A TTAG reader writes: “Mark ‘I wasn’t really buying that AR-15‘ Kelly is committing a felony right in front of New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. It’s against New York State (NYS) law for someone to be in possession (i.e. holding) a handgun without a valid NYS Pistol license. Mark Kelly can’t have a NYS pistol license because he’s not a legal resident of New York.” An Empire State firearms attorney told TTAG that there’s an exception for firearms training but, as far as he can tell, not gun shows. Unless we hear otherwise, under Article 265 of New York State penal law, Mr. Kelly’s committing a Class E felony. But wait! There’s more! Well, there would have been if Kelly hadn’t been pressed for time. “Kelly bought a book on Colt revolvers,” washingtontimes.com reports, “and said later he probably would have bought a gun if he had had more time.”
Home Crime and Punishment Mark Kelly Commits a Felony at New York Gun Show
Fraking hypocrite. Can’t stand the guy.
Am I the only one who’s noticed it appears to be a pre-1899 Colt?
In which case… it’s technically not a firearm. Even a convicted felon can own one.
There appears to be other 1800’s firearms in the cases in the picture.
I have had a Ruger old army and several other antique pistols confiscated by the Oneida county sheriffs dept, when my father passed because no one had a valid pistol permit after he passed. I showed them the law concerning antique and curio firearms and they chose to ignore it. So I guess the law here in NY is what ever they want it to be at the moment.
You don’t have constitutional rights here in NY
That does not apply in NY. If the firearm can load cartridge ammunition, it is a firearm regardless of date of manufacture. A muzzleloader (cap & ball revolver) is not a firearm, if and only if, you do not possess powder,cap and ball. if you have powder, cap and ball, regardless of whether it is loaded, it must be licensed. The gun he is holding has a fluted cylinder, and that is highly indicative that this is a cartridge gun. He committed a felony under NY’s insane laws..
You are right, in fact I read the book he bought was on blackpowder Colt revolvers. And for the record there were fluted cap and ball original colts, and fantasy reproductions can be had with fluted cap and ball cylinders.
So, politicians and their cronies get to live by a separate set of laws? Who knew?
I believe that is the definition of tyranny “Rights for me, but never for thee”
“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
I hope we have enough ‘idiots’ to disobey “their” orders and are prepared to fight back. It’ll be interesting to see who’s the best shot. I’ll be we actual Americans are.
Some are more equal than others. Just ask David Gregory or DiFi.
They always have.
So…”common sense” to this guy means ignoring the very same ridiculous laws he supports. Smooth move, Ex-lax.
I can’t believe he is ignorant enough to say he would have bought a gun; NO ONE can buy a gun anywhere unless they are a resident of THAT state and have THAT states’ drivers license, which he didn’t!!!!
That is not true. I can go to any number of southern states and buy a gun from a licensed dealer there, since they have similar laws to my home state of Texas. I would not expect to be able to buy one in NY though.
You can buy a longgun from a dealer as long as your state does not object. You cannot buy a handgun in another state, except by having it transfered to an FFL in yours
Unless you have an 03FFL and are purchasing a curio and relic. Even The Peoples Republic of Kaliforniastan allows that
Yes, you can “buy” a gun. You CAN’T however take it away from the gun show with you. You MUST have an FFL (Federal Firearms License) holder IN your home state to accept delivery of the weapon and convey it to you. Not a loophole, just a legal inconvenience and added paperwork & expense for you.
I hate to say it, but I wouldn’t go to New York even if they was going to give me one.
Yes, you can buy in any state, but a handgun must be delivered to an FFL in your state of residence for transfer IAW federal law. The firearm must also be legal in your state of residence.
Not quite accurate:
this is the link that shows long guns are ok for ffl to sell to out of state buyers so long as they comply with state laws.
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
Wonder if charges are pending….. If it had been anyone else the cuffs would’ve been on faster than you can blink.
It’s a pretty big stretch to call that possession…
If I let you drive my car while I’m riding shotgun you might be operating it, but I still have possession.
Therefor I can drive it without a license? I don’t think so.
No, you don’t.
Possession and ownership are not the same under the law.
If I own a car, and I lend it to you, you are in possession of the car, I just keep the title.
It’s the same with firearms. It’s one of the reasons why people are so opposed to background checks, because the wording is not upon transfer of ownership, but upon transfer or change of possession. It’s why there is a training exemption in New York, because the person receiving the training doesn’t own the handgun, but is in possession of the handgun.
Technically, anytime you hand someone your firearm, they are in possession, even if you are standing right there. As many of these laws are written, you’d need to have a background check down before even picking up the firearm, then another background check down before handing it back.
Yes, people would be prosecuted under this bizarre logic.
People yes, but not politicians. That’s different.
It’s why there is a training exemption in New York, because the person receiving the training doesn’t own the handgun, but is in possession of the handgun.
Yep. If there needs to be an exception for training, then merely handing a gun to someone means they are in possession. If that wasn’t the case, a “training exception” would not be necessary.
This is not true. You may allow someone use of something in controlled circumstances while under supervision and maintain legal possession.
Example: ranges that rent full auto weapons.
Renting full auto weapons is not strictly legal. But there’s not yet been a court case to determine if it is or isn’t, so for now it is by default.
In NY you cannot let another person handle your handgun without a permit unless the training exception applies. Most gun stores will not take a handgun out of the case without seeing your permit first. Smaller stores who know their clientele may not always ask. Kelly was in violation of NY law. Trouble is, so was the dood who handed it to him. If pressed, Kelly and the attorney general would claim that they were just demonstrating another example of “gunshow violations” . Then whoever handed Kelly the gun would be charged, fined, lose their FFL, NY “firearm priveleges”, etc, etc.
That’s STATE law.
So, for example, in Nevada, you can be lent a full auto at a particular location, because the State law allows this.
In New York, the law doesn’t allow this. You literally cannot legally hand a handgun to a person who doesn’t have the New York State permit. The only exception is for training.
At a gun store, in New York, they can’t legally hand you a handgun to hold, unless you have a State permit.
Just because something is legal in one State, doesn’t mean it’s legal in another State.
If a person hands you his baggie of marijuana and a cop walks up, you’re in possession, not the person who owns it. I guess you can always try the “I was just holding it for a friend” defense.
In NY it’s not a stretch at all.
Listen, it’s not mine. I was holding it for a friend…
You just said “Well hello, I am indeed guilty of this class E felony, thank you very much!”.
Not a stretch in NY. I lived there. No license, not a finger on a handgun. Period.
In NY, you’re not allowed to touch a handgun without a permit. FFL’s enforce this for the average citizen. My friend just got her permit; she wasn’t allowed to pick up a gun in a store, but she now has only 90 days to make a purchase, or her permit expires. NY has some really screwed up laws. So if they enforce this BS part of the law for us, they should enforce it for Kelly as well.
Actually, in New York, you have 60 days not 90 to put a gun on your pistol permit after you receive it. My husband and are going through this ourselves. He got his pistol permit in August. Mine is dated Sept. 23, i have until Nov. 23 to put a gun on my permit.
And while I was shopping for my pistol, I was asked if I have my permit already. When I told them no not yet, that I am just waiting for the judge to sign it (the last stage of the process), I was allowed to handle the pistols. I was able to put it on layaway & pay for it. Even if it was paid in full, would not be able to remove it from the store without having my permit. I have to make the final payment, “paid in full” has to be hand written on the receipt, take the receipt downtown to put the gun on my permit, then go back to the store, show them that the gun has been added to my permit, then I can walk out with it.
In Illinois, if you are looking at ANY firearm, in a store, and do not have your I.F.O.I.D. Card (Illinois Firearm Identification Card , or natzi registration card ) in plain sight, you and the proprietor go to jail. At gunshows, you must show the card BEFORE Touching any gun.
He gets the David Gregory exemption…If push comes to shove “Eric the Nazi” will prosecute the guy who had the table at the gunshow.
These people really irk me. I’d use more coarse language, but…
In any case,
#-1 If it was my table I tell the guy to get away from my table and to eff off.
#-2 I’d make a very loud and embarrassing citizens arrest
#-3- I’d tell him to get his wife away from my table, after all, she’s brain damaged and therefore mentally incompetent.
I wonder if the sellers at the show knew who he was. I’d be surprised if he wasn’t told to FOAD by at least a couple of tables that recognized him.
“Get your paws off my merchandise and get your gun-grabbing hypocritical ass away from my table.”
“Citizens ah-RAY-est! Citizens ah-RAY-est!”
What a choice to have to make.
I think the ATF, Texas or Az could nail him if the investigated him closely regarding his buying habits. The question is where does he live and what DL does he have. For example, when he bought the 1911 in Arizona, was he a TX resident or AZ resident. If he is a Tx resident, the piece was supposed to be sent to a Tx ffl for proper transfer. I was born in Florida and currently work and live there. However, I have very close ties to Tennessee. However, I can’t just stroll in and legally buy a handgun without properly having it sent to FL.
Four legs good, two legs better.
By NYS law, section 265 holding the firearm in your hand counts as possession, Most gun stores will not let you handle a handgun unless you show a NYS permit or paperwork indicating you are in the process of receiving your permit.
It doesn’t say that. The term “possession” has a distinct meaning in the law. Forget what you know, the “legal” dictionary does not match Websters.
§ 265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to
the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen
which added this section subject to the registration requirements of
subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly
fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.
Then why is there an exception to the “possession” statute for the case where a trainer hands a firearm to a trainee, while the trainer remains present?
(Presuming there is such a statutory “exception”, of course.)
An example from the link above:
S 265.20 Exemptions
7-a. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at the time.
That exempts “possession” (as well as “use”), even though the person to whom the firearm is licensed is “present at the time”. If the licensee being present meant that the holder of the firearm wasn’t actually in possession of the firearm, then there would be no need for 7-a to provide an exemption for “possession”.
New York Penal – Article 10 – § 10.00 Definitions of Terms of General Use in This Chapter
8. “Possess” means to have physical possession or otherwise to exercise dominion or control over tangible property.
Straight from the NY Courts:
POSSESS means to have physical possession or otherwise
to exercise dominion or control over tangible property. Thus a
person may possess property in either of two ways:
First, the person may have physical possession of property
by holding it in his or her hand, or by carrying it in or on his or her
body or person.
Second, the person may exercise dominion or control over
property not in his or her physical possession. A person who
exercises dominion or control over property not in his or her
physical possession is said to have that property in his or her
Under our law, a person has tangible property in his or her
constructive possession when that person exercises a level of
control over the area in which the property is found, or over the
person from whom the property is seized, sufficient to give him or
her the ability to use or dispose of the property.1
[NOTE: Add where appropriate:
Additionally, the law recognizes the possibility that two or
more individuals can jointly have property in their constructive
possession. Two or more persons have property in their joint
constructive possession when they each exercise dominion or
control over the property by a sufficient level of control over the
area in which the property is found or over the person from whom
the property is seized to give each of them the ability to use or
dispose of the property.]2
See People v Manini, 1 79 NY2d 561, 573 (1992).
2 See People v. Tirado, 38 N.Y.2d 955 (1976).
“Possess” means to have physical possession or otherwise to exercise dominion or control over tangible property.
the person may have physical possession of property by holding it in his or her hand
And two or more people may jointly have possession of the property (e.g. the actual owner of an object hands it to another). The owner has constructive possession, while the holder has physical possession.
OK. So holding a gun in your hand means you have physical possession of the gun. It’s possible that another also has constructive possession of the gun at the same time, but that doesn’t change the fact that the person holding it has physical possession.
I have never been at an FFL in MA, either in the shop or at a gun show, where I was allowed to touch a handgun without showing my permit. It makes sense that one could touch/hold something without buying (how about a car dealer not allowing children behind the wheel without a driver’s license), but ya gotta show the card or no touch.
The reports I have read out of CO show that a firearm “transfer” means putting the gun in some else’s hands. I heard an interview with a sheriff who, when people were evacuating from the floods, told those affected gun owners to move the guns to safety and figure things out afterwards. (The CO law considers magazine “transfers” the same way.)
In MA, even though they knew me well I had to show my permit. I found it crazy how anal it was. Here in KS now they almost throw guns at you to look at which makes the experience a bit more relaxed and normal feeling.
What a nice feeling that must be. For now, I’ll dream…
…and even then, technically you are only allowed to possess the gun which is actually registered on your permit. So gun shopping is legally difficult.
That said, I’ve never been asked to show my permit…
Hence the exemption in 265.20 7-a, where Person A can possess and use a pistol or revolver not licensed to him, as long as:
* It’s at a shooting range
* Person A is licensed to possess a pistol or revolver
* Person B (to whom the pistol or revolver is licensed) is present at the time
If the presence of Person B meant that Person A didn’t actually possess the pistol or revolver, then there would be no need to exempt “possession” in that statute, nor would there be a need for Person A to have a license to possess a pistol or revolver. Since the legislature did see fit to include “possession”, as well as the requirement that Person A is licensed to possess a pistol or revolver, they must have intended that Person A “possesses” the gun in that situation.
If he was a right-winger, the Progs would suggest public drawing and quartering. Shameless.
We’re surprised? Remember, this is also the man that finds it perfectly OK to hand a firearm to someone with documented diminished mental capacity….
Come on guys, he is a jackwagon, but he is NOT breaking the law. Possession does not equate to “holding” at a gun show. The legal term equates to “dominion”..the same concept that applies in regards to so called Class III items e.g. letting your buddy shoot your legal/stamped machine gun in your presence.
There are plenty of real things to focus on, and this kind of stuff takes the eye off the ball.
IT DOES IN NEW YORK. That’s what some of you fail to understand. NY has always been more ridiculous than most states with the nuances of its gun laws, thanks to NYC… that has become much worse since the so-called ‘SAFE Act’.
Hannibal is correct. Never, ever equate normal legal definitions or vocabulary with anything within the NYS penal code. You cannot touch a handgun in NYS without a permit unless the training exemption applies. Neither can you let someone without a permit touch your hangun. At all. Call any NY gunstore–they will enlighten you.
In law ‘dominion’ and ‘possession’ are entirely different concepts. Dominion refers to legal powers, not to any physical relationship to the item. You have dominion if you have legally sanctioned ability to command the disposition of that property. It might be in another state.
Why does anyone care what this douche says or does?
Because he mimics what his superiors do and believe. Of course his bosses do it at a much higher level of corruption; the sociopaths have taken control of the nation, standby for the Zombie hordes!
Because advocates for rules that apply to everyone else, but he has been shown to ignore or sidestep them when they become inconvenient for him. If a NY resident could not have handled that gun without a NY pistol permit, then how can he, as a non-resident, do so legally? I’m sure he thinks the NY pistol permit law is a great thing if you ask him, but in practice, he’s breaking it, whether by accident or ignorance or design.
Biggest case of Cognitive Dissonance…ever!
If the gun in question is tethered then it is not “possession”. If not . . . then by most standards it is. If you get caught on the street w/ a rock or 2 – that is considered “possession” even if you were holding it for someone else. You have a knife on your person when arrested? Does not matter that your grandma already paid for it and you were bringing it to here. You are considered to be in “possession” of a weapon regardless if said weapon is lawful/unlawful or legal/illegal to possess.
Remember merely having a certain amount of a banned substance can equal “intent to sell”.
One rule for us, another for them.
EVERYONE needs to be prosecuted to the LETTER of the law. Only then can they be changed. Selective enforcement of ridiculous laws only works when the people making those choices are your friends.
The Giffords and Kelly traveling
I’m pretty sure that most laws don’t apply to members of the U.S. Politburo and their immediate family members.
ahh yes. anti-gun, anti-civil rights hypocrisy at it’s finest. The elites who do whatever they want and prevent the ‘peasantry’ from doing the same.
Ok, your wife got shot. That sucks. Getting shot is not fun. I was in Iraq and know EXACTLY what it is like. But, as the old saying goes, getting struck by lightning doesn’t make you a meteorologist. You simply can’t take lightning out of the clouds to prevent future lightning strikes.
Dear Mark Gifford, You are scum! The sour ideas on gun control (anti-human rights): therefore prevention of self defense are an abomination.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal …” — United States Declaration of Independence, 1776
“… nor shall any State … deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” United States Constitution 14th Amendment
I imagine the 14th Amendment has to imply that states cannot selectively enforce laws against only certain classes of citizens, either. Given that the state attorney general refuses to prosecute political cronies (Mark Kelly), there has to be a good basis for a lawsuit here.
As we hear so often, some men are more equal than others.
Ehhh, let him prance and prattle on. He’ll get his comeuppance someday.
“…he hath loosed his terrible swift sword”
Pretty sad day when people think laws against touching a gun without being a registered person constitutes protection of the population. True there is a disarmament component to it but no common sense whatsoever. It seems to spring from the belief that the gun itself is dangerous enough, let alone that ordinary person without a badge handling it.
Maybe we should all become deputies and part time law enforcers.
In the wonderful state of Illinois a dealer will not take a gun out of the case until you have shown them your FOID (Firearms Owners ID) card, one of our numerous crosses to bear. For the same preposterous reasons as the citizens of NY have stated above. These ridiculous laws do exist and are arduously enforced. Most FFLs in Illinois are not jerks, but are understandably paranoid about ATF stings. They know, or have heard about, just such setups by the ATF.
Here is the section of NY Penal Law 400.00
2. Types of licenses.
A license for gunsmith or dealer in firearms shall be issued to engage in such business.
A license for a pistol or revolver, other than an assault weapon or a disguised gun, shall be issued to (a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder; (b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper; (c) have and carry concealed while so employed by a messenger employed by a banking institution or express company; (d) have and carry concealed by a justice of the supreme court in the first or second judicial departments, or by a judge of the New York city civil court or the New York city criminal court; (e) have and carry concealed while so employed by a regular employee of an institution of the state, or of any county, city, town or village, under control of a commissioner of correction of the city or any warden, superintendent or head keeper of any state prison, penitentiary, workhouse, county jail or other institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime or held as witnesses in criminal cases, provided that application is made therefor by such commissioner, warden, superintendent or head keeper; (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof; and (g) have, possess, collect and carry antique pistols which are defined as follows: (i) any single shot, muzzle loading pistol with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system manufactured in or before l898, which is not designed for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; and (ii) any replica of any pistol described in clause (i) hereof if such replica– (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Let’s look at the photo.
That’s a C&R-classed single-action. Declared not a “firearm” under the NFA, GCA, or NYS Penal Law… particularly if that’s in a odd old caliber like .41 Rimfire, without “readily available ammunition”. I’d expect the trio would shy far-far-away from anything modern/semi-auto/black… it is, after all is said and done, a photo op.
For the rest of the naysayers, learn your NYS law as applied to Dealers in Pistols and Revolvers.
It is indeed legal to display, and place into the hand of any person aged 21 and over, any unloaded pistol or revolver, when in your demised place of business, shown on your FFL and NYS DPR paperwork.
You may even load and fire such a firearm, should you also operate an accredited firearms instruction facility, and hold appropriate instructor certifications. One is not automatically the other.
Any police officer, fully-accredited in the State of NY, may upon his/her badge, purchase and leave with any firearm – that day. This includes purchase orders, not just cash/check/credit card.
There’s also an exigent emergency clause, where a LEO may commandeer a firearm to augment his issue firearms, if a danger to public order and safety so exists. A scoped .30-06 rifle to face a sniper, would be an example.
Any peace officer (corrections officers, etc…) must await purchase authorization from the NYS Police, Pistol Permit Division.
Federal officers are Federal officers, and can not “badge a gun” out of your shop, without the dealer violating State Law.
“For the rest of the naysayers, learn your NYS law as applied to Dealers in Pistols and Revolvers.
It is indeed legal to display, and place into the hand of any person aged 21 and over, any unloaded pistol or revolver, when in your demised place of business, shown on your FFL and NYS DPR paperwork.”
Would the gun show premises be a “demised place of business, shown on your FFL and NYS DPR paperwork”?
Interestingly, 400.00 as quoted by One If By Land above, seems to say that a license shall be issued to have, possess, collect and carry antique pistols. If no license to possess is necessary for C&R pistols, why does NYS issue them?
400.00 as quoted only seems to exempt single-shot pistols, even if they are from before 1898.
Also, 43north, Curios and Relics are still firearms for all intents and purposes other than the fact that someone with a Collector’s license can purchase them through the mail interstate without transferring through an FFL.
“400.00 as quoted only seems to exempt single-shot pistols, even if they are from before 1898”
It doesn’t seem to exempt them. It seems to say that a license to have, possess, collect and carry them shall be issued.
If a license shall be issued, that seems to imply that such a license is required.
EDIT: maybe I misunderstood your comment. Were you saying that 400.00 only says that a license “shall” be issued for single shot pistols? Thus, a revolver, even if made before 1898, wouldn’t fall under that “shall issue” license provision.
I held a FFL 01, and NYS Dealer in Pistols and Revolvers license, while a resident there.
My clients were predominantly law enforcement agencies going through transition from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols, LEOs and Correction Officers. I know, from having dealt with the County Authority, and the State Police Licensing Division, what is real, expected, verses a dumb-ass god-of-law-enforcement rookie mistake. The bullshit from the buckwheat.
As the statue reads: no permit = no gun4u.
In practical application, one could not receive the training required for permitting, without having such a prohibited weapon in your “possession”.
Any arrest would appear before the exact County Judges who required the training, and signed the Pistol Permits. A non-starter for any over zealous cop. “Take the handcuff off, and say you’re sorry to the nice man… or find yourself walking foot patrol in January. All of January, every January.”
As stated by Don S, there is a difference between physical possession, and dominion and control.
I drew a loaded gun twice. Once on a smart-ass who asked “What would prevent me from just walking out with this?”
Answer: the ambulance you’ll need.
The second time was a phishing expedition (new phrase, old idea) by a person with a really small badge and oversized ID. “But I’m a Special Agent”.
Not in New York you’re not.
Just as NY cops are dirt beneath the feet of the New Jersey State Police.
“Your badge? Just-as illegal as your gun here in the Garden State.”
Thus, two states I’ve no compelling interest to transit, visit, or live in any longer.
Here’s what needs to be proven under NY Law:
Like FDR, JFK, Nixon, Ford, Carter, this progressive came out of the US Navy
You forgot “Landslide Lyndon” Johnson, he of the “questionable” Silver Star.
And I’m sorry their CPO’s didn’t raise them right…
I am happily ignorant of NY gun laws, being a citizen of a Free state. Therefore, I must ask–is there an exception in NY law as there is in Federal law (GCA1968) wherein this ‘gun’ might not even be a ‘gun’? The revolver that Mr. Kelly is handling could very well have been built prior to 1899–it appears to be a Colt SAA 1st Generation, and probably a Smokeless frame (1896 and up), although I can’t be sure. If the frame was manufactured before 1/1/1899, this ‘gun’ is an antique and not a ‘firearm.’ Likewise, if it is chambered for a black-powder round no longer in common manufacture (.44 Henry rimfire, for example), it may not be a ‘gun’, either.
All of the other handguns in the left-hand case probably date from the 1860s or 1870s, as I see S&W Model 1s, 1 1/2s, and 2s in there (rimfire single-action tip-ups–all S&W single-action revolvers are pre-1899) and the guns in the case in front are from the 1880s or 1890s (mostly large-frame break-open S&Ws, I believe, all of which frames–both SA and DA–were made before 1899).
It looks like Mr. Kelly may be doing nothing illegal at all–at least in the Real World.
Stories like this make me happy to be inKentucky where a gun store will shove a gun in your hands if you so much as sneeze in that direction but it also confuses me. why in the sam hill would you make picking up a gun in a gun shop or at a gun show illegal without a permit? What purpose does that serve?
Almost certainly, none–lending credence to the thought that Mr. Kelly is fondling a legal ‘antique.’ The information about NY from others above (that it is legal in the place of business of an FFL to let a person handle an unloaded firearm) seem to cover the gun shop aspect, and if the vendor at a show has an FFL and can legally do business at said show, that takes care of THAT.
I think Mr. Kelly gets a pass, unless that SAA has been converted to full auto.
I did a silly thing, and ‘moused’ over the photo–it states, leaving out the entire data text for the photo:
” New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, left, former Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, center, and her husband Mark Kelly tour the New EastCoast Arms Collectors Associates arms fair in Saratoga Springs, N.Y. on Sunday, Oct. 13, 2013. Kelly looks at an antique revolver.”
No prison time for Mr. Kelly, fellers. He might as well be fondling his, um, wife.
Monsieur L’Editeur, J’accuse!
This wasn’t done in a very fair manner; Mark Kelly is a d*ck, and probably eats babies, but there’s no reason to MSU, as does the MSM, when just a few moments reflection and research would’ve changed the entire meaning of the situation.
I think y’all missed the point in the post where Mr. Farago did his due diligence and verified the account with a NY Firearms Attorney, who, upon review of the law, found no exceptions (including for antiques) for the requirement to be licensed in this instance……
See, the steaming heap of deceit and his pet meat puppet are drawn to the Bloomie cash like a moth to a flame. Where was Little Hitler when these two were in Saratoga? The AG doesn’t just “turn up” at a gun show, especially so soon after selling the state down the river (again).
I think both he and his wife are trying to profit off a tragic loss of children’s lives, but he isn’t committing a crime. He can inspect a firearm and even buy one in NY State without a permit. The dealer/owner is present and if purchased he would have to have the sale completed by sending the firearm to a FFL dealer in his home state. Really, lets stick with the truth and leave the “creative” writing and bullcrap to the liberal radicle extremists!!
It’s interesting to me how many polar opposite opinions we have in this post about whether or not it’s illegal.
How many of those opinions (in either direction) are coming from people who either live in New York or have extensive personal and practical experience with its gun laws, and how many people have just read the statute for the first time in this post?
Oh c’mon, are you saying it’s illegal to pick up and hold a handgun to look at it, if you don’t have an NYS license? I think that’s really picking nits!
I live in Illinois, which is arguably the WORST state for gun owners. I have to have a FOID (Firearm Owners IDentification card) to handle at a gun at a store. They won’t even take it out of the case until I give it to them. Some gun stores require you to have a FOID to even enter it. BUT, I am allowed to take up to 2 of my non-FOID-holding friends to the range and they can shoot my guns. Which, by definition, requires them to handle the guns. They can pay for thier range time, but are not allowed to purchase ammo, and if they give me any money towards their shooting of MY ammo, and the range owner sees the money change hands, we would be kicked out immediately. But they can shoot my guns and my ammo without being a licensed firearm owner. I dislike Mark Kelly as much as the next guy, but I think this interpretation of what he is doing is a grey area. I am not sure if I could take my FOID to another state and be allowed to handle a weapon in a gun store, but I know people from other states go to gun shows all the time. My understanding is that, if they were to want to PURCHASE the gun, they would have to go through a dealer with an FFL in their own state, who would handle all the legalities and verifications necessary for them to buy it, and they would have to abide by waiting periods, etc at that time.
As new yorkers – we should all press our esteemed AG for clarification on the law regarding handling handguns without a license.
We should ask our state senators and congressmen to inquire about an official policy letter about the same thing.
It is time to end the “some animals are more equal than others” clause in all NY laws.
Any and all gun laws are useless, period.
One of my TOO many reasons why I left New York State.
Wow. This article is completely pointless. There’s no f’ing felony being committed here. He’s at a goddamned gun show for god’s sake that just happens to be in New York! What do you do at gun shows? Handle guns you f’in idiots! Do you children know the difference in handling(HOLDING) a gun and possessing a gun? No you obviously don’t! This article is the definition of “reaching” for a story that isn’t there. It’s time you people grow the “F” up and be adults. You give the Gun Rights movement a bad name! Smack yourself for being a jackass.
Respectfully – are you a resident of the state of NY? Are you intimately familiar with the laws governing firearms as prudent to section 265 and 400 of the penal code? Do you have a NYS Pistol license?
In plain english – listen to my words here- unless you have a NYS pistol license YOU CANNOT EVEN HOLD A HANDGUN IN THE STATE OF NY.
That means no fingering it at a gunshow, or at a gun store. That means no trying your buddy’s new SIG at the range. That means no taking NRA Basic Pistol or other equivalent course with a live fire portion requiring handguns.
Many of the commentors here live and breathe this crap everyday, myself included, and are sick of this double standard when it comes to the selective enforcement of these archaic gun laws that were started in the corrupt tammany hall when the corrupt Tim Sullivan did not want his political enemies to have the ability to defend themselves when he broke up protests.
If anyone is giving the gun rights movement a bad name it is people like you. You are exactly the type that the antigun handlers of Mark Kelly and Gabby Giffords wants to persuade. “common sense” and the like… We are all in this together. If we do not point out the corrupt nature of these laws and their enforcement, and stop giving in to emotional arguments, we are all slowly going to start losing. It isn’t going to just be confined to NY, CA, CO, CT, NJ… it will spread to the rest of free America.
Respectfully RJ- I am intimately aware of Penal Codes 265 and 400. The issue here is possession, not licensing. It makes me sad that people can not make the distinction between possessing something and handling something. I don’t care what this guy’s political affiliation is. There isn’t one single line in either of those penal codes or any NY penal codes that states you have to have a license to touch a weapon at a gun show. Not one single sentence. I have great disdain for people that essentially “talk out their ass” to prove themselves right knowingly having no real idea of are a vague idea of what they are speaking about. Again, you are one of the exact type giving the gun rights movement a bad name. No one will take the gun rights movement seriously if people like you try to speak about specific laws publicly without even knowing what the hell is exactly written in the law. Not vaguely written, exactly written. Get a damn dictionary and read the definitions of Possession and Handling and note the difference. He’s at a gun show handling a gun. Not possessing. THAT is the issue at hand, and he is doing nothing wrong regardless of who he is and who he’s married to. The End.
As much as I would agree about him handling that weapon if you take a close look I believe the gun is an antique and old enough that you do not need a permit to handle it. Please advise and if that is right then please say so. I do not like gun grabbers but I will not get on their case if they did not break the law. I believe if he had no legal right to handle the weapon the owner would have said something as would have the Attorney General.
Funny, I don’t remember anywhere in the second amendment, stating I had to ask the king for a firearm…
Where is the NRA?
Fuck NY really, im much happier living in other states then that shitty, power hungry money hungry “Empire State”
Those of you calling for his arrest are in fact conceding that the new york law is a valid and enforceable law. I say unless he is a convicted felon then he broke no law even if it had been a NFA weapon.
Mark Kelly went into a,gun shop in Arizona to show how easy it was to buy an AR15. He filled out a form saying his purchase was for his use. He posted that he was getting it to give to another group. That’s called lying on that federal form 4473. It says on that form that any lies are a felony and you can be fined and go to prison. He didn’t get it. Because they caught his lies. He was was never charged by the Obama ATF. I wonder why?