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“Six police officers unleashed a barrage of some 60 bullets after a Texas man refused repeated orders to drop a weapon, later found to be a BB gun. Jose Walter Garza, 30, never spoke when police spent five minutes at a Laredo truck stop ordering him to drop the replica pistol, but eventually ‘raised the weapon in the direction of a police officer,’ Investigator Joe Baeza, the Laredo, Texas, police spokesman told the NY Daily News.” Sounds like a good shoot. Except for the large number of bullets sent in Mr. Garza’s direction – unleashed by six officers in six seconds. And the congratulatory fist-bump. And the fact that cops confiscated a BB gun from Mr. Garza earlier in the evening (i.e. he should have been taken into custody then). Your thoughts?

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  1. A few of the more creative police accounts of similar situations make me think I should wait for the videos to come out. I want to believe the boys but history teaches jumping to conclusions either way is a prelude to correction. Fist bumps mean whatever you read into them.

  2. Sorry but I say good shoot… So what if it was a BB gun you point what looks like a firearm at a CCW holder in a threatening manner we would call it a good shoot. One less bad guy we have to feed and cloth for X amount of years while he gets more criminal schooling.

    • I agree that the shooting is justified but 60 shots into 1 man really. You think that a CCW holder would not be prosecuted for 10 shots. I’m sorry but if you believe that you live in fantasy land . Talk about overkill.

      • I have a better question, if CCW holder in some states can only carry 10, why do the police get to shoot 60? The argument is that the CCW never needs more than 10, but amazingly the cops need 60.

        • Six cops shooting, five of whom with ARs, I’m really only surprised that they didn’t fire 150+ rounds.

          I do find it interesting there’s no reporting of how many shots actually hit the deceased, though.

      • If the police had justification to shoot, it’s normal for several (or all) to do so. Shoot until to threat is gone. It can take more than six seconds for that to happen with human physiology, and it also takes time to recognize it. That can equal 6 or 60 shots.

        I haven’t watched the video though so I’m assuming they aren’t pouring fire into him seconds after the gun is out of his hand and he’s on the ground.

        • An officer had to kick the pistol away from him after going down. They had no clear view of it till then.

        • Just watch the first 2 minutes, the actual fire engagement is over in the first 40 or so seconds, the supposed fist bump before the 2 minute mark.

      • Nah. Each man stopped him. The shooting only lasted 6 seconds. There were just a bunch of shooters. Given all apparent facts, clearly suicide by cop, forget it and move on.

    • They had taken a bb gun from him earlier in the day. They were informed that he had a bb gun just prior to the shoot. I guess that is why the decided they needed 5 AR15’s and a pistol.

      • Bronco you are an idiot. The day you assume its a BB gun is the day you may die.

        They have real guns that are made to look like BB guns with the orange tip, as well as a super soaker that is a real gun.

        Sorry, cops just can’t take that chance in assuming its just a BB gun and it won’t kill you. We like to get home to our families.

        If you want to take that chance Bronco, I applaud your gumption and idiocy.

        • That is total bovine fecal matter. Are you trying to say that one man is going to shoot up all ten cops? Maybe I am just lucky, but I have been yanking toy guns out of peoples hands for 22 year now. I’ll tell you exactly what the problem is with this mess. It is called 10 cops all pointing guns, screaming hollering and cussing like a bunch of fools at a mentally distubed person. They took a situation that was controlable to a point where the subject is confused and disorented. They hyped themselves up, and they hyped up the subject, then they shot him full of holes. Yep it was justified, but it is still murder any way you want to paint it.

        • Nope they can’t but they can approach the situation in a cool calm manner and not confuse the mentally impared subject with a bunch of yelling, hollering and gun pointing. Here is a clue for you. There is nothing so important, and no place you have to be that you can’t take the time to defuse the situation. When you get into someones face and start yelling it is called “Insightment to battery.” And no one responds well to screaming, cusing and hollering especally the mentally impaired man with toy gun. All you are going to do is confuse and disorentent them. Don’t care what you have been trained to do, common sense shoud take over at some point. Well, obviously not. The man is dead. I remember when cops used to talk people down now they just shoot them down.

        • I think I’m agreeing with Thomas, here. I have no problem with the number of shots, even the fist bump. I do have a problem with the fact there were so many cops there with evil assault rifles. Seems like two would be plenty. And about 4-5 shots would have been fired. If the department has nothing better for all those people to do, it should be shrunk by about 80%, let taxpayers keep their money.

      • The best weapon you have is the one between your ears, use that first and you won’t have to shoot the kid with the bb gun. It is called situational awareness, and if you are walking around with a loaded weapon you best be using it. If not then perhaps you should keep your gun at home before you end up shooting some kid playing cop and robbers.

    • Because we are mere citizens. Own a badge, and life crippling offenses become wrist slaps.

      “A rule for thee but not for me.”

    • Also, even if it was completely justified, if two non-cops were grinning and fist-bumping after dumping multiple magazines into a perp, you KNOW that they would be seeing jail time for homicide or manslaughter.

      • Correct.

        That’s one of the things that got Feds to notice the the Albuquerque PD. And of course the skinhead with the long arm initiated the fist bump. Just Operator as Hell.

    • Cops do have to stop when the threat is gone.

      Tell you what, I’ll raise a gun at you and we’ll see if you only fire one or two rounds to stop me from killing you.

      Are you sure those one or two rounds will stop me immediately?
      Or will you perhaps fire many rounds to do your best to stop me from killing you and going home to your family.

      Seriously, I would say that the ignorance of the people on this site astounds me, but unfortunately the typical American today is so unbelievably ignorant to common sense, logical matters it’s disgusting and depressing….. just look at the riots in Ferguson before anyone knows any of the facts.

      But facts don’t matter to many people. Its a darn shame.

      Ok enough with the rant

      • Remind me not to buy the bullets cops buy. Apparently they don’t work worth a crap and fly all over the place like birdshot from a shotgun blast.

        I could also throw in “why didn’t they taser him before he raised the gun? Along with the fist bumbs makes it sound like someone wanted to do some shooting.

        In all honesty I will give the cops the benefit of the doubt until more info (if any) comes out about it,

        • DBM, if I get a call about a guy with a gun, I’m not going to have my taser in my hand.

          Much less get within 21feet of the guy with the gun to attempt to tase him.

      • First I would hope you are not so stupid to point a toy gun at me. If I have been standing in front of you for five minutes I have had more than enough time to determine if the gun you have is real or a toy. My eyes might be bad but they aren’t that bad.

  3. One step closer to Civil War 2.0.

    Can’t trust the government (we all knew that), but we also can not trust the police officer in the patrol vehicle down the street.

    I’m not suggesting they are all bad cops, but it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the entire bunch.

    • +1000…I got no idea how this is a good or bad shoot. I sped through the video several time. Just so long as the POleece get home safe…

    • Ridiculous conclusion. Individaual should be judged by their own actions. It’s no different than me saying ” I’m not suggesting you’re a mass murderer, but it only takes one bad gun enthusiast to spoil the whole bunch”.

      Too many extremes exist from one view to the other. The truth lies in between.

      • It’s no different than me saying ” I’m not suggesting you’re a mass murderer, but it only takes one bad gun enthusiast to spoil the whole bunch”.

        See: Open Carry Tarrant County.

    • Another person who not-so-secretly actually wants civil war / societal collapse so that they can live out their post-apocalyptic fantasies, and to justify the 10k rounds of 5.56 in the closet. About 50% of the viewers here these days.

    • Was he really a “bad guy”? It seems to me that someone in that situation would have the self preservation to follow the orders of the people with guns pointed at them, especially if those orders were to drop a BB gun that those with actual firearms perceived as a possible threat. It seems to me that the man was troubled mentally and felt the end would be welcomed. The fist bump would be a death sentence to use second class (badgeless) citizens, but these men will probably be told the celebrating was a little uncouth.

      • Unless you can identify with 100% certainty that it was a toy, if someone is point something you believe is a gun, you are going to shoot as well. I am willing to bet with the number of illegals crossing the border, many will not even understand the commands from the police and this incident here will be repeated frequently.

        • The manager of the truck stop claims the police were informed that it was a toy. Plus they initiated the shooting. Several customers were nearly hit by the cross fire from these skin heads.

        • The way to determine with 100% certainty is to pick it up after he drops it. If he refuses to drop it, then it is real. Period. If, instead of dropping it, he moves to point it at anyone, drop him. Stop shooting when he is down. Fist bump or not, irrelevant.

    • suicide by cop?

      I’m assuming the fist bump was before they realized it was an airsoft. I bet that was an “Aww, cr@p” moment.

    • What “bad guy” are you referring to? The deceased here had a well known history with the local police, having a record of 60 arrests. He’d been committed to a state facility in 2010 for being suicidal. He’d even had police contact as recently as that same night, during which they’d relieved him (without any shots fired, by the way) of his BB gun.

      He promptly went to Walmart and bought another one, though, plus a bottle of booze, and here we are at the truck stop. I’m seeing a deeply disturbed and distressed individual in need of hospitalization, not a bad guy to be executed.

      These cops knew what they were responding to and just seized the opportunity to notch a kill. They had other options. In the end, we all know this was suicide by cop. We all know he would’ve killed himself one way or another, sooner or later, anyway. Still, these cops gleefully gunned him down, knowing we’d have to give them a pass. That ought to scare you to death that there are cops out there just *waiting* for the opportunity to blow someone away.

      • Sorry. No bleeding hearts, here. 60+ arrests equals “bad guy”, excuses and spins notwithstanding.

  4. Sounds like a good shoot. Sixty shots by six cops, 10 a piece, not bad actually considering how fast things happen with the adrenaline dump and all.

    Arrested for having a BB gun, why? Is it illegal? Unless he was doing something else illegal, there would be no reason to arrest him earlier.

    Fist bump, well, after it’s all over and your glad to be alive, your buddies are alive and the guy you were thinking had a real gun is down and no longer a threat, yeah, a congratulatory fist bump wouldn’t be out of line. But the delicate sensibilities of the public and how metro-sexualized they’ve become would probably, since everything is recorded, it would be better to keep it on the down low.

    • “Arrested for having a BB gun, why? Is it illegal? Unless he was doing something else illegal, there would be no reason to arrest him earlier. “

      Why were they there to begin with? Well, that would depend on what he was doing to get them called. Pointing a gun, even a BB gun, at someone is a crime. Could have been a number of things, I guess.

  5. I have to wonder if this is a case of “suicide by cop”. If the article was accurate and I read it correctly, the police gave the man 5 minutes to drop his firearm. That is plenty of time.

      • Gun and badge are kind of a universal language. Even if you fear they are corrupt or criminal, gesturing suddenly towards six armed men with badges is suicide. If I see that I’m dropping whatever is in my hands reflexively.

  6. While a good shoot.
    It seems to be yet another suicide by cop.
    It also shows what might happen to anyone in a life threating situation.
    6 cops 60 shots is a tad excessive, but I wasn’t there,
    I don’t think but don’t know if I had a house invader Id fire 10 shots or till empty.
    I hope to never find out.

      • He died as a result of his decision to point a gun at the cops. He did it to himself.

        Real, BB, Airsoft, doesn’t much matter and I don’t expect cops to always be able to figure it out in the heat of the moment unless it’s neon green and says Nerf or Super Soaker on it.

        If he was driven to do this from mental illness, then that is a shame and I feel bad for his survivors and family.

        If he did this due to intoxication or drug use, then I don’t have quite so much sympathy aside from sympathy for the human condition and our propensity to do stupid things with tragic results.

        • The issue isn’t the fact that he died, the issue is that we post videos of people being killed, which is a snuff film. I think the cheering of says a lot about a culture if we praise or constantly post videos showing the killing of individuals. Rather primal.

          • Then you need to stop watching them. As stated in another thread today, Individual Liberty entails certain individual responsibilities which must be decided and practiced by individuals.

        • 60 rounds & fist bumps aside I bought 2 airsoft guns at a flea market today exact size & color as a G17 & G26. All the way to 9×19 marked & almost Glock logo on the grip, no orange tip & a 9mm fits perfectly in the end even fits a G17 holster. 5 minutes it is likely that they gave commands in spanish also, @ least in TX.

          60 rounds is a bit much but if it was NYPD probably only 2 rounds on target and a reload to boot. You have suicide by cop every week, since they don’t have the guts to live or do it thereself (barring mental illness). The fist bump not something I would do but until you have been in a situation thinking your about to die you don’t know.

      • The word “deserved” is inappropriate and has no place in a discussion of anything more important than ice-cream. They didn’t decide that he “deserved” to doe, they decided that when he pointed a gun at them the time to try and figure out if it was real had ended.

  7. That’s quite a few rounds, but a good shoot is a good shoot. A post-shooting fist bump doesn’t change that.

    I do a fair amount of fist bumping (for a white guy, anyways) at work. It could be after a good arrest, or just after I’ve talked to a driver for awhile.

      • I agree that it isn’t appropriate, but there are times in life when you’re just happy to have survived – just happy to still be alive. And I’m not arresting anyone for a fist bump, nor for firing 60 rounds, even if they’re from a single mag, so long as those shots are reasonably justified.

    • Yes, but you know damn well that if us lowly peasants fist-bumped after dumping 60 rounds into one person that you’d be arresting us and we’d see jail time.

      • Actually, the amount of rounds and the “celebration” after are irrelevant. If a private citizen shoots, they will be taking a ride (detainment and statement), regardless. Whether the evidence shows a good or bad shoot is the deciding factor of arrest. If it is a good shoot, but the local prosecutor wants to make an example of you, then the celebration and volume of fire comes into play.

        I won’t say this is a bad shoot, but these guys acted very unprofessionally. Taking a life, no matter the circumstances, is deserving of celebration. This is what happens when the value of human life is not properly taught starting at a young age. This is also symptomatic of some officers believing they are above the rest of the populace.

  8. When you know your every move before, during, and after shooting a perp will be analyzed and debated for months if not years after the incident, you should have the strength of mind to not behave as a juvenile in the presence of a camera.

    • I fought a mugger in which he was trying to severely injure or kill me; after the mugger ran away there was such a rush of relief and with the adrenaline that was rushing through me that I did something “juvenile” and yelled a couple of times at the top of my voice, just as an expression of relief, of victory and to drain some of the energy that I still had. (This is the event that got me to carrying a gun)

      In my opinion, If after a shooting situation in which the cops seriously thought they might get a bullet in the face; then just doing a fist bump afterward is showing incredible control.

  9. I just watched part of the video.
    Im surprised no one kicked him to see if he would have moved.
    Handcuffing an obviously ventilated body is also kind of weird to me.

    • Actually, it is ‘standard practice.’ We were trained to do that, anyway. We were told, “You are not a doctor and cannot legally pronounce someone dead. Put the cuffs on them.” That’s the short version, anyway.

      • I was trained to only leave step-ons. Securing prisoners was a whole different matter, of course. When it came to enemy lying on ground/floor/deck we were taught that a body with a weapon was still an active threat and to treat it accordingly.

      • I was first on scene to a fatal crash. An Asian female rolled her SUV in the rain, which landed on its roof, and took the top of her head off on a railroad tie sticking through a guardrail. Her brain – most of it – was in the #1 lane. While I could announce her death, I did not legally pronounce it. That was a gnarly crash.

        • First on scene usually sux. I EMTed for a while after leaving Army, rural south MS, and had that unique experience a couple of times. I really hated the screamers and the burn victims.

  10. Always wonder how the pros get away with this type of thing when we mere mortals are tasked to a higher level of responsibility.

    • What is it that you think they got away with?

      He had an object in his hand that any reasonable person would assume was a real firearm. He pointed it at the cops after refusing to drop it. He got shot. As a result of his decisions he died.

      End of story.

  11. 60 shot seems a bit excessive. Before anyone jumps on me about adrenaline dump let me just say I’ve been in combat. Allow me to counter with trigger discipline. This is not a random joe confronting a home invader, these are supposed to be professionals. You shoot till the threat ends, well it stopped after the first few shots if you slow down the playback. Good shoot? Perhaps as the camera angle doesn’t show the standoff. I’m sure the post shoot investigation will say yes, but then when you investigate yourself it typically comes out in your favor. Based on the story it seems good but again viewing the video and knowing the round count…. I see more interesting conversations with my sister in law. (Jersey City, NJ cop)

  12. Laredo is a major point of entry for drugs. The smugglers and dealers are killing each other right and left. As with all law enforcement in the U.S. the LPD has not impacted the import of controlled substances but they can take out a guy with a BB gun. I gotta ask these cops; Is this the best you can do? You pansies.

  13. Stupid guy doing a stupid thing got his reward. My complaint here is that in these days of ammo shortages 60 rounds seems a bit extravagent.

    Maybe the officers that missed should have to pay for the extra ammo.

  14. OK, sat through the entire video, after it finally decided to run, and never saw a fist bump. Saw several of the officers in the early minutes raising their right arm with fist closed, which commonly means stop coming towards me or do not enter an area.

    • At about 1:23-1:26

      Mild fist bump.

      But more of a “Hey good buddy” fist bump. But still, there’s a dude on the ground in a big pool of blood. So, maybe fist bump at Denny’s after the shift is over. But that’s like just my opinion.

      • The one cop’s body is in front of camera veiw, I honestly can’t say. The bald officer who kicked the weapon away makes several arm and hand gestures before he moves away, at least once holding up closed fist towards people walking from his front/right, and waves and points several times in other directions. From all the hoopla I was expecting something more blatant.

  15. what if a police officer points a gun at me if i’m not doing anything? can i shoot him? seems that if i am afraid of being shot by anyone i have the same rights as they do … ? i appreciate what police do, but i am always thinking that they are quick to fire first. this is obviously going to rile some people up, so maybe consider it more for a point of discussion than a reason to put forth ad hominem attacks. i’m trying to see what the real line is, if there is one, and also where it SHOULD be. just arguendo

    • Twice in my life I have had cops point guns at me. Both times I followed their directions and recieved no new holes in my body.

      The legal system and society at large give cops the right to point guns at others for a just reason. You may question that reason at the moment it’s happening, but the smart move is to comply.

      If in your on the spot judgement of the situation is to assert your sovereign citizen rights and decide to resist the cop with deadly force you must then be prepared for the aftermath. If you survive you will be facing a murder charge.

      But since you’re not likely to survive you won’t have to face a long and wasting effort to keep yourself out of prison.

      • Well, except for Henry Magee in Texas that killed a cop that was doing a swat invasion of his home in Burleson, Texas. The guy wasn’t shot by the other swat members and the Grand Jury refused to indict. I guess because they decided he was justified in the use of deadly force because he didn’t know for sure they were cops and not criminals invading his home.

        But having that happen is like winning the lottery, not getting shot by the other swat members in particular. and then not being indicted for murder would be next on the list. Most of the time, you would be right.

        • But what happened to Henry should be the accepted legal norm. If I survive a violent home invasion of heavily armed men that haven’t proven their Bona fides by showing a warrant and proving that they are actually cops, then anyone I kill in defense of my castle is justified.

          But if that was an accepted legal norm, the courts never would have accepted no knock warrants in the first place. What a rape, what a violation of the basic right from unreasonable searches and seizures. The right of due process. The right to be innocent until proven guilty.

          No knock warrants, what an abomination.

          • Got to agree. If cops are unwilling to come to my door, in an actual police uniform, knock and present a warrant then something is seriously wrong.

            Are there times for no-knock? Damned right there are. Known violent criminals that have to be taken by surprise, drug dealers, coyotes, armed robbery crews, plain old wacked out crazies. And a judge and a prosecutor should sign off BEFORE the actual event, not after. Doc-u-mentation. An actual legal justification before the fact. That is what no-knock is undermining in the eyes of the public. Same as illegal surveillance. This sh*t is pissing people off, and it is not going to end well. Already hasn’t for a lot of innocent people around the country, to be honest.

        • I agree about no knock warrants. They should only be used in extreme cases. And that case was a man in bed in his home. A reasonable doubt about who was invading his home existed. I wonder what other charges he faced and what if any stuck?

          A uniformed cop with a badge on the street in a whole other matter.

          • I remember reading about that. The guy was a known drug dealer and bad ass. Instead of serving a search warrant during the day these idiot cops toss a flash bang grenade into his bedroom while he was asleep and then try to climb through the window. The guy grabbed his gun and started firing at the unknown midnight home invaders. Find it hard to get a tear for the idiot cops that were shot.

    • The relevant Texas law says:

      (c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
      (1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting
      at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make
      the arrest or search; and
      (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is
      immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer’s (or other
      person’s) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

      However, during the required CHL class the instructor (who was a retired cop) covered this section of the law by pointing out that the police are the largest street gang in the world, and if you shoot one his backup won’t care about why.

    • If a cop points a gun at you can you shoot him you ask?

      Are you friggin’ serious?

      Here, let me help you out with that, No. You cannot shoot at the police.

      The line is this, the police are empowered by society to do things that other citizens are generally not allowed to do. This includes holding people at gun point and arresting them. Being arrested is not a self defense scenario.

      • “The line is this, the police are empowered by society to do things that other citizens are generally not allowed to do.”

        This is precisely why a few ‘bad’ cops ruin it for the rest. Cops are, by the nature of their job, given power, authority, and force. And when it is abused or inappropriately used, the public, quite rightly, gets angry and learns to distrust police. Even worse, when one of the relatively few bad actors steps out of line, there is the perception that the first reaction of the police is to close ranks around one of their own. Maybe that’s not unlike the initial opposite reaction of the press but it doesn’t change the fact that cops should be above board all of the time.

      • The scenario is a fantasy. Let me try. If a cop is pointing a gun at you, you either have a gun in your hand or you do not. Claiming you aren’t doing anything means you do not. Whether you are legally entitled to or not, attempting to draw on a LEO who is pointing a gun at you before you start would be textbook suicide by cop, the question is irrelevant. If you DO have a gun in your hand, you know damn well why the cop is pointing a gun at you, dropping whatever is in your hands would be a really good plan. Duh.

  16. Yeah, doing some research, it seems like a good shot ultimately but with an excessive amount of shots by the police. These guys are supposed to be highly trained, moreso than the average human if we are to believe the hype, so they shouldn’t be doing mag dumps in these type of situation. I firmly believe that police must use greater firearms control than they currently do. Two, three shots then assess, just like normal people are supposed to do. However, if the police are facing a large group or multiple persons with fully automatic weapons I can accept mag dumps.
    The fist bump, while appearing inappropriate, really isn’t a problem. I’m quite confident it was more of a “holy hell bro we survived some scary shit” as opposed to a “hell yeah we killed someone” moment. Again, it would be nice if police were able to exercise incredible self-control at all times, especially since they above all others should know that there is video taping almost everywhere, it’s not terrible.

    • I don’t think it was planned. If there had been two cops then it might have been twenty shots fired.

      I’m guessing in that tense situation, one fires, they all fire until the threat is down. Is that official procedure, unofficial street procedure or just instinctive response?

      Is this a training issue? Dunno. Unless the training is to be that only the sergeant can make the call and take the shot. That doesn’t seem realistic though unless we adopt the UK model of only certain police on duty during a shift are armed with firearms. Doesn’t seem realistic for the US.

      So I guess the solution is to go back to revolvers. Then there would have only been 36 shots fired. Unless they would have had speed loaders. Then anything goes.

      • I don’t think it was planned either and I’m not sure of the timeline of shots but it does on the surface seem like an excessive amount of shooting. I would think that controlled shooting would be best in most situations.

  17. Sorry but 60 rounds by 6 cops is 10 shots each…hardly excessive for a handgun that likely holds between 13 and 18 rounds each.

  18. Do cops there have automatic weapons? Sounds like it. How many hit the guy and how many hit all around the truckstop?

    • Actually you can see several rds hit the structure and that concrete island in the mid ground of the camera view.

        • Stress will do that, especially if you have a low level of training, which most PDs are guilty of. Training costs money and time, something most local PDs don’t want “waste” on weapons training.

          • I used to be a weapons training office in the army and I would demonstrate why most full auto fire was useless. Unless you train alot you can’t hit jack after the second shot. Rapid firing by pulling the trigger repeatedly is a sure way of missing a lot. IN NYC the safest place is standing in front of the perp.

            • Do not get me started on troops and full auto. A complete waste 99.9 percent of the time. Its that .1 everyone always trots out. Ever body wants dat giggle switch, just in-case. 😉

              • You got that right. I used to Rambo 1 or 2 M-60 MGs loaded with tracer only belts. It was a real Hoot but it also demo’d how much BS Rambo and other movie guys are.

              • Had an instructor at Ft Sill who did the mag dump demo with M16 at shoulder, and then held at waist. It was a good illustration of how widely rds scatter on full auto. And he did better from the waist than shoulder, 3 rds in target and shoulder only had one.

                Did get to do some walking fire training with M60 in one battalion, only 20 rd in belt, the course was 75 meters from go line to check line with 5 random popups. None of us had rds left for #4 and 5. Rather sobering.

                Oh, for the days before TRADOC f**ked training up.

              • I went through Basic in 76 and Infantry Officer Basic in 84. In OBC we had people die and permanently disabled and it was considered no big deal. Nowadays you and your children would go to jail if one of the snowflakes was to stub his toe in basic.

        • 1. This was a good shoot. Click through to the linked article – the photo shows a pretty good replica of a Springfield XD. There’s no way an officer would be able to tell that was a fake.
          2. Without knowing anything else, this sounds like suicide-by-cop.

          • Didnt say it want a good shoot and suicide by cop looks to be what happened. My problem is that as a group cops have started shooting everyone across the country.

          • Yes they did bring those back and they get weekend passes after the 4th week of basic. They also get to keep their cell phones and weekend training is verboten. Years ago I had one of these cup cakes mother file a Congressional against me because I didn’t let her pumpkin seed sleep in until noon on sunday and bring him breakfast in bed. After I got through with him the rest of the company stood in line to tell their mothers not to do it to them.

              • No, really. Can’t over stress them. They will write a letter to their CongressCritter or the RedCross rep if you do.

            • I talk with a lot of young troops and a lot of old troops. Pups all say they thought it would be harder, gray beards all shake their heads and say “What the f**k is my Army coming to?”.

        • Out blowing off some ammo in Vietnam, I had a large tire I was shooting down at, maybe 25 yards away, one of the very few times I did a mag dump (we only had 20-rd mags). From the hip, trying for the tire center, impacts initially missed, but I was able to walk them into the center, probably a 30 inch opening. But, without the dirt background so I could see the impacts, I’d have missed with every shot.

          • The very essence of spray&pray! Funny thing is, take your fireteam troops out and let them practice this and it becomes a bit more controlled. Still spraying, a bit less praying, and still wasting piles of ammo that you got to hump with you in indian country.

        • I went through basic at Knox in 2004, and we never got “stress” cards. However, I did hear about it from younger troops, so I asked them one day if it was really true. One of them said yes, but they only got three or four of them. And the Drill Sergeants would makes sure you used them all up within the first week. I’m guessing they did away with them after that.

          • Stress cards? Never heard of them on Parris Island in 89. Quarter deck and sand pit on the other hand… You’d be amazed at how long it takes a platoon to make the walls sweat. Lol ah memories

          • I’ve talked with troops who went through Army Basic during the stress card debacle, they all thought it was stupidly funny.

        • I went through Basic right at the transition. And when I say “right at” I mean Alpha Company (we were the control group) went through 14 weeks of “high stress” (that’s what they called it, I’m sure it wasn’t as bad as 60’s or 40’s basic) and Bravo through Delta companies got to order pizza, use the phones whenever, etc. after week 2. The guys from those later cycles were a soup sandwich (and if you seem chewed up from my 20 year old private point of view – before I had a clue what I was doing – you were in baaaaaddddd shape.)

          • There is a huge difference between hard training and abuse. When I went through Infantry Officer Basic we were abused and people died. Whenever we went to the field or far away training areas we kept 3 medevac helo’s busy pulling out heat casualties. Most of which was because we were only given 2 one quart canteens of water a day when it was cat 4 by 0900 and cat 5 by 10:00 hrs. You cant teach people anything when they are trying to just survive. Some other NCO’s and LTs I knew went through Ranger School in feb and they would be marched into a pond when it was below freezing and have to stand there for long periods of time with their rifle over their heads while receiving instruction from a guy on the bank.
            The flip side is not being tough enough and the result is a wimpy soldier not fit for combat.

    • Years ago, before I discovered the joys of the innerwebz, I read a little statement by some guy, LAPD I believe, who was involved in investigating officer involved shooting. His findings were that when an officer had a 6 shot revolver he fired 6 shots in a shooting incident. When officers moved on to 16 shot autos, guess what, they fired 16 shots in a shooting incident.

      The kind of training and discipline it takes to overcome natural human instincts is expensive in cost and time. We talk of militarised police on this site. But in order to get that level of training and discipline you really have to militarise the cops.

      • Why do you have to militarize the police to get that level of training? A simple solution is to make the officers spend one shift a month at a range. There’s no increase in salary and a minimal cost for ammunition, but the benefits on a mere eight hours mandated training per month would be immeasurable.

        • 1 shift a month at a range means x number of cops aren’t on the street doing their real job. That costs us in many ways. Plus 1 shift per month isn’t enough time and training to instil military level of discipline.

          The military has it’s soldiers 24/7.

          • And they shoot once or twice a year. What your saying it ok for cops to pump rounds into innocent civilians cause that means the cops are on the job.

        • Actually there is an increase in pay, another officer will get OT to cover the patrol area(s). Over the years tried a lot; free ammo before the price insanity, range memberships for the family, free guns&cookouts. The best that worked was hunting trips but still less than 50% participated. Even the virtual trainers don’t work. Couple of years ago I bought a laserlyte setup for pistol, rifle & shotgun mandated 25 “rounds” fired at the start of each shift. When I left it came with me because the politicians would not cut a $289 check fot reimbursement.

          Department training officers & armorers want more for all carrying, politicians & unions don’t.

        • DBM. Who’re you talking too. I don’t think Dev or I said it was okay to shoot people just cause the cops were on duty. Point a gun or what reasonably looks like a gun at the cops and yes they will shoot you and I will support their shooting.

          • I Repeat I never said it was a bad shooting. However it seem like every other day cops are shooting innocent people and the fist bumps doesn’t say a good thing at all about these cops. It would be right up there with getting a cold beer to celebrate the kill or maybe hanging him by the feet like a deer to pose for pictures. I don’t think I have every read about any cops fist bumping in calibration of killing someone.

          • So I would have been justified in shooting the students at FLETC? They were constantly running around with those damn Airsoft pistols. We had a whole gun drawer full of toy guns we confiscated from the students. Consider the stress these students are under, it would be really easy for one of them to go off the deep end and start shooting the place up. Actually the Border Patrol loses several students with every class because they can’t take the stress and will go to the Department of Homeland Building and resign. So a stressed out student with a loaded gun is not that far fetched. I would be justified in shooting them right? So instead of getting out of my patrol vehicle, going over to the student and taking the damn toy gun away from them I should draw down on them, and if they so much as act like they are a threat I should shoot them. Right? I probably should shoot the little bastards, because sooner or later it isn’t going to be an Airsoft, and the student isn’t going to be playing. And I am going to get shot dead. But then, that is what I get paid for. Not to kill the students but to keep them safe.

        • If they figure out the shift coverage properly there is no need for another officer to get OT pay. This requires a shift in the entire philosophy in scheduling that police have. Lots of other jobs are able to figure out how to maintain the right amount of coverage while sending employees to training. You’re saying that the people in charge of safety can’t figure that part out?

          • Most PD’s are running with minimal officers per shift now either from NG/reserve activation or budget cuts. Just to operate a range & comply with all the federal enviromental regs
            costs a small fortune so putting less than 10-15 officers a shift on range for 8 hours will cut coverage. Factor in 5-8 hours of ammo per person. Remember a few court decisions have also mandated training with what you carry & no reloads, factor how hard it is to find amm. Even buying in bulk on state bid prices is expensive & jhp ammo is hard to find in defense ammo even then.
            I know a lot of depts. are training with WWB(white box) & carrying federal or speer, banking on yhe same performance level also the reason a lot of agencies went back to 9mm.
            9mm 147gr rn 50rounds $24.20
            .40 180gr. =31.20
            .45acp 230gr = $38.90
            Price I was quoted Thursday by an approved supplier taking 250 boxes at a time for federal ammo. Gold dots were about 30% higher keep in mind that ammo is double the cost of 5 years ago but the ammo budget is the same for a 9 officer dept. that needs new pistols badly, $125 for maintenance of 20y/o glocks & officers buy uniforms, body armor & gear on there own. Then the politicians ask why they can’t get better cops, either rookies or retirees
            or ones no one else would hire. Sadly a lot of departments in all 50 states are in this boat because of political pressure, correctness, color & sex quotas and the economy in the tank so people cant pay current taxes or handle increases.

            • Besides, most officers go to the range and shoot once or twice a month, if not more. I constantly shoot, simply because it is a diminishing skill and there is a fine line between qualifying and failing. Not me, I have always qualified expert.

        • I agree with jwm, that pointing a weapon at police is almost always going to wind up in death for the person doing so, but I think police should be trained more. Not only because it’s kind of silly for them to fire so many shots as they did in this case, but also and mainly to make their job easier and safer.

        • 1 shift a month at a range means x number of cops aren’t on the street doing their real job.

          Oh no! Who will sit along the road and rob people who are just trying to get home from work?!

      • JWM, usually I agree with your posts, but I have to disagree here. Prior to the latest nonsense (ie. the Global War on Terror) combat arms units shot personal weapons twice a year; Once for qualification and once for familiarization. Units shoot more now (thankfully), but it’s not just the range time, it’s the discipline. Screw up with a weapon in the military, and your behind is grass. Responsible weapons handling is hammered over, and over, and over.

        2 range sessions a year doesn’t seem excessive to me.

  19. I have no problem with it. I’d fist-bump them all. If they told someone (notice: repeatedly) to put down their weapon and they refused, too bad for the bad guy. I don’t care if he was toting a BB gun: often the cops can’t tell. As a CWL, if someone raised a gun at me, and I couldn’t tell it was a BB gun (much less, note that some bad guys are now disguising real guns as BB guns by painting the end of it orange), they’re getting shot, and I’m entirely within my rights.

    The police officers will be investigated, as almost always happens.

    It’s time our country get over itself and stop being weak. If they are stupid enough to aim a gun at a police officer, too bad, screw them. If someone raised a gun at my wife and I couldn’t tell in time if it was a BB gun or not, they’d get a lead salad. So only citizens can defend themselves? Doesn’t matter if there was 1 cop, 2 cops, or a thousand cops: no one wants to be the one who gets shot, and i don’t blame them.

  20. It’s all about getting that Red Badge of courage. Courage to show your fellow officers you have their flank and protect the blue line tribe at will. No communication from fellow officers, via pass down log or watch commander, about earlier fake gun confiscation. Security tried to inform officers the gun was a fake, but you know Officers do have to control the situation before anything else….and don’t speak to those pesky…getting in the way civilians. No on scene commander assigning one or two shooters with the rest taking cover and waiting. F the wait cause we might find out the guy is a nut job and then getting all those social type professionals involved. Fist pumping shows officers were excited about culling a mentally ill citizen from the collective under the guise of public safety. Total overall cost $21.35 cents of lead; reassignment and overtime pay will prove more cost effect then actually helping serving & protecting a mentally ill person.

      • Well 2Hotel9, this is Charlie Mike (Continue Mission for our non military friends). As usual is easy to slap a label and call it done. Nice jab and here’s the parry, I’m about as hard right as you can get, however I don’t let tribal nonsense get in the way of observation. 13 years former military experience and a mustang, and willing to grab a bullet for the parchment, (please don’t thank me for my service, government paid me twice a month).

        We’re not talking about seconds but MINUTES. In armed & unarmed confrontation, minutes are a lifetime to assess a situation. What this shoot demonstrates is a lack of leadership, someone who is willing to risk oneself and suckle the get home safe mantra. Laying lead is easy, taking charge and controlling the situation including controlling police is work and most likely well beyond the average police officer trained and lives in the culture of us vs. them, even is them is a deranged suicide by citizen.

        Under guise of serve & protect SERVE & PROTECT, police who mantra is to make it home safe, up-gun every situation. The mantra of “we had to kill’em to protect the public” is getting old and frankly, it’s fear that drive police to shoot nut jobs. Homeless man bothering no one gun down back, turned walking up a rocky hill, Crazy woman in San Jose with a painted drill, whose life could have been spared (rightly commented by Robert Fargo) for want of binoculars, eighty year old deaf man served no knock warrant for a meth lab (verified by a 3rd party contractor) when reality showed four pot plant grown by his grandson….all killed, and justified by rubber stamp local governments, in the name of public safety. At some point this must end and change will only come from police chief, who decide there is a better way. It will be hard and require work but it can be done.

        As long as people on this board state it was a good shoot for ending the lives of mentally unstable people, there will be no change in SOP and getting the unjustified good shoot check in the block, will continue.

        • That about says it. Oh by the way. Thanks for the service. He, he. USAF 1974 – 1997. All you have to do is watch the reality television show “Cops” to know just how little cops care about following any kind of discipline or how to protect the parchment. They have very little regard for the constitution and it appears that for the greater part of the time they use it to wipe their ass.

        • He chose death by cop, took 2 bites from the apple to get it done. And you are right! This took a long time to play out, at any point of which he could have dropped his weapon after receiving orders in multiple languages to do so. He chose not to. He chose death. He chose poorly.

          As for your little diatribe there? Well aren’t you special! Where were you during the late ’70s through the ’80s when Democrats in Congress and state legislatures were pushing through regulations and laws that put the mentally ill out of mental heath facilities and into the streets? A police chief is going to change all of this? You are full of it. The problem of the mentally ill remaining untreated and often dangerous to innocent people around them goes f*ck all deeper than that sh*t, pal.

        • June 1980…yellow footprints…two days out of high school (that and a Lincoln gets you a quad shot latte). Carter gave a pay raise and Ronnie bumped it 3 months later, no doubt funded by the closure of mental wards and unloading government cheese. Welfare abused was rampant, still is…and not relevant to this conversation or thought.

          What is relevant…men in blue, loosely assemble facts, become myopic, run a check list, pull triggers and then discover the oops moment. As for suicide by cop, the failed attempt was an indicator, first attempt, remove the fake gun problem solved….or the set up for second attempt and perhaps an opportunity to get some reality training, which by all accounts succeeded. If I was a cop, I certainly would not facilitate a suicide by shooting them. How much extra time would it take to sit citizen in a jail cell and cool his jets. In this case, police become facilitators and failed to protect a guy gone mental. The moral justification is lacking when the only excuse “it looked like a gun”. Here in CA a Spanish speaking kid, turned around with an Airsoft AK, just to see who was yelling at him…subject turn…green light and the trigger pulling began. Meanwhile a secret service agent in the 80’s sees a kid in a crowd point a water gun at the President’s limo and within a millisecond of engaging, holds his fire. Level of training perhaps, but I submit it was the caliber of person that prevented the killing. Now we have police that let others think for them. Check the blocks on the list and fire away. It happens more frequently as police are up-guned.

          Air General Chuck Horner on the first gulf war said it best (paraphrased) when speaking about fratricide. The lethality of our armaments insures destruction and when communication fails and those weapons are turned on our own troops the results is devastating. Pretty much the same result when 6 officers, AR up-gunned get tunnel vision and fist bump a hands behind the back cuffed bleed out. Police lethality has increase significantly in the last 10 years and when employed lethality is absolute.

          By no means am I quarter backing here, but the video shows a lack of situational awareness, 12 headlights plus spots on the subject, five minutes of waving a gun, if a real gun, how would the mental man be able to shoot straight? What is the round rate per kill in war…thousands. And words directing compliance o a mental nut job more than likely is not registering…again not an excuse to take a life. Non police citizens are held to a higher standard and police should be as well.

          The opportunity is to change procedure, that presence of waving a gun is not shooting a gun and having up-gun armaments is not a reason to employ them in a six on, one holding a hand gun.

          • He was repeatedly told to drop the weapon, he pointed the weapon at officers who were pointing weapons at him. End of story? He chose death by cop.

            And pointing out the systematic purging of mentally ill people, in order to protect their civil rights, from hospitals/facilities/jails where they were receiving treatment and assured of not being a danger to innocent citizens is precisely part of the conversation YOU initiated. The fact that purge was a primary part of the DNC platform, at state and Federal level, for over a decade, is also germane to the conversation YOU want to have about the mentally ill. That Reagan signed their crowning piece of legislation in this campaign has been used as a smoke screen by the very f*cking a$$holes who pushed it. And he signed it because he said he agreed that protecting the civil rights of the mentally ill was very important, lets us just step over the fact that mentally ill people were running around violating other people’s civil rights.

        • A lot of you guys are apparently too young to remember some facts, so you yell at each other whether it was Dems or Reps who opened the gates of mental institutions. Take it from someone old enough to remember reading it in the daily paper, who also grew up in a town with a large state mental institution so it was important economically. It was the Supreme Court that stopped the centuries old practice of locking up helpless and inoffensive crazies without a trial or even a charge, because it is plainly UNCONSTITUTIONAL!! Remember that? Has nothing to do with democrats or republicans, everything to do with the document everyone here claims to support. There should be some method to improve their outlook, but illegal imprisonment isn’t it.