Defunding The Police Will Only Result in More Dead Black People

defund the police protest

(AP Photo/Matt York)

A veto-proof majority of Minneapolis’ city council have vowed to not only reduce funding to the city’s police department, but to disband it altogether. They say they mean to “end policing as we know it and recreate systems that actually keep us safe.” This was after boy-Mayor Jacob Frey was publicly shamed by a crowd of protesters for refusing to support defunding police after he’d begged them for absolution.

The city seems dead-set on dismantling its law enforcement capabilities, because, defunding supporters claim, “police are not able to create safety for communities.” If they think it’s bad now, just wait until there’s no one but social and community service workers to call when their car is stolen, someone is  breaking into their home or robbing the local convenience store.

[People concerned about saving black lives] should also resist calls from prominent Democrats to “defund the police.” Police save many lives in the black community by arresting dangerous people. Black people are much more likely to be killed by an ordinary criminal than by a police officer. Peter Kirsanow, a black civil-rights commissioner, says that in “2015, a cop was 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male was likely to be killed by a cop.”

Cutting police funding may leave the police without the manpower needed to investigate and arrest many violent criminals. It is often harder to investigate murders in poor black neighborhoods, where witnesses fear retaliation. For example, Chicago solves 47% of cases when a murder victim is white, but only 22% of cases when the victim is black.

When criminals are arrested and jailed, that reduces the crime rate. The National Bureau of Economic Research discusses how “sentence enhancements reduce crime,” by keeping “repeat offenders” off the streets. Criminal penalties also save lives by deterring murder. As the Associated Press noted in 2007, “Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).”

Removing police from black communities increases the death rate there, because black murder victims are usually killed by other black people in the same community. Eighty-nine percent of black victims are killed by black offenders, according to the FBI.

– Hans Bader in Jumping to conclusions about police killings

comments

  1. avatar Dave in Houston says:

    good grief. What a stupid idea.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      From what I’ve read via other sources, the Minneapolis City Charter requires a police force (currently budgeted for up to 888 officers), and the Mayor is charged with the responsibility of its leadership. So the Council’s rhetoric of “abolishing” the department may only be that…rhetoric, smoke, and mirrors. A full dismantling would seemingly require a formal change to the Charter itself first. I think the immediate actions would likely be more along the lines of partially defunding the more visible portions of the department, such as patrols or venue security.

      Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our own L.A. Mayor Garcetti has made his own appearance before the BLM masses on the bent knee of submission and pledged to remove $150 million from the LAPD budget. My friends on the force are wondering what that will do to their personal income expectations. Does this mean a freeze on hiring? A reduction of existing salary levels? A moratorium on overtime or hazard bonuses?

      1. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

        Guess it will matter on how easy it is to alter the charter. I know for the state police here there will be a few decades before the state Constitution can even be brought up for ballot to have amendments proposed and many towns/cities largely go by that so next generation issue short of an illegal change in NY (not that it doesn’t happen anyway)

        1. avatar California Richard says:

          When has a piece of paper ever stopped leftist tyranny?

        2. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

          When it’s a bankruptcy.

      2. avatar Ed Schrade says:

        One budget cut that i could support would be eliminating security for elected officials that is paid for by the taxpayers . This would apply to the city and county officials.

        1. avatar rick3 says:

          link goes to a still pic of someone (council member?). no video for me…

        2. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          Hmm. Just tested it again, and it works for me. It’s the newscast video showing a portion of an interview with the Councilman.

          Click on the thumbnail pic on your screen to start the vid.

      3. avatar doesky2 says:

        I hope those citizens of Minneapolis get what they want….Good and hard.
        I’ll be laughing like hell.

      4. avatar M1Lou says:

        When have words on paper stopped the commies from enacting their policies?

      5. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our own L.A. Mayor Garcetti has made his own appearance before the BLM masses on the bent knee of submission and pledged to remove $150 million from the LAPD budget.

        Was not Emma Hernandez riddled with bullets under his watch?

    2. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Dave in Houston,

      I had the same initial reaction. Then I thought about it in-depth and concluded that we might as well defund police in urban enclaves since they are largely ineffective and, as it turns out, unnecessary.

      I would provide all the details but this $#@!% website keeps labeling my comments as spam even though there are no links to other websites, no profanity, and no vulgarity. Perhaps I can reply to this comment with some of the facts.

      1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

        Here are some simple facts:

        a) Police almost never stop a crime before or during the crime. That is why we keep shouting the mantra, “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.” In other words victims are already on their own with current policing levels. That situation will not be any worse if we defund police.

        b) Police often fail to identify criminals and arrest them after the fact. Reference Chicago police only solving about 10% of murders in the city.

        c) The average life expectancy of gang-bangers is about 23 years old here and now with existing policing efforts/levels. In other words violent thugs die off sooner-or-later because they inevitably choose a victim who is faster, stronger, better prepared, or luckier. This also demonstrated how ineffective police are.

        d) More and more urban enclaves are implementing “no cash bail” which releases criminals the same day or, worse, refusing to prosecute “petty” crimes. What is the point, then, of having police?

        e) There is effectively no policing (as in none, zero) in huge rural areas and there are no rampant crime problems, especially heinous violent crimes.

        Those are facts. Together they tell me that policing is almost entirely ineffective and ultimately unnecessary. Why not defund police in urban enclaves and empower local people to care for themselves — something that “people of the gun” have been promoting forever?

        1. avatar TexTed says:

          re: gangs shaking people down for money for “protection”…

          … that’s different from governments shaking us down for (tax) money to provide police “protection” how?

          (and no, I’m not anti-police, I’m just pointing out the hilarity of the statement.)

        2. avatar Joeyj says:

          “e) There is effectively no policing (as in none, zero) in huge rural areas and there are no rampant crime problems, especially heinous violent crimes.”

          Uh…that’s because there aren’t as many Defective Citizens in those huge rural areas. And, the locals are heavily armed, know how to shoot, and if you B&E or loot their places, they’ll shoot your scrungy ass…..irrespective of its color.

        3. avatar George Washington says:

          I for one am a staunch supporter of the police…. but I tend to agree….
          I WOULD LOVE TO BE FREE TO TAKE THE LAW INTO MY OWN HANDS….I COULD BE JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONER…..
          Just remember lol…. you asked for this if you defund your own police department..

          On a serious note though, this is exactly why nobody can treat these people as equals…. your low intelligence is such that you LITERALLY need to be protected from your own STUPIDITY…
          I will tell you this, just as soon as you lose these hair brained ideas is when intelligent America can actually take you seriously and then, AND ONLY THEN, WILL YOU BE TREATED AS EQUAL…

      2. avatar uncommon_sense says:

        And a final point:

        If we largely defund police in urban enclaves, I predict that neighborhoods in those enclaves will police themselves:

        People will not allow heinous violent criminals in their midst. If a violent criminal neighbor savagely beats one neighbor, robs another neighbor, and rapes yet another neighbor, one of the neighbors WILL put a stop to it — especially when they don’t have to contend with police harassment, arrest, and prosecution for doing what was necessary.

        And look at it this way: many people in urban enclaves are already at the point — with current policing levels — where they will seriously beat up or murder someone simply for “disrespecting” them. If we defund police, will those same people who will beat/murder someone right now for “disrespecting” them suddenly allow bad actors to beat up, rob, rape, and murder their neighbors? I don’t think so.

        1. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

          “If we largely defund police in urban enclaves, I predict that neighborhoods in those enclaves will police themselves:”

          What will happen is the gangs will shake down the residents for ‘protection’. There will be some very rich people in those areas, and the poor more impoverished…

        2. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          uncommon, Geoff,

          I believe you’re both correct. Some form of self-policing will manifest itself, but most likely as vigilante groups that will eventually give way to gangs. Then a mafia or cartel will nudge the gangs out of the way to provide a level of peace to local residents, in exchange for either “fees” from the residents, or leeway from whatever law enforcement entity still claims jurisdiction. You know, like Mexico.

        3. avatar Kendahl says:

          In the absence of any organization similar to police, street gangs will control neighborhoods. Are gangs criminal because they sell drugs or do they sell drugs because they are criminals? The Mexican experience shows it’s the latter. Cartel thugs terrorize the locals. The same will happen (and already does) in any community without a force tough enough to suppress the gangs.

        4. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Kendahl,

          In the absence of any organization similar to police, street gangs will control neighborhoods.

          If your statement is true, there are no street gangs operating in neighborhoods right now. That means you can wear any colors you want and safely stroll unarmed down any street anywhere in Los Angeles, Oakland, Chicago, Houston, Miami, Baltimore, and New York City, correct?

          WRONG!!!

          Gangs already operate in cities right and murder people every day in our cities right now.

        5. avatar George Washington says:

          Do you even listen to yourself?…. you obviously are brain damaged or just fkn dumb…..
          You are actually saying this crap with a straight face???? .. GTFO HERE!!!!!!

        6. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          George Washington,

          Translation of your reply, “I don’t like what you are saying so I am going to hurl insults and try to browbeat you into silence or agreement with me!”

          Do you have anything factual to add to the discussion that any of us overlooked or misunderstood?

          In the event that you were replying to me, recent events put an exclamation point on my claim that police right now are almost entirely ineffective in urban enclaves: not only is crime rampant in urban enclaves, so is rioting, looting, and arson!

          And to further emphasize my point that police are ineffective in urban enclaves, I present Devil’s Night in Detroit. In years past, criminals would set hundreds/thousands of fires to buildings on Devil’s Night in Detroit. Police would/could not stop it. One day, the locals finally had enough and announced that they were going to patrol their streets and STOP it. And they did exactly that! What the police were unable to do, local people accomplished. For the past 10 or 20 years now, local people continue to patrol their neighborhoods on Devil’s Night and there are few if any building fires any more.

          As with almost everything, government solutions rarely ever work for a variety of reasons. That includes government police in urban enclaves. That is a fact whether you like it or not.

    3. avatar Connie says:

      Yeah, but nice tits.

      1. avatar John’s Henry says:

        Agreed. 😉

      2. avatar the shadow says:

        boy howdy.

    4. avatar Mike Carbine says:

      The US criminal justice system is changing a lot these last 4-5 years. Cause over 2 million locked up long term is now a bad thing, and what’s worse is Blacks (only 13% of pop) are over half of the convicted for violent crimes, can’t have that, numbers like that make them look bad. George Soros has been getting DAs elected across the country for the last 4 years under the radar and now we have:
      5 states have ended bail bond, many municipalities have ceased enforcement of vagrancy and petty theft(up $750)laws,
      sanctuary cities for illegal aliens, Trump’s ‘prison reform’ gave thousands of POCs reduced sentencing and early outs for even before Chicom flu,
      (they let 60k and counting out early for that, if they even charge em these days)
      And to top it all off the Democrat leaders of cities, counties, and States are letting the looters run wild and slamming the police(firing and charging cops on the spot).
      Unlike the past where they took care of The State’s Enforcers, now they are playing to the mobs, even talking of defunding their own PDs.

      Very trying times to be law enforcement indeed. Some guys I know are working a full time PD and part time for county sheriffs, security, and or corrections just to make ends meet. Heck most MPs at Ft. Leonard Wood also drive cabs or ubers on their off-time.

      The future is looking rough

    5. avatar Truth Hurts says:

      And? Is this an argument FOR defunding the police? If so, it’s the best one I’ve heard.

      1. avatar George Washington says:

        Yeah well you’re fkn moron who only hears what he wants to hear….. like a gd CHILD …. SO SIT THE FK DOWN AND STFU LIKE THE CHILD (SHALL I SAY, BOY) YOU ARE!!!!….. DUMB SOB

  2. avatar Leighton says:

    Let them police themselves…surely it will work…what could possibly go wrong?
    Think there are food deserts now? Just wait.
    Many companies will think three times before moving into some neighborhoods.
    If they do…better have roll down doors and sprinkler systems standard…just in case.

    1. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

      A neighborhood ‘representative’ will stop by to chat with the manager, and an arrangement will be made so it won’t be torched…

      1. avatar George Washington says:

        There manager will have already hired outside security so those morons you’re referring to won’t mean $heeeiiit to the store manager…..js

  3. avatar MouseGun says:

    As harsh as it sounds, maybe the black community needs some tough love. Give them what they want; let them control their own neighborhoods. Cripple or completely remove police forces from certain areas (with an unspoken rule that you keep it in your backyard). And as much this sounds like some sort of pseudo-segregation, just remember it’s not racist if non-whites instigate it.
    (Half-sarc)

    1. avatar BusyBeef says:

      If you remove gun control, and everyone actually tools up, I bet you’ll have SAFER neighborhoods.

    2. avatar Truth Hurts says:

      South Africa proved that Segregation was correct.
      Marcus Garvey offered the only solution.

    3. avatar Southern Cross says:

      Politely advise them no law enforcement will also result in no taxes being collected, which means no schools, no garbage collection, no water, no electricity, no sewage, no postal service, and no welfare.

      Have fun stewing in your own mess, until the next level of social predators arrive. And then things will get worse.

  4. avatar Colorado Kid says:

    Give them what they want, and then stand back and watch them scream for protection when the crime rate explodes.

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      It appears the plan is to promptly (really) spend the money which will (theoretically) be saved, on nutso social programs, sometimes recognized as useless pandering giveaways, so that when they begin screaming for the PO-lice to come back there will be no money left to pay them. Cities which adopt this insanity will have only one possible course of action 6 months later, to repeal all gun laws and allow citizens to defend themselves or die.

      1. avatar ColoradoKid says:

        “…to repeal all gun laws and allow citizens to defend themselves or die.”
        They won’t do that, but they will continue to pass more gun violence laws…because “we have to do something”. Those insane government idiots are steering that ship right now, and it will only get worse for everybody. Hopefully the sane will make the necessary changes in November.

    2. avatar TexTed says:

      >>Give them what they want, and then stand back and watch them scream for protection when the crime rate explodes.<<

      I don't think you understand the level of insanity they're working on. Let me help you:

      Several cities have already begun to give them what they want, by eliminating cash bail, so arrestees are immediately freed. Yes, the crime rate has exploded in those cities.

      The solution, in their minds, is to eliminate the police. Because if there are no police, there are no arrests. Therefore, the crime rate will go down. See, it's simple!

      The problem, then, becomes that of perceived crime, because when they eliminated penalties for petty theft, petty theft skyrocketed, and thus the crime rate went up. The solution, to them, is to eliminate private property. If you don't own anything, then nobody can steal it from you. And then we arrive at the ultimate utopia, a crime-free society modeled after Karl Marx's glorious vision.

      This is what they're after, and they will stop at nothing to get it. Remember a few months ago when they started bandying about eliminating private home ownership, to solve "housing inequality"? There is only one way this ends.

      I only hope the country has the sense to split in two before it happens, and the red states have the balls to implement an anti-welfare constitutional amendment.

  5. avatar anarchyst says:

    Put a wall around the “black section” of Minneapolis, search anyone leaving the “black section”, drop pallet loads of AK47s and ammunition in the “black section”. The problem will take care of itself.
    The imported somalis can show American blacks how to properly use weapons.
    No, I’m not being facetious. If that is what blacks want, give it to them.

    1. avatar Ron says:

      The White Antifa terrorists can go in with them.

      In fact we could put it on TV…

      1. avatar GS650G says:

        Shades of George Carlin’s State Prison Farms

      2. avatar Dan W says:

        Pay per view and we’d have the national debt gone inside a week.

      3. avatar LarryinTX says:

        Shoot, invite the white supremacists, too! They’d be convinced they’d be in control, for about 5 seconds. Entertainment factor = 10! But I’m almost out of popcorn! Plenty of ammo, gotta resupply popcorn.

    2. avatar BusyBeef says:

      Seriously, wtf is wrong with you?

  6. avatar California Richard says:

    Good God….. It’s like they all picked up a Kurt Schlichter novel and said to themselves, “Well, jee wiz,..this sounds like a good idea.” They should do it and we should all watch. Let Minneapolis be an example to the rest.

    1. avatar Manse Jolly says:

      I’ve read them all. Waiting on the next, hopefully he’ll tel the story of the split right before it happened.

      The logical conclusions of the concepts are right out of today’s headlines.

      1. avatar MouseGun says:

        I have no idea what you two are talking about, but you’ve piqued my interest.

        1. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

          Kurt occasionally pops it to comment in TTAG…

        2. avatar CarlosT says:

          Kurt Schlichter wrote a series of dystoptian action novels set in an America that has split into separate nations. The first in the series is People’s Republic and there are currently four books out.

          I liked them. They’re not exactly full of subtly shaded, complex characters, but the action is good, and really the main draw is playing with the scenarios that arise when today’s strange ideas are taken all the way down the line.

    2. avatar LarryinTX says:

      NYC would be more fun.

      1. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

        You didn’t see the Kurt Russell movie about this already?

  7. avatar Leighton says:

    Set up two (or more ) departments…one for whites and one for blacks…more if needed.
    911: calling for white cops or black? let me direct your call…
    or maybe we job it out to Indians or Mexicans…maybe Canadians…or French

    1. avatar SoCalJack says:

      How about privatized police in the future?
      Sci-Fi Short: From the Future with Love.
      https://youtu.be/Eo2OQsPDwBI

      1. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

        “How about privatized police in the future?”

        As in, the Crips have one block, the Latin Kings another, and the Bloods take care of another?

      2. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

        DUST makes some good shorts.

        This is another good one :

  8. avatar Leighton says:

    Just make sure that ALL law-abiding people are able to arm and defend themselves at all times

  9. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

    Where the Costco size bag o popcorn to watch this?

    1. avatar Ferg in Tahoe says:

      Might need a case!

      1. avatar 9x39 says:

        Might need a container ship sized supply…

  10. avatar Charley says:

    Seems pretty simple to me, add social workers and have them respond to the communities who prefer that, and police to communities who want them.
    The 3rd precinct is gone, the police who normally work out of there should be redistributed elsewhere where roving bands of misunderstood protesters are sure to sure to show up bearing arms.

  11. avatar Dude says:

    Actual data doesn’t matter to the Party of Science. They want back in control of the country, and they’re willing to burn it down to get there. They’re perfectly fine with inciting riots that kill black people and devastate black business owners. They know the media won’t hold them accountable for their words or actions. Everything bad will always be because of Trump to the fake news media and their mindless, groupthink followers.

    I feel sorry for the few remaining reasonable people left in democrat controlled towns.

    1. avatar Alexander says:

      Exactly. This is elections by other means.

    2. avatar LarryinTX says:

      TRUMP 2020!! And 2024!

    3. avatar Saran Wrappe says:

      Dont feel sorry for us. We have front row seats to the crazy playing out in front of us. And if the crazy gets too much, I’ll have more fun expending my ammo.

      I like the idea of giving the coasts to the libs and the rest to real Americans. We get the Gulf of Mexico.

      Then watch how quickly they fall apart. Plus, with us controlling food we can overcharge and bring them to their knees like Reagan did Russia. Not that I care to do that.

  12. avatar No one of consequence says:

    I say let them go for it.

    But freeze federal grants etc to the city, to present levels for the next 10 years. I’m in the half of Americans who pay federal taxes, and I don’t want to pay for this experiment.

    Don’t get me wrong, if it works I’ll be happy for them. But I don’t expect to be surprised by the outcome.

  13. avatar enuf says:

    Demilitarize police. There are far too many SWAT teams and armored vehicles.
    Outlaw the “No-Knock Warrant” except in case of hostage rescue.
    Train away the “Warrior Cop” approach.
    Train all officers in De-escalation, instead of what some officers do today which is make matters worse.
    Train all officers that they have a “Duty of Care” for a suspect.
    Train officers that all are responsible to stop brutal behavior of other officers.
    Enough already with uniforms that are black or so dark a blue as to seem black. Police are not Ninja’s, are not supposed to look like Nazi SS troopers either.

    1. avatar A guy says:

      Bingo.

      Personally, I’m not for wholesale removal of the police. What I am against is the mindset that the police are a pseudo-military force used to forcibly control American citizens.

      I know I’m arm chair quarterbacking, but in a lot of the police interaction gone wrong videos, what I see is an individual completely out of their depth and too pigheaded to either try another method of deescalating or too prideful because “suspect not listening to me!” They need better verbal judo skills. They need to focus on more deescalation methods instead of making the situation worse and necessitating the use of force. Proper use of force is important, and they need training in that too! I’m not saying we should disarm police but force should be used when there’s no option, not because this guy isn’t doing what I’m saying.

      Defunding shouldn’t mean removing officers. Its a red herring and it should raise alarm bells if you hear it. What it should mean is you don’t get to buy another APC (the city of <20,000 people near where I grew up has one…why?). You don't get to buy full auto guns (if I as a regular guy can't have one, the police shouldn't either). If a situation arises that you need that kind of firepower, call the state's SWAT team.

      As far as "Who are you going to call when someone breaks into your house and steals your TV" still the police, I'm calling them to take a report that someone broke in. I'm not too concerned with either getting my stuff back or them rushing to my house because they've proven to be fairly terrible in both of those aspects in my experience.

      tl:dr:
      Improve deescalation
      less focus on tools, more focus on tactics
      city level orgs should be peacekeepers, state or national level should be force

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Peacekeeper like the ones the UN had a Jagotville or THE US sent to Somalia? /Sarc

      2. avatar LarryinTX says:

        I have loved the argument that full auto’s only purpose is to kill massive numbers of people quickly, immediately followed by “only the police should have them”! When have the police, anywhere, had a legitimate need to kill massive numbers of people quickly?

        1. avatar LazrBeam says:

          Spot on, Larry.

    2. avatar tdiinva says:

      The only factor in play in Floyd’s death was the indifference of the other three officers. Your list of things to to do are just Faux Libertarian hobby horses. If you actually talk to black residents they want more policing of their neighborhoods, not less. They know that gangs have turned their neighbors into war zones and they just want a little peace and quiet.

      What really needs to be done is encourage black gun ownership among the law abiding with an assurance from authorities that a DGU won’t be prosecuted. We need something like the Anbar Awakening and not some BS pushed by pro-gang editors over at Reason.

      1. avatar LarryinTX says:

        That does not seem to be the case for tens or hundreds of thousands if protestors on TV this week. They are demanding that police be removed completely. Theory and assumptions are fine until we clearly see they are not correct.

        1. avatar tdiinva says:

          There are a 100k gang members in Chicago. It’s easy to him a mob when you have the troops. The mob is not the people.

        2. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

          What is the average age of these protesters? They all look like children to me. Children are easy to manipulate

    3. avatar Ron says:

      Yeah but this has nothing to do with police militarization.

      This is about the lefts cultural revolution.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Faux Libertarians are just as guilty as white radicals in using George Floyd to push their own agendas while they ignore the elephant in the room.

        1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

          “Faux Libertarians are just as guilty as white radicals”

          Finally some honesty. But I blame ALL LIBERTARIANS. Because the others are just cowards. They want to increase their numbers. That’s why some of them call themselves anarchist. Or they call themselves “Libertarian Socialist”.

          That is how William Weld became the VP candidate. Now they have a self described a “anarchist” for VP.

          I have yet to see a Libertarian politician call for the government to shoot looters. To use the police or military, in other words, GOVERNMENT FORCE to stop the riots.

          It seems the Libertarians are only good for “the good times”. They don’t have what its takes for the bad times as well.
          But they are really good for using fentanyl and smoking meth.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          The only people who are actual Libertarians are the followers of Hayek and they don’t call themselves Libertarians. Anybody who says “I am a Libertarian” is a faux Libertarian.

    4. avatar Dude says:

      enuf,

      Why are you calling for solutions instead of your usual blind rage “It’s a failure of leadership!” comment?

      Why haven’t solutions been implemented? Where’s the accountability? Do people really not notice that the whole RACISM CRISIS is a distraction from holding the elected leaders accountable? It’s funny how the usual liberal apologists will twist themselves in a pretzel not to call out democrat leadership, but they’ll be quick to ask a random white person to repent for the sins of others.

      1. avatar enuf says:

        You have not been paying attention.

      2. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

        Dude, you have hit the nail on the head. Most Americans would probably just prefer to be left alone. There is a bigger picture here.

    5. avatar Me says:

      “Demilitarize” your AR 15
      No more black guns. We don’t need Nazi guns only powder blue guns from now on

      You sound like a stupid liberal

    6. avatar Umm . . . says:

      The “militarized” police aren’t the problem.

      As a lifelong security professional, my problem with “law enforcement” is exactly that: there are a few dozen legitimate laws necessary to safeguard rights and the rule of law, but “law enforcement” are sworn to enforce tens of thousands.

      The “militarized” police make mistakes, but they focus on enforcing those real laws / combatting real criminals. The real problem is the majority of police who spend the majority of their time enforcing petty regulatory administrivia (and the personal grievances of neighborhood Karens) against natural-law-abiding citizens. No abstract cases could ever make this clearer than the recent real-world examples of the shutdown vs. riots.

  14. avatar Ron says:

    The gangs will become the new law.

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      In their own area. They will become buzzard food in other areas.

    2. avatar GS650G says:

      and the gangs will fight other gangs for more control. Don’t think they will be content with a few blocks and a couple of shopping strip malls for revenue. And once they are in charge how to protestors replace them?

      They don’t.

      There is this utopian vision of everyone just getting along and singing Kumbaya while they celebrate the end of The Man being in charge. All the new power brokers look like they do and say what they want to hear. So much optimism.

      And 2 weeks later the real situation comes out. This is how Cuba, Iran, VZ, and other hell holes started out.

      1. avatar PMinFl says:

        Thank you.

  15. avatar Gregolas says:

    So basically, they’re deciding to make “The Purge” reality. Idiots !

  16. avatar Hasaf says:

    This post was written for another forum, but it is an appropriate response here. It addresses the current movement to defund many police functions.

    I am currently reading the seminal book in this movement, The End of Policing by Alex S. Vitale. There is an NPR article on the book here. The, rather lengthy, subtitle of the book is, “The problem is not police training, police diversity, or police methods. The problem is the dramatic and unprecedented expansion and intensity of policing in the last forty years, a fundamental shift in the role of police in society. The problem is policing itself.”

    The Amazon summary of the book is as follows:
    [QUOTE]
    The problem is not overpolicing, it is policing itself

    Recent years have seen an explosion of protest against police brutality and repression. Among activists, journalists and politicians, the conversation about how to respond and improve policing has focused on accountability, diversity, training, and community relations. Unfortunately, these reforms will not produce results, either alone or in combination. The core of the problem must be addressed: the nature of modern policing itself.

    This book attempts to spark public discussion by revealing the tainted origins of modern policing as a tool of social control. It shows how the expansion of police authority is inconsistent with community empowerment, social justice— even public safety. Drawing on groundbreaking research from across the world, and covering virtually every area in the increasingly broad range of police work, Alex Vitale demonstrates how law enforcement has come to exacerbate the very problems it is supposed to solve.

    In contrast, there are places where the robust implementation of policing alternatives—such as legalization, restorative justice, and harm reduction—has led to a decrease in crime, spending, and injustice. The best solution to bad policing may be an end to policing.
    [/QUOTE]

    I altered the order of my read list as this seemed to be more timely now. I am not doing to discuss the book itself because I have had too many instances of people confusing the concepts of informing and advocating. Even this post is going to put me on many peoples, “Bad Guy,” list, I understand that. No, I don’t respect it, but I do understand it.

    So far I recommend the book, in large part because it is a timely look into a view that is shared by a large number of people. If you have made it this far, try to understand that there is a difference between advocation and becoming informed.

    This is an added bit, as I am now far enough onto the book to comment further. First, I still recommend it, if for nothing else, it provides illumination into the reading into the “defund” movement.

    The particulars of the “defund” movement focus on things that the police are called to do, but do poorly. They do not do it poorly due to a lack of training, they do these things poorly because of the nature of the organization, the application of state sanctioned force.

    One thing is the involvement of day to day discipline in schools. The next two deal with the use of the police as the first agency of contact for “persons with mental illness”(PMI) and the homeless. In these cases the police, and the criminal justice system, is ill-suited to deal with the underlying causes and it is more expensive, when handled by the police than other solutions that have the benefit of providing more lasting solutions.

    Again, I am not done with the book, I moved it up on my reading list because it is very timely, I still recommend it.

    1. avatar Ron says:

      A reduction in police roles isn’t what this is about, though. Everyone here can go on all day about that, and police militarization ect… until the cows come home, but this leftist movement isn’t about any of that.

      It’s part of their Maoist cultural revolution agenda. Eliminating police entirely. I know, I can already see many here still cheering this along, but this isn’t where their goal ends, either.

      It’s about *replacing* police. With something far more totalitarian. Either a “new” federalized police force, local gangs, or a combination of the two. This idea of “rethinking public safety” is code for a new, armed radical left wing group that will have the power to enforce law. Think of the brownshirts or sharia law as an example of a pseudo state entity that they dream could exist one day in America.

      Make no mistake, this leftist push against police has nothing to do with anyone’s definition of freedom, other then maybe Mao’s.

      1. avatar 9x39 says:

        I was thinking Stalinist, but Mao is close enough.

      2. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

        Bingo.

        I’ve been telling people for a couple of years now that the SJW shouting-down and “cancelling” tactics are straight out of Mao’s playbook, not Stalin’s. This is pure Cultural Revolution stuff.

        1. avatar 9x39 says:

          Hey Dyspeptic, I need to get into contact with you if you’re still in the smithing business about a specialty job on some uncommon equipment for the future (tied up in some legal foray at the moment, & funds are tight). I can setup a temp email for initial contact, but don’t want to post it until I’m sure your watching for it.

        2. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

          ak-9,
          he has his own website.
          https://dyspepticgunsmith.wordpress.com/
          try there.

        3. avatar 9x39 says:

          @tsbhoa.p.jr Thnx for the intel, much obliged.

          Reference is to a VSS kit I can’t get, but I like the AK-9 just fine. :p

        4. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

          “I’ve been telling people for a couple of years now that the SJW shouting-down and “cancelling” tactics are straight out of Mao’s playbook, not Stalin’s. This is pure Cultural Revolution stuff.”

          Early in Obama’s first term, he made a speech that referenced something about “at the same level of funding as the police”, does anyone else recall that?

  17. avatar Prndll says:

    This should be a common sense thought that people could understand across the board, regardless of race. This gets into what law enforcement was created for in the first place. Why so many people can’t grasp this is beyond me.

    It’s the same thing as AOC demanding that ICE be abolished.

    There are people that hate the US and want it destroyed. The idea of disbanding law enforcement is just another step in that effort. Part of what I find so laughable is that all these prominent democrats and their jobs pushing for this become completely useless as there is no need for government. Without cops, gun ownership becomes absolutely paramount. It all seems so self destructive and pointless.

  18. avatar GS650G says:

    Chicago is already experimenting with reduced police presence. Been going on for years.

    1. avatar J Star says:

      Truth. And every weekend they post news stories about the shooting totals, like they are proud of it or something.

      1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

        there is only one reliable source for the true totals that are not affected by compstat. it is used primarily as a gambling entertainment site.

        i’ll take the over.

        1. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

          The Hey, Jackass web page? 🙂

  19. avatar Dennis says:

    If it weren’t for the good people left in the city, I’d say go for it! I predict within a month or two they’d be DEMANDING that Trump send help.

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      I would be demanding Trump *not* send help. Let the guilty pay the bills to clean up their own mess. *I* did not demand the police be disbanded, why should I pay for the very predictable consequences.

  20. avatar Shire-man says:

    Well, once they clear up the single digit annual cop on black person deaths they’ll be free to focus on the four digit black on black deaths.

    1. avatar GS650G says:

      Uh nope. That would be considered racist. not gonna happen.

      1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

        even though the totals for non- darks are four times higher.

  21. avatar enuf says:

    A website about defunding/replacing the Minneapolis PD with something else:
    https://www.mpd150.com/

    I do not agree with disbanding police forces. I see it as yet another typical response in our country where we use the trash heap for an institution in place of fixing its failings, then pretend to fixed those failings. We did the same thing to the mental health system and a hell of a lot of funding and infrastructure beginning in the late 1950’s and finishing in the 1970’s/80’s.

    Of course there is plenty wrong with policing in the USA. When one or more of those bad behaviors occurs, all cops are harmed by it. We have a system where public servants may be seen as welcomed and valued heroes one minute and brutal animals the next.

    To fix that the answer is not to toss the very existence of police agencies on history’s scrap heap. The solution is to study the causes of brutality and train it out of the police rank and file.

    The 8 minutes 46 seconds of an officer’s knee on the neck of an unresistanting and compliant suspect is not the cause of all this protest, all the rage. It is simply a glaring trigger moment releasing the pent up rage of countless examples of bad policing.Of officers who escalate rather than deescalate. Of officers using tactics and methods far more forceful than the situation calls for.

    We should not disband policing, we should fix it. Unhappily the greater likelihood is we will leave it unchanged while adding additional layers of confused arguments, confused bureaucracy atop the existing mess.

    What will accomplish this path of making matters worse is well under way. The political right wing will, and is already, seeking to toughen police responses while the political left is seeking to do away with same. Both are wrong headed in their extremism and both will do their unkind share of making our troubles worse.

    That is what the mental illness of Party’ism in America in recent generations. It amplifies all disagreements, allows and encourages problems to fester and damages the Union.

    1. avatar Dude says:

      “The solution is to study the causes of brutality and train it out of the police rank and file.”

      This is always the solution. Look at the ACTUAL data, and respond accordingly. Unfortunately, the current narrative being pushed on us by the unhinged Left is: this is because of white supremacy and evil republicans. The only reason they are pushing that narrative is so people will have an emotional response instead of a logical response. They want to make sure the mob doesn’t learn the truth and come for them. They are pushing division in order to gain power.

      1. avatar enuf says:

        I agree with you up to a point. Not all left wing are on that bandwagon, only the loudest voices and the news media that is always attracted to the loudest voices.

        There are also voices on the right that deny the root causes and would bring more force down on the problems. Only making it all worse.

        It takes at least two sides to fuck things up. In this thing we have those two sides, they despise each other and have factions within to make it even more complicated.

        1. avatar Dude says:

          “It takes at least two sides to fuck things up.”

          You mean like in Minneapolis that has been under democrat control for 50 years? You mean like in Baltimore when everyone in charge from top to bottom was black, yet it was white supremacy that was supposedly the problem?

          I’m glad to see you call out the news media, but how are people supposed to learn the truth with the fake political messaging out there? How will the left ever be held accountable when 90% of the media is constantly running cover for them?

        2. avatar Enuf is enuf says:

          Im with dude. You live under a rock. Come out into the light where responsible adults live and realize the truth.

  22. avatar Justin says:

    In the long run they will not only defund the police but the local government as well. Once businesses are unable to operate in these environments due to lack of a safe way to do so, the tax revenues will dry up. This will force the local governments cut services that are needed by the same people who demanded the police be removed. As more people flee (vote with thier feet) the tax base will shrink even faster forcing more and more measures by the local and likely state governments to keep people from burning down everything in sight. I really can’t see any good outcomes from the present course of actions.

    1. avatar SoCalJack says:

      My debbie-downer predictions in the short-to-mid term: replacing police with community/youth programs will yield minimal benefits, blood shed and unreported crimes will increase, private security will increase, city population and crime will migrate to surrounding areas will increase. At first, the city and media will try to hide it’s failing truth citing growing pains, but mid-to long term, the city will socially and economically die as they try to re-instate some type of policing.

      1. avatar Dude says:

        You forgot the most important part: Left wing organizations will be flush with cash they took from the police budget, creating more dedicated soldiers to the cause.

        1. avatar Ing says:

          Yep. Where else do you think that $150 million the city of L.A. earmarked for “dismantling racism” is going to go?

          The rank-and-file progressives are dumber than a box of rocks (there’s a good reason why I call them progtards), but the organizers are smart; they’ll take all that money and make an even bigger anti-American machine, with themselves at the center of it pulling the levers of power. When the next crisis comes, they’ll be the ones with the popular “answers,” all of which (surprise!) will put more money and power in their pockets.

          Wash, rinse, repeat.

      2. avatar GS650G says:

        MLSP will basically turn into Detroit.

  23. avatar former water walker says:

    Oh well…vote libtard-get libtard. Quit covering for unstable Iraq&Afghanistan vets. And quit having an occupying force in America. You’re effed regardless😕

  24. avatar DerryM says:

    Along with disbanding Police Departments, Black Lives Matter is, reportedly, planning to form armed “Militia/Patrol Groups” to patrol and defend Black neighborhoods. So, the rest of us will need to form our own armed “Militia/Patrol Groups” to patrol and defend our neighborhoods? Is the net effect/intent of all this to divide the races into segregated armed factions? I do not see how this can end well.*

    *Except maybe it puts the end to the Gun Control movement once and for all.

    1. avatar GS650G says:

      Don’t think for a minute they won’t use gun bans on the unfavored groups.

    2. avatar Dude says:

      Derry,

      I’ve read a few articles on BLM getting people to train them to defend themselves. I see no problem with this taken at face value. Actually, I welcome it. However, in the articles I read, the enemy they are training to defend themselves against are the police. They said they are going to patrol their neighborhoods to look out for the police. Apparently they are oblivious to the ACTUAL data of criminals that are wreaking havoc on black communities. This is what happens when the fake news media pushes a false narrative; some people actually believe it.

      1. avatar LarryinTX says:

        If they ever actually reach a position of having these BLM militia patrols, I’d bet they *will* be concentrating on confronting the police, since if they attempt to confront the actual problem, they will get their asses shot off.

      2. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

        I’m a white guy. I make it my modus opperondi to only sneak into black neighborhoods and rob them of their stuff.

    3. avatar tdiinva says:

      These “security forces” already exist. They are called gangs. The inner cities are ungoverned areas that all ready have private security. What people here call senseless violence isn’t. It is the local Baron enforcing his concept of justice. Why do you think faux Libertarians support gangs? They see them as the vanguard of anarcho-capitalism.

  25. avatar Sam in Ohio says:

    If everyone could live by the simple rules of John Books (aka “The Shootist”), this might work. Of course, we know people won’t and that’s going to leave the fine people of Minneapolis with a choice: Anarchy or Vigilantes should they go down the path they propose.

    1. avatar enuf says:

      Good movie, I still watch it from time to time.

      Curious thing about John Wayne, he understood how much his movie image mattered to his fans and career. But he was a very different version in real life. Well read on many subjects with a personal library of good size. He enjoyed challenging conversation with friends having different politics. Wayne loved a difficult game of chess and would annoy opponents who would not give him their best game by cheating until they called him on it. Loved deep sea fishing and time on his boat much more than riding horses. Could care less about friends seeing him bald, but wore the hair piece in public because that was the image fans expected.

      John Wayne was a much more intelligent, well read, educated and open minded man than his image commonly credits him for. Reading biographies of the many only improves him in my eyes, and I’ve always liked him.

      1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

        plus that whole marion thing.

        1. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

          You’ve heard Jonny Cash’s “A Boy Named Sue”… 😉

  26. avatar bryan1980 says:

    This is too funny coming from people who want to disarm civilians. Of course, the mayor doesn’t want to disband it, because they’re the ones who protect his sorry ass. Oh, how I love seeing lefty politicians squirm!

    To me, a good solution would be to disband the municipal police departments, and let the county sheriff’s department handle public safety for all cities within the county. All of the taxes that go to funding each municipal department can go right to the sheriff’s department. That way, if enough people don’t like how law enforcement is handling things in their county, they can vote in a new sheriff.

    1. avatar J Star says:

      This is my stance. The sheriff is an elected official. They should be running law enforcement county wide. This has the benefit of removing the confusing jurisdictions AND the sheriff answers directly to the people and not the mayor and city/town council.

      Then we can get rid of no-knock warrants, warrants served at 2AM, etc.

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        Thank you. This has been my exact argument for the same. A Municipal Police Chief must answer to the Mayor, but a Sheriff does not, as his “boss” is the People of his county/township who elected him.

  27. avatar kap says:

    let them defund then watch the judge Parker justice.

  28. avatar Prndll says:

    If you are a police officer in a Democrat controlled city/state, you have a choice to make.

    If you are a civilian you need to understand that removing cops does NOT make you safe.

  29. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    This is screamingly funny:

    https://twitter.com/EddieZipperer/status/1269951088964370432

    This is a made-for-Trump campaign advert right there.

    1. avatar enuf says:

      Yup, the “Stupid” is strong in that woman.

      It is not “Privilege”, it is fear of being murdered by some thug willing to bust into a home when he knows people are inside. There can be few more dangerous and frightening crimes, and it has nothing to do with anyone’s “Privilege”.

  30. avatar Wally1 says:

    I am all for it, go ahead, defund police but there is an old saying ” Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it”. if they do this it will have disaster written all over it. All these libtards living in cities think they are making headway with these protests, nothing could be farther from the truth. The rest of the nation (those that matter) are watching. Ms. Candice Owen said it best. If you haven’t watched her video, you need to. Sometimes the truth is just that, the truth.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      I watched Ms. Owens’ vid yesterday. Excellent.

  31. avatar Jeff says:

    I am all for removing police presence in the large democratic cities. If people defend themselves more criminals will be shot instead of arrested. The number of criminals will go down quite quickly. There is a downside to this though. Gangs will take over their neighborhoods and institute draconian policies. Let these cities get what they want and watch them become warzones.

  32. avatar Dan W says:

    They say they want community policing. That’s called a Lynch mob.

  33. avatar SpecialEd says:

    Pass the popcorn, please.

  34. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    I have been saying the police should be disarmed in blue states and blue cities. The only way to get some people to wake up is to let them destroy themselves. Let them destroy the entire city. I don’t care. Minneapolis is a majority WHITE CITY. Let them destroy themselves.
    But no taxpayer money to rebuild. “F” these people.

    I like the police. But I think a criminal cop should be shot dead. Just like any criminal. But you won’t hear a so called “Libertarian” say that.

    Candace Owens BROKE THE INTERNET OVER GEORGE FLOYD RANT video 17 minutes long. Officer Brandon Tatum is a good guy. I’m sure there are some gun owners, white and black, who don’t want to hear the truth.

    1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

      solid t- shirt.

      1. avatar Geoff "Guns. LOTS of guns..." PR says:

        “The Teflon Don”

        Who sells it??? 😉

  35. avatar Dave says:

    Good luck with that no police plan. If any town goes through with that, you’ll need buckets to catch the blood in.

  36. avatar NORDNEG says:

    You know I said the same thing about what would happen if you disbanded the police yesterday as most people here are talking about, just changed the word people to turds & the story was almost the same thing that people here are saying, & in reply I got some guy who disagreed with my statement, not going to say who , but I haven’t seen him post anything here today.
    I’m a believer of open carry for the whole country…
    ……PERIOD……

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Great plan! We should pass a Constitutional Amendment! For what it should look like, see 2A.

  37. avatar Wild Bill says:

    Interesting, have you seen, “Solve Institutional Racism While You Wait. Should Have Asked Me Sooner.” from Scott Adams?

  38. avatar Grim Reaper says:

    Consider FACTS:

    Black males make up about 8% of the U.S. population but commit 53% of all the murders in the U.S.

    In 2018, there were ~4,800 African-Americans killed – 93% of them were killed by fellow African-Americans.

    “Five one-thousandths (0.005) of one percent (1%) of the interactions of police officers with black people end up in the death of a suspect,” Bishop E.W. Jackson states.

    “Five-thousand black men die every single year in black-on-black crime.” In that light, Jackson asks: “How many bodies do you have to step over to get to the one that you think is important only because a police officer was involved?”

    Still waiting for BLM to start the demonstrations in Chicago after a typical weekend of mayhem when 60-70 blacks get shot. Where are the words of condemnation and sorrow from “Black Lives Matter”, the “we can’t breathe” movement, Obama, Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson over the fact that members of their own race are summarily executing each other?

    (Bishop Earl Walker Jackson Sr., comments above, is an African American, Protestant minister.)

    ———————————————————

    Former President Barack Obama shared his “despair” about police brutality and racial tensions… BO urged protesters from coast to coast angry over the death of George Floyd to show the same enthusiasm for VOTING that that they have for outraged activism. [It’s all about dems getting 90 to 99% of the black VOTE, after all – get it?]

    Rev. Sharpton urged others to join in the “we can’t breathe” movement. “We must act in a way to get justice, and to get fairness.” “We’re not asking for a favor,” he said. Al Sharpton writes, COVID-19 is ravaging us, and yet systemic racism has been tightening its grip on all of our throats for years. “The reason we could never be who we wanted and dreamed to be, is you kept your knee on our neck,” Sharpton said, adding later: “What happened to Floyd happens every day in this country …

    ALL those demented fools keep baying to “CUT ALL FUNDING TO COPS”, will sing a different tune, soon enough, when THEY ARE BEING mugged, raped, or seeing their homes burgled… But it happening, no cops, in LA, NY, Chicago or Blue States, no reason to care much. 2020 GOP winners can perhaps come in and rebuild everything later on. Rome burned several times too and this is no different; when you have barbarians in country and storming the gates/border it’s going to happen.

    1. Former President Barack Obama shared his “despair” about police brutality and racial tensions… BO urged protesters from coast to coast angry over the death of George Floyd to show the same enthusiasm for VOTING that that they have for outraged activism. [It’s all about dems getting 90 to 99% of the black VOTE, after all – get it?]

      How has voting worked in places like Chicago, New Orleans, and East St. Louis?

  39. avatar Ignorance will help them destroy themselves 🖕💩👜🐀 says:

    Give them what they want, Darwin’s law will sort things out!

  40. avatar American Patriot says:

    That’s what the left actually wants to begin with. The pawns just don’t know it!

  41. avatar Olympic Snorch says:

    Alright about 50% concern trolling including the original poster, 50% honest contempt in here. Charming.

    1. avatar Debbie W. says:

      Snorch…Your mealy mouth disdain for the POTUS makes you a dirty diaper democRat lintlicker.

  42. avatar Ralph says:

    I’m in favor of giving people what they want. So if that’s what they want, let them have it.

  43. avatar Debbie W. says:

    Recall how fake news and pompous democRats slandered, libeled and bashed protesters carrying in VA and MI…Both states with sicko democRat governors.
    Now look how democRats have kissed the behinds of looters and arsonists. Give them something, anything so they won’t destroy the entire city. Solution? Cops must go. Lowlife looters and arsonists can stay but pretty please don’t break nothing.
    What is not getting press is how fed up the country is with the media and democRats…To be specific that’s fake news and lily white democRat race baiters.

  44. avatar Hannibal says:

    National and local polls show that most black people distrust the police or believe the latter treat minorities unfairly.

    They ALSO show that black people want more police, rather than less. And they want it by a large margin over white and hispanic people.

    Probably because most of the people calling for defunding etc are either too young to be responsible for a family or in the case of white “allies” can go home to a safe neighborhood where people don’t shoot each other over a crack pipe or shoes.

  45. avatar Eng says:

    Community policing? So like a neighborhood watch? So like George Zimmerman? Great plan!

    Yeah, take a hard job which may have some shortcomings in terms of training and oversight and replace it with no training and no oversight. Take a job where it is hard to attract and retain good employees and make it impossible to do so.

    Sounds pretty dumb, but that’s what Minneapolis voted for. They seem to be getting the level of service they deserve.

  46. avatar Chris Morton says:

    Call me eccentric, but I can’t help but think that there’s something in between the police acting like the Japanese in China and no police at all. Needless to say, the police unions and Black Lives Matter disagree.

  47. avatar Ross Neal says:

    These poor ignorant people. The blind leading the blind.

  48. avatar ChoseDeath says:

    🤷‍♂️

  49. 1. #BlackLivesMatter
    2. Police are racist sociopaths who habitually gun down unarmed black men.
    3. The police (but not the general public) should be allowed to have assault weapons.

    Pick AT MOST two.

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