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Again, I feel obliged to point out that Americans have a Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. There’s only one way to remove that right legally: ditch or amend the Second Amendment. Meanwhile, here’s some new research from the Mayors Against Illegals Guns’ agitprop front group “Solid majorities of Americans, including gun owners, also support a ban on assault weapons. Eighty one percent of those polled, including 71 percent of gun owners and 60 percent of NRA members, favored renewing the federal ban. Findings like these demonstrate strong and decisive support for common sense gun violence prevention legislation that would protect both the safety and rights of all Americans.” No to both, methinks. But that’s pretty startling stuff. Is it true? It sure look like a sandbag job . . .

Click here to read demanddisarmament’s “Interested Parties Memo” detailing the survey.  Which includes the following opening statement . . .

Douglas E. Schoen, LLC conducted a national survey with a random sample of 1,800 likely voters. Our sample contained an oversample of 400 gun owners and 200 NRA members. The survey took place on December 27 – 29, 2012.

I’m no Nick Leghorn, but that description raises some questions about the findings.

First, Schoen is a Democratic operative who’s headline clients include Bill Clinton and Michael Bloomberg, the Mayors Against Illegal Guns’ founder and sugar daddy (surprise!). The survey was conducted by his company Penn Schoen Berland, a British-owned PR firm. Not an independent polling group.

Second, the sample size is laughable: just 600 gun owners. Third, the sample questions and survey methodology are notable by their absence. We don’t know how the questions were phrased. And fourth, the survey was held in December, less than two weeks after the Sandy Hook slaughter.

Regardless of the sham stats generated by this sham exercise, it’s revealing in its own special way. Check out this chart, which somehow didn’t make it onto the demanddisarmament website:


See what they did there? “Protecting the rights of gun owners (as opposed to protecting the Second Amendment)” vs. “the responsibility of citizens (not gun owners) to protect people from violent crimes caused by guns.” This is what’s called a “false choice,” a favorite technique of car salesman (e.g., “do you want it in red or blue” not “do you want to buy this car”).

Here’s the other chart left off the main site:



This time we get a reasonable first choice (“The government has no right to take guns away from law-abiding citizens”) vs. another almost completely irrelevant “counter” position (“Anybody who owns a gun has to take responsibility for using it safely and keeping it secure so it can’t be misused.”).

That’s just sick. How dare they use the words “clear and unambiguous” to describe the results of this shell game? Clearly, unambiguously, no propaganda technique is too low for the civilian disarmament industry. They will lie, cheat, mischaracterize and misdirect to further their agenda. An agenda that will cause untold death and lead to the erosion of all our rights.

Anyone who values their Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms should do what they can to tell the truth about guns, lest they get drowned out by the noise generated by those who would destroy this country’s way of life in the name of progress and safety.

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    • You can simply mute the sound, you know… might save you from a fatal cardiac arrest. Which would be tragic.

      You’re welcome.l

      • I keep my PC on mute as default. Only problem is, the silence makes the voices in my head seem louder…

        • Yeah, William… use the mute, and live to rage another day! Let that be thy creed!

    • Firefox and Adblocker Plus solves the problem. I hate to take money away from the site, but when it becomes intrusive I’m done with not just one of them all of them.

    • I haven’t noticed any of these intrusive ads. I use Opera, by the way. Best wishes with the technical problems.

      • IE is just screwed from the moment of birth. If we set out to make the crummiest browser on the planet, it would look a LOT like IE!! I am amazed at how many people have never tried anything else, and don’t know how many better choices there are.

        Choir. Preaching.

    • Every one of those statistics is a complete and total lie. I hope the authors of those “polls” have strokes and die.

    • The questions asked were completely useless. Why bother polling when the questions are so flawed? I know they don’t want real answers, they just want a propaganda poll to put into the media but still.

    • Anyone relying on facts and statistics to maintain government recognition of his or her inalienable rights is going to lose. This is not about facts, it is about emotion. Realize that people who want to restrict your RKBA are purposefully ignoring the facts (they are not stupid!) and playing down to ignorance, laziness and fear.

      I am a pro-2A liberal. Say what you want about me, but please read the following. Consider it enemy intelligence.

      I receive emails from many sources, and this one from (paid for by Organizing for Action) is pretty typical. Until the NRA engages at this level we are doomed. And the clock is running out.

      Dear Spoons —

      My dad, Reuven Rahamim, was killed this past September in a mass shooting.

      I was 17 years old, one of 15 children who lost a parent that day.

      I’m honoring his memory — and those of many others who have fallen — by doing something about gun violence.

      Whether you’ve been personally affected by gun violence or not, you need to be part of this fight, too. Share your story: Why are you in this?

      Since my dad’s death, I’ve learned that my family’s experience is not as uncommon as one might expect.

      The statistics are horrifying: 12,000 Americans are murdered with guns every year. But the true toll of gun violence is borne by the tens of thousands of sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, and wounded survivors left behind.

      When I think of the number of lives that could have been saved by universal background checks or better access to mental health services, I simply don’t understand why Congress doesn’t act right away.

      So join me in speaking out. Our stories from all across the country will reaffirm the all-too-real consequences of this unending violence and the need for sensible solutions. Share why you support legislation to keep dangerous weapons out of the wrong hands:

      I know my dad is watching right now as I fight alongside many other Americans for common-sense legislation.

      He deserves a vote. We all deserve a vote.

      Now is the time.



      Sami Rahamim
      Minneapolis, MN

      I reiterate my previous comments about not supporting the NRA. It has proven that it is not up for this fight. To Ralph and others: the NRA is worse than having no advocate at all. The NRA is sucking up resources that could be effectively deployed in other activities. The NRA has demonstrated that it not only does not know how to engage our adversaries, it does not even understand the terms of engagement.

      This is not a fair fight nor is it based on logic. If we continue to play by those rules we lose. Screw the NRA and screw the gun grabbers. We need effective representation NOW.

      • Yep, I also got this one today. Agree on all points, Spoons, and I’ll re-emphasize that the opposition is going full steam down the tear-jerking emotional manipulation route.

        Countering with facts and stats without emotional content to support it is NOT a winning strategy.

      • Nothig against you being liberal Spoons. Im more liberal than conservative on many issues.

        I dont think the grabbers are stupid, they should not be underestimated at all. My previous comment about “people will believe this” is directed at thoes who rely on the talking heads for their information. The ines who have to keep up with the Kardashians and have no clue about the real world cuz the TV thinks for them.

      • Every word a lie. Every word poses a false choice. EVERY WORD A TICKET TO HELL.

    • Who reads ‘1st Freedom’ and ‘American Hunter’ magazines, is an avid hunter or recreational shooter, and trust the govt or media? Pretty debased leftist propaganda.

  2. “remove that right legally: ditch or amend the Second Amendment.”

    This is pure bullshit. Rights can’t be removed by man or government unless the possessor of the right commits a crime. And then rights can only be removed as long as the person is being punished. Once the punishment has ended, the rights are full restored. Our rights preexist the United States and its Constitution. The Bill of Rights was required for ratification of the Constitution. The Bill of Rights has a preamble that most people have never read. Hell, most people haven’t even read the Constitution. The preamble states the reasons for the Bill of Rights. “THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.”

    Again, there is no legal way to infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms!

    • Amen. Even if the country were to repeal the 2nd amendment, that would not abrogate my natural right to defend myself. The 2nd amendment is supposed to be a limit on the Government and a reminder of (some) of the rights we have naturally.

    • Won’t stop them trying. Only true tragedy and realization of their own puppethood will.

  3. “demanddisarmament” kinda puts it right out there in the sunshine, where you rarely see these s.o.b.’s.

    I think this “study” is rigged from the get-go, but I know better than to count on the NRA rank and file to lend a helping hand. I wouldn’t p*** on the NRA if it’s heart was on fire.

    • I couldn’t agree more. The primary job of the NRA has been to lull all 2A supporters into a sense of “don’t worry, we’re on it” while real damage is done to our RKBA.

      The fight right now is for fence sitters — primarily the people so ignorant or lazy they don’t already have a position about their RKBA. These people don’t want to think, that takes work. Easier to check Facebook and skim YouTube. (This is not the audience of TTAG so your own experience doesn’t really help. Think instead about how hard it is to convince friends and co-workers to see how dangerous and stupid gun control is.)

      The NRA is failing to win hearts and minds. There is nothing to appeal to young families, nothing to appeal to urban working class, nothing to tug on the heart strings of soccer moms. Maybe we are the silent majority, but the vocal minority is going to ram through some pretty restrictive laws if the conversation doesn’t take a quick turn in our favor — just the way Sandy Hook mobilized them.

      Not only has the NRA failed to engage effectively, it has wasted precious time that is lost forever. That the NRA leadership fails to act with a sense of urgency, or to fight emotional rhetoric with emotional rhetoric, is about as clear a message as we will get that they are not up for the fight.

      Who will represent us? SAF and Cato are on my list, but neither is executing a front line, offensive strategy. We need to keep it short. Keep it simple. And hit back where they feel it.

    • I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been distrustful and disdainful of the NRA for a quarter-century now. That membership/dues thing? Better spent on guns and ammo, if you can find any. Time to reverse-engineer some plowshares into swords.

  4. I question which NRA they polled. 52% of National Rifle Association members believe that the government has the right to take away your guns? That’s about as deep as fecal matter gets

  5. Something I am curious about in regard to amending the Constitution.
    The Bill of Rights, are the first ten amendments, all added at the same time. These are inalienable rights, God given, so to speak. No politician or government can take them away.

    So with that rationale, can the Bill of Rights truly be amended? If no piece of legislation can take away your god given rights, then you could not amend the Constitution to take any of them away…the document would work against itself in that respect. So wouldn’t the Bill of Rights, those first ten amendments, stand separately from the rest of the amendments?

  6. Does anyone else find it ironic that “Mayors Against Illegal Guns” are ONLY spending their time going after legal guns? I’m pretty sure illegally-owned guns are the entirety of the problem.

  7. Looks like they forgot to ask me, so here’s what I have to say.

    The brutal fact of the matter is that if MIAG, the MSM, and the anti-gun politicians do not quickly cease and desist from their war on the rest of humanity a whole lot of people are going to get hurt or die, and this country will descend into a civil war, the likes of which have not been seen on the face of this Earth. There is only but a little time left for them to turn away from their course of hatred and insanity. I wish it were not so, but make no mistake, I will fight, and fight to the death, against anyone who usurps our God-given rights. It’s already torn apart my family, so I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass about hurting anyone else’s feelings. Go away, Bloomberg, et al. Just. Go. Away.

    That about clear enough?


    • That ancient Chinese curse: “May you live in interesting times”? We’re on the brink of living it. A nice punctuation mark at the end of my life. Always wanted to “make a difference”? Opportunity is fixing to knock; will you answer?

  8. choice 1 = club baby seals to death with butt of gun
    choice 2 = use gun to rob & murder your neighbors
    headline = 99% of gun owners club baby seals

  9. Actually, 600 is more than enough for a sample, statistically, so the sample size is actually fine. How they selected the responses and framed the questions? Now that is another question….

    • Agreed. Do a search for sample size calculator and 600 is plenty for pretty much any survey where random bias is eliminated…oh, wait, did they eliminate random bias? Were the questions constructed in a non-biased manner? Why aren’t they showing those data points?

      • You are correct; there’s noting inherently wrong with the size of the sample. Now… as to the other things that are wrong….

    • 600 randomly selected can be good enough. However, 600 randomly selected from, for example, one city obviously has bias. I don’t know if we’re to assume that “a random sample of 1,800 likely voters” means randomly selected from every adult in the nation. Any given adult isn’t necessarily a likely voter. Does he need to be “politically active” to make him likely? Does he need a certain type/level of education? Does this include just one region/city?

      I agree though that most of the disfigurement in this type of survey would likely come from inaccurate language. Looking at the results, it’s extremely inaccurate. Technically speaking, I would answer the “blue” response to some of the questions, but obviously I don’t believe in the conclusions drawn and actions resulting from respondents answering blue.

      • If well selected (i.e., properly randomized), a population of 30 will generate valid results.

    • I don’t thinkl 600 is an adequate sample of a 2.5 million member organization. That’st something like .024% of the entire organization? It may be large enough to considered a valid sample but I doubt it’s relavant to the organization as a whole. Maybe if they took 600 per region but they didn’t. And where did they get those 600 to sample? The NE? I am sure if you sampled the South ot South West you’d get entirely different results.

      And two weeks after Sandy Hook? We were all a bit shell shocked but that’s hardly relevant now that people have had time to look at the big picture and calm down.

  10. Yeah, right. That would clash with legitimate polling from Rasmussen:

    57% Think Enforcing Current Gun Laws More Important Than Creating New Laws
    74% Think Americans Have Constitutional Right To Own A Gun

    • What is sad is that 26% of those polled do not believe we have a constitutionally protected right to bear arms.

  11. A great resource for these sorts of discussions is:

    So, according to the latest poll, which is CBS’ 6-10 Feb one (and let’s note that this is CBS, not ordinarily considered a very pro-2a group) 52% of folks are in favor of a new AWB (vs MAIG’s 71%).

    Naturally Dems are more in favor than Inds, much less Reps. Any idea how the NRA breaks down by Party?

    If you scroll down you’ll see other fairly recent polls put the AWB in the mid-high 50%s.

  12. Reason Magazine had a poll showing the majority of Americans opposed to the AWB. It’s amazing how much people will respond to subtle differences in how the question is worded.

    • You mean like, “will you sign this petition to end women’s suffrage? We think women have suffered enough!”

  13. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a new wingnut catchphrase. It is: “common sense gun violence prevention legislation.” I guess that “common sense gun control laws” wasn’t playing in Peoria.

    All tr0lls, wingnuts and squib loads — pay attention. Further references to “common sense gun control laws” have been banned by the Comintern.

  14. “Figures Don’t Lie, But Liars Do Figure…” sure seems appropriate here… I hope everybody reading this site knows better by now…

  15. Just more proof that Bloomberg and his crew are just a bunch of dishonest people who will use any means to further their agenda.

  16. Gee, a survey paid for by the Criminal Mayors Against Civilian Gun Ownership – hmmm, wonder if they might be using it to advance their agenda?

    Hey, Bloomie and Friends – I’m an NRA member, and your little group of power-drunk billionaires doesn’t speak for me. Here’s my position on the AWB and all of the other “reasonable” gun laws and “compromises” you statist powerfreaks are pushing: FOAD.

  17. 57 percent of Americans were never caught shooting someone to death.// We must have a plan, well, grab your binoculars-look through a crystal ball & gaze on this pricks, get rid of your criminal safe zones, I love it when a plan comes together(& when a run on sentence ends), Randy

  18. Would the NRA or SAF sponsor a Gallup pole with real questions please? This lunacy has got to stop!

    • How about a poll about polling?

      Q1. “Most polls are designed to ellicit a response that is in agreement with the political positions of the groups’ funding the polls.” Agree or Disagree

      Q2. “Only an ignoramus would spend the time it takes to answer poll questions.” Agree or Disagree

      Q3. “Only idiots believe the results of polls.” Agree or Disagree

      Q4. “Only politicians are idiotic enough to think that policy should be guided by polls.” Agree or Disagree

  19. A random sample that just happens to include exactly 400 gun owners and 200 NRA members? What a happy coincidence! I’m sure they didn’t carefully select a non-random sample who would go along with their leading questions….

    • Doing some back-of-the-envelope style calculations:

      There are 300 million Americans.

      About 100 million Americans vote in the presidential elections.

      There are 50 – 100 million gun owners, depending on whose figures you believe. ( 15% – 33% of the population)

      There are 5 million NRA members. ( 02% of the population )

      0,400/1,800 respondents of this poll claimed to be gun owners. At 22%, that’s plausible.

      But 0,200/1,800 respondents who claimed to be NRA members is over 10% of the respondents, compared to 02% of the population. Where are the extra 30 million NRA members that we don’t know about?

      Something here does not add up.

      • How much do you want to bet the respondents were from New York City or Chicago, or some other democratic nest?

  20. I realize there’s rounding involved in poll questions like these, but in a lot of cases, the percentages they are giving don’t add up to 100% or even 99%.

    In the first pic, the “All” and “Gun Owners” numbers each add up to 96%. The “NRA” one at least gets to 98%. In the second pic (Table 4), the numbers only add up to 91%. And in the last one, “All” get to 97%, while “Gun Owners” and “NRA” both reach 98%.

  21. Why do you bother reading enemy propaganda? This is so unscientific and full of crap.

    I saw the survey and my bullcrap meter went thre the roof!

  22. Someone brought this up to me in conversation a week ago and the first thing I said was 100 million gun owners and you want to use a poll of 1,800. Thats absurd.

  23. I emailed the publisher of the study.

    I was reading the survey provided in this article:

    Poll of NRA Members Shows Strong Support for Common-Sense Gun Laws, Exposing Significant Divide Between Rank-and-File Members and NRA Leadership

    And notice in the report that the survey questions and methodology are absent. Therefore there is nothing that can be concluded from these reported results. Yet the author of the report makes a strong claim in his conclusion of the report. This suggests the possibility of a flawed scientific study and possible negligence on part of the researcher conducting the study.

    You would be well within your rights to demand this missing information from the research company, and if the study was found to be flawed you would be well within your rights to demand your money back.

    If you have the missing information in your possession, please make it public and I will analyze the integrity of the study free of charge. I do this for a living.


  24. Here’s what they probably used:
    Favor: Children should be protected from gun violence.
    Oppose: Everyone should have guns without regulation.

    I’m actually surprised the stats weren’t more skewed, like “110% of people favor gun control”.

  25. 81% of the general population support renewing the federal ban on assault weapons? LMAO. That is the old advertising/sales technique of ‘jumping on the band wagon’: “…and you should buy abc soap too because everyone else is buying it and only fools aren’t buying it. You don’t want to be a fool and social outcast, do you?”

  26. I’m sure MAIG would never be dishonest about the survey either… Liberal politicians lie with the same amount of ease that it takes most folks to breathe.

  27. The questions can be characterized as follows;

    A) Areas where Gun Owners DISAGREE with our specific agenda.

    B) Areas where Gun Owners AGREE with popular opinion.

    Hence the “false choice” label. Whats worse is the phrasing that insinuates that Gun Owners do not accept responsibility, when in fact the numbers are weighted heavily in the affirmative because the numbers include gun-owner that do agree with the vague generalizations that are not actually topic specific.

  28. I have not and will not renew my NRA membership until they get more aggressive and start taking the fight to the enemy. If they do not, they’ve lost my support and the support of any that I can influence.

  29. All these polls are crap…they sample 50 people out of the millions of us involved and claim that proves something?

    I’ve yet to be invited to a poll on the subject, and I can’t find any to participate in!

    I’ve conducted a poll here in my office, and 75% of us support the 2nd ammendment. There are only four of us in the office, but that makes it right…doesn’t it?

  30. Common sense would tell me if MAIG and other gun grabbers have to push all these stats (or so they call them) and have all the public meetings to gain support for these gun control bills, then maybe there is not much support for them. But isn’t that how the first awb got passed? kind of swept under the rug and all of the sudden there was a ban without much support.

  31. I remember an extended discussion of polling that took place on PJMedia pre-election. The upshot that was that NO poll is reliable, because only a tiny percentage of those contacted respond to the poll. Thus, the sample is self-selected and can never be considered truly random.

  32. Both the damned liars that made (fabricated) these stats and any idiots incompetent enough to believe them should be removed from the gene pool.

  33. Ohhh, they polled the National Restuarant Association. I knew no one who reads ’1st Freedom’ and ‘American Hunter’ magazines, is an avid hunter or recreational shooter, would trust the govt and the complacent media.

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