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“If you have a pistol, please make sure it is a modern high capacity weapon with a couple of spare magazines in your belt.  The Suarez International company gun, a Glock 17 with three magazines, yields a sum total of 52 rounds.  Figure three rounds per man, and you can reduce an angry mob of panga swinging killers into a fleeing group of bloodied bad guys.  Draw it and yell, “Get The F*** Back!” If they do, run away.  If they do not, shoot the first man in the face. The rest will take care of itself.” This from, where TTAGonist Gabe Suarez holds court. While I appreciate the fighting spirit, and understand the strategy (speed, surprise and violence of action), I disagree on a few points . . .

1. Warning schmarning

Yes, Mr. Not Shooting is the Default Option reckons if you’re about to be attacked by a gang of thugs you can dispense with the pleasantries and open fire. Besides, shouting obscenities will only inflame the situation, should that make any difference.

2. Define the “first man” first

That would be the bad guy most likely to kill you. It could be the closest perp or the closest perp with a gun or the biggest guy or the one moving towards you the most quickly. Come to think of it, IDing your most lethal lethal threat probably wouldn’t be an intellectual exercise. Still, it’s good to have a plan.

3. Aim for center mass

I can see the advantage of running up to an attacker and shooting them in the head: guaranteed hit, guaranteed threat cessation, spectacular violence (to put off other attackers) and a limited likelihood of collateral damage. Aiming for a head shot at any longer distance than point blank is a recipe for disaster. Center mass uber alles baby. The bigger the target the easier it is to hit.

3. Fire one or two rounds per attacker

Gabe’s warriors may carry two mags of nine, but there are plenty CCW permit holders who carry no mags of anything. And/or a self-defense gun with eight or 10 rounds (hopefully of .45). Or maybe even a revolver with five or six rounds (hopefully of .357).

The vast majority of gun owners need to be slightly more judicious in the lead dispensing department. The general rule: everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Three shots per perp? Not even with a Springfield XD(m) 9. In a flash mob fantasy—I mean, nightmare, you don’t have time to be certain of any given ballistic outcome, if you know what I mean.

4. Running beats reloading

If the situation is so frenetic that you can’t get to safety after emptying your gun at your attackers, brother are YOU in trouble. If the criminal hordes are still in your face after firing your initial rounds, I’m not entirely convinced you should bother with reloading. It’s a bit . . . fiddly.

I’m thinking RUN! In fact, it might be a really good idea to run AS you fire your initial rounds. (Training to run ‘n gun at the same time is highly recommended.) What’s more, the best place to reload is from behind cover or concealment, during a break in the action. Again, running away should be priority number one. Reloading, number two.

Of course, reloading as you run would be ideal. I’m sure the Suarez folks practice that action. A lot. But loosing fifty-two rounds with two reloads in the middle of a melee? Good luck with that (and to any nearby non-combatants).

[Note: If you’re with children or other innocents, running may not be an option. In that case, it might be a good idea to crouch and protect friendlies from a defensive position behind . . . anything.]

To his credit, Gabe’s post preaches the gospel of avoidance. And I’m sure he’d be more likely to survive an encounter with a deadly flash mob than this fleshy Jew. Still, as my old man said, I’d rather be lucky than smart. And fast. Very very fast.

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  1. Slow Sunday? Stirring up trouble for link-bait? Why the antagonism?

    1. If you have sufficient cause to draw, you have sufficient cause to fire. The warning is already optional. Hopefully you can defuse the situation by showing a weapon and intent to use it. But you wouldn’t show the weapon unless they already endangered your person. No problems with Suarez here.

    2. The first man. It’s the guy who is initiating hostile contact. May not be the closest, or the guy with the biggest stick. It’s the pack leader, the guy who is driving the rest of the pack forward.

    3, 4, 5. Nitpick much? You’re analyzing a couple of sentences like it was a US Army manual – can your blog stand the same scrutiny? Face if you can hit it, center-of-mass if far away. If you carry less ammo, you carry less ammo, and adjust accordingly. Reload as the situation dictates. If you can run, you should have been running before you started shooting. All common sense.

    I don’t much care for gun gurus, but you’re just trying to pick a fight.

    • I second calling out the antagonism I felt while reading this.

      The tongue-in-cheek use of “flash mob fantasy” really crossed the line. Everyone daydreams about playing with their toys, but we’re talking about our fellow citizens here, members of our own species. Have some respect.

  2. The good thing about the 500’s is that one shot is a sure kill and if someone is standing behind them, their also done(It’s like killing two birds with one stone, but we’re using one huge bullet instead). The rest of the fools will most likely run after they witness the first explosion, and if they don’t then you finish them off.

  3. When facing a mob of angry bad guys, a fragmentation grenade does the job best. My second choice would be a drum-fed submachine gun. As a third choice, I’d hire Gabe Suarez to do my shooting for me. But forgive me for stating the obvious: the odds of anyone facing a mob of “panga swinging killers” is directly proportional to the amount of time spent in Ciudad Juarez. For me, that’s exactly zero. Probably for you, it’s also zero. Probably for Suarez, too.

    • Unless you live in Chicago. I realize Chicago residents are not allowed to defend themselves against violent feral urban types but who thinks this kind of crime is going to restrict itself only to Chicago and not spread? And inspite of what the “authorities” say, when I am in Chicago on business I carry a G17 and a spare mag at all times.

    • Gabe point as I see it is. If push comes to shove you have a choice. You can die as a Lamb or you can die as A Viking. Having trained with Suarez International I have no doubt how Gabe would go out. Gabe and his instructors training are second to none. Most gun schools live in a dream world Gabe and his instructors live in the real world

  4. I’d never heard of him, so I looked over his site. My first surprise was a piece titled “Making The Long Shot” under the subject of counterterrorism. My second surprise was “too much trigger finger will pull the gun to the right for a right-handed shooter and too little will push the gun to the left.” That’s all fine and dandy, but it is exactly backwards-and wrong. I didn’t even have to refresh my memory by holding a pistol-it’s part of target analysis as I was taught by the FBI firearms instructors course for law enforcement instructors. Oh well.

    • Cujo, you have to understand how tacticool Suarez is. He was probably demonstrating how to the fire the gun upside down when he said that.

  5. RF,
    I didnt know you were one of the tribe. Hah
    A gun and this info could of made world of difference to Reginald Denning.
    Shoot any fool to get close enough after drawing and run..rinse and repeat.

    To the CCW that carries only the magazine in the gun, slide a spare in your front pocket. It doesnt take that much room. Redundancy saves lives.

    Shalom Aleychem,


    • I agree that a second magazine or additional speed loader (at a minimum) is mandatory.

      There are so many good concealable magazine pouches or holders that there is really no reason to have a second or third magazine quickly available.

      We were taught by our firearms instructor at the academy NOT to carry extra mags in our pocket, unless there was absolutely no other option. The pocket offers a lot of opportunity for dirt, lint, damage, loosened top round, or other maladies to interfere with or damage the magazine. Some carry extra mags in a plastic zipper sandwich bag, but our instructor did a little skit about fumbling with it during a stress situation, how much longer it took to reload, and how often a magazine would be dropped. He emphasized that there was no good substitute for a decent single or (preferred) double mag pouch.

      My primary concealed carry holster (DeSantis Tuck This II) has an integral single magazine pouch. I have practiced reloading from this pouch/holster many times, and can quickly and smoothly reload from this tuckable IWB holster.

      A few days ago here on TTAG there was a discussion about “printing” when carrying concealed. A good followup topic here would be a discussion on the trade-off between the excellent concealability of the uber-small 9mm (and .40)
      pistols such as the Taurus 709, Taurus 740 (identical to the 709 but in .40), and the Ruger LC9 to the wider double stacked handguns. I have carried my 10+1 capacity Taurus PT 145 Millenium Pro (.45) in a tuckable IWB (HighNoon Split Decision), along with an extra 10 round mag in a concealed pouch, but since it is thicker than my current concealed carry (LC9), it is not as concealable, as the print is slightly more obvious. One advantage to the classical “SMF” vests is that they generally can conceal a larger capacity handgun (or 2), plus often have several integral mag pouches.

  6. Flash mobs of black teenage thugs are basically cowards and will run at the first sign of significant resistance. After the first two or three rounds, the security film will show them bounding out of the store like frightened deer. Note that the intellectual giants of the flash mob only attack places with security film, so running away after shooting or displaying a gun will not help much.

    • Because flash mobs of black teens are so much more dangerous than the allowable white kind. They will probably be playing loud music and wearing baggy pants, which indicates they are criminals.

      • No, actually, they will be smashing windows on cars and the fronts of shops, and will be looting, unless they are in a neighborhood in the north east, in which case they will be passing out leaflets for the big Obama rally at the site of the future windmill plant (which hasn’t been built yet, it’s waiting for a hearing with the EPA) which will eventually be built in someplace else, where the people like Magoo won’t have to see it.

        • It’s incredibly unlikely that we will ever have to face a violent flash mob of any kind. Gun loons just like to fantasize about it because they are sick and twisted that way. Gun loonery is based in large part on race and class fear. The majority of gun loons are not people who live in depressed areas with high crime rates. Gun loons are old fat white guys who live in the suburbs.

          • Now that, sir, is a racist remark. I know plenty of people who would qualify for your definition of “gun loon” who are black, asian, Hispanic and Chinese.

          • Magoo:
            We are at the beginning of a flash mob fad. It will grow worse and then recede as steps are taken to counter their tactics. The fad will fade when the mob begins to take casualities, i.e,. a combination of they get shot or arested. So far most flash mobs go after property and not people but as the flash mob on the Chicago Lakefront did a couple of weeks ago they will sometime go after people. I suspect the June 9th Brighton Beach episode was SM enabled as well.

            S0, do you wear seatbelts? Statistically speaking you will not be involved in an automobile accident that will require a seatbelt to prevent injury or death.

          • Have you guys ever stopped to consider WHY you endlessly obsess about fantastically unlikely personal risks such as these, instead of the actual threats you face, including car accidents, heart disease, stroke, diabetes, falling in the bathtub, etc etc etc?

          • @Magoo

            Wow… you really have no idea what you’re talking about. Like, at all. I’m not sure why I see so many people here granting you the respect they do, because all I ever see you do is post bigoted insults. From which, using your logic, I infer that you’re a physical coward with few (if any) actual principles.

            I will grant you this much though, it’s largely true that “gun loons” typically don’t inhabit crime ridden inner cities. That’s because places with a lot of armed residents can’t become crime ridden.

          • One of two things or both Your either a Black person or someone who has never left the house and never has been in a bad area in ANY TOWN Having gone through three race riots you can bet race is an issue

          • “Magoo says:

            June 27, 2011 at 7:55 AM

            It’s incredibly unlikely that we will ever have to face a violent flash mob of any kind. Gun loons just like to fantasize about it because they are sick and twisted that way. Gun loonery is based in large part on race and class fear. The majority of gun loons are not people who live in depressed areas with high crime rates. Gun loons are old fat white guys who live in the suburbs.”

            Thanks, Magoo. I can finally breathe knowing I am not a gun loon.

    • Even though this is a day later I’m compelled to comment: In my historically pretty safe neighborhood, we have had over the past year several swarm beating incidents. A dozen or more teens attack a single pedestrian, a man walking his dog, a schoolboy, a young woman jogging… You may face different odds, but broad assertions don’t mean much.

  7. in any news report of actual mob violence, gunfire will scatter an unbelievably large group of angry people. admittedly a small sample but its a uncomon occurence too.
    never underestimate the fear of being shot . we all have it .

  8. Why would you predetermine how many rounds per person? You shoot until the threat is gone. That’s self-defense 101.

    Cujo: Your hands must be built different than mine and the Army must teach differently than the FBI. Too little finger pushes the weapon inwards and fat fingers pull the weapon outwards.

    • I must have missed that class. I practice double taps per perp (.45). WIth repeat servings as needed. No more. No less. I hope. You know, if it ever came to it.

      • FBI states three shots and repeat. No empty mag… that is excessive force if the threat goes down after three. I don’t want lawyers on my ass.

      • Now I’m confused. Unless I’m missing some nuance, “double taps per perp. WIth repeat servings as needed” is the same number of rounds fired as “You shoot until the threat is gone.” It isn’t “one or two rounds per attacker.”

        Is there is some legal or tactical implication to my wording that is incorrect?

    • Check again. Too much finger moves the barrel to the left-and the round hits to the left of center, for a right hand shooter. Trust me. If you have to,try Google. Even quicker, look at the way your hand closes and imagine more finger than necessary. I’ve taught hundreds, if not more, I know what I’m doing.

      • I didn’t have to imagine. I pulled out my pistol, cleared it, and played with it. Tip of the finger made the front sight jump left (in my right hand) and close to the joint made it go right.

        Is there a difference between single and double action? I don’t have a DA pistol to play with.

        Edit: Google spits out results saying both ways.

          • Yep, I’m right handed-but ambidextrous with handguns. It’s more pronounced firing double action with a revolver, but with too little finger the pivot point becomes the right side of the trigger-veering the muzzle to the right-and can be identified by consistent right groupings. With too much finger the pivot point becomes the left side of the trigger-veering the muzzle to the left-and can be identified by consistent left of center groupings, with a right handed shooter. In practiced shooters you won’t see it as much until you get out to a distance-50 yards or so. Believe me, I don’t give out bad advice, that’s what bothers me about places charging a mint who give out bad dope. The only other cause of a consistent grouping to one side, save the weapon or improper sight alignment, is shooting with the non dominant eye. (unless you have one hell of a crosswind-consistently.) I’m the first to admit I’m a little crazy, but I won’t steer ya in the wrong direction.

          • Hey Cujo, thanks for taking the time to explain everything but I can’t recreate your results. You’re saying that the trigger is the fulcrum and the force is coming from the muzzle, right? My experience is that the hand/wrist is the fulcrum and the trigger squeeze is the applied force. I have no idea what I’m doing differently than you.

      • Erh… Since I’m blessed with small hands I don’t know nothing about “too much trigger finger”, because with almost any gun with caliber higher than .380 I have too little trigger finger. And due this my grouping went left for right-handed shooting and right for left-handed. Not always – gun dependant. 🙂 But, usually. True for one hand shooting.

        • Aw, you guys are driving me crazy-and that’s a short trip. You are right on differing opinions, even at one sight -same page, I found one saying it didn’t matter, one agreeing with me, one vague. Secretly, details drive me nuts, but trying to think about it and do it are two different things. If I’m wr..wrr…, that other thing than right, I’ll let you know. Where’s Elmer Keith when you need him?

          • I’m vague? 🙂
            Maybe its gun related, after all. Though I haven’t seen same side (i.e. right for right hand and left for left hand) twitching aka jerking, I’ve shot not that much types of handguns. Hard to do, living in country where you cannot own handgun, right?

          • No, I didn’t mean you’re vague, Rudy. It was a sight called frontline, discussing finger placement on the trigger. I have to admit it was a boring sight too, no pics or defined topics, just lines of member entries. It must suck being in a country with tough gun laws, I love shooting and have saved my behind many times from having a weapon. When you have people trying to pry open your front door at midnight, waking you up, that weapon is worth its weight in gold.

          • I understood that you didn’t meant I’m vague, Cujo. 🙂 But placing smileys sometimes spoils everything. As well as not placing them. 🙂
            Anyway, if memory serves I’ve seen diagnostic target either in of your military manuals, which were available in plentiful numbers throughout the web before someone “up there” decided to tighten nuts of security and “play Britain” (trust me, getting some military-related info, even about distant past (like 18 century Britain Navy uniform for miniature making buddy of mine) is real PITA with Tommies). Later I saw something similar on some site dedicated to 1911 cause (maybe Also I’ve seen other variations of that “what-I’m-doing-wrong diagram” on other sites (like academy of bullseye or something like that).
            And yes, its sucks being in country with tough gun laws. But I’m pretty happy that I’m not in Britain or similar country. We can have shotguns and rifles, but not handguns. For that – either rent or saving money on foreign tour to country where guns are more loyal. Rent have two problems – you can rent local guns which cheaper to shoot, but well known, and thus less interesting (plus ranges usually small, indoor and allow only static shooting on static targets), or you can rent limited array of foreign guns, which are expensive, at least with my salary (1$ per round, 100$ per hour (though this considered training), in country when 12K$ per year is good income). Visiting neighboring countries have own issues, everybody looking at you like on potential migrant.
            Moreover, lack of ranges around. We have just a couple of relatively big and safe ranges (for shotguns) in territory bigger than 2 Vermonts. And even one Vermont has around 40 ranges (including archery). If you spent 4-6 hours daily just to get to work and return home, you barely will have time to visit range often. And shooting nutnfancy style “somewhere in western desert” is not adequate. And not because closes desert is too far. 🙂
            But I’d better stop, lest somebody consider me sociabl… ahem, whining. 😀
            Protect your Second Amendment guys. It is our last and best hope.
            P.S. Why it is impossible to reply directly on desired message? To prevent “too much drift” to right side of screen?

  9. Repeal the 1986 Hugh’s Amendment to the FOPA. A three-burst AR-15 SBR with suppressor and aimpoint and SureFire 40 rounder would be an excellent crowd control weapon.

  10. With a group coming at me and no immediate avenue of escape, if I see it’s do or die, I’d take out the closest to the furthest in that order,assuming no one was immediately drawing down on me. If I clearly had a “T” shot I’d take it, but more than likely I’d go center mass to upper center mass. Normally I have a second piece, so I’d go to my “New York Reload” first if I couldn’t immediately feed a new magazine. Double tap was so ingrained into me back in the day that I can’t say I wouldn’t revert to it again. If I was still in deep, I guess it’d be cutting and cracking knee caps-unless I had Magoo to throw at them.

    • Sgt. York says furthest to closest so they don’t know how bad the situation is, for them.

        • Cujo is spot on. Sgt. York wanted them to keep coming so he could shoot them all. I’m thinking that the goal here is to stop the attack. A couple of their buddies going down may give them all cause to flee… especially if you get the T shot and they end up covered in bits of their buddy.

          • Thanks, Josh. My devious mind never quits. I must be doing something right, I’ve survived this long. It ain’t from clean living.

  11. I know its fun to think about the tactics involved in surviving a mob attack, but I don’t think of a mob attack as a likely event. If we’re talking about an WROL situation, then maybe. But if that’s the case we’ll all be in our bunkers with our AR’s, our 10K rounds of ammo and years worth of food and water. We won’t be bumping into any mobs in there, right? 🙂

    • It is. This is the imaginary race fear version, where young black men form cell phone groups which suddenly appear to… hmm. I don’t know, scare white people or something. Boo!

      • Oh, so I’m the racist projecting my racism. Gotcha. But what of people of color who fear flash mobs? Are they racist?

        • Flash mobs represent a real and important fear in your life? Really? Top 10 personal danger? Top 50? Top 100?

          • IMHO one time could be more than enough. And since my version of this role-play game was supplied without save/load…

          • I think most people are thinking of a scenario like New Orleans after Katrina or the L.A. Rodney King riots when they “fantasize” about mobs, zombies, etc., and so I don’t think this is an irrational fear.

            I don’t tote around fifty rounds now, but if we have another hurricane Hugo (I live in Charleston, SC) I would. I have a family to protect and I think I would be negligent if I didn’t prepare for such an event now. I don’t plan on crashing my car, but I buckle up every time I drive it. I don’t see how that’s so hard to understand.

          • Magoo:

            What does it take to embarrass you? Many flash mobs have been reported in the media over the past month. You can bet that they will become more frequent during the summer months. Flash mobs activities have ranged from simple pranks to vandalism and theft to physical attacks on bystanders. Somebody will eventually die in one of these events hopefully a member of the mob instead of an innocent victim.

            I don’t understand why Robert considers you knowledgeable. I don’t see anything beyond Wikipedia in anything you write. Most of what I see you write can found in the Huffington Post, the Nation, Media Matters or the Daily Kos so I suggest instead of attempting replicate their work you simple post the link.

          • I’m not sure what size of the “mob” we talking about, but I’ve read reports (i.e. not media) on several “group attacks” (usually up to dozen of “assailants”) on lone victims. Some were killed, some severely beaten. Not all of victims were robbed, “just” killed or beaten. Worst part of that – some of attackers were… teenagers. Mad world it ain’t.

        • Well, where would you rank the danger? Below motor vehicle accidents but above saturated fats? I’ll ask you again: why do YOU think you are disproportionately preoccupied with this threat? Go ahead, take a stab at it.

          Personally, I’m more worried about getting brain cancer from my cell phone. Okay, I’m kidding. My personal level of concern over both is absolute zero.

          FYI, I almost never read any of the sources you cite here. Contrary to what you lovable magpies like to believe, I am not a leftist and I am only a liberal according to the Brad Kozak/Fox News definition: I’m not a conservative. If you’d like to read up on something interesting, here’s a term to web-search: “mean world syndrome.”

          • Where do you get the idea that I am preoccupied by Flash Mobs? Because I pointed out that it is a growing fad and eventually someone is going to get killed.

            I used to tell my son that “kids his age always think bad things happen to the other guy. Don’t be the other guy’s other guy.” Flash mobs are the “in thing” this summer just like streaking was in a more innocent time. Propabillities don’t really apply once you find yourself in the line of fire. So just stick your head in the ground and tell yourself that you will never be the other guy.

          • tdiinva says: “Where do you get the idea that I am preoccupied by Flash Mobs?”

            Umm, because you can’t make yourself shut up about it?

          • Still smarting over the Wii are we? If you were a stand up guy instead of a weasel you would of +1-ed it.

      • You must be Black or you have never been to any bad area of ANY big town. After going through 3 race riots no doubt race is an issue

        • “lostone1413 says:

          June 28, 2011 at 7:57 PM

          You must be Black or you have never been to any bad area of ANY big town. After going through 3 race riots no doubt race is an issue.”

          Cleveland’s East Side by any chance?

      • “Magoo says:

        June 27, 2011 at 9:57 AM

        It is. This is the imaginary race fear version, where young black men form cell phone groups which suddenly appear to… hmm. I don’t know, scare white people or something. Boo!”

        Odd just yesterday. Or was this something not to be feared?

        Again, enjoy the bubble you have yourself in, Magoo. You think you have it all under control, I pity you when you find out you don’t.

  12. Well, a case could be made for the 1974 Zebra murders. Or multiple klan/skinhead/nazi murders. It kind of goes both ways, so to speak.

  13. The stories about the repeated Peoria flash mobs all stress that both black and white residents are fearful of them. So I guess those black people who fear black flash mobbers are themselves racist, right Magoo?

    While apparently Peoria’s black flash mobbers themselves – who go around yelling “Kill Whitey” at local residents – aren’t racist, in Magoo’s world…


  14. I’m always suspicious of people who are so enamored of rankings and lists. It’s never the thing at the top of the list that gets you. It’s the one you don’t see coming. I kind of sum up my own philosophy with the phrase, “Fortune favors the prepared.” You can take anything too far, of course, but owning a gun and knowing how to use it seems to me to be perfectly reasonable response to preparedness for a number of scenarios, the most likely of which is a natural disaster.

  15. Rudy, If you’re ever in the states, and particularly South Carolina, you’ll be my guest at the range. I spend $220 a year on membership for an air conditioned range, free rentals including submachine guns-I just have to buy the range’s ammo. I don’t know why it’s hard to match up messages sometimes, I figured it was my “north korean” lap top computer! I do know this new “play for free” music application on the bottom keeps making me jump-it goes off whenever it feels like it! I’m still a bit jumpy after all these years from the military!

    • Thank you, friend, I respect that. Can’t correctly quote The Three Musketeers (haven’t read them on English), but IF I ever get in US, it seems I’ll have a lot of people to visit and there could be problems visiting someone after another… err, “someone”? 🙂
      Not sure about your “north korean lap top” (well, if it was made on soviet technologies, it should has size of big good suitcase :)), but on 3 different PC this site seems have same limitations, so it is not bug, it is feature. 😉
      P.S. No offence meant – from what I don’t know of PC related info you can create a very thorough encyclopedia.

  16. Jesus, tdiinva! 30-40 people in one group! Methinks I would start carrying my Kel Tec PLR 16 in my 5.11 sling bag/submachine gun holster.

    • I think I would go with a SAW, The M-60 is just too bulky. Do you think the ATF would sell me one if I said I was taking it down to Mexico?

      • As long as you hint you’re cartel. I miss my old M60, starting brush fires on an overgrown range was worth the weight. The belts did get cumbersome though.

  17. Hey Josh, it’s all good. Yes, the force of say, too much finger will squeeze the trigger and the drawing close of the fist will move the muzzle to your left as you squeeze the trigger-resulting in a left of center impact on the target. I love all weapons discussion, except when people get insulting and obnoxious-but we know who those few are. I’ll tell you the weirdest discovery ever was an old war time production M1 carbine which made its way from the US military to the Phillipino service. It finally ended up in the surplus market to the gunshop I ran. The customer brought it back so I took it to test fire. It kept going way left. After much adjusting of the trigger I finally looked at the muzzle. The bore was off to a hard left, almost all the way to the chamber. It permanently was off over a foot at 15 yards.

  18. The CDC has data that shows the lifetime odds of being a victim of a violent crime in the US is slightly higher than that of dying in a motor vehicle accident. Yet, no one thinks anything about wearing a setbelt but some here think its odd to have the best protection from violent crime.

  19. First, a gun is far, far, far from the best protection against violent crime, as any reputable authority on self defense will tell you as you walk in the door.

    Also, the claim about auto accidents vs. violent crime is false. In fact, you are far more likely to be involved in an injury auto accident. The CDC stats do not support your assertion. Bring out the numbers and I will show you how that fable was constructed. It’s kind of amusing when you see it.

    … more on violent crime stats: the majority of violent crimes are assaults, and in the majority of assaults the perpetrator is known to the victim. Fix that issue in your life and your exposure to violent crime is slashed to a fraction of that of the population as a whole, and to a tiny fraction of the traffic injury numbers. Really, it’s fairly bogus to compare violent crime and traffic injury numbers. The latter is relatively distributed across the population while the former is concentrated among certain at-risk groups.

    • Debating the odds of needing a self-defense firearm is, as the Brits say, a mug’s game. As I said before, it’s irrelevant. There are people who refuse to fly because they don’t want to die in a plane crash—even they know they are safer in the plane than they are in the car ride to the airport. You can call those people irrational or phobic, and I wouldn’t disagree. But they have a choice whether or not to fly in a plane.

      By the same token, you may believe that a civilian carrying a defensive firearm is, by definition, a gun loon. In this case, I would disagree: the odds of facing violent crime are high enough that protecting against its devastating potential impact is a rational choice.

      Remember that some of us have higher risks than others; the OFWG meme (proudly launched here) is an average. As a gun writer on the internet, I face more risk than a relatively anonymous office worker. A landlord faces more risk than a single-dwelling homeowner. Some of our readers may purchase or consume marijuana on occasion, exposing themselves to greater risk. Some are young and foolish. Some are old and stupid. Some may live in high crime areas. Or practice medicine. Or law. Or walk through a bad area to get to a commuter train. Or walk to their car at the train station at night.

      All have the right to assess their risk. All have the right to keep and bear arms—should they (not you or the government) decide that doing so decreases their odds of serious injury or losing their life. Or should. And if they believe that they need a gun in case of government tyranny or zombie attack, well, that’s covered too. Strange but true.

      • Ha! That was awesome! You forgot middle age and Busey-like, though. I am obviously the exception to the odds, lucky me. I’ve stopped a home invasion, been permanently injured in a wreck, had drug dealers out to shoot me-as a cop who didn’t care who their family was, and play the heavy when there’s ever any trouble in my neighborhood. (I figure if you don’t get involved, it’s your fault too when the neighborhood goes bad) The one thing I can say is that I’ve never had any run in with someone who wasn’t a criminal, or engaging in criminal activity. I never had trouble with a legally licensed and carrying fellow citizen. Imagine that.

    • RF, you have the legal right to carry a gun and I wouldn’t stop you if I could. You do seem to be conscientious about firearms safety, though you do have some definite mall ninja/range commando ideas to work out — but that’s your deal. Good luck and don’t shoot your toe off.

      But consider this: In your daily life as an urban American, you have far more need for a plumber’s helper than you will ever have for a handgun. Do you have any desire to walk around with a plumber’s helper strapped to your belt 24/7? Hell, no. You’d look like a dork. But you want to carry a gun, not because you have any special need for it, but because, unlike a plumber’s helper, you think a gun is cool. That’s what this is aaaalllll about and we all know it. Give me a break. Nobody is fooling anybody.

      But what if the gun is every bit as stupid-looking as a plumber’s helper and you are indeed a full-blown dork? Just something to think about.

      • I carry a gun to protect my life. [Insert joke about cops being too heavy to carry.] I can’t be cool-look oriented, as the weapon is concealed.

        • Not looking cool, being cool. Open carry will indeed make you look like a dork. There’s no disputing that. You may we well add a tinfoil hat and complete the ensemble. Concealed carry allows you to feel like a stud without looking like a crackpot. Jeez, why do you THINK you guys spend so much time obsessing about the aesthetics of the gun, holster, etc?

          • And why people discussing what they like? Be it PC, car, some trinkets, or clothing, or food. Its mashed potato, I don’t care are there ripples on its surface or not. Or big rectangle plate with lemon slice, olive, some parsley leaves and all criss-crossed with two sorts of gravy. What’s that? “Dig here”? Maybe there is some meat hidden under lemon?
            Ow, and about PD tools “aesthetic”: “what you like will serve you right.”

  20. Redundancy saves lives.


    Speaking of trigger control, I find that the unfashionable weaver stance allows me to double tap a head quite well. But ya gotta practice!

  21. Well, my state, SC, has joined the ranks of mob activity. Some poor kid got his brains kicked in in Columbia.

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