Writing these blog posts, I try to see a story from the anti-gunners’ perspective. It’s all too easy to surrender to The Wilkow Majority perspective: “we’re right, they’re wrong, that’s the end of the story.” The fight to defend and extend Americans’ natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms is won or lost at the margins, amongst the so-called Silent Majority. So when you look at the picture of the owners and employees of St. Louis Ink Tattoo Studio defending their property from Ferguson, Missouri looters by force of arms, you’re thanking God (or whatever) for American gun rights. An anti sees a bunch of yahoos subverting the rule of law, itching to kill blacks. The question is, what does the average Joe and Jane see? [h/t TP]
Home Crime and Punishment Incendiary Image of the Day: Ferguson, MO Armed Self-Defense Editon
I see a group of mixed genders and races defending their workplace against ruthless thugs.
I am tired of people who only see what they want to see.
I see a group of people doing the sensible thing (defending themselves when in danger).
I see “the average Joe and Jane”…and one guy who needs to learn that body armor comes in larger sizes.
I saw the same thing, in reverse order.
What? It was marketed as ‘heart armor’. 😉 100% protection for your sternum.
All I see Is a shop that won’t be robbed that night
Not only is their shop safe, but so is every other storefront in the little strip mall they operate in. Not like you’re going to take a look at 7 armed men and women, say no to robbing them, and then just break into the store right next to them.
Don’t forget that these aren’t blood lusting idiots trying to protect needles, ink, and body jewelry, the tattoo shares a store front with A GUN STORE. So these people were protecting their property, which they have every right to do, but they were protecting the community from looters who may get an itch for some looted guns from a small gun shop that won’t get help from the cops (cough*cabelas*cough) until AFTER they’ve been robbed and dozens, if not hundreds, of guns are in the hands of those who feel society is just too darn hard on them (cough*want free stuff*cough).
They have a right, natural or otherwise, to defend their property and livelihood. Period.
Where are all the anti-OC of long guns and apparel critics standing on this photo?
Fuel for the anti’s? Helping Shannon’s cause this morning?
Or the freaking RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in practice?
Unlike the morons doing stupid publicity stunts, these people are simply defending their property offering a very visible deterrent during the midst of an actual ongoing civil unrest event.
They are not trying to be attention whores parading around trying to stir up controversy and strife.
Get a clue.
You are so wrong and hypocritical it’s laughable.
Yes. those of us that understand the real stakes at play are laughing at you.
I knew I could count on you for this kind of comment. Laughable and predictable.
Yeah, if they all showed up at the local burger joint like that, it’d be the same thing.
I am not a fan of the OC guys in Chipotle simply because they were carrying their rifles low-ready when going about their business. In case you don’t know, carrying in low-ready implies you are going to shoot soon. That is the rifle-equivalent of you carrying your pistol in your hand instead of your holster.
So Paul not liking the OC guys in Chipotle or whatever but not having anything against the people on the photo is not hypocritical.
They were carrying them at low-ready in the photo. Not while they were going about their business. The cops were standing 4 feet out of frame the whole time. If they were going about their business at low-ready, they’d have been arrested for brandishing. Stop with that bullshit narrative, it’s flat out not true.
“In case you don’t know, carrying in low-ready implies you are going to shoot soon. “
(1) Low ready does not imply you are GOING to shoot soon. It implies you are READY to shoot soon. Big difference.
(2) Low ready in a posed photo is really this big of a threat to you? There was NOTHING else about manner and demeanor and body language and totality of circumstances that you would use in your threat assessment?
But, all this is an aside. We can debate the merits of OC and what not elsewhere.
The real point, perhaps just a BIT too buried by time, was that PTM was the very one that was crying a few weeks ago that context does not matter.
Now, all of a sudden, today it does. Imagine that.
The context of the OCT fellows is VERY IMPORTANT to the discussion. To completely dismiss them out-of-hand simply because one disagrees with their method as anti-2A and personal liberty as anything Shannon Watts could do or say.
It is apparent that having the moral courage to allow others to exercise lawful rights without criticism is extremely difficult, even for those that seek to claim the mantle of personal liberty.
God bless these folks standing tall and protecting their property and community from looters and rioters. They certainly have far more courage than those that accomplish nothing more than to criticize the actions of others (such as OCT) from the safety of a keyboard.
I wouldn’t be ready to shoot if I wasn’t expecting/going to shoot.
If it wasn’t true that they carried low-ready outside of the photos then I apologize since I was… mis-informed (more like didn’t follow the case since it doesn’t affect me). I honestly don’t mind people carrying rifles just don’t point it at me or I will dislike it (“better make the first one count since you ain’t getting another”) but most people are uncomfortable with it.
It is completely hypocritical. The silliness extends to people who still go around spewing “low ready! low ready!”, as if the pictures actually depict that stance. Never mind that several people smiling together and taking pictures largely obliterates any reasonable perception that such burrito bar patrons pose a threat to anyone.
In this Ferguson picture, I hope the antis do trot it out for generations hence, while future freedom lovers respond with those of the burned out QT building and the Walmart parking lot in disarray.
These men and the lady are not vigilantes. They’ve broken no law. They’ve arrogated to themselves no law enforcement functions. They’re ink slingers, not gunslingers. They’ve simply exercised their right to keep and bear arms, while preparing, if necessary, to practice their right to self-defense. God bless them.
The arrogant high horse posse, the ones who chastise those at Chipotle attempting to secure their full open carry rights, while only grudgingly acknowledging the propriety of these individuals exercising theirs, are the true vigilantes. They ride in with inconsistent, unprincipled indignation over other people’s actions, which they themselves mischaracterize, and hurl their threadbare slurs at whomever doesn’t fit their own personal profile of proper firearms rights stewardship.
Such insufferable fools do at least the valuable purpose of reinforcing my own commitment to the First Amendment, by my not calling for their hammy, angry exhibitionism to be jackbooted from the stage of all public discussion.
They’re posing for photographs with their guns. Like the “Chipotle Ninjas” you blame for stealing your burritos.
Most people understand the difference between defending your property with a firearm vs. walking onto someone else’s property with a firearm and using said venue as a visible location for a political statement.
Is it appropriate, or effective, to use someone else’s property to make a political statement, without the property owner’s consent? That’s a question for another post.
But they HAD the manager’s consent to be there.
So, what’s the problem?
They were harming no one, there were cops there that were not alarmed and no one (the other customers) were complaining.
What exactly did they do wrong?
Carried a gun? I thought we were the GUN RIGHTS side. If the mere sight of a rifles causes so much pants pissing for our side, no wonder the ‘fence sitters’ and the ‘antis’ respond to guns the way they do.
Well, they ARE posing for a picture. Truthfully, I think that’s enough in itself to make the antis cry “Vigilante!” Maybe some fence-sitters too. But that happens when folks exercise their rights.
What’s “laughable” is the utter inability of some people to make logical distinctions.
Two bozos at a Chipotle posing with their firearms in the midst of a publicity stunt is not the same as people actively defending their property during an ongoing genuine civil unrest event.
6 months from now, and for the next 50 years, this very picture will be trotted out by antis once or twice a month to demonstrate how crazy gun nus are. All you have to do is strip off the text, and Paul will be condemning these yahoos as well. Just out for publicity, idiots, all the usual denigration. A right does not need a reason.
Which right they would not have if not for the efforts of others to ensure that the right to do so still exists. Someone is clueless here, right down to the “T.”.
It seems these people decided to open carry in light of a known threat. Unfortunately, it is the unknown threat that will catch them unarmed, unless they choose to open carry regularly. But then, Paul T. would call them attention whores.
Here’s one. I’ve got no problem with folks like these using their guns as guns. My problem is with people using real guns like stage props and toys.
Well said, sir.
“My problem is with people using real guns like stage props and toys.”
You make that assertion, again, which is nothing more than your own projection. It is what YOU THINK their motivation to OC is.
And no matter how many times you get called on this, you continue to do it.
Exercising the Right To Keep and Bear Arms is its own thing…it is not a “prop.”
Actually…the more I think about what you’ve written, the more I recognize it’s true offensiveness. You seem to believe that
(1) the exercise of the Second Amendment RIGHT to bear arms involves “props”
(2) you have any proper say in how another free citizen exercises his rights.
Quite frankly, for someone to OC for ANY reason is none of your business. Until you realize that, you are no better than any other Statist control freak….you just want to quibble over “degree.”
I couldn’t have stated it any better. Well done.
It’s my business to the extent it’s a subject of discussion on an internet DISCUSSION forum. I’m pretty sure the whole point of the comments section is to express your personal opinion.
It’s kind of ironic that you’re calling me a control freak since the essence of your position is that everyone should think exactly like you do.
“It’s kind of ironic that you’re calling me a control freak since the essence of your position is that everyone should think exactly like you do.
Very adept attempt at deflection.
I’m sorry, but this is pure, adulterated bullsh1t.
I don’t give a CRAP if you think like I do. I do, however, care that you seem to think that you get to dictate to others how they should or should not behave, when said behavior is both legal and moral.
Let me be very clear. What you think about OC or any other issue is not even on my radar…UNTIL you start trying to tell others what they ‘can’ or ‘should’ be doing.
You REALLY don’t understand the concept of personal, individual liberty, do you.
Personally, I do not agree with protesting with rifles at the ready, BUT I should remind everyone that the anti-2nd amendment folks are going to get their propaganda pictures even if they have to hire actors. If anything, if this picture is framed in the context of what is happening around them, it supports our argument for the 2nd amendment.
+ 1,000,000 !!!!!!!
This is exactly the right time for OC. Which is why it’s a shame every time some ninjas make people say “there oughta be a law against that.”
They’re defending themselves and their property from an articulated, near-immediate threat best met with long arms.
One of the characteristics of the ostensible OC demonstrator, that I refer to as OCTards, in forums like this is the lack of respect for dialogue, rational discourse, and tendency to degrade the other person, simply because they dont agree. There is a fine line, of course, and I suppose you could flip that back on me, but one way to discern the person who is presenting themself as speaking from a principled position, with passion,
(good example is Dean Weingarten)
from the immature Youtuber 15 minute of fame wannabe, or worse,
(and here, JR_in_NC I am giving yiu the benefit of doubt, but suggest that perception matters…and if you truly want to persuade, going full retard doesn’t work..)
is by how they conduct themseleves, by words and actions.
A common tactic of the immature, or ego centric, is thread hijacking. Its not only obviously disrespectful, which reduces your credibility, but it stinks up the place foe everyone.
This post is about, “how do you think the middle might perceive this picture?”.
Not, “waaaaahhh, OC demonstration = you are so unfair if you dont agree with everything 100%”
When a commenter can’t respond to the calm opinion, and statement of fact, with anything but a personal insult, the general consensus among adults experienced in innertubz dialogue, going back to the BBS days, that the person is either
a) so self absorbed as to be unable to consider any ‘truth’ other than his own, or
b) a troll
I dont agree with Paul on everything, and I am not defending him, as he doesnt need me, as he is perfectly able to do same…just pointing out that he calmly resonded, with a fact, twice, and those who piled on with scorn only, failed to acknowledge, or counter rationally.
If thats tl;dr for those attention spans trained on MTV or FPS games, no apologies.
Going back to the original question, I don’t know for sure how the moderate middle new to 2a rights might see it. Before I started researching self defense, having two toddlers, and considering their safety, like all the things parents worry about, child proofin electrical outlets, cleaning chemicals stored somewhere safe, not under sink, fence around the swimming pool, etc…
I might have ben initially apprehensive and dismissed the fat kid in camo in Chipotle as an immature kis, or worse, a loose screw. Now that I’ve become more informed, by facts presented in a respectful way, stories, articles, points of view by respectful readers, I am much more what some would call, radical gun rights, not by virtue of outrageous comments, but further reading on the law, the constitution, in re guns.
But I would never have gotten there, visiting the more rabidly ” my way or the highway” websites. Thats simple fascism, and its been a historical failure on the right as well as the left.
The middle ground websites are fewer, because its more work to think, be willing to admit wrong, and be patient.
Its easy to find echo chambers if you just need your ego stroked.
If you really want to create more support for 2A rights, the middle is where the new votes are, and I sense the sea change underway is going in the right direction, more toward constitutional rights, vs statism. But that did not happen without a lot of hardwork, grassroots up, and “the left-progtard-radicals on the far end of the spectrum will not give up without a fight, and are doubling dow, and increasing trollery here at TTAG would be right out of the Alinsky Rules For Radicals community organizer bible.
Here’s the deal, though. I can listen to dialog and respect other’s opinions. No problem. Want to disagree with me? Fine. Cool. I welcome it, because I might learn from it.
But I ain’t the one using phrases like “go full retard” and stuff like that. Find one single comment I’ve ever made with language like that. I don’t make fun of people’s body type or the clothes they wear.
I don’t feel the need, the compulsion, to tell other people how to exercise their natural and enumerated right to bear arms, either. I’m not afraid of the sight of guns in the hands of ANY citizen not actively acting in a threatening manner.
Now, you want to have a rational conversation on the topic of OC of long guns? Fine. Let’s do it. But I’m done the instant the pre-adolescent name calling (like McCain is wont to do) starts. I’m done the instant the facts of what the OCT guys are really doing or really have done is misrepresented. I’m done the first time some bullsqueeze made-up fantasized nonsense is spouted as fact.
In other words…a rational, grown-up conversation is exactly what I WANT on the subject. Some folks around here have demonstrated themselves incapable of that.
(Except that I no longer give a shit enough to have discussion with some rabid anti-OC individuals… Much like I believe about anti-gunners; it’s pointless.)
John in Ohio, I am coming to that way of thinking myself.
Well, when you correct false assertions and emotional nonsense enough with the same individuals, you eventually come to the conclusion that they aren’t going to take an honest look at the facts. Some of the same bullshit arguments coming from the anti-gunners today were being used when I was a kid. These pseudo-arguments have long since been shown to be baseless yet the anti-gunners still run them up the flag pole as if they are something true and new. Same old, same old. If a few of our own can get so hung up on OC like they are then I wonder if they truly understand the very nature of rights. If they can’t or won’t accept ubiquitous open carry then they certainly don’t really understand:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
A real grasp of it isn’t within them, I reckon. When they chips are down, they appear to be accepting of rights-lite. If we were to restore individual freedoms to proper levels today, they’d piss it all away in compromise again tomorrow. IMHO, progressives are pretty bad for the country but statists on the right, left, or in the middle will destroy it. IMHO, statists are frightened of being truly free.
So rlc2; Paul T. Mccain is the voice of reason? You mean this type of reason?
“Unlike the morons doing stupid publicity stunts,”
“They are not trying to be attention whores parading around trying to stir up controversy and strife.”
Paul is the most consistent, vociferous and vicious in his ad-hominem attacks on those he disagrees with. He does not discuss, debate or reasons; he attacks.
Paul was the one to bring up OC people in this discussion; so he would fall under your comment; “A common tactic of the immature, or ego centric, is thread hijacking. Its not only obviously disrespectful, which reduces your credibility”.
Paul has his own issues; being willing to discuss rationally and reasonably with those he disagrees with is not one of them.
ThomasR. This is what is called a strawman argument. You put words in my mouth and ask me to knock down the “strawman”. Its a common enough mistake that it does not mean you are being disingenous. But its a comon enough tactic by trolls, that I simply wont play.
Go back and read again. Its pretty simple: we agree on the right to OC. I disagree on PR tactics, by some. Its all about context, and if you cant put yourself in the other persons shoes, and imagine how they might perceive it, you run the risk of doing more harm than good.
We can debate this all day, but if you cant make the distinction, or want to take your football and go home, because I wont agree with you, that one size fits all, thats fine too. I’m talking real world and what works.
And puhleeze, spare me the concern troll drama for fat kid comments, or mentally challenged, blah blah blah.
My snark is your panty-twisted outrage, and if thats all you got, vs facts, then you belong on FakeBook with the MDA nitwits.
Personal opinion, but roof top (If accessible) would be the most advantageous position.
Number 1 guy on the left has an AK i think, what is the 3rd guy from the left carrying? I cant make it out.
Put a couple on the roof, a couple inside barricaded, and a few in the back.
I would have included several shotguns in that mix, but I admire these guys for doing what they had to do protect their property.
If ever there’s a time when I want 12 ga. slugs or 00 buck, this is it. However, the ammo capacity of a modern sporting rifle also has its merits.
I think riots are a great excuse to buy an M1A or similar mag fed .308 (AR10 maybe?)
.308 in urban area? I thought urban areas are short range, stuff that the 7.62×39 or 5.56 is ideal for (I would go for the x39 due to cover).
I think for situations like this an AK or AR is best. Even better if you can get some reliable drum mags or a decent 4x scope.
In my opinion .308 Winchester is overkill in a short range urban environment and over-penetration could be a serious problem. At 100 yards and closer, 5.56 x 45 mm and 7.62 x 39 mm with soft point or hollow point bullets are rather devastating to a human attacker. And there is less recoil for more rapid/accurate follow-up shots.
I have a hard time imagining that I would feel underpowered with 5.56 x 45 or 7.62 x 39 mm.
308 or 30-06 turn cover into concealment. There are lots of places in an urban environment where the big rounds would be much more effective than 5.56. Less so for an AK-47.
Kudos to these folks.
As for needing barrier penetrating rounds…
These guys are trying to keep looters away, not engaging ISIS, lol.
If the guns even need to get used at all, it’ll be: Point muzzle at threat, watch threat run away.
Maybe, fire at threat, watch threat run.
I can’t imagine for the life of me that a bunch of St. Louis looters are going to be taking up defensive positions and gettting all Fedeyeen about it at the strip mall.
I don’t think thats a gun in the left middle. I think it’s a bat or axe or something.
I can’t reply to lolinski, so I’ll reply here instead. 5.56 and 7.62×39 are great choices, but if I was gonna stock up on ammo, I would buy ball in bulk. We all know how pathetic 5.56 ball is thanks to Afghanistan, but I think .308 ball could have some real “stopping power”
You know, I think I’ll go with something unconventional for urban defense: 9mm carbine. 9mm in a carbine is effective out to 400 yards, inherently high capacity, ammo that is almost-always plentiful and I can use the same cartridges in my pistol. I’m not seeing too many downsides here.
Whatever, what exactly do you mean by “effective?”
If by “effective” you mean “anemic”, then yes.
Okay, then give yourself a cookie and a back-rub for feeling smart. I’m talking about my needs, analysis and expectations, not yours.
Expections, facts, same difference.
A carbine shooting 9mm at close range (30 yards and in) would be pretty effective. Out past 100 yards velocity gets real pathetic really quick.
Here is a rule-of-thumb …
Close quarters combat: pistol caliber carbines shine.
General combat: AR15s and AKs are optimum.
Long range combat: must have rifles … .308 Winchester minimum, .300 Winchester Magnum better, and .338 Lapua superior
If you want to go old school and think out of the box, carry a 7+ shot revolver (with a six inch barrel) and a lever-action carbine in .357 Magnum. The revolver is quite effective at close range. And the lever-action carbine is formidable against human attackers to at least 150 yards with proper ammunition choice. And the tube magazine of the lever-action carbine holds something like 10 cartridges depending the carbine manufacturer and barrel length. Of course revolvers and lever-action carbines are extremely reliable which is a huge benefit.
“Expections, facts, same difference.”
Any experience to go with your expectations?
My maximum expected engagement range in-town is 250 yards. A 9mm carbine should be plenty.
I’m aware of the conventional wisdom on rifle selection but modern 9mm cartridges, by all estimates, are perfectly effective at 250 yards. We’re not exactly talking a bunch of soldiers hell-bent on overrunning a position. A few well-placed shots of 9mm ball from a carbine is sending Ray Ray and his friends home one way or another.
Another thing is that I HATE dealing with a bunch of different calibers so I’m willing to make some trade-offs in velocity and “stopping power” to simplify stocking ammo and magazines. It’s not a trade-off I think everyone should make, but it’s one I’m wiling to consider based on my needs in that particular situation.
Ballistics gel is only analogous to muscle tissue, it doesn’t mimic bone, skin or other vascular tissue.
But yes, the 9 mm is “effective” at hitting a target of ballistics gel and penetrate 9 inches at several hundred yards.
Now, translate that to a human being, who will most certainly be shooting back at you, and all of a sudden the 9 mm isn’t as “effective.” You might be able to hit the person, but can you put them down quickly? Maybe, maybe not.
You can listen to some hillbilly on YouTube shoot playdough.
But, I’ll keep my rifles calibers, thanks.
5.56 ain’t bad even though I am not a fan, I like short barrels and shooting through things which x39 is ideal for. Main problem with 5.56 is people going with shorter and shorter barrels which limit the range it expands at. The cartridge is optimized for a 50 cm/20 inch barrel, the new “tactical carbines” have 25 cm/10 inch barrels. That is seriously bad for a cartridge that gets it lethality from its high velocity. I always say 5.56 if you don’t want to adjust/guess + want lightweight ammo (you can tape 3 5.56 mags together for the weight of two x39 steel mags). While x39 is good if you handload (very flexible) and like/use short barrels + most of it penetrates through barriers and stuff (I have had so many “holy shi* moments with that cartridge).
If I buy bulk it depends on where I am, In southern Europe in my homeland I would go primarily for x39 (the M67 flavor, can get it new since the factory is about a hour away). For northern Europe (Norway) I would go for .308/7.62 (what’s the difference now again?) since that is common and is good against moose and people alike especially through dense forests and long distances. Generally I like a mix between the two.
PS: taping two mags “jungle-style” is a viable and popular tactic if you don’t have mag carrier. Though I would recommend putting some plywood between so that they are oriented the same way so you don’t have to flip the mags. Or y’know, get mag clamps.
PSS: don’t mess with moose, they will kill you. Same applies to African Buffalo.
You aren’t talking about 9×19, are you? 9×39 could work at 400 meters but that is a bit… exotic.
The farthest you are going to use 9×19 at is probably 100-200 meters though drop is really bad past 100m.
Honestly? If I am using a pistol cartridge for longer distances then I am going for 7.62×25 or .357 magnum. Yugoslav Partizans prefered the 7.62×25 because they could shoot nazis while they couldn’t hit them back with their 9x19s.
@lolinski You’re right. I have no experience shooting 9mm carbines and I may have overestimated their effective range. Thinking about all this, I stopped by the house at lunch and took a walk around. The maximum engagement range from my front yard is around 75 yards. In that case, a 9mm carbine should still work, though I’m probably going to follow uncommon_sense’s suggestion and get a SUB 2000 in .40.
A sub 2k isn’t a bad choice. 9mm will work well for 75 meters. If you have a pistol you can get a sub 2k that uses the same mags and ammo. IIRC they make versions with different magwells for this purpose That’s what I would recommend. Would simplify logistics.
AKs and ARs have their place and I like them but PCCs (pistol caliber carbines) have their place and I envy people who PCCs are ideal (so much simpler logistics). So congratulations on being one of those.
“A sub 2k isn’t a bad choice. 9mm will work well for 75 meters. If you have a pistol you can get a sub 2k that uses the same mags and ammo. IIRC they make versions with different magwells for this purpose That’s what I would recommend. Would simplify logistics.”
This is exactly what I’m aiming for, simplicity in logistics, which during an emergency situation is a serious consideration. If the SHTF, I want instant access to a lot of ammo with no hassle, leaving more time and stress capacity to deal with threats and options.
Works for me… I ain’t robbing the place.
Though I wouldn’t anyway, so maybe I’m not the target audience.
@whatever (I can’t reply directly) that’s a great choice I hadn’t thought about. I’ve had my eye on a CX4 storm for a while now… (Maybe with an aimpoint or EOtech?)
The CX4 sounds choice. I’ve been hearing good things about a SUB 2000, but it’s a Kel-Tec.
@KevinL. I may have heard incorrectly about the optics part. No cookie for me.
Kevin L and whatever,
Kel-Tec SUB-2000s are outstanding little carbines. They are extremely reliable and seem to properly feed any brand/type of ammunition. And with an actual gun store price in the $340 neighborhood, you cannot go wrong.
If you go that route, I recommend them in .40 S&W rather than 9mm. The 16 inch barrel increases .40 S&W muzzle velocity to match a revolver in .357 Magnum with a four inch barrel. That means you can launch 155 grain bullets with a muzzle velocity of something like 1400 fps and 135 grain bullets with a muzzle velocity approaching 1700 fps!
And if you get the flavor that uses Glock magazines, you can purchase 15, 22, and even 29 round magazines for them. What’s not to like?
Thanks! I’ll be picking one up with my .308 PTR. 😉
You guys are kidding, right? Third from the left is a silenced SBR with the stock folded, probably .300 Blk, looks like a 9″ bbl and 30-rd mag, most likely AR-based but the action is not really visible. What I can see looks just like mine! A BAT?
Probably where a couple of them went after the photo… during the LA riots, that’s where the (mostly Korean) shop-keepers positioned themselves. On the rooftops. Lots of video pictures of the businesses next door being looted while there’s were left alone.
The Koreans put together a flying squad of ROK Army and Marine veterains. Anybody who has been to Korea knows you don’t screw with those guys.
Amen. Saw ROK marines more than once in my time in. Scary guys. Turks were another group to be left alone.
The South Koreans are used to bad neighbors.
Hey, jwm, good to hear from you, was thinking abiut you otherday.
I remember reading about detachments of Turks who served early in Vietnam? Or was it Korea. The had a politically incorrect habit of putting sappers heads on poles, and were avoided thereafter.
You guys know nothing of badass! During Desert Storm, in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, I shared dining facilities with members of the French Foreign Legion, I didn’t even know the org still existed. They came to eat with loaded machine guns, were never separated from them. And most of them had a look that advised you they would just as soon eat the guy standing next to them as the meal!
There is only one organization that a US Marine will doft his cap to — The French Foreign Legion.
I generally don’t mess with people trained to kill and survive, whether it is special black ops operators or the “Lowly” ground-pounder. Don’t mind talking to them though, a bit funny when I think about it. You have this certified badas$ veteran doing the whole 1000 yard stare thing in one corner and on the other side you have the black sheep of a religious family with a talent/knack for macgyvering and shooting things. while another case is my uncle who did trench warfare in the 90s with a Mauser… nicest guy you will ever meet.
I see a boy that needs a bigger plate carrier…..
The guy is built like me, a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than everybody else. In my experience, the only way to get a proper fitting plate carrier is to custom order it, or build it yourself. Even then, you’d be hard pressed to find a plate that would make use of all that room. Thankfully, steel is a wonderfully malleable material, and plentiful.
Yea man you may need the Shaq sized PC in that case
“Big boned”? My family and neighbours have another word for that, it starts with the letter “f” and ends with “at”.
Just kidding, some people are truly big (though there is a good deal of fat people too). Not trying to be mean or anything.
Sounds like you need the hood off a ’76 Eldorado.
LOL. You can land a cessna on the hood of that Eldorado. Loved that car. But it did feel like you were driving from the trunk with that long front out there.
In the short term the anti’s see, as you say, a bunch of yahoos ‘itching to kill blacks’. However, I see no bodies. That’s because the looters see these tooled up ‘yahoos’ and move on to easier pickin’s. The long term message that will get across to the silent majority is that arming yourself works on multiple levels. It says your property from destruction, it saves in law enforcement costs, and it saves one more almost looter from doing something that could screw up their life. So, I say that we need to see more of this… (armed self defense, not looting).
PS. I see at least one non-white ‘yahoo’ in that photo.
Anti-gun inner monologue: “Oh him? Thats Uncle Tom. Great guy…”
I see them and my inner-gangsta’ declares: it would be better to cause problems somewhere else.
I see if all the store keepers had done the same, there would have been no looting that night and the next time the would be looters would have thought twice before doing something stupid.
Looting IMHO is mostly done by opportunistic thugs looking to exploit a situation which is then followed by gang mentality.
Average Joe and Jane will see a scary situation. Reasonable people avoid areas where rioting and looting are taking place, regardless their views on 2A.
Images such as this can be powerful tools but they won’t help us unless they’re part of a conversation. We need to show such pictures to our anti-2A friends, and force them to see it from another perspective by asking:
* What would you have done if you were the store owner? The store represents your life’s work and your livelihood. It’s how you feed your family, and you earned the money to buy the inventory. You have a responsibility to protect your employees’ safety.
* Do you think that store will get looted? What are the odds compared to other stores that were not protected by such a show of force?
* If someone smashes your front window and you call 911, what do you think the response time will be? Do you think the police can protect you and your employees?
* Would such riots even happen if all store owners were prepared to defend their property in that manner?
Most average Americans won’t have it register either way truthfully, however, amongst the cohort of average Joes and plain Janes they will put two and two together. It can take awhile, but eventually they figures out fact from fiction and good sense from craziness.
We still have one test to go, however. We’ve seen this show of force work several times, but sooner or later it will not. When a group like this kills six or eight looters, how are they going to be treated? If tossed into prison forever for murder or whatever, that is the end of “show of force” validity. If given the keys to the city as heroes, looting will lose a lot of its attraction, and run to buy firearm manufactures’ stock!
Larry is right. My only addon would be, to have a video recorder of some type. This gets rid of the he said, she said problems.
I see a new style tatoo fad emerging, using a centuries old method.
Watch out for lead poisioning.
Another Rohrshack test. I feel sorry for the Anti’s who only see through their own racist lense of hate.
That photo needs to be on the front page of the NRA’s website and every newspaper.
In this case, I don’t think average Joe and Jane will even see this picture. The antis may try to circulate it crying “vigilante”, but it won’t go beyond the anti choir. The looting, riots, and police shooting are the overshadowing stories that average Joe and Jane will see.
Agreed, the only way the Avg Joe/Jane sees this is one Facebook in the form of some anti gun meme
That’s why its up to people like us to spread the news: Local paper editorials, links in comment sections of anti-gun articles, facebook, other social outlets, etc.
Same thing happened during the LA riots, folks saw the shop-keepers with guns and decided there were better places to pillage. (BTW, the LA riots were not blacks uprising/protesting. They were a rainbow coalition of dirtbags of all races taking advantage of a situation to rob/pillage/burn.)
The average Joe or Jane knows nothing and sees nothing.
“Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the average American.”
I look forward to your posts, Ralph, as our own modern day Mencken of TTAG.
I frequent that shop and talked to the owner and i will also be protecting my neighborhood.
People protect their livelihood on farms and ranches from feral animals in exactly the same way.
City or country doesn’t matter, livelihood is livelihood. Feral is feral whether animal or man.
I see a group of hard-working shop owners standing around asking each other, “Where’s the outrage over all this looting?” Funny to me that the media never denounces the rioters and looters. That’s an endorsement if you ask me. These people are doing what any rational person would do, providing deterrent to would-be looters.
The true antis see a bunch of people who stand in the way of the Progressive elties enforcers of social discipline.
The rank and file anti sees the same thing until it comes close to them and then they come running to us for protection like Charlton Heston’s neighbors did in 1992.
The average non gun owning John and Jane Doe don’t think much about it but if they see then they say that makes senses but it will never happen to me so I don’t care.
Those of us who have guns, even the Fudds, understand.
My answer to the rank and file anti’s in my neighborhood will be F-you, but if push comes to shove I will probably defend them becuase it is in my interest to keep thugs off the block.
Even my anti/fence-sitting friends joke that if the SHTF, they’ll just come over to my place. I laugh and then remind them that a mile is a long way to go during a civil unrest/riot situation.
Yeah, and it’s odd too. I’ve had similar comments made to me over the years.
I see another DGU whose only extraordinary feature is the teamwork, loyalty and bravery of the people in question.
Even back in the mid-90s when I mostly agreed with the anti-gun zeitgeist, in the context of riots and looting this image would have been a positive.
People have the right to protect themselves, their loved ones, and their livelihood. The signal gets garbled by fear, uncertainty, and doubt (thanks to the mass media’s unrelenting anti-gun slant), but that’s something the uncommitted on the margins all feel in their gut, whatever they may have been told about guns.
It’s one reason why so much of the anti-gun agitprop is failing; when most people look at a situation like this, what they see is the system failing to protect those who rely on it. People who had guns in their hands had a business to go back to the next day; people who didn’t, didn’t.
The average American only sees what large media outlets and corporate marketing wants them to see…
News you can trust. Fair and balanced. Zero trans fat. 100% real juice. Natural spring water.
It’s all BS. And most people buy it.
All from the Ministry Of Truth
There is a google map documenting the location and nature of events in the area at
will be interesting to see what tonight’s updates are like. Currently, the bad stuff seems to be mostly happen in the vicinity of W Florissant ave.
You know how I know this picture is fake? There’s blacks, whites, men, and women, and anti-gunners state the only gun owners are old, fat, white guys!
I think the big guy on the left could just stand there (armed or not) and be a detterant….that said, looks downright american.
I see smart people.
How would average middle of the road American perceive this?
Hard to say, first because its unlikely they would see this in the StateRunNedia™, and based on the proven anti-gun bias demonstrated there, all too often,
my guess is many would go with the context, ie just accept what the Kool Kids Klub thinks…Kardashian Kulture…
and another sizeable segment might actually be opn minded, but lazy,
and depend wholly on the boob tube, CNN, MSNBC, or online news, like yahoo news, and some older folks are still wedded to familiar print outlets like NYT, WAPO, or online sources like Huffpo, Slate, etc
for their “news” . So they may not be aware how far that has drifted from factual reporting into “opinion” shaping, subconsciously based on bias of the writers, producers, and owners, that the famous Pew survey showed 90% democrat amongst the responding journalists, or worse those readers and viewrs might not be aware of the propagandizing by collusion, by the Journolistas, and the second group recently uncovered, that
combined with deliberate agitprop by the FedGov…see NudgeTeam, is truly bordering on Orwellian.
The newly Awakened segment, which is part of many peoples maturation, per the famous Churchill qoute on liberals vs conservatives, is catching on.
And I believe theres a sizeable number of younger Millenials, particularly in tech who “get” the hype in social media, as they have grown up with technology, and marketed to, and are hip and cynical about the spin, from any angle. Many of these are getting hit in the wallet, hard by school loans, job scarcity, and wait until 2016 when they see their true Obamacare insurance bills.
Historically, riots begin when food runs short. In the digital economy, its easier to pump money to the dependents via EBT cards, bogus disabilities , free medical and school to illegal immigrants, but at some point the merry go round grinds to a halt, and more and more people are waking up to the realization of who pays, and who does not. That $hit gets real, as they say when you cant feed your kids, and those who balance their checkbook, are the first to get it.
Keep Calm and Press On, POTG.
What, no photo caption contest? I propose, “We heard about a riot, but there’s been no riot here.”
Thanks for the shout-out! Be safe there!
P.S. It appears lots of Jezebel (Gawker) agrees about the growth of police militarization – http://jezebel.com/this-is-why-were-mad-about-the-shooting-of-mike-brown-1619522935
I don’t get all the vitriol toward the rev. He agrees with self defense. I think I need a T-shirt with this image on it. Isn’t this one reason we have the 2nd Amendment? And what’s with the caliber wars? The image of guys defending their livelihood is plenty enough to deter looters.
My main comment:
Would concealed carry of a handgun be as effective at deterring a possible attack or attempted looting of any business within sight?
The visual presence of firearms was all that was needed to prevent thugs from considering criminal acts. The reason to carry is to STOP the threat. Period. Done here.
When I look at that picture, I see liberty, freedom, real safety, and more (good things). Should I go on…
I see only ONE thing….what our founding fathers wanted. Not just on the guns, but fellow citizens, white, black, male, female, standing side by side for GOOD!
I see the reason framed in solid gold why open carry of any firearms should be legal in all 50 states. I own gloves, mittens and heavy winter coats. I don’t need to wear them every day of the year, but there are days when I do NEED to wear them. I have firearms of varying sizes and shapes and I don’t need to carry them every day, but there are days when folks NEED to carry them openly. want to convert Shannon Watts and her moms real quick, drop them cute little ladies off in that neighborhood tonight with no cell phones, no money and no body guards and see how quick they wish to become armed.
The average Joe and Jane doesn’t need to speculate on a photo (which, if not for the description, I’d have taken for a group shot at an open carry march) in order to find yahoos itching to kill blacks, or at least eager to seize any excuse to gloat over the death of a black man. They’d only need to read the comments on this site.