A Gun Dealer On ‘The New Normal’ and the Ordeal of Buying Guns and Ammo Now

virus America gun sales store

(AP Photo/Ringo H.W. Chiu)

As much as I am loathe to throw around mindless jargon such as “the new normal” and “quarrantold,” the reality is that this year has…unusual. The situation has caught a lot of younger and less experienced gun owners off guard — let alone the completely inexperienced first-timers — and some advice on gun availability, ammo shortages, and how to navigate all of that seemed a good idea.

Let’s start at the beginning. Not a single firearm retailer or experienced gun owner had any idea what 2020 would have in store for us. I probably go a little overboard buying some gun-related items, but who among us in the gun culture hasn’t gone overboard a time or two?

I have plenty of guns, FMJ and defensive ammo in calibers that I have guns for. In the calibers for guns I do not own — in the event things go crazy — I have enough to help some of my friends with a trade/swap and plenty of magazines and other gun stuff that’s useful 365 days a year.

Most of my firearms are chambered in 9mm and as a result, I keep a 12-16 month supply of parabellum on hand at any given time. Why? Because I’ve seen this happen before with elections, mass shootings, and other moments of world insanity. I am NOT willing to compromise my ability to go to the range in order to make my high yield savings account look a little better.

In fact, I did the math. It cost me less than $3000 to have a serviceable stack of 9mm, defensive ammo, mags, rifle ammo, etc. for a “general SHTF” loadout. My anti-gun friends think my stash of 10,000 rounds of 9mm makes me insane. Naturally, they were some of the first to ask me for some ammunition when they weren’t able to find any. You don’t get to call me a crazy ammosexual when times are normal and ask me to subsidize your unprepared nature when times get crazy.

We’ve seen crazy before, and I’m not talking political shifts or mass shooting-related knee-jerk gun buying.

Nearly 20 years ago, hours after the planes hit the towers on 9/11, people were streaming into gun stores buying anything they could find because we were under attack from an enemy that wasn’t visible, wasn’t understood, much less well known. What was known was that a lot of people had “some ammo” at home and that didn’t seem like enough given the circumstances.

Sound familiar?

It’s almost as if 2020 is the year of history repeating itself. What will the rest of 2020 look like? We’re halfway through it, and it’s not looking like anything is getting better any time soon.

Demand is still outstripping supply on many different fronts on firearms and ammunition. Vendors have flat out told dealers that there’s nothing to ship and they should expect shelves for a while. Larger dealers get filled first, smaller dealers get the short end of the stick since they are, well, smaller accounts.

We’re seeing $500-650/thousand on 9mm FMJ 115gr online among the dealers that have anything left. Even Palmetto State Armory is picked clean on 9mm as of this writing, save for some defensive ammo at about $40 for a 20-round box.

Some firearms that aren’t considered “mainstream” — CZ’s, Berettas, Browning Buckmarks, double-barrel shotguns, etc. are available — as are bolt action rifles in 7mm Mag, .243 Winchester, and 6.5 CM. So is the ammunition that supports them.

What does this mean for the new gun owner who’s headed down to the store to purchase a GLOCK 17, Mossberg 500, and or a Smith & Wesson M&P AR-15? It means they are coming home empty-handed.

Post Sandy Hook, it took approximately two years for the industry to get things back on track with items back on the shelves. And that was without the threat of a presidential candidate taxing semi-automatic firearms and any magazine that holds 10+ cartridges.

Everyone is dealing with the state of the world differently now. In an effort to remain objective, I’m reserving my personal opinions and I’m going to report on some things we’re seeing. With quarantines being rescinded in many places and the nation slowly opening back up, I got a chance to do something I had not done in quite a long time. I paid a visit to a local gun show.

There was a line out the door since the promoters were limiting how many people could go into the building at any given time, trying to keep the room less crowded than normal. There was a lot of hand sanitizer dispensers and face masks available for attendees. I think I saw someone discreetly trying to take people’s temperatures on the way in with an infrared thermometer.

As I made my way in, I checked in with some friends who are also in the industry and selling guns and I took some notes on how they’re handling things as I made my way around the room. My first stop was near the entrance. My friend Terry is a dealer who specializes in police trade-ins and buying and selling used guns. With a great spot near the entrance of the hall, he normally does a LOT of wheeling and dealing.

He has a home FFL and operates out of his garage and works a lot of gun shows since city zoning will not let him do walk-up business in his house.

Terry was not happy. He had sold a mountain of his stuff right as the pandemic began in March and April and has not been able to re-stock since. His three tables at the gun show had a smattering of pistols and shotguns left. Terry told me that, with no inventory, it wouldn’t be worth it for him to spend nearly $300 on tables to do a gun show with nothing to sell.

gun show

Ah, the good-old days. (AP Photo/Matt York)

What he had left were oddball pistols and some ugly, beat-up shotguns. Still, I was confident that he would sell all of them at the show judging by the frenzied pace of the customers at the show.

My next stop was my old buddy Phil. He has a business on the side selling ammo, MRE’s and survival gear on the weekends at gun shows. I immediately noticed he was light on inventory. His 9mm was scarce and priced at $550/thousand for a brand I had never heard of before. I asked him how he was handing the present environment and he said . . .

  • 9mm FMJ is selling for more than .45 ACP FMJ. f he can get $550/thousand on Gunbroker he should be getting $550/thousand at the show.
  • He’s buying brands that he’s usually doesn’t because that’s all he can get from vendors. In other words, he’s not getting what he wants, he’s getting what’s left.
  • Everything is being sold faster than it can come in/get manufactured.

Phil sells at least a pallet or two of pistol and rifle ammo at every gun show, so this kind of disruption to his supply lines make things tough for him.

Imagine if you owned a gas station and you couldn’t buy gas, soda or Slim Jims to re-stock. Not a pretty picture. That’s the world we’re living in until things calm down, whenever that may be.

As I told him I’d catch him later, he gave me a nod as he wrote up his last case of Winchester Super X 1 oz 12 gauge deer slugs for $2.50 a shell.

I strolled around the show and, as you’d expect, inventories were a lot lighter than normal. I didn’t see the normal smorgasbord of black rifles, black pistols, and other neat stuff. I saw lots of junk being hawked at the highest possible price to customers who didn’t know any better…or didn’t seem to care.

My old boss at the pawnshop where I worked many years ago had a very interesting sales technique – he called it SWAT-ing a customer. SWAT, meaning Sell What’s Available Today. And boy howdy, did it work.

It didn’t matter what it was or how unsuitable it was to a customer. It only mattered that it was better that they had it in their hands or on their nightstand rather than sitting in inventory. I never really understood why someone would buy something that obviously didn’t fit or was of dubious quality, but I’ve always been picky about the items I own and stock as a function of experience.

What I saw at the gun show was a lot of SWAT-ing people. A good case can be made that these are the tactics of a brilliant business mind. A good case can also be made that these are the tactics of an ethically questionable FFL.

After getting some beef jerky — which seemed like the only gun show item that hadn’t decreased in availability and increased in price — I found my friend Rod. Rod works for a large law enforcement distributor and sells a ton of used police trade-in guns. His company has the law enforcement market cornered and does a ton of blue label GLOCK, LE S&W, LE SIGs, LE HK firearms and the like.

His three tables normally look like a smorgasbord of police trade-in pistols and rifles, lot of GLOCK .40 S&W G22’s and G23’s, Bushmaster Patrolmans, 20″ Colt Sporters made during the AWB that are seeing the light of day for the first time in decades, and a bunch of new GLOCK and SIG pistols.

What has 2020 done to him? He had ZERO commercial GLOCKs in stock. ZERO police trade-in guns in stock. He’s got a few new Berettas, some new SIG P365’s that just came in, a few J-frame revolvers and a mishmash of KelTec rifles, shotguns and consignment guns.

I chatted with him for a moment during a lull in the action. He had sold through about 75% of his 1000+ gun inventory of commercial GLOCK, SIG and HK pistols as the pandemic began. What was left going into the George Floyd rioting flew out the door as Minneapolis burned and he’s now sitting on nothing.

I asked him what kind of pricing he was getting, knowing full well that GLOCK 19X’s were selling for as much as $1500 on Gunbroker, GLOCK 19’s were going for $1000 and things have been pretty nuts.

Rod me that they had 19X’s tagged at $675 and GLOCK 19’s at $549. They were the first things to sell out and they have not had any re-stock. I asked him what he thought about dealers raising prices and he stated matter of factly that his customers would shoot him if he raised prices like that. He said taking advantage of people in a crisis was immoral and dishonest.

He began to get busy again and I got ready to exit the show.

On my way out, I passed a dealer with a lot of people at his table. It was lined with a ton of inventory, new and used, and I glanced down at some of the tags. GLOCK 19’s were $850, G17’s, and G43X’s were $760 and most of the AR-15’s were MSRP plus about $100.

I heard the following exchange in passing:

Customer: Hey, someone told me you were selling GLOCK 19’s for $850. Is that right?

Dealer: That’s right.

Customer: How do you sleep at night you asshole? I’m going to call GLOCK and report you.

Dealer: For what?

Customer: PRICE GOUGING during a time of crisis, in direct violation of your contract with GLOCK. You know these guns should be $549 and you’re just taking advantage of people.

Dealer: They don’t have to buy them.

Customer: Do you really expect people to buy a gun that they can get online for $549 for $850?

Dealer: It’s a free country. Been selling them all morning at that price.

Other Customer: Hey, is this GLOCK 19 Gen 5 really $850?

Dealer: Yes, and it’s my last one.

Other Customer: I’ll take it.

I did not expect a GLOCK 19s to sell for $850, nor would I have expected multiples to sell at that price and then sell out of them at that price. Granted, I didn’t expect a massive global contagion or a police officer with the trust of the public to murder someone in their custody on camera…but here we are. Things are certifiably crazy in the gun business right now and there are no signs of it abating any time soon.

The upcoming election is putting some fear in the minds of gun owners that a Biden win could result in an actual shift in gun politics. That’s funny, since the NRA table at the show wasn’t getting much traction at all. People wanted their guns and ammo, not NRA memberships.

As I left the gun show with my bag of beef jerky and a notepad, I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears and I struggle to believe it: this is the new normal.

There are no guns, no ammo, and no clue what’s happening next. Retailers that have not raised prices are sold out of everything that’s popular. Retailers that have doubled or tripled prices are also sold out.

How do we navigate this?

As far as guns and ammo, I have no problem waiting things out. If you need something sooner than later, calling around (if anyone picks up the phone) or looking online can be useful, although oftentimes the large internet gun dealers drop-ship and that can take up to 14 business days to get orders fulfilled.

There’s a ton of stuff on Gunbroker and retailers that have stock have jacked up their prices if you are willing to pay for it.

What I’m hearing from my customers is that they have found success in waitlisting, email or text when in stock at larger retailers like Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc. on ammo and other hard-to-find items. They snap up a case or two when they come available.

Keeping the powder dry and waiting things out is probably going to be the best plan of action, assuming you’re stocked well enough in the mean time. Be strategic with your shopping and purchase smart, not in a panic. I wouldn’t spend the kind of money that others are spending on guns and ammo right now, but that’s because I have plenty of both. All of the people out there looking for their first gun are dealing with a different reality.

During times like these, I think back to a phrase I saw on a receipt after a dinner out. It said “There are no spare customers” and it was attributed to Tilman Fertitta, the owner of the Houston Rockets and hundreds of restaurants across the country. The gist of it is that as business owners, we are supposed to take care of everyone who walks in the door as best we can because if we don’t, they’ll go elsewhere.

What I’m struggling with is, how do we take care of everyone when everything is out of stock?

Honesty is traditionally the best policy. I’ve been telling everyone we’re out, we have no idea when we’re going to get stuff in and to wait things out. Most folks are really understanding and are waiting. Others are driving to every gun store in a 60-mile radius looking for 9mm defensive ammo at every pawn shop, gun store, and sporting goods retailer. Desperate times beget desperate measures.

This is the new normal, and it’s not changing any time soon.

As perverse as it sounds, as the unrest in Seattle, Portland, Austin, etc. increases in intensity and frequency, the more the rest of the country fears that their hometown is next, and the more guns and ammo people are looking to buy.

I doubt the situation will get better before it gets worse. I hope I’m wrong. As mentioned before, the most recent data point for anything resembling this kind of demand was post-Sandy Hook in 2013 and 2014 where it took about two years for the market to stabilize.

Keep your eyes open for stuff you need online and in stores. Snap it up if you need it and it’s within your price tolerance. My hunch is that it will be about two years before things normalize and get back into the rhythm that we are used to.

comments

  1. avatar LifeSavor says:

    Everytime I read an essay like this, I think “Gosh, I hope the 3k rounds of 9mm I have will be sufficient”.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      Good article. This line stuck out for me, though:

      “My anti-gun friends think my stash of 10,000 rounds of 9mm makes me insane.

      Two takeways from that:

      1) What is 10K of 9mm called? A good start.
      2) How/why does his anti-gun friends know what’s in his inventory? I can imagine divulging the contents of your collection to perhaps a few trusted POTG for good OPSEC, but if anti-gun people know what you have, then somebody’s talking too much…

      1. avatar JC’s Hype Squad says:

        Uh huh. Cool. But what has happened to James Campbell???

        1. avatar Geoff "Trolls, the other white meat" PR says:

          He’s ‘taking care’ of your old lady since you’re unable to do it yourself. All that time you spend in front of your computer seething with impotent rage about others smarter than you must really tire you out.

          Instead of pissing-and-moaning about others on the internet, try taking care of your home situation first… 😉

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      …based on this info…it sounds like a good time to sell some stuff…..

    3. avatar busybeef says:

      That would get me through one month of competitive shooting.

  2. avatar American Patriot says:

    I find it funny……As I sit back with all my stash that I’ve been building since 2016, people laughed at me too for the quantities I was buying……..Now I’m laughing!!!!!

    1. avatar Optimistic Engineer says:

      After the prior ammo pricing, I kept buying after Trump was elected, and prices plummeted, I bought when ammo was cheap. When California went nuts in 2019, I watched from the sidelines thinking this was nuts, but my friends comments bugged me.

      Now I am smug. I might sell a few pistols.

  3. avatar jwm says:

    If you have no gun at all and the shelves are bare then even a Mosin Nagant or a Hi Point looks damn good.

    If I was one of those folks that had no gun at all I would shop around and get a shotgun until things cooled down some. My local stores still have a few new shotguns on the racks and a few rifles, mostly bolt guns.

    1. avatar No one of consequence says:

      Well, yes, but you know what you’re doing re guns.

      Most people who didn’t already have one, likely got most of their knowledge from TV and movies. This is why, I think, the local stores are basically out of pump shotguns but well-stacked on the semi-autos. If it doesn’t make the “shick-shick” sound, people who don’t know any better don’t want it.

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        Unless it’s a newer Rem 870, in which case it goes “shick-schik…clunk”.

        Ask me how I know. 😐

        1. avatar jwm says:

          The new ones ain’t worth a dime.

  4. avatar GunnyGene says:

    Interesting article, but it seems to me (having read several other similar articles) that what is being described is largely confined to medium and large cities and the surrounding burbs. Down here in rural MS, there is no shortage of firearms at small retail shops, and most ammo is still available with the exception of the popular calibers such as 9mm and 5.56. And of course, this being MS, most everyone is already well armed and stocked up, and no paperwork delays for permits, etc. Want a gun and ammo here? All it takes is money, and prices aren’t much higher than they were a year ago.

    1. avatar Victoria Illinois says:

      You are sooooooooooooooo lucky. Nothing here in the suburbs. Shelves are empty.
      I’d guess Chicago is “more” empty.

      1. avatar Art out West says:

        Things aren’t too bad around here either (medium size town Inland Northwest). I bought some basic brass fmj 9mm the other day for $11.99 a box. That means the price is up a buck or two over normal. I picked up a few pmags for $10 each (the normal price here).

        My local gun store has a little less selection than normal, but still has some of everything. There are quite a few pistols to choose from as well as a few ARs.

        For example I noticed a good condition used SW9VE on the shelf for $235. That is a totally functional (heavy trigger) basic pistol. If I desperately lacked a handgun, I’d pick up that gun.

        Fortunately I have a good supply of guns and ammo.

    2. avatar Hush says:

      GunnyGene have you been shopping lately?

      1. avatar GunnyGene says:

        Last week, in fact. Also, I typically hit a couple local shops 2 or 3 times a month for ammo, and occasionally pick up a gun. Bought a Sig about 2 months ago. Was in and out in about 15 minutes – no lines, no problems. The shop probably had in excess of 200 handguns under the counter, and 300 or so long guns on the racks, including black guns. Prices are not out of line.

    3. avatar Zhang says:

      The rural localities truly are the salt of the earth.

    4. avatar Dude says:

      “Down here in rural MS, there is no shortage of firearms at small retail shops”

      Yeah, everyone down there that wants a firearm already had one, so little to no panic buying.

      1. avatar GunnyGene says:

        That’s pretty close to the truth, except I don’t know anyone who only has one gun. They all have on average around a dozen assorted long guns & handguns, and a couple guys with full auto’s and/or ELR rifles. 🙂

        1. avatar Leigh says:

          must be nice to have $15-20,000 guns…damn…

        2. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          “must be nice to have $15-20,000 guns…”

          Easy – Don’t take expensive vacations, drive cars you buy new every 3 years, go out to eat a few times a month, etc.

          Financial discipline…

        3. avatar frank speak says:

          most of you guys were born too late…at least for cheap full-auto..can still remember when you could get one for less than the transfer tax…..you’ll never see those days again….

        4. avatar mrlyle says:

          Find a Shotgun News from early 80s and check out wholesale prices of full autos. A Madsen could be bought for less than $100 bucks

    5. avatar drunkEODguy says:

      In the middle of LA next door. While ammo is short in most calibers I was able to find a couple boxes of practice ammo for marginally inflated prices. Funny that the LGS has some stuff but Academy and the other box stores were absolutely fleeced.

      1. avatar GunnyGene says:

        That’s because the general population has been trained to either shop on-line or buy from the big chains. They simply don’t know any better, and convenience outweighs everything else in there limited view of the world. I’ve even read stories of people getting upset because they can’t buy guns and ammo from Amazon. SMH, double facepalm.

        1. avatar possum says:

          Online to me means information to “those” I’d rather have not knowing what I’m buying. Cash don’t leave much of a paper trail and now that we all can wear mask, facial recognition is out the window

        2. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          “Cash don’t leave much of a paper trail and now that we all can wear mask, facial recognition is out the window…”

          Preach it, beady-eyed one… 🙂

        3. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          +1, possum.

        4. avatar RidgeRunner says:

          Not the real Possum.

      2. avatar Hush says:

        Down at the bottom of La, Terrebonne Parish, 9mm and 223 ammo is nonresistant along with 40cal and many others. Finding an AR15 other than high end models is also impossible. This is a rural area and no where near here is anything available. GunnyGene that is why I ask, had you been shopping. You are very lucky. Makes me want to make a trip to Ms. as I would like to find a Hi Point 995TS or 995TS/FG.

        1. avatar frank speak says:

          How many of you remember OTD?…those were the days!…

    6. avatar Joe says:

      I call BS on this. Every online shop is sold out of everything. If you want some crazy caliber or firearm its available but even you said, 9mm and 5.56/2.23 is gone.

      1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

        I just found 00 Buck and 300 blackout online from a large distributor. Mildly inflated, but not bad.

        1. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          I found 9mm in stock at Bass Pro for a fair price and submitted my order.

          In the time it took me to punch in my card info, the stock *evaporated*.

          I feel blessed to have the few thousand rounds of 9mm I do at 24 cents per, shipped.

          Same for the pile of .22lr that showed up on Monday. 6 cents per shipped was on the high side, but I’m glad I have it.

          If Biden wins (and I’m planning on that happening), the 2012 ammo drought will look like a joke. Our only hope at that point will be Nikki Haley in 2024…

        2. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

          Geoff, Bass Pro has a habit of doing a bait and switch, where it looks like they have something when they don’t. The trick is that once you put that in your cart you are more likely to add something else to your order. Then they cancel the item they never had or tell you it is sold out, and you still buy the other stuff. Their customer service has admitted to this a couple of times over the years.

        3. avatar Ron says:

          @ The Crimson Pirate

          That’s Sportsmansguide.com’s ploy too.

          Back in April I ordered a case of Blazer Brass 9mm FMJ for $189 / 1000.
          Didn’t have to have it but better to have and not need, right?
          May 25 I get an email asking if I wanted to keep it on backorder click the link.
          I did.
          On July 13, I read on a blog about some else who had this situation and they cancelled his order anyway.
          So I logged into my account.
          Yep, cancelled.
          So I pulled up the May 25 email and clicked the link again.
          I got an automated response that said I had already confirmed I wanted to keep the order on back order, that if i now wanted to cancel i needed to call.
          I sent an email to customer service because they won’t take calls …because COVID, ya know.
          I received an email saying sorry I didn’t answer the May 25 email so they cancelled, sorry can’t reinstate the order, blah blah blah.
          I sent them a screen capture of the automated response showing them they were incorrect.
          Got another too bad email.
          I ordered a bulk box of Federal Black Label 9mm JMJ.
          500 rds for $101.
          I received an email July 16 that the order was cancelled because the supplier won’t have it for them.
          Both of these were linked off of Ammoland Daily specials.

          I cancelled my Buyers Club membership and now I totally ignore any offers / emails from Sportsmansguide.

          I have dealt with them since before the internet, but I’m done with the bait and switch bullshit.

      2. avatar Hush says:

        Joe, they have some here: https://www.bulkammo.com/rifle/bulk-.223-ammo
        Ordered some yesterday and they shipped it today.

        1. avatar RidgeRunner says:

          THANK you. Just picked up a buttload of .223 BTHP and FMJ, threw in some 12 ga LE buck for good measure. I feel better now, well into six figures stashed.

      3. avatar Optimistic Engineer says:

        Maybe that is why the Ruger 57 sold well last month! FN 5.7mm might have been available.

    7. avatar Pumbaa says:

      My experience exactly as I live in rural MS near the South Alabama line. I would like a Kel-Tec .32 ACP as I want something so light and small that I will carry it everywhere with CCW. I have not seen one for sale via the internet or in the local stores.

      1. avatar Flitzbirg says:

        It’s my understanding that Keltec does their guns in batches. They may have not done a run of P32s in a while, especially with the .380 in almost the same size as the .32.

  5. avatar Kenneth Phillips says:

    I may be wrong, but I think that if there is 1 confirmed case of ballot box stuffing in the election, there will be civil war.
    Dear God, I hope and pray I am wrong about that, but I don’t see any way I can be be.

    1. avatar possum says:

      Nope, aint nobody going to war over a ballot box.

      1. avatar Joe says:

        There isn’t going to be a civil war for anything. Seeing police go around and enforce red flag laws. No one standing up to the rioters in cities. No one taking control of the CHAD/CHAZ problem.

        We are a bunch of wussies and when/if Biden gets elected and bans AR-15s you are going to see people lined up to turn them in. Let alone fight for freedom.

        1. avatar Don Ward says:

          Don’t see you out in the streets, Rambo.

        2. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          “…and when/if Biden gets elected and bans AR-15s you are going to see people lined up to turn them in.”

          Prepare to be disappointment.

          What happened when NY state did that will happen. People will ‘forget’ they own them. Less than 10 percent will register them. And if doors start to be kicked in, those doing the kicking will have something to worry about…

        3. avatar Montana Actual says:

          People like you, sure. You say “We”, but I’ll bet you put that muzzle on everytime you walk into a store.

        4. avatar FiftycalTX says:

          What “red flag” law? Texas doesn’t have one. And AUSTIN PD just arrested 20 or so rioters. Who is “not standing up to them”? Don’t know where you are, but most of the country won’t put up with the rioters shit. There are only a few thousand, if that many, bought and paid for by Soros and Co.

    2. avatar GunnyGene says:

      You may be right (Billy Joel). But don’t expect such a thing to resemble anything like the 1861-’65 “War of Northern Aggression”. People often try to mistakenly compare what might happen to what did happen.

      1. avatar neiowa says:

        99.9% of Americans (including those here) know diddly squat about history. Think that the US CIVIL WAR is the only civil war ever. Our’s was bloody and over reason still debatable but it was relatively “civil”, polite, and well ordered.

        The next one will NOT be so. Will be more like the a typical civil war. Actual Brother vs Brother, city/city, urban/rural etc.

        1. avatar Grethac says:

          This is right. Most civil wars don’t have opposing sides with clear borders and conventionally raised and organized armies. The American Civil War is an anamoly.

          Expect future civil wars to be like the Balkans or the maybe the Spanish Civil war- loosely allied factions where the threat of your allies turning on you for not being ideologically pure is as great as that from the other side.

    3. avatar Southern Cross says:

      The Democrats will try to win by any means necessary. Watch as close seats suddenly find more ballot papers in the trunk of a car that are mostly for the Democrats.

      Watch as non-citizens are openly allowed to vote for the Democrats. Watch as registered voters who have not re-registered their car in the last decade, have not claimed a welfare check, submitted an IRS return, or have not been seen in public, make registered votes for the Democrats.

      The Democrats are determined to win by looking fair but will resort to using over 150 years of foul methods.

    4. avatar frank speak says:

      we’re already in the middle of a civil war…you just don’t know it yet….

      1. avatar Doc Samson says:

        Indeed…

  6. avatar John A. Smith says:

    “I am loath,” not “I am loathe.”

    1. avatar John78723 says:

      I must say, either would work in this situation.

    2. avatar Jim Warren says:

      Grammar Nazis are funny, especially when they are wrong. Loath and loathe are two separate words, and loath is the incorrect one.

    3. avatar Nero "...diction, not grammar..." Wolfe says:

      Perhaps he is loathed in certain circles, and it was a Freudian slip.

      Regardless, “loath” is the adjective and “loathe” is the verb.

      As in, “I am not loath to admit that I loathe incorrect diction.”

  7. avatar enuf says:

    I get it that people who only recently realized that owning a gun was a good idea are now having a hard of it. But fot the many many more who have long owned guns, running out of ammo now seems just short-sighted on their part.

    I’d say I began stocking up back around 1980, and in small ways. Each week walk thru the store and whatever ammo was on sale, from .22 on up, buy a single EXTRA box of something for one of my guns. Doing this kept me me supplied in years of lay-offs, between jobs, and eventually during the first real panic buying periods.

    Since those panic buying times began during the internet era, it became a whole lot easier. Ignore when something on sale is listed as “Out of stock”. All I care about is does the seller accept back orders?

    With that I have amassed a multi-year supply of all I need, added magazines so numerous I have unopened packages for some (sand color AR Pmags, 33 round Glock mags, Ruger and Remington and other pistol mags, etc etc etc).

    Leverage what works and be patient about back orders.Think longer terms than what you can only find today on a store shelf. Place orders when the prices are right and allow for months if need be.

    My last big buy of .22LR was Federal Automatch at $15 a brick. By the time it arrived 13 months later, no one had it under $100. Last big buy of 9mm 115gr FMJ was Herters Made in USA brass case at $170/1000 rounds and that was after the item had been dropped by the online store listing, but was still sitting in a “Shopping Cart” I’d neglected to act upon weeks earlier.

    Work the internet, use back orders, and accept you will have to wait a while.

    Works for me anyway.

    1. avatar my2cents says:

      Midway USA is accepting back orders for some ammo. The website also does have some self defense ammo at reasonable prices.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      right about now buying those sealed “battle-packs” of .556 and .308 is starting to look really smart…..

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        I really liked the battle packs but they are hard to find now. I have two 400 round battle packs of 5.56 55 grain Portuguese left, great ammo.
        Those guys used to have quite the colonial empire.

      2. avatar Ron says:

        Hirtenberger 7.62X51 360 rds / pack
        the ’84 non-corrosive.

        Ah for the good ol days

  8. avatar Scooter says:

    Around me (suburban area south of St. Louis) it’s definitely hard to find stuff, and a sellers’ market when you do, but my regular haunts are managing a bit and not price gouging. However, I stretched out my circle and found that if you put in some travel time it can pay off. I’m pretty satisfied with my hardware cache and gun food supply, but I located a store I’d never visited that has EVERYTHING in stock. New and used handguns in every caliber, a fair range of rifles INCLUDING ARs, shotguns starting at $200 from name brands, and the only ammo I didn’t see in stock was .30 carbine. Ammo prices were up, gun prices were fair. Parking was tight. Pmags for $10, 2 barrels and a crate full. Boxes of used mags sitting around. This joint is out in the woods in a residential area, but they are stocked for fishing, hunting, and all things pew.

    1. avatar Montana Actual says:

      Same here, but real question is how much longer before you realize they are stocked because they are smart enough to not be where you live? lol.

  9. avatar Biatec says:

    People who complain about price gouging bother me. It’s their property they should be able to sell it for what ever they want. The customer is just upset they are not prepared or are virtue signaling because they want socialist laws to set prices.

    1. avatar Big E says:

      Agreed. “Price gouging” is charging $100 for a bottle of water to someone thirsting to death.
      Bumping prices up because of increased demand is perfectly normal and necessary.

      1. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

        If you believe in free markets there’s actually no such thing as price gouging.

        1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          The claim of gouging is always made by those who didn’t prepare beforehand, and don’t like the natural supply/demand market forces they must reckon with.

      2. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

        Actually raising the price of that bottle of water to $100 prevents all of the people who don’t need it as much from buying it so that it is available for the guy who really is dying of thirst. Raising prices when supply drops or demand increases is the mechanism by which the market allocates limited resources.

        the article even said it, though the author didn’t realize it; all of those who didn’t raise prices were sold out. And they probably sold out to people who didn’t really need the guns as badly and just figured they would add one more while they could. At the $850 table people like us are walking past and shaking our heads but the people who have nothing at all, and really need whatever they can get at this point, can still get something.

    2. avatar Northern Cheddar says:

      Can’t disagree with you. Prices go up in when supply goes down. Economics 101. Smart folks will stay on the sidelines. Panic buyers will pay the high price.

      Dealers that hold their prices are doing so to retain and take care of their long time repeat customers. It’s a relationship. Those that are jacking up prices are after short term profits. But those customers willing to pay the inflated prices are not loyal customers. So it works for all parties.

      This pandemic caused me to do an inventory for the first time. Several “I didn’t know I had that” took place. Have plenty of the basics. But 12 ga ammo for clays is getting hard to find. Just dropped an order for 500 rounds which could last 1-3 months depending on weather and how often we go out. Order might take 2 weeks, might take 4. I still have enough for 1-2 rounds before I run out.

    3. avatar Montana Actual says:

      I get it. I’d rather not buy it then. That said, certain things end up becoming a new normal because of such inflation, and that is a hard pill to swallow, and it should not be acceptable. Inflation is terrible. No matter what way you look at it. People are just too stupid and unprepared so they will pay that price and that’s economics 101 folks.

    4. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

      Totally agree. When the guy supposedly threatened to report the vendor for the “direct violation of your contract with GLOCK” it made me wonder if he misunderstood and thought that Glock enforced strict MSRP, when in fact they only enforce a *minimum* price.

      1. avatar Montana Actual says:

        No they don’t. The retailer can buy them at whatever price Glock sets and the retailer can sell them for whatever price they want. There is no minimum or maximum. Sometimes, selling at a loss is better than not selling at all. Glock doesn’t enforce shit, it’s a suggested price based what Glock sells them for to the retailer that allows the retailer to net a certain percentage on their sale, so their gross does not fall negative.

        1. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

          LOL, I’m just going by what my LGS told me. Apparently they didn’t like undercutting.

      2. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        Eric,

        I directly deal with mfrs, wholesalers, and dealers in my industry. I am “that guy” who sets prices for my employer.

        MSRP pricing is “suggested”.
        MAP pricing is “enforced”.

        1. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

          Minimum Advertised Price… Yes, that’s what I was thinking of.

        2. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          “MSRP pricing is “suggested”.
          MAP pricing is “enforced”.”

          There are ways easily around that.

          Like if the guy behind the counter casually mentions a case of ammo comes with it, ‘off the books’…

        3. avatar LarryinTX says:

          Interesting! I have seen many printed ads claiming “prices so low we can’t advertise them”, I always believed that was just BS! Really is such a thing, huh?

    5. avatar neiowa says:

      Peckerheads can also gouge themselves out of business. Short term stupid can lead directly into long term hurt.

    6. avatar frank speak says:

      doesn’t work for guns…an item’s value is dependent on what people are willing to pay for it..very much like classic cars….

    7. avatar Dude says:

      No one likes greedy companies, but so-called price gouging can be beneficial under certain circumstances. When people are in desperate need of supplies, someone will be there to supply it IF there is an incentive. Charities can only do so much. Take away the incentive (potential profit), and you could actually take away the opportunity for someone in need to get supplies.

  10. avatar Andrew says:

    “What I’m struggling with is, how do we take care of everyone when everything is out of stock?”

    YOU DON’T. The laws of supply and demand dictate here that the people who for whichever reason never cared about gun ownership/ opposed it are screwed now and at the complete mercy of the market. I got an ar15 for around $600 this year because I bought it before the pandemic and not during. The idea that all the fuds and gun grabbers deserve access to affordable guns now that the s*** hit the fan is absurd and wreaks of socialist thinking.

    1. avatar GunnyGene says:

      Precisely. 🙂

    2. avatar Montana Actual says:

      True, but I’d also like to continue doing what I did before without paying triple the amount now – because stupid people. What is needed to counter is someone who cuts the price in half because they still profit off it, and then prices start falling again. The way it’s looking, that won’t happen for a VERY long time, if ever – in regards to ammo/guns. It’s only going to get worse here in the US. No sugar coating it now.

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        Montana,

        This is not because of “stupid people”, but rather a massive increase in buyers. Economics 101. We should all be grateful for the widedpread positive interest in guns and related rights. The more newbie owners we have among POTG, the more people become aware of the illogic of gun control and the Left’s goal to take their guns.

        The massive increase in gun ownership means a long term demand for ammo, which will be an incentive for manufacturers to tool up for stronger production.

        1. avatar Montana Actual says:

          Panic buyers are stupid people. But I agree about production and I believe I mentioned something similar in a previous article the other day, or maybe it was in an in person conversation. Something about local manufacturers starting to make more weapons parts than they usually would – for instance, we are working on making lowers, finally. Which will be great because it’s long overdue. You can buy all the food you need locally now days, if you are not picky and expect bananas in Alaska or something… but for too long weapons manufacturers have not caught onto the value of selling locally. Too many imported firearms and parts. Time to provide our own freedom fighters before we provide the Afghans… just sayin… The only way to stimulate the economy is build/buy locally thus creating jobs and not import/export or stimulus. So lets start with a good that keeps us free.

    3. avatar Southern Cross says:

      Price rises are happening downunder too, but that is usually more to do with exchange rates. Back at Easter I bought a Ruger Precision Rimfire for $860. The same gun is now selling for not much change less than $1100.

      1. avatar Montana Actual says:

        Pretty sure that’s because of tyranny…

        1. avatar Southern Cross says:

          Yeah, whatever. But reality is the $AUD has varied between 0.52 and 0.71 $USD since February. Exchange rates and short supply have caused prices to increase.

    4. avatar frank speak says:

      had offers as high as $1800 for my SP-1…right after obammy got elected…could easily see that again…

  11. avatar Lance Manion says:

    I hate to say it, but I don’t think this is going to be over in two years like after Sandy Hook. My predictions: If Biden wins, we are all looking at California level gun control or even worse. On November 4th there will be a stampede for guns and ammo. People will buy whatever they can get their hands on, pay astronomical prices, and hope for grandfathering, but a “buyback” and/or registration will be likely. If the democrats win all three branches, they will not be stopped this time. Like in California, they will fix the system so that Republicans will never again control any branch of government or be capable of stopping their policies. The buying frenzy will only be abated when the new AWB becomes law and background checks (and limits) on ammo discourage the masses from even trying. The firearms industry will then essentially die, with only the strongest few companies surviving.

    If Trump wins, the radical left will unleash Hell on the streets even worse than we have seen so far. Trump, with the election behind him, will respond by cracking down with Federal might. The clashes will continue to scare the crap out of the country and perpetuate the current drive for guns and ammo.

    I hate to be so pessimistic, but it really seems different this time. I hope I’m wrong.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      Except that there is *always* a form of recourse if the people will avail themselves of it. Here in CA, our petition movement to recall Governor Alfred E. Newsom is running strong.

      1. avatar Anymouse says:

        If you succeed, he’ll probably just be replaced by a virtually identical dim Dem. However, you may take him out of contention for national office, which the rest of us will much appreciate.

      2. avatar JohnnyL says:

        Funny you mention that, last weekend I drove 20 miles to the Best Buy in Rancho Cucamonga and signed the recall. #recallnewsome

        1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          The official site is http://www.recallgavin2020.com

    2. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

      I’m with you. I’m pretty well stocked in loaded ammo, components for reloading, mags and such.
      Last time I bought a dozen mags, they were 9 bucks each. I think that was March. (The receipt is in deep sleep with the mags and ammo.

      I’m probably going to curtail shooting anything but .22

      I think this is going to last several years.

      1. avatar Manse Jolly says:

        “…I’m probably going to curtail shooting anything but .22…”

        I have cut back quite a bit..i just don’t know what’s around the bend in that regard. Doesn’t seem the same as what happens after a mass incident..seems different.

    3. avatar frank speak says:

      Trump’s for preserving the status quo…[I hope]…by any means necessary…Biden is a Trojan horse for the progressive left…with all that implies….

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        Well you know, we had a status quo of bump stocks and pistol brace is legal under the Obama/Biden administration.

        Now under Trump, he has changed the status quo to no bump stocks, and pistol braces are under examination, soon to be on the chopping block.

        I’m not really sure that’s what one would call “preserving the status quo”.

        I think one should base their decisions based upon actual track records, during the Obama/Biden ministration are only gained gun rights.

        Under the Trump administration, I have lost rights and he seems philosophically inclined to continue banning other items.

        But Trump does seem to hate the brown, yellow, black, red people so if that is more congruent with your beliefs, but all means, give him your support!

        But I can tell you, there’s almost 160,000 Americans who won’t be voting for Trump this election…

        1. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

          Now miner, you know the people in cemeteries aren’t supposed to vote.

  12. avatar Klaus Von Schmitto says:

    I used to have to have to travel from my home in St Louis to my home in Arkansas a LOT. I picked up US 67 at Festus and travelled south to my place on the same highway in Ar. Even though it’s been 30 years, I could still make that trip in my sleep. There used to be (and may still be) a shop in Bonne Terre that had anything you wanted. If those kind of God forsaken places wouldn’t have have ammo, we are in serious trouble. Point is, I agree those out of the way places are the go-to to find guns and ammo today. Problem is, for me, there’s no out of the way places in Florida.

    1. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

      “Problem is, for me, there’s no out of the way places in Florida.”

      Belle Glade, Clewiston, etc. They exist.

      Not like Arkansas or Louisiana, but they are there…

      1. avatar Specialist38 says:

        Pahokee is out of the way…..but you dont go to a store to buy guns.

        I saw people from all over south Florida coming to our podunk town in the panhandle to pick up guns during the last run on guns.

        Our problem is we dont have enough gun stores to provide guns for us and all the south Florida Yankees.

        You can probably find some stuff at Kevin’s in Tallhassee. The inflated prices everywhere else are approaching their normal prices. Doctors and lawyers have the best chance of being spoken to there as well.

  13. avatar gus says:

    they are out of *9mm* ammo.

    all those 9mm fanbois that sneer at .40 owners because 9mm ammo was cheaper? that laugh when you remind them that .40 is still available during a panic?

    who’s laughing now? hmm?? 9mm isn’t cheaper now is it? if you can even find any. or a gun to shoot it with.

    sorry, but I have no sympathy. 9mm fanbois can suck it.

    1. avatar Ura Weirdo says:

      I’m confused. Are you inviting young men to perform fellatio in you?

      1. avatar gus says:

        sorry, no. you might try arfcom or glocktalk for that.

    2. avatar Kahlil says:

      In the stores I generally visit in my area .40 is at times hard to come by. I have a nice little cache of ammo but not enough to make me feel comfortable shooting like in normally do. Sitting on everything for now and picking up a box here and there of the calibers I shoot. I have enough 22 to do some plinking and I have a conversion kit for my beretta 96, it ain’t the same as shooting a full power round but it is at least on the same frame.

    3. avatar Montana Actual says:

      I got 10 boxes of Hornady Critical Duty .40 a month ago, good luck finding one box of that shit in 9mm. That said, I own a couple 9’s, but I never cared to stock up on ammo for it. Still, not a .40 snob, or a 9mm snob, or (insert caliber here) snob, because if you are smart, you stock up on what you have as soon as you get it and never go past a certain point. This year I have done nothing but increase that number across the board. I might shoot less, but I’m okay with that, because when I do I make sure to cover fundamentals and real world shit instead of just standing there mag dumping a .40 at an indoor range. No sympathy for any idiot, regardless of what caliber you chose. That said, .40 FTW LOL!

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        I have oodles of stock in both calibers. Plenty to last me for continued training for minimum 5 yrs. .40 S&W is a great cartridge, but I’m streamlining to 9mm.

        1. avatar Montana Actual says:

          Wow man… 5 years. That is some good numbers. I feel like even if I had 100,000 rounds and was bill gates rich, I would never have enough ammo for 5 years lol.

    4. avatar Matt says:

      Make fun of 9mm fans all you want, but imagine how expensive and hard it would be to get .40 S&W now if everyone was still into it.

      1. avatar Montana Actual says:

        uh… that’s kind of the point…

        r/woosh

        1. avatar Matt says:

          MA, I was replying to Gus’ original comment…not your comment.

        2. avatar Montana Actual says:

          r/woosh AGAIN.

          lol. Two timer. Good deal.

    5. avatar Mike H says:

      No one is laughing here, jackass. Here’s a tissue because someone touched you wrong.

      1. avatar gus says:

        of course you’re not laughing!

        …anymore!

        bwahaha lol

  14. avatar Ralph says:

    My store’s shelves are pretty bare. In fact, I have more guns and ammo in my home than I have in the store. And I’m good with that for now.

    1. avatar possum says:

      I’ve got more beer in my house then the local Liquor store does, however I’m liquidating my inventory pretty fast.

      1. avatar FiftycalTX says:

        If you are talking about the FN “SAW” replica, it is SEMI-AUTO and no “stamp” is required. I guess you don’t know that NO new full autos have been available since 1986.

        1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          What does the FN “SAW” have to do with consuming beer, lol??

      2. avatar Miner49er says:

        Liquidating, I love it!

        Does anybody remember back in the ‘70s, when all the operators would talk about ‘liquidating’ a target?

        Good times…

    2. avatar Montana Actual says:

      I go to the smaller stores around town. Every week they have something for me, and that whole “only 1 or two or 3” – dependant on how much they get, apparently doesn’t apply to me, at least at one location. Damn it feels good to be a gangsta. In reality the owner is just really nice and if you are nice to him he’ll take care of you, so I don’t feel special, but I have stood behind someone who was told to buy one box and then immediately asked when reaching the counter if one was all I needed… so the relationship is building lol. I think he just knows I’m not fucken around when I say I’m about to pay that stamp price and buy his SAW.

      1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

        Man, I would love to own a SAW.
        Talk about ammo management!

        1. avatar Montana Actual says:

          $7,800 will take it, that’s what I was told! That number has been haunting me in my dreams for months now. I think I have a toy hauler I don’t really “need”.

        2. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Montana Actual,

          I would be all over that if I could buy a Hughes Amendment compliant SAW for $7,800.

          For people who are less familiar with the intricacies of federal firearm laws, “Hughes Amendment compliance” means that the manufacturer manufactured the machine gun before 1987 and the original purchaser acquired the $200 ATF tax stamp before purchasing it. The Hughes Amendment grandfathers such machine guns which are totally legal to own as long as you jump through the appropriate hoops and pay the $200 ATF tax stamp.

        3. avatar Montana Actual says:

          TBH, I’m pretty sure the tag is not even labeled and he doesn’t expect anyone to actually walk in with cash monies, so the number I got was probably just random. Most people who can buy full auto’s don’t exactly bother with the small stores for something like that. I bet if I did walk in with $7,800 he’d sell it though. One can dream. I even researched how much drums are, already linked. Cheaper than buying bulk lol.

  15. avatar possum says:

    I got a Savage single shot .22 rifle with the rear sight missing and three Winchester Wildcat bullets to go with it, $75 . I found the bullets in the washing machine after washing clothes, but I think they’d be alright? I’m not out to cheat nobody.

    1. avatar GunnyGene says:

      Load ’em up, see if they go bang. Then go get a few boxes of something else.

      1. avatar possum says:

        I’m selling the whole shebang for $75, the bullets was to sweeten the deal. And I figured with the wildcats their reputation for miss fires was about three to one anyways, so you really couldn’t bitch if they didn’t work

    2. avatar Miner49er says:

      When I was a toddler, I used to coon hunt with an old fella who had a savage single shot 22.

      He used that old savage to knock more coons out of a tree then you could count, he never missed. During squirrel season, he kept a pot of squirrel stew on the stove 24/7.

      If that boy was after me, I’d be more concerned then having an entire seal team on my ass.

      1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

        in.

  16. avatar Joe says:

    The NRA table was empty because even a passerby knows Wayne has destroyed the organization from the inside out.

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      WHAT? What are you talking about idiot?

      1. avatar The TTAG Shadow says:

        He’s responding to this paragraph in the article above:

        “The upcoming election is putting some fear in the minds of gun owners that a Biden win could result in an actual shift in gun politics. That’s funny, since the NRA table at the show wasn’t getting much traction at all. People wanted their guns and ammo, not NRA memberships.”

        What’s so idiotic about that?

  17. avatar Leigh says:

    If Biden wins…going to be a HUGE buying spree..and so many boating accidents…
    If Trump wins…puts it off 4 more years
    but eventually the Dems will get the Presidency…and if they also have the House and senate? not going to go well for gun makers OR owners…

    1. avatar Montana Actual says:

      If biden wins… lol funny. I have voted 3rd party my whole life and I know that fool aint winning shit. Even the democrats know it. Nobody WANTS to be his running mate cuz it’s bad publicity lol.

      Joe “I forgot how I got here” Biden… classic. But I do agree the result after Trump will be even more extreme. That said, I strongly believe a democrat will not win an election for a LONG time. 3rd party has a better chance than those idiots now days, finally.

      1. avatar gus says:

        can you say “vote fraud”?

        1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Montana Actual,

          Prior to COVID-19 virus, I agree that Biden didn’t have any chance at all of winning the election this year. Thanks to the virus and several states in response sending out unverified mail-in ballots to basically everyone (including thousands/millions of people — both dead and alive — who are not eligible to vote), I believe Democrats have a real shot at generating 10s of thousands of additional votes that are fraudulent in several/most states.

          Given that there are a few states (which more-or-less decided the election) where Trump only received a few thousand more votes than Hillary, it would be easy for Democrats to generate a few thousand fraudulent additional votes in those states and literally steal the election.

          Unlike the Battle of Athens, Tennessee where local townsfolk fought the local police to gain possession of the literal ballot box to ensure accurate ballot counts in the local election, there will be no practical way to ensure an accurate ballot count of millions of unverified (and hence fraudulent) ballots at the state level sent through the U.S. mail to various sorting/counting centers.

        2. avatar Montana Actual says:

          Right now, people are simply watching Biden because he is unpredictable. At least when Trump starts a sentance, you know where he is going… for example:

          Trump: Our wall…. yadda yadda yadda greatest wall ever…
          vs.
          Biden: Humpty dumpty didn’t sit on this wall, and yea, welcome to cedar rapids, that’s a joke.

          The man is being questioned daily about his cognitive dissonance. Democrats are in shock that he has made it this far, and tons are even openly admitting they’d rather vote for Trump than Biden. Even famous people. Talk show hosts, etc etc… The fact is, majority of these people you see “protesting” do not vote. At all. Probably never will. The system is out to get them, remember? Poverty and oppression only exist racially to them. So unless there is another Obama, or a black woman, they could care less and would just rather keep fucking the flow of traffic up. Even their blue cities are standing in front of blue politicians homes now. They are so confused, it’s highly amusing. They are literally eating each other. Could not ask for a better setup, even if you don’t support trump but lean right at all – like supporting the second amendment above all else. They wouldn’t even know where to hide once forced holes cause soy leaks in them.

        3. avatar Miner49er says:

          “several states in response sending out unverified mail-in ballots to basically everyone“

          I for one, would really be interested in what evidence you have to substantiate your interesting assertion.

      2. avatar frank speak says:

        …well, the polls…[for whatever they’re worth]…say different…right now Biden is winning by default…but will it last?…what if he chooses not to debate?…or people actually like his VP pick?….lots of possibilities…

        1. avatar Montana Actual says:

          Hillary was supposed to win too.

        2. avatar LarryinTX says:

          Shoot, in 2016 Trump had absolutely ZERO chance at the time the polls closed after the election was OVER. And somebody is still listening to polls? How stupid can you be?

    2. avatar RidgeRunner says:

      “huge buying spree”…what are they gonna buy?

  18. avatar UncleK says:

    I only shoot 6 months out of the year.
    I’m skipping this year and just sitting on my half hoard.
    650 of #1 buck
    2K of 5.56
    500 of 9mm.
    Ammo prices are insane.
    I know I’m low.
    Thats why I’m not buying or shootin.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      UncleK,

      Ammo prices are insane.

      I snooped around a couple days ago. It looks like the price of bulk 9mm Luger and .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO have either doubled or tripled in price compared to year-end 2019.

    2. avatar Montana Actual says:

      Ammo prices are not dropping, ever again. Watch a video from 2011 on how much you could buy 1,000 rounds for. Ammo prices will only continue to increase and so will the scarcity. Better get in the mind set of spending more because freedom is going to cost a lot more than money.

      1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

        Montana Actual,

        I wasn’t tracking bulk .223 Remington/5.56 x 45mm NATO nor 9mm Luger ammunition prices before 2012 (Sandy Hook school attack). How much was a 1000 rounds of either in 2011?

        I know that prices jumped significantly after the Sandy Hook attack and then slowly fell back down to the minimum prices that I saw just before the COVID-19 insanity. The best prices I was seeing on bulk .223 Remington was around $240 per 1000 (I believe) and for 9mm Luger around $170 per 1000.

        Oh, and .22 LR 500 packs were finally down to around $18 in December, 2019. How does that compare to prices in 2011?

        1. avatar Montana Actual says:

          I watched a video of someone talking about 1,000 rounds of 5.56 being $180 in 2011. I can’t say for sure, seems REALLY low, but what I do know is from 1999 to 2011 ammo increased over 230%, and you can imagine the difference now. I just did a bunch of random google searches after that video.

        2. avatar xtphreak says:

          a sealed .30 cal ammo can of Federal Lake City XM193 on strippers in cardboards was selling at PSA for $119 w/ free shipping in 2010

  19. avatar uncommon_sense says:

    If you are lazy or only want a specific brand/type of firearm or ammunition, you are probably out of luck at this point. If you are not lazy and willing to be a bit flexible, product is available out there: some of it at reasonable prices and some of it at significantly inflated prices.

    The key is to consider an alternate brand or type of firearm or ammunition or an alternate location/source.

    Did you want to buy your first handgun in the ever popular 9mm Luger caliber? Good luck with that — especially finding ammunition. So, consider alternate handgun calibers such as .380 ACP, .38 Special, and .40 S&W. Chances are that you can find something in those other calibers.

    Did you want to buy your first shotgun in the ever popular 12 gauge chambering? Look at 20 gauge or 16 gauge instead. For example: my local “everything” store appears to be pretty much sold out of 12 gauge slugs and yet has about 50 boxes of 20 gauge Remington Slugger 5/8 ounce slugs at something like $4 for a box of 5 which is the normal price.

    And how about rifles — is .223 Remington, .308 Winchester, and .30-06 Springfield unavailable (in both rifles and ammunition)? Consider less popular calibers such as .300 AAC Blackout, 6.5mm Grendel, .243 Winchester, .25-06 Remington, 6.5mm Creedmoor, and .270 Winchester as alternatives.

    As other commenters said, consider driving to out-of-the-way locations. Maybe a two hour drive to the hinterlands will take you to a rural gun store with a passable selection of firearms and ammunition at not-ridiculous prices.

    Remember: if self-defense is your primary concern, any firearm is better than no firearm. While a full-size polymer semi-auto pistol in 9mm Luger may be the ideal home-defense handgun, a revolver with 6-inch barrel chambered in .44 Magnum and loaded with .44 Special cartridges is a fine secondary choice. Similarly, while an AR-15 with 30 round magazines may be the ideal home-defense rifle, a bolt-action rifle chambered in .243 Winchester will certainly discourage many bad actors as well.

    The point being, do not pigeon-hole yourself. Be creative.

    1. avatar gus says:

      yeah, pretty much “any gun” is good for something. there are still guns & ammo to be had if you need “a” gun.

    2. avatar LazrBeam says:

      Don’t overlook milsurp, either. Classic Firearms has Tokarev M57’s chambering 7.62×25 and SGAmmo has defensive ammo (Prvi Partizan JHP) in that round. J&G Sales has CZ82’s which fire 9mm Mak and most LGS’s carry that round and Wolf, and even Hornady, loads it in JHP. AIM Surplus has CZ50’s and 70’s and Zastava M70’s and, yeah, they’re .32 ACP but order some Xtreme Defender direct from Underwood and you’ve got a formidable piece. Do some searching, it is out there.

      1. avatar gus says:

        the problem is, 9 out of 10 first-time gun buyers don’t know to do that. they are clueless. if it’s not already in a gun store waiting for them to buy it, they don’t know what to do.

        1. avatar LazrBeam says:

          Point taken, Gus. But, maybe, if they have read this, they now are aware of these options.

  20. avatar Derp says:

    Sgammo still has cases of 7.62×39, prices are rising though as buying picks up.

  21. avatar Montana Actual says:

    Went to pick up a new lower the other day, never had an issue. Recently moved, well, a year ago, and never changed my CCW – like I should have for $5, so I said screw it and bought a conservation license with my updated info so they could use it… I mean, I could just be making it all up anyways, so not sure why they gave a fuck, but 15 min into the NICS check it delayed it. A part I already paid for. I have a decent arsenal and this is the first time I have ever been delayed. Still no word. Real fucken salty, and probably never buy another registered gun, ever. I already made the jump to building them, but now any parts I get will just be private sale. Fuck you ATF, and every bitch ass agency like you. You fed bois might get a 1% amount of my heart when you start clapping ANTIFA members, but until then, it’s fuck you.

    1. avatar xtphreak says:

      really wish you wouldn’t sugar coat things and just come right out with how you really feel

  22. avatar former water walker says:

    Ehhh…I’m doing OK. Can’t see until eye surgery & glasses. So I’m not shooting. I picked up some ammo for above normal but not outrageous prices. 223& 556. XTac,Frontier Spire point and another. Only for defense. I got lots of 223 cheap. Same for 9mm. I may shop tomorrow too. Not overpaying for a gat! My good friend has a S&W 3913 that’s mint. The “male version” of a Ladysmith. LOL. He hates it. We’ll see!

    1. avatar Miner49er says:

      The third generation Smith nines are actually very nice. I have my duty 6906 that I have shot consistently since 1989 with no issues. I took it to Wayne Novak early on for his function and reliability package, great investment.

  23. avatar Andrew lias says:

    I was looking at 243 online it starts out at .70 a round for new now. It was 40 at the start of the year.

    dayum.

  24. avatar Gaga says:

    “Rod me?”

  25. avatar Lenard Ringo says:

    Being a prepper means never having to panic. I had masks long before covid-19. Had firearms and lots of ammo long before defunded police and endless riots.

    1. avatar SoCalJack says:

      I would venture to say most of us POTG have and continute to prepare, ourselves and community, for what we consider our most likely contingencies, whether man-made (cyber attack, grid down, economic collapses, supply shortages, virus) or natural disasters (I.e. earthquake, flooding, drought), and any combo of these one causing another, cascading. If you’re deficient in something (I.e. comms, power generation, fire extinguishers, sanitation, med kits, 1st aid training, other emergency and survival skills) now’s the time to procure them while there’s supply.

    2. avatar Hugh Glass says:

      prepper:
      So you get to come on here and feel smug, hope it’s worth it. Big win! Congratulations!

  26. avatar strych9 says:

    The change in the market that I find interesting is in body armor. Previous events haven’t really changed the way people shop body armor but this one did.

    And in interesting ways. All those plates rated for .308 but that won’t stop M855 or 7.62 BZ are still available but something like an SRT… good luck with that. The only commonly available plates I see that will stop both, higher end UHMWPE plates, are still mostly around $800 per plate, suggesting there hasn’t been a massive uptick in demand for Lvl IV UHMWPE, probably due to it’s price point and that most people don’t rate falling off a boat as a high level threat.

    Apparently people are, generally, worried about carbine rounds. Which, contrary to popular gun lore on the net, actually makes a lot of sense. It also says something about the current zeitgeist. I’d be hesitant to read really deeply into that, but it’s still there.

    1. avatar Biff says:

      Check out the Battlesteel Level 3+ plates at Botach. I bought 2 of the 11×14” plates for $169 each. I think they weigh around 6.5 lbs each and will stop M193 and M855. You just have to be patient and not expect them to show up right away.

      Single curve plates kinda suck to wear, but I got them for emergency use only. They are much lighter than AR500 and you don’t have to worry about spalling.

      They also have Level 3a soft armor. The 11×14” were $57 each. When I ordered they were listed as in stock but still took almost 3 weeks to ship. They were also about a year old. Still a bargain though.

      1. avatar strych9 says:

        This was a note on the market.

        It’s simply me saying that a lot of people have done something that goes way beyond a *normal* run on guns and ammo.

        1. avatar SoCalJack says:

          Self protection and self-reliance seems to be on the rise. Is it a loss in gov (fed, state, local) trust? The media telling us how to worry after certain types of shootings?

      2. avatar Hugh Glass says:

        I go the Devil’s Rejects route:

    2. avatar Montana Actual says:

      The funny thing is: Plates won’t protect you. They might help, but if you are a non trained larper, you are still gonna get fucked up. There is one rule in a gunfight: Don’t get shot. You can have level 4 plates and a cool carrier that is too small – and still take a round under your armpit and out your neck. That said, I got two sets of plates issued in the military, and I kept one getting out. Absolutley no record of it either, among other things. And I was not the only one. That includes ESAPI and ESBI, with sapi’s. Some people I knew got to keep a shit ton of stuff. Kevlars even… or they sold them to the pawn shops outside post like idiots. My IOTV might be an oldie, but it’s a goodie. And yea.. it’s fucken ACU… LOL! Still, I’d drop it in a heartbeat if I had to in exchange for mobility. Sometimes bugging out or being quicker will keep you alive, and sometimes, you just gotta fight your way out. Most larping idiots don’t know shit for tactics and when they start hearing the difference between random shots fired and direct contact, they’d shit bricks, tuck tail and run.

      1. avatar strych9 says:

        I don’t much care how or or how well people employ it.

        I just find it worthy of note that where you used to be able to go and pick up something like, say, a Hesco L210 for $150/plate with free shipping now they’re mostly backordered 8-10 (or more) weeks and some places are now asking $300+/plate. I’ve seen them priced at $399, a 266% markup and apparently people are coughing that up. Sandy Hook and Obama didn’t cause runs on armor like this.

        That’s interesting to me insofar as it speaks to how people are thinking (whether or not that’s logical or not matters little IMHO). They’re thinking they want body armor at a rate that’s significantly outstripped supply. They’re thinking they need to be able to stop M855 or BZ. They’re not so worried about, say .30-06 or .308.

        This suggests to me that there’s a huge uptick in the number of people who, on some level, expect incoming rounds above pistol caliber but below “battle rifle caliber”. It’s also interesting that people seem unwilling to drop the extra coin for UHMWPE, which is arguably a significantly better deal. This suggests that either they’re shopping “value” in ceramics or they don’t understand the benefits of UHMWPE.

        1. avatar Dave G. says:

          For those of us who didn’t know (including yours truly) UHMWPE stands for CoCrMo)-Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene according to Acronym Attic.

          From another Internet source: CoCrMo alloys are especially used where high stiffness or a highly polished and extremely wear-resistant material is required. CoCrMo alloys are the materials of choice for applications such as knee implants, metal-to-metal hip joints and dental prosthetics.

          HOWEVER not being familiar with armor, I still do not get the whole picture. Any help would be appreciated.

        2. avatar Dave G. says:

          Oops! I should have put quotation marks around that CoCrMo paragraph, because it’s a cut-and-paste and not mine. Sorry about that!

      2. avatar SoCalJack says:

        True. One has to assume the BG has the same goal as you…keep shooting until they are dead.

  27. avatar Juan Pablo says:

    Buddy if mine is a small FFL dealer. Asked him if he could get me a Glock 31. He quoted me a more than fair price, asked if I was in a hurry for it.
    “Why?”
    “Because the current wait is 8-22 weeks.”

  28. This is such a great resource that you are providing and you give it away for free.

  29. avatar Grim Reaper says:

    Montana Actual says: August 2, 2020 at 17:28

    Poverty and oppression only exist racially to them. So unless there is another Obama, or a black woman, they could care less and would just rather keep fucking the flow of traffic up.

    ++ __ See > thing is you and most people don’t at all, don’t get it, and don’t know history. Cuz if you did you would know there were times, in the distant past, when the ‘electors’, or representives at the convention representing those that actually voted in the primaries, ended up choosing the candidate. By plan, as it was a plan all along clearly, this time … Biden is likely to ‘step aside’ due to his rapidly deteriorating mental condition and the delegates/electors will then be able to choose a candidate that never could have won, or have been the candidate for the Dems, through the primary process. This is the smoke filled room, back room, under the table, around the corner, on the down low … way.

    So then, your ‘unless there is another Obama, or a black woman’ statement is actually exactly correct and on point because that’s exactly what you’re going to get. Obama is in fact the power broker behind the scenes, along with a host of other deep state types, radical community organizer Alinsky disciples and Soros aligned ‘globalist’ thinking operatives.

    And the key to it all is the BLACK/BLM part of it. Had the black man so now comes the black woman – in through the side door, and straight away there will be the black woman POTUS and her black woman VP as well, that may well be Michelle Obama. Oh yeah, like it can’t happen and wasn’t planned all along. But they’ll just be puppets and figure heads.

    Finding this article shouldn’t be that difficult.

    politics/2020/08/02/dan-bongino-warns-bidens-cognitive-decline-is-rapidly-worsening/

    Plus if the Dems don’t win, or else can’t steal the election using the mail in voting scam, mayhem will rein, anyway, for a very long time after the election. But it seems like everything has fallen into line perfectly for the Dems this time around. They just used Biden and he always was nothing more than Obama’s lap dog and fool. Get it? Understand? You will soon. It never was what it appeared to be with Biden. A study of what Obama said in his eulogy of John Lewis reveals even more. The John Lewis ‘voting rights act’ and all that… LMAO

    Montana Actual says: August 2, 2020

    If biden wins… lol funny. I have voted 3rd party my whole life and I know that fool aint winning shit

    ++ __If biden wins … Yeah but thing is it won’t be Biden… Just proves that even a damn fool blind squirrel like you finds a nut every so often.

    1. avatar Miner49er says:

      “This is the smoke filled room, back room, under the table, around the corner, on the down low … way.”

      Yes, now that the Republican Party has publicly announced that their convention will be private many patriotic Americans have valid concerns about the integrity of the nomination process.

      But you know, the wealthy conservatives like Murdoch, Adelson and Ross want control of the nomination so they can’t allow a public process.

      Ain’t ‘transparency’ grand!

      1. avatar LarryinTX says:

        You’re kidding, right? Even you cannot be so stupid as to think someone other than Trump is going to be nominated, so Trump must cheat somehow at the convention so as to win the nomination? That is a RussiaRussiaRussia conspiracy theory for the ages, it’s so stupid!

  30. avatar Grim Reaper says:

    Lance Manion says: August 2, 2020 at 15:24

    If Biden wins, we are all looking at California level gun control or even worse. I hope I’m wrong.

    ++ __ There are several, not Biden, that can win, and the ~chosen one, not Trump, probably will win. Then it’s to be as you suggest, but worse, much worse. Best way to get clued in is to study the game plan and the ideas of the LEFT.

    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2019/10/07/475538/bullet-control/

    The new AWB is a small fraction of their plans. You’re not wrong but were most likely too optimistic.

  31. avatar jakee308 says:

    People who think they’re being honorable or straight by not selling scarce commodities at the price they are worth are fooling themselves. By keeping the price artificially low, they will actually HURT new stock from being produced.

    Law of supply and demand as demand goes up so does price because availability goes down. If the price is forced to stay stable then a manufacturer or wholesaler has no incentive to produce more in the face of THEIR shortages. Yeah we forget that the suppliers are facing shortages too. Copper, lead, Stainless steel, specialty steel in rods for barrels and other steels for the other parts. Primers, powder, brass. Heck just packing materials. And then there’s shipping when entering some areas is dangerous and truckers won’t go.

    All that requires that a higher price be paid to make it worth the while of the producer to go and make or get the materials. Selling their product short means they won’t be selling you any if you won’t pay higher and you can’t pay higher if you’re not selling higher.

    The idea that selling what something is worth during an emergency is some sort of evil thing is something that’s promoted by communists/socialists who have no clue on how an economy works let alone a capitalist one.

    Save your misplaced high minded ideals for when you become a milionaire and can afford it.

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Pretty good, Jakee. Pretty damn good. Save the controlled prices for monopolies, that’s the tradeoff.

  32. avatar LastOfTheOldOnes says:

    Miner49 said:

    “But Trump does seem to hate the brown, yellow, black, red people so if that is more congruent with your beliefs, but all means, give him your support!

    But I can tell you, there’s almost 160,000 Americans who won’t be voting for Trump this election…”

    Trump hates all those colors??? I, personally, have never seen a yellow, red or black, or white person. I have, however see various shades of brown/tan, and also slightly pink…

    160,000 will not be voting for Trump ??? WOW, Trump will win with 99.9% of the vote…..

  33. avatar SpeedBump says:

    Does anyone really think 1000 rounds of 9mm won’t be enough?

    When and if chaos actually breaks out in the streets and it involves massive amounts of shooting, one won’t survive long enough to get past 200 rounds before you are taken out.

    I will say again as I’ve always said – a simple .22 rifle will be all you need!

    This and at least 5000 rounds will serve you nicely for a long time, as well as put meat on your table.

    Stop answering the call of fear. Use your heads!

    Believe me, after the shooting starts there will be plenty of AR and AK47 rifles to be found on the dead bodies of those who once owned them. Ammo too.

    Food, water, medical provisions are a whole other matter. Better focus more on those items than 100,00 rounds of ammo

    Inside 100 yards, a .22 rifle shot to the head is quite easy. It’s quiet, predictable, and a reliable means of engaging the communist enemy, while living to see another day. Stop drinking the Hollywood Kool-Aid please. You are doing a disservice to your intelligence,,,

  34. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

    Well I used up a fair quantity of 9mm breaking in my brother in law and his new Hellcat last weekend. I still have a bunch by most people’s standards, though not a Haz or Hank amount. If worse comes to worse I will put the .40 barrel back in the Glock until that runs out, then I’ll put in the .357 Sig barrel. But I am still a long way from even switching back to .40.

    In central PA big box stores only have .40 and hunting rifle ammo, and shotgun shells. I do occasionally see some high priced 5.56 or 7.62×39. Gun shops will usually have a smattering of handgun ammo and limit of how much you can buy. 2 boxes is typical.

    If you are looking to buy a gun you can find something at almost anyplace I have stopped at, but if you are looking for something specific your chances are slim. Or you may have to call or drive around and look for it. Somebody out there has a Glock 19, or a Sig 365, or whatever it is you are looking for, but maybe not the first somebody you try.

    Reloading equipment is available. Like guns, the selection is limited and you may not get your choice. Components are gone locally. There ain’t none at any place. Even online I can order cast lead bullets, but jacketed are out of stock and no back order at most places.

    When things settle down I’ll be looking to add bullet casting to my repertoire. Apartment living is what prevented me from getting into it before but I have some ideas for ways I can do it outdoors without drawing unwanted attention.

    As others have said when prices go back down buy stuff on sale, or used and set some of it aside. Ammo, magazines, parts, whatever. Most of my Glock mags are used LEO mags, some marked and some not, that I bought for $9.99 each. Rusty AK mags used to go for $4.50. If you can operate a bottle of soda and a can of spray paint they aren’t rusty for long. Or when a certain company Effed up and hired Lon Horiuchi and no one wanted to buy their AR mags. A bunch of gun dealers were left holding them and sold them off for $5 each. If you are buying ammo for a range trip, buy double and set half aside.

    I drive a lot for work and try to stop in local gun shops in every community I pull a shift in. Somebody always has something somewhere. You never know what goodies you will find.

  35. avatar Jeff O. says:

    I went to a local gun show recently and there were several decent deals on guns, except for one local pawn dealer that looked like they hadn’t sold a thing, with a table overflowing with over priced stuff.

    I guess it can partially be based on location in the county as well, lots of guns owned ’round these parts.

    Box box stores seem to be low on inventory, but local chains have okay gun inventory. No one has much ammo though.

  36. avatar Larry says:

    In the story and all the comments I have read no one is bring up the fact that once those stimulus checks stop and the jobs do not come back our economy is going to flat out tank and tank hard. Sure ammo and guns are being bought up like crazy but that CAN’T continue at this pace, especially when so many people are going to not be able to afford food!

    I suspect that after the election, either way, there is going to a massive supply of at least ammo brought on by the ammo companies working 3 shifts and the sudden loss of INCOME for so many people in this country that gun/ammo buying is going to drop like a rock.

    1. avatar Dave G. says:

      Larry: Loss of income? Sure. and, how about market saturation. Not everyone wants, needs, and can store multi-year supplies of shootin’ stuff. So suppliers could wind up over producing and, thereby, driving prices down. Just a thought.

  37. avatar Nww says:

    At the gun store I go to, .223, .300 blackout, and 9mm is gone. .45, 10mm and .40 come and go. There’s plenty of .308, 7.62×39, 6.5 grendel, and 6.5 creedmore.

  38. avatar Zombie Land USA says:

    IF u only have 6.5 billion rounds ur slacking! There are over 9 billion zombies!

  39. avatar Arthur says:

    For years I’ve been involved in many online debates about which is the best caliber to stock for a SHTF weapon. Most everyone else argued that 5.56 and 9 mm were best. Their reasoning was “because that’s what current police and military use…so there’s lots of it floating around.”

    I wish I could track down all of those people and say “I TOLD YOU SO!”

    1. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

      Well, I think the point there is that if we are reduced to battle field pickups that’s what we will likely find.

      Also military and police have a supply chain that partisans could potentially draw from that will produce those calibers.

      Also manufacturers will most likely make most of what is aselling out. They will not devote resources to making stuff that sits on shelves. So all the .40 that is there now may be all there is for longer than 9mm is out of stock.

      1. avatar Arthur says:

        The late Bill Jordan was once asked what his weapon/caliber of choice would be for an end of the world scenario. He allegedly answered that all he would want is a S&W Model 19 revolver and a few boxes of cartridges. When challenged about his answer, he reasoned that if a person can shoot well, they can use that little revolver to get any kind of rifle, ammo and supplies they want. If it comes down to battlefield pick ups, then presumably I could find a rifle to fit all the 5.56 laying around. Therefore, I’ll continue stocking my SHTF calibers of choice the .30-30, .357 magnum, .45-70, .30-06 and 12 gauge. Those are all old former military and/or hunting cartridges which, with the exception of the 80+ year old .357, have been around over 100 years. There is plenty of it to be found in households and farms across the country.

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