Little bastid is a public nuisance if you ask me! Take his arse to court, and sue him for everything he’s got!
sue the cop or cupid?
cupid.
if you can not figure out why……………..
that bastard is why dacian, minor and the limey are here.🤣😂
I can’t blame them on cupid.
drunken sailors at closing time maybe ?
Link:
Yeah, but “that bastard” is also why YOU are here. (Chuckle.)
You know this high capacity thing has bothered me. Especially the definition. In 1979 I enlisted in the U.S. Army. When we drew magazines they were in large bins. Read ‘card board boxes” They were mixed Colt manufactured 20 rd mags and after market Adventure Line 30s, If I recall correctly. Sgt. Sanchez and Gilliard, were my drill sergeants When we drew magazines, they began to yell, ‘” Twenties only!” We all wanted 30s. They looked cooler. Cooler doesn’t keep you alive. Both were Viet Nam combat vets. They said 20s were more reliable. After a little range time I had to agree. After all. I wanted to look cool too. My question is: Doesn’t that makee 20 rd magazine the standard capacity magazine? Wouldn’t that make 30 rd magazines “high capacity”? I’ve got an ass load of both, but I’ve always preferred 20s. Even the Mag-Puls. That’s all I own. About 50. So, a little experience.Except an HK-33/93 25 rd. That is the perfect .223/.556 magazine capacity. Pretty good carbine too. I hate my 35 rd Galil magazines. Too long. The carbine makes up for it. A Galil shoots like nothing else. So a small trade off.
I think the shorter 5.56 Valmet mags should work fine in the Galil.
Cross, they do. So do .556 AK mags. That wasn’t my point. My point was, mag capacity is over rated. Has been by the uninitiated since about 1965.
“Wouldn’t that make 30 rd magazines “high capacity”?”
for an AR platform 30 round magazine is standard capacity not high capacity and greater than 30 round magazine would be high capacity.
for a pistol that’s designed around 15 round magazines a 30 round magazine would be high capacity where 15 round magazine would be standard capacity.
however, ‘common use for lawful purposes’ also factors in so a high capacity magazine is also standard capacity.
In other words, any capacity beyond what the platform was designed around, and that around which the platform was designed, in common use for lawful purposes is standard capacity and not high capacity.
this confusion of terms by anti-gun is deliberate intended to appeal to phobia and emotion.
the 30 round magazine standard was set by the U.S. government through the military adoption. As a matter of fact in historical requirement, tradition, text, and intent and the 2A, laid out by the founders, civilians are allowed arms on par with the military excluding unsually dangerous and unusual (by current law). That includes ammunition and ‘feeding devices’ also known as magazines. Industry responded, and we have 30 round standard capacity magazine for the AR and other fire arms with platforms designed with their use as standard.
original capacity of the AR-15 was 25 rounds that was dropped to 20 at the army’s request. keep in mind the competition, the AK already had a 30 round capay.
Aaron, I think you may be correct, but I have never seen a 25 rd AR magazine. I vaguely remember hearing about them. Imagine what they could be worth. Academic. 20 rd Mag-Pul. Thank you very much.
“It’s also ideal for shooters who prefer the reliability of the straight-body magazines the AR-15 was originally designed to use but want 5 more rounds than you get from the standard 20-round mags”
“5 more rounds than you get from the standard 20-round mags”
Liar49er
“When the AR-15 first hit the market in the early 1960s, it used 20-round detachable magazines although 30-round magazines were soon the standard.”
“…My question is: Doesn’t that makee 20 rd magazine the standard capacity magazine?..”
Then? yes. Now, no. We used 20rnd mags for qualifying in ’82’ at Ft. Benning. First duty station at Ft. Hood we were issued 30rd mags and everywhere I PCSed to after that.
I find 20s are a little more convenient when shooting prone, but other than that? Both they and 30s are “standard” capacities for the firearm.
My Beta-Mag makes 100 rounds standard capacity.
l like the 40 round PMags if I’m standing and shooting.
They have been 100% reliable.
It’s easier to load up a bunch at home and then go shooting.
All of the metal military surplus mags I have seen have been 20 rounds.
I use 30s and 40s because I’m usually target shooting.
If I had to lay down and shoot at distance I would buy 20 or 10 rounders.
There is no such thing as a “high capacity” magazine unless it’s a drum.
O. You tote it.
.40, you prove my point. The AR platform was designed around a 20 round magazine. If it wasn’t history, it is common knowledge. Very common. Every pic I’ve ever seen of Stoner with an AR had a 20 rd magazine in it. Not saying 30 rd mags should be illegal. Even defined as “high capacity”. But, if you want to define an AR magazine as “standard capacity”, historically I would have to say it’s 20 rds. That said, I can touch an AR now. It has a 20 rd Mag Pul magazine in it. It’s loaded with Winchester Ballistic Silvertip. I live in town now so I have to think about overpenatration. I keep a 91 loaded,with 7.62 NATO ball but… Please don’t bring up shotguns. They’re for bird hunting. I concede they will kill you. Bob told me about a patricide he worked a couple of days ago. Son shot Dad at close range with 00 buckshot. It was effective. Shotguns do work. Even this AR might be able to get through a magazine without a malfunction. I know that I know everyone in LE around here, but they will still take my weapons into evidence. Who gives a shit about an AR? I’d cry harder over my 181 series Mini-14. The Mini-14 stays in the safe. The AR is now the ready rifle. Because, really, who cares about an AR-15?
“The AR platform was designed around a 20 round magazine.”
It wasn’t designed around a 20 round magazine actually.
Basically, the origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle and as a civilian rifle for game hunting it was thought at the time that industry would make a 5 ‘or more’ round detachable magazine for it because some of the semi-auto hunting rifles of the time could hold at least 5 rounds.
The military originally wanted to use a 25 round magazine but then a 20 round magazine was thought to be what was needed so 20 round magazine was initially adopted. The platform its self though was simply designed around a detachable magazine with no particular capacity in mind and it was the military that said 20 rounds. Later the military wanted more more to match the ‘enemy’ AK magazine capacity which was 30 rounds, so the U.S. military 30 round magazine came to be and it was adopted as the standard issue magazine by the U.S. military. And then the ‘designed around’ became a standard 30 round magazine in the military because it became issued with the military rifle when ammo was issued – the ‘designed around’ became synonymous with the issue as a standard not the other way around. Thus the U.S. government through the military made the 30 round magazine a standard capacity magazine.
In historical requirement, tradition, text, and intent and the 2A, laid out by the founders, civilians are allowed arms on par with the military excluding unusually dangerous and unusual (by current law). That includes ammunition and ‘feeding devices’ also known as magazines. Industry responded, and we have 30 round standard capacity magazine for the civilian grade MSR and other fire arms with platforms designed with their use as standard capacity magazine.
I’m not sure the AR15 was designed for the civilian market.
Initially the AR 15 was designed as an automatic weapon, they would have very little popularity in the civilian market in 1959.
The original salesman’s samples were full auto:
“For those of us who take fondly to the black rifles, the most famous of all may arguably be the Colt ArmaLite AR-15 Serial Number 000106, also known as “The Coconut Rifle.” This particular gun is credited for the adoption of this weapon system eventually becoming the primary service weapon of the United States Military for almost 50 years.
The mystique of this special rifle begins its journey from Hartford, Connecticut to Baltimore, Maryland on February 17, 1960 and ends up in Fairfield, Maine in 2011 after traveling around the globe more than two times.”
“I’m not sure the AR15 was designed for the civilian market.”
I am.
“Initially the AR 15 was designed as an automatic weapon”
not true.
what the military got was what was designed for the military, after the inception of the AR-15 as a civilian rifle. The origin of the rifle though was as a civilian rifle which was semi-auto.
Basically, the origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle and as a civilian rifle.
The reason the military AR-15 originally used 20 round magazines and the military selected them was because industry was already producing reliable 20 round magazines for the AR-10 by that time and all they needed to do was scale it down for the 5.56. The military initially wanted 25 round magazines but they also wanted to put the rifle in service quickly so instead of waiting for industry to redesign and scale up capacity and then testing of a larger capacity of 25 rounds, it was quicker and cheaper to just re-scale what industry was already producing so 20 round magazines were adopted. Later the military wanted 30 round mags, and industry responded with a capacity of 30 rounds.
I agree with you. I would add that there were production and design issues as well as US Ordinance Department’s infamous track record of being cheap b*stards as well.
20 rounds is the limit in a straight walled magazine to reliably feed. when they went beyond 20, reliable feeding became an issue due to cartridge geometry in either caliber as there’s a limit to how much the follower can cam in the magazine’s formed anti-tilt channel.
It was far cheaper and faster to produce a straight walled magazine than a curved magazine at that time. A metal curved magazine requires several more steps and additional tooling to produce. Side walls on a straight magazine can be folded by the simple brake method, whereas curved side walls required dies, a press, and several steps to form. In the 50’s/60’s that was a costly piece of equipment for a shop to invest in.
Stoner may have used the M14 magazine as a guide/template in developing the AR10, the M14 mag requires some modifications to work in an AR10
The distinction is that the AR’s feed system was designed around the template of magazine production limits, not the magazine itself, as it doesnt use the original M14 template.
There are guns that were designed specifically for magazines, but the AR isn’t one of them. Guns like the British Sten and Polish Blyskawica were both designed from the beginning to use German MP40 magazines.
I’ve seen the claim that the AR15 was designed initially for the civilian market, but the evidence seems to indicate otherwise:
“In the year 1957 The US Army requested the Armalite Division of the Fairchild Aircraft Corp to develop a rifle of .22 caliber, lightweight, select-fire, and capable of penetrating a standard steel helmet at 500 meters.
Eugene Stoner, then a designer at Armalite, began to develop this rifle, based on his earlier design – the 7.62mm AR-10 automatic rifle. At the same time, experts at Sierra Bullets and Remington, in conjunction with Armalite, began to develop a new .22 caliber cartridge, based on the .222 Remington and .222 Remington Magnum hunting cartridges.“
what you are seeing is true as far as the military rifle is concerned. but that was the design for the military.
the origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle. and in context with the military version what the military got was a redesign of the civilian version for which the complete design was not ready for prototype and that is the design Stoner started working on for the military and its derivation from the AR-10 is because the civilian version was based on the AR-10 and a military rifle from that made sense because the platform was sound and worked. it was the quickest route to a military rifle.
“Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle“
Citation or source?
So only on the “drawing board” and no prototypes?
The record shows that Eugene Stoner developed the AR5 and AR7 as survival rifles for the military, and the AR10 as an infantry weapon, but I have seen no civilian weapons designed by Eugene Stoner.
“The Army soon charged Stoner with modifying the AR-10 into the AR-15. This would use the smaller .223 Remington cartridge, though it was somewhat enlarged for Army SPCS. In addition to becoming “America’s rifle,” the AR-15 eventually became the M16, which became the standard-issue service rifle for the United States Army in 1969.
The AR-15 was developed because of the changing needs of the U.S. Continental Army Command (CONARC). New parameter challenges were set out for firearm companies in the beginning of 1957. Some months later, Stoner gave a live fire demonstration of what was still known as a modified AR-10, but would soon rocket to fame as the AR-15.“
“Family of AR-15 Inventor Says He Never Intended the Gun For Civilian Use
Eugene Stoner, the inventor of the AR-15, never even owned the controversial rifle.
By Rachel Dicker
June 16, 2016”
“Family of AR-15 Inventor Says He Never Intended the Gun For Civilian Use”
“Family” said.
That’s true and not ttue, his intent. His interest was in military only rifles. But Armalite wanted a civilian rifle, he worked for Armalite.
Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle.
He never intended his military design for civilian use, and it isn’t in civilian use just as he intended. His intent was that his military rifle was not for civilian use.
“but I have seen no civilian weapons designed by Eugene Stoner.”
That’s true. Because his interest was in military rifles so any of his rifles that did make it into the world were military focused and that’s the reason you “have seen no civilian weapons designed by Eugene Stoner.”
Like I said…
The origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite (Stoner) set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle. and in context with the military version what the military got was a redesign of the civilian version for which the complete design was not ready for prototype and that is the design Stoner started working on for the military and its derivation from the AR-10 is because the civilian version was based on the AR-10 and a military rifle from that made sense because the platform was sound and worked. it was the quickest route to a military rifle.
What you saw was a military rifle AR-15, the origins for which was as a civilian AR-15 semi auto rifle. Today in the civilian world we have basically a continuation and evolution of that civilian semi-auto rifle origin, the cosmetics and specs for which are influenced by the military design that began life as a civilian design.
Stoners intent is fulfilled, his AR-15 military rifle is not the civilian MSR rifle we have today.
I’ll tell you what Stoner told me many years ago before he passed away. I just happen to have met him by chance many years ago. I asked him about the AR-15 – he told me; Armalite wanted a civilian rifle, a version of the AR-10. He objected because he wanted to only do military rifles and thought that should be where Armalite was focused. But Armalite insisted it wanted to appeal to the civilian market because there was rising demand for ‘rifles that looked military’. So he suggested they do a rifle based on the AR-10 so he could keep working on a ‘military’ looking style rifle at least, and he had wanted to do a military rifle based on the AR-10 anyway, and he already knew the military was looking for a new rifle. So he started working on the civilian AR-15 design as Armalite wanted. But it just so happens the military need became known when the military approached Armalite – as the design for the civilian version was almost done. So he took what he had with the civilian design and used it to design a rifle for the military.
The AR-15 origin is as a civilian rifle.
Oh, and Stoner did design a civilian gun, it was a pistol. It was the The Colt 2000 (AKA ‘All American 2000’). A semiautomatic 9 mm manufactured by Colt. It was intended for two demographics – civilian law enforcement and the general civilian market.
Reed Knight (of Knights Armament) and Eugene Stoner (who was working for Knight Armament when the Colt 2000 was introduced) – worked on the project together.
The Colt 2000 was introduced at the 1990 Shooting Hunting and Outdoor Trade Show (AKA SHOT Show). The gun was a failure, but its still a prized collectors item.
Standards can and do change over time. Lap belts and three speed transmissions used to be the standard. We don’t wring our hands over that changing.
GF
I agree if they take my $350 home built ar oh well. I’d miss the sig red dot that’s on it more than the rifle.
now my favorite fal or ak different story
The people of New York to include every member of law enforcement are very used to a certain way of living. It is a kind of insanity that feeds on itself and gets perpetuated by city officials. Most of them just cannot see that there is a better way. Rampant drug use doesn’t make things any easier. You cannot just dump 2A and someone like Trump onto societies like that. They will reject it. Chicago is no different. The mere fact that someone has a gun in New York is enough for an arrest. Which is completely ridiculous. It’s just as crazy as a citizen getting arrested for having a thirty round magazine. To the people in that state, there are places in this country where you can buy 30 round AR15 magazines right off the shelf as if were a pack of gum. Something that should be looked at as perfectly normal and acceptable. It is a shame that New York can’t be that way too. The truth is that places like that have such a big problem with all this simply because they have such a big problem with it. There would be no issues if they would just let people be free and stop hassling everyone. But keep voting Democrat and nothing will change except for maybe for the worse.
Prndll. I’ve been to NY a few times. The city and upstate. I carried a concealed 1911 every time. It wasn’t very hard. I’ve said it before. Fuck the government.
So just what is a high capacity magazine or standard capacity magazine? By who’s standard?
My basic CC weapon is an old 1911. It came with a couple 7 round magazines. So is the now popular 8 round magazine considered high capacity? Or is the para ordinance 14 round version of the 1911 high capacity? It uses a double stack set up commonly used in 9mm weapons.
When I purchased my AR-15 many years ago, it came with 2 20 round magazines and 2 30 round magazines. So, which is standard? My AR10 came with a 10 round magazine and a 20 round magazine. The Garand conversion I have uses standard 20 round BAR magazines. But was originally designed to use a fixed 8 round enboc clip fed magazine. The rifle was altered/converted some time in the 1950’s before my father purchased it.
All the concern over magazine size, or firearm type, or cosmetic features does nothing to limit criminal misuse of firearms. Nor will any laws we could write prevent anyone from committing whatever crime or act of violence. All we can do is exact retribution upon those who commit the crimes and do our best to catch, try and convict/imprison those found guilty of said acts of violence.
They are all just magazines. Some hold more or less rounds than others.
But magazines they are, indeed.
SUPREME COURT WIN in Oregon, Magazine Ban Not Going Into Effect.
5 Reasons Why You Need “High-Capacity” Magazines.
Just a note to TTAG about your moderation software.
Several of my last comments have been flagged. There is no profanity, threats or personal attacks in those comments.
You all need to clean that crap program up, or I’ll take my marbles and go play elsewhere.
Cite? More like, drag away to jail.
Little bastid is a public nuisance if you ask me! Take his arse to court, and sue him for everything he’s got!
sue the cop or cupid?
cupid.
if you can not figure out why……………..
that bastard is why dacian, minor and the limey are here.🤣😂
I can’t blame them on cupid.
drunken sailors at closing time maybe ?
Link:
Yeah, but “that bastard” is also why YOU are here. (Chuckle.)
You know this high capacity thing has bothered me. Especially the definition. In 1979 I enlisted in the U.S. Army. When we drew magazines they were in large bins. Read ‘card board boxes” They were mixed Colt manufactured 20 rd mags and after market Adventure Line 30s, If I recall correctly. Sgt. Sanchez and Gilliard, were my drill sergeants When we drew magazines, they began to yell, ‘” Twenties only!” We all wanted 30s. They looked cooler. Cooler doesn’t keep you alive. Both were Viet Nam combat vets. They said 20s were more reliable. After a little range time I had to agree. After all. I wanted to look cool too. My question is: Doesn’t that makee 20 rd magazine the standard capacity magazine? Wouldn’t that make 30 rd magazines “high capacity”? I’ve got an ass load of both, but I’ve always preferred 20s. Even the Mag-Puls. That’s all I own. About 50. So, a little experience.Except an HK-33/93 25 rd. That is the perfect .223/.556 magazine capacity. Pretty good carbine too. I hate my 35 rd Galil magazines. Too long. The carbine makes up for it. A Galil shoots like nothing else. So a small trade off.
I think the shorter 5.56 Valmet mags should work fine in the Galil.
Cross, they do. So do .556 AK mags. That wasn’t my point. My point was, mag capacity is over rated. Has been by the uninitiated since about 1965.
“Wouldn’t that make 30 rd magazines “high capacity”?”
for an AR platform 30 round magazine is standard capacity not high capacity and greater than 30 round magazine would be high capacity.
for a pistol that’s designed around 15 round magazines a 30 round magazine would be high capacity where 15 round magazine would be standard capacity.
however, ‘common use for lawful purposes’ also factors in so a high capacity magazine is also standard capacity.
In other words, any capacity beyond what the platform was designed around, and that around which the platform was designed, in common use for lawful purposes is standard capacity and not high capacity.
this confusion of terms by anti-gun is deliberate intended to appeal to phobia and emotion.
the 30 round magazine standard was set by the U.S. government through the military adoption. As a matter of fact in historical requirement, tradition, text, and intent and the 2A, laid out by the founders, civilians are allowed arms on par with the military excluding unsually dangerous and unusual (by current law). That includes ammunition and ‘feeding devices’ also known as magazines. Industry responded, and we have 30 round standard capacity magazine for the AR and other fire arms with platforms designed with their use as standard.
original capacity of the AR-15 was 25 rounds that was dropped to 20 at the army’s request. keep in mind the competition, the AK already had a 30 round capay.
Aaron, I think you may be correct, but I have never seen a 25 rd AR magazine. I vaguely remember hearing about them. Imagine what they could be worth. Academic. 20 rd Mag-Pul. Thank you very much.
Brownells has them for retro builds.
https://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/ar-15-25-rd-straight-body-steel-magazine-prod124968.aspx
Brownell’s description:
“It’s also ideal for shooters who prefer the reliability of the straight-body magazines the AR-15 was originally designed to use but want 5 more rounds than you get from the standard 20-round mags”
“5 more rounds than you get from the standard 20-round mags”
Liar49er
“When the AR-15 first hit the market in the early 1960s, it used 20-round detachable magazines although 30-round magazines were soon the standard.”
https://www.guns.com/news/2020/11/18/magazines-standard-capacity-v-large-capacity
“The standard magazine capacity for an AR15 is 30 rounds.”
https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/445-ar15-magazines-223556
“…My question is: Doesn’t that makee 20 rd magazine the standard capacity magazine?..”
Then? yes. Now, no. We used 20rnd mags for qualifying in ’82’ at Ft. Benning. First duty station at Ft. Hood we were issued 30rd mags and everywhere I PCSed to after that.
I find 20s are a little more convenient when shooting prone, but other than that? Both they and 30s are “standard” capacities for the firearm.
My Beta-Mag makes 100 rounds standard capacity.
l like the 40 round PMags if I’m standing and shooting.
They have been 100% reliable.
It’s easier to load up a bunch at home and then go shooting.
All of the metal military surplus mags I have seen have been 20 rounds.
I use 30s and 40s because I’m usually target shooting.
If I had to lay down and shoot at distance I would buy 20 or 10 rounders.
There is no such thing as a “high capacity” magazine unless it’s a drum.
O. You tote it.
.40, you prove my point. The AR platform was designed around a 20 round magazine. If it wasn’t history, it is common knowledge. Very common. Every pic I’ve ever seen of Stoner with an AR had a 20 rd magazine in it. Not saying 30 rd mags should be illegal. Even defined as “high capacity”. But, if you want to define an AR magazine as “standard capacity”, historically I would have to say it’s 20 rds. That said, I can touch an AR now. It has a 20 rd Mag Pul magazine in it. It’s loaded with Winchester Ballistic Silvertip. I live in town now so I have to think about overpenatration. I keep a 91 loaded,with 7.62 NATO ball but… Please don’t bring up shotguns. They’re for bird hunting. I concede they will kill you. Bob told me about a patricide he worked a couple of days ago. Son shot Dad at close range with 00 buckshot. It was effective. Shotguns do work. Even this AR might be able to get through a magazine without a malfunction. I know that I know everyone in LE around here, but they will still take my weapons into evidence. Who gives a shit about an AR? I’d cry harder over my 181 series Mini-14. The Mini-14 stays in the safe. The AR is now the ready rifle. Because, really, who cares about an AR-15?
“The AR platform was designed around a 20 round magazine.”
It wasn’t designed around a 20 round magazine actually.
Basically, the origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle and as a civilian rifle for game hunting it was thought at the time that industry would make a 5 ‘or more’ round detachable magazine for it because some of the semi-auto hunting rifles of the time could hold at least 5 rounds.
The military originally wanted to use a 25 round magazine but then a 20 round magazine was thought to be what was needed so 20 round magazine was initially adopted. The platform its self though was simply designed around a detachable magazine with no particular capacity in mind and it was the military that said 20 rounds. Later the military wanted more more to match the ‘enemy’ AK magazine capacity which was 30 rounds, so the U.S. military 30 round magazine came to be and it was adopted as the standard issue magazine by the U.S. military. And then the ‘designed around’ became a standard 30 round magazine in the military because it became issued with the military rifle when ammo was issued – the ‘designed around’ became synonymous with the issue as a standard not the other way around. Thus the U.S. government through the military made the 30 round magazine a standard capacity magazine.
In historical requirement, tradition, text, and intent and the 2A, laid out by the founders, civilians are allowed arms on par with the military excluding unusually dangerous and unusual (by current law). That includes ammunition and ‘feeding devices’ also known as magazines. Industry responded, and we have 30 round standard capacity magazine for the civilian grade MSR and other fire arms with platforms designed with their use as standard capacity magazine.
I’m not sure the AR15 was designed for the civilian market.
Initially the AR 15 was designed as an automatic weapon, they would have very little popularity in the civilian market in 1959.
The original salesman’s samples were full auto:
“For those of us who take fondly to the black rifles, the most famous of all may arguably be the Colt ArmaLite AR-15 Serial Number 000106, also known as “The Coconut Rifle.” This particular gun is credited for the adoption of this weapon system eventually becoming the primary service weapon of the United States Military for almost 50 years.
The mystique of this special rifle begins its journey from Hartford, Connecticut to Baltimore, Maryland on February 17, 1960 and ends up in Fairfield, Maine in 2011 after traveling around the globe more than two times.”
“I’m not sure the AR15 was designed for the civilian market.”
I am.
“Initially the AR 15 was designed as an automatic weapon”
not true.
what the military got was what was designed for the military, after the inception of the AR-15 as a civilian rifle. The origin of the rifle though was as a civilian rifle which was semi-auto.
Basically, the origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle and as a civilian rifle.
The reason the military AR-15 originally used 20 round magazines and the military selected them was because industry was already producing reliable 20 round magazines for the AR-10 by that time and all they needed to do was scale it down for the 5.56. The military initially wanted 25 round magazines but they also wanted to put the rifle in service quickly so instead of waiting for industry to redesign and scale up capacity and then testing of a larger capacity of 25 rounds, it was quicker and cheaper to just re-scale what industry was already producing so 20 round magazines were adopted. Later the military wanted 30 round mags, and industry responded with a capacity of 30 rounds.
I agree with you. I would add that there were production and design issues as well as US Ordinance Department’s infamous track record of being cheap b*stards as well.
20 rounds is the limit in a straight walled magazine to reliably feed. when they went beyond 20, reliable feeding became an issue due to cartridge geometry in either caliber as there’s a limit to how much the follower can cam in the magazine’s formed anti-tilt channel.
It was far cheaper and faster to produce a straight walled magazine than a curved magazine at that time. A metal curved magazine requires several more steps and additional tooling to produce. Side walls on a straight magazine can be folded by the simple brake method, whereas curved side walls required dies, a press, and several steps to form. In the 50’s/60’s that was a costly piece of equipment for a shop to invest in.
Stoner may have used the M14 magazine as a guide/template in developing the AR10, the M14 mag requires some modifications to work in an AR10
The distinction is that the AR’s feed system was designed around the template of magazine production limits, not the magazine itself, as it doesnt use the original M14 template.
There are guns that were designed specifically for magazines, but the AR isn’t one of them. Guns like the British Sten and Polish Blyskawica were both designed from the beginning to use German MP40 magazines.
I’ve seen the claim that the AR15 was designed initially for the civilian market, but the evidence seems to indicate otherwise:
“In the year 1957 The US Army requested the Armalite Division of the Fairchild Aircraft Corp to develop a rifle of .22 caliber, lightweight, select-fire, and capable of penetrating a standard steel helmet at 500 meters.
Eugene Stoner, then a designer at Armalite, began to develop this rifle, based on his earlier design – the 7.62mm AR-10 automatic rifle. At the same time, experts at Sierra Bullets and Remington, in conjunction with Armalite, began to develop a new .22 caliber cartridge, based on the .222 Remington and .222 Remington Magnum hunting cartridges.“
https://modernfirearms.net/en/assault-rifles/u-s-a-assault-rifles/m16-a1-a2-a3-a4-eng/
what you are seeing is true as far as the military rifle is concerned. but that was the design for the military.
the origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle. and in context with the military version what the military got was a redesign of the civilian version for which the complete design was not ready for prototype and that is the design Stoner started working on for the military and its derivation from the AR-10 is because the civilian version was based on the AR-10 and a military rifle from that made sense because the platform was sound and worked. it was the quickest route to a military rifle.
“Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle“
Citation or source?
So only on the “drawing board” and no prototypes?
The record shows that Eugene Stoner developed the AR5 and AR7 as survival rifles for the military, and the AR10 as an infantry weapon, but I have seen no civilian weapons designed by Eugene Stoner.
“The Army soon charged Stoner with modifying the AR-10 into the AR-15. This would use the smaller .223 Remington cartridge, though it was somewhat enlarged for Army SPCS. In addition to becoming “America’s rifle,” the AR-15 eventually became the M16, which became the standard-issue service rifle for the United States Army in 1969.
The AR-15 was developed because of the changing needs of the U.S. Continental Army Command (CONARC). New parameter challenges were set out for firearm companies in the beginning of 1957. Some months later, Stoner gave a live fire demonstration of what was still known as a modified AR-10, but would soon rocket to fame as the AR-15.“
https://ammo.com/articles/eugene-stoner-creator-ar-15-americas-rifle-forgotten-history
“Family of AR-15 Inventor Says He Never Intended the Gun For Civilian Use
Eugene Stoner, the inventor of the AR-15, never even owned the controversial rifle.
By Rachel Dicker
June 16, 2016”
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-06-16/family-of-ar-15-inventor-eugene-stoner-gun-wasnt-meant-for-civilians
“Family of AR-15 Inventor Says He Never Intended the Gun For Civilian Use”
“Family” said.
That’s true and not ttue, his intent. His interest was in military only rifles. But Armalite wanted a civilian rifle, he worked for Armalite.
Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle.
He never intended his military design for civilian use, and it isn’t in civilian use just as he intended. His intent was that his military rifle was not for civilian use.
“but I have seen no civilian weapons designed by Eugene Stoner.”
That’s true. Because his interest was in military rifles so any of his rifles that did make it into the world were military focused and that’s the reason you “have seen no civilian weapons designed by Eugene Stoner.”
Like I said…
The origin of the Armalite AR-15 design was actually as a civilian rifle. Armalite wanted a civilian rifle and it was already on the design ‘drawing’ stage as a civilian rifle version of the AR-10 7.62 military rifle. But the military needs came to be and it was then ‘changed’ to refocus on the military as a replacement for the M-14. Stoner had wanted to only work on rifles for the military so he had suggested an adaptation version of the AR-10 for the civilian rifle AR-15 and that’s why it was already in the design phase as a civilian rifle because Stoner wanted to keep the military theme going because it was what he was interested in designing thus the rifle was designed as a military type rifle in its theme but not specifically as a military rifle at its inception because when the design came to be there wasn’t a military need for it and Armalite wanted a civilian rifle. So when the military need came to be Armalite (Stoner) set about with a redesign of the civilian rifle AR-15 already in progress and its that design that premiered as a military rifle because the civilian version never made it to useful prototype from its design. So the actual origin of the AR-15 is as a civilian rifle. and in context with the military version what the military got was a redesign of the civilian version for which the complete design was not ready for prototype and that is the design Stoner started working on for the military and its derivation from the AR-10 is because the civilian version was based on the AR-10 and a military rifle from that made sense because the platform was sound and worked. it was the quickest route to a military rifle.
What you saw was a military rifle AR-15, the origins for which was as a civilian AR-15 semi auto rifle. Today in the civilian world we have basically a continuation and evolution of that civilian semi-auto rifle origin, the cosmetics and specs for which are influenced by the military design that began life as a civilian design.
Stoners intent is fulfilled, his AR-15 military rifle is not the civilian MSR rifle we have today.
I’ll tell you what Stoner told me many years ago before he passed away. I just happen to have met him by chance many years ago. I asked him about the AR-15 – he told me; Armalite wanted a civilian rifle, a version of the AR-10. He objected because he wanted to only do military rifles and thought that should be where Armalite was focused. But Armalite insisted it wanted to appeal to the civilian market because there was rising demand for ‘rifles that looked military’. So he suggested they do a rifle based on the AR-10 so he could keep working on a ‘military’ looking style rifle at least, and he had wanted to do a military rifle based on the AR-10 anyway, and he already knew the military was looking for a new rifle. So he started working on the civilian AR-15 design as Armalite wanted. But it just so happens the military need became known when the military approached Armalite – as the design for the civilian version was almost done. So he took what he had with the civilian design and used it to design a rifle for the military.
The AR-15 origin is as a civilian rifle.
Oh, and Stoner did design a civilian gun, it was a pistol. It was the The Colt 2000 (AKA ‘All American 2000’). A semiautomatic 9 mm manufactured by Colt. It was intended for two demographics – civilian law enforcement and the general civilian market.
Reed Knight (of Knights Armament) and Eugene Stoner (who was working for Knight Armament when the Colt 2000 was introduced) – worked on the project together.
The Colt 2000 was introduced at the 1990 Shooting Hunting and Outdoor Trade Show (AKA SHOT Show). The gun was a failure, but its still a prized collectors item.
Standards can and do change over time. Lap belts and three speed transmissions used to be the standard. We don’t wring our hands over that changing.
GF
I agree if they take my $350 home built ar oh well. I’d miss the sig red dot that’s on it more than the rifle.
now my favorite fal or ak different story
The people of New York to include every member of law enforcement are very used to a certain way of living. It is a kind of insanity that feeds on itself and gets perpetuated by city officials. Most of them just cannot see that there is a better way. Rampant drug use doesn’t make things any easier. You cannot just dump 2A and someone like Trump onto societies like that. They will reject it. Chicago is no different. The mere fact that someone has a gun in New York is enough for an arrest. Which is completely ridiculous. It’s just as crazy as a citizen getting arrested for having a thirty round magazine. To the people in that state, there are places in this country where you can buy 30 round AR15 magazines right off the shelf as if were a pack of gum. Something that should be looked at as perfectly normal and acceptable. It is a shame that New York can’t be that way too. The truth is that places like that have such a big problem with all this simply because they have such a big problem with it. There would be no issues if they would just let people be free and stop hassling everyone. But keep voting Democrat and nothing will change except for maybe for the worse.
Prndll. I’ve been to NY a few times. The city and upstate. I carried a concealed 1911 every time. It wasn’t very hard. I’ve said it before. Fuck the government.
So just what is a high capacity magazine or standard capacity magazine? By who’s standard?
My basic CC weapon is an old 1911. It came with a couple 7 round magazines. So is the now popular 8 round magazine considered high capacity? Or is the para ordinance 14 round version of the 1911 high capacity? It uses a double stack set up commonly used in 9mm weapons.
When I purchased my AR-15 many years ago, it came with 2 20 round magazines and 2 30 round magazines. So, which is standard? My AR10 came with a 10 round magazine and a 20 round magazine. The Garand conversion I have uses standard 20 round BAR magazines. But was originally designed to use a fixed 8 round enboc clip fed magazine. The rifle was altered/converted some time in the 1950’s before my father purchased it.
All the concern over magazine size, or firearm type, or cosmetic features does nothing to limit criminal misuse of firearms. Nor will any laws we could write prevent anyone from committing whatever crime or act of violence. All we can do is exact retribution upon those who commit the crimes and do our best to catch, try and convict/imprison those found guilty of said acts of violence.
They are all just magazines. Some hold more or less rounds than others.
But magazines they are, indeed.
SUPREME COURT WIN in Oregon, Magazine Ban Not Going Into Effect.
5 Reasons Why You Need “High-Capacity” Magazines.
Just a note to TTAG about your moderation software.
Several of my last comments have been flagged. There is no profanity, threats or personal attacks in those comments.
You all need to clean that crap program up, or I’ll take my marbles and go play elsewhere.
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