Brace yourselves. Here comes another skirmish in the age-old war between the AK and the AR rifle families. The primary points of contention have always been contrasting ideas of reliability, lethality, and accuracy. The differences have polarized an otherwise likeminded group of individuals. Many of these individuals have even gone so far as to create whole institutions — or churches if you go that far — around their rifle of choice. They claim that their idea is “progressive”, or “constantly evolving”, yet all they end up doing is alienating many of their followers who are then left in an ideological pit because their favorite trainer feels their rifle is not good enough . . .
Division is the device of destruction, and any individual who divides based on selling a propped up product is doomed to fail. That being said, I will take on the issues at hand in a logical and rational manner while attempting to part the vast sea of complete bullshit that surrounds this argument. My breakdown is simple: dispense with the 7.62x39mm round.
The 7.62×39 round is central to all the contentious issues involved with the comparison of these two rifle systems. It’s the reason that the AK has its well deserved reputation for midrange power and barrier penetrating ability. By comparison, the AR, at least in 5.56mm, has gained the reputation of being anemic.
On the contrary, the 7.62×39 is also the reason why the AK is seen as inaccurate compared to the AR. The comparison has always been apples to oranges. A true comparison is seldom put to a real test for fear of showing the supposed weaknesses of each system. 2012 proved to be a year that Americans decided to break with convention and make the 300 AAC Blackout[1] our newest love interest. It has, in a way, made the7.62 x39 superfluous. But more on that later.
There have been many attempts to cram a .30 caliber bullet in the AR. The AR, mechanically speaking, has a difficult time handling the extremely tapered cartridge of the7.62 x39. The direct gas operation common to most ARs combined with the powerful thrust forces imparted onto the bolt by the tapered cartridge, are very hard on the operating system. They also force weaknesses to be built in when chambering an AR in 7.62×39 such as reduced bolt strength, magazines of decreased capacity and odd shape, and increased fouling due to dirtier surplus or imported ammunition.
There have been attempts, some recent, to marry the AR to the 7.62×39[2], but this brings on a whole list of new problems, the first of which is the use of unique and non-standard parts. The AK system, on the other hand, has never seemed to have an issue moving to a smaller caliber.
Because of the decision made by the military during the Vietnam era, the AR has remained in continuous service longer than any other American small arm[3]. Yet, the proponents of the AK have never let the AR crowd forget the jungles it was thrust into. It’s shocking how fresh the problems encountered in Vietnam still are in the minds of some potential AR buyers. It’s truly amazing that these issues have stuck to what is now one of the weapons we know the most about. But you have to keep in mind that the two rifles evolved from completely different design concepts and were intended for different purposes.
The AK system never graduated from its original manufacturing base the way the AR has. It is, and always will be, a child of the Second World War and the product of a society devoid of any reason to advance it. The 7.62×39 has held the AK system back. No matter how many companies make modernization kits or products to enhance the AK’s performance, they are just adding pearls to the pig. ‘
There are certain gun trainers pushing rifles that defy the traditional AK profile, some costing thousands of dollars more than what a standard AK. But at heart, they are just sad imported rifles decorated with the latest in fancy rails and grips. These blinded-up guns don’t offer any advantage. The limits placed upon the AK system are directly related to the American usage of the 7.62×39 round. The low cost of the rifles and ammo, combined with the general inability of the American shooting public to understand the system, have created a culture in which the sole argument for buying an AK is price alone.
The AR family, on the other hand, has evolved by way of an explosion of innovation, where new ideas are constantly introduced and there’s virtually no limit to what a shooter is able to do with their lower receiver. Hunters, competitors, police, soldiers, home defenders and entrepreneurs have all embraced the AR because it can be tailored to meet almost any need.
It fights our wars, kills enemy and game alike, can win national competitions and switch calibers in seconds. It’s truly the arm of the thinking man. Americans have become attached to the AR because it represents the freedom of choice and the kind of non-linear thinking that makes America great.
The AK, however, is trapped by the limits its design have imposed and the fact that the only viable commercial option is the 7.62×39, which in a way is reminiscent of the line of thought used by the rifle’s creators; the AK was intended to limit user choice. The overall lack of inherent accuracy, poor build quality and horrible triggers found on most off-the-shelf AKs extend to almost all makes models. Given its shortcomings, the AK system has lasted longer than it ever had a right to.
The wide availability of the 7.62×39 is another problem that confronts the cartridge. A quick Internet search reveals that a case of 1000 rounds of 123gr FMJs runs $239.00 shipped. This is for foreign steel-cased ammo. American made FMJs run a whopping $700.00 per thousand shipped. Ammunition of comparable quality such as a case of 1000 5.56 62gr green tip round runs $500.00 shipped[4]. The new 300 AAC Blackout retails approximately $550.00 for 1000 rounds of 115gr ammunition[5].
The point is the market for the 7.62×39 — and the AK itself — is reliant on inexpensive imports. This is also a handicap as the ammo tends to be a great deal less consistent than American manufactured rounds and may be subject to, God forbid, future ammunition importation bans.
But the biggest blow to the 7.62×39 came recently in the form of AAC’s 300 Blackout. This round will, over time, eclipse the 7.62×39 in America. One of the primary arguments against the AR has always been the 5.56/223 round. It has a rep for spotty lethality and poor terminal effect. Bullet development in the last decade has largely solved this, at least civilians, whereas the military is still issued ammunition of debatable quality. ‘
The .30 caliber, though, is and will probably always be the favored bullet diameter of American shooters. There’s a mental association with this bullet diameter that dates back more than a century. It has been chosen over other (possibly better) options developed by designers of classics such as Garand[6].
The .30 caliber almost instills confidence in the shooter. Despite its small size, my own 300 AAC Blackout pistol was hailed as a “real gun” by several individuals who fired it. That came after drilling targets at 300 yards out of an 8.5 inch barrel. My own AK-74 was fired alongside it, but only merited a passing “that’s cool, man.”
With the 300 Blackout, Americans now finally have a means to use a standardized, SAAMI-accepted cartridge in their ARs that matches or beats the 7.62×39. Better yet, it does not require extensive modification to the AR platform to use like the 7.62×39 would. The ability to deliver a .30 caliber bullet out of America’s sweetheart in a way that’s backed by a growing number of companies demonstrates the American public’s desire for .30 cal confidence in their weapons.
The 300 Blackout represents a chance for the AR to rise above the persistent belief of some that it’s a toy or lacks the lethality of the AK. The Blackout has the ability to kill (commercially, of course) the 7.62×39. It’s a death that should be welcomed for the sake of furthering a superior platform.
Overall, the 7.62×39 has been the reason for much strife in the shooting community. The 300 AAC Blackout may be able to rehabilitate the reputation of the AR in the power and lethality departments. The modern AR is every bit reliable as the modern AK, but in a different way.
The combination of mechanical functionality, repeatable intrinsic accuracy and definitive lethality are paramount to a successful weapon design. The AR excels at all of the above, and does so in a way that doesn’t limit the user. The 7.62×39 fired from an AK is a thing of the past; a relic kept alive by widespread distribution, low price and perceived superiority. The Mp3 player surpassed 8-track for lots of very good reasons. There may still be a few who argue that the 8 Track is pretty mean with a good set of speakers, but that doesn’t make them right.
[1] http://300aacblackout.com/, October 4, 2012
[2] http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=558, October 4, 2012
[3] Rose, Alexander. American Rifle-A Biography. 2008; Bantam Dell Publishing.
[4] http://www.ammoman.com/, October 4, 2012
[5] http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/, October 4, 2012
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.276_Pedersen October 4, 2012
Good story, and some important lessons.
On a tangent note, that’s pretty awesome that you knew Al Mar.
While there was a report a couple of days ago indicating that a man named “Booker” wished to commit jihad, that story also explained that “Booker” was slated to go to basic training on April 7. Therefore this is an entirely seperate incident.
You don’t need a cannon if you’re proficient with any firearm. Carry what is comfortable for you! A 22 lr or magnum will be quite adequate if you know what you are doing. This maximum firepower which is great in the military is not always realistic in the “real world”! Just ask Tex Grebner. And I think he is a really decent guy for posting his misadventure. That took a lot more courage than many want to admit. Probably one of the most useful public service announcements ever! Check out his review of the NAA Pug 22 magnum. He was right on the money! It will do the trick in a pinch.
All this proves is once again, the govt has no clue and they are reactionary. All these are available elsewhere with a quick search.
If there was no media hype, they would have done nothing. Once again, the MSM propaganda machine focusing on the 0.00001% problem and not dealing with real issues that go against the administrations agenda.
What we should all really fear is that the govt being so clueless, if SHTF, we are all screwed unless you are prepared.
I had a similar situation happen to me a number of years ago; I was walking my dog and four pitbulls ran out of the dark and attacked my dog; so I pulled out my Glock 30 and charged into them and started to pull the trigger on the first dog that presented it self; Boom! they scatter before I finish the trigger travel and they never looked back, even to growl.
Dogs are perceptive, even vicious ones.
Now, after carrying a weapon for 13 years, it is incomprehensible why 95%, plus or minus, of people continue to be helpless and defenseless prey to what ever predator might be about, human or animal, even in shall issue states.
Having a father that is a Vietnam veteran I may be biased to the AR but the story goes…… “The AK will always fire, you could pick one out of seven day old mud and it will still fire. The problem is their accuracy beyond ~70 yards.
The AR on the other hand had to be cleaned at least 3 times a day to insure proper function but it accuracy was spot on at well over 150 yards. So, we just made sure to engaged the enemy no less than 100 yards away. They couldn’t hit us, we killed them.”
He always says, “would you rather be dead with an always functioning rifle in your hands or alive with a rifle you have to clean 3 times a day?”
I think the answer is pretty simple when it comes to battlefield warfare.
Wow ok 7.62×39 any brand cheap ammo or not I can out shoot any AR with my 60 year old chrome lined barrell Russian SKS out to 300 yards ! Don’t think because ur AR cost alot more that AK or SKS is not a fine round one plus I can deer hunt with mine lol
For combat 5.56 has my vote over 7.62×39 tapered cases are alot more inaccurate and fact is long range accuracy drops the the cartridge. if you want a good AK get a AK-74 in 5.45mm they are very accurate and use the AK action that’s very reliable.
Where in the world did you get the idea tapered cases are a lot more inaccurate?
Actually, tapered cases are a major plus as it relates to both reliable feeding and extraction vs the straight walled 5.56 cases…
did you know that kalashnikov wasnt even an engineer?
it is uncertain how such a weapon derived from the hands of a person that did like 8th grade and nothing more.
ak is stg44 rip off. well whole nasa staff talked in german at first and replied to commanders with jawolh mein seniorofficier or something like that :)))
improve the bullet and you will have better shots. yugo m63 >>>>> m43
moa 1.
My CZ 527 in 7.62 X 39 will take down feral hogs all night long at 25–100 yards. With an Aimpoint red dot sight it will keep them in the black easily at 100 yards. My CZ likes cheap ammo and the hogs couldn’t care less what it costs. Using this ammo in the CZ is night and day compared to an AK.
.270 Win!
“Journalism students have their first hands on encounter with the ar15 assault rifle.”
In my high school, we had a math teacher who was a state marine/highway cop.
He taught pre-calc and calc.
Look at those jack-booted pigs, looking like they’re ready to invade Canada? They’re dressed like SS officers. What a sick state, demented state.
He’s been hitting the Jenkem a bit too hard!
Hooray for a good guy with a gun.
Crazy story… though the Black Talon reference made me think back to 90s rap songs. Didn’t Winchester stop making them because the name made them “too scary”?
They still manufacture the same bullets, but market them under a different name.
People will always be people. We never learn from the mistakes of the past.
Yesterdays mistakes can always be corrected will be the mantra of the next to try.
It really doesn’t matter. Ios, MSos, linux……
A man died because of ignorance and stupidity. Beat down your fellow gun owners until they get it.
No charges are expected against the clerk? He should be given a medal and a cash stipend for his service to society.
I’m not sure if this author is trying to be a troll or a fanboy spouting mindless drivel and distorting facts to suit the argument. I came onto this article trying to find out how the .300 BLK compares to the 7.62 x 39 round. Instead it’s a rehash of the ages old argument of AK vs. AR that all of us have heard at least 80 million times already. YAWWWN! And before anybody accuses me of being biased myself, I do own both platforms, and love them both but for different reasons.
HOWEVER:
“Division is the device of destruction, and any individual who divides based on selling a propped up product is doomed to fail. … My breakdown is simple: dispense with the 7.62x39mm round.”
Ummm… considering the obvious bias and the fact that you pretty much spend the rest of the article badmouthing the AK platform, I have to ask you the following question: You DO know what the definition of HYPOCRISY is, don’t you?
So you want to take the shitty cartridge of the AK, and throw it onto the less reliable than AK platform of the AR? That’s completely counter intuitive. There is a gun that does the exact opposite called the AK-74. It takes the reliable AK platform and uses a lightweight, low recoil round similar to the 5.56×45. I love how this guy calls the AR a “superior platform.” Sure, you can put all sorts of gadgets on it, but that doesn’t make it better obviously. Reliability makes it better. And that is where the AK has the edge x1000. Author obviously doesn’t know what he is talking about.
Two options:
First: take this article off this website.
Second: rename this website to http://www.thebrawlabouthowgreatamericangunsare.com
I have been in combat and when it comes to putting the bad guy down who cares if it is an AK or AR, because when you are under fire, scared, adrenaline rushing etc. Either gun is only as good as the man behind it. Be safe all and remember David took down Goliath with a rock!
I’ve been down range with highly motivated soldiers carrying M4’s and AK’s. I have to say when it comes down to it 5.56,7.62×39, 5.45, ak or m4. None of that matters. What matters is that your equipment is taken care of and you take training serious.
The AR (m4/m16) is a lot more reliable then the internet thinks it is and the Ak is more accurate then internet think it is.
The man is the weapon and the rifle is the tool.
I may have missed it, but the thing I see left out most on this subject is the shooter. It has been said that the AK was designed to be 100% reliable in the hands of alcoholic, illiterate conscripts. Which, in most urban environments, would be the average Joe like myself. Over 60, declining vision. What good is 400 yd accuracy with my AR? What’s better is 20 second field strips with solid reliability and *durability* that doesn’t require the back up infrastructure that a professional solder has. At 50 to 100 yards, my accuracy in a high stress situation will be the same with either.
Nineteen months after this article was posted, don’t see any sign of 7.62×39 being replaced by 300 Blk. At 1/2 or less the cost of the 300 Blk and less than 1/3 the cost for ammo, the 7.62×39 is too appealing a carbine that will operate under almost any conditions.
The reason the 7.62×39 AK47 has survived 7 decades is because it’s reliable, cheap to buy and operate, and is nearly indistructable. The reason the 5.56 has survived 5 decades is because the U.S. military requires it.
Haha I don’t see 7.62×39 going anywhere. It’s cheap & does what it’s supposed to. Hell they banned the chinese stuff 20 years ago & it’s still here!
The 300 Blackout seems to be catching on well. Great idea based on previous wildcats, excellent marketing.
I have both. An AK in 7.62 & a silenced 300 blackout bolt gun.
The bolt gun is ridiculously quiet & very accurate, not cheap though! I make my own subsonics so that helps keep costs down & I love it!
The AK is a bullet hose that resides by the door just in case. Only aftermarket part is a trijicon front sight post so it’s GTG day or night. The AK fits me like a glove & it’s fun as hell, cheap to feed. Guess what, I love it too!
This is one of the dumbest articles ever.
I don’t know where to start and I’m not even gonna really go into it much cause the idiocy of these claims would take up to much time for something that’s not gonna get me anywhere…
Apparently the author thinks the AK is inaccurate due to its cartridge. Ha.
You don’t know anything about the AK-47 buddy.
In all fairness I couldn’t even stand to read much past half of this article.
People are obsessed with marrying 7.62×39 with the AR platform??? What are you talking about mannnnn????
You can buy/build an AR chambered in 7.62×39!
You can buy an ak-47 in 5.56!!
Death of the 7.62??? and it’s about time????
WTF are you talking about??? 7.62×39 isn’t going anywhere! You’re delusional!!! Ha!!
Go take your 5.56/.22 caliber round and try to fight in any environment with brush or anything but open field and you quickly see why it fails.
Do the same with your blackout round and see why soldiers use the .30 caliber round. It’s called punch my friend.
This article is on the blackout round’s nuts so hard it’s pathetic.
What, do you work for a company selling blackouts or something?
Why is this even being argued? I have a BCM mid length and a reconverted saiga (IZ132 in 7.62 x39) . Tired of the “ARs aren’t reliable BS, and equally tired of folks trying to push the AK as a long range shooter.
Both have different design purposes- a heavy intermediate rd for med. to close combat is the former com bloc tactic( people FORGET that the Russians fought on the open battle field as well as urban combat with the ppshk sub machine gun- a weapon that shot a PISTOL ROUND!
The AR/ M16 was an Air Force backed design first- a LIGHTWEIGHT, accurate firearm that could be used by downed aircrews and security forces to put out rapid volumes of fire power with little recoil. The Army and Marines picked it up when they saw that combat at that time was within several hundred feet or less and a soldier or marine could carry more fire power
Neither round is designed to go long range like a big caliber bolt action or semi auto gun( the M16a4 can be lethal and accurate out to 500 m, while the AK47 can still drop a target out to roughly 400m)
The simple stupidity in trying to make one like the other seems a waste of time. If I need potent shots especially against medium sized game animals or 100 to 200m, then the AK 47 fits the bill. For 100 to 350m and 2-4moa accuracy and moderate lethality, the AR 15/ M16 fits the bill
Since NONE of us CIVILIAN shooters are “going to war” in our communities( quite frankly tired of hearing doomsday/ Teowawki talk) shooting through walls and barriers is stupid( you can’t see the target, you don’t shoot- chance of hitting innocents is high) nor are we going to be able to justify home or self defense past 50 to 75 m, so both weapon systems and their originally designed rounds are both PERFECT AND LETHAL for what they are intended for.
As for AK accuracy? My 20″ saiga benched with an attached Bushnell 3-9 x 40 can make 3-4.5 moa groups based on my patience, and weather conditions, even with wolf 122 gr.The test fire document from the Izhmash factory in the original box indicated approx 3 moa( metric equivalent)- well within combat carbine mil spec. My previous Norinco MAK 90 did 4-5 moa at 100m. Both my BCM and Spikes tactical carbines can shoot 2-3 moa benched on iron sights .
To expect these civilian versions of combat fire arms to be sniper level , one shot stoppers when the respective militaries that deploy the “real thing” don’t , smacks of ignorance of each firearm at best, and “mall ninja ” lack of real world experience at its worst . I have seen what both rifles and their rounds can do to people, and homes( defensive shoot while working for a contractor with an AKM in 2006- easily disabled a 1 ton truck), and have also seen them used on small game( killed a feral 200 lb pig with 69 gr .223 with 2 head shots at 90 yds ) ; the experience with both showed me that these debates are the usual waste of time- neither 5.45×39 or .300 AAC or 6.8 spc will knock the 5.56 or 7.62×39 out of their respective niches……
First, if you don’t like the 7.62×39, don’t get one!! You can still get AKs in either 5.45×39, .223 (nato or civilian spec do not matter unlike ARs) .308, 30-06, 7.62x54r, and even 8mm mauser!! Here’s a partial list. .308: Valmet M76, Zastava M76, Vepr, Galil. 30-06: Zastava M76, Vepr, Saiga??? 7.62x54r: Dragonuv, PSL, Vepr & of course the mighty 8mm Mauser reigns supreme over any .223 in the Zastava M76 which is its original caliber.
The 8mm mauser itself has ended the debate between the .223 vs 7.62×39 vs .300 AAC since 1905. The Zastava M76 offers it in a gun that is built like a tank, thus concluding the debate once and for all since 1976 for all time!!
The AK-74 used with HIGH quality ammo not surplus junk (usually handloads) will give any AR-15 a run for the money in terms of accuracy if a HIGH quality AK or RPK is used with a good trigger. Of course, you can just get a Beryl in .223 and be happy with both the accuracy and excellent reliability. For both platforms, using decent magazines is important.
Any of the 30 calibers here from .308 up are far more accurate, have greater range, and are far more powerful against larger critters then any .223 or any .300 AAC round bar none. To add insult to injury, they are also cheaper to buy in most cases than the .300 AAC!!
The 31 caliber 7.62x54r and 7.92×57 (8mm mauser) leave both the .223 and 300 AAC even further behind especially if quality ammo or handloads are used.
BTW: Armalite offers AR-15s in 7.62×39. So does Ruger with the mini-30. So does savage and CZ with bolt action rifles. I guess these companies are wasting money and have no profits said no one ever!! Arsenal and possibly Selleir & Bellot make reasonably accurate ammo in 7.62×39
Conclusion: My Zastava M76 8mm fires 1.25-1.5 moa with Greek surplus and about 2 moa with M75 Yugo surplus. Sellier & Bellot also fires at 1.5 moa. With Turkish junk and a hot barrel, one has to settle for 3 moa. AR-15 owners never fail to be impressed by my tight groups at 200 yards.
I have a CZ 527, bolt action carbine. I hunt whitetail with it and it is a tack driver. Rarely do deer get more than a few yards before they drop from the 154 grain soft point. I can’t see trading it it for a lighter round at a lower velocity just so I can have the same AR every other Joe in America has….
Oh yeah, it is a 7.62 x 39.
Well the sks and ak47 where heavier riffles but both of them you could pack rocks sand and drop into water and pick them up and still fire. As i own a Russian sks from Vietnam era and also was in the u.s. army and have much experience with the m16a1 and m16a2 which you had to keep clean no rocks or sand or drop into water and pick up and shot they was the most jamming pos I ever shot. Now as for the sks never had a jam and as for hunting up to 250 meters it will cause more damage after that range not so accurate. Now as for the 308x51mm rounds it’s a good round for large game hunting and if you want accuracy in long range with a punch it’s great. Now why did the u.s. go from the me grand to the mini 14. Natoma as we are not a hostile country then why did we go from the mini 14 to the m16a1 and a2. Weight reduction is one reason the m16a1/a2 weighted much less then the mini 14 or the m1 grand. And why did russia go from the 7.62×39 and 5102 to the 5.56mm nate round. That’s was simple once russia was in the Warsaw pact and when then became apart of the nato they change to the same round as all natural members did. But I can tell you this many of our special forces still want the 7.62 rounds it does more damage and packs a punch over the 5.56 rounds. Almost the United states was able to reduce the cost by going to the small round which Congress is alway cutting corners on their cost as well. The very same reason the m16a1 which was fully auto went to the m16a2 it shoots three round burst saving one bullet then repeats. Another savings in rounds plus less heat and stress on the weapon itself and created less jams making it more reliable in the long run. Talk to the Vietnam vets they will tell you the sks was more dependable and they would have preferred the m1 over the m16a1 and also the m1 grand. I have shot all i have mentioned and over all the m1 and the m1 grand as well as the sks and the ak47 is a much better reliable rifle than the m16a1/a2 or the ar15. But again this is a personal experience and preference of each no different than a ford and chevy over on vechicles. And comes down to what you have the least trouble out of is what you try to own. Then it comes down to the person’s skills of how each feels and the pros and cons of all. Some like no kick or 4 cylinder motors and others like medium to small block type power and others like the big kicks like big block power. All will do the job some may take more shots to achieve the goal while others want the one shot one kill. Each designed to achieve the goal of design. As for me I like the sks 7.62×39 and the 308 7.62x51mm rounds best and the design and functionality. It does the job and I don’t have to shoot three round to do the same job that one does. But then again I make each round count. I use the one shot one kill method. This being said all rounds will do the job if the person shooting whatever weapon they choose knows how to maximize the effectiveness of one their skills and know the pros and cons of the tools of their choice. So a 22 or a 5.56 for over the 300 mm shooting is useless or if you have a person on drugs again not a choice I would want. 7.62×39 will take down a person on drugs and is affective in doing so. 7.62x51mm will do so and make sure they don’t get up. Making the goal achieved in my opinion. Then so will a crossbow or a compound bow if one hits the target where it needs to be. As for the 7.62×39 or the 7.62x51mm leaving it will never happen. To good of a round.
I’m sure you meant to say M14 not Mini 14. The m16’s and ar’s/m16’s have come a long way as far as reliability but still not as reliable as it’s Russian counterparts. Personally I’d never use 5.56 on anything bigger than a raccoon I prefer either the 300 blackout or 7.62xeither but the point is they are both different and good for different things. You can’t “compare” them with ought first establishing a set of variables to do so. Until you do that this conversation is pointless. For the most part I agree with your points though.
Are you kidding me!?!?!
Ok first I’d like to say I’m not saying any of this to offend you
(Who am I kidding… Yeah I am! At least I can admit it)
You just bought a 300 blackout and now your having buyers remorse right?
Blackout is just as anemic as the 5.56. The only difference? More drop.
6.8 was supposed to match the terminal effectiveness of what?
Oh yeah the 7.62×39(letting you in on a lil secret…. It actually outperforms 6.8 as you decrease barrel length.
If you don’t know about 7.62×39 ar15s that accept ak mags then you haven’t lived
Look up MGI Hydra
Best gun I’ve ever shot
With modern loadings the 7.62 is just as accurate deadly and reliable than any other round. Usually more so.
Your like the kid that didn’t do his homework on show and tell day! Another kid brings a picture of their cat fluffy. You make a sign that says fluffy sucks!
You’re a childish gun snob that is backing the wrong horse.
Ps. Don’t bother to reply til you can top this with any other intermediate caliber in 20% ballistic gel!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IIFkLAgGy6w
I have a few questions. Everyone goes on and on about how speed is what penetrates. If that is the case why does everyone say that the 7.62×39 travels further into obstacles than 5.56? Also, people say that 7.62×39 is much more powerful than 5.56. I went onto various websites and found the various data…the average 7.62×39 round has around 1500 ft/lbs of energy. The average 5.56 has 1200 ft/lbs of energy. Now, the most powerful 5.56 I could find had 1600 ft/lbs of energy. Why do people say the 7.62×39 is more powerful?
Energy is mass times velocity squared. So velocity is multiplied by itself, meaning weighted significantly more than projectile weight.
Energy=1/2*mass*velocity^2
Where velocity and the smaller diameter of 5.56 matters is against armor and metal plates. Speed defeats these, unless armor is too thick…
Otherwise, against typical intermediate type barriers, be it branches, trees, etc, the mass of the projectile allows it to stay on a truer course and not deflect like 5.56 does. So for auto windshields, concrete walls, etc, 7.62×39’s greater mass results in it maintaining its momentum better.
Momentum = mass • velocity
So you can see that velocity matters less for momentum than for energy… Energy is more the potential of a given cartridge while the momentum is about actual projectile behavior. And energy is transferred throughout bullet’s path — as air friction slows bullet down, energy lessens, etc.
Actual impact — performance of a given cartridge at a given range with a given hardness against a given target is a more complex equation regarding “force” — but both energy and momentum speak to that…
Better damage or penetration down range longer engagement distances. 556 is lighter hence fails in damage and penetration at midrange because the bullet tumbles not so with the 7.62 x 39.
Read all about the different cartridges at http://gundata.org/cartridge/53/7.62x39mm-russian/
This article is full of bovine feces. The author clearly contradicted himself many times and in a variety of ways. The main example i see is where he writes that comparing the AR and AK is comparing apples and oranges, yet he clearly says the AR is better. He also stated the two platforms are both very reliable, “but in different ways”…wtf does that even mean??? A rifle platform is either reliable or it is not. Don’t get me wrong, i completely agree with the two platforms being like apples and oranges but give me a friggin break dude. I love both varieties. I own both varieties. This guy is obsessing over the AR because it is “america’s sweetheart”. Well good for him, but at the very least try and be honest with your discernment. He stated the AK and 7.62×39 is only still around because they are cheap/the ammo is cheap…clearly this guy has no idea or even a slight inclining as to why the AK is so prolific and has been produced in numbers that are a full order of magnitude over the AR platform. This does not mean the AK is better, but it also does not make it any worse. The author listed the prices of 1,000 rounds of ammo for various calibers…and the AKs chambered in 7.62×39 (or even 5.45×39) are clearly the winner from an economical standpoint, and even from a power standpoint as well. 7.63×39 is more powerful than the 300 blackout and the 5.45×39 is flatter shooting and more lethal than the 5.56×45/.223. Not to mention, they are literally half the price too! Don’t believe me about the performance? Well look it up for yourselves. As far as accuracy goes, the shooter comes first, then the rifle, then the ammo. AKs are plenty accuracte for battle ranges of 0 to 300 yards (the distance that the vast majority of ALL firefights take place). Not to mention the 7.62×39 has superior barrier penetration. This guy is just trying to justify himself not liking the AK platform. He says that 300 blackout will “eclipse” sales of 7.62×39…yea, i’m willing to bet all my life savings this will not happen EVER! If i’m wrong then oh well. This article really perturbed me because he ardently stated that separate “schools or churches” were made centering themselves around a specific platform, and that they alienate some of their members…will this guy is 100% guilty of that righteous indignation. Effin A man… effin A. Whatever though, my rant is almost complete. If you have a preference of one rifle over the other that is fine, but trying to win a dick measuring contest just to justify your purchase is juvenile. By both an AK and an AR. Preferably, buy both of good quality. Anyone with even a modicum of honesty and integrity will hastily realize the merits of both platforms. Both have strengths, both have weaknesses, but lastly, having either one is better than having none at all. If someone is in trouble and needs help then i’ll be ready with my AR. If i am in trouble and need to gtfo of town then i’ll be takin my “antiquated” AK…just my 2 pennies for whomever is willing to hear them.
Thia article is very biased against the AK. Yugo npap AK’s imported from century arms are very gorgeous rifles especially with a restain job of the furniture.
Add tech sights and you have a carry rifle that nutnfancy PROVED to be 1MOA WORTHY at 100 yards.
The guns shoot better than we can for sure.
You nailed it–The Yugo Zastava made N-Paps are among the BEST available. I picked up their underfolder model and it is a magnificent AK. However, I did my homework and expected nothing less…moreover, I have a few Zastava pistols like the SIG P226 clone, namely, the CZ999 and it too is of 1) High-End Quality and 2) Remarkably LOW price.
To this day I am an “AK 47” guy…It’s just what I prefer in the “combat/survival” rifle…That said I do not rant on “AR Guys” and probably would buy one if money were no factor but I can not see any compelling reason to compile the components required to duplicates my current 7.62 x 39 environment…If guys can collect multiple calibers (I’m talking about a setup that equates to a “crisis-ready” environment which is costly to be sure). Not that it’s completely analogous but I was at the range earlier in the year with a few Serbian buddies and they were kind of comparing the Americans evident dismay at the 9mm round in favor of the .45acp as analogous, ironically enough though as it’s the utter inverse to the .223.5.56 vs. 7.62 x 39
I might be beating a dead horse here (this is about 3 years old) but saying that the 7.62×39 is an inaccurate round because AK’s and most its cheap variants are inaccurate is a bit of a stretch. The finnish AK variant RK uses the 7.62×39 (even today), and it’s one of the most accurate assault rifles out right now, using a round that has superiour penetration when compared to the 5.56 NATO. Reason why the finns still favor the 7.62 over, for example, the 5.56 is that most of Finland is forest and lakes, and fighting in a forest means there’s tons of branches, trees, stumps, etc. etc., things that would affect the 5.56mm bullets trajectory (it is quite light and small after all) where as the 7.62×39 is less affected, if at all. Also the reason why finnish troops are trained to conserve ammunition, avoid full auto and bursts and concentrate in firing accurate single shots at a distance and picking their targets, thus not needing to carry around 50 tons of ammo just to spray it at every bush around that happens to shake a little.
Never heard of the RK 62, but now I want one 🙂
You do bring up a good point though, and that is that 7.62×39 in and of itself is not inaccurate, but rather the guns traditionally used to fire them (with the exception of guns like the RK or Galil). Since a lot of folks can’t afford a more accurate version of an AK variant, the cheap ones get purchased more often, thus leading to the conclusion that AK rifles are inaccurate, and by association, 7.62×39.
I made myself an AKM clone from a Saiga sporter, and I’ve honestly never even bothered trying to sight it in properly, but next time I bring the AR’s to the range, this one will come too just to see what it can do. I love the rifle, and part of me wants to use it on a Run ‘N Gun I’m going to just to prove it can be done, but I don’t have faith it can. Guess I’ll need to put it through its paces and verify.
Just curious though what, besides the increased sight radius and hammer forged barrel, makes the RK so much more accurate than a standard AK?
Boy I tell you Beavis, you’re a stupid son-of-a-bitch….
my vz58 has beat too many AR-15s in competition to count
Three years later and 7.629 is still here, still cheaper, still far more prevalent than 300blkout. Yes, 300 blackout is available at Walmart but it’s 78 cents a round and 7.62×39 ar platform rifles have never been more available than they are now. So much for the death of the 7.62×39. So much for the world domination of the 300 blackout.
pff 2000 words to say you like the ar because its american.
your “explosive innovation” is nothing else than a half cooked product getting patched along the way. as for the ak system, you find it in the dragunov, pkp, saiga, and vintorez rifles. its so similar that many pieces are interchangeable. that much over the flexibility of the ar15. im talking 70’s-80’s since today you could change a ruger 1022 into an assault weapon. ps. you put a scope on your modern ak and you got 600 m practical range. so much about its lack of accuracy.
then you got the issue 5.56 haven’t got enough stopping power. that’s why spec forces favor 7.62. and regardles if its in x39 or x45 format. but obviously you missed that one. go back to playing cs, kiddo. you know sh*t and only from hearing
What uneducated idiot wrote this drivel ?
This article reeks of bias against the scary evil ‘commie rifle’ ; The AK47. It presents more by emotion than it does hard facts. The AK47 (the oldest iteration of the platform I am aware of) vs. the AR15/M16/M4 is a worn out beat to death argument. Neither one is better than the other. Within the effective range of the AK47, I would be more afraid of being hit by the 7.62 than the 5.56, but that’s like comparing shades of grey really. I’d rather not get hit by either if I could help it. My AK I bought with my own hard earned money is as accurate as I realistically need it to be. It has a mossberg supposedly match grade barrel and it hits the target fine. The groupings being what they are is more to do with my capability as a shooter than the capability of the gun and cartridge I’m using. I’ve seen people hit a target out a few hundred yards with relative ease with a bushmaster AR15 and then set it down and pick up an arsenal AK and nail the same target without problems. By the time you’re reaching out to ranges that the 7.62×39 has lost too much steam, the 5.56mm has lost much of it’s effectiveness too. If you REALLY need to reach out and touch someone the fact is that neither of the cartridges are really ideal. I’d prefer the extra punch of the 7.62x54R, or 7.62×51 or .50BMG :). But seriously, neither cartridge is better across the board at everything. Each has their specific limitations as well as advantages and will be useful for you as long as you use it the way it was intended to be used. The 7.62×39 has been in production by many different factories for over 70 years and it’s far from dead.
I’m really old (74) and have been shot with both an AK (VC) and an AR (friendly fire) in 2 separate tours in SE Asia. Both hits were from a little over 200 yards. Both put me out of action for a while…which is what the guns and rounds were designed to do.
I don’t think that the country has the stomach for SHTF ; but if it happens i have a couple of examples of each, with soft point ammo for both types. Which is more effective ?? A moot point. With no medical help available If that time comes, it won’t matter ……..
Hope this helps to put things in perspective ……..
The author of this article is full of bull. He is just trying to sell people on the 300BO. I have a Romanian WASR 10. I have owned many AKM and AR variations. I will choose an AKM veriation all day over an AR. The AKM is so simple a child can operate and maintain it. The AKM has as many applications as the AR without changing caliber. It is an inexpensive one size fits all platform. Furniture is as easily customized as the AR, actually easier. Once you get a quality sight system set on it you can humanely dispatch game at greater ranges than with any AR 15 caliber. You have to step up to the AR 10 in a 308 to match the 7.62×39. I personally love both weapon systems, but if I have to choose I will take the AKM.
The taper on the 7.62x39mm round greatly contributes to its feed and extraction reliability, while a well made AK like the Finnish Rk 62 is very accurate.
The article while long is flawed, it assumes and continues to assume the 7.62×39 is an inaccurate round.
False the 7.62×39 is very close in ballistics to other more well know 6.5mm yet because the 7.62×39 is used in a semi auto which are not know inheritable for their accuracy the the writer presume the fault is the round not the gun.
In a CZ 527 in 7.62×39, would run circles around and AR and rightfully so. But it does so because of the rifles build not the ammunition used. And AK is not built nor was it built for long ranger accurate placement it was made for close medium contact with maximum damage. Which is does well with the 7.62×39, it not old out of style no more then a 30.06 would be. They do what they do well. Now the Ar is a wonder design and platform. And why it was designed to be used in war time it is not the same firearm we see in the states if one were to compare a military AR with a military AK you would find they are near equal accept in very rare unique circumstances. That said the 7.62×39 has the ability to penetrate that the AR rounds do not and in a combat situation where persons are behind vehicles, walls and other dense material being able to get 1-2 MOA at 300 yards with and AR may not be as well served as the 7.62×39 in and AK at 75yards. But what do I know.
This was an attention whore article. ‘Woooo look at me, I’m sayin’ “Shizit-can the 7.62×39!!” I have two news flashes for you.
1. The x39 ain’t going anywhere. Tula 122 FMJ will keep 5 shots in 3″ from our CZ-527, from 200 yards. My WASR will not quite double that, 5 shots from a cool barrel. I just ordered 1000 rounds for $248 shipped.
2. The 300 BLK ain’t replacing anything. Considering #1 above, why the hell would I want one? Answer: So I can get almost x39 performance from an AR.
No thanks, I like what I got. But it’s a free country and I won’t be dogmatic and suggest that the effort put into the 300 BLK would have been better spent improving x39 loads.
RIGHT! I made the mistake of trying to read and reread it for vital data points which only resulted in me throwing up in my mouth a little.
I’ve got a Zastava M85, an AK that fires 5.56 from regular STANAG magazines. Best of both worlds IMO
This complexly worded article has no fewer than 25 grammatical errors. This alone should be offensive enough yet it is secondary to the fact the author has obviously tried to use a complex linguistic fashion to show his or her expertise on the subject matter as superior. A truly offensive faux pas.
Good Day Sir!
PS Next time just form a piece the reader can enjoy and grasp what the hell it is you mean to convey and forget putting on airs….
Ughhhh, I feel so confused after reading, no better yet, tyring to read this fable of mixed stories mixed with fact of matter and a ton of bullsh*&. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF A WRITTER SIR!
Haha, Just kidding but really this peice sucks. It gave me a real headach….
I own neither an AR nor and AK, so I have no horse in this race, but this article was absolutely beyond idiotic. Apparently someone shooting your brand new pistol in .300 was more impressed than your AK, which has been around for 60 years and is nothing new. Is that supposed to be surprising? Nothing in this article was helpful or informative, just some shill piece, probably for your sponsor.
Arguments about which firearm/cartridge is best is, quite frankly, bull crap! Who sets the standard, who gets to determine for all involved which one is THE best?! All firearms and ammunition have inherent capabilities and shortcomings. A prospective arms owner purchases his/her weapon based on what they want to do with it after analyzing the aforementioned attributes…for hunting, target shooting or defense.
My wife and I own four carbines chambered in 7.62X39mm, not because we think it to be a better round than some others. We bought the two ARs from Palmetto State Armory in this caliber over a year ago because we already had the Russian & Chinese SKS carbines and over 5K rounds of ammo. It was a simple question of logistics for us and we have never regretted that decision.
We use 20 round ASC magazines and from day 1 both ARs have run flawlessly. The longest range available to us is 200 yards…firing Wolf, Red Army Standard and Barnaul and we consistently get an average of 9-10 inch groups at that range off the bench. The RAS cartridges strike at a different point than the Wolf or Barnaul. The 3½ inch difference in barrel lengths (SKS 20″, AR 16½”) is negligible.
We have had the SKS carbines for over three years now and they have proven to be very dependable and capable of “minute of bad guy” accuracy. Frankly that is all we are interested in as far as these carbines are concerned! We have commercial rifles with scopes for hunting.
Whatever firearm one has, whether it is used for hunting, defense or whatever…we should be proficient with it or it might as well be left at home.
Blah blah blah
I have Crohns and diabetes but have no desire to treat Crohns with it. Back then it first became legal in Colorado we were there and the group I was with purchased some . So I gave it a try.
For some reason I became very aware of my tinnitus , to the point where it was very distracting.
Thought maybe that was a one time deal so a few days later gave it another try. Nope, same problem.
Now if it would keep me from losing any more colon I might decide it’s worthwhile but they are not saying it can do that.
Yes, because Cannabis is so widely known to make people aggressive, violent and confrontational.
There needs to be a law that lawmakers cannot make laws on subjects that they have zero information on. Better yet, we need an amendment that allows the People (via referendum) to revoke laws that are bullshit. Make us like the Delegislative Branch. Congress sets em up, we knock em down. The Supreme Court doesn’t do anything proactive, only reactive (i.e. they only look at laws that reach their desks via court cases).
This garbage has to stop.
I go with 6 per modern pistol, and whatever I can get for the milsurp or older pistols. I will add more as time goes on to around 10. For rifles, I’ve lost count. I went with around 10 per rifle at the start, that ratio has dropped as I added rifles. Some of those rifles take special mags or followers so they only get two or so.
Fud fud fud fud fud fud fud fud fud fud
A proper trigger job on a gun makes the gun more accurate. Not hard to make the case this indicates the owner was very concerned about the eventual resting place of any projectiles leaving the firearm and spent the time and money to ensure they would stop where he wanted them to. Of course a prosecutor is going to try to make something of the trigger job especially if his case is weak.
No. They will leave that to the feds to do the dirty work. That way they can claim innocence even though they will provide the names and addresses to the feds. Hypocrites but they are democrats so there’s that.
It matters to ME! I want more and better gunz????????????
Movie had its strong points, but it’s hard to overlook when someone disobeys orders twice, the second time getting a lot of people needlessly killed, yet still seems to be considered a hero. Not a good message.
Serious question:
If one gets a MJ license, they go on a list. If they do not renew that MJ license,. do they come off the list?
I ask for a friend…
Probably not. Legally, after a certain undefined point, they should. (If the list we’re talking about is NICS and marijuana is the only reason the hypothetical totally not you person is on the list).
It shouldn’t be that hard to sue and get off the list. Not cheap, but not hard either.
“Why do the antis get their knickers in a twist about supposed “super owners”?”
As a non-gun-owner for the first four decades of my adulthood, I retain a slightly enhanced insight into the mind of the nervous antis. There really is a faith that the police will keep safe everyone who deserves it. An anti avoids danger and bad neighborhoods and spends his money to keep it that way. The police are on his side.
Also, the enthusiasm that some people have for fine wines and Persian carpets is similar to the enthusiasm others have for guns. The antis view the POTG as dangerous because the pleasure of consumption of a gun (as opposed to that of fine wine) means firing the gun. The antis know that firing the gun AT SOMETHING is dangerous and not controlled by responsible people, i.e. the police. Of course the limitations and infringements we all chafe at are a stand-in for confiscation. Understanding the responsibility that POTG feel toward their long- and short-barreled children does not come easily, or probably at all, to the antis.
I was neutral and uncomprehending for years. When I did decide to love guns, I was made confident (of avoiding shooting at the wrong time.) Every step of my growth into the POTG community was accompanied by dumb questions, internet searches, and a growing knowledge that the fun was far greater than the need for obsessive worry. Prudence and common sense almost always prevail.
But why should gun owners have more than one gun, they wonder. They might admit with difficulty that different purposes require different guns: shoot varmints, shoot deer for food, shoot aggressive bears to save human life, shoot bad people who can’t be argued out of violence.. Maybe. What they don’t see is that guns are more like bottles in a wine cellar. Why does a guy have more that one AR rifle? They TASTE DIFFERENT! Wine connoisseurs don’t open bottles indiscriminately; neither do gun owners shoot indiscriminately. Jay Leno doesn’t drive more than one of his collectible cars at once, does he? Should we confiscate the heaviest or fastest cars he owns? Why should an anti assume that there exists an intense pressure of using multiple guns the same day doing something illegal? Do they see the burden of owning more guns that one can possibly shoot in a short time as incitement of the gun owner to homicide? Their logic is akin to the reasoning, “Mommy’s cold, put on a sweater.” They project much and empathize little.
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.” 1 John 4:18
This is a really old and in my mind stupid comparison! First of all, you have to compare apples to apples. The AR represents an entirely different mindset than the AK…. built differently and used differently. Actually there are many Special Forces operators who prefer the AK over the AR. Why? Because it’s more reliable in extreme conditions and because in battlefield conditions barrier penetration becomes an important factor so the 7.62 does the job. Also it is very likely that a US operator working behind enemy lines will sooner find parts and ammo for an AK but not an AR. Last but not least, in the hands of a highly skilled op, the AK will be every bit as accurate as an AR provided both are quality machines. The 300 Blackout won’t make the AR as good as an AK when used for its intended purpose simply because the AR is a less reliable weapon system with more moving parts. So all that doesn’t mean much unless you plan on going to to war. Otherwise every shooter worth his/her salt should own both platforms and enjoy! These are truly fun guns to shoot that will also serve well for self defense with training.
SKS imo is better in ways than the AK that followed. If the SKS had a 30 round mag capacity i think the SKS wouldnt have been so easily replaced and the stamped parts of the AK made it cheaper to make, its my opinion the SKS is also lil more accurate.
A good round for the AR15/M16M4 is the 6.5 creedmore..
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Бисексуалы или гомосексуалы выбирают категории «Геи», «Трансы» и чувствуют себя в них комфортно.заработок для женщин
The elephant in the room is that the AK is an antique. It has no last round hold open, poor ergonomics, and poor to no options for a scope mount (for the underfolder carbine in particular). And even if you don’t care about those things the AK still has poor accuracy.
Nuff said!
Charlie