Teacher Training Shootings
Cindy Bullock, Timpanogos Academy secretary, participates in shooting drills at the Utah County Sheriff's Office shooting range during the teacher's academy training, in Spanish Fork Canyon, Utah. About 30 teachers in Utah are spending their summer learning how to stuff wounds and shoot guns as part of a training held by police to prepare educators for an active shooter scenario in their schools. (AP Photo/ Rick Bowmer)
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…Republican legislators in Ohio who are promoting proposed House Bill 99, which would allow schools to arm teachers, deem it necessary to “solve” the school shooting crisis by filling schools with more guns. HB 99 passed the Ohio House last month and is pending in the state Senate.

As a teacher in Northeast Ohio high schools for over 20 years, a special kind of horror fills me when I hear about bills like HB 99. Here are a few of the reasons why more guns in schools is no solution.

For us teachers, many experiences in our lives are teachable moments. There are lessons to be had in all that happens to us as individuals and as a society. The lessons we choose to learn will determine our actions. Bringing guns into our schools conveys one monumental lesson: that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence. As students go out into the world, will they take that lesson with them? Who else should carry guns? Doctors? Engineers? Nursing home employees? Is the effective solution to violence just more potential for violence?

— Ric Doringo in Arming teachers won’t make schools safer

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129 COMMENTS

    • He never really indicated why arming teachers won’t make schools safer. He clearly needs a bubble bath and scented candles.

        • I’m not sure he’s confronted the truth about violence, yet. He may well have experienced violence, but not confronted the nature of it. It’s pretty clear he doesn’t understand human nature. Even disregarding his stand on guns, he shouldn’t be a teacher.

    • Same difference in their world. Kind of like how they think that if Roe v. Wade is overturned it will ban abortion nationwide when it would actually only allow the states to make their own laws. The hyperbole is inate in these people.

      • The only problem with that argument is that once again that’s a government making a decision for me personally keep the government out my business just like with guns keep the government out of my business… That’s not hyperbole that’s fact..

        • Well if there’s no public interest in preventing infanticide then there’s no public interest in preventing your murder either, so let’s just legalize homicide. Would have saved the taxpayers the expense of that Rittenhouse trial…

        • Well, I have a right to be armed to protect myself, I also rely on that firearm to protect my family. When a child in the womb can exercise that same right for themself, I will stop looking after them.

    • BOOM!!!!!

      When the dirtbags bring THEIR guns, illegally, into the schools, I suppose this smarmy sock puppet would rather everyone hunker down in a corner and wait their turn for the creep’s next bullet. READ what is alledged to have happened at Sandy Hook. Now go read what happened at West Freeway Baptist Church in Texas.

  1. Well, Doringo. All of the FEMALE worker bees in a colony of honey bees have stingers and will use them as a last resort to protect the hive. Hell, even the queen bee has a stinger and isn’t afraid to use it if it comes down to that. No one is out there trying to disarm bees despite the inherent risks that come with interacting with them. Why is that? Perhaps because without stingers, bee colonies would fall to other more powerful insects capable of using violence to subjugate and eradicate them. Apply this logic to virtually all living beings. Don’t worry, I’ll wait.

  2. “Who else should carry guns? Doctors? Engineers? Nursing home employees? ” I got news for you Karen. They already do!

    • That was certainly my thought. There is an MD who writes for various gun magazines and he assures his readers that he ALWAYS goes armed. The ER has become a shooting gallery in some states with gang bangers going there to finish off the rival gang banger they only wounded. Yeah, some ERs have an unarmed rent-a-cop outside but mostly what they are doing is looking for people parking in the ambulance spot.

  3. “..that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence…”

    Yes, that’s exactly how the real world works Mr. teacher. MAD, mutually assured destruction, between the nation States that have Nuclear weapons is one example. A first strike against the US will result with a, hopefully, overwhelming response.

    also see ‘Don’t bring a skateboard to a gun fight’. Same principle.
    also …Obama, if the GOP brings a knife, we bring a gun…

  4. I’m an engineer and I’ve been carrying a gun for many years.

    No you don’t always have to meet violence with greater violence. The mentality of the type of person that necessitates you to carry a gun, usually has the same mentality as a school bully. They’re cowards. They won’t pick on you if they think they’re going to get hurt.

    • Yep. I’m in healthcare and my first thought when reading this line

      “Doctors? Engineers? Nursing home employees?”

      Was “Heh, no comment.” Lets just say I know plenty of people in both acute care and long term care that are very near a gun while at work.

      • Anyone else remember an “incident” in an hospital some time back, where a nutjob patient (psych ward, if memory serves) brought not only his own gun, but a will to kill into the clincic. After he shot one of the docs, dead if I recall rightlyy ANOTHER doc brought out his own little peacemaker. As the perp was preparing to kill another innocent, the armed doc presented his own and fired, taking the perp down. There was a hew and cry for that doc to be fired and charged wiht having his gun where “he should not have”. He sootd his gound, dclaring tht EVERYONE in that section woud have been dead, including himself, so go ahead and fire me.

        They did not. Perp got dealt with under the law.

        It win’t the gun itself. Its who has it and wiht what intent. As always a software issue, never a hardware issue.

        • If memory serves, the Doc had a Seecamp.

          They didn’t fire him, but I wonder if the Doc is still carrying at that hospital today, and if he gets a special search when he shows up for work…

      • How many nurses have been assaulted, raped, murdered or kidnapped over the years while walking out to their car after a shift that ends after dark. I’ll wage the number is in the high hundreds if not the thousands. I know quite a few are packing nowdays. And you want to disarm them? Good luck.

    • Came for the same statement, Engineer, been carrying all day every day for over 20 years. In fact, of all professions, teachers are probably the last to be carrying.
      Wife is a nurse, friends with plenty of doctors who carry.
      That crap about doctors being against it is bogus, the “shall do no harm” bull is what anti gun people say.
      Know whats easier than doing surgery trying to save a little kids life? Popping the bad guy first, dead men don’t get surgery and the little kids live.

      Anyone who says taking one life isn’t worth it to save hundreds can’t do math.

  5. I look it as an imperfect solution in an imperfect world.

    I have no illusion that my carrying daily will somehow put an end to the violence perpetrated by drug dealers, gang bangers, and the other criminals responsible for the overwhelming majority of “gun violence” (man, I hate that term) in the country. But I still carry, because I know I will have at least have a chance to defend myself and stop a threat from one of the aforementioned bad actors if necessary.

    An armed staff member is not really so different. The bigger issues of culture and the notorious fame some of these kids (like the Parkland shooter) seek out are far beyond their control. But they could be the difference between life and death if it happens at their school.

  6. “.. .that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence…”

    The only thing that stops, repels, or deters, in progress imminent deadly force threat is the threat or use of countering defensive deadly force.

    No one has ever stopped their selves or another or anyone from being injured or killed by an in progress imminent deadly force threat by dialing 911 or hoping the government does not let violent criminals roam as they please or removing the means of defense. if it were that simple we would not have wars, violent criminals roaming free, or even could have stopped 911 from happening.

      • This eedjit would rather we all be “heelers”, doin’ jes’ whut massah say…….

        good doggie come here and sit.
        Nope. Free men do NOT think like that. This guy must be captive to many monsters in his shed, er, squeeze me, I meant head.

    • “… that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence. As students go out into the world, will they take that lesson with them?”

      Spoken like a person who has never encountered the violent threat from violent criminal monsters roaming around in society.

      Children already know monsters exist, what they need to know is how to defeat them. But in context with the rest of the sentiment from this person and this…And what u want them to do is roll over and not resist and suffer injury or death at the hands of monsters.

      If I had my way every kid in school in high school would get defensive gun use training.

      • If we get the ruling we want in the SCotUS ‘NY Pistol’ case we want, that will be powerful ammunition to demand gun handling safety in high schools, alongside driver’s ed.

        If the Leftist Scum can force sex ed to be taught in school, there’s zero reason the same can’t happen for actual ‘gun safety’, not the pretend variety that moron is arguing for.

        The bottom line is, you take active measures protect what you love, from possible harm.

        I’ve always wanted to ask those kind of people if they’re willing to practice what they preach about passivizem, by removing the door locks on their own homes…

      • Fairy tales were originally meant to teach that very lesson: there are monsters in the world — but they can be faced!

  7. The last time I looked, American doctors, teachers, engineers, and nursing home employees are Americans too. All of which fall under the same constitutional authority as everyone else. Your chosen profession has no bearing on what is and is not in the constitution. To see it otherwise not only makes no sense but is arguing from a stance of complete ignorance. It’s like saying Trump is male because he is white or Obama is black because he is male.

    It is interesting though that aside from the relatively few things done by some, nearly all firearm advancement is done through engineering and quite often by engineers. Some with and some without a degree.

    With that said…
    There are teachers I do NOT want anywhere near children at all. Wether armed or not. The single biggest problem with all the aforementioned professions is that they are controlled and dominated by a liberal establishment. As long as we have the teachers unions running the show, we will have lunatics teaching and an uphill battle for teachers with guns. Most of the ridiculousness we see out there (like AOC) is a part of what our screwed up education system has produced.

  8. The lesson is that bad guys who intend immediate harm will be dealt instantly and with tremendous force because children are important to us.

    They aren’t bullying people, stealing their lunch money, etc. It should be easy to distinguish between a bad guy and a good guy.

    • Schools – the first responder on every scene is going to be a teacher, principle, counselor, or the janitor. So, teacher is standing there, looking at one or two dead kids on the floor, and progressives DO NOT WANT the teacher to put an end to the threat? Teacher has to become the third victim, while the perp remains free to kill another dozen?

      Yes, those additional bodies plays into the progressive narrative very nicely.

  9. There is no law in Pennsylvania that prevents doctors, engineers, or nursing home employees from carrying guns in their places of work. Employers may have a policy, but there is no law.

    The Federal GFSZ law prevent unlicensed/umpermitted people from carrying a gun in school, though it has exceptions if you have a license/permit to carry from the state in which the school is located.

    There is a section of PA law that antis say prevents carrying in schools, and that we say does not because it contains the clause “or for other lawful purposes” and self defense is clearly an other lawful purpose. There have been, last I heard, 3 test cases adjudicated in local court (I forget the court levels now). So there are 3 counties in PA where it is clearly legal for a person with an LTCF to carry a gun in a school. The government will not appeal it because if won at the next court level it would make it clearly legal state wide.

    If anyone wants to carry in a school in Pennsylvania and is willing to risk being the potential test case for their county contact Attorney Phil Kline in Quakertown, or Attorney Josh Prince (Prince Law has offices in several areas). Get them on board first so you are prepared if you get discovered.

    • Schools already allow police to enter their campus with their firearms. Many schools hire “school resource officers” – which, of course, is a euphemism for armed guards. I see no difference between a cop and a teacher carrying a weapon. There are individuals in either profession that I would readily trust. There are individuals in either profession who I wouldn’t trust to care for livestock, much less children. All we can do, is hope to weed out the bad actors from policing, as well as from teaching.

      • quote ” I see no difference between a cop and a teacher carrying a weapon.”

        I’d far rather trust the teachers. For one, few have a real chip on their shoulders nor a power=trip mindset. Most important, the teachers are ALREADY THERE, and have in most cases hearts toward their students. Remember Mr. Feiss, Aaron, I believe is his first name? He was a teacher at the high school the clown shot up in Broward COunty Florida. He was NOT the coward of Broward. He literally covered two of his students, taking their bulets, they lived, he did not. Teachars often have that kind of heart.
        And this eedjit spewing his insanity would rhather only cops carry guns at schools? Read about how “well” the coppers performed at Douglas High School in Broward.

  10. I experienced my very own teachable moment some years ago. My conclusion was somewhat different than hers. Yes, the five men that laid the ambush and funneled my girlfriend and I into it, walked away without having been shot. I like to think they learned that it can be dangerous to attack strangers, but likely they just became more careful in their victim selection.

    • I have a way you can earn a quick 20 in cash, ‘alice’… 😉

  11. What type of fantasy world is this teacher living in.I’m quite sure the latest school where a shooting took place there was a teacher or administrator that wished they had a firearm to protect those kids.Maybe the young man who died trying to stop the shooter would have lived.

    • They want to see more shooters treated like that Cruz kid. Let him wander the halls, expend all their ammo, while cops huddle outside the school. When the shooting stops, they can enter all peaceable-like, and apprehend the last kid standing. Those high casualty numbers help to advance the narrative.

  12. It strikes me that this opinion comes from a person who already considers guns “bad”. Guns by themselves are neither good or bad – it is the behavior of the people that wield them that should be and hasn’t been the focus. Allowing teachers who want to arm themselves with the intent to protect themselves and their students is an honorable and sensible choice given what has been happening with school shootings. 99.9% of the time, the fact the teacher is armed is invisible to the students. What, this person thinks that by allowing teachers to be armed that they’re going to hunt students or something ridiculous? Wise up and realize this IS a viable and probably the least impactful change on the day-to-day life of a student…until that 0.01% time it is needed the most.

  13. You’d think that a hyper-connected world with endless 24/7 news cycles would have caused bubbles of ignorance to burst years ago but here we are with sentient, conscious human beings completely clueless as to what other sentient, conscious humans are and have been doing and town and state governments enacting policies that demonstrably fail and have even been discontinued in other towns and states as if they’re the first to have the idea.

    I see this everyday in my work. I used to figure well, maybe their thoughts are occupied with their own interests and hobbies but more often than not these people have no interests or hobbies. As if when not at work they sit quietly and wait for their next shift. Like a refrigerator light going dark when not in use.

    Empty shells and dead souls only living to consume products and react to stimuli fed to them by whatever media outlet they’ve aligned with.

  14. I believe in the 2A, but I do not think everyone should carry a weapon/gun or a knife for that matter.
    You have guns & gun friends, you know the people I am talking about, you have seen them goof up or goof around. Then there are people who will never use a gun, no need to make them carry one, if they can not take a life, even to save their own.
    So I think police or trained gunmen in schools is good, but a teacher should not be made to carrier a gun. It is not an easy answer

    • Who’s talking about making a teacher carry a gun?
      I want to stop the current practice of disarming teachers and other school staff who already carry a gun everywhere else but at work.

      In my state, a state issued license confers an exemption to the federal “gun-free school zone” law. My lovely bride is licensed, but prohibited by her employer (a public school district) from carrying at her workplace. I am also licensed, so I carry lawfully when I visit her there, but she cannot. It’s foolish nonsense.

    • “I believe in the 2A, but…”

      Let me stop you there. Nobody cares what comes after that.

      Also, who has ever advocated for *forcing* anyone to bear arms, teachers or otherwise. That is nothing more than a leftwing strawman.

  15. I’m a high school teacher, over two decades of experience. I live in a place called reality. There are multiple measures that can be taken to prevent school shootings that HAVE stopped many before they started. However, after a shooting, our hindsight shows how many of those measures failed or were ignored or downplayed before the bullets flew. Once you get to that point, you have two choices. Engage and stop the shooter or call people who can and wait. Time is of the essence. Logic would dictate stopping them sooner is better. Given that, who’s job is that? If I agree it’s mine (we are all first responders mindset), I would like to be best equipped to do so, but that might make some uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable that I can carry to protect myself or others practically EVERYWHERE except the one place that is populated by hundreds of young people we have agreed to care for acting in loco parentis. Further, juvenile or not, those identified as violent or potentially violent should be identified as such to those who care for them. We know our students pertinent medical data and learning issues. We should know Billy killed the class pet in 6th grade, threatened a student with scissors last year, and has been in and out of counseling for aggressive and threatening behavior.

    • And when you discover Billy fantasizing about killing people, you escort him out of the building, watch him like a hawk, and get him counseling.

  16. Bringing guns into our schools conveys one monumental lesson: that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence.

    And the problem with that is … ???

    (Hint: that is an excellent and incredibly worthwhile lesson.)

    As students go out into the world, will they take that lesson with them?

    I sure hope so!

    Who else should carry guns?

    Yes. Next question?

  17. This is why you should remove your kids from public schools.
    Instead of being taught lessons of life ,their being brainwashed by Karen’s like this.

    • Private school / church school. Principle, teachers, and students all share an interest in hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife, and everything else you find in the great outdoors.

      It’s somewhat uncommon, but not surprising, to walk into class, and actually find a firearm being handled and discussed.

      There has never been a school shooting there. No graduates have ever become murderers in later life. In fact, there have been almost zero scandals of any sort among the grads. I wish I could say there were zero, but that would be dishonest – BUT, no murders.

      • Easier said than done. It’s extremely expensive. That’s why the dems fight tooth and nail over giving people tax credits, etc. to send their kids to a non-government school. Once that’s available, the game is up.

      • Paul,

        As commenter Dude mentioned, private school is expensive.

        Perhaps more important: transportation to/from private school every day can be the real deal killer.

        In my case private school would mean two hours of ferrying a child to/from school every day. I cannot spend two hours every day driving a child to/from school. And that does not even consider the actual mileage expense on top of the private tuition expense.

    • “There are lessons to be had in all that happens to us as individuals and as a society. The lessons we choose to learn will determine our actions.”
      Ric Doringo, like others, has stooped to math(more guns=more violence) while blaming an inanimate object for crimes. The math does not equate. The lessons Doringo has learned will only lead to further destruction and infringes on the right all have to self preservation.
      The word “choose” is the difference, Doringo chooses to believe false narratives.
      Teachers are not necessarily good students!

  18. “Bringing guns into our schools conveys one monumental lesson: that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence.”

    Yes. This is literally how you survive violence.

  19. The only people that should carry guns are those that want to. A firearm is a big responsibility and should not be taken lightly. Everyone is free NOT to carry, so no law requires you to do so.
    Qwiturbitchen.

    • We can agree on that! Teachers shouldn’t be required, en masse, to be qualified or to carry firearms in school. It should all be voluntary. I expect that typically, schools might have 10% of their staff armed. Might only be 5%, could be 30% – all we need are some people on scene who can respond immediately. If there is only one armed teacher in the building, he/she can get to the trouble infinitely faster than the gaggle of cops clustered in the donut shop across town.

  20. Bizzaro code of the Far Right, “An Armed society is a polite society” sarcasm.

    And example of how any incident can get out of control very quickly when people are always armed. Below the assailant was a Far Right White Nut case.

    Texas Woman Arrested After Pulling Out Her Gun And Threatening To Shoot During Argument About Parking Space.

    A Texas woman has been arrested after pointing a handgun at another person during an argument over a parking spot. According to News 4 SA, the incident unfolded on Nov. 24 in the parking lot of an H-E-B grocery store in Corpus Christi, Texas.

    Police say 60-year-old Rossie Dennis was arguing about a parking space when she pulled out her weapon and threatened to shoot.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/texas-woman-arrested-after-pulling-out-her-gun-and-threatening-to-shoot-during-argument-about-parking-space/ar-AARtc9o?ocid=U143DHP&li=BBnb7Kz

    • If you don’t believe that an armed society is a polite society, I invite you to migrate to Lubbock, Texas. Spend a year there. Walk into any restaurant, or place of business. You will find a lot of armed men. Rifles and shotguns in the vehicles, sidearms in holsters, both concealed and unconcealed.

      Then, I want to see and hear how you address the people in Lubbock.

      Your example of a woman threatening people over a parking spot? Did you notice that she was ARRESTED?!?! You seem to have missed that vital fact. She will be dealt with. And, she will lose the privilege of carrying weapons. Looks like things are working perfectly in that case.

      • If asked which I considered the more dangerous place to be between downtown Lubbock or Beirut, Lebanon I would say its a toss up. Both shit holes have bearded religious fanatics riding around with assault rifles in pick up trucks threatening ordinary decent people and both want to establish a religious caliphate and of course a right wing dictatorship.

        If Texas ever succeeds in actually seceding from the U.S. it will be the best thing that ever happened to the U.S.

        • Based on mainstream media reports, it would seem that Lubbock is safer than Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Chicago and many more cities where law abiding people are prohibited or severely restricted from owning or carrying the tools with which to protect themselves.

    • dacian the dimwit,

      You are a comedy treasure. Your vapid, mindless, illiterate regurgitation of Commie talking points is a source of never-ending yuks. And when you OCCASIONALLY post something semi-coherent (as you did, yesterday, and I explicitly gave you credit for) you find a way to follow it up with something so mind-foggingly stupid that it beggars the imagination . . . like this.

      I won’t even bother to fisk that trash comment; it isn’t worthy of the effort. I will simply suggest that you go somewhere more suitable to your particular set of delusions (the local nuthouse might be an option), and leave the adults to have an actual conversation. We won’t miss you.

    • petty people shoving nnd cutting in the line get chuffed, one draws down as a means of “settling” the matter. SHe settled it, alright. Her space was left vacant when sHE was arrested and her car hauled off by the srroestors, as should have happened.

      But WHAT does this bit of petty childishness have to do with teachers and staff being able to carry their weapons at school, just like they do everywhere else? Or what does it have to do with the price of canned lumber in China?

      Nest time you shold report on the guy shose dog takes a dump on his neighbour’s lawn. And doesn’t bother to clean up his mess.
      Adults can handle things like not enough spaces in the car park, dogs doing their bizniss on my lawn, and how to end a shooting rampage in a WalMart, Costco, or the local school.

    • I’m surprised no one ese here has mentioned the FASATER Saves Lives programme, developped in Ohio after the Sandy Hook massacre. Schoolstaff who already have their own carry weapon and the Mother May I Card, or want to get them alrady volunteered for an week long intensive training course in firearm safet,, gun handling skill,s tacits, EMT training, and deescalatioin skills. This was provided by volunteers, using donated facility time, and ammunition, and once certified, those individuals would be able, at their choice, to carry concealed as they went about their daily work in the schools they already worked at, as often as they wished. NO ONE knew who was/wasn’t armed. State laws were changed to enable this to happen. AND the entire programme wihcch continues today, was put togther and the training provided at NO COST to taxpayers or teachers.
      In the years since this programme began, there has been NOT ONE firearms related incident in any school where this programme was adopted. Seems word got out… don’t oick any school in Ohio tostage a massacre.. as there may be armed/skilled adults to make a quick end of it. You WILL go down.

      Other states have also adopted this, I believe COlorado is one of them. Flroida recently sg=igned on, they were wupposed to have this traing sometime this year, and begin implementing it next school year.

    • So one anecdote is generalizable to all gun owners?

      How are you different than those who blamed Muslims for 9-11?

  21. If you go into the schools here and could ask the teachers if they are armed with a firearm about 9 out of 10 would say “Yep, sure am”.

    It was a few armed teachers last year that defended against some armed gang members and forced them from school grounds when they tried to snatch a couple of kids during recess.

  22. All Teachers in public schools need to be armed and trained by the NRA in gun safety. Stop the violence! Protect our Children!

    Join the NRA!

    • “All Teachers in public schools need to be armed and trained by the NRA in gun safety.”

      All? I think not! Far too many there are so drunk on the Leftist Kool-Aid I want them nowhere near firearms…

    • Like Geoff says, nobody in his right mind wants ALL teachers to carry. Just allow the ones that are willing. That’ll be enough.

  23. All Human Beings in public service need to be legally armed and carry concealed in their daily lives. So many criminals out there with illegal arms need to be stopped by law abiding US Citizens in their workplace!

    Please take the NRA Safety Courses and get your CCW permit and carry everywhere you go! God Bless America!

    • NRA level gunsafety shuold be taken by ALL students and taechers everywhere by fifth grade. That is Entry Level stuff. Or get the equival

      TGeaachers, on the other hand need far more advanced training, including live fire skill development, tactics, and first aid. ent elsewhere.. experienced family and friends,. Back when, Dad always made sure the kids were safe with firearms by the time they could run and play ball.

  24. The society in the U.S. is disintegrating much as happened 2,000 plus years ago during the Roman Empire.

    The super Rich Roman (Capitalvanians) bought up all the farm land and ran the farms with slave labor which in turn put the people who once owned the farms all on welfare and with nothing to do. The U.S. did the same thing by shipping overseas the high paying jobs. Some groups of people have now had 4 generations of offspring who never had a decent paying job.

    To keep the people from revolting the Super Roman Rich gave the people free bread to eat and free passes to the Circus Maximus and the Coliseum. Ancient form of welfare. At least the Roman Army gave all of its Social Security Money to its retires and did not steal most of it as is done in the U.S. because it doles out a little at a time hoping the recipient dies before he gets it all back. The Life Expectancy in the U.S. is actually going down as compared to the other industrialized countries of the world making Republicans ecstatic because they will have to pay out less Soc. Security as the people die off younger and younger through lack of adequate medical and drug care.

    The Super Roman Rich stole most of the tax money (none of which they had to pay) and instead of improving and repairing the harbors, roads, aqueducts, fire departments and bath houses etc, etc. they let them deteriorate. Again, does this all sound familiar.

    The people, who hated their rulers, refused to join the Roman Army or support it in any way and Rome was forced to hire mercenaries to fight their wars for them (sound familiar) The U.S. has and is doing the same thing. To make up for the shortage of troops the U.S. lures foreign people into the military with the promise of future citizenship but few ever get it.

    Rome’s economy deteriorated and the super rich used immigrants as a scapegoat to blame them for the decline when in reality it was immigrants moving to Rome that invigorated it with new businesses and their ties to international trade. It other words by refusing to give new citizenship to recently arrived immigrants, the immigrants quit coming and the Rulers of Rome made the economic downturn far worse than it otherwise might have been.

    Roman family life disintegrated because of a lack of jobs for the men who became abusive to their wives and families and they then turned to alcohol and promiscuity. Even the Emperor Augustus ( who regularly raped teenage girls) bemoaned the decline in morals of the average Roman citizen. He actually attempted to start a new Morals revival.

    The gap in wealth between the Roman elite of society who had the best of food and medical care and consumer items and the average impoverished citizen provoked a deep hatred of the Roman Government and of Rome itself. When the Barbarians invaded the people of Rome threw flowers at the feat of the Barbarian Invaders. If the Canadians ever invaded the corrupt U.S. I am sure many Americans would also throw flowers at their feet.

    Our current situation in the U.S. is so different than what I experienced as a young boy growing up in the 50’s that it often seems as though I am living in a different country. The America I knew where it was safe to walk down the street, safe to go shopping, and safe to go to school does not exist anymore.

    The gap in income between the rich and the working people is now obscene and is only getting worse and so are societies problems. The U.S. is coming apart at the seams and is ripe for a new fake “Messiah” to claim that “Only he can make America Great Again” just as Hitler did in 1930’s Germany and Trump did in 2017. The result was a disaster for both Germany and the U.S. Germany was torn apart with racial injustices and later a world war and Trump did the same to American, deliberately pitting Americans against each other and was contemplating a civil war and hostile take over of the government to save his failed presidency. It was a miracle we avoided civil war and a Trump Right Wing Hitlerite dictatorship which the Far Right cheered for.

    In conclusion is it any wonder why the American family is disintegrating with divorce rates at all time highs and in many cases two parent families ceasing to exist and neglected latch key children realizing that they have no future are going insane and committing mass murder over trifling incidents at school?

    Postscript. In my 8 years of primary school in the 1950’s I knew of just one divorced family, you read that right just one. Today the average suburban school would probably have well over 50 per cent of the families divorced and it would be much higher in the poor inner cities where unemployment and underemployment and poverty are at an all time high.

  25. I don’t have any problems with doctors, engineers, nursing home employees or teachers carrying guns. However, I’d be terrified if a horse’s @ss like Ric Doringo was allowed to carry anything more deadly that a nail clipper.

    • OR to be entrusted with a group of children. Is obviously to irresponsible for such a duty. Go light a candle and wet yourself Doringo.

  26. Armed government officials…..IRS agents, Postal Inspectors, etc., are OK. Hundreds of government agencies have been quietly getting armed…..and millions of rounds of ammunition. And the purpose of this is….”

  27. I retired from full time teaching (elementary school) after 30 years, then 10 years substitute teaching. I was never allowed to carry at work, though I had my CCW for most of my career. I legally kept an unloaded handgun in my car all 40 years. Not ideal, but at least it was closer than my gun safe.
    I was responsible for the education AND SAFETY of my students at all times. They looked to ME to protect them. I thank my chosen deity that I never had to tell them to hide under their desks or in a storage room to, hopefully, survive a deadly attack. I know that I would have sacrificed myself to save them. I just wish I had been allowed to do so with a tool more effective than a wiffle bat, soccer ball or piece of chalk.

  28. “…a special kind of horror…”

    Not just any horror, mind, but the SPECIAL kind that only a sensitive educator can feel. *vomit*

    People like this guy make me sick. If you wouldn’t kill to protect the children that are in your care — or at least allow *someone* to defend them — you have no business being in charge of children.

    As far as I’m concerned, this human-shaped sack of offal is no better than the predators he refuses to stop.

  29. “Who else should carry guns? Doctors? Engineers? Nursing home employees? Is the effective solution to violence just more potential for violence?”
    Yes, because the ONLY way to end violence is with violence, living in the real world here cupcake.

  30. Just my opinion on this one. If an adult, regardless of vocation, employment, etc. who qualifies for a CCW permit in the state they are employed/live in wants to carry their weapon while at work, so be it. No one will be forced to carry while working. Nor should anyone be forced to be unarmed if they would feel more secure being armed.
    If a teacher so chooses and the local school board allows staff/teachers to carry, I say go for it. I would rather the small risk of a teacher shooting someone, than the risk of even more kids being killed because it takes the local cops 10 minutes to get to the school, asess the situation, organize a responce, and actually move in. Sure, if a shooter can be talked down or disarmed, give it a try. But, if needs be, do what you have too, to stop the threat.
    Nursing home staff, medical staff, engineers, construction workers, store clercks, restaurant staff, or anyone else who wishes to arm themselves, should be able to do so.

  31. At least, if the teachers/principals had the option to be armed, it would even the playing field, when the terrorists come into a school

  32. “Bringing guns into our schools conveys one monumental lesson: that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence.”

    I have news for you: This lesson was taught in my Social Studies II class in high school.

    We had a Vietnam veteran for a teacher, and he detailed for us the strategic defense policy of “Mutually Assured Destruction” with the Soviets. That was what you’re complaining about on an international scale.

    Guess what? MAD has kept the European area free of war for about 70 years now. The Russians and the US are on either side of Europe, and European nations know that both the US and Russia have the power to end any European nation in mere minutes.

    How significant is this? Go find another 70-year period without a major war in Europe in the last 2000 years. You can’t. MAD, and nuclear weapons, have done what prior generations would have thought impossible: Stop the Europeans from killing each other in huge numbers.

  33. Willoughby Ohio.
    Not far from me and it’s a decent suburb of that shit hole Cleveland.
    I view this as I view most things in life. You don’t want to carry a pistol? Don’t. Your choice. The other teacher wants to carry one? That’s his/her choice, not yours.
    Where I live in N.E. Ohio, there’s a Sherrifs deputy at the school everyday. Quiet, little farm town too. Parents are happy.

  34. “Bringing guns into our schools conveys one monumental lesson: that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence.“

    That’s the much vaunted “grown up” philosophy I have been hearing about.

    The entire reason the civilized world moved forward is because of this concept.

  35. “Bringing guns into our schools conveys one monumental lesson: that we should deal with violence in our society with greater threats of violence.”

    Bringing guns into our schools conveys one monumental lesson: that a teacher or staff member needs to be prepared to deal with acts of violence by actually being able to stop it.

    Schools talk a lot about how they will deal with a school shooting. Mostly its about plans and procedures that overall involve lock down, evacuation if possible, and waiting for the police to show up.

    You ever wonder that “if the school was on lock down, and the schools procedures are effective, then how does a shooter manage to still kill or wound people?”

    the answer is; school procedures like lock down are not about keeping all students safe, they are about keeping safe the ones that can reach or be in a lock down area. Sometimes a lot of students never reach those areas and need to find some other way to escape, unfortunately, some of them run into the shooter who during this time while the school was following “procedure” the shooter roamed the school unopposed without meeting resistance that could stop him/her.

    In 99% of all school shootings in the last 30 years, collectively, a minimum average of a 5 have been wounded or killed, after the shooter goes active and the school is aware and running procedure and on lock down and before police arrived, that average in all the shootings came at a time when resistance was lowest for the shooter because the police had not yet shown up and teachers and staff were busy trying to follow procedure (and locked students out in most of them) instead of actually having the means to defend when confronted with the violence. An examination of school shootings, even for Oxford, shows that more are injured or killed when the shooter meets no resistance to stop them from moving through the school.

    It could be very suitably and correctly considered that lock down, evacuation if possible, and waiting for the police to show up are defensive. But as every one who has been in the military in combat, or engaged a bad guy, or under fire can tell you – hiding does not make the in progress violent threat go away so what about those “minimum average of a 5” exposed and who is going to help them while you are locked down and before police arrive when the school shooter has basically unrestricted dominion ?

    A school shooter is there for targets, motivated by what ever motivated them, but there for targets none the less and although hiding, and lock downs etc… can make the majority safer until the Calvary arrives in the form of police – what about those average of five (or more) that get injured or killed because no one provided a stopping deadly force to counter the in-progress deadly force threat?

    The school shooter needs to be stopped as quickly and as early as possible, the teacher and staff are on scene already, the police are minutes away, and that “minimum average of a 5 have been wounded or killed” because the school is on lock down and everyone is busy with “procedure”. Oh, and a “resource officer” … unless they get the drop on the shooter early or knows where the shooter is its pretty likely they are not going to hunt for him/her and are going to wait for the police to arrive like their “procedure” says.

    Everyone following “procedure”, how nice and tidy, and the media eats it up with “the school followed procedures” and extolling the “heroic efforts” of teachers locking doors to keep their kids safe. The media never mentions that those “minimum average of a 5” would have had a much better chance if the shooter had been stopped before the police arrived.

    The shooter in the Oxford school shooting killed four students and wounded six students and a teacher before the police arrived. Lock down was not really the defensive thing the schools and media like to portray it as. The shooter moved unopposed, the could have stopped it before it even happened with just a phone call, they could have also stopped it after it started if teachers had been armed, trained, and prepared. In each case, for each opportunity to stop it they were following “procedures” instead of actually stopping it.

    Its a condition of the human animal that sometimes they do bad things, sometimes they suffer mental health issues, sometimes they harm or kill others, and school kids are no exception. But when that person starts bringing deadly force they need to be dealt with quickly and decisively and early, the only thing that stops, repels, or deters, in progress imminent deadly force threat is the threat or use of countering defensive deadly force. Teachers not only need to be armed, they need to be trained and prepared.

    • Just want to add…

      I’m not advocating shooting a kid with mental health issues who may not fully realize what he is doing. I am advocating that the threat needs to be dealt with quickly and decisively and sometimes that means shooting the threat. Apparently this kid was subject-able to the threat of countering deadly force because he simply quietly gave up when the cops showed up with guns pointed at him.

      He wanted someone to stop him, he literally asked for help by the notes he wrote on his drawings.

      A few teachers (or staff members) with guns pointed at him early in his attack could have had the same effect as the police arriving and its possible four students would be alive today and six students and a teacher would not be wounded. So, we can’t say for sure it would have worked out that way, some would say – and you would be correct. But one thing is for sure their “procedures” did not save the lives of four and keep seven from being wounded, and its a fact that resistance with firearms offers the best chance of stopping an in progress imminent deadly force threat.

      Its strange that schools pay so much attention to “procedures” for school shootings when its their “procedures” that result in or facilitate people being killed and wounded – by no one stopping the shooter before the police arrive.

      Let teachers and staff be armed, train them to engage school shooters, prepare them to engage school shooters – they are the only “viable force” (not counting students, no, don’t get them involved, get them out or safe) available on scene to stop the shooter before the police arrive.

  36. Prosecutor criticizes school over run-up to mass shooting

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/prosecutor-criticizes-school-run-mass-shooting-81585291

    “OXFORD TOWNSHIP, Mich. — The prosecutor overseeing the case against the student accused in last week’s deadly Michigan school shooting and who took took the rare step of charging his parents left open the possibility Monday that school officials could also face charges, saying “in this case, a lot could have been done different.”

    Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said the investigation’s findings will determine whether school officials will be charged in last Tuesday’s attack at Oxford High School.”

  37. Engineers are already very likely to be carrying guns. Also, I got a phd in the medical field and i worked closely with a lot of md and phd folks at the med school where i did my research. MANY of us were gunned up. I know a few armed nurses too, for that matter.
    so, yes. to everything she suggested. yes.

  38. Obviously a teacher who had no idea what the U.S. Constitution actually says. We have the God given right of self defense documented in the Second Amendment and you cry about men and women carrying weapons to actually use that right, are you just another coward?

    • It is a pity that that particular part of the US Constitution is so poorly written and thus so terribly open to misinterpretation.

      Look up Article 16 of the Constitution of the Republic of Vermont, which was brought along when Vermont became a State. Article rather than Amendment; it was in there from the get-go.

      Further, it was lifted verbatim from the Constitution of Pennsylvania.

      Much better writing, and not at all open to debate.

  39. “Is the effective solution to violence just more potential for violence?”

    No, cupcake. [An] effective solution to violence is an increased ability, in the case of our schools, for the guardians of potential victims of violence (our children and their guardians) to defend them with proven to be effective means to nullify it with equal or even greater force.

  40. How many citizens have permits in that state? And I bet a few are law abiding working people with families and or businesses to protect! Come on man! Let’s go Brandon!!!

  41. I’m an immigrant from England and Australia. I can remember exactly the same arguments as Dan Zimmerman’s being made as to why police should not be armed. And why forces operating under the auspices of the UN should be unarmed. To arm the local police or UN ‘peacekeepers’ would be to endorse and encourage violence etc. Just as stupid is Zimmerman’s suggestion that teachers in schools should be unequipped to deal with a murderous gun-toting student.

  42. Well Doringo, you will be horrified to learn how many of my doctor friends (including myself) do carry guns. There is a least one firearm (many times two) in my office at all times. I encourage my patients to bring their concealed guns for their appointments. Several years ago a middle aged couple brought their concealed guns into the examining room at my insistence. I have had patients sitting in the waiting room with a rifle inside a cardboard box clearly labeled “WINCHESTER” waiting to be seen. Several of my doctor friends had had to pull their guns from their white coat when coming out of the hospital in the wee hours of the morning when surprised by nefarious individuals in the solitary, semi-dark physician parking lot. No shots were fired, no police was called, and everybody (including the nefarious individuals) returned to their homes that night to enjoy another day. I wonder how many of those unreported encounters occur on a daily basis in this country.

  43. BAD OR CRAZY PEOPLE NEVER CARRY GUNS NOR ANY TYPE OF BAD WEAPONS , SO REST OF YA ALL DON’T NEED WEAPONS . UUUUH ??? IS THAT BAD OR WHAT ..

    WAIT MAYBE TRYING TO SAY IF AND IF ALL THE PEOPLE WHERE GONE AND ALL THE SUDENTS WHERE GONE N ALL TEACHERS / DOCTORS GONE , THEN NO NEED TO CARRY WEAPONS ..

    I GET NOW NO PEOPLE NO WEAPONS ..

    MOTHER EARTH WOULD REALLY RECOVER FROM HUMAN POLLUTION AND BAD WEAPONS .

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