Concealed carry draw gun
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Thirteen years ago, only two states — Vermont and Alaska — allowed its residents the unfettered right to carry a gun, relying on the Constitution’s Second Amendment as a blanket permit for all.

Since 2010, however, nearly two dozen states have followed suit, with 11 of them passing permitless carry laws in the last three years alone. 

The growing movement has chalked up wins in state legislatures with remarkable speed, drawing cheers from gun rights advocates while raising fears among reformers that the changes will lead to more guns in the street — and likely more violence. …

With big-ticket gun reforms like the Assault Weapons Ban or universal background checks stalled in Congress, the spate of state laws marks a defeat for the reform movement, which views the trend as a public security threat. 

Sociological studies tend to show that increases in gun ownership generally track with increases in violence.

“It’s no coincidence that in states with very permissive approaches to guns in public, you have higher rates of gun death,” said Adam Skaggs, chief counsel for the Giffords Law Center, a nonpartisan reform group. 

Over the last five years, researchers have increasingly shown that loosening restrictions on carrying handguns is also associated with problems like increased gun theft and road rage incidents, according to Stanford Law professor John Donohue.

Letting more people carry guns also impedes police work, Donohue said – partly from upticks in their caseloads of gun thefts and accidental shootings and partly because ramping up the risk of getting shot reduces police efficiency.

“One of the unintended consequences of putting more guns on the street is degrading police performance,” Donohue said. “You see clearance rates for all crimes drop when states move in the direction of letting more people carry guns.” 

— Roque Planas in People Can Now Carry Guns without a License in Half of America’s States

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      • Busy body giffords is the space man who attempted a straw purchase and was headed off at the pass by a savy FFL, giffords has no credibility whatsoever.

        99% of people who criminally misuse firearms are people who have a rap sheet that says they are a prohibited possesser meaning they carry concealed law or no law.

        A law that prevents the law abiding from having the means to defend themselves is sick and gets more sicker when the turds behind such laws have armed security.

      • Okay…how many of us went back up to Charles’ comment and counted the words to see if possum got his tally correct? *raises hand*

    • “…raising fears among reformers that the changes will lead to more guns in the street — and likely more violence.”

      Which, of course, it hasn’t happened in any of the 25 or so states that trust their citizens to do the right thing.

      If Donohue wants to be brutally honest, he must first admit that “prohibited people” have always enjoyed “Constitutional/permitless carry”. “We don’t need no steenking permits…”

      Today, in many of the dark blue-run areas, even when caught red-handed breaking firearms laws, these known felons/crazies are often set free without even having to post bond.

      I’d perhaps at least listen to some of these hyped-up charges if the regular criminal problem was solved first. Not in my lifetime.

      • well I’d like to get more guns, but I guarantee anyone that they will NOT end up “in the streets”. They will be safely stored on my right hip.

    • The Anti-Second Amendment cults are firm believers in the Big Lie Theory. Tell a lie often enough and the ignorant start to believe it.

  1. The thing that makes everything else more difficult for cops is the defund the police movement. When combined with Democrat leftist control, the job of the police becomes more of a waste of time and resources.

    It makes no sense to hear about the poor plight of the police from people that want them defunded.

    Upside down and backwards

  2. “Sociological studies tend to show that increases in gun ownership generally track with increases in violence.

    “It’s no coincidence that in states with very permissive approaches to guns in public, you have higher rates of gun death..”

    No and No.

    It appears that way in studies that use the false argument of ‘correlation = causation’ and purposely exclude that over 50% of homicide by use of a gun are justified legal valid self defense (AKA ‘justified homicide’) which is not murder.

    To date, every study pointed to by Giffords (and all anti-gun groups) trying to justify their anti-gun stance uses the false argument of ‘correlation = causation’ and implies or more directly states (though not exactly all the time) that all homicide is murder and purposely excludes that over 50% of homicide by use of a gun are justified legal valid self defense (AKA ‘justified homicide’) which is not murder. (80 – 85% of ‘homicides’ per the FBI UCR are criminal-on-criminal, police shooting criminals, or ordinary law abiding citizens using justified legal valid self defense)

  3. “It’s no coincidence that in states with very permissive approaches to guns in public, you have higher rates of gun death.”

    “Thirteen years ago, only two states — Vermont and Alaska — allowed its residents the unfettered right to carry a gun”

    Therefore, thirteen years ago, Vermont had the worst or second to worst level of gun deaths per capita in the country, right? If this isn’t true, then their entire argument falls apart.

    • The Left’s only out to explain Vermont’s low historical firearm homicide rate would be their usual one – racism. Or, as the Left likes to say “lack of diversity”. It’s the Philosopher’s Stone of Leftist nonsensical “logic”.

  4. So, I don’t know a lot of LEOs but I’ve known a few and every one I’ve ever discussed the topic with says that they *always* assume *everyone* they contact is armed until they establish otherwise. If that is the case, how does constitutional carry change anything?

  5. “One of the unintended consequences of putting more guns on the street is degrading police performance,” Donohue said. ‘You see clearance rates for all crimes drop when states move in the direction of letting more people carry guns.’ ”

    100% false.

    The overall police clearance rate for crimes has not changed. Its still low and always has been, and its because police forces generally, overall, lack the needed resources to encompass all the crime that happens so you end up with a lot of ‘cold cases’ and ‘exceptions’ that are never investigated. The second reason is because of how stats are kept.

    When an ordinary law abiding citizen performs justified legal valid self defense with their firearm its not counted in police stats as a ‘crime case clearance’ because its not a crime to do so thus no ‘crime case clearance’ so the stats do not reflect it for ‘clearance rates’ for crime.

    Indirectly, this author has justified that ordinary law abiding citizen performing justified legal valid self defense with their firearms is reducing crime rates. So the authors statement more correctly put would be … ‘You see clearance rates for all crimes drop when states move in the direction of letting more people carry guns as the crime rate drops when ordinary law abiding citizen perform justified legal valid self defense with their firearms.’

    Less crime clearances to go in the police clearance stats stats because its not a crime for ordinary law abiding citizen to perform justified legal valid self defense with their firearms, thus a decrease is police crime clearance rates.

    • also, if ordinary law abiding citizens perform justified legal valid self defense with their firearms and the criminal dies – the criminal is not charged or prosecuted with a crime even though it was their crime that put them in that situation. thus. in that situation, even though there was a crime by the criminal there is no ‘clearance’ for it in ‘crime clearance rate’ stats because there was no charge or prosecution because the criminal was killed by the ordinary law abiding citizens performing justified legal valid self defense with their firearm.

      so yeah, police crime clearance rates go down when states move in the direction of letting more people carry guns because more people are able to defend themselves, because there are less crimes police can put in stats as crime clearance.

      • Simple solution to that: Introduce “Bastard criminal shot down in his tracks by law abiding citizen.” as an official resolution in police documentation.

  6. I just don’t have it in me to be such a blatant fucking liar. Everything written was either an outright lie or just weasel word bullshit.

  7. Wow, the Prince of Lies must be teaching in at least one of the schools this guy attended. That or he is off his meds! Describing Giffords Law Center as a nonpartisan reform group is like calling NAMBLA a child welfare interest bunch.

    • He certainly wasn’t teaching English: “Thirteen years ago, only two states — Vermont and Alaska — allowed ITS residents…” Lol.

      • Sorry napresto. “Its” is the possessive form and is correct in this context. “It’s” is the contraction of “it is.”

        • Missed. Try again.
          its is the singular pronoun but it is used to apply to TWO states thus should be in the plural form not singular. Should be THEIR residents.

        • Nero,

          Sorry, but Tionico is correct on this one. If you’re discussing multiple states, you must use the plural pronoun.

          I blame public schools. If only they’d go back to teaching ‘readin’, ritin’ and ‘rithmatic’. A little history and science wouldn’t hurt, either.

  8. “When second count, cops are minutes away.”
    “They don’t stop crime, they investigate after the fact.”
    “Several federal and state courts have said police have no duty to protect you.”

    Conservatives think they’re immune to state propaganda…

    Between 2A and small government/less taxes, only an emotional liberal would declare they’re needed.

    • Oh yeah, I forgot about the newest 2A conservatives talking point:

      “The victim is always the first responder.”

      Do conservatives even hear themselves talking?

      • Who are you to decide whether I need a gun or not? Who are you to decide what sex someone else’s child should be? What gives you the right to decide what I can say? How about you come suck my left nut!

    • I would ask what are you thinking but that would require that you actually do think. Prove by evidence that any of those are false.

      • I didn’t say any of it was false.

        Each of those reasons is a reason why cops are unnecessary and a waste of tax payer money.

        The problem is that conservatives have been trained in the public indoctrination centers to defer to authority…

        • All people aren’t willing or capable of defending themselves from motivated criminals. You’re projecting. Armed, anarchist men are a small percentage of this country. A police presence, along with the threat of arrest and a long sentence, is a proven crime deterrent.

          A long term solution would be to first stop the degradation of society that our dear leaders are promoting. Then we need to reverse it. They have no appetite for that because it doesn’t personally help them, which is all they’re interested in.

        • For liberty and security to abound it is not necessary for ALL people to go about armed and prepared. If a small percentage were known to be able to be armed and skilled, the deterrent factor would be sufficiently high to deter all but the most hardened and desparate criminals.
          WHY did the misfit murderer select the theatre in Aurora Colorado rather than any of the dozen or so that were closer to him?Simple: the killer knew that the theatre he selected had firm no guns in this building policy in place, thus ASSURING that no law abidong oviegoers would shoot back at him.

          I ave often wondered what would have happened had ONE armed patriot been in there in defiance of the stated preference of the theatre mnagement and had fired one well placed round that took out the perp, down on the floor dead. WOULD they have had the guts to arrest and charge him? He obviously would have saved many lives. But he also would have “broken the law”. Would the prosecutor have had the stones to indict him? The jury almost certainly never would have

        • Eric, have you lost your mind? Police are a necessary part of the judicial system. How would you charge someone with a crime if they did not exist? Without police there would be utter chaos. Just look at Chicago? They have a police dept but the courts don’t back them up with they make good arrests.

        • The recent increase in arms sales is a direct result of a hands off approach to policing and convicting criminals. Even among people who take the time to buy a gun, and even get a carry permit, they rarely actually carry it. You’re delusional if you think the majority of people are ready and willing to fight young, motivated criminals.

  9. I’m a Ph.D. level medical research scientist, now retired. We tend to be learnedly meticulous regarding identifying relationships between observed events / phenomena and their causes.

    From the above article:

    “Sociological studies tend to show that increases in gun ownership generally track with increases in violence.”

    If I may share a quote grandly displayed on a very large screen in the spacious lecture room from one of my graduate school professors who was the absolutely very first lecturer I’d encountered on my very first day.

    “Coincidence IS ABSOLUTELY NOT Causation!”

      • @Eric O

        “I have a theory…

        Is Chicago violence (et Al) a “not enough cops” problem, or a “not enough 2A problem”

        a kinda dumb question but anyway…Chicago violence is a crime problem.

        • …Chicago violence is a crime problem.

          Because the locals can’t protect themselves, or because there aren’t enough cops to do it for them?

        • @Eric o

          “Because the locals can’t protect themselves, or because there aren’t enough cops to do it for them?”

          another dumb question… but anyway, once again, Chicago violence is a crime problem.

        • A question isn’t dumb simply because you refuse to answer it. Apparently the relationship between self defense and crime isn’t taken as seriously by bluecoat knob bobbers as one would think. Especially given their own rhetoric on the matter.

        • @Eric o

          “A question isn’t dumb simply because you refuse to answer it.”

          first I did answer your questions, twice. it just wasn’t the answer you needed to continue the ignorant anti-gun argument you are trying to provoke.

          second, they were dumb questions because they are short sighted and not well thought out and show an ignorance of the subject.

        • Chip, could there be too many criminals because of the lack of hope? The lack of jobs that can support a family?
          What do the powers that be expect when all the manufacturing jobs get sent offshore? Who benefits from this?
          They caused the problem and now they want an even greater tax decrease.
          Our country is for Americans and should employ Americans to manufacture goods that we use. At least, we should demand the same manufacturing practices from other countries that we demand of ourselves, just to keep a level playing field.

          Yes, we have a lot of ne’er do wells in this country, but we also have many that have just given up to drugs and alcohol. Many marriages and families can’t take the hit of a 3 year unemployment/disability from the major bread winner.

        • rt66paul, those are all valid questions. I would suggest, though, that law-abiding citizens who merely choose to avail themselves of the exercise of constitutionally protected rights do not assume the burden to provide answers to those questions – and especially not, when providing answers to those questions becomes an implicit requirement to justify said exercise of rights.

        • You’ll be safe as long as you put your Gadsden flag sticker next to the back the bluecoats sticker.

        • The number of untested rape kits is a certain sign that cops just do not give a phuc. Even evidence in their hands isn’t enough to go get the darkies responsible.

        • Eric o,

          Are you such an idiot that you believe police are the ones who test rape kits??? Or are you just being tendentious?

          Rape kits are tested by labs (USUALLY, private labs), who get paid on a ‘per test’ basis. And police don’t normally set their own budgets. I’m no fan of cops, but your idiot antipathy to the CONCEPT of policing (as opposed to how it is often executed) is laughable. Take down your Che poster, throw away the bong, and get a phreakin’ life.

      • Eric o,
        The short term solution is to catch and lock the criminals up for as long as possible. The long term solution is to make sure future criminals become productive, law-abiding citizens instead of future criminals. Neither of those solutions will give the state more power, so they will shout you down as a racist if you dare to suggest it.

  10. This is the kind of belief and thought process that will cause a Civil War in this country. Because, I will not comply. And I will not be the only one. There will be millions of people who will not comply. And it doesn’t have to be a civil war with large military formations moving across state lines. That is not going to happen. But what will probably happen, will be large areas of the country, where formal Law and Order will break down. Most likely in the major cities controlled by democrats.

    And those seeking Refuge in the more conservative areas, but who also bring their liberal voting patterns with them, will encounter “very stiff resistance”.

    There are simply far too many people now in the United States who believe you don’t have the right to defend your own life. You’re supposed to die while waiting for the police to come. Assuming you are even able to call for help in the first place.

  11. That the job of agents of the state is rendered more difficult by virtue of more people exercising constitutionally protected, natural rights is a feature, not a bug.

    It is not the responsibility of the law-abiding to make law enforcement officers’ jobs easier.

    • Nice fantasy Chip but not reality. Read my post below about just two incidents of many that prove reality is very different than Far Right fantasies about your gun rights.

      • What fantasies? I simply stated axioms. Are you intending to respond to someone else’s comment, or did you perhaps forget to take your meds today?

        • Read my post below Chip and its facts, not Right Wing fantasy about gun rights you think you have. The law often says one thing but when the people in power disregard the law it is you who go to jail not them. You certainly live in an alternate universe.

      • oh great…dacian has more cherry picked situations and shows once again he doesn’t understand basic third grade math or context.

  12. Does Professor Donohue have an explanation for the continued “degrading performance” in clearing of murder cases by the Chiconda Police Department?

    • That trend is nationwide and coincides with a public policy where DOJ subsidizes police for drugs, but not rape and murder.

      That Biden, in his senate role, has ensured what we now know to be a criminal DOJ, continues to do so, is lost in this crowd.

      • As racist as Biden is, making the connection to Harry Anslinger and a public policy that dominates our domestic law enforcement budget… critical thought is not a feature for many folks after 12+ years at the public indoctrination center where they trus taught to defer to authority, at the same time those centers teach almost nothing about the Constitution.


    Many years ago I asked a power mad Cop (arn’ t they all) about Ohio’s law that allowed open carry but in those days of yore not concealed carry. I asked the Storm Trooper what he would do to me if he saw me carrying openly even though I had the legal right to do so. He snarled and laughed at me and then instantly gave me a wide range of charges he would arrest me on including “inducing panic”.


    Mr. Marley was arrested and imprisoned NOT ONCE BUT TWICE for LEGALLY carrying openly. Why? Because the Gestapo was out to get him and make an example of him. You know the old cliche “You cannot beat City Hall” is actually quite true.

    • P.S. The above link was not just about Mr. Marley being arrested twice but there are other people in the link that were also arrested for LEGALLY carrying a weapon.

      • lil’d
        I’ve lived in Ohio most of my life. Open carried a LOT before we had cc. Never been threatened with arrest. Did have cops ask me why a few times and for id once when she thought I had it inside my vehicle, big no no at the time. It ended with have a nice day.
        So do your mom a favor, clean your room and take out the trash.

        • Yep, Dackie Boy, take yerself out for a walk. A very LONG walk. Out where the lions and tigers are hungry.

    • So you think something is illegal if the cops say it is? That isn’t the way this works.

      If my state says something is legal then it’s legal (in that state). It does not matter if it’s carry a gun or smoking weed. A cop going against that is what isn’t legal. Cops do NOT make law. You can pull up all the stories and articles you want but none of it changes anything.

  14. I find it very telling that there is seldom a means to comment at the origin of the cited publication. Comments here at TTAG are often well informed and verifiable so it would be fun to refute the propaganda at it’s source using this info. But unfortunately that is usually not possible.
    But I guess that’s the purpose of propaganda….

  15. More people die in California than in Montana. Clearly, California is bad for your health.

    Chicago has more streets than Allentown, PA. Chicago has more.murders than Allentown. Clearly, streets are associated with murder. We need street control.

    Very few murders, nationwide, are committed in trees. We can reduce the murder rate by forcing everyone to live in tree houses.

    Follow the science.

      • Wow, you really are stupid, and have difficulty with concepts. The “authoritarian” right (a total laugh; the only authoritarians we have in America today are the Leftist/fascists, like you, dacian the demented, and MinorLiar) does NOT either support OR support defunding “the police”.

        Most “right wing” people I know agree that the police are necessary, and perform a valid function . . . but do it poorly. I think better training, better (and FEWER) laws, and better focus on real crimes, is what most “right wingers” would like to see. Oh, and abolish public employee unions.

    • Are you a certifiable lunatic, or just stupid? Inquiring minds want to know. Please draw the map of how a firing of a public official, apparently over trying to trace the financial community’s involvement in the Epstein minor-trafficking business, relates to the drug war??

      I got it. You’re stupid.

  16. “You see clearance rates for all crimes drop when states move in the direction of letting more people carry guns.”

    “You see clearance rates for all crimes drop when states move in the direction of letting more people [out without bail].”


  17. My local police were never defunded, but they” depoliced” us anyway. I can not imagine how their performance could be degraded by any external force when they are nearly inert now.

  18. The argument that more people carrying will mean more murders has not been proven. Homicides, which is not always murder, as in justifiable homicide. Someone shooting/killing a criminal is seldom considered murder in most places.
    Evry LEO I’ve spoken/discussed this with has admitted they assumed anyone they were in contact with to be armed until proven otherwise. Even with a permit, I have had my side arm run for stolen and a check done on me for wants/warrants. Simply because I informed the officer when asked that yes, I was armed.
    More armed citizens will do little if anything to degrade police efforts in apprehending criminals. The last cop that stopped me because he was bored on Sunday night when I told him I was armed, responded by saying “So am I.” Just a case of don’t start nothing and there won’t be nothing.
    The recent increase in crime has been mostly in either Democrat controlled cities, or very economically depressed suburban or rural areas. Much of which is caused not by firearms, but by drugs. Robberies to support habits or fights over turf.
    And the last issue I saw in the comments. Most of us who are centrist to conservative do show respect to those in positions of authority. Most of us were taught from early childhood to respect our elders. Then to respect our teachers and coaches. As young adults were taught to respect law enforcement and judges. As well as other officials.
    We soon learned to respect to office, badge, position. Not necessarily the person. And, in many cases we do defer to and respect that authority. Until we are shown we cannot. I respect a police officer until that officer shows he is a bully, or asshole/bad cop. But, I will still show respect to the next cop I deal with.


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