done more than enough to deal with gun criminals….again…he passed the freaking federal background check…..what else do you want to do…make it extra, extra, extra illegal to murder people with illegal guns?

      And just what would a mandatory “Safe” law do…considering he owned the guns he used to murder the people…do you anti gun people ever think before you post…or do you also simply parrot whatever gun control point you hear the latest democrat politician screech on the nearest microphone on the cable show?

      • Hey…genius….you do realize that in France, Terrorists on government terrorist watch lists got fully automatic military rifles…actual military rifles, hand grenades and pistols….all of which are completely illegal in France……and they used them to murder 142 people between Hebdo and Paris? They have every single gun control law you and your anti gun buddies want here… gun shows, no gun stores, you can’t buy, own or carry fully automatic or semi automatic rifles….and terrorists got them easily. So how do you keep guns out of the hands of shooter here…with Mexico right across our border just waiting to sell more guns to more criminals? And Britain….their gun control laws have failed…their criminals get guns easily and their gun crime is up, 42% in London…….and 23% all over the rest of their country over a decade after completely banning guns…..including handguns which account for the biggest increase….Then you have Australia, their gun control has failed too…Melbourne is nicknamed the “City of the Gun” in an article about the increasing gun crime in Australia titled “Young, Dumb and Armed” a 3 part series on gun crime in Australia……gun control fails everywhere it is tried.

        • The fact remains that we are 5X more likely to be murdered in the US than in UK or Australia… so no matter how much bullsheet you post we have a serious problem in the US and it wont be addressed by ensuring the legal availability of these dangerous tools nor by failing to address illegal acquistion of these dangerous tools…( I mean the guns btw not yall, though yall constantly lying and blocking any effort makes you even more dangerous tools : D)

        • 2headed guy but still no brains.

          You mention Australia failing. What planet do you live on. They have had not one mass shooting since they passed their gun control law back in the 80’s. I would say that’s a pretty damn good record that their law worked and worked well.

          You mention Britain. They had a guy back in the 80’s massacre a neighborhood with an ak47. Britain put a stop to it and it has not happened since. They had a nut case with two handguns massacre kids back in the late 80’s and Britain put a stop to it. Again that’s two laws that worked and worked well.

          You mention the terrorist attacks in France and how their gun laws did not work. That’s because your not educated enough to know that they did work and continue to work but no law can stop another independent terrorist nation or group when they sponsor their agents and equip them to start a war. That’s called war and has nothing to do with domestic gun laws. I am sure I have lost you on that one as its probably way over your head.

      • AR-15 is an assault weapon used in countless mass shootings, seems to be a favorite among that set, especially suited to their parting shoots 😀

        • Do you even know how to type? Or do you just slam your face against the keyboard until spellcheck helps you form somewhat passable sentences?

    • “So called hero”? The man left the safety of his home and rode to the sound of the guns. That makes him a real hero.

      That one statement is enough to off set the rest of your rambling screed.

      This is why Trump is president and why he will have 8 years if he so wishes it.

      I’m glad you’re against us and not with us. Our side doesn’t need the likes of you. Go suck up to hillary.

  19. Who is Dan Zimmerman?
    I would like TTAG to clarify for me if the below is taken from another source, or they wrote it themselves—

    “The 26-year-old dropped his Ruger assault rifle and climbed in an SUV to flee the scene.”

    I’m pretty sure Ruger would like to know also. My bet is they are certain that they do not sell assault rifles to the public market.
    If a TTAG employee/sub-contractor wrote this, not only is it a major fail, it should be considered extremely embarrassing and they need to beg forgiveness at a minimum.
    Does Mr. Zimmerman consider rifles used in horrible mass shootings to be then-verified assault rifles? What if someone used a 10/22? Assault plinker?

    Some of us are paying attention and this makes me doubt TTAG’s other articles and opinions. If I’m incorrect, apologies in advance. But then at the very least, you need to apologize for having such a lousy editor with an inability to catch an obviously glaring mistake or to more clearly state the origin of said mistake.

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