What’s Going On With .350 Legend?

Josh Wayner for TTAG

I’ve been asked a lot about the new .350 Legend cartridge, the round that’s set to take on the .450 Bushmaster in the straight-wall legal midwest woods. The .350 Legend has a number of great advantages, and it’s gotten a very positive reception. But there are questions about the cartridge that need to be looked at despite the positive forecast.

To recount the full story of the .350 Legend and what exactly it does would take too long for the purposes of this article. Instead, here’s a brief summary . . .

States like Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and others in the Midwest have laws allowing the use of straight-walled rifle cases in shotgun-only deer areas. These areas are vast and the straight-walled cases quickly overtook traditional options. The .450 Bushmaster has become the dominant cartridge in many of these areas and could easily be called the Midwest’s favorite deer round.

The .450 Bushmaster is a large, powerful round that isn’t cheap. There’s really no way to make it cost-effective in volume due to the fact that there is just so much raw material that goes into each round.

Dan Z for TTAG

Winchester saw this and developed a new round offering a low recoil, low cost, straight-walled case that fit into the laws and guns of the area dominated by .450 BM. The result was the .350 Legend.

The benefits of .350 Legend are that it is indeed inexpensive and produces lower recoil. That means smaller or young hunters will be offered the same benefits from modern rifles as hunters shooting the more powerful .450 BM.

The effective range of .350 Legend is somewhat shorter than .450 Bushmaster, but for all intents and purposes they are both at their best at around 100 yards or closer.

Diameter Discrepancies

The first major issue with the .350 Legend is that it has a fairly wild set of specs and some confusing potential legal ramifications. I talked to two of the leading authorities in their respective fields about the round, Hornady and Precision Rifle Company.

Josh Wayner for TTAG

PRC was the first company to receive and use a specially made Manson reamer in .350 Legend. This precision reamer was in their hands before anyone else in the industry and they were able to begin mapping the potential of the cartridge.

As a result of this time and effort with the .350 Manson reamer, they developed a great deal of knowledge about the round before it hit the market earlier this year. Their .350 rifle shoots 1/2 MOA all day long. The masters at PRC spent an afternoon with me detailing the problems they see with the .350 Legend as it exists right now.

The PRC rifles use a .355 bore, which means 9mm bullets. Why not .357 or .358, which are more common to existing .35 caliber rifle rounds?

Not even Hornady knows the answer to that. I spoke to Hornady’s Neal Emery and this is what he had to say:

I’m sure they have their reasons, but it’s baffling as to why they didn’t spec the Legend with .357 or .358 caliber bullets with so many more options that would work better at those velocities.

Hornady decided to go with a .355 bullet for their new American Whitetail 170gr Interlock. Winchester lists .357 as their diameter. So what’s right here?

Josh Wayner for TTAG

SAAMI says that the Legend can have bullets ranging from .354 to .357. But PRC tells me .357 bullets won’t chamber in the match-accurate X-Caliber .355 barrels. It therefore has a maximum bullet diameter of .356 and not the more common .357. Bullets for the .358 Winchester won’t work, which is disappointing considering that there is a well-established market for these bullets.

We reached out to Winchester to ask about these potential problems. A Winchester representative had this to say about the .350 Legend:

In regards to 350 Legend bullets, please refer to the attached SAAMI drawing (PDF) attached SAAMI drawing. Common among all modern centerfire projectiles, 350 Legend’s SAAMI bullet diameter includes a tolerance to allow for slight variations in manufacturing. The 350 Legend SAAMI bullet diameter is specified at .357”-.003”. Similar bullet tolerances also exist for 357 Magnum and 357 Maximum.

The 350 Legend also uses the same .346” bore and .355” groove dimensions as 357 Mag and 357 Max. Therefore, bullets exit the muzzle at approximately .355” when fired from any of those three cartridges.

Additionally, some reloaders have asked if they can reload 350 Legend using various component bullets that are already on the market. Reloaders could probably find existing bullets that will work, but they will not be ideal for the 350 Legend cartridge. Many of the existing bullets on the market were designed for terminal expansion at lower velocities, and therefore will not perform properly on game animals at the higher velocities of 350 Legend. Additionally, many existing bullets lack the correct ogive to be seated at a length that will chamber reliably in the 350 Legend. A similar example exists with 30 caliber rifle bullets; there is not a single 30 Caliber bullet that can be loaded perfectly across all 30 caliber cartridges. We don’t use the same bullets for 30-30 Win and .308 Win and 7.62x39mm. When Winchester designed 350 Legend, we engineered all of the bullets from scratch to be optimized for the new cartridge. We are also beginning to deliver those bullets as components.

There are a few problems with this answer. The first being that the .350 Legend is a rifle cartridge and the issue of diameter and chamber pressure. The .350 Legend is not a pistol cartridge, despite being quite similar to one in a number of ways.

A .003″ variation is not small. As far as the .30 caliber comparison, there is a wide range of .30 caliber rifles, and European .30’s are larger than American .30’s. A .312 bullet won’t even fit in the case mouth of a .308 cartridge or bore without significant pressure increase that could result in damage to the gun. The 7.62×39 uses a bullet diameter of .311, which can also be used in .303 British and 7.62x54R, but not in any .30-06, .308 Win, or 300 BLK.

As far as the ‘exiting bullets’, that must refer to .357 handgun bullets, which would in fact be designed for velocities slower than the .350 Legend can generate. .358 bullets would certainly be suitable for these velocities, as they are made for full-power rifle rounds.

In my opinion, the .350 Legend is robbed by limiting reloaders with proprietary bullets. The .450 Bushmaster can use any .452 bullet out there, rounded, flat point, cast lead, or tipped with no issues.

I’ve written a number of articles on that cartridge and know just how it works with anything from swaged down .458″ .45-70 bullets in the 400 grain range to cheap plated lead subsonics for range fun. The .355″ rifle bullet is a relatively rare thing and I don’t know that it will ever gain enough popularity to become one in any serious way.

The .358 option would have been a huge benefit for everyone and I can’t think of a reason it wasn’t made to work except to corner a new market.

Bullets I pulled from Winchester FMJ white box ammo varied greatly in diameter. I had bullets ranging from .349 to .353, but nothing as high as .355. This is troubling for a variety of reasons and not just as far as accuracy is concerned. There is a basis for potential legal concern.

Josh Wayner for TTAG

Ohio lists a minimum caliber of .357 for their straight walled cases, but the .350 Legend is not necessarily a .357. A case could be made that the .350 is not legal as a result.

Would Hornady loads be illegal at .355 and Winchester legal at .357? I’m no legal expert, but I know that there is enough difference between the .38 SPL and .357 Mag in Michigan to make one legal and the other not. The .38 SPL case is only .005 short for deer. In a game where a we measure to the third decimal, I worry that the .350 Legend should have gone to .358 to ensure it is never called into question.

Guns and Gear

There are not many options out there yet for the .350 Legend as I write this. There’s a Ruger American Rifle sitting in my safe right now and it’s one of the first factory options made for the caliber. There are a few other rifles available, but many are wanting in quality unless you go the custom route and talk to PRC.

Josh Wayner for TTAG

Leupold has jumped on the train and makes a scope specific to the .350 Legend. This is great glass and it has a BDC rated for the cartridge. Look forward to a review of this scope and a full review of the Ruger American Rifle in .350 Legend as we get closer to summer ending and the start of hunting season.

As I type this article, there are five companies I know of that are either working on or in the process of introducing rifles chambered in the .350. There are also several that are making or preparing to make ammo for it. These are both large and small companies, so there will be plentiful variety.

Josh Wayner for TTAG

I have heard of a number of reliability issues already coming to surface with the .350, especially in an AR rifle. The case geometry requires a new magazine, despite the fact that it uses a regular .223 bolt. PMAGs won’t work and I have tested them to prove it.

Should You Invest?

I see no reason why a person would be at a disadvantage with a .350 Legend rifle in .450 Bushmaster territory. Cost and recoil are two significant factors, and since the two rounds have the same general effective range, a new hunter or someone smaller in stature would do well to take a serious look at it.

Just as with the .450, there will be some bugs to work out before the round becomes totally viable. I haven’t seen a great amount of press covering it yet and, aside from my own articles, there doesn’t seem to be a great amount of enthusiasm for the idea so far.

I think that the greatest fault of this cartridge was the choice to go with a .355-357 bullet instead of a .358, but that’s just me. Time will tell if this minor thing becomes an actual Achilles’ Heel.

 

comments

  1. avatar Texheim says:

    I thought about going 350 legend for my next build but went 458 Socom instead.

  2. avatar Mr Furious says:

    Anything short of a 50 BMG is legal in Indiana now. This round is the nichiest of all the niche cartridges.

    1. avatar Someone says:

      Is everything up to a 50 BMG also legal to hunt deer with in Indiana?

  3. I have one of the first/early KAK 18″ barrels. it seems to measure 357 as the Spec says.
    I also have a reamer made to spec [ JGS ] and it is as you described the same as the 357/357 MAX. BUT, if you pull a bullet on the 147gr FMJ’s , they do measure .354XX. The std SAMI reamer will not allow 358 bullets to chamber easily, but my 180 gr FP TournamentMasters [ 357] do. Haven’t had time to load and shoot them yet but expect great in a bolt gun, not sure of the feeding in my AR as yet. The 350 Reamer/358 [ from Pacific as I recall ] is as expected just enough bigger in the throat to allow the 358 bullets to chamber easily. JES has rebored a few bolt guns so far, 1 with the Shooter provided 358 reamer, the others with SAMI 357 reamer on a cut riffled 358 bore. Initial reports are great from the Shooters. I suspect those who jumped the gun, got some ammo and made their bore and reamer to match instead of waiting for the Specs to be official. A gamble that is now making it more confusing and now those barrels maybe the odd one out. One thing that has been over looked is , where did that odd base cartridge come from? We’ll it appears the 350 is actually a lengthened 9MM Winchester Magnum. Whyat

    1. avatar mark says:

      It is a .223 blank(button)only drawn twice, and not swaged down to make the .223 end. Same length, same pressure rating.. Per G&;A article (and/or American Rifleman)and quoting Winchester.
      Ohio has the most restrictive .357 rule. most others say .35 or larger with case length limits .

      1. avatar R.G. says:

        Iowa has the same restrictive .357 law on rifle bullet size. That, I heard is possibly going to be a problem here in Iowa. But also heard that the Winchester XP hunting round will be legal in Iowa because it states the size as .357 as the diameter of their rounds. Who knows the true facts of a states laws as being what they will actually go by. I bought a BCA upper in the 350 legend and instantly purchased the Winchester XP hunting round for the 350 legend but didn’t know the 150 gr. bullet I purchased would not chamber all the way into the bear creek arsenal rifle. It goes into the chamber about half way and just stops almost every time. I now have learned that the 180 gr. XP hunting round is supposed to work perfectly. So guess I will try the 180 gr. to see if they work correctly. If they don’t work right, then I guess I have a plinking rifle that I will not use to deer hunt here in Iowa…Best of luck with others who purchased the BCA 350 legend uppers expecting to deer hunt with it..Maybe should go to different manufacturer on the ammo I use for deer hunting. Guess that might be the way to go…

        1. avatar Rick James says:

          Randy the 350L is perfectly legal for deer hunting in Iowa. If your upper is not chambering the rounds it is a head space issue not a cartridge manufacture issue. I used the Win 150xp until it was too cold and lowered chamber psi too much to reset the trigger on a follow up shot(AR with a Shaw SS barrel). I then switched to Hornadays 170 and never had a problem again.

        2. avatar R.G. says:

          Rick James…It isn’t the head space that is causing the trouble. I checked head space and it is fine. The problem I am having is that the round will not even go half way and then bind when trying to line up with the chamber. So the bolt is moving only half way and when I slightly pull back on the charging handle and let go, it will go into battery almost every time when doing that. So there is a bind somehow that stops it from even getting the bcg to move half the distance it should go…

        3. avatar Joe says:

          That is likely just because you bought bca. Seems they have had issues with every cal they have put out.

  4. avatar TommyG says:

    The 350 Legend looks like a loser to me. I don’t see cartridge cost as a problem for hunting. Usually you are using 1 shot to get your game. I tend to use more rounds sighting in (which is a one time thing). I’d assumed it was a .358. We already got the 450 Bushmaster and 458 Socom if you want to use your AR lower to hunt.

    1. avatar clint s says:

      I would typically agree that a firearm used for hunting purposes may not see 100 shots in its lifetime, but the fact that this round (like the 450BM) was made to fit sporting rifles opens up a significantly larger group of customers. For the sporting rifle community, “per round” expense is the biggest driving factor.

      That then begs the question whether or not this round will be as popular as many of the other sporting rifle calibers since its development has been primarily targeting hunters. One question, last time I checked, states like ohio still have the 2+1 mag limitation, are we seeing this equipment being sold alongside the weapons?

      1. avatar Tony says:

        While Ohio does limit hunters to 3-rounds onboard any rifle, the magazine can be of higher capacity.

        Right now, Ruger and CMMG are selling 5 and 10-round magazines, any of which would be legal to use while deer hunting. Just don’t load more than 3 rounds on the gun. Te Warden will check!

        1. avatar Danny Allen says:

          the P MAG can be mod easily to 350 Legend the two ribs at the front need to be ground down a little so the rounds sit straight i mod 6 ten rounders for my two legend AR

        2. avatar Snakeman says:

          I found it easier to just buy some 5 round mags made by C Products Defense. Here in Michigan we are allowed 5 in a magazine and one in the chamber. Looks like a 10rd mag, but internally limited to only accept 5rds.

    2. avatar mark says:

      It is a winner for me. Same (basically)power as a 30-30, but 30-30 is illegal here. Just need new upper, or even just a barrel, magazine,and head space gauges. Cartridge price is about same as .223, so perfect for non loaders. Only issue is for reloaders, and it should be .358 so all states will be legal. If I lived in Ohio, I wouldnt buy the Hornadys , but only Winchesters.

      1. avatar triggerpull says:

        Why? I have both bullet components–the hornady’s mic in at .355–the winchesters the same or even a tad less.

        1. avatar R.G. says:

          I heard that Winchester stated that their 350 legend ammo is .357 on all their info about their hunting ammo and that was what is going to make their round legal here in Iowa. I didn’t know that just .stating your ammo is a certain size would make it legal but, this is what I heard they have done. I have a bear creed arsenal in 350 legend but immediately found out that the Winchester XP hunting round in the 150 gr. size WILL NOT CHAMBER in my upper. I have heard the 180 grain XP round WILL CHAMBER… so who knows..gotta try that round I guess or go with another manufacturer of ammo but then will it be legal here in Iowa using a ammo that hasn’t stated their rounds are in fact, a .357 size round…. I need to do more research on this I guess…don’t wanna go hunting and use something illegal….

      2. avatar Richard Cuttill says:

        Should be a great round in an AR for PDW or CQB use. For reloading for hunting it would be no great difficulty to swage some .358 hunting bullets down to .356. Takes less than 20 minutes to make 100 bullets once your press is set up. For high capacity magazines, any plastic 5.56 mag can be modified to use with .350 L, by just shaving the guide rails off the inside and making a small relief cut on the top front of the magazine. If this cartridge had been issued to troops in WWII instead of the .30 carbine, we’d still be using it today, and the 5.56 would’ve probably never been developed.

        1. avatar Rick James says:

          I have a 350 upper I made for my AR(only bought a shaw barrel), bullets are a nonissue factory 170 Hornadays fold up running deer like a pheasant. Internal damage done is very similar to 30/30. The plastic 30 5.56 mags dont work as the straight wall will nose up as they start going around the curve of the mag, then they dont feed. For hunting its easier to use 10 round cmmg’s – never had a problem feeding and easier to walk through timber. I did try using WIN 150 grain bullets and they dont make enough PSI to cycle the bolt all the way, I do have the gas block full open. I guess I need a different buffer, but with the good performance from the cheaper Hornadays Ill just stick to them.

        2. avatar triggerpull says:

          Lots of comments about using larger diameter bullets–which I’ve done after sizing them. You’re still a wildcatter when you do this, you don’t know for certain what the start pressures for those loads are. Just don’t be surprised when your rifle goes kaboom–which in fact did eventually happen to me (though the excessive headspace spec probably contributed to that). I’m going to have a barrel custom made for me with .358 groove so I don’t have to deal with this silliness any more.

  5. avatar Ahil925 says:

    The last cartridge I got excited for was .327 Federal and that never really took off. Never saw rounds priced at what I would consider “range” ammo prices and I don’t reload. Thus I never took the plunge. I liked the idea of a svelte 5 shot or “normal” sized 7 shot revolver but not enough to pay a premium on ammo.

    With regards to .350L, I don’t live in the Midwest, already have a 7.62×39, .308 Winchester, and a 5.56 rifle. I have no reason to get excited for it.

    1. avatar ChoseDeath says:

      Excellent points, but I did get on the .327 Federal Magnum train and liked it so much I bought another one. BADASS cartridge. Does what the .357 magnum does but with less recoil and extra rounds. Fucking loud though, lol.

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        I like the .327, but the comparisons to .357 only work with the lighter factory loads. Full power non +p .357 loads will get 750-800ft/lbs at the muzzle of a 6″ revolver. Only problem is none of the big factory ammo makers make a full power .357 load. But look closely and you’ll notice that none of those Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc. .357 loads are +p. Nothing against the .327 but the .357 is more badass than most people think.

        1. avatar LazrBeam says:

          It’s also more badass on hands and wrists, too. I’ll keep my .327 Fed Mags, thank you very much.

        2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Well yes, you can’t get around the laws of physics. Full bore .357 isn’t much fun if you don’t have at least 2 pounds of carbon or stainless steel to soak up the recoil. The .327 makes more sense in a lightweight snubby.

        3. avatar clints says:

          If a round is already a ‘magnum’, I’m not sure that +p is a thing (seems a little redundant). The next hottest round would be the 357 maximum. Though I will agree, the 357mag will do pretty much anything you want it to do.

  6. avatar Knute(ken) says:

    I cannot see any other reason for the strange bore diameter, other than for Winchester to keep it a proprietary round. If only they make a proper bullet, then all sales will be theirs. At least, until someone else invests in the tooling to produce similar bullets. Which likely no one will do until it becomes a big hit. Which isn’t likely to happen, due to the nature of proprietary products. With availability from only one source, no matter how good an idea might be, it always suffers from the limited sourcing.
    Like Weatherby magnum rounds. They are the kings of velocity, but the availability (and the high price that goes along with the limited availability) makes them a niche market. Exactly as the .300 Whisper was for JD Jones. Until AAC put SAAMI specs on it and created the .300 BLK. Now it’s popular, once the limited availability went away.

    1. avatar Mike says:

      At the risk of appearing a fan boy, which I am not, I will attempt to explain the 350 Legend as I understand it.

      #1 Legal for deer hunting in all straight walled states
      #2 Low recoil
      #3 Economical as compared to current offerings
      #4 Effective on White Tail up to 250 yrds
      #5 Easy for anyone to become proficient with due to platform dimensions and low recoil.

      The 350 Legend was designed to make the cut anywhere in the US for 250 yd Deer hunting. It has been proven to work very well on large deer. Over 30 bucks, (all large), were hunted and killed all with a single shot by a group testing this cartridge using the Winchester rifle. (YouTube Deer Cast) Ranges from 30 to 240 some yrds were reported. Most, including the 240 yrd kill, dropped right there and the one ones that ran maxed at about 80 yrds. This was using Winchester ammo. Hogs out to 250 are also dropped easily as seen on YouTube as well. The low sectional density does not seem to be a real world issue as long as you don’t try to shoot stem to stern, which is a piss poor shot anyhow. (IMO) Like the 30-30, most wounding is due to not getting both lungs and/or the heart.

      Ruger, Savage and Winchester all make rifles starting from the Savage Axis at $349 with a Weaver scope mounted and bore sighted. These are all available today in stores. Barrel lengths are available in 16, 18 and 22 inches and in youth stocks.

      AR uppers not included in this post because I don’t have an AR so have not done any research. But they are certainly available.

      The rifled slug guns were going for over $600 earlier this year. Ammo was three times the price of the 350 and the recoil much greater. The slug gun is quite a bit longer. I see no reason why anyone today would buy a dedicated slug rifle for deer hunting over this platform, which is most likely why Dunham’s has them on clearance now for $400 and change.

      As for ammunition availability:
      *Hornady is already making the proven Interlock bullet in 355 175gr for the 350 Legend.
      *Starline has 350 Legend brass and Hornady bullets are available for re-loaders today at Midway USA.
      *Winchester Power Points 150gr and 180gr bullets for reloaders are currently on BO at Midway but are on the market.
      *Federal produces 180gr hunting ammo for the 350 Legend.
      *Dick’s has 4 types of ammo from available today, Sept 25 2019.
      *Reloading dies are available for purchase today.

      Most people who post nonsense about using the 45-70, 375 Winchester, and bottle-neck or other established cartridge don’t realize that these rounds are not legal in all of these straight walled areas. Read this as “If you get caught your backside is going to become Bubba’s playground.” No thanks.

      My 45 Colt is sweet but for me a 80yr brush gun. Almost every ‘alternate’ established cartridge fails to check at least one of the boxes this round rifle was designed to fill. In this way it is in my estimation unique.

      This is is not a solution looking for a problem, it is a modern and well thought out answer to current legislation in straight walled states for the white tail hunter. Wish in one hand and bitch with the other but your still left dealing with reality.

      I have read that about 90% of all hunting in the US is white tail deer and most are taken within 100 yards. But I don’t know if either of this is true. No matter, a dedicated 250 yrd Deer/Hog gun is not in any way crazy.

      As a note I used a 450 Bushmaster to down a coyote and doe on the anterless hunt a few days ago. I have it sighted in for 0 at 175 yrds and this makes it close to a center vital hold from 0 to 225 yrds using my loads. I am slaying quart orange juice jugs at 225 yrds. For myself the 450 BM is a game changer. Although muzzle-loaders can get this kind of performance I personally prefer a bolt action rifle.

      I hope this helps someone trying to understand why Winchester made this round and I would be willing to bet the 350 Legend isn’t going anywhere, anytime soon. More states may adopt the straight walled laws making it more viable over a larger swath. At least several major manufacturers seem to believe in this project as demonstrated on how rapidly they have jumped on the band wagon and committed resources to producing ammo, rifles, barrels and other equipment.

      1. avatar 1168 says:

        The appeal for it is obvious, to me. I’m especially interested in subsonic use, because if you limit velocity to ~1,000fps, the best way to improve terminal performance is to increase diameter and weight. Additonally, there is no risk of accidental chambering in a 5.56 chamber like .300 Whisper. In fact, I was quite excited about it when it was first announced. However, I think Winchester made some critical errors in diameter and twist that will cause it to be a commercial failure.

  7. avatar Nate in CA says:

    I want to like this round, but it only makes sense if I can use inexpensive 357 bullets – there aren’t any cheap 355 rifle appropriate projectiles other than 147 grain options. Why am I getting the feeling this was a committee designed project?
    For no good reason I blame the millennials for this!

    1. Possible 🙂
      If Winchester would have had ammo available [ all bullet weights] when they announced it and released the specs, we would all be better off. In the end the 350 HITS HARD, much harder than the ballistics account for. It a winner in my opinion, a updated 351 in a lighter , handier carbine. Those 145 FMJ’s flatten out and makes quite a hole and dump alot of energy fast.
      The 357 AR crowd can attest to how well the cartridge works.

      1. avatar Nate in CA says:

        I think it’ll have some growing pains in an AR platform, but I could talk myself into a Ruger American Ranch rifle in .350 Legend.

  8. avatar billy-bob says:

    Meh.

    1. avatar Jake says:

      Brilliant! Thanks for the insight.

  9. avatar Mark H says:

    Cartridges designed to meet specific weird hunting laws for 3 states are extreem niche cartridges. The rest of us hunt deer with normal cartridges.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Mark H.,

      So, when your 10 year-old, 90-pound child wants to hunt for deer, do you set him/her up with your .30-06 Springfield rifle?

      Young hunters stand to benefit greatly from a lighter-weight rifle with substantially less recoil than “normal” rifle platforms. This platform fits the bill.

      Note:
      In order to have recoil levels that my child could handle, I started with a muzzleloader and 35 grains of powder which limited range to about 30 yards. As my child gained size and weight, I moved up to a rifle chambered in .44 Magnum shooting medium loads which limited range to about 100 yards. Some day, I may be able to move up to full-power loads in .44 Magnum (for a maximum range of about 150 yards) and then to .243 Winchester (for a maximum range of about 300 yards).

      Meanwhile, this new .350 Legend cartridge may be a single choice that works for small children all the way up to adults, especially children and adults of the female variety.

      1. avatar Hank says:

        Or just go with 30-30.

        1. avatar Andrew Lias says:

          Or .357 Magnum in a carbine, or .243 Winchester.

        2. avatar Joseph Quixote says:

          .243 for the win.

        3. avatar 1168 says:

          Or 6.5 Grendel if you desire AR compatibility. Or 5.56, which also works. Or any number of modestly recoiling cartridges.

      2. avatar Mark H says:

        I’d give the chid a .243 or maybe a .357 Lever gun honestly. Maybe a 6.5×55 Sweed if I had one with a short enough stock.

        1. avatar Mike says:

          In ‘straightwall’ zones the bottlenecks are out. In other words not in the running. Here is where the 450BM and 350L make good sense. A lever 44 mag or 45 Colt is nice but the 450 and 350 easily double the range. Ammo is about 1/2 that of using a slug rifle like the 220 or 212. Recoil out of a Ruger American is not bad.

      3. 6.8 in my AR. The stock is adjustable so any it fits any stature shooter.

      4. avatar Lonnie says:

        .223 Remington in a youth model Ruger American would be the go to here. It will knock a deer down at 200 yards with the appropriate round. It may run 100 yards but usually less. I have done so many times.

        1. avatar Mystic Redneck says:

          OK, but again you’re not able to use a bottlenecked .223 in many of these midwest states like MI, OH, IN, IA, etc. Personally I’m not a fan of a .223 for deer but certainly realize a lot of people are doing it successfully.

    2. avatar Jake says:

      Don’t speak about “the rest of us.” You don’t speak for anyone but yourself and maybe the people you know. I live in a state where I can use anything and I am still very interested in this cartridge. Maybe I should have checked with you first?

  10. avatar john says:

    “The PRC rifles use a .355 bore, which means 9mm bullets. Why not .357 or .358, which are more common to existing .35 caliber rifle rounds?”

    GREED

    1. avatar Jake says:

      Stupid answer. Just stupid.

  11. avatar El Duderino says:

    Reminds me of the airgunner issue (which is essentially identical). Most foreign made big bore airguns are for 9mm bullets (.355) instead of .357. No one really makes a non-jacketed 9mm heavy SWC or SWCHP, which are the best choices for these guns. There are American companies making .357 guns, but they tend to be much more expensive.

    I see the Ruger .350 Legend rifles in the local stores and shrug. No one is buying them here in the Pacific NW where we’re not case-dimension restricted. Some, like me, have a .450 because it’s a great way to get .45/70-ish performance from an inexpensive and lightweight bolt action gun.

  12. avatar Nate in CA says:

    Since this is very clearly a 9mm vs .45 debate, the only clear and correct answer would be to design a 10x43mm cartridge.

    1. avatar Mantitude says:

      This comment deserves a like, regardless of whether or not there is such a system in place here.

  13. avatar Mad Cow says:

    The Iowa DNR recently made a couple rulings specifically on this cartridge. Basically, they’re OK if the box says .357 (the legal minimum) even if the bullet diameters are smaller (like .355). If Hornady lists .355 on their box, it’s not legal in Iowa. There was a bill trying to clarify all of this that died during funnel week in the Senate…

    I was excited about 350 Legend because I could use it with my suppressor on a modern platform. I hope the kinks get worked out, but I think I’m going to forego building an upper this year. It’s not worth it just to try and get in on one of the 2 crazy weeks that Iowa gives you to hunt with them… Better make sure my muzzle loader is sighted in.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Hmm… what if it says ‘.350’?

      This could sink the cartridge fast if it gets banned on a technicality from a couple of these states. Might be a great opportunity for someone else to come out with a .358 based cartridge.

  14. avatar Ogre says:

    In my view, an adequate straight-wall cartridge has existed for a long time: the .38-55 Winchester. This round has lots of rifles to shoot it in, lots of options for handloading (not to mention factory ammo), and can be loaded up or down, depending on the needs of the shooter, to match or upstage this new round. There is no need for this proprietary .350 cartridge, except that the inventor didn’t have enough to do and got it latched onto by commercial companies.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Ogre,

      Ah, but there is a slight problem with .38-55 Winchester: the case is 2.085 inches long which exceeds the maximum allowable case length of 1.800 inches in states that restrict rifle cartridges.

      I see two more problems with .38-55 Winchester:
      (1) I have never seen ammunition on the shelf at any store.
      (2) I have never seen a .38-55 Win. rifle for sale at any store.

      1. avatar Nate in CA says:

        …and I have never seen a .38-55 chambered AR upper either.

      2. avatar Ogre says:

        I suppose you have to get into the cowboy action suppliers to find rifles and ammo for the .38-55 – Taylor’s and Cimarron both have lever rifles and single-shots in that caliber, and I’ve seen ammo on the shelves of a few LGS & at the local gun show – one just has to look for it. It can be mail-ordered, too. Not having AR uppers chambered in .38-55 might be a problem for some – plus the fact that it’s a rimmed cartridge, which might complicate its use in an AR magazine. But I think that the people who use .38-55s (and its contemporaries) walk a more traditional path with regard to hunting. If cartridge length is a problem (due to regulations), one might try a lever rifle or a single-shot in .44-40 or .45 Colt – with the right bullets (such as Hornady’s LeverRevolution), they’d be fine for deer out to 150 yards or so. IMHO, there is no need for a sub-nuclear magnum to hunt whitetail deer. Bears? Maybe.

  15. avatar Joseph Quixote says:

    This cartridge is just weird. Go to Chuck Hawks to get more information on it. They claims it’s more powerful than a 30-30 which is a fib. The AR focus at TTAG grows more and more tiresome.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      At best it’s comparable to the older .30-30 loads. Factor in modern flex tip bullets and even some of the more modern flat point bullets (Federal Fusion, e.g.) and the .30-30 is clearly a better option, other than from a legal standpoint.

  16. avatar Cloudbuster says:

    There are so many legal straight-walled choices in Ohio, I just don’t see the point. The straight-wall limitation only applies during deer season. Whitetail deer aren’t monsters. People have been killing them just fine with muzzleloaders and shotgun slugs for decades, and now Ohioans have access to Carbine’s in .357 magnum, .44 magnum, .45-70 and many other choices. The deer are dying just fine.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      The problem with muzzleloaders is that a lot of people do not want to deal with them. And the problem with shotguns is that they kick like a mule so a lot of people do not want to deal with them.

      Given that hunting enthusiasm and participation has been steadily dwindling for the past 40 years, any change that can help reverse that trend is a welcome change. And light-weight rifles shooting modest bullet weights at modest velocities is such a welcome change because they eliminate the “hassle” of muzzleloaders and greatly reduce recoil compared to shotguns.

      1. avatar Cloudbuster says:

        It’s like you read half of my post. There are a vast number of choices in easy-to-shoot straight-walled cartridges legal in Ohio.

        The one thing this cartridge isn’t going to be good for is newcomers. It requires them to buy a hard-to-find gun in a hard-to-find caliber.

        Or they could just buy a .357 magnum or .44 magnum rifle and be done with it.

        1. avatar mark says:

          A reputable maker has a full upper, with only a magazine needed to convert your MSR. BCG included, charging handle, ejection cover included. Price this week was $230……..I ordered a magazine or 2, and am ready to pull my pins when they come back in stock.
          In Michigan it is only an issue in bottom half of lower peninsula, and really makes no sense because i can hunt coyotes with my .223, or M1 Garand even. Just not in this area from Nov 15- 30

  17. avatar SilencerScott says:

    So how did the new SilencerCo XXXXXXX sound?

    1. avatar Aggie93 says:

      Most interesting part of the article that most missed I bet lol (not that the rest wasn’t interesting, I just have a passing morbid curiosity for the 350 legend)

      1. avatar SilencerScott says:

        I see it is blurred out now! Reveal and write up should be soon!

  18. avatar Hank says:

    I say work to change the stupid laws. These laws were clearly written for supporting gun control by harming easily obtained rifles. There’s zero facts to back up the “population density” bullshit that was the piss poor logic in these laws.

    1. avatar tsg says:

      Thank you Hank for asking the real question. If the area is unsafe because of potential damage/injury to population or livestock, then state so and prohibit the use of firearms. Or at least recognize the mitigation of damage by shot vs solid projectile, but to have a difference between necked-down and straight-walled, its just legislation for most likely the sake of political gain that doesn’t support, serve, or protect the general population.
      Read down the thread and see I’ve asked a similar question.

      1. avatar 2handsnot1 says:

        I’m pro second amendment and love to see guys getting whatever then what firearm wise. The law was not written with gun control in mind. Grew up in Iowa but have moved out west and have hunted here for several years. While I was hunting in Iowa it was shotgun only. The move to staightwall cartriges in Iowa was made a few years ago in an effort to give guys a cheap option to be more accurate while still limiting the effective range. If everyone was running around with 300 win mags in Iowa during opening morning you would 100% have issues with more houses, live stock, and potentially people. Opening morning in most places sounds like WWIII. The terrain is to flat with to little tree cover to allow every fudd to shoot high power especially considering that their his high hunter densities and a lot of people shooting. The other part that to me is more important is a conservation effort. Their is not doubt that Iowa is a destination for big whitetail and I feel that the fire arm restrictions are a big part of it. I can’t tell you have many deer I could of killed over the years if I had an effective range of 400 yards. The age class of deer would drop overnight if everyone could shoot common calibers. Just my two sense. I would love to hunt deer with a 6.5 creedmoor in Iowa but I would rather have more big deer running around and have to learn to be a better hunter and get within 200 yards.

        1. avatar Rick James says:

          whats the difference? coyote hunters can use 50 bmg if they want. along with pickups and cb radios. also the deer arent out on the flat open like they are in the hills in IA. this is my first hunt here with my 350. I am reaping the benefits of this more accurate round. 1 shot one 1 kill. I do hunt with a group so I have shot/tagged 4-5 deer per season. I feel this will be better for the animals because I know before with shotgun slugs it just poke and pray. I would say for every deer tagged one other ran off and died unclaimed. Slugs are not as accurate in real life like people claim.

        2. avatar Rick James says:

          What they should do is eliminate party hunts and let use use non semi-auto rifles in any caliber. I suppose this is possibly a test to see if we can handle centerfires and gradually approve more calibers. Win win for local gun shops.

        3. avatar 2handsnot1 says:

          Rick I got pretty long winded and I believe you misunderstood my point. I’m pro straight wall cartridges for the reasons you listed but am anti guys using 7 Mags. I like the limited distances of a shotgun but again hate the spray and pray accuracy of 99% of shotguns used to hunt in Iowa. Straight walls in my opinion is the best of both worlds. My comment was defending the 350 legend. Hunting out west you see what happens when everyone and their mom has a 300 Rum but only a few know how to actually shoot them. The main difference I see with coyotes is the volume. I image that if you added up the number of shoots taken while coyote hunted and compared them to the number of shoots taken deer hunting it would be drastic. 1 to 100 probably wouldn’t cover it. I also am not concerned with the welfare of the coyote population. What I don’t want to see is everyone in the state being able to shoot deer at 500 yards and dropping to age class of deer to that of Wisconsin. Try finding a 4 year old deer in Wisconsin its tough and the terrain of Wisconsin doesn’t allow for long shots. In your area of Iowa it may not allow for long shots but there is a large portion of Iowa where you could most certainly shoot deer at 500+.

        4. avatar Mystic Redneck says:

          2Hands – I agree completely. Probably not 1 in 1000 shots on yotes vs. deer, and as you stated we don’t really care if we have a 6 month old yote or a 4 year old yote in the truck, unlike deer. Lots of morons out there spraying lead in deer season, and allowing high powered centerfire rifles would only allow them to wound a lot more while also drastically reducing the quality of the herd at best, and put a lot of humans at risk at worst. The yotes would be happy though – lots of free meals for them!

    2. avatar Cowboy T says:

      Here in Virginia, we have “population density” claims, too in certain parts, especially parts of Northern Virginia. In some of those areas, they limit deer harvest to bow hunting, or in some other parts, shotguns. However, outside of those areas, anything from 243 Win and up is fine. The most common deer rounds here are .30-30 Win, 308 Win, .30-06, and .243 Win. The last three of those are effective past 400 yards. We also see plenty of .357 Mag and .44 Mag in levergun rifles. We don’t really see a lot of Anything Magnums for deer hunting around here, given that a “long” shot in this area is 150 yards, and the average shot is more like 70 to 80 yards.

      Personally, I agree that Winchester should’ve designed this cartridge for 0.358″. This .350 Legend cartridge looks to me a lot like a thinner version of the (still popular) .35 Remington, with similar performance. Bullets for .35 Remington would have been a good match for the .350 LGND. Matter of fact, those states should’ve specifically allowed the .35 Remington for that reason, if “population density” is their actual concern…but is it? Is that really their concern?

      It’s really up to the voters, folks. Legislators are generally made up of attorneys with political agendas, and the citizenry keep voting them into office. Sadly, they are getting the government that they’re voting for, so get your backsides to the ballot box and vote.

  19. avatar Andrew Lias says:

    “The .358 option would have been a huge benefit for everyone and I can’t think of a reason it wasn’t made to work except to corner a new market.”

    This is the quote that’s relevant. It’s utter BS that they didn’t chamber it where you could use .35 Remington bullets or cast .357 mag bullets for plinking.

    My interest went away, I have an AR pistol in .450 Bushmaster that will certainly not go to this caliber. That said I kind of enjoy saying I have a “poor man’s 460 S&W” too.

    1. avatar Andrew Lias says:

      Oh and people will just run the bullets in .357 they want to use through a .356 die. Just like they do with 450 Bushmaster.

  20. avatar Richard Taylor says:

    This is a cartridge designed to sell new rifles and for no other reason. For me the fact that it headspaces on the mouth of the case is reason enough to reject it. It is obviously intended for AR type platforms. If that wasn’t the case they would have used a rimmed case which would have provided positive headspacing.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Just curious, what cartridge wasn’t designed to sell new rifles?

      1. avatar Ronald Johnson says:

        lol true for sure

      2. avatar JackRyan says:

        ones that fire old ones

    2. avatar mark says:

      It uses .223 blank buttons, only drawn twice. and not swaged for neck. Current machines can do it easily and fast and ammo prices are about what .223 are. Cheap for them, cheap for us. Only issue is for states which legislate to 3rd decimal place.

  21. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

    I’d like to see a cartridge that splits the difference between .450 Bushmaster and .350 Legend, in the .40-.41 range. What I’d really like to see is a .41 Maximum with a half inch longer case over the magnum, which would qualify under the straight wall cartridge laws and would probably sell pretty well everywhere else in a slick lever gun.

  22. avatar GS650G says:

    I’ve taken deer with a. 44 mag pistol and a 12 ga shotgun. Both are effective. Killing deer isn’t rocket science requiring a special new bullet.

  23. avatar Perry says:

    I recently fired a .45-70 at the local range. (I meet the nicest, most polite people ever – at the range.) Oy!, what a cartridge! Sometimes, the best ideas happened 150 years ago and were then improved by smokeless powder.

    Doing the math, .35/.45-squared is 60%. That’s not nearly enough lead.

  24. avatar Brian says:

    I live in Iowa and will not be buying into the 350 legend. They made a few mistakes with this. Needs to be .358/.357”, needs to be rimmed (small one), and the sweet spot is going to be 180-200 grains (practice ammo needs to be this weight, not 145).

    Start over, fix the above problems, call it the 357 Legend, and I’ll take a Ruger American with a 20” mid to heavy barrel with go wild camo.

    1. avatar Rick James says:

      I full heartedly agree with fixing the dimensions. Thanks to your comment (before I bought one) I called down to the main IDNR office and the nice lady that answered said that it is now a LEGAL cartridge. this is as of 10-24-19

  25. avatar Andrew Lias says:

    I will also say that I would rather have a rimless .357 magnum so I can get my revolver converted for moon clips or use an R8 and have a modern take on a cowboy carbine/revolver setup. Maybe we’ll see a stretch frame .350 Legend out of this but I doubt it.

    1. avatar Cloudbuster says:

      .38 super and .30 carbine are rimless cartridges that bracket the high and low power ranges of .357 magnum. Why yet another carrtidge?

      1. I think the 357 comparison is getting carried away, the 360 Legend is hotter than the hottest 357 MAX. the 145 FMJ out of a 18″ barrel is a true 2300 fps.

      2. avatar mark says:

        We cannot use 30 cal in restricted states, or i would be using my National Postal Meter M1 carbine today for deer. in restricted area.

  26. I hunt with a 50 cal. in-line muzzleloader. There is not an animal in the North American continent that I can’t kill. I can tweak my powder loads to fit the occasion, and it will reach out to 200 yards. I have been hunting for 68 years, and have shot everything from deer to moose, and have never had to shoot over 130 yards. I only did that to see if I could do it. I’m a hunter not a sniper. I work to get inside 100 yards for the kill. I don’t need a 350 Legend or a wannabe AR style rifle. With my muzzleloader it is one shot one kill.

    1. avatar billy.hill says:

      Do you want a medal or something boomer? What if I told you I hunt deer with a custom made smokeless muzzleloader shooting .452 bullets over 3000 FPS and regularly shoot deer at over 400 yards… *mind blown*

      1. avatar J Honyoust says:

        No I don’t need a medal, my point was that I don’t have to buy a new rifle everytime one comes out. Nor do I have to try and impress someone with a $ 3000.00 smokeless powder muzzleloader that shoots 400 yards. If you knew how to hunt you wouldn’t have to shoot 400 yards or waste all that money on a rifle that you can’t hunt in all the states.

        1. avatar Rick James says:

          What is your address? I would like to mail your cookie. Im really surprised you dont just stalk down the animal and beat it to death with a club.

    2. avatar Ronald Johnson says:

      looks like this guy doesn’t like boomers and earlier. Sad for him. He lost the whole concept of hunting

  27. avatar Adambomb286 says:

    When this was announced I thought it was pretty cool because I thought it would use commonly available components. I guess not so much. I always thought those laws were strange, in WV we can hunt deer with pretty much anything that isn’t rimfire or shot.

  28. avatar skoon says:

    What does this do that a 20 gauge rifles slug gun cant?

    1. avatar Gary says:

      Shoot flatter and farther with less recoil.

      1. avatar Rick James says:

        *accurately. I have hunted 20 years with a 20 gauge.

  29. avatar turkey_freek says:

    There is much to like and dislike about this round. I live in Michigan and have 6 kids 14 and under whom I plan to introduce to deer hunting. Recoil was my main reason for purchasing an upper. My oldest, who is 14, can obviously handle his 20 gauge. As for the other kids, this round peaked my curiosity. I just received all the parts to build the upper, and plan on doing so this weekend. Our shots will be taken at a max distance of 150 yards, and most at 100 or less. I am hopeful that this will be a useful rifle for my kids, but time will tell after this deer season.

  30. avatar richard ellison says:

    i don’t know why they don’t make them like 22 rimfire short and long length rounds don’t cut them down leave them full length make both might be fun and good

  31. avatar Davesnothere says:

    The parent case for the .350 Legend is the .223 Rem. All though I haven’t seen the SAAMI specs, I assume the base diameter is the same .376. Case neck dimensions for the .357/.38 spl is .379. Case neck diameter for various .35 cal rifles range from .384 – .388. Possibly the .357/.358 bullets might be too big?

    1. avatar Pepprdog says:

      Actually the 350 Legend is a stretched out .380acp cartridge.
      Look at the specs and if you get a chance match a 380 to the legend. The bases are identical as is the diameter.
      I did a visual accidentally thinking the pistol case was a 9mm. Couldn’t believe it😊

      1. avatar Whyat says:

        The 9MM Winchester Mag appears to be the parent case, look a the specs although its base may have been from the 380. The SAMI specs are available for everyone to see so its odd so many people make so many comments without looking first. The spec is for 357 bullets, the throat and case mouth are the same spec as the 357 MAX. All that being said , it is very easy to shoot and all appear very accurate, not to mention the noise level is very tolerable.

  32. avatar Gary says:

    Personally I don’t think bullet diameter is an issue with the 350L. Most people DON”T reload. They are going to buy the Winchester white box ammo to shoot on the range and factory hunting ammo to hunt with, period.

    1. avatar Andrew says:

      It will limit other manufacturers’ willingness to get on board, which will limit ammo and rifle availability. And there may end up being manufacturing infighting that will result in a “spec 2” chamber, resulting in most manufacturers downloading to the lowest common denominator.

      All of this results in a .327federal. Dying. No matter how good it is.

      1. avatar Richard Cuttill says:

        What ammo maker doesn’t load 9mm? Also, most .357 bullets will work just fine as they are.

    2. avatar Rick James says:

      Very true Gary unless they F up like lets say the 6mm Rem. Then Andrews will completely hold true

  33. avatar Snakeman says:

    Been looking for a 16″ 350 Legend AR barrel of late. Most all that I found are listing muzzle threads at 1/2-28. Really! Why not the standard .30 cal 5/8-24. How many .223/5.56 muzzle devices that are made for suppressors will accept a .355 bullet? All of my SICO ASR’s will work on the 350 Legend, as they are factory bored to .375 (3/8″)

    1. avatar Richard Brown says:

      Midway has 16″ AR Stoner barrels with carbine length gas ports an 5/8″-24 muzzle for $125. Good luck!

      1. avatar Snakeman says:

        Ended up with a 18″ SS, 5R rifling barrel from MOS-TEK. Their barrels have 5/8-24 threads. Ran 40 rounds developing the gas system, buffer and spring. Now 100% reliability. Start grouping test soon. Got to be ready for November 15th.

  34. avatar Hunter297 says:

    I am no fan of 350 Legend but understand in states midwest why they would buy and use it. I understand why some like it = modern state legal version of a 35 Rem. If I lived midwest, I would get a bolt gun Ruger American rifle, go wild camo in 350 legend. It gives a little more velocity, low power optic mounting. Any other states = 35 Rem Lever Marlin for a woods gun.

  35. avatar Greg says:

    .327 how many AR’s are in this Ammo? Does anyone make a barrel or mag for this hot ammo? I do not think so.

  36. avatar Steve Lopez says:

    I bought a Ruger Compact Ranch in 350 just because I didn’t have one. I’m quite happy with the performance but not choosing a.358 projectile was a disappointing, irritating big mistake.

  37. avatar Dean says:

    I have two 300 blackout uppers. For sure one of them is going to get swapped to 350 legend. I built an AR pistol to keep handy for bears. It’s easier to handle in the camper than a 20g shotgun. The 300 BO is horribly loud in a 10″ barrel. 556 is ridiculous loud in a pistol. The 350 legend may just be the perfect AR pistol round. If it catches on I’ll ditch the 300 BO completely. I never really liked it, it was just the least obnoxious in an AR pistol.

    Ironically the 300 BO is not deer legal in Colorado in a rifle, but makes the cut in a pistol. This 350 Legend will be deer legal in both here, but I don’t see that as any real advantage since we can use 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. But out here, bolt guns rule. I’m not trading in my 30-06 for an AR for deer…..

    If Kel Tec makes a 20gauge KS7 I may convert my ARs back to 556……

  38. avatar Pepprdog says:

    Let’s try to clear up a couple points about the 350 Legend.
    Actually the 350 Legend is a stretched out .380acp cartridge.
    Look at the specs and if you get a chance match a 380 to the legend. The bases are identical as is the diameter. Only difference is length.
    I did a visual accidentally thinking the pistol case was a 9mm. Couldn’t believe it😊
    In our gun shop in Southern Ohio, we can’t get enough Ruger 450 Bushmasters or 350 Legends. (Not that we sell a lot)
    Both are quite well suited for deer hunting within the normal distance of out to 100yards around here.
    The Legend has a couple advantages. Reduced recoil is a huge advantage and it’s extremely accurate. Most tests show near .5MOA and the legend is a lot cheaper to shoot. Lighter to carry too.
    Will it succeed? Who knows……..

  39. avatar Tim S says:

    Lots of questions about why the lower caliber (.355 not. 358)?

    I come from a background of manufacturing and machining. Any time you can take an existing machine and only slightly modify it or the processes it performs, there is a time and cost savings. 9mm/.355 is one of the most commonly produced bullets. Add length for a higher weight and change the composition so that it’s a power point instead of a hollow point. Voila, you have a rifle bullet produced by a machine that made handgun bullets earlier that day. That is why the designers also started with the .223 case. Change the die on your. .223 brass and, Voila, you now have a straight wall case with more volume and a higher caliber.

    Designers had the goal of a certain performance. They looked around at what they had and reached their goal with minimal investment. The savings they passed on to the customer.

    I was thinking of buying a 35 Remington, but hesitate because of ammo choices/availability. 350L solves that problem because of their design process: they use common/cheap sub components.
    If anyone makes a lever action in 350L, I’ll buy myself one and then buy each of my boys one!

  40. avatar TSG says:

    So, I’m still struggling with the hunting laws that “allow” straight wall ammo in shotgun only areas. Please tell me why this would exist? Why would any cartridge of any caliber be considered only when not necked down? I mean 300 blackout has less collateral or downrange damage possibilities than a .350L or .450BM for that matter so I can’t imagine it being that type of rationale. Could it?

    1. avatar Tim S says:

      In general, straight neck cartridges are not high velocity, hence not long range. In areas more densely populated, it’s better to be sure that the round will not travel very far out of sight line and endanger a house that the hunter was unable to see

  41. avatar Waterboy says:

    If you are not an avid reloader you likely do not know this but one can easily have an infinite supply of custom .355″ rifle bullets made from any .358″ bullet you choose. It is very easy to push a jacketed .358″ bullet through a “LEE .358″ cast bullet sizer”. Instantly you have a special .355″ rifle bullet. I actually have done custom .401″ jacketed rifle bullets up to 300 grs. (for use in the .401 WSL) from .41 Magnum and .405 Winchester bullets done in a like manner. That large a size-down does require a lite lube and a little bit of pressure. But the concept I’ve used thousands of times.

    You might do well to research the .351 WSL rifle in a study of the .350 Legend. A cartridge and carbine made from 1907 – 1957 that was a very popular round for hunting, police, and even some early military use. It shot a 180 gr. .352″ bullet (I make from .358″ and using a custom sizer) at some 1900-2000 fps. History repeats itself again.

  42. avatar Hog Hammer says:

    A couple weeks ago I got in some .358″ Speer Hot Core 180 gn and sent them thru my .356″ Lee sizer die and life is good. I have only shot half a box of factory 180 gn ammo but this resized boolet in Starline brass is the nuts. Like many of you I was against this 350 Legend thing in the worse way early on to and wanted nothing to do with it cuz I’m a 450 Bm fan and have been since they first came out. Then my buddy wanted a 350 Legend cuz he’s almost 70 now and has become recoil sensitive or so he thinks but i can respect that. So i tell him to wait till i study up on it more which i did and said ok it seems like a little 250 yard sledge hammer so go get ya one. He soon brings it to me to set up and dial in after a good cleaning. Next day I got one to and I’m not looking back. In fact i already have a new barrel to convert an AR 223 upper over to it. That gun along with my 450 BM’s will be going hog hunting down south every year. My great nephews will enjoy that 350. I generally don’t gun hunt deer in my straight wall state because to many people go out on opening day of gun season who have zero business using a firearm of any kind. So I’m mainly archery here but if anyone doesn’t like the 350 Legend just don’t buy one and go back to bed. So many who hate this 350 just don’t get it. Its about straight wall states, recoil and economy. Yes I agree that it should have been bumped up 2k and made .358″ capable because they would still have a tapered case but it isn’t. But there’s a way around that so its all good. And btw, its best to resize a bonded bullet but resizing just 2k on the Speer Hot Cores worked so good you cant even tell by looking at them that they were bumped down.

  43. avatar Ralph W Green Jr says:

    Trip Report. I just returned from Michigan where I used a Savage 110 in .350 Legend (Winchester 150 gr)to take 2 large does. Both shots were at about 75 yards broadside. Double lung on both, clear pass through. One dropped at the shot and the other staggered 10 yards.

    My home is Ohio, so I was testing the caliber prior to our season. I am using this weapon caliber combination for one reason; it is legal in Ohio. I am 70 years old, retired US Army, hunt multiple states every year. This weapon caliber combination just works; accurate, no recoil, and a silent killer.

    However, do not shoot 145 gr rounds on the range and think you can swap the 150 grain and bingo I have zero. NOT! I originally zeroed with the 145 gr to be 2 inches high at 100 yards. Shot 150 gr to check zero. 6 1/2 inches high and 6 inches right! Final zero must be with the cartridge that you will hunt with.

    1. avatar Hog Hammer says:

      Glad to see some kill feedback. Glad your driving home the “because its legal in Ohio” because so many 357 Maximum fans seem to be offended because its so similar. Thanks for your service and good luck in Ohio,

    2. avatar Bruce says:

      Ditto. I’m a 68-YO retiree in NE Ohio. Used to live and hunt in states without restrictions (west Texas and the Hill Country mostly), but recently sold my .243 and 7mm-08 and bought a Ruger American Ranch in 350 Legend. While I mostly hunt archery season with traditional tackle, I wanted the option for the short gun season here. Factory hunting ammo is readily available and reasonably priced, although I prefer to develop and tailor loads specific to my weapons. Unfortunately, the 350-specific bullet selections for reloading are slim now and in short supply, so I may look into resizing some .357 and.358 projectiles.

  44. avatar Chris L Grome says:

    I live in Commiefornia, I bought this caliber for several reasons: ammo is cheaper than 30-30, smack coyotes, deer, hogs, and a damn good choice for a light weight scout rifle for self defense.. and possibly Black bears.. Ruger American compact 16” is lighter than an AR or levergun.. i got 10 round mags.. caliber out does 44 mag,45 colt , .357 leverguns.. Its perfect.. if you need more than this, get 450 BM.. it will take down grizzles, moose, and very large fat humans, crack-addicts, heroine heads, and whole lot more..oohh! almost forgot , ammo is cheaper than .357 mag, 44 mag, 45LC. I see advantage all over this.. Cant wait till this comes out in a Ruger PC carbine! Yeah buddy!

  45. avatar Geoff says:

    I bought the BCA 350 Legend upper a few weeks ago. Works fine with both the Winchester ammo and reloaded Winchester cases with Hornady 170gr SP .355″ bullets and with new Starline brass. What bugs me is the 1:16 twist rate because Winchester sells 265gr. Super Suppressed Subsonic ammo and it will not stabilize in anything but a 1:10 or faster twist. Guess what? Nobody makes a 1:10 twist 350 Legend barrel.
    Even a 200gr. (which doesn’t exist, yet) subsonic needs a 1:13 or faster twist. I ran a stability calculator for various weights and BC and muzzle velocities with a 1:16 twist barrel and the result were disappointing unless the bullet stayed supersonic.

    1. avatar Whyat says:

      Calculators are great , BUT. our experience with over 30 bores especially is that they have little to do with the the real world. I have not found any of the heavier bullets to fire as yet for the 350 Legend but I suspect it will be fine. My experience is that 35 caliber rifles [35 Whelen and 1 in 15 twist especially] can do quite well with a slower twist than the charts say will work. Best to shoot some before making claims.

  46. avatar Chris L Grome says:

    Guys why are you fussing over bullet sizes and heavy bullets and twist rates? if you dont like what the 350 legend offers, then get a damn 450 bushmaster! be done with it.. Your waisting valuable shootin time.. Dont be so caliber myopic that you limit yourself ..

    1. avatar Cowboy T says:

      Hi Chris,

      I think it’s because of the reality of the situation with rifle bullets and handloading. The .350 LGND, as a concept, has the potential to be a good and popular round. It really does. Heck, I like the concept! Rifle bullets for the .35 Remington (0.358″) would be excellent for this application. For range practice, 357 Magnum bullets are popular for 0.358″ rifles. Winchester could’ve taken advantage of that existing infrastructure. Unfortunately, they did not do that, and we’ll see how that plays out in the marketplace.

      Looking back through history, in a free market, rounds get popular due to one of three ways.

      1.) The military forces use them (.30-06, .308 Win, .223Rem/5.56NATO, 9mm Para, .45 ACP, .45 Colt).
      2.) The new cartridge turns out to be just that good and versatile (e. g. 7mm Rem Mag). This is relatively rare.
      3.) Handloaders.

      That third one matters a lot. The .25-06 and 7mm-08 both got popular due to handloaders. Same for the .357 and .44 Magnums. Matter of fact, the popular .300 Win Mag got created due to first handloaders (.30-338 wildcat), then Norma legitimized it with the .308 Norma Mag, which finally prodded Winchester into releasing their version. Unless you’re a military cartridge, you’re probably going to be depending on handloaders for popularity. Handloaders have 0.358″ rifle bullets for the .35 Remington already in existence. They’re already here. Winchester appears to have copied the .357 AR wildcat, but “reinvented the bullet wheel” to make you go to them. They should’ve just legitimized the .357 AR as is and been done with it. Being a handloader, I’d probably just stick with the .357 Magnum and a 16-20″ levergun in those restrictive areas and not bother with this new .350 Legend. But we’ll see what the market says.

      I think that’s why you’re seeing so much talk about bullet size.

      – T

  47. avatar Knot head says:

    The legend looks like a suppressor gun to me , (not right in head , I know) but copy Russians w/ a 260+ grain bullet & it’s a 9×39. I think that’s why .355 bot .358.

  48. avatar EDDIE Joe HOBSON says:

    Almost blew my gun up and hornady said too bad!

  49. avatar Flintlock717 says:

    I just got a used Ruger No. 3 in .223. Will be building into a 350 legend. Using a Green Mountain .358 14 inch twist barrel. Purchased Pacific .358 chamber reamer. I want to be able to use .358 bullets without the hassle or controversy. I guess you could say it will be something new and different to experiment with at the range. Just finished a sharps 1874 in .307 Winchester. It shoots great! Just like doing things different from others. I have enjoyed reading the discussion on this subject. It just goes to prove that everyone has a different way of looking at things.

    1. avatar triggerpull says:

      Sounds like another attempt at “doing it right.” I’m very interested, I’ve been waiting around for KAK to reintroduce their version of the same thing but it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen. Good luck and keep us posted!

  50. avatar Ozomataz Buckshank says:

    Yea… I’ve used and abused guns my entire life. I have owned and shot an ar 350 for about a million rounds. (The cheapest prebuilt one I could find) A lot of you are being waaaay too technical. Maybe you don’t know what you’re doing? Never once in my 34 years have I ever thought of the irrelevant BS that many of you are speaking of… :-/

  51. avatar Earl says:

    Bravo Man! I haven’t seen a writer take it to ground like you did on the .350 Legend in a long time. Prior to your article I’ve heard and read a lot of smoke and mirrors stuff, what I gathered was the public and some pretty serious amateurs myself included (local folks I refer to) have been a bit hazy on the “so what.” My first thought was a blown up .357 magnum, not even close. Then I thought a whole new rifle cartridge and rifle, a sleek classy smaller .35 caliber rifle something better (arguably) than the .35 Remington, couldn’t have been more wrong. Then I thought PMC hijacked the whole thing to take the project over so they could make it a metric design, nothing more than an AR15 spitting out 9mils, might be on to something. I’m a reloader too, and I have never worked with a cartridge that has a – of .003 up and -..003 down. The common wisdom is you do not load .357 mag bullets in a .9mm (.355 or less)! There’s no reason to load .355 bullets in a .357 case if you want to hit anything. Back to “so what”…..gives? Is it just another 9mm a fraud at that, or is it a .357 magnum a fraud at that? Maybe instead of Legend we should call it the .350 Fraud perpetrated by some of shooting royalty and thieves at at a gun shop near you!

  52. avatar Earl says:

    Mr. Shank,

    Over a million rds fired even at….well, you have a shooting budget and time to be envied. Mr. Shank this what we do after a surgery when we’re laid up and can’t even fish, but I love your enthusiasm sir!

  53. avatar Earl Ingalls, Special Agent (ret) says:

    Mr. Knot head,

    Do you have a theory the 350 Legend is made for official purposes and the commercial efforts are just gravy? HHmmm at first I thought not, but one can make an argument. Let’s look at the real bullet and grove diameter .355 or 9mm oh boy more 9mm “stuff.” While reading the article above about PMC getting the first reamers my gut turned before I could finish the thought my fear was PMC will take this project over and it will be a boon to the NATO military industrial complex. Of course I was wrong, PMC didn’t hijack the 350 Legend: Winchester gave it to PMC, and the work, and maybe jobs to PMC. If Winchester truly intended for the .350 Legend to be a .357 project then why are the first reamers cut to .355? How long has the 350 whatever its called been around in the government inventory, any chance it’s in field testing to replace the 5.56? I think I’ll reserve the retirement fixed income I earned in 34 years serving this country for American projects made in American calibers and wildcats in American factories, and American men and women. Looking down my shelves at the Winchester SAAs and lever guns, American guns, I wonder (give it to PMC) how could you?!

  54. I’ve just completed a 350 legend build! Bear Creek complete upper, Strike Industries fixed stock and parts kit, Anderson lower, hand polished trigger and springs. Leupold 1.5×4 scope n Monstrum mount! Finished price $674.
    Sub-moa @100yrds with Winchester Deer Season XP 150 gr. That’s all I know! Gun weight 7lb.

  55. avatar Curtis says:

    I’ve been building AR’s as a hobby for only a short time and I also have just started reloading. The only bullets my local store had was 9 mm 115gr xtp’s. All I am using the 350Legend build for is shooting paper or steel but I’m not sure if I can use these bullets for reloading because I can’t find any load data for a bullet that light. It’s a .355″ bullet . Does anyone know if I can even use them?

  56. avatar Ron Christon says:

    Although you referred to young shooters you didn’t bring up old shooters like me. I am 72 years old and wanted an ar good for hunting deer and hogs in Florida not the Midwest. I built a 350 legend with a Faxon 20” gunner barrel, GemTech 15” skelonitized rail and mft minilamist stock with a leupold 2×7 firedot scope and came in at 7.3 lbs for a great shooting rifle. Didn’t see anything on my first hunt but didn’t get worn out carrying it all day

  57. avatar JD says:

    BIG PROBLEM WITH 350 BUILDS – HELP? Two identical 350 builds and have a similar problem of not chambering some ammo, but chambering other ammo fine. When feeding Winchester 350 145 FMJ, they both chamber every time, Using the Hornady 170 neither ever chambers. The cartridges get picked up by the bolt and the bolt stops 1/4 closed with the bullet missing the chamber. Sometimes the bolt will stop 3/4 but the forward assist is of no help seating the cartridge fully. I built two 350’s and both exhibit the identical problem, first using BCA barrels and high-quality NiB BCGs. Changed to Wilson Match grade stainless barrels on both, still the same problem. I’m using 350 magazines. So, the evidence suggests it is the ammo. Winchester states .357 diameter and Hornady states .355. We know if it chambers .357 it will chamber .355. Chambers 145 grain, not 170 grain. Any clues, or anybody a good enough GunSmith to make the problem go away so I can use hunting ammo and not plinking ammo.

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