It’s been less than a month since new federal rules took effect attempting to rein in the proliferation of so-called “ghost guns,” a catchall term for unserialized, home-built firearms that Democratic leaders, law enforcement officials, and gun control groups say are turning up in the hands of criminals across the United States.
But barely a few weeks into the new regulatory regime, the firearms industry has already adapted and scored an early legal victory. And gun enthusiasts have created and released open-source blueprints for a simple plastic tool that offers a relatively quick, easy—and apparently legal—workaround for anyone who still wants to build an untraceable weapon.
The tool, known as a jig, is designed to help with the assembly of the exact type of Glock-style pistol frames that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is trying to restrict. One version was posted by Ethan Middleton, a Wisconsin-based 3D-printed gun file designer known online as Middleton Made.
“It’s the biggest middle finger to the ATF,” Middleton told VICE News. “Whatever they’re going to do, we’re going to try to find a way around it.” …
The new rules say that when an unfinished frame or receiver is “distributed, or possessed with a compatible jig or template,” it can be considered a firearm under the law because it makes completing the build process faster and easier.
As a result, some retailers have responded by selling only the pistol frame alone, while others are selling kits that include the necessary parts and tools but no frame. Jigs are a common tool and factory-made versions are available online, but prices have climbed to over $100, making the 3D-printed version an extremely low-cost alternative.
Another designer that created and released files for a 3D-printed jig, who goes by the handle Mr. Snow, told VICE News the ATF’s new rules were in place for less than a week when he released his file publicly for anyone to download. The point, he said, is to keep “entry level” gun building accessible as a hobby. He also voiced frustration with the rule change, saying it’s still vague about exactly when an unfinished frame and other tools and parts cross the line.
“It’s like Schrödinger’s gun,” said Mr. Snow. “We’re not really sure when it becomes a gun. It just depends how hard you look at it, and which amalgamation of parts you have.”
— Keegan Hamilton in A Simple Plastic Tool Is Undermining New Ghost Gun Rules
Hopefully this unconstitutional, ignorant, and communist-paranoid law will be filed on and thrown out by the courts. Since the SCOTUS stated they’ll look at bump stocks maybe they’ll look at this too?
These are not laws, they are regulations made up by bureaucrats with the blessing of the government. Most of this has never been voted on by any legislators.
Yes I know that but they’re in effect regardless and it will take lawsuits to stop it or laws passed prohibiting this practice at the right time.
That’s technically and philosophically correct, but also irrelevant in practical terms. It may not be an actual law, but it’s considered to have the force of law and is backed by a force of hundreds of thousands of armed and highly organized people. Remember the (massively illegal but universally enforced) Covid lockdowns?
Mao Zedong may have mentally been a psychopathic 8 year old who tried, and miserably failed, to emulate the monstrous Stalin, but he was absolutely correct when he said that political power grows from the barrel of a gun. As long as the politicians and bureaucrats have a boots on the ground army willing to act as a domestic enforcer class it doesn’t matter if what they want is technically “law” or not. I promise, cops enforcing an illegitimate and illegal edict vs cops enforcing a genuine law looks exactly the same to their target, and it’s not like we can trust the courts to sort out the difference in an honest manner
this is unaccptable !
“Since the SCOTUS stated they’ll look at bump stocks maybe they’ll look at this too?”
They implied they would look at it, but offered no guarantees they would grant cert. to one.
That’s a *big*, and important difference.
‘Job 1’ for the POTG in dismantling ‘gun control’ is to present a case to the High Table, er, the SCotUS, that they will want to take a swing at it.
Let’s figure out what they want to attack, and hand Justice Thomas a properly-constructed case with a pretty bow on it to kick the Leftist Scum ™ square in the teeth… 🙂
I’m trying to figure out where the organization came from that basically caved and instituted this. Years ago VISA supposedly refused.
And I haven’t heard about DISCOVER or Diner’s jumping on the boat.
give everyone a unique maker’s mark. done.
i’ll take cask strength.
for those wheated days.
What about Rye or Barley days? 🙂
This should be fun. So, I guess as long as I leave my jigs at my brother’s house (he has no 80% receivers) then my box full of “BLANKS” should be cool right? Or do I need to find a separate stash for all the completion parts I’ve accumulated over the years? Asking for a friend…
Yeah, wondering the same here. So if a person happened to see this madness on the horizon earlier this year and bought some blanks (when they still were shipped with the jigs as standard), and stored them away for the future, did they suddenly morph into firearms? Or if a full parts kit was separately bought from a separate vendor to match that blank, and all items necessary to build a gunn are present (but no tools), but still in their original packaging, unopened, and not physically possible in their present state to fire a round, is that person now legally considered to be in possession of a firearm for prosecution’s sake?
Asking for my own friend…
Your friend is right to question those things. I have all of my internal “components” in boxes marked repair parts and I do have trigger groups, springs pins and assorted stuff for all of my firearms so I’d say “PROVE” intent without some sort of preparatory action. Parts break, gotta fix em.
“…is that person now legally considered to be in possession of a firearm for prosecution’s sake?”
My kits had jigs made of plastic, so I suppose if one was to place their jigs in a heavy-gauge Ziploc freezer bag and buried them somewhere, metal detectors would have a very hard time trying to ‘detect’ something they were unable to detect, so to speak.
*Cough*. 🙂
but IF “they” come nipping round to have a squiz at your toy shop, HOW can they establish at what point in time you acquired each one of the component bits to “comprise” the “firearm” now lying on the table in an heap of bits?
Did you get all those items gathered up early this morning, or did you have them gathered up two years ago? WHO saves recepits for useless bits of plastic and metal, anyway? For GUNS< my oh yes I save those. But for bits and pieces and parts and tools? WHY? I've a workshop full of such things.
They can NOT, absolutelym come round today and declare something you made lawfully two years ago to now be a crime to possess. That is "ex post facto law" and straighty proscribed by the US Constitution.
These clowns are busy playing at charades, the sad part is that they do so on OUR dime, and at OUR peril. I've little doubt SOME will take up residence behind grey iron bars as they wear the latest fashion in orange onesies. Because they did what someone decided was "malum prohibidum" and which harmed no one.
Now if I were to make one of these "untraceable" firearms, then use it to wantonly kill someone in cold blood, I should, no MUST be charged with that murder and prosecuted/imprisoned. For I will have done clear harm to some innocent one. But the simple possession of a gdget comprised of various bits of plastic, metal, some screws, pins, springs, etc, and has not nor will be used to cause HARM, should NOT be a crime.
Meanwhile that deluded female in Los Angeles running to sit as mayoress over that blighted burgh had two handguns stolen from her residence….. she who is stahnchl ANTI guns in the hands of we little people. Apparently the secure case was not attached, and someone who apparently knew her home simpl went in and fetched them out. Those guns belonging to she Who Hates Guns. Will SHE be prosecuted for her carelessness? Yeah right.
F-Troop absolutely love “constructive possession”. Oil filter plus adapter ring equals suppressor.
But that pil filter fits my CAR, that’s why I have it here.. dummies!!!!
Why the concern?
What am I missing?
If you have unfinished “receivers” and a template (jig), you’re in possession of a firearm?
So what?
It’s a “PMF”.
So what?
Unless you’re a “prohibited person” what difference does it make?
“The final rule:
Does not prohibit an individual from making their own PMF.
Does not mandate unlicensed persons mark their own PMF. ”
page 21 of FINAL RULE 2021R-05F
You need to fine tune your sarcasm radar…
“a catchall term for unserialized, home-built firearms that Democratic leaders, law enforcement officials, and gun control groups say are turning up in the hands of criminals across the United States.”
The term ‘ghost gun’ is also applied to any gun that has had the serial number removed or defaced. This is over 90% of the so called ‘ghost guns’ recovered from criminals and crime scenes, stolen commercially manufactured guns in which there were attempts to remove or deface the serial number. Contrary to the anti-gun, criminals do not spread a lot of time making their own guns.
“The term ‘ghost gun’ is also applied to any gun that has had the serial number removed or defaced.”
Not so fast – A gun that had a serial number applied, and was then defaced-obliterated is an entirely different critter (legally-speaking) than a gun assembled from a kit that never had a serial number in the first place.
It’s flat wrong to conflate the two. One is physical proof a felony was committed, the other, not so much…
To F-Troop, fibbies, and cops, no serial number equals ghost gun. All three are inherently lazy (those cat videos won’t watch themselves) and probably have something better to do.
There are several letter agencies in the government that need to be disbanded and overhauled, the BATFE (ATF) needs to be disbanded along with the EPA and DOE, and the DOJ and FBI need a complete purge and overhaul. Also the NFA, GCA and all other unconstitutional “laws” and “regulations” need to be eliminated. The Constitution is the law of the land.
Well stated . AND you are correct.
What’s you’re beef with the DOE?
Other than their objectively and provably horrible policies?? How about the fact that the Federal Government is given no authority in the Constitution to regulate energy production, EXCEPT on Federal lands? Seems a fair couple of beefs to have with that agency.
and by the constitution … the only “federal lands” are washington d.c.
What’s you’re beef with the DOE?
Take your pick.
DOE: Dept of Energy, have you purchased a gallon of gas, filled a propane tank or paid an electric bill lately? Brought to you by the Dept of Energy..
OR
DOE: Dept of Education, have you been paying attention to the state of public schools in this country? Enthusiastically brought to you by the Dept of Education… Yeah, they BOTH need to go away.
Yup. What MAXX said.
Bingo, take your pick or both, I highly distrust both.
Geez, I have so little regard for the Dept. of Education, I didn’t even consider them!! Yes, both have equally horrible policies, neither has Constitution support for their jurisdiction, and both are staffed with “woke” idiots, and their “mission” is to support more woke idiots.
buck the doe
NO basis for their existence found in the US Constitution. Gummit poking their schnozz where it does not belong. This was a recent construct, and has no basis in law. It should not expst, just like BATF. NOWHERE are FedGov given or allowed any authority over A, T, or F. The areas of function assigned FedGov are few and specific.
“…the BATFE (ATF) needs to be disbanded along with the EPA and DOE,…”
You want to make legal the dumping of used engine oil into the streams and rivers that I enjoy fishing in?
With no EPA, who will legally stop crap like that?
Any local law enforcement agency can handle illegal dumping, only the EPA can come up with regulations that make cars use 50% more fuel as they used to and call that good for the environment.
Or declaring a puddle on your lawn as a “navigable” waterway subject to all EPA rules and regulations if within 4000 feet of a floodplain then declared everywhere a “floodplain” under the 2015 CWA. The EPA doesn’t stop anything, they make rules, but they can’t watch every lake, river and stream in the country, common sense stops most would be polluters and that stuff still happens in spite of those rules just like most mass shootings happen in “gun free zones” in spite of laws against criminals possessing guns, firing guns in public areas, shooting people and murder.
How often will SCOTUS take up gun cases? It was a 14 years between Heller and Bruen. It would be beneficial if the lower courts followed Bruen in making decisions. I think some will, but places like New York, California, and Chicongo will not change soon.
I hope that CA and NY will get fast-tracked back to SCOTUS. So blatantly defying them merits swift and punitive judgement.
“How often will SCOTUS take up gun cases?”
That depends entirely on us. Properly craft a case in such a way that makes it a no-brainer for St. Thomas to rally the votes for granting cert….
Cert has already been granted on several cases. For the time being, those cases were remanded down to the originating circuits, where they are working their way through that process. We’ll have to see what those courts do with the Bruen parameters. It should be straightforward, but a lot of them will be resistant. However, the cases already have cert, so it’s playing with fire to defy the Court the same way they did with Heller and MacDonald.
This isn’t much of an answer, but it IS an explanation. The court previously was 4/4 with a swing seat that kept his cards close. No one knew how Roberts would land on gun related issues. It takes 4 Justices agreeing to hear a case before it sits before the Supreme Court. Neither side wanted to risk an unfavorable (to their side) outcome from the unknown Roberts.
Now, the Supreme Court has shifted its balance. Justice Ginsberg who supported most (all) gun control has been replaced with Justice Barrett who is pretty consistently pro 2A. Now, there are more Conservative Justices, there is a vastly greater chance that 4 of them will want to hear gun cases. There are some right now that may make the next session.
I think I missed something here. After reading through the article multiple times, I’m still not seeing what the work around is. Someone has something called a jig. ok. So what exactly is the work around?
The “workaround” is that the wording is “receivers and jigs sold or possessed TOGETHER” so some dealers are selling just the 80% receivers while others are selling only the jigs (which used to come free with some kits). The trick is in “possessing” both items at the same time which unless you are actually caught in the act would be pretty hard to prove…
The work around is this: The jigs normally sold cost ~$100.00 or more when sold separately, and the prices on the 80% frames went up generally. Previously, when the 80% frame and jig were sold together the overall price was lower and within the financial means of the average person most times, and it did not break the rules prior to the rule change. But now wi8th the rule change if the jig is included then the 80% frame is a firearm which means paperwork and 4473 and an FFL. But with the new ATF rule the jig now being sold separately at a higher cost and a general increase in cost of the 80% lower its overall less cost effective even if the resulting firearm does not need that of a firearm purchase requirement for a 4473 and FFL transfer. The ‘work around’ 3D printed jig means a person can still build a cost effective gun using the 3D printed jig thus the same effect overall as purchasing an 80% kit with a jig prior to the rule change and still have a legal un-serialized firearm (for as non-prohibited person) with no 4473 and FFL transfer. Thus a work around to the ATF rule.
All that means is a more expensive firearm.
If you have to make the jig then when it’s made, you have possession of it. If you have to make it instead of buying it with something then ok. Your making it anyway. I hardly consider this any kind of ‘work around’. At best, all it does is shift the responsibility from the seller to the buyer.
@Prndll
How does it mean a more expensive firearm if you don’t need to buy an additional $100.00 jig?
“If you have to make it instead of buying it with something then ok. Your making it anyway.”
what does that even mean?
You are still making the completed gun with the 3D printed jig.
“At best, all it does is shift the responsibility from the seller to the buyer.”
???
It was the buyer responsibility before the rule change too. The only thing that changed in this respect with the rule change is the jig and 80% frame can not be sold together because if they are its considered a firearm that needs to be transferred and subject to back ground check, 4473, an FFL transfer. Under the new rules there is no need to buy a separate jig if one uses the 3D printed jig, so the person can order/procure an 80% lower alone and have it sent to their home (in most states) and no one will be able to prove they had a jig if they 3D print this one and finish the firearm thus no firearm transfer or 4473. Its a work around of the new ATF rule.
@.40 cal Booger
Your asking and then answering your own questions.
Now,
If you can successfully make the gun and NOT be able to prove that you printed this jig then all that does is prove that you did not need the jig. The proof is that you made the gun. Otherwise it’s not needed.
This whole thing is just plain stupid.
@Prndll
“Your asking and then answering your own questions.
Now,
If you can successfully make the gun and NOT be able to prove that you printed this jig then all that does is prove that you did not need the jig. The proof is that you made the gun. Otherwise it’s not needed.
This whole thing is just plain stupid.”
Huh?
I didn’t ask any questions, you did.
You don’t understand the purpose of the jig. Its not the proof you made a gun, the gun its self is the proof. You liken it to ‘proof’ when its not – you are creating your own definitions to satisfy your statements to justify them. You don’t need to do that. The jig is just a tool in the form of a guide helping make the correct cuts and holes in the right places.
Do you need it? If you have some skill and use knowledge of standard machinists tools and techniques you probably don’t need it. But the jig makes it quicker and easier especially for those not equipped with machine shop and machinists skills. And sure, people sometimes do the holes using paper templates.
If you had a ghost gunner CAD system set up, you would be doing the same thing but without a jig. I’ve got a ghost gunner 2 system now (for a couple of months), ordered a ghost gunner 3 system. I turn out completed lowers when I want one now. I don’t have access to a machine shop set up or the machinist skills to turn out a completed lower with those machinists based means.
Does this mean I didn’t need the ghost gunner CAD system to achieve my goals? That’s basically what you are claiming, because I turn out a lower with the ghost gunner CAD system that I did not need the ghost gunner CAD system to turn out a lower.
Your argument doesn’t make any sense to claim no tools are needed to produce an item that needs tools to produce the item. Its the logical fallacy circular logic argument.
@.40 cal Booger
I never said no tools were needed. Of course tools are need. You can’t 3D print something without a 3D printer.
I’m saying that ultimately this means printing two pieces instead of one. I don’t see anything here that can be considered a ‘work around’. If it were 25 pieces instead of 15 it would be the same thing. To make this out to be something it isn’t is where I take issue with this whole thing. That’s the same thing our government is doing. It’s equally crazy for the left to make a big deal out of it.
your missing the point.
the atf is trying to prevent homemade firearms “ghost guns.”
because a piece of metal is not a firearm … people can buy the piece of metal and machine their own lower receiver to build their own firearm without atf approval.
the jig just makes the process easier.
so to prevent home builds the atf arbitrarily called having the jig and metal together a firearm.
and buying them together requires background checks, paperwork, and permission from the atf.
so the “work around” is simply selling them separate.
also the “work around” is posting the template for the jig online so that anyone can make their own jig.
Maybe I have missed the point. I made my first comment on this thread stating that. But after going through all this discussion, I’m still left at the idea that I’ll be printing a little more than I used to and removing any liability from the retailer. I’m going to printing something anyway as part of this process so adding a couple more items to that seems easy enough and ultimately just makes sense anyway.
You can buy nuts and you can buy bolts. You will end up in the same place buying those nuts and bolts at the same time all packaged together. It might seem easier to get it all in the same package but in the end it’s all the same…six of one or half a dozen the other. You can see it as avoiding ATF BS or the end user doing more work (by printing more items).
I can tell you this much:
Right now I don’t own a 3D printer and likely wont but if I ever get one, I’d likely prefer it this way anyway. But then I would prefer a metal jig over plastic. To me this is about the technology advancing as a normal movement. But just like bump stocks and forced reset triggers, the ATF and the gun grabbers will do what they can to attack this so anyone actually doing it could be looked at.
Yeah, I’m also not getting the workaround logic. Purchased or printed, if you have a jig and a frame at the same time, it would seem you are in violation of the new rules. I just don’t see how the 3D printing affects that at all.
Can’t stop the signal. People have been building guns at home long before Polymer80 showed up. And will continue to do so. And criminals will acquire guns by any means as well, so that won’t stop either.
The signal is stopped all the time. Even if you didn’t notice technical glitches, ISP’s shutting people down, and mishaps like drunk drivers hitting telephone poles…there is still the thing that happened to Snowden. The signal most absolutely CAN BE stopped.
If the signal is building guns, then no.
It does not matter what the signal is. The whole world saw the signal stopped by Facebook and Twitter. Trump is still banned. Your still likely to get banned by these two if you claim that the 2020 election was stolen. That’s not even to mention that UPS is stopping the signal by destroying legally purchased items between two individuals.
I think you’re missing the point. ‘The Signal’ is knowledge. Knowledge of…whatever. Passing it on from person to person. Are they disrupting it? Sure. But people are getting it. Some a little more slower than others. Facebook and Twitter are just platforms. Granted…some of the most popular, but a lot of people are waking up to Big Tech’s censorship (and flat out collusion with the People’s Socialist Utopia Republic of the DNC).
And for a little context…see the clip from Serenity. Good movie, but even better series (Firefly).
I would like to think People are getting smarter over time. I just have a hard time shaking the thought that the Democrat left is about to send civilization into another era of dark-ages.
Your offering that definition for ‘the signal’, ok. I guess that works. I’ve heard that phrase quite a bit and you are the very first person suggest to me that it means that and not something more technical. I’ve been in this for a very long time and your the first.
“The tool, known as a jig….”
Kinda tells you all you need to know about these people.
Been called jig as long I have building bikes and guns (over 50 years) you want to build a part like a motorcycle frame from scratch you want it to be right. Nothing out of the ordinary and yes, a jig (aka a pattern) IS a tool.
It doesn’t say anything at all. People that work with wood and metal have been fabricating ‘jigs’ for thousands of years. Truthfully, the 3D printer itself is a jig.
Right. A jigs a jigs a jig. Vice presents it like it’s some wizardry or witchcraft.
As if the jig I used with my router last week to get a certain cut is a nefarious entity out to shoot up a school.
Sorry if I got Toolman Tim Taylor butthurt. Wasn’t my intention.
“Jig” – pretty sure that be racist talk.
Could always get little stamp kit, make your own serial numbers or make some kind of marks or symbols with a soldering iron. It just says serialized right? Does it specify by whom? Fl permits self-serializing if you are selling a “homebuilt” firearm.
If you really do have to serialize it for some reason, then you likely also have to follow the rules on how it is done.
https://www.80percentarms.com/blog/how-to-serialize-an-80-lower/
Your state/local jurisdiction may have other/additional requirements.
Never serialize your weapon. Buy another 80% lower, show you kid how to do it, move the parts from the old 80% lower to the new one. Don’t serialize. Don’t play their game, it only encourages them.
Is so then you need to find a new state/local.
Hawkeye links the Federal requirements below. I use an electro-etching setup to serialize any lowers I machine out of aluminum (no jigs, just a set of plans and digital read outs on my mill and lathe).
“Fl permits self-serializing if you are selling a “homebuilt” firearm.”
Don’t sell them. Gift them, instead… 🙂
Remember folks gluing a piece of paper on to a piece of fence post makes a gun now. How absurd.
Show me the evidence of 80% kits used in crime. So far all you get are scary words from drama queens with a Gun Control agenda. Perhaps it’s more like kit guns spoil their deranged dreams of Gun Confiscation in America and for them serialized guns would make it easier…Only in their dreams.
There have been a number of seizures of home-completed guns from people making them to sell (which is already illegal). If some guy gets raided who has 30 guns they’ve made and plan to sell, thats 30 “ghost guns used in crime” for reporting the numbers.
Or…just an enthusiastic hobbyist. I’m not selling anything. I may *trade* something to another. But only if I really want to.
Best get ready, 87000 IRS agents ain’t about nothing but war on the citizenry. It’s gonna hit the fan after the election. Commie Joe been steadily building justification to come after us. The commies know they stole the election and they won’t be able to get away with it forever. So setup fake 1/6, demonize the opposition. You seen any attacks on anyone by MAGA republicans? The only one killed in 1/6 was an unarmed woman. Commies got 200000 illegals with cellphones ready to replace us.
It’s gonna hit the fan after the election.
Yeah, especially when Congress cuts funding to the IRS back to pre-“anti-inflation?” bill levels. Yes, they can. They can also open drilling and restart pipeline construction, an “executive order” is not the end all be all document that Chiraq Obiden thinks it is. Congress can nullify an EO simply by changing the law, whilst the Courts can overturn one if there is ample reason to believe that the order is unconstitutional or in some way unlawful.
^^^ Why the rest of us with a grasp on reality can’t have nice things.
Just put a Chiraq Obiden 24 sign in your yard, works the same as lambs blood on the door sill for the Jews back in the day. Also suggest a blessed crucifix on the front door and a remote-controlled sprinkler filled with holy water on your front porch.
Vampire problem in your area?
87000 new bloodsuckers at the IRS will be a Vampire problem for everyone.
Cell phones are tracking devices too.
Have you ever wondered why grandma didnt get a free land line.
Of course they’ll target the working class. There aren’t enough rich people for that many agents. The middle class has been squeezed out. That leaves the working class to be taxed into oblivion just like was done in the middle ages.
Just another feel-good do-nothing law. Heck, I don’t even need a jig, I punch in a few keystrokes, and the computer does the rest. With a little patience and a good caliper, anyone can drill the holes on a drill press; no jig is needed. A simple sheet of paper with the measurements will be illegal next.
That’s what I’m talking about. Unneeded things are being touted as ‘work arounds’. The next thing ya know, ISP’s will advertise that they have a new tool for business called Microsoft Outlook.
This aint no work around.
Microsoft Teams is the new tool for businesses.
I’m confused about the latest rules on 80% lowers. Can TTAG make an article detailing this for us? I know there are lots of redefining of what a firearm is, what a manufacturer is, what a dealer is, etc. Most of those affect FFLs. How does the latest ruling affect the regular joe building them?
I wouldn’t get too wrapped up in all that. They couldn’t even tell you what a woman is. THAT says more to me than any of this stuff.
The progs don’t even know one when they see one (a woman/everything is an evill gumm).
I think that would be good. A friend of mine has parts, jigs, pieces, uppers, lowers, stuff in different safes, cans, cardboard boxes, shelves, ect
What’s legal, what is not, what is grey area. Maybe I can convince him to clean out stuff and organize/inventory?
Can’t stop the signal.
lol
You keep on believing that.
Every attempt by the government to ban firearms will fail. They will have some success every now and again but they will never be successful in banning Firearms no matter what laws they put into place and what enforcement mechanisms they attempt to attach to those laws, freedom will always find a way.
I agree.
But that isn’t the same thing as stopping the signal.
Freedom 555
Along the same vein as other comments above, industrious people and criminals will always find work-arounds.
Let’s be brutally honest: it is utterly, totally, and hopelessly impossible to come anywhere close to totally eliminating anything in an open and creative society with lots of resources.
All any private or public entity can do is try to increase the risk/cost of something and thereby indirectly reduce the prevalence of that something. If that something is extremely complex and expensive to produce and there is little necessity in that something, then private and public entities can probably reduce the prevalence of that something quite a bit. Of course the opposite is also true.
When it comes to firearms, they are simple and inexpensive to produce compared to many things. And their utility is rather significant for many people. Thus, people will find ways to build them themselves regardless of what any private or public entity does.
Yep. Look at the “war on drugs”. How’d that work out? I have no interest in these but “shall NOT be infringed” means something!
“It’s like Schrödinger’s gun,” said Mr. Snow.
I am sooo stealing that.
Yeah, I thought that was a pretty sharp quip, also.
He missed the opportunity to say, “The ATF continues doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.” Would have enjoyed that one, too.
As Chip once quipped – “Schrödinger’s gat”.
(A nice play on “Schrödinger’s cat”)…
😄
The Civilian Disarmament Industrial Complex claims that significantly reducing or eliminating private firearm ownership will significantly reduce violent crime and spree-killer body counts. That claim is silly for the following reasons:
One–sophisticated criminal organizations will always find ways to illegally distribute firearms which they purchased or manufactured illegally.
Two–there are countless methods which are inexpensive, simple, and readily available to quickly and easily threaten, harm, and/or murder innocent people. Even if government could somehow eliminate firearms, they will never be able to remove metal stock, heavy/fast objects, compressed gases, chemicals, poisons, fuels/accelerants plus igniters, electricity, and tools from society.
Note that a person could easily manufacture their own knife from inexpensive metal stock (commonly available at hardware stores, home improvement stores, and welding supply shops) with nothing more than a hacksaw, metal file, tape/cordage to fatten the handle, and a couple hours of time–all for a total cost of less than $35. That $35 includes the cost of the hacksaw and metal file and enough metal stock to make at least three knives.
A more industrious person could easily make a usable sword in similar fashion. While such a sword would probably not last long in a warfare situation, it would be more than adequate for successful armed robberies or to facilitate a gruesome mass casualty event.
Of course there are countless inexpensive and easy ways to employ empty plastic softdrink containers, gasoline, rags, matches, and chains to wreak havoc.
You get the idea. Eliminate firearms and nasty/evil people will simply use other items to readily and effectively threaten, harm, and/or murder innocent people.
nothing more than a hacksaw, metal file, tape/cordage to fatten the handle, and a couple hours of time
Gonna take way more than a couple of hours with a hacksaw and a file.
“Gonna take way more than a couple of hours with a hacksaw and a file.”
Its a small knife.
Oh, then not like my USMC Kabar or my Bowie? Still the materials he mentioned won’t make much of a knife of any size, won’t hold an edge for more than a minute without hardening and that’s a whole nuther level.
Watch a few episodes of “Forged in Fire” and you’ll get a good idea of blade making.
Madmaxx,
I am talking about a knife with a 4.5-inch handle and a 4.5-inch blade made from 1-inch wide by 1/8-inch thick flat steel stock.
Cutting a serviceable “straight back” blade profile takes less than 5 minutes. Cutting to length (handle end) takes less 2 minutes. Total time to produce the knife (before filing an edge and fattening the handle) is 10 minutes maximum.
Time to wrap tape and/or cordage around the handle to fatten it takes about 15 minutes maximum.
Time to file a fairly sharp edge with a large new (e.g. sharp) aggressive metal file is about 90 minutes tops, and quite likely much faster since an enterprising violent criminal does not need a super wonderful edge profile.
Thus, total time to produce a knife which is surprisingly sharp and more than adequate for a violent criminal to commit armed robbery or murder is thus under two hours.
Yes, such a knife will not hold an edge very well with repeated use. And since the violent criminal is not going to be using that knife to do anything other than threaten/harm a victim, its edge will be absolutely fine.
Don’t overthink this. I use metal files to resharpen yard tools such as old-school hedge trimmers (the giant scissor types), hatchets, axes, lopping shears, and the like all the time. Even when those implements have hardened steel and very blunt edges, it takes me less than 5 minutes to restore a VERY sharp edge.
A bottle of bleach and working kidneys gets you the components for a chemical weapon. (chlorine in the bleach, ammonia from urine = lung-burning ammonium chloride gas)
A quick stop at home depot for a few parts and cheap tools. Go next door to wallymart for some cheap 12ga. shells. Couple hours of work. Presto 3-4 slam fires for maybe $100.
So easy lil’d could do it. maybe?
lil’d couldn’t do it because he’d complain about it, make up some reason it should not exist, and then find a bogus study to back him up.
Don’t even need to make a knife for a crime. Criminals with knives generally walk into a department/hardware store and buy or shoplift a cheap kitchen/utility knife or steal/borrow one from someplace. Just as effective as a USMC Kabar or a Bowie for a crime. And they use them ~1,300 times daily on victims in the U.S. – swords for the criminal, no problem, walk into any decent hardware store and walk out with a machete. Blunt objects for a crime, no problem, just about anywhere from ball bats to bricks to rocks.
Guns are only used by 1 out of 12 criminals. The rest use knives and blunt objects and hand/feet for their violence and there are thousands of victims annually from those from outright assault, rape, domestic violence, threats, etc… and less than 1% are ever identified and caught. Heck, just in schools alone there are over 38,000 victims annually of criminal attacks student on student/staff with blunt objects and hand/feet and less then 1% are reported to police because the schools keep it quiet and want to handle it internally as a student mental health/behavioral issue.
Glad to see intelligent Americans outsmarting the dummies we have in Government, Keep resisting and fighting as there are far more of us than them and we will prevail and they will fail.
its generally not that hard
to outsmart the current version of nitwits
that are running things today
#dunningkrugereffect
“…in order to prevent misconstruction and abuse of its [treaty/commerce] powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added “
F$ck em. Read up on Bad Elk v US
Just like people will work around abortion bans…no surprises here…
Putting it in reasonably polite terms, regarding firearms, the ATF is involved with alcohol and tobacco too, the agency would be well advised to TAKE A LONG WALK ON A SHORT PIER.
Hopefully the law that requires all frames finished or not finished to have serial numbers and be papered before being sold will be tightened up more so that the Far Right Lunatics will not be able to circumvent the law and help criminals and psychopaths’ get easy access to deadly weapons.
Its obvious only the psycho’s, the sick paranoids of the Far Right, the Trupite insurrectionists, and the criminals want easy access to unpapered firearms. law abiding citizens do not fear owning legal weapons.
I can see the instruction for a frame precursor:
1) Do not download jig plans from http://www.foo.bar
2) Do not 3D print the jig plans
3) Do not securely attach the jig to the precursor
4) Do not drill 3/32″ holes at the A markings
…
I remember stories of British kit cars being taxed if they had an assembly manual. The workaround was to publish a disassembly manual, and the buyer would read it back to front.
People have been making firearms at home without government blessings since the first Chinaman stuffed some black powder into a bamboo segment, tossed in a handful of pebbles, and touched it off with a burning stick. The basic design really is that simple.
A decent set of diagrams, blueprints or specifications, a few tools and a slab of aluminum or steel and given time and effort, the average person can build a firearm from scratch.
Access to a machine shop, or 3D printer makes it a little quicker and easier, but the basic process is the same. The gun banners and assorted idiots try to make it sound difficult, it isn’t.
This ATF decision is absurd. The idea somehow that a homemade firearm is somehow magically more deadly than a store bought factory firearm is the kind of thing that only Albert or Dacian could believe.
Homemade guns are perfectly legal, but a guide to making them is a FELONY?!?! How does that make sense?!?!? It’s what? Easier and cheaper to buy all of the parts of a gun, machine out a receiver and assemble it than it is to just buy one from a store?!? It’s a different legality to manufacture your own guns to give to a prohibited person than it is to buy one for a prohibited person?!? It’s easier to make a gun than it is to scratch off a serial number?!?
If you answered “yes” to any of the previous questions and want to try to reply…. first paint your face white, throw a rainbow wig and red foam nose on. Because you are a whole fucking clown
3D printer ASAP.
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