Kenosha Protest Shootings
Defense attorney Corey Chirafisi questions witness Gaige Grosskreutz about the moment he was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse during Rittenhouse's trial in Kenosha Circuit Court, Monday, Nov. 8, 2021, in Kenosha, Wis. Rittenhouse, an aspiring police officer, shot two people to death and wounded a third during a night of anti-racism protests in Kenosha in 2020. (Mark Hertzberg/Pool Photo via AP)
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Vox offered the perspective that “America’s self-defense laws are incredibly permissive, making it difficult to convict someone in a violent situation who claims to fear for their life.” A New York Magazine article similarly asserted that there is an “anarchy latent in America’s … expansive self-defense rights,” and that America’s “increasingly permissive self-defense laws” have opened “up a vast zone of permissible killing.”

True, there is ample room for determined debate over the proper contours of U.S. self-defense and gun laws. In fact, the Rittenhouse case initiated calls to make it unlawful for a minor like Rittenhouse to openly carry a rifle except when hunting. But when it comes to the supposed comparative “looseness” of U.S. self-defense laws, what is being reported does not reflect reality.

On closer inspection, it turns out that U.S. self-defense law in critical ways is more restrictive than the laws found in England and Germany, two countries often described as having more “humane” and “civilized” criminal justice approaches than the U.S. 

— Eugene Volokh in Comparing U.S., English, and German Law

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79 COMMENTS

  1. Sadly, more misrepresentation and outright deception from the conservative commentators.

    “it turns out that U.S. self-defense law in critical ways is more restrictive than the laws found in England and Germany, two countries often described as having more “humane” and “civilized” criminal justice approaches than the U.S.“

    This article gives the impression that England and Germany’s “self-defense law” is more humane and civilized but in fact, the two links it gives do not concern self-defense law in these countries, but rather their punishment and prison system.

    “Germany’s humane prison system: Ellis Cose
    Focus on preparing prisoners to return to society could provide model for reforming our failed criminal justice system“

    “Two Cultures of Punishment
    Joshua Kleinfeld*
    Abstract. As American criminal punishment has become more severe and European more mild, the two systems of punishment have come to represent different cultural possibilities for the modern West. Implicit in American and European punishment are two visions of wrongdoing and wrongdoers, of the terms of the social contract, and of the foundations of rights. American punishment pictures serious offenders as morally deformed people rather than ordinary people who have committed crimes”

    If it wasn’t for lies and deception, the conservative commentators wouldn’t have anything to post.

    Pro tip, y’all should really check out the links you post before you go embarrassing yourselves.

    • Sorry, you don’t seem to have read exactly the same thing I read in the last paragraph.

      “two countries often described as having more “humane” and “civilized” criminal justice approaches than the U.S. ”

      Fact is, the author seems to be stating much the same as you state. At the same time, they seem to point out that if you commit an act of self defense, your life isn’t necessarily flushed down the toilet forever. The chances of being ‘rehabilitated’ are much better over there.

      So, self defense in most of Europe is ‘more bad’ than it is in the US, but being convicted of such a crime is ‘less bad’ for your life outcome.

      Or, we might say, “better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six”. True, in the US and in Europe, but maybe more true in Europe?

    • Miner49,

      “This article gives the impression that England and Germany’s “self-defense law” is more humane and civilized but in fact, the two links it gives do not concern self-defense law in these countries, but rather their punishment and prison system.”

      Maybe this will help you > https://www.rif.org/

      The article reads “two countries often described as having more “humane” and “civilized” criminal justice approaches than the U.S.” > the author plainly states that its “criminal justice approaches” ‘described’ not ‘self-defense law’ ‘described’

      Seriously, you need to learn to read and comprehend, and also learn what context means.

      The rest of what you wrote in your self-serving context, simply nonsense.

      • I’m sorry 40oz but the article seems intentionally deceptive regarding the false comparison they claim to make.

        The article’s goal seems to be comparing American self-defense law with European laws, but doesn’t cite a single European self-defense law.

        “U.S. self-defense law in critical ways is more restrictive than the laws found in England and Germany,”

        I often notice this tactic used in the conservative world, the commenters make a false comparison, and then cite sources to support their comparison that don’t actually have anything to do with the subject of the comparison.

        • I know you’re sorry you are wrong. Thanks for apologizing.

          I suggest learning how to read and comphend instead of using this confirmation bias thing you have going on.

        • An insult or an attack upon one’s honor is crime under Germany’s penal code (section 185). As such under sections 32-35 one can use force to defend one’s honor.

          That is far more liberal than many/most U.S. state laws, at least on paper. Culturally speaking, I think it would depend greatly on where you were in Europe (and who you are and who was injured) in determining if/how you would be prosecuted.

        • Never learned the “First Rule of Holes”, did ya, MinorIQ? Pro tip: the “First Rule of Holes” is, when you find yourself in one, stop digging. But you just HAD to push your Leftist/fascist agenda, didncha??

          You are, and remain, and WILL remain, too stupid to insult. Go join the circle jerk, and stop trying to prove how “smart” you are (hint: you aren’t). The author of the piece made a valid, but arguable, point. You chose to read YOUR interpretation into it, and fell flat on your face, as you usually do with your “brilliant” insights (tell us again how Article I, Section 8 authorizes gun control for people in general, INCLUDING militia members outside of their actual militia service – that was a laugh riot!).

          Accept reality, MinorIQ – you are trying to sell a bulls*** Leftist/fascist narrative to a bunch of people more aware than yourself, and we ain’t buyin’. Suck to be you, MinorIQ.

    • The articles claim is clear:

      “it turns out that U.S. self-defense law in critical ways is more restrictive than the laws found in England and Germany, “

      The article makes this claim, and then goes on to discuss the European criminal justice system in general and cites two articles about European punishment in prison, rather than addressing European self-defense laws as it seems to assert.

      And I absolutely agree, correction and rehabilitation in the European judicial system is much better, dare I say progressive, then that found in the United States.

      I think this is a key statement:

      “American punishment pictures serious offenders as morally deformed people rather than ordinary people who have committed crimes”

      You can see evidence of that right on this list, in the calls for summary execution of every single criminal that gets mentioned, the verification of ordinary people who have broken the law is astounding.

      • MinorIQ,

        Seriously?? THAT is your “argument”?? That the actual laws are more restrictive than ours, but the punishments are less, so they are really “more restrictive” than we are. F*** off with that nonsense, idiot. If I’m “guilty” of a crime, and my punishment is less than what would be imposed on an American in the same situation, that makes me better off than my American counterpart – which was the POINT that the author was trying to make.

        Plus, they didn’t even address the whole “the process IS the punishment” aspect of American self-defense “jurisprudence”. If you want to lie to support your idiot, Leftist/fascist agenda, feel free. Don’t be surprised when the general response at TTAG is, “Go pound salt in your @$$.”

        Just keep f***in’ that chicken, MinorIQ.

    • Prison reform should be a chain gang chipping rocks sunup till sundown.
      Make life so gawdamn miserable they’d think twice before turning down the job at McDonald’s and robbing it instead.

      • I left out the chipping rocks thing. How about making prison prison again? No radios, no television, no newspapers, no gym equipment. A library for anyone interested. Three hots and a cot plus personal hygiene products. Phone calls with your lawyer only. Make it a place that they don’t want to return to. Is this inhumane? Is this too simplistic?

        • Because such conditions make criminals worse people rather than rehabilitate them.

          Unless your idea of prison is “throw away the key” for all regardless of crime, then they will be released at some point. If their stay has done everything in its power to make them unemployable and unsociable, they will commit more crimes, whether because they have learned nothing or because they are desperate.

          Either lock up all criminals for life (or execute them), or try to rehabilitate them.

        • Felix,

          So, tell me, how’s that whole “rehabilitation” thing working out, anyway??

          Oh, not so well, I guess. https://thecrimereport.org/2021/07/30/us-recidivism-rates-stay-sky-high/

          Rehabilitation is one of those things that SOUNDS good, but doesn’t work in the real world – sorta like EVERY Leftist/fascist wet dream social policy.

          Find a program that can be proven to ACTUALLY rehabilitate repeat offenders, and I might take you seriously. Otherwise? STFU.

      • How about making the goal of prison correction, rehabilitation and preparation for the outside world, rather than the Abrahamic based punishment system.

        For you Christians, how about a little less Old Testament and a little more New Testament?

        “An eye for an eye leaves both men blind”

        • An eye for an eye doesn’t leave you blind, it leaves you with a reminder as to why you lost an eye. As far as what you said about prison isn’t that what is being done now? If you don’t want to take the classes or learn a trade the taxpayers can’t force you. So what then? It seems they learn to hone their skills from other criminals while having it relatively easy during their stay

        • “An eye for an eye leaves both men blind”

          Me thinks Gandhi stated that because he did not want his eyes gouged out. Dude was a hypocrite in the extreme.

          I used to be on the fence w/ the death penalty but am solidly for it now on humanitarian grounds. Long term confinement is cruel, should be unusual (but isn’t), and is a form of torture. It is worse than death. Many prisoners agree with me as they attempt to commit suicide while incarcerated.

          A huge step towards getting rid of the prison industrial complex would be to have fewer laws. Can we start with drug laws? Prior to 1914 there was no federal code against the possession and use of drugs. Cartels could not make the hand-over-fist money they do today and junkies would just slumped in a corner rather than eating up taxes dollars in jail/prison . . . And we still have junkies today – lots of them.

          I would add weapons and ordinance liberation to drugs but those on the left like you would probably defecate a brick if explosives were legal. Even though they were prior to 1934. The idea of total drug liberty causes those on the right here on ttag to have a ruptured embolism.

          I am not advocating for anarchy. We need laws just fewer of them.
          How about in the future a little less guilt based manipulation and a little more straight conversation?

        • GAWD, MinorIQ, can you PLEASE pull your head out of rectal defilade, stop spouting your Leftist agenda, and address the real world??? The US spends a disproportionate amount, compared to other countries, on “prison reform” and “rehabilitation” policies. For many people, such policies MIGHT work (but historically haven’t). For repeat offenders? AYFKMRN???

          SHOW ME a “rehabilitation” policy for REPEAT offenders (you know, the actual dangerous, repeat criminals) that has been adopted and achieved a proven track record of success (other than age – as ‘gang bangers’ age out of street life, they either tend to go into leadership (less likely to get arrested) or give up gang life)?

          Does your unicorn fart rainbows, too?

        • Sorry, MinorIQ, that phrase/quote doesn’t exist in my New Testament – perhaps it’s only in the Leftist/fascist version. Pro tip: Matthew 5:38-40 does NOT say that, you lying POS.

      • Chipping rock teaches them to work.
        ” How’d you get all them big muscles? If it was chipping rock I’ll hire yah, but if it was pumping iron in the prison yard your over qualified.”
        The cant get a job cause I’m a felon is bs. Theres jobs out there, but yah gotta want to work.

        • Anyone that wants to work can work. Good help is hard to find. Merely showing up and trying puts you ahead of the pack.

    • minor49iq…RE: “This article gives the impression that England and Germany’s “self-defense law” is more humane and civilized but in fact, the two links it gives do not concern self-defense law in these countries, but rather their punishment and prison system.”

      Sitting on your marxist perch high above the fray you see what you want to see. Your pompous international nitpicking just to call people liars flies out the window when it’s “you” or anyone anywhere VS a criminal.

      Never mind Gun Control nazi Germany and US Send Guns To WWII England…For the sake of discussion suddenly “you” are cornered by a criminal. That gives “you” 2 choices no matter your country…You can either sit there and be murdered or defend yourself.

      Should “you” ever claim to have “defended” yourself when you are not in bounds with the law and there’s blood chances are good you will find yourself in deep legal dodo. Behind closed doors the criminal justice system caters to criminals because crime greases the wheels of the criminal justice system. You eliminate a tube of their grease and they will scrutinize your actions looking for a way to use you as grease.

      Instead of being a pro international traveling finger pointing pantie waist busy body standing tall for pathetic Gun Control socialist countries pay attention to your surroundings…criminals are out there and closer to you than you think.

    • My commit awaits moderation…Free Speech and Gun Rights go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. Whatever the source is for repeat baseless moderation needs to be booted out the door.

    • Miner49er is full of shit. 14 links in that article refer to the laws in other countries — he pretends there are only two. Typical progtard.

    • Minor MINER49er It is your interpretation of the article that US Laws are more “humane” that Europe’s . That is NOT what is said at all. Reread the article. “Humane” has nothing to do with self defense.

      As to our prison system, I have personally worked as an Officer and as a supervisor. Our system in the US, works no worse or better than any other prison system. The fact is that crime is a problem and to be lenient on convicts teaches them nothing. There has to be consequences when a person commits a crime. I worked at one of the best run prisons in the country and the best run prison in NYS. We had a ZERO tolerance polity. We put up with no nonsense of any kind from and inmate toward officers or other inmates. IN 2011 the State closed Oneida Correctional Facility. Why? They claimed it was cost saving. Horse pucky! The state had rebuilt the facility kitchen finishing it in 2001 or 2002. They had just finished the asbestos abatement project in 2010. The fact is that the Officers and Sergeants ran the prison the way a prison is supposed to be run. The State really did not like this and closed it to “end the problem” as Oneida was an embarrassment to the other facilities especially the maximum security prisons. We had very few problems in Oneida as the staff did the job the state had claimed it wanted done, but refused to back the staff in each of the facilities. Oneida was run by the Officers and Sergeants since its opening. When the administration tired to chance things that were working just fine and found that their “changes” did not work, they tried to blame the staff. When that did not work, they closed the facility.

      Since Oneida closed, assaults on staff throughout the state have skyrocketed. Smuggling contraband including drugs has leaped off the charts. The NYS Dept of Correctional and Community Supervision is in chaos. The Commissioner is only an “acting Commissioner” and has been running the system for over 20 yrs as an acting. Why? The man who is the Acting Commissioner has never worked a day with inmates. The state know that the chances of his appointment being ratified by the State Senate would be slim and none.

    • Derp, the original source and the author of this story are NOT talking about prison or prison reform.
      Nice try of changing the subject but once again you fail.

  2. “America’s self-defense laws are incredibly permissive, making it difficult to convict someone in a violent situation who claims to fear for their life.”

    Two thoughts on this:

    1) I dare to say I don’t enjoy the same “incredibly permissive” leeway here in SoCal that someone in a more red state would. If anyone, anywhere truly has such leeway.

    2) I also dare to say I don’t enjoy the same “incredibly permissive” leeway most LEOs are afforded when they make a similar claim of fear for their lives.

    • You could defend yourself in California with a gun and be shown to be absolutely justified in your actions and they would hang you out to dry. Pretty sure the same would happen in New York. I would even hazard to guess that you would be treated worse than someone with a lengthy criminal record. The revolving door criminal justice system doesn’t work for self defense even if justified.

      • I read the article. They want you to be afraid of using armed self-defense. The Pitchfork murder case in California is a great example. Even the neighbor’s refused to help the children next door begging for help. As they were being attacked. Because that gun owner feared being prosecuted by the evil California justice system.

        Unlike in Texas. Where a third-party can legally come to the armed assistance of anyone in need. Joe Horn for example.

        • We do have, believe it or not, Good Samaritan protective law here in CA that pre-dates the Democrat takeover of our state. But even so, I wouldn’t be hasty to test it, considering our loopy D.A.s here.

        • I expect to see a TTAG story soon where a rural Texas firearm owner shoots a gas tank “hole punching” thief, or a catalytic converter thief.

          Anyone living more then a few minute drive from emergency response support looks at their personal transportation as a life or death possession.

          They didn’t string-up horse theives because of the value of one horse, they strung them up because the victim could have died without their transportation.
          Transportation=Life.

          Bet we see it before gas hits $8 a gallon.

        • Similar boat in NY we can legally use deadly force to protect a third party from deadly force but given that the prosecutor is not barred from charging you even if it was blatantly justified have fun going into poverty fighting the ride. My home county and a few others would probably be fine. Albany and many of the NYC overflow zones nope.

      • Haz,
        I’m pretty sure that Good Samaritan law is still on the books because it isn’t used that often. I’m also pretty sure some douchebag dem would be happy and successful in getting rid of that law. It might work in rural Kern county but I’d be concerned about Los Angeles.

        • I’ve made this statement before. I live in CA. According to our state law I can take my gun into the street to defend the life of another. I live in the very crowded bay area. I would not want to be in the street, gun in hand, when the first swarm of cops responded to the 911 call. It could get sporty.

          The man that did not aid the children being murdered by the pitch fork maniac, I remember all too well when that happened, did not do so out of fear from prosecution.

          He did it out of fear.

  3. Vox kind of ignores why people would want permissive self defense laws, didn’t they? “No Justice No Peace” Burn/Loot/Murder if morally correct (note I said if) is a vigilantism movement at best. If they aren’t morally just it’s flat out just a group of criminals. Pols have gone out of their way to ensure that people aren’t protected. If people see it you can’t hide it.

  4. “Germany’s storied self-defense law permits deadly force under a far broader array of circumstances than allowed in the U.S. In Germany, virtually all non-trivial, legally-protected interests can be defended with up to deadly force when necessary. Unlike in the U.S., then, Germany to this day allows for deadly force to protect “mere property,” such as a laptop or motorcycle.

    If tried in Germany, Rittenhouse would not have had to establish that he was reasonably fearful of death or serious bodily injury (questions occupying the balance of his trial). Rittenhouse instead could have simply argued that deadly force was necessary to prevent his attackers from assaulting and battering him.

    This would have been a far lighter burden for him to shoulder, considering that there was little dispute that a beating was in his future.”

    We need to demand Europe’s standard of self-defense, it seems to me… 🙂

  5. The USA still executes convicted criminals. That is why we are seen as harsher on criminals than other countries. Also will sentence criminals to life in prison. And they die there. Never to be released. Many western nations also consider that to be cruel.

    For example I believe Mexico has a maximum of 40 years for any crime committed. After that you are released back into society. So for example Stephen Berkowitz, “the 44 caliber killer”, in New York City in the 1970s could be walking the streets today. If United States followed Mexico’s lead.

    The “release all the criminals” crowd has been demanding an end of the death penalty. But they do not demand that police be disarmed. Because they kill far more people, the innocent and the guilty, than the electric chair or the gas chamber in this country.

    The bottom line is that Western European thinking does not allow the law-abiding citizens, to have the best weapon possible to defend themselves. And that is a firearm. Particularly a handgun. Which you are not allowed to keep in your own home.

    You must be a member of a “gun club”. And that is where your guns are stored. And that is what “gun rights” are outside of the USA.

    • Btw
      The “firearms tourism” business is big business around the world. People travel to the United States, Guam, the Philippines, and Cambodia, to fire weapons that they would never have access to, in their own societies. And in England there are firearms tourism businesses that allow the English to shoot guns they also would never be able to possess.

      • Chris T,

        Fly to Oahu, walk down the jetway from your plane to baggage claim, and tell me how many posters you see advertising rental ranges that allow you to shoot guns – particularly full-auto. I’ve spoken to Japanese and German tourists in the Oahu and Kona airports who made a big deal about how one of their highest priorities was to “go shoot guns”. Why they submit to their idiot, paternalistic governments is part of the reason we USED to be a free country, and they aren’t. We seem to be hell-bent on giving away that freedom, probably due to Leftist/fascist idiots like MinorIQ, dacian the stupid and rant7.

  6. Incredibly permissive my ass! In this country if you somehow become famous for having defended yourself a place or in a manner disapproved of by the left, being found not guilty means little. If you are found guilty by the media and Hollywood your life gets flushed. Hell, you don’t even have to be put on trial to loose any chance of a normal life. Look at what they did to Richard Jewel.

  7. Citations regarding self-defense law in England, Germany would have been instructive. Would enable the ability of the reader to better evaluate the the claims that self-defense in both countries is just as, or more, “permissive” than the US.

    • “Citations regarding self-defense law in England, Germany would have been instructive. Would enable the ability of the reader to better evaluate the the claims“

      Exactly my point, this is just another false equivalence narrative promotion piece that offers no real information about the comparison.

      Incompetent writing or Intentional deception, you decide.

  8. and that America’s “increasingly permissive self-defense laws” have opened “up a vast zone of permissible killing.”

    In other words, the old mass carnage and apocalypse ‘blood in the streets’ (or ‘rivers of blood’) excuse that gun control freaks have been pushing for decades – that thing that has not happened.

    People using firearms for self-defense are remarkably law abiding overall, they are also less likely to cause harm than any other ‘permissive’ thing in society like vehicles.

    There are about 2 million annual defensive gun uses in the U.S., less than 5% of those actually pull the trigger (sometimes warning and showing causes the bad guy to leave, especially in home break-in attempts – this is defensive gun use also) and when those do pull the trigger less than 2% of those bad guys shot actually die.

    There are over 2 million injured (not killed) in car accidents each year, 60% of those will later die as a result of or complications from the injuries received in the car accident. But the initial deaths, and those that die later, are put down to “car accident’ and excused permissively with light punishments (if any) and mostly ‘insurance’ handling and sometimes civil lawsuit but very rarely (in context with overall) criminal (e.g. DUI, vehicular homicide) punishments.

    There are about 450,000 deaths caused annually by use of tobacco products. A product that is known to contain one of the most lethal poisons known to man (nicotine), and a host of other ‘agents’ that are known to cause harm. yet, with permission of law this deadly ‘thing’ is sold to the public with it factually known that it will cause death or injury (on some level in the human body) or health/body adverse effect 100% of the time when used as intended even the first time.

    There were about 100,000 drug overdose suicides in the past 12 months in the U.S. but its put down to ‘mental health’ and excused permissively by that in that the mental health state caused it and not the person.

    Seems to me the “vast zone of permissible killing” happens in other sectors of ‘something’ and not with self-defense. Seems to me the carnage and apocalypse ‘blood in the streets’ (or ‘rivers of blood’) is being played out with vehicles and other forms (e.g. 100,000 drug overdose suicides annually, tobacco deaths and injury) of ‘permissive’ (or permissively excused or allowed) activity and not self-defense.

  9. Yes, they want to restrict your right to self defense, because it’s not their daughter who gets raped and murdered. they will change their tune when it happens to them. Until then, not so much.

  10. quote————–America’s “increasingly permissive self-defense laws” have opened “up a vast zone of permissible killing.”————quote

    Very true. Just one example of thousands. Several years ago a Texas sadistic Hill Jack saw two men robbing a house. He did call the police and the police told him stay put and not intervene because we are on the way. The Hill Jack took his shotgun and then executed both men and not a damn thing happened to him as he was not prosecuted which is par for the course in Texas which is perhaps one of the most sadistic and uncivilized states in the Union. Texas executes more people than any other state. And no, it does not make crime less in Texas.

    Most states prohibit executing people for stealing property but obviously not Texas. Most European countries outlaw such barbaric behavior as well. The Far Right of course which is as greedy, stingy and sadistically depraved as they come believes if you stole a $1.00 item you should be executed on the spot and they smile when they say it. In Texas back in the day they once hung a 6 year old boy who stole a loaf of bread because he was starving to death.

    With more and more states controlled by greedy, sadistic Republicans passing Constitutional carry there is going to be many more needless killings as well as when people do not know the law they will shoot first and ask questions later, it is the way of the Naked Ape Far Right.

    It is interesting to note that if you give the leader gorilla a pile of bananas he will sit on them and not share them with the other apes. The close behavior of the Naked Ape Far Right Republicans is too obvious not to miss.

    • Seriously, dacian the stupid, get your meds checked. You are spiraling into a level of pathetic partisan idiocy exceding even YOUR prior idiocy. Seek help.

      Or, just go join the circle jerk. MinorIQ, rant7, and the nameless, brainless troll are awaiting your presence.

      • Do the imaginary partners at your pretend law firm ever get out of sorts about how much time you spend posting drivel on TTAG?

  11. And none of them countries has a law against you not getting to keep your dead guy.
    Seems like that aughta be covered under the Fair Chase and Game Harvesting laws.
    Nope, no matter what country your in ,the cops always show up call in the meat wagon and haul your dead guy off.

    • You need to learn to drag them away faster. Kind of like I do with roadkill. Gotta get them before they are completely flattened out.

      • “Gotta get them before they are completely flattened out.”

        You can use the flat ones for frisbees. Johnathan Winters used to call them “sail cats”.

  12. Several commenters failed to read the linked article. England and Germany clear, according to the linked article, make self-defense with deadly force an easier claim than the US, including the reddest states; for instance, allowing deadly force in defense of property, or basing the claim of self-defense on facts as perceived by the defender, not the mythical “objective and reasonable” person.

    What the linked article ignores, and what these commenters conflate, is that while England and Germany are more legally permissive in allowing deadly self-defense, their denial of the tools of self-defense negates almost all practical claims of self-defense. They are two separate matters. Do not cross the streams.

    • This is true. Being able to claim self-defense and being able to effectively exercise it are two very different things.

      Also, being able to make the claim has very little bearing on the practical matter of whether the claim — however legitimate — survives contact with the prevaricating snakes that inhabit courtrooms across the world.

    • i am left confused. is there an easier path to claiming self defense in england than here? what is preventing me from claiming self defense here?
      i was under the impression that home/ property/ life defenders in england are rteated more harshly than the offenders and penalized for doing so.

      • “what is preventing me from claiming self defense here?”

        Solid question. The reality is that (i) different states have different laws regarding when/how you may act in self-defense, (ii) states that have even semi-rational self-defense laws still have DAs (thank you, George Soros, you Nazi-collaborating POS) that will attempt to prosecute you, and (iii) “the process IS the punishment”. Even if you are acquitted of charges against you, you will have a permanent arrest record, will have gone through YEARS of a hellish, and hellishly EXPENSIVE, court proceeding, and probably lost your job in the process.

        You CAN defend yourself – but that necessarily means you will have to defend yourself AGAIN, in court, and by the time you are done, you may question the old saying “better to be judged by twelve than carried by six”. Everyone who carries, or maintains a firearm for self-defense, should be aware of the reality that IF you are in a situation where you feel justified/compelled to use it, your problems only START when the perp is lying there exsanguinating.

    • Wrong!!!!!!! Read Minor49’ers post above showing how the Far Right completely told the big lie about Germany and Britain’s self defense laws. You are not allowed to shoot someone in self-defense and especially over property rights. That Far Right Post link was not just Far Right propaganda it was a complete bold face lie.

  13. The gun death rate in the U.S. is much higher than in most other nations, particularly developed nations.

    In 2020, the most recent year for which complete data is available, 45,222 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC.

    On average 1,300 children are killed each year by unattended guns in the home.

    Nearly eight-in-ten (79%) U.S. murders in 2020 – 19,384 out of 24,576 – involved a firearm. That marked the highest percentage since at least 1968, the earliest year for which the CDC has online records.

    While 2020 saw the highest total number of gun deaths in the U.S. Clearly the U.S. gun problem is completely and totally out of control.

    The 45,222 total gun deaths in 2020 were by far the most on record, representing a 14% increase from the year before, a 25% increase from five years earlier and a 43% increase from a decade prior.

    Gun murders, in particular, have climbed sharply in recent years. The 19,384 gun murders that took place in 2020 were the most since at least 1968, exceeding the previous peak of 18,253 recorded by the CDC in 1993. The 2020 total represented a 34% increase from the year before, a 49% increase over five years and a 75% increase over 10 years.

    AGAIN IRREFUTABLE PROOF THE U.S. GUN PROBLEM IS OUT OF CONTROL AND CONTINUES TO CLIMB .

    Several years ago gangs were deliberately targeting and robbing and killing foreign tourists in the U.S. which resulted in a marked decrease in Tourists coming to the U.S. Many Western Europeans have stated they would never even consider immigrating to the U.S. because of its totally out of control gun problem here.

    One Japanese foreign exchange student out trick or treating was gunned down by a paranoid home owner several hears ago.. Japanese people were horrified and wondered “how can the American people live like this?” The answer is, they do not, they often die in a pool of blood from some maniac with a gun who never should have been permitted to buy one.

    And studies show that when guns are easily available the “amount of suicides” go up because the gun makes it too easy and convenient to carry out the ghastly deed. And before some Right Wing Moron starts shooting off his ignorant mouth by pointing out the Japanese have a higher suicide rate the studies have proven that they would have a much higher rate if handguns were easily available.

    • What was that noise??? Oh, it was just dacian the stupid expelling gas. Nothing any sentient being needs to pay attention to.

      Just toddle off to the circle jerk, dacian. We can do without your insane, fact-free rants.

    • The japanese student you are referring to died back in 1989.

      Since you mentioned the suicide argument you outed yourself as being against guns – in any form. Your “I believe in the 2A but” refrains ring hollow as when it comes to guns and suicide darn near any gun will do. Those break open shotguns lefties are so fond of do just as well as any AR when it comes to suicide.

      You know darn well that neither you, or any group of people, can get rid of the hundreds of millions of guns already in the U.S. You have no desire to limit the weaponry of government entities in the U.S. You are all about control not safety and we see right through you.

      • To DDT

        quote————-You know darn well that neither you, or any group of people, can get rid of the hundreds of millions of guns already in the U.S. —————quote

        I never said that you did. What I have said is that letting criminals and maniacs have free and unfettered access to guns is insane and no other civilized nation tolerates such absolute madness.

        Wrong again. History has proven the U.S. could get rid of most of its firearms if the government passed draconian laws. Its already been done by other nations. And it usually took very little time to accomplish it. And to be clear I never recommended this.

        • What you wrote total neglects the GCA of 1968 which established the idea of a “prohibited person”. When convicted felons “get” guns in the U.S. they do so illegally. So their access is “fettered”.

          There has never been a time in human history where a nation has had as many firearms as exist now in the US. None of the examples you could cite would even come close to the raw number of guns currently in the US. And if you look closely at the examples that are often given (Australia usually tops the list), those governments appeared to get rid of all the guns in their borders but often only scratched the surface.

          You state that you do not recommend “daconian laws” but I believe you have or least have mentioned it a few times. If you are not for it why bring it up? I believe you really are about control as you know any gun will do when it comes to suicides and you are not for any of our government bodies scaling back on their weaponry.

        • dacian, the dunderhead, Psst! Criminals don’t have “unfettered access to firearms”. They can only get them on the black market. No FFL dealer will sell to them if they value their FFL.

          You can try to pass your “draconian laws” if you want but you will find them to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL! You see we still have the 2nd Amendment and you control freaks will never get that repealed.

    • dacian, the Dunderhead, Our crime rate is also higher as well as our incarceration rate. So what?

      As to your ‘suicide” point, if a person is bound and determined to commit suicide, not having a gun will not deter them. Trust me!

      In your “gun free world” only the criminals would have guns. Sorry but that mouth wash just doesn’t cut it.

  14. In the UK the test of law is a ‘proportional’ response to perceived risk as it is in Germany and the ownership of firearms for self defecnce is PROHIBITED. So if the bad guy threatened to punch your lights out you would not be justified in using DELIBERATE LETHAL FORCE. If hiowever you defended yourself reasonably punch for punch you would still be investigated and tested for unreasonable force. Each case is tried on it’s merits. But if you did l keep a firearm purely for self defence you WOULD face a murder charge. That doers not mean a findiing of guilt.

    • Cool story bro. 👍

      ICYDK, we took actions in the late 18th century so wouldn’t have to hear it.

      Glad to get you up to speed here. 🤣

    • “. . . ownership of firearms for self defence is PROHIBITED.”

      Exactly the point, Royal Albert, you pathetic subject. Nice of you to notice.

      Go ask the Queen to protect you from the next knife-armed thug you run into. Glad we kicked your asses back in 1776. We don’t pay much attention to what “subjects” tell us to do since then – sorry, not sorry.

      • To the Demented Lamp that went out in his head

        quote————-Glad we kicked your asses back in 1776.———quote

        Anyone who attended college would know that Colonial America did not kick the British ass at all. Rather it was French money, millions of it, and their professionally trained army and navy that won the Revolutionary War.. Your goats need tending right now so go out and feed and water them on the side of your cabin in the Appalachian Mountains.

        • Notice the prejudice against people different from himself. I’ve come to expect this from the Party of Love and Unity. These are the same people always lecturing everyone else about what’s right and wrong.

        • dacian, the Dunderhead, Anyone with a high school diploma would know that your version of history is dead wrong. It was the Continental Army with the assistance of a contingent of French Army and Navy kicked out the Brits. French help was greatly appreciated and we honor it today, But if the Colonies had not revolted against British tyranny, we would be subjects rather than citizens we are today.

          Anytime you want to leave the USA, I am sure we can raise the money for your ticket on one condition. That condition is that you never return.

      • I saw a video a few weeks ago about the “spice zombies” in Manchester and several other UK cities.
        Moms were complaining to authorities about how their little children were finding all sorts of edges weapons and bludgeoning tools while visiting the public parks.
        Authorities swept a few city parks and found hundreds of weapons.

        All Hail……. scratch that, Al Hall needs to clean his own backyard before considering making comments about ours.

        Even then, a subject views the 2nd A from a flawed position. 🤪

    • Albert Hall, For your edification, we have the same “proportional force” statues here in the US. So you can’t use deadly physical force if someone punches your lights out. We here in the US don’t give a rat’s behind about how you Europeans allow “self defense”. We also don’t care how your run your prisons.

      Frankly, it is time for your Europeans to bud out of our affairs and try straightening out your own problems. Like terrorism and your own out of control crime in certain areas where the police don’t go?

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