File this under things everyone already knew was going on. As we wrote the other day, no one likes high prices, but they’re part of the current market conditions. Consumers are seeing the effects of the laws of supply and demand on a daily basis as they shop for guns and, more acutely, ammunition.
But there’s a difference between market-driven price increases and outright gouging. Mention the term ‘gouging’ to just about any firearms consumer and one seller almost immediately comes to mind: the ironically named Cheaper Than Dirt.
Their eye-popping surge pricing dates back at least to the post-Sandy Hook gun run. Now — finally — the Fort Worth retailer’s business practices have attracted the attention of the Texas Attorney General.
Form the Austin American-Statesman . . .
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has accused the Fort Worth-based website Cheaper Than Dirt, which primarily sells firearms, ammunition and hunting gear, of price gouging at the start of the pandemic.
The AG’s office identified over 4,000 sales that involved price gouging and has directed Cheaper Than Dirt to pay $402,786 in refunds to consumers, according to court documents filed this month.
Over 100 people have complained to the AG’s office about Cheaper Than Dirt, the Houston Chronicle reported earlier this year.
Early on in the pandemic-fueled buying binge, readers were sending us screen grabs from CTD’s site showing cases of 5.56 ammo priced at $970. This was at a time when other retailers were selling the same ammo at somewhere around $450. But that apparently wasn’t all consumers were seeing.
Additionally, the following weekend that Abbott issued the disaster declaration, Cheaper Than Dirt manually raised its prices outside of its normal schedule.
“Making these manual ‘real-time’ price changes caused confusion for consumers because the prices consumers saw on the website pages when selecting items for purchase were different from the prices that appeared in the final check-out cart,” the AG’s office said in court documents.
And now it will apparently cost them in the mid six figures.
EDIT: over on TTAG’s Instagram page, we captured some of CTD’s shenanigans:
Ok, if you expected to pay one price, and another, higher price appeared at checkout, and you purchased anyway, who is the one who should be fined?
that would be the seller. Its called fraud.
“ExAmmo: $3.75/round !!! <— another name to put right next to CTD and Dick’s on my “never buy from” list."
It is only fraud if you pay, and receive nothing, or receive a completely different product. Asking for pancakes, and receiving pizza after you paid for pancakes could be fraud.
As mentioned, posting one price and charging another is more "bait and switch" than fraud or "gouging". BTW, CTD (and others) are completely open about their final pricing; you can choose to walk away.
Those examples are fraud, I agree. Also agree people should be paying attention when making any purchase.
But if you agree to one price and discover after the fact you were charged a higher price, that is also fraud. Not realizing the trick has been pulled on you does not remove the wrong of the sneaky, money grubbing thief.
“But if you agree to one price and discover after the fact you were charged a higher price, that is also fraud.”
We agree. On a completed transaction, after the “receipt” shows the promised price, but the credit card shows higher, there may actually be fraud (but that requires proof of intent, not error). However showing a posted price, and a “fee” tacked on before the transaction is paid is not “fraud” as generally understood (the law is more entertaining on that).
” Bait and Switch ” is also fraud
” Bait and Switch ” is also fraud”
Even if no transaction happens?
I seem to recall a felony called “intent to defraud”
“I seem to recall a felony called “intent to defraud” ”
Could be. However, fraud is defined as predicated on intent, which means intent to intent is required for proof. Kinda tough to get there, eh?
Has anyone ever tried to sue CTD based on fraud? Has CTD ever been charged with fraud?
BTW, if we complain about “gouging”, to be honest we must also decline discounts when supplies are in excess of demand.
“…you can choose to walk away.”
Do you read every contract you sign?
There’s a reason that many contracts now include a list of most of the provisions in the contract that you must physically initial before the contract is valid: most people just don’t read the contract.
And, I would wager, most people don’t really check when presented with a cart at a vendor to ensure the prices are what was advertised when they clicked “Add to cart.”
So, ‘walking away’ requires the knowledge that you should ‘walk away.’ Without checking, that knowledge isn’t there. Businesses are fully aware of this, and will sometimes take advantage of it, and this is usually known as fraud.
“So, ‘walking away’ requires the knowledge that you should ‘walk away.’ Without checking, that knowledge isn’t there.”
Being uninformed, ignorant, or lazy (as I was) is a personal responsibility. I recognize that if I don’t read and understand a contract, I put myself at risk. I do not depend on government or commerce to be “fair”. “Fair” is a one-way street: how you treat others. No one has a moral obligation to treat you fairly.
So, yes, If you put a product in your basket at one price, and a different price is charged at checkout, it is the responsibility of the buyer to take note and take action. No excuses.
“Bait and Switch” is when you advertise an item for price X to draw people in. But you don’t actually have that exact item in stock, so you offer the customer a different item of the same type at a higher price.
While having a price that’s different in the cart than what’s on the item display page is switching – it’s not what is meant when the term “Bait and Switch” is used.
“While having a price that’s different in the cart than what’s on the item display page is switching – it’s not what is meant when the term “Bait and Switch” is used.”
Thanx for the clarification !
Apparently Sam I Am has stock in CTD (or is an employee).
It is true that one should pay attention to the prices in the cart before purchase but switching them from the selection page price is also fraud.
Why are you fighting this so hard? CTD has always priced gouged. Always. I’ve always laughed at their name of being Cheaper Than Dirt. Dirt can be very very expensive. It’s an old trick of grifters to label outright what they’re doing so they can laugh at their victims. Governments do it to but less outright on purpose.
I think it’s good that CTD got fined and maybe this incident will blow them out of the water or set them back a bit. But probably not.
Dirt can be very very expensive.
Yep, there are places in the world where dirt can go for between one and two grand a sq ft as long as it stays planted and is connected to enough other sq ft parcels to actually be able to build a useable/livable structure….
Dirt can be very, very expensive:
Like Gettysburg, the Somme, Tarawa, Stalingrad, Hurtgen Forest, Bloody Ridge, Khe Sanh…
“Apparently Sam I Am has stock in CTD (or is an employee).”
Nope. Allowed my laziness to conduct one transaction with CTD. Saw what they were doing, and went along anyway. Not since.
Sam I Am is just hardheaded about product pricing. There is absolutely zero, I say again, zero moral imperative that any business set pricing to make us happy. Ever. Many here are convinced that any company that does not offer pricing attractive to us is engaged in “gouging”. Given the political influence on firearms and supplies we have seen since 2000, if we are caught with our pants down, that is on us.
We hate us some high pricing, but will stand in the rain to get “fire sale” pricing when businesses close up.
I just keep hammering the hypocrisy we eagerly display. Being a hypocrite is fine, just admit it, and stop complaining.
yo Ben, where did u get your law degree? u should ask for a full tuition refund.
after the democrats eliminate internet sales this won’t even matter…
“after the democrats eliminate internet sales this won’t even matter…”
Then we will have one less stressor to worry about. That’s a good thing in troubling times, right?
Sure
Sure, then you get to stand in line at your local store for one to three boxes of ammo instead of a case. Ron White was right.
“Sure, then you get to stand in line at your local store…”
Barnie told us that lines at stores are a good thing because that means there is something to buy.
I will just come take yours. There won’t be any police anymore either. and he will give them to me because if you’re not home they’re not yours anymore since you’re OK with getting fucked you should mind it one more time
This isn’t unique to cheaper than dirt – if you look for just about any firearm or component on the web, you’ll find a thousand sellers.. and most of those “sellers” are just showing inventory from a handful of actual suppliers/ warehouses. The only difference between 950 of them is the markup that each of them chooses to add to the deal.
This was extremely prevalent during the time when the importation of the saiga shotgun was banned. Fifty dealers showed “stock”, but there weren’t actually fifty guns in existence.. just fifty retailers pimping the same handful of guns at a couple of warehouses.
Same thing with the infamous $100+ 30round mags that people are still blaming ctd for.. one wholesaler had mags for $x wholesale and ctd used an algorithm to bump the price to cost + x% – without any human intervention.
Amazon and pretty much every retailer everywhere does exactly the same thing.
Your argument loses a lot of credibility if you have to use Amazon as a model of virtue.
CTD actually engages in some shady tactics beyond simply raising prices though. During the 2013 panic, as it hit, they recalled ammo and mags that had already been paid for and *shipped* to the customer, and CTD canceled the orders and had the items returned to their inventory. They refunded the customers, however that’s very shady. It convinced me to never buy from them again, regardless of what it is they’re selling.
If you’re wondering, I’m fairly confident this incident was in fact reported here at TTAG back then. At least I believe it was. It was 7 years ago after all, but I remember it.
“During the 2013 panic, as it hit, they recalled ammo and mags that had already been paid for and *shipped* to the customer, and CTD canceled the orders and had the items returned to their inventory. They refunded the customers,”
Was this an actual “recall”, or a backroom move to cancel existing orders that had not physically shipped? If an actual “recall”, there was no obligation to send items back to the company.
Note: customers have no “hold” on items in their online shopping cart. Thus it is not unusual for customers to find that items listed as available while filling the cart are no longer available when completing the transaction.
Still, I choose not to deal with CTD.
I don’t remember the exact specifics, but there were quite a few people stating that items that had not only been paid for, but supposedly shipped, had been returned back to CTD. CTD then told the customers the orders had been canceled for some unidentifiable reason and were refunded.
Regardless of wether it took place in the shipping dock or out on the street, it was enough for me to never purchase from them either.
That goes beyond simple price gouging. Honestly, I get price gouging. If I ran a business, I’d do it too. But if an item has already been purchased thats a different story. It’s bad business and There’s no way you can earn peoples trust back after such a move regardless of the legality. CTD has likely lost millions in potential revenue by behaving in this manner and turning off customers.
Agree that businesses who blatantly take advantage of customers should be shunned. But if items shown as “shipped” online, were not physically enroute, it may be impossible to distinguish between shady practices and bad software regarding inventory levels. Fortunately, all one needs is to be dissatisfied with a business to justify not doing further business.
But if items shown as “shipped” online, were not physically enroute,
Shipped is usually posted when the Shipping label is created, a quick check with the carrier will most likely show “not in the system”… enroute to carrier indicates the item has left the shipper…
“Shipped is usually posted when the Shipping label is created.”
Once was a warehouse supervisor at a distribution center. It was not strange or out of the ordinary to have created a shipping label, then be told a higher priority customer updated an order, requiring the scheduled delivery be “returned” to inventory in order to fulfill the priority order.
The first shipping label was cancelled immediately. When we got a question about that, we simply told the inquirer that we made a mistake and corrected it immediately. That cancelled shipment was flagged in the system as a priority order eligible for faster rate of delivery at standard delivery price.
What CTD did was systematically cancel and refund paid orders that hadn’t yet left the warehouse and then re-list all those items for highly inflated prices. It’s the essence of gouging. Not illegal, but also not cool. Not. Cool.
“What CTD did was systematically cancel and refund paid orders that hadn’t yet left the warehouse and then re-list all those items for highly inflated prices. It’s the essence of gouging. Not illegal, but also not cool. Not. Cool.”
Nope. Not cool. But somehow they stay in business.
I was denied a full spam can of 7.62 x 25 after the fact – and the price went up about 3x. I also had another company sell me items with a bill of sale and then the bill disappeared off the screen and a second came up, saying “all the items in the cart”.
It took 2 months to get my money back from paypal, since all I got delivered was an empty envelope.
These things do happen, don’t blame it on the buyer…….
Price Gouging , over inflating prices during a state or federally declared national emergency or disaster.
“Price Gouging , over inflating prices during a state or federally declared national emergency or disaster.”
Define “inflating”. Define “over inflating”. What is the universal standard calculation for permissible price increases in periods of shortage? Explain the cosmic moral principle that prohibits raising prices in periods of shortage, “over consumption”. Explain the cosmic moral principle behind establishing prices for “normal” political/economic conditions.
I suppose that the good thing to come out of this totally un-Constitutional move by the AG is that the government must have referred to ammunition as an essential commodity, something that could well be used in other legal proceedings.
Back in the day, they had an actual retail location off of I35W north of Fort Worth. I shopped there for awhile but stopped going in. Not sure if it was because of the crappy customers but the store staff developed a really crappy attitude. Ask a question and they treated you like you were too stupid to deal with. Sad. I liked the store because of the stock. Oh well.
I remember that place. The dudes working there were some grumpy sons of bitches
A lot of gun stores have grumpy sales people. Kind of sad because I love Gun stores !!
My worst experience was the salesman ignoring me when i knew what i wanted and was ready to buy. Instead he spent 15-20 minutes hawking a glock to a woman who was there with her husband. You could tell they had no clue about anything. This became most apparent when they told the worker theyd take the glock amd neither of them had ID on them.
20 minutes of my life I’ll never get back
“My worst experience was the salesman ignoring me when i knew what i wanted and was ready to buy. ”
In my sales experience, customers “ready to buy” were the worst prospects; about zero opportunity to “upsell”. The clueless can easily be upgraded to more expensive items.
grumpy old guys and cocky no-nothing young guys are pretty common in gun stores..
MAN, some of you folks must live in CRAPPY areas… I walk into my local gun store any time of day, any day of the week and I see three smiling faces ALL greeting me by name and ready to engage in conversation, show me anything I want or just compete a sale or a pickup of an on-line purchase… I always leave there in a much better mood than when I went in…
“always leave there in a much better mood than when I went in”
The dogs in the local gun stores here even greet me. Every gun store should have a dog or two. They make the best greeters.
One day I pointed out to the kid who greeted me from across the room, “The dog comes right over and licks my hand. You don’t even come out from behind the counter.” His reply?
“You buy this 1911 today and I’ll lick your hand.” (He knows I’m a sucker for a nice 1911.)
If I walk into any store and the staff are rude I simply go elsewhere and won’t return. I don’t expect cheery fake grins and smoke up my ass either. They don’t even have to talk to me. But if they go out of they’re way to be a dick or annoy me with silliness, then their competition just earned a new customer.
I don’t know about where you live, but surplus stores usually end up in a large, warehouse type of building(that was built a long time ago for a different purpose) and they stay there. As the city decays around them, they stay for the cheap rent and old customers. Hollywood, South Central L.A., Pomona. The original Fry’s electronics was a surplus house(complete with sci fi effects, a cut up jeep, mangled manikins), and Pasadena had them in the pre gentrified “Old Town”.
I love those places………
That was Cheaper Than Dirt Outdoor Adventures, not the same as the Cheaper Than Dirt! company.
“Early on in the pandemic-fueled buying binge, readers were sending us screen grabs from CTD’s site showing cases of 5.56 ammo priced at $970. This was at a time when other retailers were selling the same ammo at somewhere around $450.”
So people voluntarily purchased ammo from CTD that was available elsewhere for less. Where’s the crime? Not doing your homework always costs you.
This is a waste of time, just don’t shop there.
Nobody says they purchased it, they just sent screen grabs of the ripoff.
I can (and have) gone all the way through an online purchase to the point the “BUY NOW” button was there, and not followed through.
I’ve sent screen grabs to my buddies of CTD’s “sales” for the LOLs.
One of my buddies saw (and grabbed the screen of) an offer of 500 rounds of JRN 9mm ammo on a gun auction site for $999.99. I don’t know whether it sole or not, but that’s an example of what’s out there.
Yes, there’s an “ignorance” tax.
He he…to all the “this is capitalism & free market price gouging is cool” I guess Texass agrees with me. It ain’t. BTW I visited 3 gunshop’s & a pawnshop yesterday with a good friend. None were beyond the pale with pricing.
There’s no such thing as “gouging” in a free market. If you expect coddling you’re just another bleating sheep.
Free Market? There hasn’t been such a thing since President Theodore Roosevelt, not completely anyway.
“Free Market? There hasn’t been such a thing since President Theodore Roosevelt”
Free Market as in the government does not require you to buy, nor anybody become a seller.
Hunter Biden smiles.
Yes, there is such a thing as price gouging in a free market. It absolutely does exist, and CTD is well known for doing it. (The relative freeness of our market is another question.)
It’s not generally illegal, and couldn’t really be stopped even if it were illegal. It’s as inevitable under the right conditions, and there’s no way to completely prevent it; even in the most unfree controlled economies in the world, people STILL get gouged (only in those economies, there are few-to-zero ways to get around it due to lack of competition).
Complaining about it and expecting to be bailed out is ridiculous and does no good, but neither does claiming that it doesn’t exist.
Ah but what about Gasoline price gouging? Try that and you will be sought out out either by the AG or the local DA.
Ah but what about Gasoline price gouging?
THAT is a felony in FL got a hotline and everything.. Lot of that goes on when a big hurricane blows through…
OTOH, I was in a local pawn shop recently, and saw a Wrangler, used, black, for $275.
That’s higher than the list price on Ruger’s website. For a new revolver.
Possibly, the owner knows his clientele.
Nothing new here about Cheaper Than Dirt, this has been going on for some time, guess what ?, if you don’t buy anything from them for a certain period of time, they will stop sending you catalogs,,, that’d what happened to me, I think I won that round, now I’m not tempted to by overpriced merch.
Cannot see “gouging” here. There were/are multiple other active sources with more reasonable pricing. Not a lawyer, but this seems more like a “bait and switch” proposition. One might find a condition where the only source of a product was local, and there was no alternate source available. Finding a product priced at extraordinary levels unavailable elsewhere might be considered gouging. But then, the entire supply chain would have to be reviewed, as we have discussed.
Had a single experience with CTD, and paid because it was just too inconvenient (when you are lazy, everything is too inconvenient) to unwind the transaction, and look elsewhere. Yes, I paid too much; my choice. Never again.
Same here! CTD screwed me over one time on their outrageous shipping…my bad…a second time…never gonna happen. There are dozens of more honest vendors out there to spend your money with than to waste your time richarding around with CTD.
I think the last time I bought something from them may have been 2002?
Can’t remember the exact situation that raised an uproar with them but I know it turned alot of people off.
I remember exactly what Dick’s did before woke was a word though.
they do have a nice variety of items for sale though…….
Again??? Sadly, they’re not alone this time!
There’s a technique to avoid paying over market prices. It’s called “shopping around”. And the internet makes it super easy.
How dare CTD force people to buy from their website. I’m glad they never forced me to buy from them, guess I’m just lucky.
Stupid freaking statist sheeple. What a shatty nation of shatheads this place has become. We deserve Trump and Biden.
Well said. Capitalism is dead in America. Big Government killed it at the request of the sheeple.
It appears that the price advertised and the price charged were different. 2 boxes priced at $x go into your cart, 2 boxes priced $x+n are charged to your card.
I guess those “prices subject to change without notice” warnings are meant to cover that, but it’s still a dishonest way to do business — unless of course, the website flashed a warning that the price had changed while in your cart and buyers simply didn’t pay attention. CTD doesn’t ship to my state so I can’t check.
It is Cheaper Than Dirtbags after all.
I get the emails from them but I’ve never been interested in paying $59.95 for a 50 round box of 9mm FMJ. I can get the same ammo at a local Gun store for well under $20.00. Anyone who buys ammo from them us making a foolish & expensive mistake.
You can get a $20 box of 9mm fmj? I’ll take 10
LOL, I was buying 100-rd boxes of 9mm FMJ by the armload at $20 each pre-plandemic. So glad I backed up the truck and bought literally cartloads last year…as in literally a few hundred rounds per trip to the store. I’m seeing prices at triple or even quadruple that now.
I have a feeling the predictions of prices not coming back down (and supply back up) for at least a couple of years are turning out to be true.
@Haz
I was talking to the Manager of a local store’s gun department earlier today (Wednesday). He told me that his buyer is telling his local Managers that the ammo companies are going to double the wholesale prices in January in an effort to stem the demand and allow them to catch up with production…we sardonically agreed that if this comes to pass then the manufacturers are either getting in their last hurrah by gouging the heck out of firearm owners or they are trying to succor the Harris Administration (good luck with appeasing the Devil…). The thought of using price controls to depress the market demand did not pass the “sniff” test as far as we were concerned.
A few more weeks will tell if this is true or a random rumor.
There is a whole lot of economic ignorance there. Price controls are what the government does, not what private firms do. They are just responding to excess demand.
The entire purpose of the market is to allow prices to choke off excess demand or excess supply.
@tdiinva,
I once taught an Economics course at the adult level on a college campus. Were you replying to my comment, or OGIM?
Funny I never hear anyone say “Manufactured goods generally cost more when you need to produce them at night and on weekends, because your labor costs are higher.” You could increase your capacity, and go under when the demand disappears (again), but most companies have already been fooled once by that one. If I needed more ammo, I would pay for it. Since I don’t need any, I’ll wait till prices are more reasonable. Duh. Don’t see a reason to complain either way.
OGIM.
Where did you teach? I taught Econ at Indiana University in the early 80s before joining the Deep State.
Macro Econ. Masters University campus. Several years ago now.
CtD are scumbags, but that hardly qualifies as “price gouging”. Not when there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of online retailers who will happily sell you the same product at a lesser price. If someone is too stupid to use ammoseek I fail to see how that’s the fault of CtD
+1
+2
I’m shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
They can lick my scrotum.
Use them as a learning experience.
Nobody like shady business practices and yes buyer beware BUT, fair is fair. A retailer still needs to play buy ethical rules. Nobody likes going to the grocery store, looking at an item on the shelf for, lets say catsup and it says $2.57 but when it’s rung up, it’s $3.05 Now wait just a second!! Of course, cashiers ALWAYS give you the (I didn’t know) retarded look ALWAYS!
We have a plumbing and drain service here in Spokane. I won’t mention names, BULL DOG. OK I lied. Their little game is to come out and tell you they can fix it. OK, what do you charge an hour? It will take 2.5 hours? OK. They slam job out, write “parts” on the receipt and Labor, then you get a bill for $800. When you question the bill amount, then they tell you its FLAT RATE Well why not SAY THAT IN THE BEGINNING? That is some shady BS right there!
Is CTD price gouging? I suppose it would come down to what THEY are paying for the ammo as opposed to before. As far as the prices coming up different, that’s probably an error but nevertheless, the consumer should watch what they are paying.
Yesterday I just ordered from Primary Arms in Texas another Magpul 300 blk magazine for my AR pistol, you select your shipping methods, tax, the item, hit buy, you get an email receipt, it’s all right there. Now if you were charged more than what you saw on final check out, THAT I could see getting pissed about.
Buyer beware!!
Ridiculous assertion, nobody is forced to buy at Cheaper than Dirt. They can charge what they want and alienate all of their customers if they feel like it.
Apparently that’s their business model.
Oh my surprised face 🙊but I’d have to ask WHOOOO is that STUPID to buy from them???
Correct, after all they are infamous for this type of thing and this goes back years.
Bwaahaaahhaaahhanhhha
I quit dealing with CTD post-Sandy Hook. I prefer to deal with retailers that didn’t raise their prices just cause they could. Midway USA is a company that hasn’t raised their prices to exorbitant levels, they just limited number of boxes of ammo.
I went by the gun shop near my parents home in Somerville TX. Wanted to get an extra box of ammo for the .380 pistol I carry in my car when going to and from college.
Creepy guy wanted $100 a box!!
Asked how he could be that way. Said he had plenty of customers who pay that price. Did not believe him, but also did not buy anything from him.
Dad said he is not well respected as a businessman in town.
In his town, you might want to learn to ask Dad for a company’s references BEFORE walking in their door!
But there’s a difference between market-driven price increases and outright gouging.
Sorry, in a free market (which we have less and less every day) any business can set their prices anywhere they want. Ammunition is available in many places. This business does not have a monopoly. If people want to pay their exorbitant price, so be it. This is supposed to be a free country, but the free part disappears more each and every day. With all that said, I wouldn’t buy from them, but that is how commerce is supposed to work. One business charging a fortune will soon have to lower it when another retailer undercuts them.
Other retailers don’t have it. They have it because if you REALLY REALLY want it, you better have some extra kids and your left nut to hand over. No wonder they have some ammo in stock still. For this story, I checked to see if they had any .300 blk. Nobody else does, but THEY DO. Gosh, what a surprise huh!
” I checked to see if they had any .300 blk. Nobody else does, but THEY DO. Gosh, what a surprise huh!”
I agree. If someone sells something I want, it should be illegal for them to price it above what I am willing to pay. “The market” is just another tyranny. If a company sells out their inventory, and gets no more (or very little), well tough; they gambled and lost. That does not justify hoarding critical supplies just to make a higher profit on inventory they don’t sell.
Workers of the world, unite !
Viva Che’
Viva Max
Viva Las Vegas !
Viva free internet !
Viva free beer!
Sam, you really need to get with the “/sarc” tag, you know somebody is going to think you were serious.
“Sam, you really need to get with the “/sarc” tag, you know somebody is going to think you were serious.”
I try to make certain comments believably unbelievable. I want to get as close to the idiocy of gun grabbers as possible, while raising the remark, “Nobldy is that stupid…oh, I get it.”
I agree, it is a thin edge to walk.
I’ve never done business with CTD so I can’t really comment on their business practices other than what I’ve heard (none of it good).
But I do find it amusing that the average price on AmmoSeek for a case of 5.56 is now higher than a case of 5.56 UTM munitions, and enough so that you can often actually afford to get a UTM BCG and still be at about the same price as the case of M193.
Crazy times.
I give up. Dafook is “UTM 5.56”, and why would it need a different BCG?
I stopped giving them my money years ago over this very issue.
These a-holes have been doing this for years. The truth is, people need to vote with their wallet and quit buying from them. Put them out of business using market forces rather than legal tactics like this. That said, this couldn’t have happened to a more deserving company than CTD. Most of the gun community know these guys are rip-off artists and have stopped supporting them.
I read a lot of bad comments about CtD back in the mid 2000s when I posted on the surplus rifle.com forum.
They aren’t the only one engaged in gouging.
Currently on on AmmoSeek: S&B 300 Blackout 200gr Subsonic
from Sportsman’s Outdoors: $1.50/round, shortage high, but among the lower prices when it shows up.
ExAmmo: $3.75/round !!! <— another name to put right next to CTD and Dick’s on my “never buy from” list.
“ExAmmo: $3.75/round !!! <— another name to put right next to CTD and Dick’s on my “never buy from” list."
"The Market" at work.
Where's the problem?
Oh, you "need" cheaper ammo? Why is that a retailers problem?
The real crux of the problem is “panic buying” and hoarders that dry up the supply leading to shortages that then leads to so called “price gouging”. Ammo is a commodity, and like any commodity price are based on supply and demand. If people don’t buy at the high price, the price will come down. Sellers can charge whatever they like, but until an item sells they haven’t made any money. As long as idiot’s are willing to pay high prices, the prices will stay high or go up. The simple solution is to quit buying. As the warehouses fill up, the prices will come down. No major retailers can afford to sit on large inventories that aren’t selling.
The purpose of the price system is to allocate scarce resources. Raising the price encourages conservation and makes sure that the people who value the commodity the most get it. If you don’t raise price to choke off the excess demand then speculators will buy everything up and sell it later a higher price. Ultimately, keeping prices below the market level ultimately raises to higher level than they would naturally be.
“The purpose of the price system is to allocate scarce resources. ”
As Stryc9 so graciously cautioned me….stop it with the education and explanation of market interactions. It makes you sound privileged.
Just embrace the whine (or the Vodka, or whatever).
(Further note: you are upsetting the echo chamber)
But it is so much fun.
“But it is so much fun.”
I know, but being properly chastised, you should just slink away in humiliation; asking forgiveness from “the media”.
TDI, if anybody still doesn’t get it, mention toilet paper.
“TDI, if anybody still doesn’t get it, mention toilet paper.”
Whoa. Stop right there. Now ur talkin’ real gouging. Nobody needs a gun, but everyone needs toilet paper.
We need the government to establish mandates on the amount of toilet paper one can buy, store and use. Background checks must be established to ensure no one gets away with lying about the number of rolls on hand at home, or how fast they are using it. People who pass the checks should be issued a national identity and ration card for toilet paper. People who fail the background checks should be put on federal “No fly; No buy” lists. We gotta get organized, here.
if anybody still doesn’t get it, mention toilet paper.
During the shortage local stores around here were charging 40 to 50% premium for the “good stuff” with one package limit, same with paper towels… Nobody complained…
4 years after Sandy Hook hoarders were stuck with a lot of ammo they couldn’t unload for what they paid. They are visible at gun shows, check the dates on their stock and it’s 2012 or earlier. Some made a mint on their investment, good for them. They didn’t get it from me.
I guess it all comes down to how much ammo you have, need, and are willing to overpay for.
You are correct, but…….. If you are a new gun owner, you should have a box of ammo to get used to the gun and a second one to keep for defense. Even at the high cost, it could be the best buy of your life and your family’s.
Remember the toilet paper hoarders who now have garages, attics, cupboards, and spare rooms full of toilet paper. It was amusing when supermarkets said they wouldn’t accept returns on those products.
It is always so entertaining to see a group of free-market capitalists whining about price gouging.
And this fellow Ken Paxton, what a loser.
So he believes the state of Texas should be able to set the price on another persons private property, how very communist of him, I’m sure y’all are very proud of him.
Government price controls on ammo, I think you folks are onto something!
I know you really don’t believe in free markets but you get a slow clap for exposing the phony free marketeers and faux Libertarians.
You know CTD and all these other sellers are gouging! Yesterday, a local store near me had some 5.56 (50 rounds) for $15 (limit 1 box per) and 7.62×51 for $15/20 rounds. Still high but better than any mail order. Guy at counter said thats about their cost.
Why do you think they only allowed you to buy one box?
I thought we were boycotting CTD anyway? I can’t remember why though. Been a long time.
Boycotting is easy when the prices are too high!
I knew that 8 years ago, right after Sandy Hook, when CTD was charging 32 cents a round for 22LR plinking ammo. Never bought anything from them again. Surprised they are still in business.
“Surprised they are still in business.”
There is always market for overpriced goods and services. Our local Caddy dealer cannot keep SUVs on the lot. The lowest posted price, new, is $90k. (think about that)
Somehow the dealer stays in business.
I got really close to buying a shiny new 1975 ElDorado convertible, fire engine red with a white top and white interior, priced at $11,000 before any dickering. $90K, huh? Wow.
“$90K, huh? Wow.”
Probably the result of panic buying.
new, is $90k. (think about that) Somehow the dealer stays in business.
My 04 Lincoln Navigator was $72K (16 yrs ago) 90K is not out of line considering inflation, costs etc. New 4×4 Navigator Black Label is $102K….
“My 04 Lincoln Navigator was $72K (16 yrs ago) 90K is not out of line considering inflation, costs etc. New 4×4 Navigator Black Label is $102K….”
Then, or now, they are still just pickups with integral camper tops. $72k, or $100k, those are amounts that get my attention. Car payments equal to mortgage payments. What a country !
(No, I don’t begrudge anyone who can afford a new SUV)
We’re still driving the ’89 Suburban when we need a big vehicle. Any time I start thinking about dropping money into it to address wear and tear we go look at window stickers on new stuff. If I take the wife with for the window shopping there is no argument about spending money on the old one.
We’re still driving the ’89 Suburban when we need a big vehicle
Feel the same way about my Navigator, 90,000 miles still like new… Only brakes, tires and regular oil changes, it’s paid for itself several times over… added a turbo w 7 pounds boost a few years back always ran premium fuel so no major expense increases but way more fun to drive after… 08 Electra Glide Ultra Classic is the newest “vehicle” I own…. Buy good stuff, take care of it and enjoy it….
I’ve installed a dual snorkel intake (all under the hood), 3″ exhaust with turbo muffler, RV cam with steel double roller timing chain set, chipped the ECM, changed the gear ratio from 3.73 to 3.42 and went to 265 series tires (final drive equivalent to 3.08 with stock 235 tires), Eaton TruTrac to replace the GM posi and added a rear anti-sway kit. All this and repainted most of the vehicle thanks to GM’s peeling paint back in the day. Even went so far as to have a body floor pan new rear cross member welded in to deal with an old rusty one. I was afraid that the tailgate hinges would let go if it wasn’t fixed. Lately, replaced the headliner.
350 V8, 130K, looks and drives better than the day I got it. Tows like nobody’s business.
Ain’t they fun… But some dumb shit WILL ask you why….. the turbo added 150 horse to my rear wheels close to 460 lot of fun
The answer is, “Because I can!” Been thinking about a set of heads but I’ll probably do something with the tranny first. A model year or two later they put the heavier duty L60 in there before they went to the electronic version. Find me one of those…
Speaking of before they went electronic, this vehicle is too old to track or hack.
When you own a vehicle for decades, you can do this kind of stuff to it, one piece at a time.
you can do it with newer stuff as well.. bought an H2 at auction stolen recovery, no drivetrain… installed an older mechanical Cummins diesel (Dodge) with 5 speed, dana 60s at both ends, analog gauges, the only thing that can be tracked in that thing is my cell phone… strictly an apocalypse rig, I call it the Urban Warrior…
“Been thinking about a set of heads but I’ll probably do something with the tranny first. ”
TMI ! TMI !
TMI ! TMI
Do you mean TCI? TMI is mainly marine and industrial transmissions and equipment as well as a lot of obsolete stuff.. TCI would be a good choice for either a racing/performance application or heavy towing… I’m a third pedal guy myself and if the trans in my Navigator ever fails it will get a Tremec 6 speed.. sourced parts from an F250 will make it happen…
TMI, not TCI. Too Much Information.
American English is such a sloppy language.
I would totally go manual too but it will never happen as long as the wife is alive. She refuses to learn to drive a stick.
I heard dat, Sam. I didn’t even need the “/S” to git yer drift. Makes me think of a bible verse. “Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.”
Or, as Will Rogers said, “A man ain’t likely to look behind a door unless he’s stood there once himself.”
“I heard dat, Sam. I didn’t even need the “/S” to git yer drift.”
Happy to be here, grateful for the opportunity, proud to serve.
I don’t think it’s too smart to buy ammo on line anyway. The government or somebody tracks everything you buy and everything you say online. ( doesn’t it) …. That’s one reason I’m working on my Perpetual Neutrino Fussion Blomb.
The old possum is back!
Possum, you’re going to need a tritium accelerator for your neutrino bomb and I know where there’s one sitting, ain’t nobody using it for nothing, we could get it for a song!
Cue up “eve of destruction”
I’ve already made one with a washing machine and a bunch of fridge sticker magnets, it didn’t work until I put a bigger spin around on the go faster and went to a 5hp Briggs&Stratton .
I start using Taylor made and the Gov will catch on to me, gotta keep this on the hush hush
Good to see ya!
Good grief. People paying that price for 5.56 early in the pandemic were lazy, stupid, or both. “You can’t fix stupid.”
CTD has been notorious for doing this. $99 PMags and $1 per round M193 after Sandy Hook. There’s capitalism, then there’s ass rape crony capitalism because, “I got it and you don’t.” CTD is the latter.
Ass rape? That would generally be defined as forced sodomy without your consent.
How in hell can CTD get any of your money without your consent?
There are STILL consumers that deal with CTD?! Oh wait. There are still voters who vote for Democrats. Never mind.
Dealing with CTD only costs money.
Will someone define “price gouging” for me. I am too slow to know what it looks like. /sarc
I’m just here to read the comments from the Libertarian cuck bootlickers defending price gouging by CTD.
TTAG never disappoints.
I am here to read comments from closet communists like you.
I say you can’t sell your house for more than you paid for it. You good with that?
Spotted the bootlicker Libertarian cuck.
No, you spotted–even in your utter ignorance–an honest, pragmatic man who understands how a free-market economy works. Thanks for pointing him out while revealing your lack of education to boot, and your willingness to accept good old-fashioned socialism when it benefits YOU.
Unless you require and demand that Government set a ‘fair market value’ on everything that YOU might want to sell, from your house to one of your guns, then you had best not demand that Government start fixing the prices of other commodities. The surest way to make something scarce is to fix its price artificially–everything from housing to gasoline to medicine to ammunition included. If you want to lessen a scarcity of something, allow the free market to operate by letting the prices rise, encouraging others to make more of it and thus reap the now-higher profits, until suddenly there is more than enough of the something to go around, demand lessens, it becomes difficult to sell at the higher price, and the price comes back down again to where it WILL sell once more.
That’s how it works.
Ammunition isn’t a necessity of life; It’s not insulin, it’s not cardiac medication, it’s not clean drinking water. You can survive just FINE, most of the time, without it. One box of pistol ammunition, or one box of rifle ammunition, will almost certainly suffice to ward off any hordes of inner-city yutes or ravening suburbanites that might stop by for a visit, you know. Any larger hordes show up, and you’re likely to be unable to get all of them before they get you, regardless of how much ammo you’ve got stockpiled in your bunker.
So, man up, pay the asking price, or do without. Or make your own, if it’s so easy.
Last March I bought 1000 shares of Chevron at $65. A couple of months later I sold it for $105. Should I find the original seller and give him his money back?
“Should I find the original seller and give him his money back?”
Do you really need to ask? The proper thing is to refund all but your cost, plus a reasonable profit, such as 1%-1.5%. Otherwise you are just another capitalist economic rapist.
From each according to ability, to each according to their declared need.
And shortages on your side flow to shortages on my side of the big pond. We do have own manufacturing but it doesn’t cover the whole market.
I have been reloading for years and my only possible shortage is primers. Powder is locally produced by Mulwex. Projectiles I’ve had in bulk for years. This year I started to use old stockpiled ammo in less important matches. For .22 I have serval thousand rounds and I only use a few hundred per year.
“I’m just here to read the comments from the Libertarian cuck bootlickers defending price gouging by CTD. TTAG never disappoints.”
Exactly where is our natural, human and civil right to have products priced at a point we like? Want to control retail pricing? Become a retailer. You can be as generous as you wish (and good on ya, at that).
Everybody is a capitalist when they sell and a communist when they buy.
“Everybody is a capitalist when they sell and a communist when they buy.”
Keeping that one. Thanx.
“Libertarian cuck bootlicker. . . ” It rolls rather fluidly off the tongue, does it not? Like ‘Denebian Slime Devil’ or Antediluvian Liberal Reprobate.’ Or ‘mollycoddling lickspittle poltroon.’
We need more of this sort of imaginative compound insult!
Or “lyin dog-faced pony-soldier.”
“I’m just here to read the comments from the Libertarian cuck bootlickers defending price gouging by CTD.”
Then move along, Don. Cry about CTD business practices somewhere else. I vote with my wallet as does everyone else with common sense.
Normally I defend price gouging. For instance, if there’s a hurricane and a gas station is selling gas at $10/gal. you can be sure that only the people who really need the gas are buying it and very few people are going to be hording it at that price. People will buy only what they really need. Without gauging you have people who really need a scarce product who simply can’t buy it at any price because of hoarders. Besides, that station probably won’t be getting any new gas for a while, so they’re probably looking at substantial loses without gouging.
However, Cheaper than Dirt are just scum. I can’t defend them.
CTD may be scum, but consider this.
Let’s say that everyone BUT CTD has ammunition of a given type to sell, like .50-80 Webley-Vickers RNL, and are willing to sell it for less than what CTD is willing to accept. Nobody buys CTD’s ammunition, and everybody buys the other guy’s cheaper ammunition. CTD sits quietly, waiting.
One day, a prospective buyer discovers that he really, REALLY needs a box of .50-80 Webley-Vickers RNL, and simply cannot find it anywhere, for love nor pound sterling–except at the dreaded CTD, who HAS some because, when everybody ELSE had some too, theirs was ‘too expensive.’ The prospective buyer, desperate for his W-V ammunition, makes his purchase at the wildly inflated CTD price–but, at the end, he has his ammunition, and is grateful if not slightly bitter over the high cost.
Now, who is the monster, here? The other guys who sold their stock for less to assorted hoarders and profiteers and now have none, or CTD, who didn’t sell theirs until their asking price suddenly became ‘reasonable, thus fulfilling an exigent need when no one else could do so?
You tell me.
Nicely put !!
Stories I’ve heard from the Sandy Hook times tell of them canceling orders so they could resell the same merchandise at an inflated price. I’m fine with higher prices if they’re costs go up because their suppliers increased prices, or they had to pay more to establish new supply lines. Raising margins for stock on hand, especially after backing out of agreed upon invoices, is a step too far, and I won’t do business with them.
“Raising margins for stock on hand, especially after backing out of agreed upon invoices, is a step too far, and I won’t do business with them.”
And that decision is “the market” operating exactly as it should.
If I pay for and complete the financial transaction (I paid the price asked and my card has been debited) and they cancel the order and put it back up for sale at a later time at a higher price, that’s a breach of contract. Full stop.
An offer was made, and accepted, and the seller failed to deliver what we agreed on for a specific price…
“An offer was made, and accepted, and the seller failed to deliver what we agreed on for a specific price…”
Did you receive a full refund? If so, it may be tough to argue that you suffered a loss. Refusing to do further business with CTD is probably the remedy available.
Somehow, CTD seems to prosper despite questionable business practices.
I stopped buying from them years ago over price gouging… so when I saw this I was laughing my butt off.
What happens when a widow in a bad neighborhood can’t buy ammunition?
What happens when LE can’t buy ammo?
Well sunshine, they can’t buy it because it was sold to speculators at $10 a box.
Widows and LE who now realize they need ammo didn’t think ahead.
CTD is free to charge whatever price they see fit, as far as I am concerned. Just as I am free to remember their antics post-Sandy Hook and refuse to ever purchase anything from them.
Our local gun forum has primers going from 90/k. Last year they were going for 20-30/k. Limited availability means price is higher. Nature of the business. You don’t like cost of product move along. Or rant on your local gun forum. No need to get government involved.
The government is involved tho, BATFE. And that kinda pisses me off too. What does two addictive things and bombs have to do with gunms?
If I was gonna buy an AR for $7,000 it’d have to have $7,100 worth of gold plating.
And a giggle switch.
Wait… are we seriously going to act like CTD was ever a good thing?
Nothing will come of this. Some good points were made in the last topic of “price gouging”. It’s ridiculous and inflation is a “cure” – but as much as some of us hate to admit it – that’s the free market. That’s one of the discrepancies I have about capitalism. That, and the pop-ups (advertising). But the trade offs and our economy (which is great btw) make capitalism a truly remarkable thing – especially for a business owner.
The junk belongs to CTD. They can charge whatever price they want for it. If its too high, nobody will buy it and will shop somewhere else. If its too low, their profits will suffer.
The only problem I have is if they are in cahoots with other merchants to make all the prices too high.
Thats a free market, and it works if you keep the communists out of it.
Isn’t “in cahoots with other retailers” something like “conspiracy in constraint of trade”? And a felony?
You can’t gouge the willing.. No transaction is complete until the buyer (with full knowledge of the final pricing with all charges and costs) hits the GO button… There is no price gouging unless there is no other alternative.. gouging occurs when you are the only game in town and you take advantage of that by pricing your product over and above what a similar business considers a reasonable profit but if I am next door to that similar business and I sell the same product for three dollars that he sells for one dollar and you buy mine because you are too lazy to walk next door, or you like me better, or you like the name of my store OR you think that by paying a higher price you’re getting a better product then that just makes me a smarter business person and you either lazy or stupid or both…. Caveat emptor…
i would even offer guns and ammo are optional purchases. Sure there are good reasons for owning them right now but they are not water and food equivalent. There is no reason to supplement others on self defense, that’s something all Americans should of done already.
The listing of one price and charging of another without it being reflected prior to actually going through sounds like a problem to me.
As to the rest… I’ve kept an eye on ammo deal sites. The moment ammo in popular cartridges comes up at anything like a discounted rate it’s gone in a couple minutes. Whether it’s just people refreshing the browser or bots, I don’t know, but it’s gone. And what are those people doing with the thousands of rounds they bought? Maybe they’re stockpiling them, more likely they’re looking to resell somehow, just in a way that’s harder to track.
it’s gone in a couple minutes. Whether it’s just people refreshing the browser or bots
Same shit going on with the new Xbox Series X… Shows up on line at various store sites and is gone in minutes… Then shows up at ebay/Amazon/other auction sites at twice the price.. Gouging? not as long as dumb asses are willing to pay $800 for a $500 console or 75 cents for 40 cent round…
“The listing of one price and charging of another without it being reflected prior to actually going through sounds like a problem to me.”
That may be happening somewhere. My sole experience was that the entire cost was detailed on screen before I hit “ENTER”. I knew precisely the pricing details. Things may be different now (seven years have passed).
Cheaper Than Dirt has been on my shit list for about a decade, when they decided they were gonna sell 30 round AR mags for $100 each. Fuck those guys. Gougers like that are why so many shooters go to big box chain stores like Walmart, guilt free.
Well…we knew this was coming if Biden got elected…
Has happened before…will happen again.
Simply supply and demand.
CTD has done this a long time during many shortages.
I stopped buying from them 20 years ago when they screwed me over on a refund.
Best 25 dollars lost.
Never have to deal with their stealing again.
There are obviously a lot of opinions here. I’ve got mine. Though I’m conflicted.
But here is a simple point of fact.
WHOLESALE PRICES OF FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION HAVE NOT CHANGED.
I have access to distributor pricing through a friend who is a FFL. The wholesale box of FMJ 9mm is still under $10. My friend, a small time FFL can’t actually get any. Its all going to the big dealers.
Who are marking it up to $50.
It’s all about risk and time to payment. I would bet there are contracts in place between wholesale and retail that help to smooth out the business models of both.
Wholesale gets paid on delivery. The retail is at greater risk because they are going to buy at one price and hope they can sell it for a better price, while operating a business now and hoping for payment in the near future.
In order to stay within the pricing schedule, I would bet they have to buy a certain quantity from the wholesaler. This helps the manufacturer to accurately forecast their revenue by knowing they have hedged against price fluctuation.
We do the same thing in the oil and gas business. 50-80% of our production is sold at an agreed-upon price, regardless of the spot price that day. It’s a calculated gamble.
If you have access to wholesale prices, do you have access to wholesale purchases as well? I mean by the book, not “though a friend” deals. If so, kindly share that information with the rest of us!
But understand, doing so will put the squeeze on supply to many other retailers out there, consequently driving up price even further.
The Labor Theory of Value died in the mid 19th Century. Prices are not set by cost. They are set by the balance supply and demand. The Demand curve for guns and ammo shifted to right in the extreme. Prices should follow suit.
Don’t forget subjectivity.
That is incorporated into the demand curve. Just call me Dr. TDI.
That is absolutely incorrect. Its generally agreed that there are 3 pricing models.
1) Cost-based pricing. Your cost is X. You apply Y markup, your price is Z.
2) Competition based pricing – you base your pricing on what you need to be competitive.
3) Value based pricing – you base your pricing on what you think the value of your product (or service) will be in the marketplace. In other words, whatever the market will take.
Normally firearms and ammunition are based on primarily Competition based pricing. Of course cost plays a factor. If the price of Z is necessarily low to be competitive that your markup (Y) is too small. then you don’t enter the market.
These days its Value based pricing purely. There is no consideration for cost or competition.
You are confusing supply cost with market clearing prices. You must be an accountant. There are two sides to the market. Your cost plus may attract few buyers, you know like the Edsel?
If your demand curve sets the price below cost, that will still not be the price. Witness the Bugatti Veyron. No way the market will support a 250 mph, $2.5 million car, so very few are sold, but the price is *never* coming down. Result? Bugatti has been in business around 75 years, has not yet produced their 3500th car.
“No way the market will support a 250 mph, $2.5 million car”
Custom items such as that do not constitute a “market” in the classical sense; i.e. a commodity. These situations are outliers, with their own “rules” of commerce.
a 250 mph, $2.5 million car,
1 to 1.8 million will put in a clean low miles (under 10,000) USED Veyron… Depends on color and, of course, options (yes there are options) Drove a Lamborghini Murcielago once, guy put twin turbos on the thing got up to 202 at TX2K (had more but Just wanted to go 200mph).. Can’t imagine 250 with the street inches from your ass… OBTW 1st Bugatti was built in 1909 roughly 111 yrs in business…
Bugatti has been in business around 75 years, has not yet produced their 3500th car
Another Bugatti OBTW…. Bugatti is owned by Volkswagen and the engine in the Veyron is actually 4 VW 4 cyl engines siamesed together.. to make a W-16
Sorry Larry.
The demand curve does not set the price by itself.
The price is set at the intersection of the supply curve and the demand curve.
You never mentioned the supply curve.
Bugatti controls the quantity supplied, thereby shifting the supply curve to make it intersect with the demand curve at the price they want to charge.
This is Econ 101 stuff.
Don,
That’s the only aspect of the whole process that’s actually a “problem” (irrational response to the market).
Demand jumps = price jumps. Everyone gets a slice of the pie – or do they? If the manufacturer – the only player who can influence supply – is the only one who chooses to be “nice” and “not gouge”, then every penny of the price increase is simple short-term profit for the largely non-value-added players (wholesalers, retailers, speculators). The optimum response would be to boost MSRP, hold a substantial share of the difference, and use a portion to capitalize production for the longer-term mutual benefit of the manufacturer and consumer alike.
They’re still in business? I always thought their name was intentionally ironic. I stopped doing business with them post-Sandy Hook too due to their shipping BS. Midway has been my go to.
But really, if you’re buying now you’re part of the panic and to blame for these prices. Didn’t buy in the previous 3 years? Sorry, you’re too late. Pay attention next time and buy when you hear that ammo manufacturers are shutting down production due to over-supply. Wait it out and learn a lesson for next time. Let’s hope there’s a next time.
If I was a gun ammo/retailer I’d be selling everything at market rate right now, because after the first 100 days of Kamala’s administration most of my stock would become illegal/increasingly regulated.
The range where I am a member sells S&B 9MM range ammo at $18.95/box, limit one. The gun store up the street sells at market rate, $39.95/box, no limit. CTD has it at $54.95/box, Gun Broker Dot Com at $35.00.
The market is all over the place.
“The market is all over the place.”
As it should be.
Yup. That’s when you know it’s “free.”
I’d undercut the middle price and send it off, assuming that was above my cost.
I started to buy from there around March 2020 and I noticed big change in price till now!! 9mm. Etc 223. So yes something has happened to the price it went up .. but I always gotten my item.. just cost more.
I have only purchased magazines from CTD. I just did a comparison between Ruger dot com and CTD, and CTD was a bit cheaper. No complaints. But holy hell, their firearm prices are ridiculous. Still not sure that’s price gouging, though.
This has only been occurring (to my knowledge) forever. Or at least since the Obama Administration. Good on the AG for doing to little to late.
I don’t see how CTD took money from people without their consent for goods. Sure didn’t get any money from me, for the last 10 years even. At the most their name is misleading and their claim of being a discounter of any items is also misleading.
But go on and accuse them of gouging. Just let us know what the threshold is and what a normal fair price is and also who determined it and how.
Once the goods run out at a low price there will be none. Then people can complain the shelves are bare and it’s someone else’s fault.
CTD has been doing this stuff since at least 1994.
If you don’t like the prices don’t buy. If some suckers buy that is on the suckers. If there is one price at the end of checking out and another price gets charged to your card that is fraud. increasing prices between the web page and the checkout may be bad business, but it isn’t fraud. Look at the damn total price they are charging BEFORE you put your card number in.
Look at the price being charged before clicking “Place Order”.
I sent Cheaper Than Dirt a couple of e-mails raising hell about their price gouging, but I never did hear from them…..and, I quit buying from them.
Plenty of opinions about CTD and markets, but none addressing the real problem.
While it’s true that the state has the legitimate power to sue or prosecute (upon probable cause) a private entity, our adversarial system means, in effect, the AG is their opponent’s lawyer.
How the fuck does their opponent’s lawyer get to “direct” anyone to do anything without a finding in a court of law?!
The people who read TTAG are a small subset of gun owners.
Most here are experienced, but expect other, non-experienced people to just somehow know how to navigate what they’ve never navigated before.
There are millions of new gun owners, and more who are fairly new to guns.
CTD does not cater to us, but to those newer, inexperienced people. They don’t understand about Ammoseek. They do understand the words “SALE!”
From the article: “The AG’s office identified over 4,000 sales that involved price gouging and has directed Cheaper Than Dirt to pay $402,786 in refunds to consumers, according to court documents filed this month.” Undoubtedly, CTD will object to the directed payout, and this will go to court. But the publicity will be hard on CTD, and they will lose business, whether they win or lose. This is the point of this whole exercise. We all agree we don’t deal with CYD because of their high prices and questionable ethics, and this whole thing will make more people aware of their practices.
Yes, the buy should be aware, and this will give more buyers the knowledge they need to do so.
There are millions of new gun owners, and more who are fairly new to guns.
CTD does not cater to us, but to those newer, inexperienced people. They don’t understand about Ammoseek. They do understand the words “SALE!”
So you are suggesting that ALL of these “newbies” are idiots who have never participated in an on-line purchase prior to buying a gun and are just too stupid to figure out how to search for the best prices on ammo and gun accessories… WOW..
“…but expect other, non-experienced people to just somehow know how to navigate what they’ve never navigated before.”
I don’t expect newbies to be experienced regarding guns, safety, training, etc. I do expect them to be intelligent enough to research what they buy, and understand what they are seeing. Same as if they were buying Bose speakers online. It truly is no different. If they ask someone for help buying other things, wherever, and don’t ask for help regarding firearms and accessories, why should POTG be concerned.
It is always the responsibility of the buyer to be/become informed, always.
Setting an insanely, artificially, high price for something outside of general market increases to do lower supply/increased demand, in our internet-driven world, has an effect most folks might not think about. It sets a new ceiling for whatever the product may be, which allows others to raise their prices much higher, as well, beyond what the market had formerly “created naturally” due to supply/demand. IOW, if an item is going for $10 in normal times, and $20 in a shortage/high demand situation, and a company sets the ceiling at $100, then others can instantly jump their prices to $50 and seem like a “bargain”, even though the “natural” price for the item was $20. The original $10 “normal times” price AND the $20 high demand price had both already calculated profit into those figures, according to the situation. And thus it becomes difficult to blame others because if they are the only ones who keep their price at the “natural high demand” price of $20, they lose out compared to the competition because their supply will sell quickly at the lower price, but the other companies will still make money at the $50 price, again compared to the one company selling at $100 for the same item. That is how the internet, and one or two companies, create gouging.
Many will call their local FFL a crook. In good times, you shop the big stores while the shop owner makes his money on reloads(he does himself) and consignment guns(that you bith about his cut). He keeps this store open, pays rent and wages for help, but many months go by where he sees very little profit.
Now comes the bad times for all. Unrest in the cities, rioting, etc. So now, everyone want more for there old used guns.(Why are they selling them? Is there a problem with the gun?). So now, the store owner has to raise the price on that used gun(that wasn’t wanted anymore), and try to make sure that it is not defective(he will get blamed for any problems, even though it is not his).
He is forced to raise his price on reloads, he can’t get supplies and new ammo is very hard to get for him.
He might be in a little better situation, but chances are that he is selling guns that he has had sitting in his shop(taking space, unsold) for a couple of years.
Brick and mortar shops cost a lot to keep going, and trying to compete with the big box stores is a losing proposition. The only thing this guy has going for him is his good service, the fact that he can do things that others can’t or won’t.
Don’t blame him, you caused it by shopping elsewhere.
If the issue with CTD is deliberately misleading pricing that’s fraud and not price gouging.
But what this price gauging thing? What do you want to do about it? Do you want government action? If that:s what you want then how could object to the government saying what kind of guns you can buy or what the capacity your magazine should be?
If all you want to do is not buy at the stated price then you are just telling us is that your demand curve hits the x-axis to the left of the market clearing price and you are whining about it.
In the DFW area it is only the foolish and noobs who shop at CTD.
How anyone can stick up for these DIRTBAGS (potential new name for these guys) is beyond me. I’ll never do business with them again.
Bait and switch is a crime, even if there is no sale, but the federal law is generally only enforced within 40 miles of DC, because that is where the FTC staff is located.
They’ve been reported to Texas AG before. Nothing came of it.
You can add gunbroker.com to the list of price gouging.
About damn time! Cheaper Than Dirt pulled the same shit in 2008 after Obama got elected. However, I would have rather seen the free market abandoned Cheaper Than Dirt. They’re a bunch of “Dirt” bags!
I agree. I went into this whole thing with 40,000 rounds. Anybody with half a brain that’s own guns for awhile knows enough to keep at least a years supply of ammo on hand. A really smart gun owner knows to keep a years worth of reloading supplies on hand. I actually sold 5000 rounds to a friend of mine a month ago with no mark up in price from what I paid a year ago. Gougers suck
“Read the fine print”, comes to mind. If you do not check to see if there have been any changes or misunderstandings between yourself and the seller, it is your failure to protect yourself. If you choose to proceed and then complain later, it is your fault. If you choose to do business with them again you are supporting their deceptive business practices and should expect more of it. Consider the price of a Draft beer at your local pub. It may cost $2.00. That same Draft beer at a Major League stadium may cost you $12.00. You control your wallet, you decide to pay the final price presented to you or cancel the transaction. This all seems silly to me. We want the government out of our day to day life and seek to purchase Self Defense Weapons but when a person foolishly makes a transaction they cry for help from the Government to go after the Perceived “Bad Guy”.
CTD sucks, I remember 8 years ago after the Sandy Hook goat fuck they were charging 899 for a case of Lake City. I said “SCREW” these guys and haven’t even been on their site since then.
In Florida the law is simple and concise… Ammunition and firearms are classified as “commodities”.
Selling commodities, household essentials, rentals, fuel, etc. after a declared state of emergency at “unconscionable” prices(“grossly exceeding” average prices in the 30-day period preceding the emergency).
2nd-degree misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of up to $1000 and/or up-to 60 days in jail for a first offense; $25,000 for multiple violations within a 24-hour period.
*The governor declared a state of emergency in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, activating § 501.160. The price gouging hotline has also been activated.
I’m a fan of the free market, and I get the whole “make hay while the sun shines”. However, I’m also not lazy in searching for product. If I don’t like the listed price on gouger sites like “Cheaper Than Dirt”, I send a negative email and move on to shop elsewhere. That’s the choice in the marketplace. These fuckers haven’t received a dime from me since the mid-2000s. I saw their gouging take off in the period of 2011-2014 and simply decided that I wouldn’t purchase from them. I’ve since recommended that people not buy there because of these practices.
I do think the TX Attorney General getting involved though is a tad bit much. You’d think he’d have better things to do and I think it’s government overreach. I don’t want a government agency telling me what to charge for something. If “Cheaper Than Dirt” can collect what they’re charging, than good for them. It’s just not going to be from my pocket.
I just generally have a problem with the concept of “price gouging”. The solution always seems to be more government intervention. “Fair” is how you treat someone else; it is a one-way street.
As detailed, no business has a moral obligation to go out of business by selling product at “fair”* prices during a disaster/panic. The reason people “panic buy” is because the fear complete disruption/elimination of the supply chain for an unknown period. Businesses require the same supply chain stability. When certainty of supply is absent, businesses, entities that provide income for people, respond by protecting existing inventory. Selling product as “fair” prices puts the people of the business at as much risk of scarcity as people buying the products.
*”Fair” pricing usually means, “Holy crap! I was unprepared, and I don’t want to pay more than I would without the panic.” (Hint: Grasshopper and Ants) A less generous description, probably more accurate, “I want what I want what I want, when I want it, at a price I like.”
I fear I am less open minded about residential foreclosures during calamities. (Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.)
Its horrifying to see American’s such as the above “Sam” mock Americans for getting robbed by a democrat run and owned business! Its equally horrifying to see that folks still purchase from CTD, folks democrat owned gun sellers such as CTD is the last place on earth an American should patronize….
I bought 10 FNG mags at a very low price, after 2 days, my money was refunded and they said the were sold out. I think it’s because they realized how cheap they were and cancelled the sale so they could raise the price.