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TTAG’s been warning readers about the militarization of America’s police departments since the site began. And now it looks like it’s crunch time. IF some kind of legislation passes Congress or, more likely, some Northeastern State House, the cops will be sent to grab your guns. Don’t expect Barney Fife to come knocking on your door. IF this goes down it’s gonna be a SWAT Team and they’re not knocking. [NB: More than eighty-percent of cities in the U.S. with a population greater than 100k have a SWAT team.] The big question becomes: will they? Will SWAT teams set aside any personal or professional concerns about the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution and flash bang your butt? The photo was taken yesterday in Wichita, Kansas.

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    • I got, shall we say, a close relative who’s a SWAT commander in a large city. Ain’t gonna happen. They will shoot the first Fed that shows up to organize the confiscation. They got more guns and ammo stashed than any 10 of us put together.

      • They will shoot the first Fed that shows up to organize the confiscation.

        You can keep thinking that right up until your close relative shoots you in the back. I’m not under any illusions as to which side my relatives who are police are on.

    • “They will do it without even blinking”

      Maybe the first time……….but when they encounter heavy resistance and start dying, they will start blinking then.

  1. I can assure you in most of rural America they won’t come knockin’… these are our neighbors, our children’s den leaders, our community volunteer fellows… unlike the city where nobody knows anyone, everyone knows everyone here…

    • RF’s right, they may not knock.

      No-knock raids are so evil. It’s not uncommon for them to get the wrong house, they even have a phrase for that, “wrong door raid”.

      Your sitting in your living room watching TV and someone busts into your house so you grab your gun and they run in and shoot you. The cops shoot you. They didn’t warn you they were the police. They do this so “evidence isn’t destroyed”.

      This puts me at a distinct disadvantage if someone busts into my place, I have to pause to make sure it’s not the police with full body armor.

      If it turns out to be a street thug and not one with a badge, he now has an opportunity to shoot me first. All because my neighbor smokes pot.

  2. Only 80% of 100K+ cities have SWAT assets? Maybe if you exclude shared services like county SWAT and exchange agreements with adjoining jurisdictions.

    Effectively it’s ~100% if the test is “the local LE command staff can call up a SWAT team as needed for high-risk arrests and searches.”

    • They already enforce tyrannical laws, why wouldn’t they enforce this one as well. They are of such low moral character that they work for the government in the first place, they will keep the paychecks coming in.

      • Chris, you show your low inteligence when you assume everyone working for the government has low moral character. I’m in the Army, and and “technically” a government employee, who has served two deployments, one to Iraq and one to Afghanistan (recently returned). If it wasn’t for me and others like me with our “low moral character” you wouldn’t enjoy the freedoms you enjoyo today. Think next time before you make a stupid, generalized comment.

        • Thank you for defending my freedoms from the imminent Iraqi attack on our homeland. Where would I have been without you?

        • Well said.

          “Chris Mallory” — half of my family are teachers, and their paychecks come from the government. So what you’re saying is that teachers are of low moral character because they provide free K-12 education to all citizens of the US?

          Perhaps you were homeschooled after being ejected from the public school system, which would explain both your social deficiencies and your ability to hold the moral high ground on this question?

        • @Devin –

          they provide free K-12 education to all citizens of the US

          Free? Really? Where does the money come from to pay them?

        • you wouldn’t enjoy the freedoms

          You’re not fighting for freedom; you’re an Economic Hitman for Wall Street. You’re helping run a racket.

          Here’s a Marine who wasn’t blind to it:

          War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

          I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we’ll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

          I wouldn’t go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

          There isn’t a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its “finger men” to point out enemies, its “muscle men” to destroy enemies, its “brain men” to plan war preparations, and a “Big Boss” Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

          It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

          I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

          I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

          During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

          ~Major General Smedley Butler, USMC, speech in 1933

        • If it wasn’t for me and others like me with our “low moral character” you wouldn’t enjoy the freedoms you enjoyo today.

          Please, Oh Righteous One, tell me how murdering poor brown people that posed no threat to the US is “protecting my freedom”.

          Ever since the end of WWII all our military has done is wage a never ending series of wars of aggression to terrorize countries into bowing to our will. The only instance that has been justified since then was going after Osama bin Laden and his co-conspirators. It’s sickening that you cowards go over there, murder innocent people merely because of their religion / socio-economic system and then proclaim yourselves holy warriors protecting freedom, when all you do is take away freedom.

        • To all you guys bashing the armed forces: The military is not in the middle east just to “kill poor innocent brown people.” Right now their mission seems to be hunting and killing terrorists. Terrorists are a very real threat to our freedoms right here at home. Why is it again that we have the Patriot Act and warrantless wiretaps and “Nudi Scanners” in airports and a President that is allowed to indefinitely detain American citizens and even kill them without any process at all (much less our Constitutionally guaranteed “due process”)?

        • Duke, the US military is the largest terrorist organization out there. They have spent almost 70 years invading country after country merely because they have different beliefs and murdering people that pose no threat to the US to intimidate them into adopting policies that US politicians want them to adopt. The ‘terrorists’ that you’re so afraid of are merely defending themselves against decades of our aggression. We don’t have the Patriot Act and the TSA and such to “protect us from terrorists” (because they do no such thing), they’re there to get submissive people like you used to having your rights violated and to get you to promote shredding the Constitution “in the name of freedom”.

          Sadly, they’ve done a great job getting you to promote violating the Constitution in the name of “freedom”.

        • @Duke, RE: “military bashing”

          The Standing Army is pissing the 2A. The 2A was meant to prevent the Standing Army. An army that isn’t disbanded after 2 years is unconstitutional. If you don’t like the Constitution, you’re welcome to leave the country, because I’m tired of you spewing unconstitutional bullshit as fast as Piers Morgan.

          And no, the military isn’t defending us. The War on Terror is a HOAX.

          The “war on terror” is a hoax. It serves as a cover for the drive for U.S. and Israeli hegemony in the Middle East.

          ~Paul Craig Roberts (former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury under the Reagan Administration and former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal)
          Hegemony’s Cost

        • Totenglocke et al: by all means, petition Congress to reduce all of our Armed Forces to that simply necessary to defend our borders. But don’t go complaining (does “bitching” survive the moderators?) the day you are forced to learn Chinese, a 747 crashes through your roof, or your wife is made to wear a burka.

        • Just like DiFi herself, the anti-2A Right Wing Militarists pump up fear as an excuse to ignore the Constitution.

          (Yeah, like the Chinese are going to invade across the Pacific, when Hitler abandoned going across a body of water that you can see land across.)

        • Thank you for your service and welcome home Devin not all of us wear the tinfoil hats some of us are vets and know firsthand the sacrifices you make and are greatful the rest should have some respect

    • Also: it occurs to me that this could very well be the scene outside my house in a worst-case scenario. Not because I’ll be inside returning fire and shouting “molon labe!” but because some of my friendly city LEOs and command staff know that I’m active in the shooting sports.

      I don’t think it will come to SWAT raids to collect firearms, but if we do go down that road, I hope I’ll at least get a courtesy call inviting me to discuss the question of what firearms might be in my possession rather than a no-knock raid at 0400. If not, well, then it’s time to call the lawyers and people with connections.

    • I can think of another group of people who were “just following orders”. I like cops, but any who try to use that defense deserve what they will have coming to them.

  3. On the plus side how many officers do they have?

    Figure 8-10 raids a day. Each day is bound to end with at least one going down or being put on the bench. So that’s one less for the next day.

    They have lives and families too.

    The magic number is how many will have to die before the others ask themselves “is this crap worth my life?”

    We’re not looking at the once in a while drug raid here. We’re looking at hundreds of millions of people and tens of millions of homes.

    If one of these Northeast states gets the ball rolling that’s just going to tell the other states that if there’s a trigger anywhere in the house your finger better be on it.

  4. First of all, it’s a long way from banning high cap mags and certain makes of rifles to an outright confiscation. i think this post crosses the line.

    • nope. talking about what WILL happen if we lose gives vital perspective as to what’s at stake.

      i don’t think the cops are any more or less moral than the rest of the population (especially considering the fine citizens they usually interact with).

      but, to them, it’s a job. and more importantly, a paycheck with a pension at the end of the line.

      they WILL do this if we lose. so let’s not kid ourselves how important it is to win the legislative and legal fights. because then they will be coming for our guns, and even if you live through the raid, you’re going to prison.

    • You’re right. But sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that there is nothing wrong solves nothing. Prepare and observe opsec.

    • If by “a long way” you mean “a couple of years if we’re lucky”. If they ban standard capacity magazines and some rifles this year, are you really foolish enough to think that they won’t push to ban more next year and the year after that and the year after that? We’ve seen them work in California, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, the UK, Australia, etc. They ALWAYS start by banning a few “reasonable” things and then ban everything eventually with forced confiscations. We already have multiple Democrat governors talking about confiscations, do you really think that Feinstein and Obama don’t have wet dreams about having your precious police kick in your door, drag you out in the street, take away your guns, and then throw you in jail for life or execute you in the street?

      • ED: Your comment was deleted. Check your inbox (if the email addy is real). I remove comments about TTAG’s editorial stance and style because they sidetrack the thread. Every. Single. Time.

        • Deathknell, my reply keeps getting edited. Just have to say I don’t believe confiscation is a near term worry.

        • And that is exactly why we’ve already lost. Pretending the threat doesn’t exist doesn’t change the fact that it IS their goal, and they’ve stated it’s their goal as well. Since the Republican party is dead set on losing elections by trying to legislate Christianity, we’re likely stuck with Democrats controlling the government for a long time.

    • Nah, I think he’s wrong about people. I think most people (myself included) would probably turn in their weapons if they were told that failing to do so would make them guilty of a felony. I think that this guy who wrote this is living in a fantasy world of his own wherein people who live next to each other form some kind of hokey “community” similar to colonial America, and that they would automatically band together to throw off tyrany. I live in suburban America, where most other Americans live, and I’ve got neighbors I’ve lived next door to for over 10 whose names I still don’t know. I’ll bet most of the people reading this board are a lot like me, they don’t know their neighbors very well, don’t feel as though they are really members of a community in any way other than as people who own a tract home within the limits of some city or town (or census designated place), and they probably wouldn’t be willing to form or join some kind of ad hoc constitutional militia with a bunch of strangers with whom all they share is a zip code. Once the word goes out that if you fail to comply with the law you’ll go to a jail where you’ll no longer be able to drink beer and watch sports on a 55″ TV in your McMansion, that’s it; game over. Eighty-five, maybe ninety percent of people will turn them in, then everyone will start telling on their friends who still have them when they start to offer some kind of a reward for doing so, and the rest of the guns will slowly be collected one or two at a time during searches incident to raids and arrests over the course of time. Book it, you heard it here first. BUT, I don’t think it’ll even come to that, because I don’t see any sweeping changes coming, maybe a magazine law or something, combined with more make pretend dollars being created out of thin air and thrown at some new mental health campaign. People who get off on reading this kind of “us versus a tyrannical government” stuff should just go to netflix and re-watch “Jerico”. Do it now, BEFORE A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT SHUTS DOWN THE INTERNET!!!

      • I think most people (myself included) would probably turn in their weapons if they were told that failing to do so would make them guilty of a felony.

        Why? Other than a few years in a luxury resort with free food, free cable, free internet, free college courses, free gym membership, free maid service, no bills, etc what do you have to lose? The thing that keeps gun owners or potential gun owners so in line now is that if you get picked up on a bogus felony, you lose your guns for life. If you’re going to lose your guns anyways, why not be a felon?

        • “Why? Other than a few years in a luxury resort with free food, free cable, free internet, free college courses, free gym membership, free maid service, no bills, etc what do you have to lose? The thing that keeps gun owners or potential gun owners so in line now is that if you get picked up on a bogus felony, you lose your guns for life. If you’re going to lose your guns anyways, why not be a felon?”

          Uh, are you being tongue in cheek here, or are you serious? Speaking from a LOT of up close and personal experience, it’s not like that. If you wind up in a legitimate BOP facility it might be okay, but the really nice ones are for non-violent crimes, not Super Death Ray Assault Gunmonger charges. Where you’d be headed, the food is free, and some of it’s not that bad, but a day’s worth of the good stuff sells for more than a week’s pay on the commissary. There is cable, but you have to share it with a bunch of other guys. Guess who gets to decide what you’re watching? That’s right, not you. Hope you like Telemundo. Sabado Gigante is pretty good, lots of good looking girls, who cares if you can understand the jokes. I’ve never heard of inmates being given access to the internet unless they’ve managed to get a hold of a contraband smart phone. You might get access to a very limited LAN to take some classes though. For a list of federal inmates who took advantage of all that great schooling to turn their lives around and become wildly successful professionals on the outside, go to:

          You’re correct about the free maids too, there are men in prison who perform house cleaning duties for no pay, but those are usually the less dominant men, you know, like gentlemen from America’s suburbs doing time over some stupid point they were trying to make. Guess who that’d be? It’d be the same guy who doesn’t get to decide what everyone’s going to watch on TV.

          Lastly, there ARE bills in prison. There’s a fee to use the phone, the microwave, to watch the TV program of your choice, and if you’re a member of less powerful racial group, you might even have to pay “rent” to sleep in that no frills bunk the government issued you.

          Given all this, most people reading this board who are honest with themselves will admit that they’d rather just get it over with and disarm voluntarily and see how things play out in the courts in the future than face the prospect of being disarmed eventually by the government anyways and then having to suffer in prison for a while. In prison most people on this board would be second class citizens, because most people on this board don’t have a violent predatory mentality, which is what it takes to be able to “enjoy” life in prison.

      • You live in SUBURBAN America. No offense to anyone who does, but your probably right. Most, if not all will submit peacefully. Now about the rest of us that live in RURAL America. I can promise that the same is not true.

        • Maybe they’ll give you a “carve out” exception like they did for the Quakers on Obama Care. Maybe they’ll say that anyone with 1 acre or more of property or a truck mounted rifle rack installed prior to 2013 can still keep 1 weapon for cultural heritage reasons.

  5. 10 visible fully combat-geared cops, plus who knows how many more not pictured, all to arrest some tatted up douchebag in a wifebeater. I don’t know how anyone can look at that photo and think, “Yeah, that was necessary.”

    • Am I the only one who has a problem with the fact that they’re dressed in mil-spec camo instead of police uniforms of some sort?

      I mean, at that point they might as well skip the custom armored SWAT transport and just borrow a couple of Bradleys from the nearest National Guard depot. Nothing like a few 25mm HE rounds to take down a front door!

      • Don’t you see the oak trees in that picture? They have to blend in so nobody sees them while they’re PARKED IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE FOR FOUR HOURS.

    • Holy S Matt, are you kidding? What pray tell do you know about arresting a high risk suspect who just tried to murder someone over a fender bender? Please enlighten me on what the proper procedure should be. Cops get paid to risk their lives, of course, but who said they have to do it unnecessarily?

      • No, I’m not kidding.

        I understand there was gunplay involved earlier in the day. Do you really think it takes 20-some fully battle-armored cops to arrest him? Do you really think it takes a FUCKING ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER? APC’s are used to transport combat troops into battle. They’re parked in front of the house. They’re not transporting anyone, anywhere. That’s a $200,000 (?) shield they’re standing behind. That is its sole purpose.

        This is a picture perfect example of “we have it, so why not use it.” The story is real short on details. Did they expect serious armed resistance? Did they get it? The residents obviously knew they were outside, since they were there for about four hours before going in.

        If you showed me that picture, without context and without a car that said POLICE down the side, my immediate question would be, “What is the U.S. army doing in suburban U.S.A.?” Military-style camo, body armor, guns galore, and an armored transport vehicle… They’re dressed up to play soldier, but without the 6 months at a time away from home and the IED’s. It’s asinine.

      • Cops are far down on the list of people who ‘risk their life’ on the job.

        Your taxi driver, truck driver, landscaper, iron worker, forklift operator, etc are all several times more likely to not come home to their wife and kids than the average copper. BLS stats have said that for quite a while, in fact, only last year did police work enter the “top 10 dangerous jobs” and only just.

        Those other jobs are all considered rather safe. The propaganda that police work is dangerous is just that – propaganda.

        • 16v,
          That comment of yours is so far off the mark, tis best to use for toilet paper anything you wrote it down on.

        • CG-23 Sailor,

          Please cite the BLS stat that contradicts my post. Because there aren’t any.

          Just like the antis who deal in illusion and emotion, you have no basis in fact to argue from.

  6. Generally well-paid, cushy retirement, and short of egregious misbehavior, you can’t even get in trouble on the job. And if you’re are trouble, they just send you to a different department.

    You’ve a cop who’s said you aren’t going to go confiscate guns, well, the LT says it’s an order. The rest of your friends in your platoon have no hesitation. Despite the posturing of some, does anyone really believe for a minute these guys are gonna risk their careers to be defenders of the Constitution?

    • Do you really believe for a minute these guys are going to risk their LIFE to be defenders of an unconstitutional order?

      These won’t be raids that people don’t know are coming. People will know they’re coming, people WILL prepare.

      • I truly hope that none of our theorizing is put to that test, but if it should, the first few “bloody” raids with LE casualties will have the Governor of whatever State declaring an emergency and activating the NG.

        Once the Guard is activated, martial law will be declared. Any illusions of legal protections go right out the window after you are declared a “terrorist”. Remember that “Patriot” neo-fascism Bush passed? Not to mention Obo’s NDAAs. Martial law is just the icing on the cake. There will be an “voluntary” surrender period, after which you will be shot on sight as a insurgent.

        At that point, things will get genuinely messy.

        • National Guard: the nasty girls.

          I dare one of those fat, undisciplined weekend warrior wannabes to kick my door in…

        • I want to believe the ones who are deployed are the 2/3rds who didn’t get deployed to our follies of misadventure in the sandbox. They’re rather normalized folks who might hesitate to pull the trigger on a fellow citizen.

          My experience tells me that any commander worth his salt (and not all are) will deploy the 1/3 who already have experience going house-to-house in an urban environment, and killing everyone who doesn’t buy into the ‘freedom’ we are bringing. Or anyone who just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or who thinks they have rights.

          Thanks to a decade of ME BS, the ‘Nancy Girls’ could actually be a bit dangerous.

        • hopefully they will be the wash-outs that were delegated with convoy security and ECP duty during their deployments.

          I shouldnt be too harsh on the National Guard. I know many high speed, former active duty guardsmen in the various LRS, RSTA, and SF contingents that have already made a decision on who’s side they’re not on. theyre even less rational than i am on the subject of possibly forfeiting their 2nd amendment rights to own sport utility rifles.

          One shouldnt be quick to downplay them. They have the same equipment, armaments, etc and some units exceed the capabilities and proficiency of some active duty units. another POV is that they also took a oath to the governor of their state, which can be really good or bad.

      • The police grab guns in violation of 2A everyday, because a politician said someone isnt allowed to own one because they are a felon, are accused of domestic battery, have a restraining order, etc.

      • Law enforcement officers arrest citizens and confiscate their firearms all over the place in Illinois where no one can carry anything in public — openly or concealed. So they are already doing it now.

        • According to the law in Illinois, it’s also a felony, and I can’t recall the last time it was charged other than a misdemeanor.

  7. Breaking into people’s homes with no knock warrants, isn’t the best idea. People would get hurt and people will probably die. I doubt they would have SWAT go around doing this. I also doubt that all judges would grant the warrants.

  8. Now for a completely unconnected technical question. Would 7.62x54r fired at neighberhood range penetrate that green vehicle with the upended garbage can lid on the roof?

  9. I don’t see how it would be possible logistically. Let’s say a city has 4 million citizens and of those 4 million 50% are gun owners. First how are they going to find out who are the gun owners? After they are identified how many houses per day can a SWAT team hit up? 3-4? How many years would it take to raid all 2 million-house holds?

    I think they would have to go about it in a completely different way. Perhaps they would just rely on the cowardice of American citizens these days. I’m sure the majority of people would voluntarily turn over their weapons. Thanks to the indoctrination of liberalism in public schools the true American patriot is all but extinct. Can you imagine George Washington trying to lead so called men of today that are like Ryan Seacrest and Jimmy Fallon into war?

    • The anti-gun folks will certainly voluntarily turn in their neighbors, especially after the incessant brainwashing in the current media stew.

    • Well there is only 1 city that big, and I doubt there are that many gun legal gun owners in NYC. In Chicago there are 2.7m people and 116k FOID card holders. You have to take in to account many people would voluntarily turn in them in, and other people could be arrested to/from work and be made to turn them over while in handcuffs.

  10. My personal opinion is many will, and many won’t.
    I think it depends on the department. Some Colorado Sheriffs rumored to have said they will not. Something about defending the constitution until their dying breath..

    New York City on the other hand I could see getting bad. But if people were to.. uhm resist.. Like as in the ballistic resistance, I have a feeling that if a few officers who we love, and respect parish, the Police unions would probably pressure the Police chief to not enforce the law. You can’t have your paying members dying on you now can you?

    Yeah I know that sounds bad doesn’t it? But the reality is that if there are dead officers, and dead people, people who are your average law abiding citizen, then it makes a world of difference.

  11. Send SWAT and other tactical teams door to door to confiscate? Maybe and maybe not. I don’t think there will be a confiscation at least not in the short term. The USG could first support individual liberal states that declare ARs illegal with their confiscation actions slowly pruning the tree of liberty one state at a time. Other options are to turn off gun owners gas and electricity, freeze their financial assets, and order the phone company to stop service until the gun owners comply. Big corporations would probably support a government call to fire or bar gun owning employees from work if the government asks them too.

    • Some small-town governments have learned all too well how much it fscks up someone’s life when you put a lien on their property. No SWAT team required, just an administrative judge to approve a lien on the house.

      Conveniently enough, the state also controls your single most important identification document, your driver’s license. Want to really put the screws to someone and send them on a spiral into debt and civil offenses? Suspend or revoke their driver’s license.

      • Good points. Other options are for the USG to hold off medicaid and ss benefits. I could see the USG bringing in Blackwater or use the military to aggressively go after those they deem the extreme 5-10% most dangerous rebels.

    • And that’s the real party trick. No politically messy raids, no serious downside potential for anyone but the gun owner.

      You can already lose your license for a 20 year old parking ticket in another state. You can be prevented from doing many menial jobs because of some misdemeanor charge, even if never convicted.

      In a world where “public urination” gets you labeled as a sex offender, it’s rather easy to make things impossibly hard for anyone that ever owned a firearm, or even posted on this site.

  12. They will just do what CA does, and wait for someone to have something “illegal” and in a few years when everyone has accepted it, the range officers and gun shop employees will start informing to protect their business. They will pick people up for other crimes and tack on “assault weapons” violations if they feel inclined to make an example. They will wait for neighbors/ex wives/angry girlfriends/stupid friends to drop a dime on the owner, and wait for him to come home after work.

    Or they require registration for a few years, then do this when they feel the list is comprehensive enough.

    Why is make, model, and s/n on a 4473 anyway? Doesn’t affect your eligibility…

  13. “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America”

    Emphasis added.

    If you’re reading that today in America then:

    Posterity = YOU

    I can hear the voice of my (warning: horrifically) racist (and also long deceased) grandfather ringing in my ears, and it should be shared:

    “Grandson, if you EVER give up your guns, you are dead to me, boy!” (Yeah… He did indeed speak in bold when he was was on this topic…) “If those greedy Jews had put down their money and picked up shotguns, rifles, and pistols, and all the ammo they could afford, and unleashed hell-fire every time the SS knocked on their door, history would have been a lot different!

    “Don’t you ever walk to your death because someone told you to like they did in Europe!! NEVER! Take at least one down with you! Remember this: Never let them tell you what to do, they don’t have the right! Never give up your guns! Never let them put you in a ghetto! NEVER get on the train!”

    A note: My grandfather was an Army Doctor, and saw firsthand the handiwork of gun control after the war.

    • Re: your grandfather

      God forbid someone should actually tell the truth, but in a manner that is even mildly offensive. Lots of people would totally miss the rest of the message because they got hung up on the word “greedy.”

    • If those greedy Jews had put down their money and picked up shotguns… history would have been a lot different!

      So true, but we all know history really turned out.

      • And the majority will do the same as they did then. Human nature, brain of the average is hardwired for it. Elitist? Nah, just that evolution survival of the fittest thing.

        Give them the illusion of hope – relocation, new job, whatever. Doesn’t matter that they’ve heard all about the end-of-the-line, those are just rumors. Tinhat nutters come up with those death camp stories.

        Our glorious German/Soviet/Viet/Chinese/Rwandan/ad nauseum government would never do that. It can’t happen here.

  14. Yeah SWAT members would do it or they would get reprimanded. But I do agree with jwm, this might be a *little* bit too soon

  15. That kind of force deployed against a known dirtbag . Go for it and stay safe . That’s the apple .
    The pear is the same force deployed to confiscate a law abiding citizen’s arms . In the area I live in such action would draw quite a crowd . They likely be asking their CO ,
    “Capn , whered all them Indians come from ?”

    • SWAT teams will only be used against citizens who are not law abiding. And since you seem so concerned with being law abiding, are you going to give up your evil black guns when they’re outlawed?

      • I own no ‘evil black guns ‘ . If you are so interested in my reaction to a SWAT team at my house , just come along with them . (You stick real close to your ‘buddies’, too , so your intentions are not mistaken .

  16. Would most SWAT in urban/suburban areas even
    blink when told to confiscate firearms using no
    knock raids? Doubtful. Consider this: during a
    MOUT operation anything under 25% casualties
    is considered normal if not good. With the
    increased threat many are starting to take home
    security seriously and even carry while in their
    house. Risk will obviously go up.

    Also consider that the further from urban centers
    a SWAT is used the higher the risk. Handguns
    would stop being the average firearms encountered
    and both shotguns and high powered hunting
    rifles would take over. Add to this open terrain,
    possibly increasing engagement zones to several
    hundred yards. There would also be a more
    pinpoint warning system as you get more rural.
    It’s not easy to hide a SWAT van and/or multiple
    squad cars. Phone calls could warn residents
    long before SWAT could physically travel to the
    next raid locale. That 25% casualty rate is going to
    become a best case scenario. All of this is
    supposing that individuals don’t start actively
    retaliating and go on the offensive.

    All in all, even a SWAT should realize going door
    to door would quickly become suicidal. It wouldn’t
    be long before you’d run out of LEOs (at least
    those willing to enforce a confiscation) and have
    to call in the military, which is a whole other

  17. Civilization (City-Statism) marches on.

    “Civilization originates in conquest abroad and repression at home.” ~Stanley Diamond, In Search of the Primitive: A Critique of Civilization, p. 1

    City-Statism (Civilization) has been an 8000 year long Trail of Tears, since the days of Ur, when the Blue·State city-slicker Cain killed his Red·State pastoralist brother Abel.

  18. If the federal govt will use military assets to serve a warrant based mostly on child abuse and some gun violations which results in the horrific death of many children without any legal repercussions….who can say?

  19. The entire argument of TTAG ( or more honestly, Fargo’s opinion on the mater) about militarizing police is lame in the very same way that the gun grabber’s is lame. How can you get upset when the local PD has a scary black rifle, but in the very next breath assert your rights to have one. The law abiding citizen is of no concern to LE and vs/vrs.

    The general overall question of what will happen if this unconstitutional gun ban/restriction comes into effect and the “raids” start taking place is a serious one however.

    I as an LE will not be part of that in any way and everyone of the hundreds of officers whom I have spoke to in my area will not be a part of it either. Does that mean that nobody will….I dont think it will be that hard to find some lump of shit political hack with a badge to take part in such an operation, but I think the numbers are low, very low and the lapdog chiefs of big city police departments are going to be thinking about this seriously. I think think its more likely that no raids would take place, except for the low hanging fruit, ie: guys who give them a reason, there are plenty of nutjobs out there who are nut jobs, period, separate and aside from their love of the 2nd amendment ( You know the type im talking about) and those that give a reason that the public and police can get behind and support for a raid will happen, the news media will have a feild day with it and portray them as the typical gun owner…etc

    More likely, if they wanted to get ya, they would just wait til you showed up at work or went shopping,.etc. No police, under these circumstances, are gonna willingly take part in a siege to recover some 30rng MagPuls. Just my thoughts.

    • Dead is dead. We are one step away from a civil war if this goes down. I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees. My family has had enough of tyrants.

    • “he law abiding citizen is of no concern to LE and vs/vrs. ”

      Until the tyrants change the law and turn us into criminals. Then we’re of concern to you.

      • I think someone else pointed it out above. Their biggest problem is that most police depts in suburbs and rural areas are members of the community, they are not robots locked away in a barracks closet at night. They wont go for pulling this crap on their neighbors, family, friends…etc. Now, big cities…I have much less faith in them doing the right thing.

    • How can you get upset when the local PD has a scary black rifle…

      Because militarized police are a de facto Standing Army, and that engine of oppression is part of the scheme of the Ruling Class to disarm the people.

      “Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed.” ~Noah Webster

      “A standing army is one of the greatest mischief that can possibly happen.” ~James Madison

      “…no such engine of oppression as a standing army.” ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, 1814

        • Methinks you have no idea what the word “hijack” means. Hijacking is a violent crime, something an “officer” shouldn’t accuse somebody of, if they’re the serious type.

          Anyway, do you have a problem with my exercising my First Amendment here, officer?

    • Local community leaders, including churches, should contact their local police officers and let them know that if they are asked to disarm the people, that the church/civic group will cover the police officer’s mortgage, utility bills, and groceries, so his family is not destitute if he resigns from a disgraceful assignment.

      Such support would do much to defang a confiscation scheme, at least in less densely populated communities.

      Good luck with that in necessarily corrupt crowded areas. But you should have moved away from them years ago anyway.

      When they get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, they will become corrupt as in Europe.” ~Jefferson to James Madison, December 20, 1787

    • The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

      Whether or not the old Supremes 6-3 validated random DWI checkpoints as legal because although the 4th prohibits them, they rationalized an exception because of “safety”.

      Except in a dozen or so States that have declared checkpoints in violation of their State Constitution, cops happily drink that koolaid and violate the 4th all the time.

      Once again, I hear the few LEs who claim they won’t obey. Yeah, whateva. They always do and always have up to now. Does anyone really think they’re gonna be any different?

    • How can you get upset when the local PD has a scary black rifle, but in the very next breath assert your rights to have one.

      Because if we use our evil rifle in an evil manner, we will go to jail. If the police use theirs in an evil manner, they’ll get a paid vacation and a medal for bravery.

      The law abiding citizen is of no concern to LE and vs/vrs.

      Hardly. Law abiding citizens have quite a lot to fear from the corrupt police. A cop can literally ruin your entire life with one simple lie just because they feel like being a jerk, and it happens quite often because their primary concern is their ego. It’s no secret that the majority of cops were high school bullies who wanted to get paid to push people around. The only difference is that now if you stand up to the bully, you get sent to jail (or murdered).

    • “How can you get upset when the local PD has a scary black rifle, but in the very next breath assert your rights to have one.”

      Because they want to have their scary black rifles, and more, while simultaneously denying my right to have one. I pretty much believe that there is nothing that should be available to civilian law enforcement that is not available to me as a citizen. Body armor, magazine capacity, you name it. If they can have it, there is no reason I should be legally disallowed from having it.

  20. Knock/Knock
    Who’s there?
    A gun grabbing swat team!
    “OK come on in”.
    Where are your guns?
    “They were all stolen last week. I filed a police report.” “If you want to look for them feel free”.
    “Here is the serial # on the guns I used to own. If they turn up let me know!”
    Anybody checked PVC sells?

  21. My biggest concern is ignorance about a particular action. I don’t know how much detail a commander tells the guys who are going to breach the door. As far as the guys are concerned, they are going in to apprehend someone for who knows what reason. Those guys could very well be absolutely committed to stop such an illegal raid if they fully understood why the raid was supposed to happen. But if they don’t know, they cannot intervene on the citizen’s behalf.

    Does anyone have any real world insight into this?

  22. I don’t think it will ever happen with swat teams going door to door. If it ever happens, it will happen in a way where they can maintain control of the situation. Lets say that next week Obummer gives the order that all semi auto weapons are now illegal to possess. Instead of door to door raids, we suddenly see an increase in “DUI” checkpoints all across the country. If a reason to search your vehicle ever presents itself, any reason at all, they certainly will. If they find anything at all you can bet a warrant to search your house will follow. All while you are cuffed in the back of a patrol car. Anything illegal they find such as an evil Ruger 10/22 or a deadly high cap mag will land you in prison and all of your guns will be history. That is how I see any sort of gun confiscation happening. Not by an outright ban and confiscation but by making it illegal to be in possession of. Slow, but controlled.

  23. They only need to do it once, after that, they will enter a home and find 1 firearm… The rest would be ‘missing’

    • Ask Martha Stewart about the penalty for lying to government agents. Best to keep your mouth shut, like Tim Farrell, as follows:

      Las Vegas DUI Checkpoint Refusal

  24. Prisons and jails are already over crowded. State budgets, particularly in the liberal states, are stretched thin as it is. CA, NYC, and Illlinois would not be able to afford housing everyone who resists. The Federal Budget is also a mess, thanks to excessive entitlement spending and other costly programs.

    Also, in CA, LEOs aren’t allowed to own ARs unless they are CA – legal (unless they have a DOJ exemption letter, or were registered soon after the sunset of AWB 1.0 in 2004). That means that LEOs would be enforcing bans on hardware that they already own if additional restrictions and confiscation bills were passed.

    It would have been smarter for the antis to allow more LEO AWB exemptions, so that they could have even more of an us vs them mentality. As it is most LEOs already don’t believe in these laws, and some even tacitly break them. If LEOs were to take everyone else’s hardware, they would already have to give up their own.

    Don’t give up you hardware. Many have lived without making any sacrifices or risks for freedom. That may soon change.

  25. Think of it more as a chess game. If they were to outright ban certain or all firearms, with or without grandfathering/registration, and most or lots refuse to comply … imagine waiting for that door kick that never comes. Ever. Now what? You can’t go to the gun range with that contraband anymore … and going down the roadways and highway you see TSA and VIPR teams conducting random car searches (lookin’ fer ’em terrorists, ya know), so you can’t even safely transport it/them. It would likely be opportunistic arrests and confiscation … one. at. a. time. No muss. No fuss. No Paul Revere riding to warn the DHS is coming… because they’re not. You come to them. Everywhere you go. Eventually.

  26. They don’t seem to be paying much attention on what may be behind them. I’m thinking if gun confiscation was happening like this, that there are lots of places in these here United States, that they would find many a scoped rifle aimed at there heads. Neighborhoods have lots and lots of windows you know.

    Of course I am certainly not advocating such a thing, just making an assumption.

    How long does it take to train a new SWAT team anyway?

  27. Will SWAT teams set aside any personal or professional concerns about the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution and flash bang your butt?

    They will very happily kill you, your spouse, your children, your dog and any elk that happen to pass by. You can always count on the Gestapo to waste your kids so that they can buy their own a new coat.

  28. Thank you George W. Bush.

    Bush was the ass**** who started militarizing the police forces in this country through Homeland Security grants and giving federal law enforcement agencies the power to sidestep around the fourth amendment. The Republican party laid the foundation for a government to strip us of our rights and I for one will never support those criminals again.

    • Actually, I think you can see the rise of all of this under Clinton. Bush consolidated everything and made it “official” and ramped up funding. Obama cranked it up to “11” and ripped the knob off.

      • Yeah Clinton sucked.

        But who started the criminal warrantless searches of your email, snooped on your telephone calls, reviewed your library records, and expanded the use of self written search warrants, and then stored ALL of this data in a
        Homeland Security database for the futuren governments to reference? George W. Bush, thats who. I don’t give a chit how long he’s been out of office, he and every pathetic sniveling GOP kool aid drinker set the stage for the government to engage in a sweeping abuse of power and I’ll be damned if I let any of you forget it. The despicable Republican sycophants at the time cowered in the corner like little pantywaists when our drunken dipchit president at the time started urinating all over the
        Constitution. “I have nothing to hide, I don’t care if they look at my library records.” Do you care now? Do you care that those records may be used as a pretext soon to search your house for contraband guns because you were reading books about AR15 rifles? Yeah. I bet you do.

        Privacy is a foundation of our civil rights, including the right to keep and bear arms. No more sacrificing privacy for the guise of security.

      • No kidding. I didn’t say these guys were better than Bush. I’m just not losing sight of who started the chit. Let this be a lesson to all of us to resist unprecedented expansion of federal power even when a favored party is still governing.

      • JWM, that argument is weak and you know it. There is a very significant difference between a president who actively rolls back civil liberties and creates the lasting bureaucratic infrastructure for a police state VS his successor who, on the balance, effectively continues the status quo.

        I’m as irked as anyone that Obama hasn’t reversed the worst of GWB’s excesses — but they ARE GWB’s excesses, not Obama’s. He has his own separate list of infringements subtle and gross, doesn’t need to borrow any from his predecessor.

        • Argument is weak? barry has continued Bush’s violations of the constitution. He hasn’t set them right or even opposed them. How is he different from Bush? He just gives lip service to liberal ideals while expanding on the excesses of Bush.

          At the end of the day our rights are still lost. Does it make you feel better to know that barry’s now in charge of the dismantling of the constitution?

        • They are both traitors to the Constitution, and Congress has wholeheartedly supported their transgressions. Especially “Patriot”.

          Everybody happy?

        • But the guns. He who is after your guns is the traitor. W never did that. The libs and Barry are.
          The second amendment is ALL.

  29. I thought the back end of that crown vic looked awfully familiar. I remember hearing on the radio about the afternoon standoff at the perp’s residence. Kinda overkill for one moron with grandpappy’s old 870.

  30. Be smart. Before that happens, make sure they’ve been “Lost in a boating accident, sir.”

    …Just remember where that “boating accident” occurred.

  31. I’m of the opinion that it’d be around 25% of LEOs that’d actively take part in door to door raids. Those 25% would be the over-caffeinated, type A, psychotic types who thrive on beating their wife, kicking the family dog and are just itching for an excuse to shoot anyone or anything.

    Many of the cops here in Chicago are locals who grew up here, went to school here, whose dad was a cop and his g-dad before him. Since they have to reside within the city limits, there are quite a few neighborhoods that a heavily populated by cops and firefighters. They very much dislike having to deal with the south and west side $h!thole neighborhoods and the hoodrats that live there.

    They’d much prefer to break up a bar fight of drunk suburban yuppies after a Cubs game than breaking down the door of known gang bangers who have nothing to lose in Englewood or Grand Crossing.

    Besides if it ever comes to this, we’d have to assume that all hell has broken lose. The financial day of reckoning is coming soon and I’m not so sure this is going to be a priority when there’s $8/gal gas, $5 bread and milk and local gov’t need to start trimming pay, benefits and employees.

  32. I think most of you are jumping immediately to the “worst case scenario” and ignoring the fact that there would be simpler ways to do this without expending LEO/SWAT Team Resources foolishly.

    First, whatever Law is passed that amounts to “confiscation” would require Citizens to voluntarily turn-in affected guns by a specified date.

    Second, once specified firearms are declared illegal to own, criminal penalties would be attached to being “found in possession” of said firearms after the deadline date. If you did not surrender them by the deadline date, you will have become a “criminal” under the Law. You would never be able to shoot the firearm or take it anywhere, again…ever.

    So, your choices become: never take them out of the Gun Safe again, hide them, or illegally sell them to another criminal. Never shooting the safe-bound firearm again, or hiding it, essentially accomplishes the goal of the Law. Selling it to someone else is illegal. Any of these “options” that you exercise add to your criminality. You can be arrested and prosecuted for possessing an “illegal” firearm in any number of scenarios, some of which could include a SWAT Team type assault on your home, which puts your wife, children (and certainly your dog) at risk of collateral injury/death, and/or arrest.

    Finally, for however long you mange to hide the “illegal” firearm, you have to live with a high risk factor of being “found-out” and arrested, or raided. You will have the attendant anxiety and stress on you and your Family for as long as the Law is in effect…perhaps the rest of your Life. Ask your Spouse how they feel about that. Ask yourself, “Can I be sure my kid(s) will never say the wrong thing to the wrong person?” or “Am I sure no one else knows/remembers I have this firearm “illegally” and would never “rat me out”?”

    Further, don’t think all those NIC check records, DROS forms and FFL Dealer Bound-books will sit idle forever. The Government could, and probably would, use them to begin active investigations into “illegal” firearms. particularly once they realize a low “surrender” level during the initial “surrender them” window. It may be years, but you will live with the risk that someday some Government Intern will find YOUR name tied to a specific “illegal” firearm that was never turned-in, and Government Law Enforcement Agency will come looking for you.

    Look friends…reality is reality and the Government, if it decides to outright ban the ownership/possession of any currently legal firearms, is not going to go about confiscating them from all of us by force. It would be too difficult, precisely because of all the avowed active resistance.

    In fact, I think the difficulty and complexity of confiscating firearms currently in private hands probably means the Government will settle for “grandfathering” with no transfer of ownership (your children would have to surrender them upon your death), and, of course, no new manufacture and sales in the civilian market.

    I don’t like throwing a bucket of ice water all over anyone’s “Patriot Hero Defender of the 2nd Amendment” visions, but I do not imagine even for a moment that this Government is going to go about confiscating firearms from us by any but the most devious, easiest to sell the the General Public way, and I acknowledge that what I describe above is only one possibility…maybe not even the best possibility. I also think this Government has more, and worse, things afoot for the American People that we are not even sensing yet, including calamitous economic events that will change the US forever. The gun prohibition thing is just a sideshow to distract us from what this Government is really up to.

  33. Folks, y’all need to calm down a bit and do some research. They can’t confiscate unless they first require registration. And they can’t require registration

    The Federal government is not going to come up with a registration order because the US Supreme Court has already ruled that it would be unconstitutional in Printz v. United States:

    Seriously, stop getting your info from the main stream media who haven’t been journalist’s since before Richard Nixon’s time in the spot light. They do no research and hunger not for the truth but instead for a Pulitzer or Peabody or some such nonsense.

    I am a retired Chief of Police in a smalll town and you’re right about the militaization of the police, it’s very definitely the wrong direction. But i am also a retired Army Infantry 1st Sgt and I gotta tell you that when you count up all the shooters on one side and then add in all the LEOs, active military and all the reserves on the other side, the numbers don’t lie.

    There 650,000 deer licenses issued in Wisconsin this year. That means there were more operators in Wisconsin then the entire active Army. Add in Minnesota and Michic=gan and we’re getting close to twice the shooters of all the military and all the LEOS and I would bet you three shiny 1964 dimes to a dozen donuts (I like donuts) that half the LEOs in this country would walk away and probably at least half if not more in the active military.

    • That’s good perspective. I’m quite certain you’re not the only LEO who can do the math and see how things would balance out (or not) in a widespread Prohibition type program.

    • That’s a wonderful ideal fantasy world. I wished we lived there. But, as everyone from our mil at Abu Ghraib, to our police, to the guards at every death camp for the last 100 years who “just followed orders”, the science of how modern humans behave is cut and dried.

      Maybe 1% of active LE and Mil would “walk away” and face criminal prosecution, the ruin of their families and their financial futures. I’d love to think I might be wrong, but I know who interned the Japanese-Americans in WWII without blinking.

      • Wow, sorry but you are very obviously not from, and possibly have never been to, real rural America. Your scenarios about weak willed citizenry giving up so easily are probably very correct where you’re from. The cities, suburbs, and a few coastal states will lie down. Come to a small town to get our guns and don’t be surprised when their all gone. Then, when you get agressive, have fun paying for every inch that you move throught the country, with blood. And 1%? Really? That’s funny, because I’m former active duty and I can tell you right now that those numbers are a hell of a lot closer to 50% than 1%. Maybe higher. All this will never happen of course because our enemies prefer soft tyranny to all out command and conquer. But have a little faith in the country boys will ya.

        • I lived in rural America for a good chunk of my childhood. And sometimes do now. We took our rifles to school during deer season, rode dirtbikes everywhere, carried guns constantly.

          I remember hearing the redneck platitudes (such as they were) about all sortsa things that were gonna get ’em to “rise up and show dem gubbmint boys who’s in charge”. Then when whatever “it” was actually happened, they all mumbled something, talked about having a family, and then gave in, just like those suburbanites.

          I’m aware how “locals” can make you disappear for a dozen reasons with relative impunity. I know they grow pot, make shine, transport other recreational chemicals, sometimes have auto-guns of dicey provenance, and if they really don’t like you they’ll shoot you in broad daylight downtown and no one will see anything (ala Skidmore).

          Glad to hear that you’ll be on the right side should things ever go that bad. Don’t get me wrong, maybe all your friends are in the 1%. But, I’m afraid you’re going to be in for some really big disappoints when it comes to your friends if the SHTF. Especially if it’s a soft gun grab. Perhaps it will all play out differently than it ever has throughout world and even US history. But I doubt it.

  34. If they start coming to peoples doors, offensive manuevers must be put into effect. Bombing, arson, vandalism, uncivil protest, etc…
    You cant fight them when they show up at the door. Asymetrical (gorilla) tactics.
    The assassinations and killings of state/federal gun grabbing traitors would begin after patriots start being killed defending their liberty at their homes.
    We must make sure these unfortunate events never have to happen.

      • I am only talking about ‘other’ people, of course.
        With my luck, my guns will be stolen shortly before they come to my door.
        I love Barry Obama. The cute little jugg eared SOB.
        I think DC is too small and should get more of our money, power, and control.

        • I am saying that after people start dying because their homes are being invaded simply for not turning in their guns. People (I am not saying myself) will think the republic is over and start asymetrical (gorilla) warfare that will lead up to people (on both sides) dying. I am also saying that I hope, and think, this need not take place.

    • Advocating felonies. Awesome. That’s exactly what we need to establish our moral high ground for debating disarmament advocates.

  35. When they come for the guns, we come for them! Starting with the ones that wanted such laws passed in the 1st place. Then maybe they’ll repeal those same laws that will cost them dearly.

  36. Police are conditioned to respond to authority. They will absolutely come to “get your guns”. They don’t want civilians (which is how they see you – even though they are just civilian members of a paramilitary organization) to have guns to begin with. They see that as a risk, because when they stop someone they have to worry about whether they are armed. Police chiefs and Sheriffs are almost all pro disarmament, and your well meaning buddy on the force is going to go along with it, because their first loyalty is to their team and squad.

    • Certainly, not all LEO are pro disarmament. My local Sheriff is a good guy, very pro gun ownership, and is also quite anti-politician. As are the three only other LEO’s I know. Two of them have already said they would not enforce, nor comply with a ban. Most LEO’s are straight-up good guys whom have lousy jobs that don’t pay nearly enough to deal with the BS they get on the street or from the few officers looking to make a political name for themselves. I think people under estimate how many are on our side.

  37. Full camo battle rattle, select fire sbr’s, flash bangs and smoke grenades,an APC, virtually immune from liability, a couple months ago there was a screen grab on here of a SWAT dude in butt-fvck nowhere in a damn ghillie suit. At what point does all this nonsense run afoul of that little “standing army” thing.

  38. And on a side note:
    Why the f#ck are those civilian police in multicam? What part of police, and not an occupying military force, are they missing? Tan or brown jumpsuits would be just fine there. Yet another reflection of the asinine separation of gov vs people. Like in Anaheim with UCP, its a message that every citizen finds unsettling.

    sorry, rant over… back to ranting on all this stupid knee-jerk gun control f#ckery


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