The agency famous for once declaring a shoe string a machine gun has now targeted Florida-based company Rare Breed Triggers. An ATF letter to Rare Breed is floating around social media stating that the FRT-15 trigger has been classified as a machine gun under the National Firearms Act and that Rare Breed needs to cease and desist sales of the FRT-15 and contact the ATF within five days to develop a plan to address those machine guns already distributed.
The ATF concluded the Rare Breed triggers to be a combination of parts designed and intended to convert a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. The ATF’s examination found that the Rare Breed trigger allows a firearm to “shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, with a single continuous pull of the trigger.”
The FRT in FRT-15 stands for Forced Reset Trigger, and while I’ve handled one, I understand that they still require one pull of the trigger to function. The user pulls the trigger, the weapon fires, and the FRT-15 forces a reset of the trigger. If the user keeps continuous force on the trigger, it will fire again.
Here’s Rare Breed’s explanation of how the FRT-15 works . . .
This is not an automatic function by any means, and the weapon fires one shot per trigger pull.
ATF Goes Rogue on the FRT-15
The ATF must’ve rolled an above 15 on their D20 and decided it’s time to go rogue once again. The FRT-15 does not seem to meet the definition of a machine gun, but then again, neither did bump stocks.
According to court documents, Rare Breed filed for declaratory and injunctive relief against all Defendants on the 2nd of August, as well as a temporary restraining order, which appeared to be denied on 8/05.
According to court documents, the team at Rare Breed has a hearing this morning in a Florida court regarding the ATF’s action. I’ve reached out for comments from Rare Breed Triggers and have not heard back at the time of publishing. I imagine they are gearing up for the legal battle, and I wish them nothing but luck. Watch this space for updates.
This I think was always a foregone conclusion. Right or wrong most people expected it to happen. Rare Breed even after the fight will have made their money, walk away with their tail tucked and hopefully not give up a customer list. Most people will have gotten to play with a MG for a bit and won’t be charged unless they do something stupid down the line with them.
The courts need to rule on this FOR the company and buyer for a change so this will teach ATF and other unstable govt. agencies a lesson they cannot just do as they please. Americans don’t have time in their lives to entertain the Romper Room antics of the federal government.
Nothing what so ever to do with POTUS DJT. It’s day and night. Either POTUS DJT acted back then or Congress Would Have and that meant No Binary Triggers, etc. That is according to Allen Gottlieb.
When the letter was written Jim Crow Gun Control joe was not between a rock and a hard spot with congress. The still unanswered question for those who jumped on POTUS DJT and continue to do so…What would you have done?
Veto.
Trump was a great president (and should still be the president), but there’s no need to pretend he’s perfect. His administrative bump-stock ban/confiscation was politically expedient, but also incredibly short-sighted and harmful — and right now we’re seeing exactly the kind of harm I predicted when he told the ATF to go for it.
We see it time and time again. A Republican provides the toolkit or sets a precedent that you’d never let a Democrat get away with…it’s okay if *our* guy exercises this little bit of extra power or opens up this little government loophole, after all, he means no harm…and then the Democrats weaponize it.
Why are you bringing Trump in to this at all? You’re always trying to defend Trump and you wave him around like some sort of victory banner. He did us no justice by running his damn gun-ignorant NY big mouth about bump stocks and red flag laws. There is no defense for him at all in this regard.
We’re focused on the issue of the FRT15 trigger, ATF authority, and the possible fate of FRT15 owners. This is what we’re concerned about because ATF has too much privilege when certain clowns are in office.
There was a Republican majority in the Senate for the entirety of his tenure, and a House majority when the Vegas shooting occurred. Nothing would have even made it to the Senate floor under McConnell. Trump was either too cowardly to make a moral stand, or didn’t give a care about 2A other than to say a few words to get NRA endorsements. Instead, his BATFE set the precedent that it got to redefine what a “single trigger pull” is in relation to machine guns.
FYI, Trump was the most pro-2A president we’ve had since Reagan.
That’s a fact, Jack.
Reagan’s administration banned the carrying of firearms on millions of acres of federally managed lands, robbing millions of Americans of their Second Amendment rights on taxpayer owned lands.
The Democrats’ CARD act of 2009 restored those rights to American citizens.
Thanks Obama!
WELL … JACK-OF-ALL-KNOWLEDGE … HERE WE GO …
Reagan wasn’t pro gun NEITHER. Some of the worst and nationally most destructive legislation ever signed in to law was under Reagan’s watch, namely; the unconstitutional Hughes Act and the mysterious ways it was passed by Congress, and amnesty for illegal aliens.
Countless US citizens have suffered in more ways than one under this screwed up discretion of Reagan and now similarly repeated by the GUN-IGNORANT NEW YORKER TRUMP. The Hughes Act passage was the slippery slope US communists were hoping for and our gun rights have been sliding towards HELL since.
Whether you want to admit it or not NONE of the Presidents are actually pro-gun. They DO have veto power, Ya know?
Adding VEPRs to the Russian embargo was done under Trump.
That one flew underneath a lot of radars.
Just keepin ya honest.
Reagan wasn’t pro gun NEITHER. Some of the worst and nationally most destructive legislation ever signed in to law was under Reagan’s watch
Many forget that Reagan was a California Democrat LONG before HE declared HIMSELF to be a Republican… You can take the slut out of the trailer park but you CAN’T take the slut out of the slut…
Except his legacy is he enacted nothing nothing nothing pro-gun (either legislatively or EO), and he banned bump stocks, promised to sign an AWB, and publicly stated, take the guns first, due process later.
The fact you think he was the most pro-2A president we’ve had since Reagan, just shows how bad things are.
Saying that doesn’t change the fact he went against gun owners.
well except for that bump stock thing….
That’s a pretty low bar to set.
There has never been a pro-gun president, and there is no pro-gun political party. Gun owners are to the Republican Party, what black voters are to the Democrats. The GOP has had majorities in both houses of Congress and the White House on several occasions. Yet the 1934 Act, 1968 Act, and Huges Amendment are still in place. The only thing the GOP ever accomplishes is temporarily reducing federal income taxes and increasing military spending. They’ve really never accomplished anything of lasting consequence except maybe winning the Cold War. But in 2021, does it feel like we defeated communism? No, there has never been a pro-gun administration. If there we had one, this sort of thing wouldn’t be possible right now because the ATF wouldn’t have the power it has.
There has never been a pro-gun president,
Actually THAT is not entirely true Theodore Roosevelt was an avid hunter and gun collector, he actually carried a 45 revolver while fulfilling his duties as the 26th President of the United States… It’s said that he actually had a very low opinion of anyone who did not hunt or know how to use a firearm
I think the company was pushing their luck with this design.
Come on guys. This is the ATF – the text of the law doesn’t matter anymore.
The ATF turned bump stock and shoelaces into machine guns. Apparently, they can turn anything they want into a machine gun; they’re magic that way.
There is a very good chance this ends rarebreed. IF they lose, it likely will. the amount of money it costs to take on the government is ridiculous. I personally think the company is a bunch of not nice people and may not deserve to have tasted success. BUT. They created a good product on the correct side of regulations. The ATF doesnt like it and frankly do not care about the law and rules they have in their books. That is where we all need to come together and support rare breed. with these rules, all semi auto triggers have an argument to be considered machine guns. allowing a government agency to do as they wish is a very dangerous precedent. We all get it. On both sides. The cat and mouse game. Sure. The flip side of it is IT GOES BOTH WAYS!!!!! Today is the ATF, Tomorrow is the FBI, then it is your local law enforcement. Some day it is your family. We should be thankful that rare breed is able to take this challenge on. No one to my knowledge has ever been able to or done so.
The AFT has abused their power enough!!
Quit licking their boots. Just blows my mind that people have “well what did you expect”. The law is supposed to be black and white!!! just because you choose to walk close to line, as long as it is not crossed, it is not crossed. BOTH Ways. This is the ATF crossing on our side of the line. We must PUSH THEM BACK!!! As much as I dislike you rbt.
Thank you Rare Breed for fighting for us all.
I would expect the government to obey the and Constitution.
It would be a pity if Rare Breed’s servers were accidentally wiped clean “Like with a rag”.
Worked just fine for Hillary so why not?
why not? Because Hillary, and MiniJoe, and Bill Jeff, are all members of the Protected Class-wealthy, politically connected, untouchable because they Know Things about other members of the politically connected, wealthy Protected Class.
You, me, and Rare Breed are Others. Others, as you must know, are not in the Protected Class.
That’s why.
Not directed at GRA, but it’s a shame this has to be pointed out to nearly everyone. The on going’s of the last year in my personal sphere put a fine exclamation point on that statement (WuFlu not withstanding).
Not that I needed convincing, been saying the same for decades.
Well said my friend.
Somebody please correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t ATF have to sign off on an example of this before such inventions are actually marketed?
If so it seems their only position at this time would be a civil lawsuit to stop production of this trigger but not a criminal retaliation. This letter is openly threatening and if they’ve already approved such a device then they’re starting out with this in a totally unprofessional manner. If they test and approve something as being safe and also lawful we should be able to rely on their decision as being binding and credible.
The practice of them flip-flopping on their decisions after certain folks have spent money on something in trust ATF has cleared it as legal should not become a constant standard of theirs and it must be stopped FIRST before any other actions are taken to reverse their decisions. Makes some folks wonder if ATF isn’t feeling empowered by the mindless and corrupted clowns in office so they’re now pursuing their own liberal agenda? Absolutely ridiculous and it’s time their enforcement existence is reviewed and permanently changed.
Its considered (by many) a wise business decision to get a letter from the tech branch so that you don’t receive a cease and desist. Last I knew, Rare Breed never tried to get one. Instead going for the ask for forgiveness method. Like I said, made their money already
That’s really not a smart way to do things. If that’s the case there stands to be a legal mess one way or the other. Time for a significant amount of ATF power to be pulled.
Agreed on both counts. Before Trump had the bump stock banned they were on firmer ground and it may have made sense to get a letter. Nowadays though I think they probably knew it was only a matter of time, saw the fallout from bump stocks and figured the profit was going to be greater than the fight. Retain a lawyer and start production.
Personally I think the ATF (and Trump) needs a PP slap over the bump stock ban as well but the likelihood of that is next to nil.
“the sign off letter that use to come, with the purchase of every bumpstock. Approved during the Obama/Biden administration“
“Before Trump had the bump stock banned they were on firmer ground“
Tell me again about how Obama/Biden want to take your gun rights and Trump was here to protect Americans gun rights…
I need a good laugh this afternoon.
Hey wait a minute, isn’t today Reinstatement Day, when Mike Lindell said Donald Trump would be reinstated as president of the United States of America?
Looks like I’ve already got my belly laugh for the day, I guess the Italian satellites lost the ‘Signal’?
Man, I couldn’t write this stuff if I tried.
I’ve been keeping a quart jar of shine in the freezer for a special occasion, I’ll have that this afternoon with a little lemonade to celebrate the reinstatement of grifter-in-chief, Donald J Trump.
WAIT GUYS!
Cancel that request,
I don’t need that belly laugh anymore…
…just looked at my dick
Not working, minor, nobody can be that stupid, and you’re not amusing.
I still have a copy of the sign off letter that use to come, with the purchase of every bumpstock. Approved during the Obama/Biden administration.
The Executive Branch giveth. And the Executive Branch taketh away.
Why,
They can just change their mind whenever they want so the paper is useless to begin with.
YOU, Sir, are wise in the ways of Politicians.
I see the same issue being present too many times now.
Also, notice this is from a Field Office in Tampa, not from the BATFE Firearms Technology Branch in DC. This is the same crap they tried to pull with the Honey Badger regarding pistol braces, a local agent writes a letter and now the manufacturer ends up going to court to fight it.
Although this company should have an approval/opinion letter regarding their product, BATFE is like your crazy ex-girlfriend, they can change their mind anytime, about anything and then change it back again, etc.
Although the BATFE will lose in the end, the victim has to spend their time and money to win, just to stay in business and out of jail. Like the “Bump Stocks”, all these triggers have to be deemed contraband and either turned over to BATFE or destroyed, as all new civilian machine guns were illegally banned in 1986.
“as all new civilian machine guns were illegally banned in 1986“
Thanks to Ronald Reagan who signed this bill into law and made sure you would not be able to afford an automatic weapon.
And I suppose you want us to think that the Democrats are our friends?
Yes, Republicans suck and have a long record of stabbing gun owners in the back. They know we’re a captive demographic, because as bad as they are, Democrats are worse — if you’re a gun owner, they’ll spit in your face *then* stab you in the back…or the front…repeatedly…while campaigning on promises to rape your rights even better next time.
Anybody that claims Democrats would either respect or protect the Second Amendment is both a liar and a clown.
“And I suppose you want us to think that the Democrats are our friends?”
No, without doubt, the Democrats are an order of magnitude worse than the Republicans.
However, I enjoy being a disingenuous ignoramus troll.
This gets you going so I enjoy it.
“Somebody please correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t ATF have to sign off on an example of this before such inventions are actually marketed?”
No. Only if its an NFA item.
The manufacturer submits a form 2 to the ATF when they start producing NFA items. The ATF then signs off on those.
This trigger, because it does not meet (apparently) the letter-of-the-law definition for an NFA item (“machine gun”) it wasn’t required to have a form 2 submitted so its pretty unlikely the manufacturer submitted one for approval
If you’re 100% correct on this then thank you for the correction. I’m very comfortable with you being 100% correct, I might add.
That SHOULD win the case. They don’t seem to be charging RBT with failing to file a Form 2 as a manufacturer but trying a gray route of simply ordering the manufacturing be stopped because of a baseless allegation of full auto fire. Seems they know this is all nonsense yet they’re going to try it anyway.
How is that any different than the way the ATF has flip-flopped with pistol braces, even before Bozo Biden stole the election?
Never saw THAT coming?…. Just one more charge to add to the ever increasing list…. Fuk Em….
Excellent article Travis – thank you.
I figured such companies would get their approval beforehand. The bump stock fiasco is an overreach of authority and I think it may eventually be won. If the trigger wasn’t ATF tech-approved prior to marketing it’s a different case than the bump stock nonsense. I hope Rare Breed wins regardless.
Other triggers will be harder to beat in court as there’s letters of approval on them.
I predict binary triggers are next
“I predict binary triggers are next”
In Florida, binaries are already a felony to possess.
It makes me wonder – Has anyone in Florida challenged that law yet?
“Has anyone in Florida challenged that law yet?”
Yeah, no. Not yet anyway.
More’s the pity, but other than having no horse directly in that race, I’ve been up to my earballs in legal fees. Could’ve gotten a TAC-50C & a grip of food for it with what I spent on unnecessary lawyer & ‘non-punitive’ state case maintenance fees.
Won’t be me either, I’m getting out & heading for firearm friendlier vista’s. As a celebratory gift to myself given the recent changes of status, I picked up a niiiiiice little something from XLR.
“As a celebratory gift to myself given the recent changes of status, I picked up a niiiiiice little something from XLR.”
Congrats on that, than!
Were you the one who had some Nelson Pass parts hiding somewhere? I’m getting a hankering to clone a FirstWatt if possible, as a headphone amp. If you do and can be convinced to part with a pair, ask TTAG’s Dan for my contact info. We have some some similar interests…
I am not surprised at all. Under Florida law it was already likely illegal, and I think I’m surprised it wasn’t Florida who got them first. But their “office” is actually located at a legal practice. I’m sure that was by design and they knew all along somebody would come along and challenge them. Hope the buyers paid cash…
“I am not surprised at all. Under Florida law it was already likely illegal,…”
Does the Rare Breed fire twice for each pull and release of the trigger? if so, yeah, in Florida it’s ‘Verboten’… 🙁
As near as I can tell, it doesn’t. What it DOES do, as the video says, is to ‘force’ the trigger reset by moving the trigger and the shooter’s finger forward instead of requiring the shooter to physically release pressure on the trigger to let it return, which allows the trigger to be immediately pressed rearward as soon as the bolt carrier returns to battery just by holding rearward pressure. Instead of having a ‘disconnector,’ it has a pivoting locking bar at the rear of the trigger body to prevent the trigger letting the hammer follow the bolt forward, which would result in fully-automatic (unreliable and iffy, but fully-automatic) fire. The device clearly brings the trigger back to firing position as rapidly as the bolt carrier cycles, without the necessity of the shooter thinking about trigger reset at all.
Therefore, the only thing that the device does is decrease the time interval between one rearward trigger motion and the next, thus increasing the rate of fire but still requiring a rearward pull/movement of the trigger for each shot.
I think.
That being the case, this doesn’t seem to match AT ALL the makings of a ‘machine gun’–one rearward pull, one bullet fired, and no more.
Of course, that won’t make any difference.
Good luck with that ATF. They had your number from day one. They sold at gun shows for CASH ONLY. I was tempted 2 months ago but didn’t want to ‘pull the trigger’ on that purchase.
Looking at the video, its easy to see why its thought to be a “machine gun”. However, looks can be deceiving – both for and against Rare Breed in this case.
Basically, according to law, if the trigger needs to be pulled for each shot it is NOT a machine gun.
One look: Rare Breed knows and intentionally deigned for, that a constant pressure on the trigger, even though the reset is forced which necessitates another trigger pull that constant pressure is always there and the reset happens so fast that its negligible in its effect for semi-auto fire result as long as the constant pressure is applied. Thus the trigger reset is intentionally “circumvented” from the normal action of a single trigger press in a semi-auto rifle as the law intended by the constant pressure which the Rare Breed trigger intentionally intended to happen to provide an “automatic fire” like result.
Another look: The letter of the law is the letter of the law, and when the intent of the law is clear the letter of the law can also be said to be the intent as well. The intent of the law in terms of trigger pull between semi-auto and automatic (machine gun) weapons is clear. But the letter of the law can still be ambiguous (as it is in this case) even though the intent is clear because it may not (or does not) clearly, for this case, describe or include a time period between the single trigger pulls that must exist and it does not define that constant pressure can not be on the trigger and it does not define that a reset function must not function the way the Rare Breed trigger does.
Rare Breed, in the video, defines a sort of “hybrid” approach that lies between both semi and auto fire “capability” in terms of end result. The end result is constant pressure is applied to the trigger for this product to get an automatic fire “like” result (basically very fast semi-auto fire because the trigger does reset after each round is fired). But the problem is once again as i said at the beginning of this post, that looks can be deceiving. Rare Breed freely admits by the function and video they know there is an automatic fire “like” result.
The intent of the law was to place machine guns into a separate class and relies on the trigger pull and the sequence to determine this. But its clear that Rare Breed intended to decrease this trigger pull activity until its negligible in the end result which is machine gun like.
So, in the end Rare Breed will be forced to convince the court there was no such intent and the trigger does comply with the letter and intent of the law. Looks can be deceiving, and you can bet that video with this article, is going to be presented in court and it can be very damaging because it shows the end result was machine gun like which the intent of the law classes as “machine gun” activity. But, the fact that the trigger does also function as the law intended for semi-auto weapons, and the fact that anyone with a mil-spec trigger can apply constant pressure the trigger, and there is no prescribed time between trigger pulls for a semi or automatic weapon trigger – might be the key but it depends on the court and the Rare Breed lawyers presentation.
While my post “awaits moderation” for no reason whatsoever…The darn thing works too good. Next it’ll be anything less than a 12 lb. trigger is a machine gun.
“While my post “awaits moderation” for no reason whatsoever…”
It happens occasionally to mine as well, it ain’t personal…
The problem isn’t necessary the spam filter but that it takes at best 12 hours to get approved and at worst a day or two. It hampers discussions and paints people as fools if they aren’t allowed to respond in a timely manner. Kind of like peer review of unpopular research; lock it up with process.
Yeah, what he said. Good summation, Counselor.
Your point about the video being just about the worst possible defense for the device imaginable is accurate, I’m afraid–“No, this isn’t a machine gun, but By GOD! it sure acts like one! Get yours today, Kids!”
Nothing Trump About it. The choice back then was between POTUS doing something or congress taking the wheel and doing something. It was buh bye to bump stock contraptions otherwise it would have been buh bye to Binary Triggers, etc.
This is 100% straight from Jim Crow Gun Control joe’s behind. And each and every politically inept snot nosed bump stock Trump Bashing crybaby who looked no further than some turd with 35,000 incomplete sentence posts on ar15.comedyclub owns it. Yeah man that pivot pin that won’t seat doesn’t matter because you’re GTG and I just cannot wait to say GTG and look important so you’re GTG no matter what.
democRats to the left of me and too many moron gun owners to the right who like to hear themselves talk. The return address on that letter belongs to a lot of people including the idiot author who stooped to tie POTUS DJT to it.
Always someone running defense for when a repub bans guns. Do Regan and Bush 1 next.
Ummmmm… Who banned what guns?
500 people got shot genius.
You mean in the dump of liberal and leftist Chicago? You mean the city with a rainbow incompetent and racist mayor?
Do you think that maybe if they arresterd, charged, sentenced and locked up the criminals that are the shooters and kept them in jail it’d slow down the murder rate a bit? After all it’s the criminal that pulls the trigger. The gun doesn’t jump up ,run out the door and begin shooting people all by it’s self…. genius. BTW why doesn’t all those Illinois and NY “‘strictest gun laws in the country” do anything to stop the erroneously named “gun violence”? Hmm, let’s see…could it be it’s because when you deprive law abiding citizens the right to keep and bear arms for self defense, that it’s only the criminals (who do not obey said “gun laws”) that are the only ones left that now have guns,…. genius?
Ahhh the king and the kings men yet again
Coming Soon: AFT declares belt loops to be machine gun sears. Issues Letter to manufacturers to Cease and Desist…Levi’s scrambles to comply. All current owners of loop equipped pants will register and pay $200 to the AFT per pair. The affected items may not be worn during the anticipated 12 – 24 month Approval period.
The Letter also stated that Elastic waistbands are under review for possible regulation.
And they are going to come for poor old Jerry Miculek’s trigger finger.
One humanely amputated finger is a small price to pay For The Children and Biden’s piece of mind.
Levi’s r.
A great cowboy jean company that lobbies against gunms.
Yup, I stopped buying Levi’s years ago ’cause of their early wokeness. Been wearing Carhartt’s ..they fit my old, tired body better anyhoo.
And doesn’t allow CCW in their stores. I quit buying Levis. Wrangler wearer now, at least until they too do something stupidly anti gun. Likely won;t be long though. Guess I’ll go pantsless then?
Well you know, authoritarian governments have forced you to buy products from private sellers and clothe yourself in public spaces or risk immediate incarceration, there’s nothing in the constitution ordering anyone to wear clothes.
Exercise your freedom!
This is what I tell all the boys I meet at the bar.
That, and I ask them if they “love” chickens as much as I do.
I received an email from Rare Breed at 1907 yesterday saying they had 150 triggers in stock. Interesting they sent that after getting the ATF letter telling to cease on 26 Jul.
If you mean the FRT-15 – that’s because there is not clear court decision on it yet and the matter is in “contention” before the court today. So they could have as of yesterday at least still been able to sell the triggers as just triggers and not the ATF “machine gun”.
There is another aspect to this. And that aspect is does the ATF have authority to do this to being with? This trigger has been on the market for a while and ATF never did anything about it before, but suddenly its a “machine gun” and the ATF is all spun up about it.
My own personal view is the ATF does not have the authority in this case because they are really stretching the definition to apply and its does not really fit.
Contrary to popular contention the ATF is technically a “constitutional” entity even though its not listed in the constitution. But as they are today they have no constitutional foundation to operate, where as before in their original form many many years ago they had very little constitutional authority in regulation. This is because the ATF was founded based upon the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution and under that their original very little constitutional authority existed in the area of regulation and not law enforcement. Today they are law enforcement and thus operate outside their “constitutional” authority but operate in the bounds of law which is assumed to be constitutional until ruled otherwise. There is nothing in constitution or that founded under constitution allowance that allows a “regulatory” agency to operate as law enforcement, thus as the ATF is today they have no constitutional foundation for existence or operation as law enforcement, but technically they are founded under the constitution.
In 1968 the government switched the Firearms Act from Title 15 to Title 18. Title 18 is for “Crimes and Criminal Procedures.” Under Title 15, the government was within its rightful constitutional jurisdiction of “Commerce and Trade” thus the ATF was constitutional as a regulatory agency for “Commerce and Trade” (regulation) in firearms. But, If the government is not bound by “Commerce and Trade” (regulation) as constitutionally envisioned, they could not enact or enforce laws on citizens who are not acting in the “trade” (e.g. a firearms dealer). So when the government changed this to Title 18 they changed their constitutional powers from “Commerce and Trade” regulation to “Commerce and Trade” (law) enforcement and thus today we have the ATF acting as a law enforcement agency rather than a regulatory agency thus giving them the authority (in law) to enforce regulation (codified in law thus law) in a criminal aspect.
TL;DR
So…a cease and desist letter doesn’t mean cease and desist.
of course it means “cease and desist” but it does not mean “cease and desist” ’cause we say so’ if its before a court to decide. An item before the court is decided by the court not by the agency sending the “cease and desist”.
Thanks for making that crystal fucking clear….
ATF was founded under the made-up, New Deal version of the Interstate Commerce Clause (ICC), where FDR & Co. wordgamed everything under that umbrella to extend their jurisdiction to most of daily life.
The ICC delegated power to Congress to regulate states, to avoid the sorts of barriers, customs inspections, and tax collectors that plagued merchants at dozens of state borders while traveling within the other federation (the Holy Roman Empire) familiar at that time.
“Out of stock” now
Seems odd that having received a C&D on 7/26 they would send an email blast out on 8/8 stating in stock and ready to ship. I bet some people are now looking at tracking numbers with their butts puckered.
In the past, according to the “gun community” on TTAG and elsewhere. “Having a rapid-fire weapon is just a waste of ammunition.” They say there is no need for the ordinary person to have a rapid-fire weapon. And certainly there is no reason for poor people to have a rapid fire weapon. But the rich, criminal or law-abiding, will always be able to afford a real machine gun.
“South Florida elitist billionaire Mike Fernandez loves to brag to the rich and powerful about his “colossal” gun collection which includes many machine guns”
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nra-lobbyist-marion-hammer-gets-the-proverbial-knives-out-for-miguel-fernandez/
They are comfortable with only the military and the police, who got “free” machine guns from the Obama administration, being the only ones with real machine guns. The local police departments didn’t have to pay for them out of their local operating budgets.
“Pelosi Asked For ‘Crew-Manned Machine Guns’ In Washington”
https://dailycaller.com/2021/01/19/ken-cuccinelli-nancy-pelosi-crew-manned-machine-guns/
These are the same gun owners who support the 1968 gun control Act. That banned the importation of long guns that had a bayonet lug on them. Because they say a bayonet is just obsolete.
These gun owners don’t understand the bayonet use history that has happened in their own lifetime. And they are stupid on purpose.
The last known and verified rifle mounted bayonet use was in October 2011 by a British Army lance corporal named Sean Jones who led a squad of soldiers from the Prince of Wales Royal Regiment in a bayonet charge against Taliban fighters in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. After being ambushed and pinned down by Taliban fighters, the 25-year-old ordered his squad to fix bayonets and advance into a hail of machine gun fire. Jones reported that “We had to react quickly, I shouted ‘follow me’ and we went for it”. He was awarded the Military Cross for his actions.
Thank you for posting this. I had heard of this british battle action. But didn’t know all of the details.
If I end up patroling my own nieghborhood. I will have a fixed bayonet on my mossberg 590. Loaded with “flight control” shells.
The British military has a history of going to fixed bayonets in Modern Combat.
From the Falklands war over 30 years ago.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fix-Bayonets-Battle-Goose-Yesterday/dp/B00GV7MQF8
The Second Amendment is not just about guns. The Second Amendment is not about just having a bolt action rifle or a double-barreled shot gun, made with a wooden stock. The Second Amendment is not about hunting.
You scraped this info from the AR15 dot com forum and didn’t even mention it. What a shameless grift.
A ruger 1022 + a binary trigger + BX 25 magazines = A low-cost deterrence for the working man. Or working woman.
I watched the video where the guy that was from Rare Breed compared his trigger to a light match trigger rapid firing 10 round strings. His trigger won by a whopping quarter of a second. Not worth the money or the trouble.
A trigger is a machine gunm?
If a suppressor can be a firearm, why not?
Not a firearm but a controlled item that’s a tax stamp. These legal triggers are headed for the same unconstitutional fate.
The ATF’s motivation for this and other similar tech is to restrict Rate of Fire to some arbitrary number of rounds per minute. They can’t come right out and say that, but everyone (including the ATF) knows that is the truth of the matter.
One trigger pull one round fired. With a built in one minute forced delay between each trigger pull.
650 gunms solves that problem.
That might suit them. I can get off 2-3 shots per second on my old Winchester lever gun, which technically would be between 120-180 rpm. Unfortunately the magazine capacity is somewhat limited. 😉 But that wouldn’t stop them from requiring a NFA tax stamp if they get their way.
Be afraid! Be very afraid!
There are trainers out there. Who will train you how to shoot this way. Now what are the gun grabbers going to do???
The Rifleman Intro
“restrict Rate of Fire to some arbitrary number of rounds per minute”
Exactly this. They are trying to rewrite the law which describes how a machine gun actually works, into a law that describes what a machine gun does.
That’s not their job, nor do they have the authority to make up interpretations that do the same thing.
As always, the trick is getting a court to follow the law.
What the hell is next? Does this mean that a double barrel shotgun with a two stage trigger is a machine gun? How about a volley gun? If these muckrakers had their way, the constitution would be kindling, and nobody but the criminals in government would have guns.
Capable of firing multiple projectiles with a single pull of the trigger.
Sounds like a machine gunm to me.
What’s next you ask? Whatever they can think up to disarm everyone. How about limiting effective range to say 100 yds (or less). That’s been talked about. Accuracy? Of course. No optics allowed, turn in your Schmidt-Bender, Red dot, laser, NVG’s, etc. Those are only for Miltary, FBI,Swat, etc.
I may catch flak for this but I think in this rare instance unlike the “Bump Stock” fiasco the BATFE is correct, the Rare Breed Trigger is a “machine gun”. Of course I think the NFA, GCA and all rulings are violation of the 2nd Amendment and need to be nullified.
Not flak, you’re just an idiot and you are showcasing that well. It is in no way by definition a machinegun.
Read this from Rare Breed to the ATF:
Rare Breed Triggers Complaint Against the ATF and DOJ
https://theinfidel.co/blogs/news/rare-breed-triggers-complaint-against-the-atf-and-doj
Good read. Rare Breed basically says fuck off to the ATF in polite words. Waiting for them to get raided by jack booted thugs anyways ala Ares.
We’ll see what happens, but given that the Akins Accellerator (1) operated on a comparable principle, (2) WAS formally approved by the BATF, (3) was then sold to the public, until (4) the BATF changed its mind and post facto declared it to be a machine gun, and then (5) both the district court and the Eleventh Circuit deferred to the BATF’s interpretations (Chevron deference) and thus let the BATF switcheroo stand, methinks RBT’s case is an extreme long shot.
Only hope I see here is if CTA6 rules en banc in the pending bump stock case that Chevron deference is not appropriate in criminal cases, and SCOTUS affirms . . . then the factual / mechanical arguments made by RBT may see the light of day. But if the courts continue to simply defer to the BATF’s interpretations of the law (per Chevron), it’s over.
Over @ bearingarms.com, it appears Rare Breed is suing the ATF. Rare Breed stated in its filing that four (4) former ATF agents, including former Chief Firearms Technology Instructor and former head of Firearms Technology Branch declared the Rare Breed triggers is not a machine gun.
Rare Breed then describes the firing sequence…including a statement that the firing mechanism of the trigger forces the trigger forward to reset, thus requiring an actual subsequent trigger pull to fire the next loaded cartridge (a claim that seems to dispel the idea that the trigger can be held back such that a second pull is unnecessary).
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2021/08/13/atf-sued-by-trigger-manufacturer-n48833
That last paragraph seems to be the crux of the matter, in that the trigger is forced forward by the operation of the trailing edge of the bolt carrier slot on the locking lever, the same edge that trips the full-auto sear in a select-fire rifle. That means that the trigger is already fully forward and set in the firing position at the instant the bolt carrier comes completely forward and the bolt locks, so that if rearward pressure is constantly applied to the trigger (there being no need for the shooter to physically release pressure as the reset is accomplished automatically), and as soon as the bolt rotates and locks, the rearward pressure that has never been removed from the trigger fires the gun.
That being the case, the argument can be be that the first, ‘single’ pull of the trigger never stops; That ‘first pull’ is simply maintained, the gun fires as soon as the gun locks as the trigger is already pressed back from the initial ‘pull.’ Until the finger is completely removed from the trigger, it’s thus all the same ‘pull,’ which means that one ‘pull,’ constantly applied pressure to the rear, practically allows every round in the gun to be fired without the shooter ever physically releasing that rearward pressure.
That there is pretty much the essence of a ‘machine gun, but this one accomplishes its mimicry of full-auto simply by automating one portion of the trigger press/release/reset/press cycle instead of eliminating it altogether by bypassing any engagement of a ‘disconnector’.
The more I think about this, the more I have the impression that this one may be a ‘loser.’
Regardless of whether RBT triggers actually satisfy the technical definition of a machine gun, or how many BAFT agents swear that it does not, so long as the courts continue to apply Chevron deference it’s all moot — BATF will say, “our current interpretation is that it’s a machine gun,” and the courts will say “per Chevron, we defer to your interpretation; case closed.” That’s what happened to Akins years ago and has happened in the bump stock cases — again, hopefully the Sixth Circuit en banc will call a halt to this in criminal cases and SCOTUS will then back them up.
Otherwise, unfortunately RBT almost certainly goes down.
The “Chevron Doctrine” does pose potential problems, but based on the article, and the Reed claim that the fire control unit “forces” (as in physically moves the actual trigger forward, the only conclusion is that the fire control unit cannot be operated if the actual trigger lever is pushed forward. The implication in that case is whether the trigger lever does force the trigger forward, interrupting any attempt to “hold the trigger down”.
The ATF might have trouble declaring before the court that a trigger lever forced forward (and requiring the shooter to pull it back), somehow makes the firearm automatic because it allows a rate of fire “like” a machine gun…since rate of fire has never been previously defined (and accepted) as a defining the difference between semi-auto/auto (that infamous string/belt loop).
“Breed”, not “Reed”
There is one factor with the operation of that ‘one trigger pull’ that leans toward a legitimate belief that the device allows multiple shots with one trigger ‘pull,’ in that the first ‘pull’ is actually sustained as long as the shooter maintains pressure on the trigger. Since that is the case, there IS only one rearward ‘pull,’ and the device automatically moves the trigger forward through reset as the shooter retains back pressure on the trigger. This sustained back pressure fires the gun again as soon as the bolt head locks into battery. That means that only one ‘pull’ of the trigger, although the trigger does move forward until sustained pressure fires the gun again, is necessary to fire again.
That fits the definition–one ‘pull,’ sustained back pressure against the internal mechanism’s automatic reset with the shooter doing nothing else, gun fires again without the shooter releasing rearward pressure = ‘automatic’ fire.
It was only a matter of time. Wave a big red flag in front of a Fed, and no matter how stupid he might be, it’s going to get his attention eventually.
Sam:
Again, read the papers from the Akins case years ago. The BATF even recognized and agreed with Akins that his device wasn’t a machine gun for the same kind of mechanical realities similar to what you (and RBT) posit.
Then the the feds changed their minds, and neither the district court nor the Eleventh Circuit ever got past “BATF says it’s a MG” because of Chevron.
As the Sixth Circuit panel decision recognized, this is a classic Chevron problem — even though the bureaucrats are plainly ignoring the law and the facts, Chevron pretty much hogties the courts ability to do anything about it.
We were a whisker away from nuking Auer Deference (related concept) until Judas Roberts did one of his trademark goofball opinions (which obliterated Auer Deference but holding that it is somehow still good law). Hopefully, a good challenge to Chevron will come up soon, as it appears that the votes are there to reverse it, even if the court’s resident invertebrate votes to maintain it.
trump is a traitor. i dont like biden. trump should be tried for treason.
Trump NEVER issued an EO directing the ATF to reclassify bump stocks. The ATF did that on their own based on him saying he “didn’t like bump stocks”.
It’s biden and the Democrats that is the real enemy.
>it’s Biden and the Democrats that are the real enemy
Hah! It was Tump who trotted out the “Take the guns first. Due process later.” line, and the far-right “muh militias” lunatics would have eaten it up “I-its j-just the commie leftists who are getting their guns seized, we s-swear”
Trump was an idiot who got where he did with lies and money, and the Republican party worships him just as a way to keep power. The INSTANT he can’t hold office again, they’ll dump him.
He is a pawn for people desperately clinging to power, nothing more.
He is not, nor will he ever be, a friend to gun owners.
If he was the 2nd Amendment Savior people claim him to be, when did he put his foot down to defend or secure our rights?
He didn’t.
The Right is not, nor will it ever be, your friend.
They feed you lies and say “Sure buddy! Anything for you!” to get your vote, but stab you in the back when it matters.
An armed citizen is as much an inconvenience to the Right as they are to the Left.
Both sides want unarmed complacency, they’re just taking different routes to get there.
They feed you lies and say “Sure buddy! Anything for you!” to get your vote, but stab you in the back when it matters.
Sounds pretty much like what the Liberals are doing with the Black and Hispanic people while they kill jobs, shut down oil production, bring back “mandatory” masks and lockdowns, conspire with social media, look for ways to track how much we drive (so they can implement a per mile TAX, stab our foreign “friends” in the back and tell the Cuban people to stay home (“it ain’t so bad”) while opening the borders and transporting thousands of Covid infected illegals all over the country so they can continue this bullshit through the next election cycle to use as an excuse for another round of universal mail in ballots to give them an opportunity to steal a few more seats in the House and Senate… Gas is up a buck a gallon, food is up over 20%, hell used cars are up 25% and inflation went over 7.2% in July, meanwhile Hunter Braindead is confessing to whores on video about sex with Russian Hookers and deals with Russian dope dealers who stole his fucking laptop and left him for dead in a Vegas hotel room… “But, muh bumpstock”!!! Ni–er PLEASE, we’ve got a shitload more to worry about than red flags and bumpstocks, these asshats are out to destroy our economy, take ALL of your guns AND turn us all into slaves… Just remember none of this shit would be happening if the courts had done their job because “The Big Guy” would not be in the White House and his co-conspirators would be in jail… The liberals want way more than unarmed complacency…
If the loony left really thought they could charge him for treason, then you better believe they would have impeached him for it. You live in a fantasy world. The Russia collusion story was a lie sold to fools like you.
Troll says “trump should be tried for treason.”
List your case, for treason.
It’s easy, like this:
Joe Biden, for willfully allowing, aiding and abetting the invasion of the United States and its boarders, by intentionally dismantling boarder protections, and ordering the release into the interior of the country, millions of invaders in violation of your oath to “support and defend” the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and for not faithfully discharging the duties of the office of the president, do find you guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors, and of treason against the people of the United States and the Constitution of said United States.
Don’t just say treason, give a good reason, make some case.
Continuously blurting out the word ‘treasonTreasonTREASON!’ is about as much an affirmative statement as ‘russiaRussiaRUSSIA!’ was. It’s meaningless. We are not at war with Illegalalienia, although we are and always HAVE been at war with Eastasia, so XiBidenHarris allowing/welcoming in hordes of harmless, wholesome, disease-free, freedom-seeking economic refugees from the totalitarian drug regime of Mexico is not treasonous. Malignant, yes. Malfeasance, yes. Pernicious? Definitely. Completely unlawful, yes. But treasonous?
No.
The two clauses of the Constitution’s definition of treason are separated by “or”, so only one need apply. The second mentions “Enemies”, with zero mention of declared (or any) war.
Consider a burglar who has forced entry into your (John’s) home. The door (means of lawful entry) is well marked, and EVERYONE who is not an enemy (household members, invited guests, delivery or mail people on lawful business, even dipshits selling crap you don’t want / soliciting handouts) uses the door. While you may not know what someone breaking through a window specifically wants, you can know beyond doubt he isn’t there for any purpose you permit or would ever permit. He may contend that he “just wants X”, but X is by definition something you worked to earn for the exclusive use of members of the household. How is he not an “enemy”?
If you hire a company to provide home security, which is not only costly, but requires delegation of significant powers that frequently interfere with the comfort and convenience of your family; and its President has sworn a sacred oath to protect you against “enemies, foreign and domestic”, wouldn’t you expect him to be 100% on your side and 0% on the enemies’ (ever, for any reason)? If you gave the security president a loaner key, wouldn’t using it to let the aforementioned Burglar in, then giving him “aid and comfort”, be a betrayal of the grossest sort?
It is right and proper to debate the merits of any particular overseas war or expedition; possibly even all overseas wars and expeditions in general. OTOH, throughout 99% of recorded history the right and obligation of a nation-state to defend its own territory was not even a matter of debate between serious adults.
trump should be tried for treason.
On WHAT grounds?… If there was even a hint of the possibility that Trump could even be CHARGED with treason, Piglosi, Balloonhead and Company would have already done it… So if you are harboring some “Super-Secret” information that can prove Trump is a traitor you should forward that stuff to Adam Schitt, Jerry Nonads and Eric Swallowswell immediately… Their unimpressive track record against Trump could use a boost… Or, at least share your information with the rest of us and I hope it’s NOT just some regurgitated “fake news” garbage (IE; anything from Clinton News Network, MSDNC, FAUX NEWS, ABC, CBS, NYT etc.) the rest of the “Never Trump” crew uses around here….
“On WHAT grounds?”
Really? Were you not paying attention to the hundreds of thousands heavily armed battalions of Trump supporters who crashed the Capitol Building 20 minutes before Trump told his audience to peacefully march down to the Capitol, and “fight like hell”?
Trump was speaking somewhere, and a million man army tried to capture the government, and establish fascism. And when that army entered the building, they shot everyone in sight. And four police died from causes unrelated to the mob attack. That, right there’s treason. “Oh, do come along, Bond.”
Really? Were you not paying attention to the hundreds of thousands heavily armed battalions of Trump supporters who crashed the Capitol Building 20 minutes before Trump told his audience to peacefully march
I KNOW you are being facetious, but some dumb shit somewhere will take that and post it as “FACT” because they read it on a PRO-2A gun site…. OR someone here will copy it, selectively edit out the sarcasm and post it as Gods actual truth… Can’t think of anyone right off who might do that, but I’m sure they’re here…
Are you implying that it ISN’T God’s Actual Truth?! If it wasn’t true, would they still be holding the traitors in solitary confinement without trial?! Aren’t we all deeply grateful that this dangerous plot led by a horned-headdress-wearing half-nude painted guy backed by a crack terror squad comprised of unarmed middle-aged Floridians, that came within millimeters of overthrowing our entire country’s system of government, was halted in its tracks by the bravery of an unnamed government agent courageously shooting dead an unarmed female veteran?!
Shock, I am SHOCKED that you are an Insurrection Denier!
Ummmmmm, Okay?
OK, it’s like this: The father bee truly loves the mother flower, and they get together, with the birds, or something, and there’s this huge orgy, and that’s where sarcasm comes from.
Ummmmmm, Okay?
I said months ago on several websites the “AFT” would do it. Told Ya So!
If they can say a plastic stock is a machine gun, what’s to stop them from saying jeans with belt loops are machine guns, or Jerry Miculek’s trigger finger?
Hmmmmm…
Rare Breed Triggers, LLC v. Garland (6:21-cv-01245)
District Court, M.D. Florida
Assigned To: Carlos Eduardo Mendoza
Referred To: Gregory J. Kelly
Date Filed: Aug. 2, 2021
Date of Last Known Filing: Aug. 13, 2021
Cause: 28:2201 Declaratory Judgment
Nature of Suit: 890 Other Statutory Actions
Jury Demand: None
Jurisdiction Type: U.S. Government Defendant
Aug 13, 2021
RESPONSE in Opposition re 18 MOTION In Limine (TIME SENSITIVE) to Limit Evidence at Hearing on Plaintiffs’ Emergency Motion for Preliminary Injunction filed by Kevin C. Maxwell, Rare Breed Triggers, LLC. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit, # 2 Exhibit)(Maxwell, Kevin) (Entered: 08/13/2021)
Aug 13, 2021
NOTICE canceling Evidentiary Hearing hearing scheduled for 08/18/2021. (MEH) ctp (Entered: 08/13/2021)
Aug 13, 2021
Minute Entry. Telephonic Proceedings held before Judge Carlos E. Mendoza: TELEPHONE CONFERENCE held on 8/13/2021. Court Reporter: Suzanne L. Trimble (MEH) ctp (Entered: 08/13/2021)
Aug 13, 2021
ENDORSED ORDER denying as moot 18 Defendants’ Opposed Time-Sensitive Motion in Limine, 19 Defendants’ Unopposed Time-Sensitive Motion to Appear Virtually. Signed by Judge Carlos E. Mendoza on 8/13/2021. (KMS) (Entered: 08/13/2021)
Aug 13, 2021
Notice canceling hearing
Aug 13, 2021
Order on Motion to Appear Telephonically AND Order on Motion in Limine
Excellent document and very well written. Unfortunately with an Obama judge presiding over the case I fear this case will be lost by the RBT company. I would not put it beyond this current WH regime to attempt some sort of retaliation against RBT customers. If ATF is adjudicated to be wrong, which I firmly believe they are, and they get away with this then other agencies will follow their lead in ignoring the law(s).
other agencies will follow their lead in ignoring the law(s).
Are you suggesting that OTHER Regulatory Agencies actually DO follow the law? Like EPA follows the law? ATF has always made it up as they went along, hell they’ve been overturned more times than the Ninth Circuit…
I’ve seen Fish and Wildlife, Forestry Service, Corps of Engineers law enforcement present some very sound cases in a professional manner. Haven’t seen them all but some are good and of course some are other things. It all depends on the districts and their management.
This company will get mighty rich if they win the right to continue to sell these.
Best advertising ever.
I certainly would be ready to buy via cash at a gun show in the future.
I foolishly had lumped this trigger together with binaries.
If I had taken the time to understand this trigger better I would have bought one….with cash.
It’s not a machine gun by definition but has similar capability. All the shooter is doing is pulling the trigger fast and it has a short range of pull. You can do that with a custom 1911.
The irony is that they are trying to outlaw gunsmithing and custom trigger jobs.
If I get the sheriff to deputize me then would I only be allowed to carry a machine gun in that county?
If I get a letter from the FBI then would I be able to carry nationwide including airports?
Would it be simpler to get a letter of endorsement from the ATF?
Vote for the Libertarian candidate in California for governor. Republican Larry Elder. Now is the time Libertarians to prove you really mean what you say. Unless Larry Elder does not meet their libertarian Purity tests??? Because while he supports ending the War on Drugs. Larry Elder the atheist, happens to agree with the Christians. Who say a father is necessary in the home. And that is something that most of the libertarian atheists disagree with.
Elect the Libertarian who is for open borders? You mean the party that always runs interference for the Democrat-Socialist liberals? This is not what will put CA on the path to improvement.
Elder is not an open border proponent…
“We need to start by giving agencies charged with border security new technology, new facilities and more people to stop, process and deport illegal immigrants.” He also wants to repeal the absurd Covid regs in CA and is a Pro 2A guy… Elder is NOT a politician… Problem is he will only have few short months to accomplish anything before starting to campaign for the next gubernatorial elections in Nov 2022…
Thanks for setting the record straight. I also just read that Eastwood will publicly support him. That all works for me.
The fact is the Atf doesn’t know their place and no one is willing to put the tiger back into the cage. They dont care how many innocent lives the atf takes or destroys. The feminine spirit really shows in some of the comments here about how they “saw this coming or they were pushing their luck”. This doesn’t do anything but stroke your own pointless ego.
The FRT trigger group is infact a second seer design because the BCG moves the lock bar i.e. second seer. get over it. if you can HOLD constant pressure on the trigger and the gun repeatedly fires that makes it an automatic design and thus illegal without proper documents.
you clowns should learn how a full auto trigger group works and then you will see that the FRT lock bar preforms the same function as the second seer.
There is actually no such thing as a “second seer design” (its spelled “sear” BTW and not “seer”). There is something called “secondary sear engagement” but actually no such thing as a “second seer design” (or with spelling “second sear design”). “second seer design” is a made up term, it does not actually exist.
The FRT as the same cycle sequence and activity as a traditional semi-auto trigger group. The hammer is locked back and trigger reset each shot requiring another trigger press for each shot. The difference between the FRT and a traditional semi-auto trigger group is the constant pressure applied with the FRT “forces” the hammer unlock more quickly by basically “forcing” the trigger back past the reset point in the reset travel instead of the normal release of the trigger and pull again after the trigger has traveled forward from the reset. In the FRT The hammer still locks back and a trigger reset happens and its still one trigger pull per shot required, the constant pressure makes it happen more quickly though because there is no additional trigger travel needed forward with the reset like a traditional semi-auto trigger has.
If you fired one you would feel the trigger reset each shot.
people have been doing this for years already with a piece of coat hanger or strip of pliable metal using traditional semi-auto triggers without modifying them. Its an old trick. Its still a single trigger pull per shot though and trigger reset happens and the hammer is locked back each shot it just happens more rapidly.
@John In AK
“…so that if rearward pressure is constantly applied to the trigger (there being no need for the shooter to physically release pressure as the reset is accomplished automatically), and as soon as the bolt rotates and locks, the rearward pressure that has never been removed from the trigger fires the gun.”
This is where things get murky. Breed declared in an ATF firing that the shooter’s finger is forced to pull the trigger a second (or each) time:
“Like all AR-15 firearms, as the bolt carrier moves to the rear it cocks the hammer of the firearm. In the FRT-15’s patented design, as the bolt carrier cocks the hammer, the force of the cocking hammer also forces a reset on the trigger by pushing the shooter’s finger forward and making the trigger ready to function again upon a subsequent pulling of the trigger. This is referred to as a “forced reset” and it is this forced reset that makes the FRT-15 legal under the NFA because it requires the pulling of the trigger again by the shooter in order to expel another round, i.e., the trigger is forced to mechanically reset itself and must be pulled again before it can fire an another round.”
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2021/08/13/atf-sued-by-trigger-manufacturer-n48833
Seems the question is whether the trigger lever must be pulled a second (or subsequen) time, or can it truly be “held down”. Breed did not address the “hold down” directly (as maybe an unintended,surprising function”, but clearly stated the trigger lever is mechanically forced forward after each shot is fired.
Yeppers. If constant pressure can be maintained, and causes the gun to fire due to that constant pressure, the contraption is a ‘machine gun.’ If there is the necessity of a momentary, even infinitesimal release and subsequent new ‘pull’ of the trigger to make the hammer fall, then it isn’t if the criteria are infallibly precise and definitively irrefutable–which they aren’t, of course.
But, again, it won’t make any difference. Considering what the device can DO, as illustrated by the 8×10 color glossy video with circles and arrows to be used against them, there isn’t much else to be said.
“Considering what the device can DO, as illustrated by the 8×10 color glossy video with circles and arrows…”
That’s a piece of info I did not access; good point.
@John In AK
“Shock, I am SHOCKED that you are an Insurrection Denier!”
No, no. Not a denier, a confirmer. Jan 6 was like Pickett’s charge at Gettysburg, or the Charge of the Light Brigade, or the Vandals sacking Rome, or the utter destruction of Carthage, or the Atomic Bomb on Japan, or the fire bombing of Tokyo or Dresden. the burning of the White House by the British. And forget that the definition of “insurrection” requires the insurrectors to be armed; that’s just semantics, and being a word nazi*.
*Wow, thought I would never get to put this word in the screed.
And here I always thought that a Screed was a character in a Dr. Seuss book. One learns something every day. Unless one is dead, of course. Or President Biden. But I repeat myself.
No, no. Not a denier, a confirmer. Jan 6 was like
You left out Pearl Harbor (per Braindead) 9/11 (Pissqwaki) and the last global “Extinction Event” (that’s mine)… AND the 2016 defeat of the Hildabeast (mine too)…
“You left out Pearl Harbor (per Braindead) 9/11 (Pissqwaki) and the last global “Extinction Event”…”
You’re (your, yer, yur, UR,….?) correct.
@MADMAXX
“Ummmmmm, Okay?”
I’m just an old truth teller.
Looks like all those people trying to sell these second hand for $700+ are in for a disappointment.
I’d like to say this will never pass muster in the court system but since the liberals hold most positions therein the constitution, facts, common sense and justice went out the window.
I have been mulling this over as to how to truly prove this is a one-pull, one-shot trigger and here is how it can be tested: Get the AR loaded, and carefully put a zip tie around the trigger (loosely). Then, pull the zip tie to pull the trigger all the way back. If it keeps firing, it’s auto. If it doesn’t, then it’s semi-auto. Seems like a pretty simple concept to me. Clearly it’s not to the good ol’ ATF…
Make your zip-tie a fairly strong elastic band, and try it again. If it keeps firing. . .
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/238842981_358276749290279_7341828657241860452_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=gEw5ki9FQ0YAX-55a2z&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=c0a97c9e2b11bd1c7b4b41aa80edad09&oe=611D37C3
@LKB
It appears “Chevron Deference” is not absolute. Can’t say if any specific challenge to an agency interpretation of its own regulations (“Chevron” encourages agencies to create vague regulations), but it does seem SCOTUS planted some limits, one of which being that the agency interpretation must be reasonable. Courts could determine that ATF regulation interpretation of “machine gun” is not reasonable, thus overriding “Chevron”.
Don’t have time to look up all the “limitations” on agency interpretation, but thought it important to note that “Chevron” is not bullet-proof.
https://www.constangy.com/newsroom-newsletters-870
file:///C:/Users/e/AppData/Local/Temp/2019-06-27_kisor_v_wilkie_auer_deference_lives_on_but_in_what_form.pdf
https://procedurallytaxing.com/supreme-court-reaffirms-that-agencies-are-not-entitled-to-chevron-deference-on-their-interpretations-of-judicial-review-issues/
https://www.bclplaw.com/en-US/insights/u-s-supreme-court-limits-judicial-deference-to-administrative.html
https://www.mankogold.com/publications-Chevron-Natural-Resources-Defense-Council-Deference.html
https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/news/supreme-court-limits-rule-that-requires-judges-to-defer-to-agencies/
Call it what every you want the fact is its a full auto trigger.
you also might be interested to know that this trigger does not function correctly on a BCG which has been fully neutered.
you will have some luck with partly neutered one but it will function the best with a full auto bcg.
also i found that one pull one round is very difficult if not impossible while using this trigger.
It’s difficult for someone to operate only because they’re a putz and a full-blown idiot. Such individuals are not qualified to make such a mechanical determination for anyone but themselves. These people are the same type of narrow-minded stupid selfish fools that believes only the military, law enforcement, and of course themselves should be the only people able to own full auto weapons and are the type that shouldn’t even be able to have a firearm. The majority of these RBT trigger owners don’t feel it’s an obvious full auto trigger. It should be easy enough to support the group regardless of how someone stands in a personal opinion.
I think the issue they’ll have is that the Binary triggers only fire one shot if you hold the trigger back. Same with the 3MR. With the FRT if you maintain rearward force it fires repeatedly. Essentially you, the user, are only executing and then maintaining one press of the trigger. The fact that it gets pushed forward between shots but that you don’t actually have to release the pressure on the trigger will be the crux of the argument. It assumes that the operators actions are irrelevant and that the law only applies to the mechanical process of moving the trigger. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Given that the owners are lawyers, they could maintain the fight for quite some time.
The Taliban has been gifted with thousands of machine guns by our government.
Any questions?
Do I understand correctly that the sequence is:
(1) shooter pulls trigger
(2) shot fires
(3) without shooter releasing trigger, trigger “resets”
(4) another shot fires
That is a machine gun.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Reagan’s 1986 law prohibiting newly manufactured machine guns to be transferred to civilians is a violation of the 2nd.
But the above sequence is a machine gun.
But you’re still absolutely wrong and have proven you’re not a machine gun specialist.
NO …
The trigger is reset and the finger must move to fire the next round.
No go back to you Brady-Giffords buddies and tell them to go learn something.
The thorny issue appears to be a single word, “Trigger”.
In common parlance, “Trigger” is the release lever that we all see protruding from beneath the firearm, commonly housed in a “trigger guard”. In the instance at hand, “Trigger” seems to defined as both the release lever, and the internal mechanical components that allow movement of parts such as to result in a firing pin contacting the cartridge case, or primer.
Thus, when Breed explains that the “trigger” is forced “forward” after a shot is fired, the claim may not singularly refer to the actual release lever forward movement, but only internal components. If, however, the actual mechanical operation does force the release lever forward, even with finger pressure applied, then such an arrangement would only result in a single shot being fired with each release lever pull.
Words….American English is a sloppy language.,
I would not want to be a dog on the Rare Breed property grounds….
Rare Breed Triggers will walk with a few tons of money either way this goes, they knew going in that it would come to this in pretty short order and maybe that was actually in the plans, sell what we can before it hits the fan.
If it comes to it they will have zero choice but to turn over all customer records, they make tons of money and the customers will end up paying for something that gets confiscated with no chance of getting anything back from it.
I’d love to have one or two of these gems but would never purchase one with a credit card, over the internet, and with all my information attached, bring them to the gun shows if you want to see just how much money there is to be made in cash…better bring a bunch to sell..
I think it’s pretty screwed up how a lot of gun owners seem to outright support such triggers being banned as well as full autos being all but banned. Such people are two-faced backstabbers whose support of individual gun rights stops when it doesn’t involve them, and/or doesn’t directly affect them. Such selfish and childish behavior is what has given the tyrants in our country all the strength they’ve needed in the past to hurt gun owners any and every way they can. Cowards the lot of them all.
“Such people are two-faced backstabbers whose support of individual gun rights stops when it doesn’t involve them, and/or doesn’t directly affect them.”
Well…..
I don’t have a field artillery piece, and don’t want one. I don’t have a TOW missile system, and don’t want one. I don’t have a tracked vehicle, and don’t want one. I don’t have a belt-fed weapon of any sort, and don’t want one. Why should I care if you (and others) can’t have those items?
Mind yer own business, says I. If your boat isn’t leaking, a bailing pail just takes up precious space that could be used for other things. If you don’t have something, government cannot take it away. Nothin’ ain’t worth nothin’, but it’s free.
“Hey, hey you, you, get off of my cloud. Don’t hang around ’cause two’s a crowd. On my cloud…” Cool yer jets, take some Librium, chill-out and relax. Someone else’s problems are someone else’s problem.
Don’t get yer panties in a twist. You can’t fight city hall; the law is a ass. Just lay back and enjoy the ride. Turn on, tune in, and drop out. I think it’s gonna be alright. Yeah, the worst is over now; the morning sun is shining like a red rubber ball. Life is just a bowl of cherries, so live and laugh at it all.
“Why should I care if you (and others) can’t have those items?”
Why should I or anyone else care if you or anyone else with your corrupted DNA is alive? As batshit crazy as you and your attitude is … I REALLY DONT.
It ain’t solidified yet.
Reading is fundamental.
I know Dims and leftists don’t have a sense of humour, but it is surprising how many POTG subscribers here are always set on hair trigger to trash something, or someone; two speeds: off, and full afterburner.
When I use ridicule, sarcasm, mockery, I don’t use a tag to indicate such…figuring that would insult people’s intelligence, like using cue cards for live audiences.
Maybe a helpful hint? I don’t do echo chamber. When you see my screen name immediately delete the emailed comment, or just skip over the entire thing if you are reading the online list.
What’s even more amazing is those with the severe lack of intellect and a sour sense of humor. While speaking for myself and supposing for others is the contempt for the weakness of sarcasm and it’s sheer stupidity when it’s used for discussions of a nationally sensitive matter and the ignorance when such a compromised personality doesn’t even recognize the need for proper timing of it. Point taken however on when to dismiss such fools who can’t, or won’t, be corrected and helped. I’ll look forward to that if your courtesy is returned of letting serious words of wit move right on by.
“the weakness of sarcasm and it’s sheer stupidity when it’s used for discussions of a nationally sensitive matter.”
There is never a time not suitable for mocking and ridiculing the enemy.
Trying to come off as a real nut case from the Left is sometimes hard work, and hurts my head. Worse, there are times when I scare myself how easy it can be to do, and how sometimes it takes awhile to disengage from the mindset.
Then I very strongly suggest that until such time you figure out how to make all that work for you in effective communication with those you speak to you focus solely on practicing what you preach.
“…you focus solely on practicing what you preach.”
That being?
Uncommon Breed petitioned for explanatory and injunctive alleviation against all Defendants on the second of August, just as a brief limiting request, which seemed, by all accounts, to be denied on 8/05.
Infringement is still infringement, regardless of how little or how great the infringement is. According to the Constitutional Bill of Rights, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It is undeniable. The problem is people are all too willing to surrender their rights to government officials acting unlawfully and criminally exceeding their authority, and abusing their power to infringe on the rights of Americans, and Americans do not value their rights enough to resist tyranny in this form, and stand up and fight for their rights. Shame on both.