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You may have noticed that TTAG’s focused all but one of its most recent posts on the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. I’ve done this out of respect to those affected by the tragedy, as a reflection of the incident’s importance to the debate over gun control. Tomorrow (Monday), the reactions will become even more heated. After consulting with a couple of my homies, I’ve decided to keep up a full court press, with some of the usual TTAGery thrown in. At some point, we will return to our usual mix of rants, reviews and stuff. Meanwhile, I would remind our readers on both sides of the issues raised by this spree killing to respect each other. And if not that, to refrain from personal flaming (which will be deleted). Remember: this is not the first such incident. Nor, sadly, will it be the last. No matter what any of us does to try to prevent it.

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  1. This was a very sad tragedy that should never have happened, but bad and good things happen in the real world and no one will ever change that fact.

  2. This is a collegial site where people who enjoy guns and shooting can congregate and share, agree, disagree and sometimes needle each other. So why not flame the lunatic fringe of the left wing who attempt to disrupt us? We don’t enjoy being scolded by immature political sophists, and there’s no reason that I can see to stand for it. Not here.

    • I’m with Robert and Joe. Crap happens in this world, with and without guns. I personally think flaming against the passive crowd serves to do nothing but make us appear as emotionally driven as they are. I say this as someone who has flamed against someone on here and have regretted it because I feel that the other readers will not take me seriously whether or not they are on my side of the issue or not. Simply put, we are the rational folk in this debate. We acknowledge that God threw us out of Eden a long time ago. We know that things go south when walking through this world long enough. Let’ continue to let the lunatics be as such.

      • Buuurr, Thanks for the apology. Or am I being an egomaniac again to think you were referring to “flaming” me.

        In all seriousness, I congratulate Robert on running a fantastic blog. I agree with his attempts at keeping it civil, even though I sometimes deviate from that lofty goal myself.

  3. Actually, it will happen again and again and again.

    But it’s not because the gunloon community is doing anything to prevent it. In fact, they are working very hard to ensure it happens more frequently and with greater bloodshed.

    It’s kind of amazing that you’d try to take on the task of polling gunloons on their prejudices but are absolutely deadset against trying to see if you can reduce gun violence.

    • That’s not what I said. Or have said. Or will say. Or believe. I believe that mature adults have to accept the fact that freedom is not free. It may be a piercing glimpse into the obvious, but the freedom to defend my life and the lives of my loved ones with lethal force (against tyranny and criminality) is also the “freedom” to be attacked by evil people with access to firearms. Or accidentally shot by people who should know better.

      Jade, don’t be obtuse. You and I know there’s only so much you can do to prevent or reduce evil. At some point, the cure is worth than the disease. Look at the countries where there are total or near-total gun bans. Are they free from spree killers? No they are not. They may have less crime or gun crime, but have it they do. And it’s just as horrific when it happens.

      More to the point, do other countries have less individual freedom and liberty than the United States? You and I have lived abroad. Both of us have an informed opinion on the question. I say America is still the Land of the Free. What say you? Even without arguing relative murder or crime or gun crime stats, would you trade America’s system of government for theirs if we could reduce gun crime?

      Seriously. Would you?

      • “Freedom isn’t free.”

        Ahh, yes. Slogans and Toby Keith lyrics are the panacea for everything.

        No, we cannot prevent evil or bad things from occurring. But we can mitigate them. Kindly don’t call me ‘obtuse’ when you suggest we cannot prevent every instance of evil but are willing to live with such high levels of violence. Yes, other countries may have mass killings but they’re nowhere near as frequent and your chance of being a victim of violence in those countries is a fraction of what it is here.

        Also, please don’t wrap yourself in the flag and claim American exceptionalism, it’s really unbecoming. There are democracies in the world that do a much better job than we do in ensuring both the civil liberties and the safety of its citizens. We can hum “the Battle Hymn of the Republic” and pretend we are the land of the free–but it’s not really true. If we remove our rose-colored glasses we can easily see we have a two-tiered system to almost every facet of our public institutions.

  4. Yes, it will happen again and again and again then it will happen some more and there’s no law or ban or restriction that will ever stop it. Bad things will always happen in life and no ban or person will ever be able to stop a criminal with evil intentions. It’s just one of those facts of life that the gun dislikers (I don’t call anyone a gunh***r or a M***N anymore because I now have a kinder gentler side and it don’t do any good to insult other people’s opinions) have to get used to. It’s sad to say but we don’t live in a perfect world and there will always be some sort of tragedy to deal with and no one will ever change this fact.

  5. JadeGold,

    We live in a country with low levels of violence, that are getting lower (FBI stats). That’s not to say we should be complacent. But it’s also not to say that we should make it harder for law-abiding Americans to purchase and carry firearms to protect them (us?) from non-law abiding criminals and mentally ill murderers. Where’s the evidence that such a thing is even possible?

    I have to say that I am taken aback by your obvious distaste, both relatively and in absolute terms, for the American system of government. I know your partner mikeb302000 lives in Italy. Do you live with him? How can you condemn America for having a two-tier system from within a country as class-bound as Italy?

    Just wonderin’ . . .

    • Sorry, Robert, I don’t want to compare America to Italy. There could never be a better example of apples and oranges. I’m American in every way except primary residence. I happen to think the “American system” is pretty fucked up. I’ve been developing this idea since I was in the Marines during the Viet Nam War. And guess what, I’m not the only one who thinks that.

      I know you didn’t ask me, you asked Jadegold, but there it is.

      What this has to do with the gun debate, I don’t know. You’re the one who started the flag-waving and Jadegold called you on it.

  6. When there is a mass killing in the US, there are calls for more gun control. But when there are less frequent mass killings in other countries with strict gun control, what happens there? Calls for still more gun control of course, no matter how harsh the existing gun laws are.

    And, in those countries further down the anti-gun road, it is likely that those calls for still more gun control will actually result in yet harsher gun control and more types of gun bans and more types of gun confiscations.

    Hmm — I wonder if that has anything to do with the reluctance of American gunowners to agree to similar gun control here?

  7. “Because the same firepower that Loughner unleashed on innocent victims could save the life of an innocent person armed with a Glock 19 with a 30-round magazine when faced by an assailant or assailants. Sad, but true.”
    But it didn’t. That is what is sad.
    Where were those Glock carriers when needed? So you really don’t need a 30-round clip, where, if you are worth a damn, you just need that ONE in the chamber.

  8. I luv Ralph, I couldn’t have said it any better. (it’s almost like you read my mind, but I am now a kinder gentler soul who no longer insults anyone LOL)

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